[12:04] <dieman> doing my first install.
[12:04] <dieman> barely had to change much from warty.
[12:31] <spo0nman> is anyone doing a package of gaim-vv? 
[12:57] <lifeless> are there stats around on package counts for hoary - size of ujniverrse, supported etc
[12:59] <ajmitch_> apt-cache stats shows some values
[12:59] <ajmitch_> doesn't split it by component though
[12:59] <ajmitch_> you could always use grep-dctrl for that :)
[01:00] <lifeless> heh my machinbe has debian repos too - not entirely usefl:[
[01:03] <Kamion> use grep-dctrl on selected files in /var/lib/apt/lists/
[01:03] <lifeless> ok. pity there isn't a page somewhere stats.ubuntu.com or something ;)
[01:04] <jordi> hey Kamion
[01:05] <Kamion> morning
[01:05] <jordi> sigh, I wish I was there.
[01:07] <carlos> jordi: the conference is next week, you can join us :-)
[01:08] <jordi> well, no. :)
[01:08] <jordi> carlos: but feel free to ask Mark if I can still. I can arrange stuff now. Workload is low now here.
[01:08] <jordi> But I couldn't know that 3 weeks ago.
[01:09] <jordi> heh, I know it's impossible, but anyway.
[01:09] <carlos> jordi: I leave tomorrow
[01:10] <carlos> jordi: If you are able to find a flight that it's not too expensive... :-P
[01:10] <jordi> carlos: hrm. I have no ticket. :)
[01:10] <jordi> carlos: where do I search? :)
[01:10] <carlos> lol
[01:10] <carlos> dude, you need to travel more often
[01:10] <jordi> thanks for the reminder, Mr. Conference
[01:14] <Lathiat>  heh
[01:21] <jordi> hmm, a miracle
[01:21] <jordi>  881   + Apr 21 To jordi@sindom (  39) New Norwegian Bokmaal PO file for `nano'
[01:23] <jordi> actually no, it's the Czech and a few other translations which hasn't been updated in ages.
[01:26] <mkde> mdz, mdz_, you here by any chance?
[01:28] <mdz_> vaguely
[01:29] <mkde> mdz_, i have a quick question about the idea of a documentation upload to hoary
[01:29] <mkde> i understand there are language pack updates going in, and we have also added our stuff to Rosetta, so we wondered if there was any possibility of uploading with translations in new languages, if and when they become available.
[01:40] <mkde> mdz_, have i asked the question in the wrong place? if so, just lemme know who to ask it to :)
[01:57] <mdz_> mkde: it isn't outside the realm of possibility to release updates with new translations of documentation
[01:57] <mdz_> mkde: assuming that the package contains _only_ documentation
[01:58] <mkde> mdz_, thats what I like to hear :)
[01:59] <mkde> mdz_, the only updates would be languages, the original documentation is frozen and wouldn't change
[02:01] <mdz_> mkde: at some point in the future, we should discuss integrating documentation translations in language packs
[02:01] <mkde> mdz_, yeah that is a dream to pursue
[02:02] <mkde> mdz_, i understand very little, you need to talk to enrico of course, but afaik there might be difficulties that the language packs don't really deal with documentation, but with interfaces
[02:05] <mdz_> mkde: the current language packs deal with gettext translations.  it is possible to translate documentation using similar mechanisms, though it may be that a different approach would make more sense
[02:06] <mkde> mdz_, would be cool to pursue the idea at some stage
[02:06] <Kosai> Maybe I can stick a font question in here.  Hoary doesn't seem to bundle any fonts that can render Japanese Hiragana.  (But does bundle Korean and Arabic.)
[02:11] <mkde> mdz_, so shall we come back to you when we actually have some new translations and have tested to make sure everything builds?
[02:13] <toresbe> is the Ubuntu /etc/debian_version supposed to be "3.1"?
[02:17] <mdz_> mkde: contact me when you have a package ready to upload
[02:17] <mkde> mdz_, thanks muchly
[02:24] <bluefoxicy> um
[02:24] <bluefoxicy> ethereal as root asks for root's password
[02:24] <bluefoxicy> instead of mine.
[02:25] <Keybuk> toresbe: what else would it be?
[02:26] <toresbe> Keybuk: I'm not sure
[02:27] <Keybuk> that's the same as unstable
[02:27] <toresbe> nm, it was solved in two tosses of furniture and a punch to the face in another channel
[02:34] <dobwan> can someone point me at an esc/p (Epson Standard Code for Printers) language reference? I want to dump a 80 column wide print out landscape 2 columns wide.
[02:35] <zul> dobwan: thats kind of a #ubuntu question but check google as well
[02:39] <dobwan> zul I've tried google I figured I go to the source of knowledge
[02:41] <dobwan> zul, I'll try the cups devel people they must have the knowledge, thanks
[02:47] <Kamion> toresbe: about the only other thing we could sensibly do would be to remove that file; however, we felt that leaving it there would be better because tools that look at those kinds of files to figure out how to interact with the system will then interact with Ubuntu as if it were Debian, which will generally be reasonable
[02:47] <toresbe> Kamion: Yeah, true
[02:48] <toresbe> Kamion: All the other Deb-derived distros maintain the file
[02:48] <Kamion> we have lsb-release for more accuracy
[02:48] <Lathiat> uh all libc6 upgrade
[02:48] <Lathiat> brace for impact
[02:49] <Kamion> Lathiat: changelog doesn't look particularly bad
[02:49] <Lathiat> i'd hate to be the maintainer
[02:49] <Kamion> Lathiat: anyway, you're upgrading over *this* network? ;-)
[02:49] <Lathiat> be paranoid you'll screw someones system up bad
[02:49] <Lathiat> Kamion: whats wrong with that?
[02:49] <Kamion> slow
[02:49] <Lathiat> pfft im getting 110K/s
[02:49] <Lathiat> i only get 50 at home!
[02:50] <Lathiat> i thought you were goign to say someone might trojan my packages
[02:50] <Lathiat> and i was going to say tahts what gpg signing is for :)
[02:50] <Lathiat> i guess elmo coudl trojan my packages or soemthing :)
[02:52] <Lathiat> mm evolution install is broken, bugger.
[02:52] <Lathiat> everytime something breaks it happens to be the thing i want at the time :)
[02:52] <toresbe> Crap. My Ubuntu disk died. Back do debian sid on my 18-gigger until I manage to find a disk
[02:53] <Kamion> Lathiat: welcome to breezy
[02:53] <Lathiat> Kamion: yeh i know :)
[02:53] <toresbe> Yay breezy
[02:53] <Lathiat> at least gaim is fixed now
[02:54] <Lathiat> just need a working mono and installable evolution and i'll be happy again :)
[02:54] <zul> the bribe will probably work
[02:54] <Lathiat> yeh, just need said maintainers
[02:55] <Lathiat> i dont think tseng is here
[02:55] <Lathiat> wonder who does evo
[02:55] <Lathiat> takuo kitami, no idea who that is
[02:55] <crimsun> seb does it in ubuntu, doesn't he?
[02:59] <tseng> Lathiat: i dont drink alcohol, sorry
[03:00] <Lathiat> tseng: are you at lca?
[03:00] <tseng> no
[03:00] <tseng> ill be at udu next week
[03:00] <Lathiat> ah
[03:00] <Lathiat> i wont , bugger 
[03:16] <jdub> hrm
[03:16] <jdub> who's running breezy?
[03:17] <Riddell> jdub: you do mailing lists yes?
[03:17] <jdub> yeah
[03:17] <Riddell> jdub: I'm getting admin e-mails about kubuntu-bugs but I never got a password for it
[03:18] <jdub> ahar
[03:18] <jdub> i can reset it
[03:35] <bluefoxicy> question:  is snort in breezy compiled with --enable-inline (./configure --enable-inline)?
[03:40] <Kamion> apt-get source snort, find out :)
[03:40] <Kamion> if it is, it'll be in debian/rules
[03:45] <bluefoxicy> if not?
[03:46] <lifeless> Lathiat: change your flights ;)
[03:46] <toresbe> it won't.
[03:46] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  it's not
[03:46] <bluefoxicy> :(
[03:47] <toresbe> bluefoxicy: then apt-build?
[03:47] <bluefoxicy> toresbe:  heh.
[04:07] <Lathiat> lifeless: yeh i dunno if i can
[04:07] <Lathiat> im also lackign in accomodation
[04:07] <Lathiat> and money to eat for the week
[04:07] <Lathiat> mmm gconf backends look fairly trivial to write
[04:07] <jdub> Lathiat: :-)
[04:07] <jdub> Lathiat: was just pinging kris to ask him about it
[04:07] <Lathiat> was just looking at the bdb and xml ones
[04:08] <Lathiat> looks like it coudl be hacked up rather easily
[04:08] <jdub> Lathiat: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107926
[04:08] <Lathiat> apparently gconf hurts gnome session load times
[04:08] <Lathiat> any idea on the truth/stats of that?
[04:08] <jdub> not hugely
[04:09] <Lathiat> not having schemas in ldb could help a bit here
[04:10] <Lathiat> jdub: has anyone done any work at profiling gnoem startup to see what most of the time is spent doing? thatd be interesting
[04:10] <cc> we talked about ldb as a gconf replacement, didn't we, ages ago jdub ?
[04:10] <Lathiat> i mean it seems to be I/O bound just watching my hard drive light, but what its loading etc would be interesting
[04:10] <cc> well, not replacement, but putting gconf into ldb...
[04:11] <jdub> cc: tdb, from memory
[04:11] <cc> jdub: erps, yeah, tdb. sorry. and it was a good idea then ;-)
[04:12] <jdub> ldb gives you the ldap backend passthrough bonus
[04:12] <cc> hmm, time to think about this further. if gnome 3 is going to be massive changes ;-)
[04:12] <jdub> this is 2.x-able
[04:13] <Lathiat> yeh
[04:13] <Lathiat> everyone needs to stop smoking the omg 3.x crack :)
[04:13] <Lathiat> 3.x imo is for stuff like major changes to the way the desktop works physically
[04:13] <cc> jdub: i'll give it a go *as in take a look)
[04:14] <jdub> cc: chat to Lathiat too :)
[04:14] <Lathiat> yeh i was just looking at it
[04:14] <Lathiat> gconf backends don't seem overly hard to do
[04:14] <cc> yeah, okay, lets do that Lathiat 
[04:14] <cc> lunch
[04:57] <lifeless> cctry tdb
[04:57] <bluefoxicy> http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/19/1849215&from=rss  <-- in Ubuntu, it works by clicking "Printing" in the administration menu and double-clicking "add a printer"
[04:58] <bluefoxicy> obviously these people haven't yet realized that Red Hat is the ass of the Linux community, because every "where is it" I've seen appear on Slashdot seems to be centered around Red Hat's Fedora Core, while I just think "Now I KNOW I saw that in Gentoo and Ubuntu. . . ."
[04:58] <bluefoxicy> anyway, sleep.
[06:51] <infinity> Since when does gcc refuse to link -lstdc++ (and should it)?
[06:52] <infinity> Oh, nevermind.  <smack forehead>
[06:52] <infinity> gcc-4.0 -lstdc++ would try to call link using g++-4.0, which we explicitly don't want.
[06:54] <infinity> (Or should it?)
[06:54] <crimsun> right, you'd have to b-d on libstdc++6-4.0-dev
[06:54] <crimsun> I ran into that a few days ago
[06:55] <crimsun> hmm, there was work a while back in Sid that was supposed to get rid of the libstdc++$foo-dev dependency
[06:55] <infinity> b-d on libstdc++6-4.0-dev is very much the wrong answer.
[06:56] <crimsun> yeah, that's why I immediately remembered someone's work to remove all the libstdc++$foo-dev
[06:56] <infinity> But I'm wondering why gcc-4.0 can't be made to link using "g++" rather than g++4.0, or something.
[06:56] <elmo> people shouldn't use gcc and link libstdc++
[06:56] <elmo> if you're compiling C++ it should be done with 'g++'
[06:56] <infinity> elmo : Yes, but lots of packages do.
[06:56] <elmo> infinity: no they don't
[06:56] <elmo> it doesn't work on some of debian's platforms, noticeably hppa
[06:57] <infinity> <raise brow>
[06:57] <infinity> And yet mysql-dfsg builds fine there.
[06:57] <infinity> Are you positive it doesn't work?
[06:57] <infinity> sdl-mixer, too.
[06:58] <elmo> it didn't use to when I ran their buildd
[06:58] <elmo> *shrug* maybe they "fixed it" - regardless, I still think the right fix is to fix the package to use g++ for GXX
[06:59] <elmo> or CXX or whatever
[06:59] <infinity> Well, I'd say it pretty obviously does work now.
[06:59] <infinity> And yeah, I'm heading into packages that fail like this and trying to DTRT, but it's still irritating. :)
[07:02] <infinity> Oh, well I get to blame willy for this one.  Of course, he made the change in 2001, so I doubt he remembers. :)
[07:08] <fabbione> morning
[07:42] <infinity> Ahh, the plot thickens.  We're linking libstdc++ because we're linking a C binary with a static lib that sometimes (but not always) contains a C++ bit.
[07:42] <infinity> I don't think I like MySQL anymore.
[07:43] <tfheen> you liked mysql before?  sicko.
[07:44] <infinity> Perhaps I should rephrase that. :)
[09:17] <infinity> Well, that's the last I'll see of the Monash library for a week or so.
[09:17] <infinity> See everyone (who's going) at UDU...
[09:17] <thom> infinity: lucky you :-)
[09:17] <thom> cya sunday/monday thing
[11:11] <jordi> seb128: DUDE
[11:12] <jordi> how the fuck do you make an international phone call with this stupid phone
[11:13] <seb128> ??
[11:13] <seb128> what phone ?
[11:13] <jordi> seb128: dude I'm planning a last minute flight to Sydeny
[11:14] <jordi> I got ok from sabdfl and more surprisingly from my 3 bosses
[11:15] <seb128> oh, cool
[11:15] <jordi> I need to phone Edward PEarson but can't figure out how
[11:16] <seb128> how have never called out of your country ?
[11:16] <jordi> not from office
[11:16] <seb128> or do you just have a special phone ?
[11:16] <seb128> oh, k, dunno :p
[11:16] <maswan> take your cell phone, just start with a '+' and the country code?
[11:17] <mdz_>  fabbione: shall we remove 2.6.11 from the archive?
[11:17] <jordi> maswan: that's the secondary plan, yes
[11:18] <seb128> just kick somebody from the office ?
[11:20] <Treenaks> jordi: get an outside line, then 00<country code><area code><number> ?
[11:21] <Treenaks> that's how it works in 99% of offices here..
[11:30] <astharot> ciao
[11:47] <jordi> Treenaks: I already used my mobile phone
[11:47] <seb128> so ?
[11:48] <ogra> seb128, you missed an awesome meal btw...
[11:49] <jordi> ogra: YOU MEAN THERE ARE NO BAGS OF DEATH?
[11:49] <jordi> err
[11:49] <jordi> death in a bag, whatever
[11:49] <seb128> ogra, I don't like fish, what did you eat ?
[11:49] <seb128> jordi, that's VAC atm, not conf :p
[11:52] <pitti> Hey
[11:52] <ogra> seb128, heh, marlin...
[11:53] <ogra> seb128, wouldnt have been your restauant of choice then...
[11:53] <ogra> btw. i dont like fish either.... but on holiday i'm open for experiments :)
[11:53] <ogra> and this was a fairly good one :)
[11:54] <seb128> who is marlin ? 
[11:54] <seb128> pitti, hey martin ;)
[11:56] <ogra> seb128, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin
[11:56] <ogra> seb128, you know the "old man and the sea" from hemingway :)
[11:58] <\sh> ogra: looks like a peace of mutant thuna ;-)
[11:58] <\sh> aeh s/peace/piece/
[11:59] <\sh> grmpf...I'm getting confused..I have to script windows cmd sh*t now
[11:59] <Treenaks> Mutant Tuna?
[11:59] <Treenaks> Teenage Mutant Hero Tuna?
[12:00] <\sh> Treenaks: right...that's a malin ,->
[12:00] <ogra> heh
[12:02] <seb128> ogra, right
[12:03] <seb128> I've read this book
[12:04] <ogra> :)
[12:06] <seb128> jordi, .au flight ?
[12:22] <delire> it seems the predominant issue new users are having with hoary in the #ubuntu channel relates to not being able to hear audio playback or write to the soundcard, despite the alsa modules are loaded. in stock debian, and on my own ubuntu system, this is quickly solved with alsaconf writing the correct aliases in /etc/modules.conf and/or killing esd altogether. what is the 'ubuntu way' of writing the correct aliases? also, are you guy
[12:23] <pitti> Hi astharot 
[12:23] <astharot> hi pitti :)
[12:23] <ogra> delire, use esd for all apps is the simple answer
[12:23] <pitti> astharot: would be great to see you on board. 
[12:24] <delire> ogra: i don't use gnome. i'm more talking about the 2 dozen folk i've been helping in #ubuntu on my spare time.
[12:24] <astharot> pitti: for me too! :)
[12:24] <ogra> delire, then tell it to them ;)
[12:24] <delire> ogra: you don't see it as an issue with ubuntu itself?
[12:24] <delire> ogra: given that this wasn't a problem in the last release.
[12:25] <delire> warty
[12:27] <ogra> it might be a issue to have the right alsa module for your card loaded, but thats easy verified by comparing the output of lsmod and lspci, but in no case you shoud kill esd... if users use such old cruft like xmms for audio playback, just make sure they take the esd output plugin...
[12:28] <Treenaks> ogra: old SDL games (like simcity 3000) don't work with esd either
[12:28] <Treenaks> ogra: ogra at least, not in the way described in their manuals
[12:28] <ogra> Treenaks, libsdl1.2debian-esd
[12:28] <Treenaks> ogra: that's the only version I have installed
[12:28] <Treenaks> ogra: but somehow it doesn't work.
[12:29] <ogra> hmm
[12:29] <ogra> Treenaks, probably crimsun can help here
[12:29] <delire> ogra: many however hear no system sound at all. in fact looking at a log, nearly one in four new folk that join to channel have this issue
[12:29] <Treenaks> ogra: the "kill it" solution is good enough for nerdy old me ;)
[12:29] <delire> crimsun: seems inclined toward polypaudio. two users in the last hour in #ubuntu have installed polypaudio to 'fix' their audio problems
[12:30] <delire> s/://
[12:30] <delire> i notice that seem to get this issue right everytime, why my uni has installed in on 30 machines over ubuntu (sadly)
[12:30] <Diablo-D3> hey all
[12:30] <delire> Mepis
[12:31] <delire> .. get it right.." i meant to say..
[12:31] <Diablo-D3> why does ubuntu-desktop require fetchmail?
[12:31] <ogra> Treenaks, for you...
[12:31] <Diablo-D3> fetchmail doesnt seem to be much of a end user application
[12:31] <delire> Diablo-D3: it is if you have an MTA like exim on board
[12:32] <Treenaks> ogra: yes, that's what I said.. there should be a solution, but for my situation a fix is not really necessary
[12:32] <Diablo-D3> delire: yeah, but why does an end user need an mta?
[12:32] <delire> Diablo-D3: in that you can call it directly or use it for fetching
[12:32] <delire> Diablo-D3: perhaps you're right.
[12:32] <ogra> delire, i'm currently not even able to browse the web for down under or neither to read my email, i wont be much help, but crimsun is the perfect guy to help here...
[12:32] <ogra> s/for/from
[12:32] <delire> ogra: ok cheers.. 
[12:32] <Diablo-D3> delire: I mean, sure, fetchmail is a great application, especially when coupled with procmail...
[12:33] <Diablo-D3> but end users use stuff like thunderbird
[12:33] <delire> Diablo-D3: that's been my setup since Debian Potato ;)
[12:33] <delire> Diablo-D3: true..
[12:33] <Diablo-D3> delire: hah, thats been mine since around the same time
[12:33] <delire> ;)
[12:33] <delire> anyway, time for a walk in the morning sun.
[12:33] <delire> good chatting. hasta luego
[12:33] <Diablo-D3> seeya
[12:34] <Diablo-D3> so does anyone here know if I should file a bug on this?
[12:41] <seb128> rah, where is pitti now ?
[12:43] <ogra> seb128, he is running out of power.... saves himself the wlan stick....
[12:43] <pitti> seb128: what's up? Don't be so lazy, just come down :-)
[12:44] <seb128> ah ah
[12:45] <seb128> I'm not lazy but the room feels better than the TV room, we have some fresh air
[01:03] <GheRivero> res
[03:00] <SlackShrike> how to building custom ubuntu install/live cd from scratch?
[03:12] <_nyn_> I was wondering... Are there any obstacles to incorporate tools built by other distros into ubuntu? For instance, a graphical installer, or gui administrative tools (so as to not force people to use the command-line). Would it be that hard to adapt them? I was looking at screenshots from the mandrake installer, and it seemed quite nice and mature...
[03:16] <tfheen> _nyn_: you really don't want to rewrite the installer, there's work underway to add a graphical frontend and it's coming along nicely.
[03:17] <_nyn_> yes, i've seem some discussion on the wiki, but I was just wondering why this should be done from scratch...
[03:18] <_nyn_> if not the installer, what about other gui tools available in other distros?
[03:18] <_nyn_> is there any kind of a priori rejection on reusing tools done for other distros?
[03:19] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, what is the license on the mandrake stuff?
[03:19] <Burgundavia> generall Ubuntu tries to use the upstream stuff
[03:19] <Burgundavia> ala the gome stuff
[03:19] <_nyn_> good question!
[03:19] <Treenaks> i.e. stuff that's been proven to work
[03:20] <Burgundavia> ala, if we promote upstream stuff over distro specific stuff, Linux as a whole will get easier to use
[03:20] <Burgundavia> s/ala/also
[03:21] <tfheen> _nyn_: there's gnome-system-tools which is cross-distro
[03:22] <_nyn_> yes, but the gnome stuff... it is SO limited, it seems to be designed for end-users inside a big corporation, with sysadmins who don' t need these tools anyway, and where end-user don't need or are not allowed to configure the system...
[03:22] <Treenaks> tfheen: I have a new colleague here who looks like he's a mixture between you and Mako..
[03:23] <Treenaks> _nyn_: concrete example?
[03:23] <tfheen> Treenaks: oh?
[03:23] <Treenaks> tfheen: yeah really weird :)
[03:23] <_nyn_> the volume applet, from which i can' t choose the sound device...
[03:23] <_nyn_> (or so it was with warty)
[03:23] <Treenaks> _nyn_: known problem. is being worked on,... and you CAN choose the sound card in the mixer in haory
[03:24] <_nyn_> menu editing...
[03:24] <Treenaks> just not the default output..
[03:24] <Treenaks> _nyn_: known bug. being worked on for 2.12
[03:24] <_nyn_> network configuration...
[03:24] <Treenaks> _nyn_: works fine for me
[03:24] <Treenaks> I can setup almost anything
[03:24] <_nyn_> well, for me the ppp connection doesn' t even show up (hoary)
[03:25] <Treenaks> how did you set it up?
[03:25] <_nyn_> i've got used to ifconfig's and all...
[03:25] <Treenaks> through the UI?
[03:25] <_nyn_> pppoe-conf
[03:25] <_nyn_> pppd, etc. etc.
[03:25] <Treenaks> _nyn_: not through the Gnome UI for it?
[03:25] <Treenaks> _nyn_: or is that buggy? if so, please file bugs instead of just complaining
[03:25] <_nyn_> i tried once, it didn' t work....
[03:25] <Treenaks> bugzilla.ubuntu.com
[03:26] <tfheen> _nyn_: networkmanager is going to solve that anyhow.
[03:26] <_nyn_> well, to file bug makes sense when the problem is punctual.... here, i'm talking about a general design strategy....
[03:27] <_nyn_> you see, i haven't used anything besides debian and ubuntu...
[03:27] <_nyn_> but i hear these other commercial distros have all these great administrative tools. I did check the mandrake graphical installer and it seemed quite good
[03:28] <Treenaks> tfheen: For PPPoE/PPTP connections as well?
[03:28] <tfheen> _nyn_: adopting and supporting multiple installer is a major headache.
[03:28] <tfheen> Treenaks: I think so
[03:28] <_nyn_> anyway, since this has started... my gratest problem with gnome is the fact that it doesn' t distinguish user profiles... it's a one-size-fits-all, which for me is desperately underpowered...
[03:28] <tfheen> uhm, installers, not installer.
[03:29] <Treenaks> tfheen: that'd be great, it'd remove my dad's only reason for running windows (easy PPTP config for his job's servers)
[03:29] <tfheen> _nyn_: what do you mean by user profiles?
[03:29] <_nyn_> do you know if it might be in gnome's horizon to introduce the concept of user profiles (say, newbie/joe-user, intermediate, advanced)?
[03:29] <Burgundavia> are you talking about something like sabayon?
[03:30] <_nyn_> taking into account different kinds of user, and having different interfaces adapted to these different kinds of uers
[03:30] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, in a non-enterprise environmnet, why is that useful?
[03:30] <Treenaks> _nyn_: that probably won't be implemented... everyone will want to switch to advanced because they think they're so good
[03:30] <Burgundavia> better to make one really great default interface
[03:30] <Treenaks> _nyn_: also, it makes stuff look different for different people, so helping is harder ("Hey! That option is not on my screen!")
[03:31] <_nyn_> Treenaks: really? i keep hearing people praise how "simplicity" is great, how wonderful it is not to be "cluttered" with options...
[03:31] <Treenaks> _nyn_: yes. for everyone
[03:31] <_nyn_> so those people might choose a profile that doesn't present them with that many options
[03:31] <Burgundavia> as Treenaks said
[03:31] <Treenaks> _nyn_: not only people who select "n00b"  from the menu
[03:31] <Treenaks> _nyn_: or whatever
[03:31] <Amaranth> what package is supposed to provide esd?
[03:32] <Treenaks> Amaranth: polypaudio?
[03:32] <Treenaks> Amaranth: or esound
[03:32] <Amaranth> *facepalm*
[03:32] <Amaranth> i removed polypaudio :P
[03:32] <_nyn_> "it makes stuff look different for different people, so helping is harder" -- no, it shouldn't be, not if the thing is implemented correctly. it should be trivial to know the person's profile and know what is and what is not available to them
[03:33] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, either do
[03:33] <Treenaks> _nyn_: you really don't want that headache
[03:33] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, you have obiviously never worked in a IT help desk environmnet
[03:33] <Treenaks> _nyn_: it's better to just provide one simple interface that WORKS for everyone
[03:33] <_nyn_> but NOTHING works for everyone!!!
[03:33] <Treenaks> _nyn_: and where you can safely ignore the things you don't understand
[03:34] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, you can get pretty close
[03:34] <_nyn_> the current gnome certainly does not work for me and for lots of people who find it underpowered...
[03:34] <Treenaks> _nyn_: specifics.. file bugs..
[03:34] <Burgundavia> ah, we come to the crux of the matter
[03:34] <Burgundavia> the user doesn't like gnome
[03:34] <_nyn_> and don't think that the solution is to have two whole diffrent "desktops" (gnome/kde) to respond to that
[03:35] <_nyn_> oh, come on... i really don't think that the reasons you have given so far justify that kind of rigidity...
[03:35] <Burgundavia> it is not ridigity
[03:35] <Burgundavia> you can customize your gnome as your like
[03:35] <_nyn_> anyway, i'm really interested in this discussion... if anyone has a quick to link to a place where it has already been discussed, i would appreciate....
[03:35] <wasabi_> thank you ubuntu for including traffic shapping by default.
[03:35] <Treenaks> _nyn_: the gnome HIG, for instance
[03:35] <_nyn_> you can customize gnome???
[03:35] <Treenaks> wasabi_: they include that?
[03:35] <wasabi_> Yup.
[03:35] <Burgundavia> absolutely
[03:36] <Treenaks> _nyn_: yes
[03:36] <Burgundavia> right lcick, add to panel
[03:36] <_nyn_> tell me, please, how do i take off these ugly "applications/places/system" out of my menu??
[03:36] <Burgundavia> remove from panel
[03:36] <Burgundavia> right click, remove from panel
[03:36] <wasabi_> I was doing a backup of another server, left my workstation on all night doing it. Get a call in the morning that people's stuff is running slow.
[03:36] <wasabi_> "uh oh, backup still going". So I cross my fingers and rate limit it down... It's a smbclient/tar backup of a Windows system. A little hard to resume later. ;)
[03:37] <_nyn_> of course, it does provide *some* space for choices, but it is certainly not enough for a large amount of users...
[03:37] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, file a bug
[03:37] <Treenaks> wasabi_: oh basic tc work
[03:37] <Burgundavia> and most of us like a good default
[03:37] <_nyn_> and i don't think forking is the way to go
[03:37] <_nyn_> i'd like to see something much, much more flexible...
[03:37] <Treenaks> _nyn_: file a bug with your opinion
[03:37] <Treenaks> _nyn_: maybe people will listen and implement it
[03:37] <Amaranth> _nyn_: An advanced user can work with an app designed for a newb, the reverse isn't true.
[03:37] <_nyn_> it is not a bug, it is a design issue
[03:38] <Burgundavia> anything is a bug if it doesn't work rigth for you
[03:38] <Treenaks> _nyn_: design issues are ALSO bugs
[03:38] <wasabi_> Treenaks, yeah
[03:38] <wasabi_> Treenaks, problem is I always end up in situations like this going "damnit, have to compile it."
[03:38] <Treenaks> wasabi_: apt is your friend :)
[03:39] <wasabi_> isn't tc a module too?
[03:39] <Treenaks> wasabi_: it's a set of kernel modules, yes
[03:39] <wasabi_> those. ;)
[03:39] <Treenaks> wasabi_: but the default kernel has _ALL_ modules that are not mutually exclusive, buggy or both
[03:39] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, generally, most people don't actually agree with you, sorry, but feel free to file a bug at bugzilla.gnome.org
[03:39] <_nyn_> i do consider the distinction between a bug and a design issue to be an important one... anyway, i'd really like to see (and participate in) some serious discussion on these issues. are the mailing lists the only way to go? or do these take place in wiki (would be ideal for me)?
[03:40] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, bugzilla is a good place
[03:40] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, so it gnome usability
[03:40] <Treenaks> _nyn_: bugzilla is just a way of keeping track of this things. just like wishlist items aren't really "bugs"..
[03:40] <Treenaks> _nyn_: we call them bugs anyway
[03:41] <_nyn_> :)
[03:41] <_nyn_> great principle for a system: everything is a bug
[03:42] <Treenaks> _nyn_: no, we keep track of things we need to do using a bug tracking system
[03:42] <Treenaks> _nyn_: and not a bug tracker, a feature request tracker, a design issue tracker, etc.
[03:42] <Treenaks> _nyn_: it keeps complexity down. it's just a NAME
[03:43] <_nyn_> anyway, since this started, how do you people that don't think gnome is to rigid, how do you view the present proliferation of desktop environments? are you fine with the idea of kde being for advanced users and gnome for those who want a simpler system?
[03:43] <Treenaks> _nyn_: I consider myself an advanced user, and I have a complex system.. and I use gnome
[03:43] <tfheen> _nyn_: I really don't see that difference at all; I think of myself as a fairly advanced user, but I use gnome.
[03:43] <Treenaks> _nyn_: and if people want to use KDE, go right ahead... I don't like it
[03:43] <Treenaks> _nyn_: personal preference
[03:43] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, the last point is incorrect, IMO, and gnome is not too rigid and 2 DE's are not really that bad
[03:44] <_nyn_> but do you think there are room for both?
[03:44] <Treenaks> _nyn_: yes
[03:44] <Burgundavia> absolutely
[03:44] <_nyn_> what about 'once and only once'?
[03:44] <tfheen> _nyn_: why not?  They seem to both thrive and work well
[03:44] <_nyn_> what about code duplication?
[03:44] <Treenaks> _nyn_: xfce is fine too.. heck.. if you can live with twm, go right ahead...
[03:44] <Burgundavia> code duplication is being handled via freedesktop.org
[03:44] <Treenaks> _nyn_: you can learn from other people's mistakes as well as your own..
[03:45] <Burgundavia> ie poppler
[03:45] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: poppler++!!!
[03:45] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: evince is like lightning 
[03:45] <Burgundavia> evince is very nice
[03:45] <Burgundavia> and default for breezy
[03:45] <Burgundavia> I hope that gnome .12 ships it as well
[03:46] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: yeah, me too
[03:46] <Treenaks> it's really lightning fast
[03:46] <Burgundavia> it can even open images, which I didn't know about
[03:46] <Burgundavia> till I had to find a multipage tiff reader for a guy
[03:48] <Treenaks> ciik
[03:48] <Treenaks> cool
[03:48] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, there is very cool stuff regarding multiple DE's happening at freedesktop.org
[03:48] <Treenaks> why does gentoo bugzilla go down just when I need it.. *sigh*
[03:49] <zul> because it sucks?
[03:49] <_nyn_> multiplicity can be good when it's justified. it is a bad thing if it just for the sake of having something different..
[03:50] <_nyn_> it's better to have one piece of highly malleable, flexible software than twenty that overlap and don't cover the entire ground
[03:50] <Burgundavia> it is better to recognize that neither is going away
[03:50] <Burgundavia> and thus work to see hwo they can work together
[03:50] <Treenaks> _nyn_: yeah, that's why we have 600.000 different programming languages that can all do the same, in principle
[03:51] <_nyn_> that IS a bad thing...
[03:51] <tfheen> no, it's not
[03:51] <Burgundavia> not really
[03:52] <tfheen> it's a good thing
[03:52] <Burgundavia> have lots of something is not
[03:52] <_nyn_> work together, exactly.... if there are two different approaches to a given problem, fine. but then, there has to be a time when things are weighed, and merges occur...
[03:52] <Burgundavia> as long as they work together
[03:52] <Burgundavia> _nyn_, it is part of choice, which you were just arguing for eariler
[03:52] <_nyn_> variety, there' s a benign and a malign kind....
[03:52] <tfheen> diversity is good by itself.
[03:52] <_nyn_> variety is good when there is a reason for it, otherwise it is bad
[03:53] <Treenaks> _nyn_: just because you don't agree with the reason, or don't see it, doesn't mean there IS no reason
[03:53] <Burgundavia> diversity is as good a reason as you need
[03:53] <_nyn_> Treenaks: of course not, but this is not about me, is it?
[03:54] <_nyn_> so, you people don't recognize the existence of malign variety?
[03:54] <mdke> is gftp compiled without ssl support? if so, is there any way to get it in?
[03:54] <_nyn_> variety is *always* good?
[03:54] <tfheen> _nyn_: no, it's inheretly good, because you will end up with clever solutions which can be shared by different systems.  Those appear "by accident", not by design.
[03:55] <Burgundavia> monoculture is bad, see Microsoft
[03:55] <_nyn_> oh. clever solutions will just pop up, like that... hmm.. i didn' t see it happening after decades of unix... look at the present state of unix-like system... it's a huge mess! it's pile of heterogenous software pieces!
[03:56] <Burgundavia> ah, but the current monoculture isn;t much better
[03:56] <_nyn_> consistency, coherence, architecture....
[03:56] <tfheen> they are consistent; applications are text-based and work with files, for instance.
[03:56] <Treenaks> _nyn_: unix is full of cleverness
[03:56] <Burgundavia> virii, spyware
[03:56] <_nyn_> the problem with microsoft is not monoculture....
[03:56] <Burgundavia> a large part of it is
[03:56] <Treenaks> _nyn_: it's a large chunk of the problem
[03:57] <_nyn_> the problem is not which microsoft or monoculture, the problem is proprietary software... but well, i guess stallman has already covered that ground.... :)
[03:57] <_nyn_> s/which/with
[03:57] <Treenaks> _nyn_: it's a problem in free software too
[03:57] <Burgundavia> no, the issue is not properitary software
[03:58] <tfheen> at least, _this_ issue isn't proprietary vs free software
[03:58] <Treenaks> _nyn_: if everyone runs KDE, and a bug is found, a worm emerges for KDE.. gnome people won't be affected
[03:58] <Treenaks> _nyn_: impact reduction :)
[03:58] <_nyn_> oh, i think that are much better ways to deal with software security...  to have a messy, disparate system doesn't seem to be a good one...
[03:59] <Burgundavia> life is a messy disparate system
[03:59] <mdke> you have a point
[03:59] <Burgundavia> that is how some survives when a virus comes along
[03:59] <_nyn_> not mine...
[03:59] <_nyn_> L )
[03:59] <_nyn_> :)
[03:59] <mdke> it annoyed me to have to learn a new way of configuring apache when i tried to use it on debian/ubuntu
[03:59] <_nyn_> at least, that is not where it is heading....
[03:59] <Burgundavia> that is a bug
[04:00] <_nyn_> if you don't use a computer, you won't be affected either....
[04:00] <Treenaks> mdke: what do you mean? "a new way"?
[04:00] <Treenaks> mdke: just dropping config files in a directory you mean?
[04:01] <mdke> Treenaks, the enabled/available thing
[04:01] <Treenaks> mdke: that's just symlinking :)
[04:01] <Treenaks> I think it's brilliant
[04:01] <mdke> Treenaks, i know what it is
[04:01] <mdke> but its different
[04:02] <mdke> but i guess difference can have its advantages
[04:02] <mdke> another thing that weirded me out in debian is the lack of explanation of the useradd/adduser distinction
[04:02] <mdke> if there is a difference from a linux norm, it should be well documented
[04:02] <_nyn_> anyway... it was nice to have some immediate feedback on those issues, and do intend to discuss them seriously... i'm really not convinced, though, that buzilla is the best way to go... i still think the most productive support for such discussions is the wiki, and hopefully there is a place in live.gnome for them...
[04:02] <Burgundavia> you can have a consistent user interface over different underlying archs
[04:05] <mdke> so can anyone answer my question? how come ftp ssl support is not built into gftp, and how to get around it?
[04:05] <_nyn_> by the way (and this will be my last point for now): i can't believe that is basically no infrastructure inside the gnu project itself for those kinds of discussions, or any discussion whatsoever, besides the mailing lists, which also barely touches the issues i'm interested in... it is so sad... has anyone check the "gnu coding standards"? it's just embarassing, and that is almost nothing concerning it on the mailing lists....
[04:06] <Burgundavia> becuase most of the dicussion happens outside the gnu project
[04:06] <tfheen> mdke: license issues; it would need an openssl exception clause
[04:06] <_nyn_> and i find this very strange, as the gnu project is the one that should embrace it all...
[04:06] <mdke> tfheen, anything I can do to get around it?
[04:07] <Burgundavia> the gnu project has so serious issues
[04:07] <Burgundavia> like stallman
[04:07] <_nyn_> oh no!
[04:07] <azeem> mdke: port it to gnutls, perhaps
[04:07] <Burgundavia> s/so/some
[04:07] <_nyn_> not stallman!
[04:07] <mvirkkil> Is anyone else besides daniel stone working/planning to work on the graphical boot?
[04:07] <tfheen> mdke: rebuild the package with --enable-ssl and libssl-dev installed.
[04:07] <tfheen> mdke: it's just not redistributable.
[04:07] <Burgundavia> tfheen, ugly, is there a plan to get around that?
[04:07] <mdke> tfheen, is there no universe package with that?
[04:08] <Treenaks> mdke: no
[04:08] <_nyn_> many issues, or so it seems to me, but not stallman, at least not that one which stated the project goals, and its underlying principles...
[04:08] <azeem> mdke: "not redistributable"
[04:08] <Xof> which part of "it's not redistributable" is hard to understand?
[04:08] <Treenaks> mdke: it's illegal to redistribute GPL apps with openssl support.
[04:08] <Treenaks> mdke: if it linked to gnutls everything would be fine
[04:08] <Xof> other than perhaps the insanity of the situation
[04:08] <Treenaks> mdke: if it had an exception clause for openssl, it'd be fine too
[04:08] <Treenaks> mdke: it has/does neither.
[04:09] <tfheen> Burgundavia: no idea, it's universe so asking a MOTU might be a good idea.
[04:09] <mdke> whoa
[04:09] <mdke> chill guys
[04:09] <mdke> i'm just asking
[04:09] <mdke> because it works fine in gentoo
[04:09] <azeem> they don't distribute binaries of it I guess
[04:09] <tfheen> mdke: it's just illegal to distribute binaries linked with openssl
[04:09] <Burgundavia> mdke, http://www.openssl.org/support/faq.html#LEGAL2
[04:10] <mdke> i c
[04:10] <mdke> bummer
[04:10] <tfheen> mdke: if gentoo has binary packages with it linked to openssl, they are in violation of the license.  If they're just distributing source, it's fine.
[04:10] <Treenaks> tfheen: uh.. binaries of GPL programs, that is
[04:10] <mdke> tfheen, no there aren't binaries
[04:10] <Robot101> gentoo "distributes" almost nothing, there are ebuilds for all manner of stuff which no other distribution would touch with a bargepole
[04:10] <tfheen> Treenaks: uhm, naturally, yes, thanks.
[04:10] <Treenaks> Robot101: mplayer? :P
[04:11] <Robot101> Treenaks: binary blobs of anything really, firmware, drivers, shareware, Sun JVMs, whatever :)
[04:11] <elmo> treenaks, multiverse.  multiverse, treenaks
[04:13] <mdke> so is there an alternative nongpl ftp client which supports ssl for ubuntu
[04:13] <Burgundavia> hmm, that was an interesting troll
[04:14] <diamond> elmo: hey. do you have any idea when the next community council meeting will be?
[04:14] <Burgundavia> elmo, I need to get you my new key so I can get access to the svn repo again
[04:14] <elmo> diamond: err, not off hand - is t not on the wiki?
[04:15] <mdke> elmo, old one is still on the wiki
[04:15] <diamond> elmo: no, hasn't been updated since the last (abortive) meeting
[04:15] <elmo> ah
[04:15] <elmo> I dunno, I'll ping mako tomorrow, if he's in a usable state
[04:15] <diamond> elmo: ok, thanks.
[04:18] <jordi> seb128: yes, I leave tomorrow at 2PM and arrive ther at 5AM two days later or something crazy like that.
[04:18] <jordi> 4h laters the conf starts. Great way of fighting my first jetlag
[04:20] <tfheen> jordi: seb128 isn't around
[04:21] <jordi> I see. Tak.
[04:21] <jordi> Hey, I have a use for my acquired Norwegian now. :)
[04:23] <tfheen> it's takk, though. :P
[04:23] <tfheen> it
[04:23] <tfheen> argh
[04:23] <tfheen> it'll be nice to see you around
[04:27] <fabbione> tfheen: aren't you supposed to be asleep?
[04:28] <tfheen> fabbione: it's only half past midnight here
[04:28] <jordi> tfheen: yeah, I'm excited, because in a few hours it's been from "totally discarded" to "I have my e-tickets ready"
[04:28] <tfheen> jordi: rock!
[04:28] <jordi> it was a total surprise when the boss said "why not?"
[04:28] <jordi> and last night, when mark said "take the flight!" hehe
[04:28] <fabbione> jordi: so you are coming to UdU?
[04:28] <jordi> fabbione: yeah dude
[04:29] <tfheen> jordi: cool.
[04:29] <jordi> last minute decision :)
[04:29] <fabbione> jordi: ahah cool!
[04:29] <fabbione> jordi: when are you flying?
[04:29] <jordi> tomorrow at 2PM I go to Heathrow and then Sydney.
[04:29] <jordi> I get there at 5AM or something
[04:29] <jordi> on Monday of course.
[04:30] <fabbione> jordi: argh i will go via london, but tomorrow morning
[04:30] <jordi> Tomorrow is Saint Jordi, and it's the first time a day will mostly vanish for me in the calendar. :)
[04:30] <fabbione> i was really hoping to sly with somebody
[04:30] <jordi> fabbione: aargh.
[04:30] <fabbione> sly/fly
[04:30] <jordi> fabbione: I don't know what I'm going to do so many hours in that plane. Oslo->Amsterdam felt like an eternity already.
[04:31] <tfheen> Oslo->Amsterdam is only like two hours
[04:31] <tfheen> or no, it's more like one
[04:31] <jordi> and a half.
[04:31] <fabbione> jordi: i have no idea.. my laptop battery doesn't last more than 2 hours...
[04:31] <fabbione> so i can enjoy ONE movie..
[04:31] <fabbione> than i am done
[04:31] <jordi> sorry, it was Amsterdam->Madrid.
[04:31] <fabbione> for the rest of the 22 hours
[04:31] <tfheen> fabbione: long flights have in-flight entertainment stuff
[04:31] <jordi> fabbione: hmm, good thought. I need to get some movie.
[04:31] <tfheen> so you can watch movies and listen to music in some shitty system there
[04:31] <fabbione> tfheen: i was more hoping to score a chick :P
[04:32] <jordi> fabbione: lol
[04:32] <fabbione> anyway... i need to finish to do some stuff at home
[04:32] <fabbione> and prepare the laptop
[04:32] <jordi> now I just need to find my passport.
[04:32] <fabbione> i will be back later
[04:32] <jordi> It can't be too hidden, I used it recently for .no
[04:33] <jordi> do you guys think the exact expiration date of the passport is important?
[04:33] <jordi> I know the year and the month, not the exact day.
[04:33] <jordi> I need it for my ETA.
[04:33] <tfheen> I'd put the correct info in there to be sure
[04:36] <elmo> yes it is
[04:36] <elmo> or at least, if it expires < 6 months after you return it's important in the sense that you won't be able to go
[04:49] <jordi> elmo: it expires in 5 years
[04:49] <jordi> I renewed it for Oslo last month
[04:49] <jordi> but I don't remember the exact day.
[04:49] <cartman> someone broke console-data ?
[04:49] <jordi> I'll do the ETA thing tonight when I have the passport.
[05:01] <elmo> COLIN
[05:02] <jsgotangco> hello
[05:25] <mdke> still on the question of ftp and ssl, does anyone know what the best solution is? install ftp-ssl and bite the bullet on removing ubuntu-base?
[05:26] <elmo> mdke: lftp does ssl
[05:26] <elmo> plain ftp is archaic
[05:26] <mdke> elmo, is it packaged for ubuntu?
[05:26] <elmo> eh, yes
[05:26] <jsgotangco> bite the bullet!
[05:27] <mdke> elmo, i was told that it is illegal to distribute gpl programs with ssl support
[05:27] <elmo> mdke: plain gpl, yes
[05:27] <elmo> gpl with exception, no
[05:27] <mdke> right
[05:27] <mdke> so lftp does it, and gftp won't do it?
[05:27] <elmo> err
[05:28] <elmo> actually lftp doesn't seem to have the exception.  yay.
[05:28] <mdke> elmo, that's what i was thinking ;)
[05:28] <mdke> elmo, but it def. has ssl support built into the package?
[05:28] <elmo> ah #305160
[05:28] <elmo> mdke: yes
[05:28] <mdke> elmo, thanks
[05:28] <fabbione> elmo: yo
[05:28] <fabbione> elmo: do you have the power to kick back gtk+2.0 on all arches, now that libtiffxx0 is in main?
[05:29] <fabbione> elmo: that would unblock a bunch of packages from building
[05:29] <elmo> hum
[05:29] <elmo> someone broke wanna-build
[05:30] <fabbione> i swear it wasn't me :)
[05:31] <elmo> ah, no they didn't.  I'm just SPECIAL.
[05:31] <elmo> fabbione: given-back
[05:31] <mdke> elmo, it is a bit cheeky to ask you more on this, but you don't know a gui ftp+ssl client?
[05:31] <fabbione> elmo: thanks!
[05:32] <elmo> mdke: not offhand, no, sorry
[05:32] <mdke> np
[05:32] <mdke> thanks
[05:34] <Lathiat> elmo: man, how are you still awake
[05:34] <elmo> it's only 1:34
[05:34] <Lathiat> *only* :P
[05:34] <Lathiat> im fucked :\ heh
[05:38] <elmo> god DAMN chmlib
[05:38] <elmo> a buildd's been stuck building it for over a week
[05:38] <elmo> I bet one on all 3 arches is
[05:41] <Lathiat> haha
[05:41] <Lathiat> wtf is it doing
[05:41] <Lathiat> got a build loop or something?
[05:42] <elmo> yah, I think it's looping in configure - not sure how it's avoiding the buildds "idle too long => kill" check
[05:43] <Lathiat> because its not idling?
[05:43] <elmo> EXCELLENT
[05:43] <elmo> 1 buildd => chlib, other 2 => tzconfig inf loop
[05:43] <elmo> and both jbailey and lamont are on planes.  bah.
[05:43] <Lathiat> hahaha
[05:44] <jsgotangco> hehe
[05:45] <jsgotangco> well time for me to sleep as well for i have a plane to catch in a few hours
[05:45] <jsgotangco> bye bye
[05:50] <Lathiat> elmo: sounds like th ekill script needs tweaking :)
[06:24] <sivang> Hello everybody :-)
[06:25] <trukulo> hi sivang
[06:25] <sivang> trukulo: hi, how are you?
[06:25] <trukulo> tired, all the day working
[06:25] <trukulo> and tomorrow a wedding :P
[06:26] <sivang> trukulo: you're getting married?
[06:26] <trukulo> no, not me, my cousin, but i have to take a plane and fly 2 hours at 6 morning
[06:27] <trukulo> i'm not as stupid as fabbione 
[06:27] <trukulo> lol
[06:27] <sivang> trukulo: ROTFL
[06:27] <sivang> trukulo: nice, are you at UDU ?
[06:27] <trukulo> sivang: no, sivang ,i don't work on ubuntu development, i just lurk here, heh
[06:28] <fabbione> elmo: i found some packages FTBFS for the same reasons on sparc.
[06:28] <trukulo> fabbione: hi married boy
[06:28] <sivang> trukulo: well, that's also cool, no prob
[06:28] <fabbione> elmo: they loop forever in creating some include files... the funny thing is that if you kill the process, the package build successfully
[06:28] <fabbione> hey trukulo 
[06:29] <fabbione> elmo: so it seems like that the include is generated properly, but the process never exits
[06:42] <dieman> spelling ubuntu-desktop as ubuntu-dekstop doesn't work right, aptitude refuses to read my mind.
[06:43] <trukulo> dieman: have you tried to install aptitude-mind-reader ?
[06:43] <fabbione> dieman: ubuntu-desktop is a task
[06:43] <fabbione> not only a package
[06:44] <fabbione> i think it's something like:
[06:44] <fabbione> aptitude install ~tubuntu-desktop
[06:44] <dieman> yeah
[06:44] <dieman> i was doing ~ubuntu-dekstop
[06:44] <trukulo> fabbione: you aren't supossed to drink beer at work
[06:44] <dieman> ~t, rather
[06:45] <dieman> anyhow, all is much better now
[06:45] <fabbione> trukulo: uh? i am not at work today
[06:45] <fabbione> national holidays
[06:45] <dieman> heh, nice
[06:45] <trukulo> fabbione: new pope? italians export holidays to other countries?
[06:45] <trukulo> lol
[06:46] <fabbione> trukulo: ahha
[06:46] <trukulo> fabbione: talking bout ratzinger Z , i mean... italians
[06:46] <trukulo> an italian friend of mine is coming today
[06:46] <dieman> my next holiday is like may 30th.
[06:46] <trukulo> i don't have holidays :P i'm a company (all me)
[06:47] <fabbione> trukulo: yeah Mazinger Z
[06:47] <trukulo> fabbione: http://www.solisis.net/node/26
[06:48] <fabbione> ehhe
[06:49] <trukulo> fabbione: do you think is a good pet for next ubuntu?
[06:49] <trukulo> lol
[06:50] <dieman> damn, they had a light rail car derail here
[06:51] <dieman> luckily with nobody on it
[06:54] <Burgundavia> dieman, is that really on topic for here?
[06:54] <dieman> not really
[06:55] <dieman> is the pope?
[07:01] <tritium> Wow - running the LiveCD on a dual G5 with widesreen.  It's very nice, save the lack of sound.  :)
[07:03] <Treenaks> tritium: cool
[07:03] <tritium> Treenaks, :)
[07:06] <trukulo> umm, kdelibs-data failing on hoary
[07:06] <trukulo>  /var/cache/apt/archives/kdelibs-data_4%3a3.4.0-0ubuntu3.1_all.deb
[07:06] <trukulo> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
[07:06] <trukulo> bugzilling it
[07:07] <cartman> trukulo: #kubuntu
[07:07] <trukulo> cartman: ok
[07:38] <cartman> The following packages will be REMOVED:
[07:38] <cartman>   adzapper squid squid-common
[07:38] <cartman> wtf going on?
[07:46] <Treenaks> running breezy?
[07:47] <cartman> yeah
[07:47] <cartman> something is weird
[07:47] <sivang> does anybody know if anybody can modify UDU's wiki?
[07:49] <sivang> (I want to move my LanuchpadIntegration page from the old page)
[08:16] <jordi> ok, a step nearer .au
[08:16] <jordi> I found my passport.
[08:25] <bluefoxicy> Heh, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, next comes U-Mini (for the Mac Mini)
[09:15] <zyga> hello
[10:07] <travail101> did linux-wlan-ng make into into the final Hoary LiveCD?
[10:19] <lunitik> Could someone please fix libebook1.2-3 depends?  (it appears to say it wants libcamel1.2-3, but won't install without libcamel1.2-0 - from universe - being installed)
[10:19] <lunitik> This has been a bug for about 5 days, most annoying
[10:22] <blueyed> lunitik, it also wants to deinstall evolution here.
[10:23] <lunitik> bluefoxicy: that is due to this though... libebook wants libcamel1.2-0, which breaks those depends
[10:23] <lunitik> blueyed: ^^
[10:24] <lunitik> (although, it still says it wants libcamel1.2-3, which is kinda strange...)
[10:24] <blueyed> yep, have not taken a closer look at it. Hoping that it will get fixed in the next days.
[10:24] <blueyed> Would you like to file a report about it?
[10:25] <lunitik> I have
[10:47] <travail101> is there an exhaustive package list for the final hoary liveCD
[10:47] <travail101> ?
[11:07] <travail101> Linux-wlan-ng... anyone?
[11:08] <travail101> who was i talking about this with last time...
[11:08] <travail101> he did a lot of work on it...
[11:08] <travail101> but someone else said it probably wouldn't get done in time for the next LiveCD (hoary)
[11:08] <travail101> welll it's out now... and I would like to know if it made it on or not...
[11:45] <GheRivero> res