=== mdke [~mdke@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:40] Morning [12:40] hi Kinnison [12:45] salut Kinnison, how is aussie? [12:50] Tiring currently :-) === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hypatia [~mary@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:59] hypatia: why do i get the funny feeling you're sitting right opposite of me? ;-) [03:00] I might be. [03:00] cc, where you at mataro> [03:00] Burgundavia: nope [03:00] hmm [03:00] I'm up the front of mdz's session next to daniels and near elmo. [03:00] didn't meet you then [03:00] I'm all in black. [03:00] hypatia: okay, then it isn't you ;-) [03:00] heh [03:00] i'm at the back [03:01] cc: well, feel free to come say hello in the break. [03:01] I'm really tall too, so that should reduce the chance of getting the wrong person. [03:01] hypatia: were you by any chance of computerbank fame? [03:01] Nup. [03:01] okay, guess i'm confused === hypatia looks at cc's real name [03:03] Oh right, I know who you are now. [03:04] Because you got mentioned by Mark :) [03:04] hypatia: heh, right === hypatia [~mary@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cc [~cc@freedesktop.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.141.50] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hypatia [~mary@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cc [~cc@freedesktop.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:38] So, if anyone has any comments on how Rosetta could better target our workflow... now's a good time to talk. [06:38] Because the Rosetta One Point Zero discussion is about to start. [06:45] no idea, sorry [06:45] I have never used it [06:45] oh [06:45] actually [06:45] there are some bugs taht need to be worked out [06:45] hypatia, you there? [06:47] yep. [06:48] ok [06:48] got some ideas [06:48] 1. when translating a locale, show other locales of the same language [06:49] 2. Be able to specify what language the pot file is in, and those that language would be automatically translated [06:52] Ok. [06:52] I'm not sure how much of this I can raise right now, but I will make sure to draw Carlos's attention to it in the next day. [06:57] be bold! === thegreedyturtle [~thegreedy@user-0c93oto.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:16] ok [07:16] helloo [07:16] this is the channel for the ubuntu documentation team [07:16] helloooo there in internet land [07:17] of which I am a member [07:17] I like the idea of the wiki [07:17] :) [07:17] unfortunately, the Ubuntu way to promote the tools we have, most especially the GUI tools [07:18] also, less is more useful in my opinion [07:18] we also work in our svn repo [07:18] so I don't want to discourage you, but it also good not to duplicate efforts, so as to concentrate on one good set of docs [07:19] tell me more about the svn repository [07:19] we work with docbook xml in the svn repo [07:20] The reason I made this is really because I keep answering the same questions over at #ubuntu, and I wanted people to understand Linux better, it's really mostly about linux [07:20] you can check out at [07:20] https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk [07:20] that's an interesting idea about being GUI based [07:20] also, what people on #ubuntu really need are little docs for the specific problem they have right now, like enabling universe or ati drivers [07:22] such as BinaryDriverHowTo [07:22] if you want to work on the wiki, the really needed thing is a "first 20 minutes", here are the needed faqs to get you going meta page [07:22] they are working at NewFrontPage i think on that [07:23] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocTeamTestingNewFrontPage ? [07:23] maybe that [07:23] I hate our wiki with a passion [07:24] heh, i tend to lean towards that attitude as well [07:24] i don't like it because it's just not well organized atm [07:24] I like wikis, but I hate ours [07:24] and as you said, the little important things just aren't really there [07:25] well most of them are [07:25] BinaryDriverHowTo is for ati/nvidia [07:25] ExtraRepos needs work [07:26] and RestrictedFormats [07:26] those are the biggest three [07:27] my biggest problem is that i don't know much about the specific stuff (yet), hence i started on the general [07:27] what the wiki si good for is lots of little pages that are well organized [07:27] generally [07:28] is there a doc explaining more about how you want to be more GUI focused? [07:28] not really [07:28] current it is just a pipe dream [07:28] for the wiki that is [07:28] we are looking at setting up apache lenya so we can discard the wiki for docs [07:28] and edit on the web in our svn repo [07:28] i think i get what you are saying - you are mostly saying that this kind of doc is bad for the wiki [07:29] big docs are always better in smaller pieces, for me at least [07:29] since the wiki needs to be a collection of small docs [07:29] yeah [07:29] I hate reading a 40 page thing to get one piece of info [07:30] i thought about breaking it up, but it builds on itself, it's designed to be a 'start from scratch' sort of thing, and to be honest it probably shouldn't be on the wiki, but i don't really have anywhere to put it [07:30] there is a lot of start from scratch ideas being thrown around right now [07:30] as we just started the breezy cycle for the doc team [07:31] I suggest you subscribe to ubuntu-doc and join the dicussion [07:32] is that a mailing list, or this channel [07:32] mailing list [07:32] ok [07:32] that doc must of taken a lot of effort, so we can probably use it [07:33] :) [07:33] i'd like that, but i won't hate you if you decide not to [07:33] what should I do with it for now? [07:34] leave it there [07:34] easy enough [07:34] maybe put some links at the top to the three pages I just mentioned [07:34] well, i guess this means it's about time i got around to reading that online Subversion book [07:34] how do you mean? [07:35] something like 'if you want to add to this, please add to these instead' [07:35] yah [07:35] If you want to Enable 3D acceleration, see binarydriver [07:36] If you want to enable universe and multiverse, see blah [07:36] ah [07:36] and if you want restricted formats... [07:36] I would say, if you want to play DVD's or watch movies, see [07:36] to be clear, as the titles of the pages aren't very clear [07:38] i see what you are saying [07:38] I keep meaning to do it, but I then I use the wiki and I get disgusted and do something else [07:38] i have a question about somethin, how closely related to ubuntu is the ubuntu backports repo? [07:39] it seems to be on ubuntuforums.org, but... [07:39] backports is unofficial [07:39] done by people in the repos [07:39] you can write something about it [07:39] but be very clear the dangers [07:39] right [07:39] I have never used them, as I usually run the devel version [07:39] and can wait for the latest crack [07:44] what's a "How's Come"? [07:44] I'm wondering specifically about the apostrophe :) [07:44] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuHowsCome [07:45] I think it should be UbuntuHowCome [07:45] hows is a common esl mistake [07:45] I figured that: I didn't know about that being a common mistake. [07:46] I did it on purpose to make it cloes to HowTo, but i guess its not very professional [07:46] I think the title is OK... it's just that the phrase is "How come", not "How's come" [07:47] ie "How come Ubuntu doesn't have DVD support?" rather than "How's come Ubuntu doesn't have DVD support?" [07:47] ah i see [07:47] what's the ExtraRepos wiki page? [07:48] BreakMyUbuntu? [07:48] AddingRepositoriesHowto? [07:49] those probably all be combined into one I think [07:49] BreakMyUbuntu seems to be a guide to adding unsupported (and possibly broken) repositories. [07:49] the only repo you need is marilliat [07:49] Hmmm, AddingRepositoriesHowto seems to be a bit different. [07:49] and possible backports [07:50] adding should be about universe/multiverse [07:50] It is an instruction, the others are lists of repositories. [07:51] ok === froud [~froud@ndn-165-143-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:52] salut froud [07:52] African Greetings [07:52] he he beat me to it this morning [07:52] read the log [07:52] I have shaghaiied another person [07:52] ok, what's the case with http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HighPriority [07:52] he even likes the wiki [07:53] no idea? [07:53] The BOFs have three priorities in terms of which of them should result in specs by the end of the UDU conference. [07:53] The HighPriority ones are the highest priority, the ones that it is really important to get specifications for. [07:54] Priorities are assigned by Canonical management I think. [07:58] ah [07:59] hypatia, what is HCT? [07:59] The Hypothetical Changeset Tool. [07:59] I don't know exactly what it does. [07:59] I gather it's going to be for package maintainers. [07:59] They can gather together different patches using Bazaar or something. [08:00] The rough idea of a lot of what is in the high priority list is that the Ubuntu releases are meant to move onto the Launchpad infrastructure over the course of the Breezy cycle. [08:03] Hmm, no mention of documentation [08:04] froud, almost none of us are there [08:04] Can anyone edit HighPriority [08:05] no idea [08:05] point 14 Edubuntu [08:05] another distro [08:06] that can simply be a metapackage [08:06] looks very cool though [08:08] Certification and Training [08:08] looks interesting [08:08] I already put forward a proposal to sabfdl to develop courseware [08:09] will be interesting to see what comes out of it [08:11] froud: No, I don't think anyone can edit high priority. [08:11] You can add a BOF and ask them to priortise it. [08:11] But they don't want you to unless you're prepared to lead the BoF. [08:11] Yeah I see [08:11] little difficult if you are not their [08:11] s/their/there [08:11] Yeah. [08:12] Is there a video or audio stream for tuning into specific bofs [08:12] I don't know whether the spec process will continue in a non face-to-face way. [08:12] froud: No. [08:12] :-( [08:12] Bandwidth is very limited here. [08:12] They had a lot of trouble finding a hotel that was willing to give them access at all. [08:12] Is there aplace for Internet land to place comnets [08:13] Also, most BoFs here are two or three people sitting at a table. [08:13] No, there doesn't seem to be a specific place. [08:13] #ubuntu-devel is probably the best option. [08:13] A lot of devels/conference admins are there. [08:13] Ah well then that will be hectic [08:14] nah, is pretty quiet [08:14] well, I guess it best just to sit and wait [08:14] not many violations of the 5m rule [08:14] let them get the talking over [08:15] The idea is that every BoF results in a detailed spec written up by the person nominated as lead. [08:15] In a way, that's probably even more useful than a video feed. [08:15] Decisions, written down :) [08:15] yeah I understand it [08:16] I raised documentation briefly at the brainstorm this morning. [08:16] They were interested, but there's noone core from docteam here. [08:16] where is js [08:17] oh well since there is no way to collaborate on this, I guess sitting on the side is what we can do. Shit wish we had a reporter over there [08:18] a reporter in what sense? [08:18] you'd need several with this schedule :) [08:18] 5 bofs running side by side. [08:19] reporters are good at getting info from people and giving general coverage [08:20] the lwn person should be there [08:20] some kind of daily on Ubuntu Traffic would be good [08:20] I hope mako does a summary at the end. [08:21] But I know that he, jdub, jane silber and mark are spending like six hours every day just scheduling the next day. [08:21] yuck. [08:22] mataro was crazy [08:22] up at 8 [08:22] finish the conference at 8pm [08:22] eat and socialize till midnight [08:22] sleep [08:22] it's 9am start, 8:15 finish here. [08:23] also, nothing was open to eat dinner at in Spain until 9pm [08:23] here they're eating in the hotel. [08:23] MacDonalds [08:23] blegh [08:23] breakfast lunch and supper [08:24] then dont eat it for a year [08:24] just before I quit my job I was on the road for 2 weeks [08:24] fast food everyday [08:24] made me sick for a week after I finished [08:24] normally I am almost vegetarian [08:25] mmm no gimme a fat steak anyday [08:25] I like steak, but I don't eat it much [08:26] Ah well dudes, time for me to get the day started === froud looks at his agenda and sees, "write whitepaper on COBOL" [08:27] COBOL, didn't that die with *BSD? [08:27] this should be a blast from the past [08:27] actually not [08:28] there are around 70 billion lines in action and 5 billion added each year [08:28] according to Gartner [08:28] It may be old, but is still in use [08:29] my research shows that there have been many attempts to rewrite systems that were written in COBOL, 98% failed or the functionality of the new app was not equal to the old app [08:29] lines tells me that phb's still like it [08:29] phb's? [08:30] point haired bosses [08:30] a term from dilbert [08:30] actually there is a good business here [08:30] as the old cobol dudes die [08:30] who is gonna maintain and update the code [08:30] Hmmm. There is a fortune to be made [08:31] I am only 37 and already my COBOL experience is paying me mega bucks since I can understand the code and write documents, even though COBOL is very much self documenting [08:32] nice [08:33] also you must consider that the licensing fees for cobol are very cheap these days [08:33] work is plenty since virtually every business application vendor in the ERP market has a huge base of cobol running in the back end [08:34] try like 30 years of code [08:34] so in times of downturn, COBOL is a blessing :-) [08:35] he he check it out a main high street store finally boxes Linux [08:35] -AMD Semprom [sic] 2.4GHz [08:35] -128MB RAM [08:36] -LG CD-ROM [08:36] -40GB Hard drive [08:36] -15" LG Monitor [08:36] -160W Speakers [08:36] -56K Internal Modem [08:36] -LINUX Operating System [08:36] -1 Year Guarantee [08:36] No a machin efor me [08:36] but it is good that they are starting to box them off the shelf [08:36] you can't buy linux preinstalled in victoria [08:36] or for that matter, do I know anywhere that does it [08:37] Hmm maybe co.za is not so technologically retarded afterall [08:37] well chaps school run and then work, c ya later [08:37] cya === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-7.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:58] Has there been any concensus about changes to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserDocumentation [08:58] ie whether they're needed and what form they should take? [08:58] what sort? [08:58] yes we need some [08:59] I was thinking of trying to group things into tasks a bit more. [09:00] But is the concensus in favour of making that enormous list shorter? [09:00] I might poke EverydayUsage instead. === froud [~froud@ndn-165-143-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hypatia [~mary@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud corrects a previous statement about COBOL [10:43] Over 180 Billion lines of COBOL are in use today [10:43] with an estimated 5 billion new lines aded per year === cc [~cc@freedesktop.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:22] morning all [11:22] morn === froud is now known as froud-work === cc [~cc@freedesktop.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === abelli [~john@8072a8c53345172b.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:33] ciao mondo . [12:33] by now what guides (from you) are avaible to the end user? === froud [~froud@ndn-165-143-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.59.85] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.134.110] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sladen [paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:50] froud, you think this page can be deleted? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml [06:51] yep:-) [06:52] thanks [06:57] opinions? http://img24.echo.cx/img24/4998/ubuntubrochure8xr.png [06:57] that looks cool burgundavia [06:57] I am actually looking for critiques [06:58] but thanks [06:58] hoping to send this to the printers today [06:58] looking good is not a critque? i think it looks really nice [06:58] uhum, what am I looking at :-) [06:58] brochure for handing out at trade shows [06:58] not finished [06:59] Is it a cover, inside or ? [06:59] just a page to hand out [07:00] most wanted response? [07:01] looks very nice [07:01] from person receiving it? [07:01] what goes in the bottom box? [07:01] stuff about hoary [07:01] gnome 2.10, etc. [07:02] cool [07:02] not my favourite colour, but looks very pro === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-226.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:06] ugh [07:06] is there an easy way to get more fonts? [07:10] froud, what did you recommend for fonts again? [07:11] I di dnot recommend [07:12] Burgundavia: I am having trouble understanding the message. What is the "Most wanted response." [07:13] you mentioned some good, recommended fonts for using a while back [07:14] did I, can't remember but normally Helvetica for headings on brochures and Arial light for body texts [07:14] ok [07:17] hmm [07:17] does helvetica go by another name? [07:17] but Burgundavia, think about your most wanted response before design [07:17] No [07:17] hmm [07:18] yes froud? [07:18] sorry, not meaning to push [07:19] just know that the design should not be the message but supportive thereof :-) [07:19] no no [07:19] is good to get input [07:19] I have been floundering on this for weeks [07:20] I think you can safely say that the colors are Ubuntu. The thing now is to focus on what it is you want people to know and when they know, what you want them to do. [07:20] ah [07:20] true [07:21] So for example, is your message "Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings that just, works!!!" [07:22] Ubuntu Linux, For Humanity, for You [07:22] Ubuntu Linux, For Humanity, for Yourself [07:23] something that catches and prompts curiosity [07:23] prompting the reader to focus longer on the page [07:23] read a little more [07:24] ok [07:29] some new ideas http://img256.echo.cx/img256/5281/ubuntubrochure5ca.png === jeffsch [~jeffsch@fatwire-202-134.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:30] what tool you using, inkscape or gimp? [07:30] jeffsch, I have putting together a one page brochure for ubuntu. critique at http://img256.echo.cx/img256/5281/ubuntubrochure5ca.png [07:30] inkscape [07:31] vector art is your friend [07:31] yep agreed, magic tool [07:31] Burgundavia: who is the audience? [07:31] yep good question [07:32] audience, message, response in that order [07:32] technical crowd at LFNW [07:32] LFNW [07:32] linuxfest northwest [07:32] Ah ha [07:32] expect the audience to already use/develop linux/FLOSS [07:32] expecting linux users [07:33] Ubuntu Linux for what? [07:33] developering, working or playing? [07:34] Ubuntu Linux - For Humanity - For Yourself - At Work - At Play [07:34] hmm [07:34] get it for yourself [07:35] sorry just throwing phrases [07:35] Burgundavia: what is the purpose of it? Is it to spread the word? [07:36] basically [07:36] hey, any ideas are good [07:37] I would change the order of the text [07:37] put Based on Debian Sid first [07:37] ok [07:37] then six month release cycle [07:38] the stuff on the right is quick facts about Ubuntu [07:38] ok, the order now is: [07:38] debian sid [07:38] 6 month [07:38] 18 month [07:39] latest gnome [07:39] one cd [07:39] really cool release names [07:40] after 6 month, what is most important to people at lfnw? support cycle, or desktop? [07:41] there are some companies there, so support cycle is good [07:41] ok [07:41] also, it sets us apart from FC [07:41] which has a messy process [07:41] to say the least === froud [~froud@ndn-165-143-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:42] make sure it says "Based on..." and not based off [07:43] it looks good [07:44] ok [07:44] I will hack some more [07:56] ok, take a peak now http://img57.echo.cx/img57/8826/ubuntubrochure0sz.png [08:07] hmmm... [08:07] left and right margins should be the same [08:08] make the quick facts section lower, then you can move it to the left [08:09] move the "how to get" to one of the margins, say the left [08:10] you might not need the words "quick facts" [08:11] ok [08:11] will they know what shipit is? maybe say free cd or something [08:11] just my 2 cents [08:12] oh, and maybe somehow mention that ubuntu 5.04 (hoary hedgehog) is the latest release [08:13] the blank section is for about the latest release === abelli [~john@a1b24b91eb9cd1fb.node.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:34] anyone speak French? [09:34] je m'excuse, mais je parle seulment un petit peu [09:34] is there an accent of the e in the phrase Viva Le X!!! [09:35] no [09:35] but it's vive, not viva [09:35] Ok an this means something like long live x, right? [09:36] Vive and Viva are terms used in the Romance languages. Vive, in French, and Viva, in Spanish and Italian, mean, "long live." [09:36] loosely, it means more like hooray for X! [09:36] correct [09:36] Hmm OK [09:36]