/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/05/03/#ubuntu-devel.txt

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=== dieman finally gets around to fai for hoary.
diemandoing my first install.12:04
diemanbarely had to change much from warty.12:04
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spo0nmanis anyone doing a package of gaim-vv? 12:31
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lifelessare there stats around on package counts for hoary - size of ujniverrse, supported etc12:57
ajmitch_apt-cache stats shows some values12:59
ajmitch_doesn't split it by component though12:59
ajmitch_you could always use grep-dctrl for that :)12:59
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lifelessheh my machinbe has debian repos too - not entirely usefl:[01:00
Kamionuse grep-dctrl on selected files in /var/lib/apt/lists/01:03
lifelessok. pity there isn't a page somewhere stats.ubuntu.com or something ;)01:03
jordihey Kamion01:04
Kamionmorning01:05
jordisigh, I wish I was there.01:05
carlosjordi: the conference is next week, you can join us :-)01:07
jordiwell, no. :)01:08
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jordicarlos: but feel free to ask Mark if I can still. I can arrange stuff now. Workload is low now here.01:08
jordiBut I couldn't know that 3 weeks ago.01:08
jordiheh, I know it's impossible, but anyway.01:09
carlosjordi: I leave tomorrow01:09
carlosjordi: If you are able to find a flight that it's not too expensive... :-P01:10
jordicarlos: hrm. I have no ticket. :)01:10
jordicarlos: where do I search? :)01:10
carloslol01:10
carlosdude, you need to travel more often01:10
jordithanks for the reminder, Mr. Conference01:10
Lathiat heh01:14
jordihmm, a miracle01:21
jordi 881   + Apr 21 To jordi@sindom (  39) New Norwegian Bokmaal PO file for `nano'01:21
jordiactually no, it's the Czech and a few other translations which hasn't been updated in ages.01:23
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mkdemdz, mdz_, you here by any chance?01:26
mdz_vaguely01:28
mkdemdz_, i have a quick question about the idea of a documentation upload to hoary01:29
mkdei understand there are language pack updates going in, and we have also added our stuff to Rosetta, so we wondered if there was any possibility of uploading with translations in new languages, if and when they become available.01:29
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mkdemdz_, have i asked the question in the wrong place? if so, just lemme know who to ask it to :)01:40
mdz_mkde: it isn't outside the realm of possibility to release updates with new translations of documentation01:57
mdz_mkde: assuming that the package contains _only_ documentation01:57
mkdemdz_, thats what I like to hear :)01:58
mkdemdz_, the only updates would be languages, the original documentation is frozen and wouldn't change01:59
mdz_mkde: at some point in the future, we should discuss integrating documentation translations in language packs02:01
mkdemdz_, yeah that is a dream to pursue02:01
mkdemdz_, i understand very little, you need to talk to enrico of course, but afaik there might be difficulties that the language packs don't really deal with documentation, but with interfaces02:02
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mdz_mkde: the current language packs deal with gettext translations.  it is possible to translate documentation using similar mechanisms, though it may be that a different approach would make more sense02:05
mkdemdz_, would be cool to pursue the idea at some stage02:06
KosaiMaybe I can stick a font question in here.  Hoary doesn't seem to bundle any fonts that can render Japanese Hiragana.  (But does bundle Korean and Arabic.)02:06
mkdemdz_, so shall we come back to you when we actually have some new translations and have tested to make sure everything builds?02:11
toresbeis the Ubuntu /etc/debian_version supposed to be "3.1"?02:13
mdz_mkde: contact me when you have a package ready to upload02:17
mkdemdz_, thanks muchly02:17
bluefoxicyum02:24
bluefoxicyethereal as root asks for root's password02:24
bluefoxicyinstead of mine.02:24
Keybuktoresbe: what else would it be?02:25
toresbeKeybuk: I'm not sure02:26
Keybukthat's the same as unstable02:27
toresbenm, it was solved in two tosses of furniture and a punch to the face in another channel02:27
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dobwancan someone point me at an esc/p (Epson Standard Code for Printers) language reference? I want to dump a 80 column wide print out landscape 2 columns wide.02:34
zuldobwan: thats kind of a #ubuntu question but check google as well02:35
dobwanzul I've tried google I figured I go to the source of knowledge02:39
dobwanzul, I'll try the cups devel people they must have the knowledge, thanks02:41
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Kamiontoresbe: about the only other thing we could sensibly do would be to remove that file; however, we felt that leaving it there would be better because tools that look at those kinds of files to figure out how to interact with the system will then interact with Ubuntu as if it were Debian, which will generally be reasonable02:47
toresbeKamion: Yeah, true02:47
toresbeKamion: All the other Deb-derived distros maintain the file02:48
Kamionwe have lsb-release for more accuracy02:48
Lathiatuh all libc6 upgrade02:48
Lathiatbrace for impact02:48
KamionLathiat: changelog doesn't look particularly bad02:49
Lathiati'd hate to be the maintainer02:49
KamionLathiat: anyway, you're upgrading over *this* network? ;-)02:49
Lathiatbe paranoid you'll screw someones system up bad02:49
LathiatKamion: whats wrong with that?02:49
Kamionslow02:49
Lathiatpfft im getting 110K/s02:49
Lathiati only get 50 at home!02:49
Lathiati thought you were goign to say someone might trojan my packages02:50
Lathiatand i was going to say tahts what gpg signing is for :)02:50
Lathiati guess elmo coudl trojan my packages or soemthing :)02:50
Lathiatmm evolution install is broken, bugger.02:52
Lathiateverytime something breaks it happens to be the thing i want at the time :)02:52
toresbeCrap. My Ubuntu disk died. Back do debian sid on my 18-gigger until I manage to find a disk02:52
KamionLathiat: welcome to breezy02:53
LathiatKamion: yeh i know :)02:53
=== toresbe is buying a SATA disk
toresbeYay breezy02:53
Lathiatat least gaim is fixed now02:53
Lathiatjust need a working mono and installable evolution and i'll be happy again :)02:54
=== Lathiat wonders if the maintainers of either of those packages are at LCA and can be bribed with free beer
zulthe bribe will probably work02:54
Lathiatyeh, just need said maintainers02:54
Lathiati dont think tseng is here02:55
Lathiatwonder who does evo02:55
Lathiattakuo kitami, no idea who that is02:55
crimsunseb does it in ubuntu, doesn't he?02:55
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tsengLathiat: i dont drink alcohol, sorry02:59
Lathiattseng: are you at lca?03:00
tsengno03:00
tsengill be at udu next week03:00
Lathiatah03:00
Lathiati wont , bugger 03:00
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jdubhrm03:16
jdubwho's running breezy?03:16
Riddelljdub: you do mailing lists yes?03:17
jdubyeah03:17
Riddelljdub: I'm getting admin e-mails about kubuntu-bugs but I never got a password for it03:17
jdubahar03:18
jdubi can reset it03:18
bluefoxicyquestion:  is snort in breezy compiled with --enable-inline (./configure --enable-inline)?03:35
Kamionapt-get source snort, find out :)03:40
Kamionif it is, it'll be in debian/rules03:40
bluefoxicyif not?03:45
lifelessLathiat: change your flights ;)03:46
toresbeit won't.03:46
bluefoxicyKamion:  it's not03:46
bluefoxicy:(03:46
toresbebluefoxicy: then apt-build?03:47
bluefoxicytoresbe:  heh.03:47
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Lathiatlifeless: yeh i dunno if i can04:07
Lathiatim also lackign in accomodation04:07
Lathiatand money to eat for the week04:07
Lathiatmmm gconf backends look fairly trivial to write04:07
jdubLathiat: :-)04:07
jdubLathiat: was just pinging kris to ask him about it04:07
Lathiatwas just looking at the bdb and xml ones04:07
Lathiatlooks like it coudl be hacked up rather easily04:08
jdubLathiat: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10792604:08
Lathiatapparently gconf hurts gnome session load times04:08
Lathiatany idea on the truth/stats of that?04:08
jdubnot hugely04:08
Lathiatnot having schemas in ldb could help a bit here04:09
Lathiatjdub: has anyone done any work at profiling gnoem startup to see what most of the time is spent doing? thatd be interesting04:10
ccwe talked about ldb as a gconf replacement, didn't we, ages ago jdub ?04:10
Lathiati mean it seems to be I/O bound just watching my hard drive light, but what its loading etc would be interesting04:10
ccwell, not replacement, but putting gconf into ldb...04:10
jdubcc: tdb, from memory04:11
ccjdub: erps, yeah, tdb. sorry. and it was a good idea then ;-)04:11
jdubldb gives you the ldap backend passthrough bonus04:12
cchmm, time to think about this further. if gnome 3 is going to be massive changes ;-)04:12
jdubthis is 2.x-able04:12
Lathiatyeh04:13
Lathiateveryone needs to stop smoking the omg 3.x crack :)04:13
Lathiat3.x imo is for stuff like major changes to the way the desktop works physically04:13
ccjdub: i'll give it a go *as in take a look)04:13
jdubcc: chat to Lathiat too :)04:14
Lathiatyeh i was just looking at it04:14
Lathiatgconf backends don't seem overly hard to do04:14
ccyeah, okay, lets do that Lathiat 04:14
cclunch04:14
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lifelesscctry tdb04:57
bluefoxicyhttp://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/19/1849215&from=rss  <-- in Ubuntu, it works by clicking "Printing" in the administration menu and double-clicking "add a printer"04:57
bluefoxicyobviously these people haven't yet realized that Red Hat is the ass of the Linux community, because every "where is it" I've seen appear on Slashdot seems to be centered around Red Hat's Fedora Core, while I just think "Now I KNOW I saw that in Gentoo and Ubuntu. . . ."04:58
bluefoxicyanyway, sleep.04:58
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infinitySince when does gcc refuse to link -lstdc++ (and should it)?06:51
infinityOh, nevermind.  <smack forehead>06:52
infinitygcc-4.0 -lstdc++ would try to call link using g++-4.0, which we explicitly don't want.06:52
infinity(Or should it?)06:54
crimsunright, you'd have to b-d on libstdc++6-4.0-dev06:54
crimsunI ran into that a few days ago06:54
crimsunhmm, there was work a while back in Sid that was supposed to get rid of the libstdc++$foo-dev dependency06:55
infinityb-d on libstdc++6-4.0-dev is very much the wrong answer.06:55
crimsunyeah, that's why I immediately remembered someone's work to remove all the libstdc++$foo-dev06:56
infinityBut I'm wondering why gcc-4.0 can't be made to link using "g++" rather than g++4.0, or something.06:56
elmopeople shouldn't use gcc and link libstdc++06:56
elmoif you're compiling C++ it should be done with 'g++'06:56
infinityelmo : Yes, but lots of packages do.06:56
elmoinfinity: no they don't06:56
elmoit doesn't work on some of debian's platforms, noticeably hppa06:56
infinity<raise brow>06:57
infinityAnd yet mysql-dfsg builds fine there.06:57
infinityAre you positive it doesn't work?06:57
infinitysdl-mixer, too.06:57
elmoit didn't use to when I ran their buildd06:58
elmo*shrug* maybe they "fixed it" - regardless, I still think the right fix is to fix the package to use g++ for GXX06:58
elmoor CXX or whatever06:59
infinityWell, I'd say it pretty obviously does work now.06:59
infinityAnd yeah, I'm heading into packages that fail like this and trying to DTRT, but it's still irritating. :)06:59
infinityOh, well I get to blame willy for this one.  Of course, he made the change in 2001, so I doubt he remembers. :)07:02
fabbionemorning07:08
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infinityAhh, the plot thickens.  We're linking libstdc++ because we're linking a C binary with a static lib that sometimes (but not always) contains a C++ bit.07:42
infinityI don't think I like MySQL anymore.07:42
tfheenyou liked mysql before?  sicko.07:43
infinityPerhaps I should rephrase that. :)07:44
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infinityWell, that's the last I'll see of the Monash library for a week or so.09:17
infinitySee everyone (who's going) at UDU...09:17
thominfinity: lucky you :-)09:17
=== infinity -> home.
thomcya sunday/monday thing09:17
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jordiseb128: DUDE11:11
jordihow the fuck do you make an international phone call with this stupid phone11:12
seb128??11:13
seb128what phone ?11:13
jordiseb128: dude I'm planning a last minute flight to Sydeny11:13
jordiI got ok from sabdfl and more surprisingly from my 3 bosses11:14
seb128oh, cool11:15
jordiI need to phone Edward PEarson but can't figure out how11:15
seb128how have never called out of your country ?11:16
jordinot from office11:16
seb128or do you just have a special phone ?11:16
seb128oh, k, dunno :p11:16
maswantake your cell phone, just start with a '+' and the country code?11:16
mdz_ fabbione: shall we remove 2.6.11 from the archive?11:17
jordimaswan: that's the secondary plan, yes11:17
seb128just kick somebody from the office ?11:18
Treenaksjordi: get an outside line, then 00<country code><area code><number> ?11:20
Treenaksthat's how it works in 99% of offices here..11:21
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astharotciao11:30
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jordiTreenaks: I already used my mobile phone11:47
seb128so ?11:47
ograseb128, you missed an awesome meal btw...11:48
jordiogra: YOU MEAN THERE ARE NO BAGS OF DEATH?11:49
jordierr11:49
jordideath in a bag, whatever11:49
seb128ogra, I don't like fish, what did you eat ?11:49
seb128jordi, that's VAC atm, not conf :p11:49
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pittiHey11:52
ograseb128, heh, marlin...11:52
ograseb128, wouldnt have been your restauant of choice then...11:53
ograbtw. i dont like fish either.... but on holiday i'm open for experiments :)11:53
ograand this was a fairly good one :)11:53
seb128who is marlin ? 11:54
seb128pitti, hey martin ;)11:54
ograseb128, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin11:56
ograseb128, you know the "old man and the sea" from hemingway :)11:56
\shogra: looks like a peace of mutant thuna ;-)11:58
\shaeh s/peace/piece/11:58
\shgrmpf...I'm getting confused..I have to script windows cmd sh*t now11:59
TreenaksMutant Tuna?11:59
TreenaksTeenage Mutant Hero Tuna?11:59
\shTreenaks: right...that's a malin ,->12:00
ograheh12:00
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seb128ogra, right12:02
seb128I've read this book12:03
ogra:)12:04
seb128jordi, .au flight ?12:06
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delireit seems the predominant issue new users are having with hoary in the #ubuntu channel relates to not being able to hear audio playback or write to the soundcard, despite the alsa modules are loaded. in stock debian, and on my own ubuntu system, this is quickly solved with alsaconf writing the correct aliases in /etc/modules.conf and/or killing esd altogether. what is the 'ubuntu way' of writing the correct aliases? also, are you guy12:22
pittiHi astharot 12:23
astharothi pitti :)12:23
ogradelire, use esd for all apps is the simple answer12:23
pittiastharot: would be great to see you on board. 12:23
delireogra: i don't use gnome. i'm more talking about the 2 dozen folk i've been helping in #ubuntu on my spare time.12:24
astharotpitti: for me too! :)12:24
ogradelire, then tell it to them ;)12:24
delireogra: you don't see it as an issue with ubuntu itself?12:24
delireogra: given that this wasn't a problem in the last release.12:24
delirewarty12:25
ograit might be a issue to have the right alsa module for your card loaded, but thats easy verified by comparing the output of lsmod and lspci, but in no case you shoud kill esd... if users use such old cruft like xmms for audio playback, just make sure they take the esd output plugin...12:27
Treenaksogra: old SDL games (like simcity 3000) don't work with esd either12:28
=== ajmitch_ hasn't noticed xmms problems yet
Treenaksogra: ogra at least, not in the way described in their manuals12:28
ograTreenaks, libsdl1.2debian-esd12:28
Treenaksogra: that's the only version I have installed12:28
Treenaksogra: but somehow it doesn't work.12:28
ograhmm12:29
ograTreenaks, probably crimsun can help here12:29
delireogra: many however hear no system sound at all. in fact looking at a log, nearly one in four new folk that join to channel have this issue12:29
Treenaksogra: the "kill it" solution is good enough for nerdy old me ;)12:29
delirecrimsun: seems inclined toward polypaudio. two users in the last hour in #ubuntu have installed polypaudio to 'fix' their audio problems12:29
delires/://12:30
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delirei notice that seem to get this issue right everytime, why my uni has installed in on 30 machines over ubuntu (sadly)12:30
Diablo-D3hey all12:30
delireMepis12:30
delire.. get it right.." i meant to say..12:31
Diablo-D3why does ubuntu-desktop require fetchmail?12:31
ograTreenaks, for you...12:31
Diablo-D3fetchmail doesnt seem to be much of a end user application12:31
delireDiablo-D3: it is if you have an MTA like exim on board12:31
Treenaksogra: yes, that's what I said.. there should be a solution, but for my situation a fix is not really necessary12:32
Diablo-D3delire: yeah, but why does an end user need an mta?12:32
delireDiablo-D3: in that you can call it directly or use it for fetching12:32
delireDiablo-D3: perhaps you're right.12:32
ogradelire, i'm currently not even able to browse the web for down under or neither to read my email, i wont be much help, but crimsun is the perfect guy to help here...12:32
ogras/for/from12:32
delireogra: ok cheers.. 12:32
Diablo-D3delire: I mean, sure, fetchmail is a great application, especially when coupled with procmail...12:32
Diablo-D3but end users use stuff like thunderbird12:33
delireDiablo-D3: that's been my setup since Debian Potato ;)12:33
delireDiablo-D3: true..12:33
Diablo-D3delire: hah, thats been mine since around the same time12:33
delire;)12:33
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delireanyway, time for a walk in the morning sun.12:33
deliregood chatting. hasta luego12:33
Diablo-D3seeya12:33
Diablo-D3so does anyone here know if I should file a bug on this?12:34
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seb128rah, where is pitti now ?12:41
ograseb128, he is running out of power.... saves himself the wlan stick....12:43
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pittiseb128: what's up? Don't be so lazy, just come down :-)12:43
seb128ah ah12:44
seb128I'm not lazy but the room feels better than the TV room, we have some fresh air12:45
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GheRiverores01:03
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SlackShrikehow to building custom ubuntu install/live cd from scratch?03:00
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_nyn_I was wondering... Are there any obstacles to incorporate tools built by other distros into ubuntu? For instance, a graphical installer, or gui administrative tools (so as to not force people to use the command-line). Would it be that hard to adapt them? I was looking at screenshots from the mandrake installer, and it seemed quite nice and mature...03:12
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tfheen_nyn_: you really don't want to rewrite the installer, there's work underway to add a graphical frontend and it's coming along nicely.03:16
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_nyn_yes, i've seem some discussion on the wiki, but I was just wondering why this should be done from scratch...03:17
_nyn_if not the installer, what about other gui tools available in other distros?03:18
_nyn_is there any kind of a priori rejection on reusing tools done for other distros?03:18
Burgundavia_nyn_, what is the license on the mandrake stuff?03:19
Burgundaviagenerall Ubuntu tries to use the upstream stuff03:19
Burgundaviaala the gome stuff03:19
_nyn_good question!03:19
Treenaksi.e. stuff that's been proven to work03:19
Burgundaviaala, if we promote upstream stuff over distro specific stuff, Linux as a whole will get easier to use03:20
Burgundavias/ala/also03:20
tfheen_nyn_: there's gnome-system-tools which is cross-distro03:21
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_nyn_yes, but the gnome stuff... it is SO limited, it seems to be designed for end-users inside a big corporation, with sysadmins who don' t need these tools anyway, and where end-user don't need or are not allowed to configure the system...03:22
Treenakstfheen: I have a new colleague here who looks like he's a mixture between you and Mako..03:22
Treenaks_nyn_: concrete example?03:23
tfheenTreenaks: oh?03:23
Treenakstfheen: yeah really weird :)03:23
_nyn_the volume applet, from which i can' t choose the sound device...03:23
_nyn_(or so it was with warty)03:23
Treenaks_nyn_: known problem. is being worked on,... and you CAN choose the sound card in the mixer in haory03:23
_nyn_menu editing...03:24
Treenaksjust not the default output..03:24
Treenaks_nyn_: known bug. being worked on for 2.1203:24
_nyn_network configuration...03:24
Treenaks_nyn_: works fine for me03:24
TreenaksI can setup almost anything03:24
_nyn_well, for me the ppp connection doesn' t even show up (hoary)03:24
Treenakshow did you set it up?03:25
_nyn_i've got used to ifconfig's and all...03:25
Treenaksthrough the UI?03:25
_nyn_pppoe-conf03:25
_nyn_pppd, etc. etc.03:25
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Treenaks_nyn_: not through the Gnome UI for it?03:25
Treenaks_nyn_: or is that buggy? if so, please file bugs instead of just complaining03:25
_nyn_i tried once, it didn' t work....03:25
Treenaksbugzilla.ubuntu.com03:25
tfheen_nyn_: networkmanager is going to solve that anyhow.03:26
_nyn_well, to file bug makes sense when the problem is punctual.... here, i'm talking about a general design strategy....03:26
_nyn_you see, i haven't used anything besides debian and ubuntu...03:27
_nyn_but i hear these other commercial distros have all these great administrative tools. I did check the mandrake graphical installer and it seemed quite good03:27
Treenakstfheen: For PPPoE/PPTP connections as well?03:28
tfheen_nyn_: adopting and supporting multiple installer is a major headache.03:28
tfheenTreenaks: I think so03:28
_nyn_anyway, since this has started... my gratest problem with gnome is the fact that it doesn' t distinguish user profiles... it's a one-size-fits-all, which for me is desperately underpowered...03:28
tfheenuhm, installers, not installer.03:28
Treenakstfheen: that'd be great, it'd remove my dad's only reason for running windows (easy PPTP config for his job's servers)03:29
tfheen_nyn_: what do you mean by user profiles?03:29
_nyn_do you know if it might be in gnome's horizon to introduce the concept of user profiles (say, newbie/joe-user, intermediate, advanced)?03:29
Burgundaviaare you talking about something like sabayon?03:29
_nyn_taking into account different kinds of user, and having different interfaces adapted to these different kinds of uers03:30
Burgundavia_nyn_, in a non-enterprise environmnet, why is that useful?03:30
Treenaks_nyn_: that probably won't be implemented... everyone will want to switch to advanced because they think they're so good03:30
Burgundaviabetter to make one really great default interface03:30
Treenaks_nyn_: also, it makes stuff look different for different people, so helping is harder ("Hey! That option is not on my screen!")03:30
_nyn_Treenaks: really? i keep hearing people praise how "simplicity" is great, how wonderful it is not to be "cluttered" with options...03:31
Treenaks_nyn_: yes. for everyone03:31
_nyn_so those people might choose a profile that doesn't present them with that many options03:31
Burgundaviaas Treenaks said03:31
Treenaks_nyn_: not only people who select "n00b"  from the menu03:31
Treenaks_nyn_: or whatever03:31
Amaranthwhat package is supposed to provide esd?03:31
TreenaksAmaranth: polypaudio?03:32
TreenaksAmaranth: or esound03:32
Amaranth*facepalm*03:32
Amaranthi removed polypaudio :P03:32
_nyn_"it makes stuff look different for different people, so helping is harder" -- no, it shouldn't be, not if the thing is implemented correctly. it should be trivial to know the person's profile and know what is and what is not available to them03:32
BurgundaviaAmaranth, either do03:33
Treenaks_nyn_: you really don't want that headache03:33
Burgundavia_nyn_, you have obiviously never worked in a IT help desk environmnet03:33
Treenaks_nyn_: it's better to just provide one simple interface that WORKS for everyone03:33
_nyn_but NOTHING works for everyone!!!03:33
Treenaks_nyn_: and where you can safely ignore the things you don't understand03:33
Burgundavia_nyn_, you can get pretty close03:34
_nyn_the current gnome certainly does not work for me and for lots of people who find it underpowered...03:34
Treenaks_nyn_: specifics.. file bugs..03:34
Burgundaviaah, we come to the crux of the matter03:34
Burgundaviathe user doesn't like gnome03:34
_nyn_and don't think that the solution is to have two whole diffrent "desktops" (gnome/kde) to respond to that03:34
_nyn_oh, come on... i really don't think that the reasons you have given so far justify that kind of rigidity...03:35
Burgundaviait is not ridigity03:35
Burgundaviayou can customize your gnome as your like03:35
_nyn_anyway, i'm really interested in this discussion... if anyone has a quick to link to a place where it has already been discussed, i would appreciate....03:35
wasabi_thank you ubuntu for including traffic shapping by default.03:35
Treenaks_nyn_: the gnome HIG, for instance03:35
_nyn_you can customize gnome???03:35
Treenakswasabi_: they include that?03:35
wasabi_Yup.03:35
Burgundaviaabsolutely03:35
Treenaks_nyn_: yes03:36
Burgundaviaright lcick, add to panel03:36
_nyn_tell me, please, how do i take off these ugly "applications/places/system" out of my menu??03:36
Burgundaviaremove from panel03:36
Burgundaviaright click, remove from panel03:36
wasabi_I was doing a backup of another server, left my workstation on all night doing it. Get a call in the morning that people's stuff is running slow.03:36
wasabi_"uh oh, backup still going". So I cross my fingers and rate limit it down... It's a smbclient/tar backup of a Windows system. A little hard to resume later. ;)03:36
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_nyn_of course, it does provide *some* space for choices, but it is certainly not enough for a large amount of users...03:37
Burgundavia_nyn_, file a bug03:37
Treenakswasabi_: oh basic tc work03:37
Burgundaviaand most of us like a good default03:37
_nyn_and i don't think forking is the way to go03:37
_nyn_i'd like to see something much, much more flexible...03:37
Treenaks_nyn_: file a bug with your opinion03:37
Treenaks_nyn_: maybe people will listen and implement it03:37
Amaranth_nyn_: An advanced user can work with an app designed for a newb, the reverse isn't true.03:37
_nyn_it is not a bug, it is a design issue03:37
Burgundaviaanything is a bug if it doesn't work rigth for you03:38
Treenaks_nyn_: design issues are ALSO bugs03:38
wasabi_Treenaks, yeah03:38
wasabi_Treenaks, problem is I always end up in situations like this going "damnit, have to compile it."03:38
Treenakswasabi_: apt is your friend :)03:38
wasabi_isn't tc a module too?03:39
Treenakswasabi_: it's a set of kernel modules, yes03:39
wasabi_those. ;)03:39
Treenakswasabi_: but the default kernel has _ALL_ modules that are not mutually exclusive, buggy or both03:39
Burgundavia_nyn_, generally, most people don't actually agree with you, sorry, but feel free to file a bug at bugzilla.gnome.org03:39
_nyn_i do consider the distinction between a bug and a design issue to be an important one... anyway, i'd really like to see (and participate in) some serious discussion on these issues. are the mailing lists the only way to go? or do these take place in wiki (would be ideal for me)?03:39
Burgundavia_nyn_, bugzilla is a good place03:40
Burgundavia_nyn_, so it gnome usability03:40
Treenaks_nyn_: bugzilla is just a way of keeping track of this things. just like wishlist items aren't really "bugs"..03:40
Treenaks_nyn_: we call them bugs anyway03:40
_nyn_:)03:41
_nyn_great principle for a system: everything is a bug03:41
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Treenaks_nyn_: no, we keep track of things we need to do using a bug tracking system03:42
Treenaks_nyn_: and not a bug tracker, a feature request tracker, a design issue tracker, etc.03:42
Treenaks_nyn_: it keeps complexity down. it's just a NAME03:42
_nyn_anyway, since this started, how do you people that don't think gnome is to rigid, how do you view the present proliferation of desktop environments? are you fine with the idea of kde being for advanced users and gnome for those who want a simpler system?03:43
Treenaks_nyn_: I consider myself an advanced user, and I have a complex system.. and I use gnome03:43
tfheen_nyn_: I really don't see that difference at all; I think of myself as a fairly advanced user, but I use gnome.03:43
Treenaks_nyn_: and if people want to use KDE, go right ahead... I don't like it03:43
Treenaks_nyn_: personal preference03:43
Burgundavia_nyn_, the last point is incorrect, IMO, and gnome is not too rigid and 2 DE's are not really that bad03:43
_nyn_but do you think there are room for both?03:44
Treenaks_nyn_: yes03:44
Burgundaviaabsolutely03:44
_nyn_what about 'once and only once'?03:44
tfheen_nyn_: why not?  They seem to both thrive and work well03:44
_nyn_what about code duplication?03:44
Treenaks_nyn_: xfce is fine too.. heck.. if you can live with twm, go right ahead...03:44
Burgundaviacode duplication is being handled via freedesktop.org03:44
Treenaks_nyn_: you can learn from other people's mistakes as well as your own..03:44
Burgundaviaie poppler03:45
TreenaksBurgundavia: poppler++!!!03:45
TreenaksBurgundavia: evince is like lightning 03:45
Burgundaviaevince is very nice03:45
Burgundaviaand default for breezy03:45
BurgundaviaI hope that gnome .12 ships it as well03:45
TreenaksBurgundavia: yeah, me too03:46
Treenaksit's really lightning fast03:46
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Burgundaviait can even open images, which I didn't know about03:46
Burgundaviatill I had to find a multipage tiff reader for a guy03:46
Treenaksciik03:48
Treenakscool03:48
Burgundavia_nyn_, there is very cool stuff regarding multiple DE's happening at freedesktop.org03:48
Treenakswhy does gentoo bugzilla go down just when I need it.. *sigh*03:48
zulbecause it sucks?03:49
_nyn_multiplicity can be good when it's justified. it is a bad thing if it just for the sake of having something different..03:49
_nyn_it's better to have one piece of highly malleable, flexible software than twenty that overlap and don't cover the entire ground03:50
Burgundaviait is better to recognize that neither is going away03:50
Burgundaviaand thus work to see hwo they can work together03:50
Treenaks_nyn_: yeah, that's why we have 600.000 different programming languages that can all do the same, in principle03:50
_nyn_that IS a bad thing...03:51
tfheenno, it's not03:51
Burgundavianot really03:51
tfheenit's a good thing03:52
Burgundaviahave lots of something is not03:52
_nyn_work together, exactly.... if there are two different approaches to a given problem, fine. but then, there has to be a time when things are weighed, and merges occur...03:52
Burgundaviaas long as they work together03:52
Burgundavia_nyn_, it is part of choice, which you were just arguing for eariler03:52
_nyn_variety, there' s a benign and a malign kind....03:52
tfheendiversity is good by itself.03:52
_nyn_variety is good when there is a reason for it, otherwise it is bad03:52
Treenaks_nyn_: just because you don't agree with the reason, or don't see it, doesn't mean there IS no reason03:53
Burgundaviadiversity is as good a reason as you need03:53
_nyn_Treenaks: of course not, but this is not about me, is it?03:53
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_nyn_so, you people don't recognize the existence of malign variety?03:54
mdkeis gftp compiled without ssl support? if so, is there any way to get it in?03:54
_nyn_variety is *always* good?03:54
tfheen_nyn_: no, it's inheretly good, because you will end up with clever solutions which can be shared by different systems.  Those appear "by accident", not by design.03:54
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Burgundaviamonoculture is bad, see Microsoft03:55
_nyn_oh. clever solutions will just pop up, like that... hmm.. i didn' t see it happening after decades of unix... look at the present state of unix-like system... it's a huge mess! it's pile of heterogenous software pieces!03:55
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Burgundaviaah, but the current monoculture isn;t much better03:56
_nyn_consistency, coherence, architecture....03:56
tfheenthey are consistent; applications are text-based and work with files, for instance.03:56
Treenaks_nyn_: unix is full of cleverness03:56
Burgundaviavirii, spyware03:56
_nyn_the problem with microsoft is not monoculture....03:56
Burgundaviaa large part of it is03:56
Treenaks_nyn_: it's a large chunk of the problem03:56
_nyn_the problem is not which microsoft or monoculture, the problem is proprietary software... but well, i guess stallman has already covered that ground.... :)03:57
_nyn_s/which/with03:57
Treenaks_nyn_: it's a problem in free software too03:57
Burgundaviano, the issue is not properitary software03:57
tfheenat least, _this_ issue isn't proprietary vs free software03:58
Treenaks_nyn_: if everyone runs KDE, and a bug is found, a worm emerges for KDE.. gnome people won't be affected03:58
Treenaks_nyn_: impact reduction :)03:58
_nyn_oh, i think that are much better ways to deal with software security...  to have a messy, disparate system doesn't seem to be a good one...03:58
Burgundavialife is a messy disparate system03:59
mdkeyou have a point03:59
Burgundaviathat is how some survives when a virus comes along03:59
_nyn_not mine...03:59
_nyn_L )03:59
_nyn_:)03:59
mdkeit annoyed me to have to learn a new way of configuring apache when i tried to use it on debian/ubuntu03:59
_nyn_at least, that is not where it is heading....03:59
Burgundaviathat is a bug03:59
_nyn_if you don't use a computer, you won't be affected either....04:00
Treenaksmdke: what do you mean? "a new way"?04:00
Treenaksmdke: just dropping config files in a directory you mean?04:00
mdkeTreenaks, the enabled/available thing04:01
Treenaksmdke: that's just symlinking :)04:01
TreenaksI think it's brilliant04:01
mdkeTreenaks, i know what it is04:01
mdkebut its different04:01
mdkebut i guess difference can have its advantages04:02
mdkeanother thing that weirded me out in debian is the lack of explanation of the useradd/adduser distinction04:02
mdkeif there is a difference from a linux norm, it should be well documented04:02
_nyn_anyway... it was nice to have some immediate feedback on those issues, and do intend to discuss them seriously... i'm really not convinced, though, that buzilla is the best way to go... i still think the most productive support for such discussions is the wiki, and hopefully there is a place in live.gnome for them...04:02
Burgundaviayou can have a consistent user interface over different underlying archs04:02
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mdkeso can anyone answer my question? how come ftp ssl support is not built into gftp, and how to get around it?04:05
_nyn_by the way (and this will be my last point for now): i can't believe that is basically no infrastructure inside the gnu project itself for those kinds of discussions, or any discussion whatsoever, besides the mailing lists, which also barely touches the issues i'm interested in... it is so sad... has anyone check the "gnu coding standards"? it's just embarassing, and that is almost nothing concerning it on the mailing lists....04:05
Burgundaviabecuase most of the dicussion happens outside the gnu project04:06
tfheenmdke: license issues; it would need an openssl exception clause04:06
_nyn_and i find this very strange, as the gnu project is the one that should embrace it all...04:06
mdketfheen, anything I can do to get around it?04:06
Burgundaviathe gnu project has so serious issues04:07
Burgundavialike stallman04:07
_nyn_oh no!04:07
azeemmdke: port it to gnutls, perhaps04:07
Burgundavias/so/some04:07
_nyn_not stallman!04:07
mvirkkilIs anyone else besides daniel stone working/planning to work on the graphical boot?04:07
tfheenmdke: rebuild the package with --enable-ssl and libssl-dev installed.04:07
tfheenmdke: it's just not redistributable.04:07
Burgundaviatfheen, ugly, is there a plan to get around that?04:07
mdketfheen, is there no universe package with that?04:07
Treenaksmdke: no04:08
_nyn_many issues, or so it seems to me, but not stallman, at least not that one which stated the project goals, and its underlying principles...04:08
azeemmdke: "not redistributable"04:08
Xofwhich part of "it's not redistributable" is hard to understand?04:08
Treenaksmdke: it's illegal to redistribute GPL apps with openssl support.04:08
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Treenaksmdke: if it linked to gnutls everything would be fine04:08
Xofother than perhaps the insanity of the situation04:08
Treenaksmdke: if it had an exception clause for openssl, it'd be fine too04:08
Treenaksmdke: it has/does neither.04:08
tfheenBurgundavia: no idea, it's universe so asking a MOTU might be a good idea.04:09
mdkewhoa04:09
mdkechill guys04:09
mdkei'm just asking04:09
mdkebecause it works fine in gentoo04:09
azeemthey don't distribute binaries of it I guess04:09
tfheenmdke: it's just illegal to distribute binaries linked with openssl04:09
Burgundaviamdke, http://www.openssl.org/support/faq.html#LEGAL204:09
mdkei c04:10
mdkebummer04:10
tfheenmdke: if gentoo has binary packages with it linked to openssl, they are in violation of the license.  If they're just distributing source, it's fine.04:10
Treenakstfheen: uh.. binaries of GPL programs, that is04:10
mdketfheen, no there aren't binaries04:10
Robot101gentoo "distributes" almost nothing, there are ebuilds for all manner of stuff which no other distribution would touch with a bargepole04:10
tfheenTreenaks: uhm, naturally, yes, thanks.04:10
TreenaksRobot101: mplayer? :P04:10
Robot101Treenaks: binary blobs of anything really, firmware, drivers, shareware, Sun JVMs, whatever :)04:11
elmotreenaks, multiverse.  multiverse, treenaks04:11
=== diamond grins
=== Burgundavia screams MOM!
mdkeso is there an alternative nongpl ftp client which supports ssl for ubuntu04:13
Burgundaviahmm, that was an interesting troll04:13
diamondelmo: hey. do you have any idea when the next community council meeting will be?04:14
Burgundaviaelmo, I need to get you my new key so I can get access to the svn repo again04:14
elmodiamond: err, not off hand - is t not on the wiki?04:14
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mdkeelmo, old one is still on the wiki04:15
diamondelmo: no, hasn't been updated since the last (abortive) meeting04:15
elmoah04:15
elmoI dunno, I'll ping mako tomorrow, if he's in a usable state04:15
diamondelmo: ok, thanks.04:15
jordiseb128: yes, I leave tomorrow at 2PM and arrive ther at 5AM two days later or something crazy like that.04:18
jordi4h laters the conf starts. Great way of fighting my first jetlag04:18
tfheenjordi: seb128 isn't around04:20
jordiI see. Tak.04:21
jordiHey, I have a use for my acquired Norwegian now. :)04:21
tfheenit's takk, though. :P04:23
tfheenit04:23
tfheenargh04:23
tfheenit'll be nice to see you around04:23
fabbionetfheen: aren't you supposed to be asleep?04:27
tfheenfabbione: it's only half past midnight here04:28
jorditfheen: yeah, I'm excited, because in a few hours it's been from "totally discarded" to "I have my e-tickets ready"04:28
tfheenjordi: rock!04:28
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jordiit was a total surprise when the boss said "why not?"04:28
jordiand last night, when mark said "take the flight!" hehe04:28
fabbionejordi: so you are coming to UdU?04:28
jordifabbione: yeah dude04:28
tfheenjordi: cool.04:29
jordilast minute decision :)04:29
fabbionejordi: ahah cool!04:29
fabbionejordi: when are you flying?04:29
jorditomorrow at 2PM I go to Heathrow and then Sydney.04:29
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jordiI get there at 5AM or something04:29
jordion Monday of course.04:29
fabbionejordi: argh i will go via london, but tomorrow morning04:30
jordiTomorrow is Saint Jordi, and it's the first time a day will mostly vanish for me in the calendar. :)04:30
fabbionei was really hoping to sly with somebody04:30
jordifabbione: aargh.04:30
fabbionesly/fly04:30
jordifabbione: I don't know what I'm going to do so many hours in that plane. Oslo->Amsterdam felt like an eternity already.04:30
tfheenOslo->Amsterdam is only like two hours04:31
tfheenor no, it's more like one04:31
jordiand a half.04:31
fabbionejordi: i have no idea.. my laptop battery doesn't last more than 2 hours...04:31
fabbioneso i can enjoy ONE movie..04:31
fabbionethan i am done04:31
jordisorry, it was Amsterdam->Madrid.04:31
fabbionefor the rest of the 22 hours04:31
tfheenfabbione: long flights have in-flight entertainment stuff04:31
jordifabbione: hmm, good thought. I need to get some movie.04:31
tfheenso you can watch movies and listen to music in some shitty system there04:31
fabbionetfheen: i was more hoping to score a chick :P04:31
jordifabbione: lol04:32
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fabbioneanyway... i need to finish to do some stuff at home04:32
fabbioneand prepare the laptop04:32
jordinow I just need to find my passport.04:32
fabbionei will be back later04:32
jordiIt can't be too hidden, I used it recently for .no04:32
jordido you guys think the exact expiration date of the passport is important?04:33
jordiI know the year and the month, not the exact day.04:33
jordiI need it for my ETA.04:33
tfheenI'd put the correct info in there to be sure04:33
elmoyes it is04:36
elmoor at least, if it expires < 6 months after you return it's important in the sense that you won't be able to go04:36
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jordielmo: it expires in 5 years04:49
jordiI renewed it for Oslo last month04:49
jordibut I don't remember the exact day.04:49
cartmansomeone broke console-data ?04:49
jordiI'll do the ETA thing tonight when I have the passport.04:49
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elmoCOLIN05:01
jsgotangcohello05:02
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mdkestill on the question of ftp and ssl, does anyone know what the best solution is? install ftp-ssl and bite the bullet on removing ubuntu-base?05:25
elmomdke: lftp does ssl05:26
elmoplain ftp is archaic05:26
mdkeelmo, is it packaged for ubuntu?05:26
elmoeh, yes05:26
jsgotangcobite the bullet!05:26
mdkeelmo, i was told that it is illegal to distribute gpl programs with ssl support05:27
elmomdke: plain gpl, yes05:27
elmogpl with exception, no05:27
mdkeright05:27
mdkeso lftp does it, and gftp won't do it?05:27
elmoerr05:27
elmoactually lftp doesn't seem to have the exception.  yay.05:28
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mdkeelmo, that's what i was thinking ;)05:28
mdkeelmo, but it def. has ssl support built into the package?05:28
elmoah #30516005:28
elmomdke: yes05:28
mdkeelmo, thanks05:28
fabbioneelmo: yo05:28
fabbioneelmo: do you have the power to kick back gtk+2.0 on all arches, now that libtiffxx0 is in main?05:28
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fabbioneelmo: that would unblock a bunch of packages from building05:29
elmohum05:29
elmosomeone broke wanna-build05:29
fabbionei swear it wasn't me :)05:30
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elmoah, no they didn't.  I'm just SPECIAL.05:31
elmofabbione: given-back05:31
mdkeelmo, it is a bit cheeky to ask you more on this, but you don't know a gui ftp+ssl client?05:31
fabbioneelmo: thanks!05:31
elmomdke: not offhand, no, sorry05:32
mdkenp05:32
mdkethanks05:32
Lathiatelmo: man, how are you still awake05:34
elmoit's only 1:3405:34
Lathiat*only* :P05:34
Lathiatim fucked :\ heh05:34
elmogod DAMN chmlib05:38
elmoa buildd's been stuck building it for over a week05:38
elmoI bet one on all 3 arches is05:38
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Lathiathaha05:41
Lathiatwtf is it doing05:41
Lathiatgot a build loop or something?05:41
elmoyah, I think it's looping in configure - not sure how it's avoiding the buildds "idle too long => kill" check05:42
Lathiatbecause its not idling?05:43
elmoEXCELLENT05:43
elmo1 buildd => chlib, other 2 => tzconfig inf loop05:43
elmoand both jbailey and lamont are on planes.  bah.05:43
Lathiathahaha05:43
jsgotangcohehe05:44
jsgotangcowell time for me to sleep as well for i have a plane to catch in a few hours05:45
jsgotangcobye bye05:45
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Lathiatelmo: sounds like th ekill script needs tweaking :)05:50
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sivangHello everybody :-)06:24
trukulohi sivang06:25
sivangtrukulo: hi, how are you?06:25
trukulotired, all the day working06:25
trukuloand tomorrow a wedding :P06:25
sivangtrukulo: you're getting married?06:26
trukulono, not me, my cousin, but i have to take a plane and fly 2 hours at 6 morning06:26
trukuloi'm not as stupid as fabbione 06:27
trukulolol06:27
sivangtrukulo: ROTFL06:27
sivangtrukulo: nice, are you at UDU ?06:27
trukulosivang: no, sivang ,i don't work on ubuntu development, i just lurk here, heh06:27
fabbioneelmo: i found some packages FTBFS for the same reasons on sparc.06:28
trukulofabbione: hi married boy06:28
sivangtrukulo: well, that's also cool, no prob06:28
fabbioneelmo: they loop forever in creating some include files... the funny thing is that if you kill the process, the package build successfully06:28
fabbionehey trukulo 06:28
fabbioneelmo: so it seems like that the include is generated properly, but the process never exits06:29
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diemanspelling ubuntu-desktop as ubuntu-dekstop doesn't work right, aptitude refuses to read my mind.06:42
trukulodieman: have you tried to install aptitude-mind-reader ?06:43
fabbionedieman: ubuntu-desktop is a task06:43
fabbionenot only a package06:43
fabbionei think it's something like:06:44
fabbioneaptitude install ~tubuntu-desktop06:44
diemanyeah06:44
diemani was doing ~ubuntu-dekstop06:44
trukulofabbione: you aren't supossed to drink beer at work06:44
dieman~t, rather06:44
diemananyhow, all is much better now06:45
fabbionetrukulo: uh? i am not at work today06:45
fabbionenational holidays06:45
diemanheh, nice06:45
trukulofabbione: new pope? italians export holidays to other countries?06:45
trukulolol06:45
fabbionetrukulo: ahha06:46
trukulofabbione: talking bout ratzinger Z , i mean... italians06:46
trukuloan italian friend of mine is coming today06:46
diemanmy next holiday is like may 30th.06:46
trukuloi don't have holidays :P i'm a company (all me)06:46
fabbionetrukulo: yeah Mazinger Z06:47
trukulofabbione: http://www.solisis.net/node/2606:47
fabbioneehhe06:48
trukulofabbione: do you think is a good pet for next ubuntu?06:49
trukulolol06:49
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diemandamn, they had a light rail car derail here06:50
diemanluckily with nobody on it06:51
Burgundaviadieman, is that really on topic for here?06:54
diemannot really06:54
diemanis the pope?06:55
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tritiumWow - running the LiveCD on a dual G5 with widesreen.  It's very nice, save the lack of sound.  :)07:01
Treenakstritium: cool07:03
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tritiumTreenaks, :)07:03
trukuloumm, kdelibs-data failing on hoary07:06
trukulo /var/cache/apt/archives/kdelibs-data_4%3a3.4.0-0ubuntu3.1_all.deb07:06
trukuloE: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)07:06
trukulobugzilling it07:06
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cartmantrukulo: #kubuntu07:07
trukulocartman: ok07:07
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cartmanThe following packages will be REMOVED:07:38
cartman  adzapper squid squid-common07:38
cartmanwtf going on?07:38
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Treenaksrunning breezy?07:46
cartmanyeah07:47
cartmansomething is weird07:47
sivangdoes anybody know if anybody can modify UDU's wiki?07:47
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sivang(I want to move my LanuchpadIntegration page from the old page)07:49
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jordiok, a step nearer .au08:16
jordiI found my passport.08:16
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bluefoxicyHeh, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, next comes U-Mini (for the Mac Mini)08:25
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zygahello09:15
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travail101did linux-wlan-ng make into into the final Hoary LiveCD?10:07
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lunitikCould someone please fix libebook1.2-3 depends?  (it appears to say it wants libcamel1.2-3, but won't install without libcamel1.2-0 - from universe - being installed)10:19
lunitikThis has been a bug for about 5 days, most annoying10:19
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blueyedlunitik, it also wants to deinstall evolution here.10:22
lunitikbluefoxicy: that is due to this though... libebook wants libcamel1.2-0, which breaks those depends10:23
lunitikblueyed: ^^10:23
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lunitik(although, it still says it wants libcamel1.2-3, which is kinda strange...)10:24
blueyedyep, have not taken a closer look at it. Hoping that it will get fixed in the next days.10:24
blueyedWould you like to file a report about it?10:24
lunitikI have10:25
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travail101is there an exhaustive package list for the final hoary liveCD10:47
travail101?10:47
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travail101Linux-wlan-ng... anyone?11:07
travail101who was i talking about this with last time...11:08
travail101he did a lot of work on it...11:08
travail101but someone else said it probably wouldn't get done in time for the next LiveCD (hoary)11:08
travail101welll it's out now... and I would like to know if it made it on or not...11:08
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GheRiverores11:45
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