[12:10] good night all [12:11] night mdke === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hypatia [~mary@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:13] Morning [01:18] morning === solomarv [~rouslan@terkin.graham.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sm [~simon@lsanca1-ar5-4-60-051-162.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:26] does anyone know in our current svn if we have an absolute beginners guide [02:44] hey, guys, is there any work being done on gnome help to bring it up to date with hoary? like removing the note about "applications:///"? it does not work in hoary, but is still mentioned in gnome help [03:10] I haven't heard of any efforts to make the GNOME documentation match Ubuntu. [03:10] Which isn't to say that it's a bad idea. [03:10] On the contrary, sounds like a good idea to me. [03:10] Probably you would need to submit patches to whoever is maintaining that package for main. [03:53] hypatia, thanks === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.209.161] has joined #ubuntu-doc === solomarv [~rouslan@terkin.graham.clarkson.edu] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.34.45] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jeffsch is back (gone 34:07:06) === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:06] jeffsch, hey [09:07] howdy [09:08] in a BOF === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jeffsch is away: bedtime === froud-away is now known as froud === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.137.212] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.137.212] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud is now known as froud-work [11:53] Burgundavia: spoke to Thomas at TSF [11:53] Burgundavia: he is leaving TSF and at present they will not be bringing volunteers [11:54] ah [11:54] thanks [11:54] no problem [11:55] Burgundavia: did you manage to add that install stuff to the installation guide? [11:56] can you patch and I will apply it for you? [11:59] still about half done [11:59] been working on my talk recently [11:59] OK, no worries === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:46] Burgyyy [01:46] salut [01:46] how is UDU? === jsgotangco [~jsg@intern146.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:00] bloody shitty wifi [02:00] Burgundavia, UDU is great but the food service kinda sucks [02:01] Mataro was bloody awful [02:01] the food that is [02:01] otherwise it was great [02:01] sabdfl called them "bags of death" [02:01] d00d mataro was like 2 weeks [02:02] indeed [02:02] one more week of bad food [02:02] it was great when they tried to serve the kosher guy ham [02:08] noooo they assigned me a BOF [02:08] which one? [02:08] heck what else doc stuff [02:08] system documentation [02:08] duh [02:10] jsgotangco, when you go to the Ubuntu at conferences page, please mention my brochure, and keeping any of this stuff within the docteam repos [02:11] what brochure? [02:11] I am working on a brochure [02:11] one page [02:11] we talked about that with mako and jdub [02:11] ok wilco [02:11] yeah we need flyers [02:11] I was going to have it done by this weekend [02:12] ok great i'll put it in the wiki then [02:12] but I am dropping it as we don't have a table at the conference for this [02:12] hmm we have a wiki page for that already [02:13] this already happened? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/AbsoluteBeginnerCommunity [02:13] http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences [02:13] yeah [02:13] i was there as well [02:13] can we get some feedback from you regarding what happened? === Burgundavia is very frustrated that he is not there [02:14] what happened? its in the wiki its already in draft [02:14] awww Burgy we also have brown ubuntu shirts to === cc [~cc@freedesktop.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:15] gahhh [02:15] don't frustrate me further [02:15] we had this global BOF about WhatWindowsUsersWant [02:15] this guy named Tim was aussie and he attended [02:15] sabdfl made it to a lightning bof [02:16] cool [02:16] what was said? [02:16] well its mostly in the old wiki and stuff [02:16] let me get that [02:16] mdke, should be familiar with it [02:16] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WhatWindowsUsersWant [02:18] im beginning to miss good stuff on the wiki [02:18] well its a rarity anyways [02:20] hypatia dropped by today [02:20] it is thurs there, no? [02:20] its only wednesday 10:24pm [02:20] ah [02:20] they're still making the sched for tommorow [02:20] where you here? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslationProcess [02:21] no :) [02:21] i meant :( [02:21] damn [02:21] you are the only member of the doc team there [02:21] myself, froud,mdke and jeffsch are not there [02:21] i know i know but i got to like go to other bofs that affect stuff [02:22] they even had to resched one bof so that mary can attend because im stuffed already [02:22] i barely get a break here [02:22] don't worry, one person can only be in one place at atime [02:24] i even got a pda bof doh [02:25] doh and a notebook dialup bof [02:25] grr i better go upstairs [02:28] bye bye [02:29] np === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === _froud_ [~froud@ndn-165-143-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === nocturnal_moxie [~yada@adsl-67-118-9-15.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === irc_sprout [~irc_sprou@adsl-67-118-9-15.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === solomarv [~rouslan@terkin.graham.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.34.45] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:59] hello all [06:59] now i've started workin on this [06:59] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=150088 [07:07] <_froud_> jiyuu0: it would have been nice if you had done this in svn [07:08] <_froud_> we could have easily packaged it as a deb [07:08] <_froud_> now we must update svn with your work. [07:09] <_froud_> this kind of headache is not for me. I am inclined to delete the copy of the guide now in SVN [07:09] <_froud_> and leave ubuntu guide to do its own thing [07:10] <_froud_> it seems that people working on this guide do not want to coperate with others in the docteam [07:10] <_froud_> which is a shame because a new version would have been good and could have gone into Rosetta for translation [07:11] i need some time / learn to do that [07:11] as the .html is already there... that's why i continue with it [07:11] <_froud_> sorry but this kind of thing pisses me off, especially when we tried to talk to the people on this guide [07:11] <_froud_> jiyuu0: we offered support [07:11] <_froud_> you never cam eback and asked for it\ [07:11] <_froud_> So was the XML [07:11] i just came back like 2 weeks to ubuntuguide [07:12] <_froud_> you could have with our support continued from there [07:12] and rushing like mad to update it [07:12] <_froud_> ruch like mad in svn [07:12] <_froud_> ruch [07:12] <_froud_> not out there [07:12] <_froud_> we put work into porting your work [07:12] <_froud_> and made several attempts to speak with you on this [07:12] <_froud_> you just went ahead [07:13] <_froud_> not cool IMHO [07:13] <_froud_> The XML has been there for weeks [07:13] sorry... my fault [07:13] <_froud_> who is now gonna merge the updates there into svn [07:14] i'm thinkin to do it [07:14] once i'm done with this version === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-233.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:14] <_froud_> sorry dude I dont believe you will want to do it all over again [07:14] <_froud_> some people were kean to help you on this project [07:15] <_froud_> I dunno if you will still have their support [07:15] <_froud_> we got crital feedback about the guide in our meeting [07:15] which version [07:15] <_froud_> very valuable input form people doing support on #ubuntu [07:15] the initial release? [07:16] <_froud_> I cant see that any of that inout has gone into the new version [07:16] regarding? [07:16] <_froud_> Burgundavia: explain to the man please [07:16] i hardly check my ubuntu mail [07:16] too many spams [07:16] <_froud_> my patience is running out [07:16] and request for support [07:16] <_froud_> jiyuu0: get spam protection dude [07:17] <_froud_> jiyuu0: if you want o work as an Island tell us and we will leave you alone [07:17] <_froud_> I sent you mail, twice [07:17] <_froud_> you answered once [07:17] <_froud_> and then you disappeared [07:17] hello [07:17] <_froud_> for all we know we are sending mail into e-heaven [07:17] sorry, give me a sec to read the scrollback [07:18] <_froud_> Burgundavia: jiyuu0 has updated ubuntuguide [07:18] <_froud_> now we have svn and his version [07:18] I see that [07:18] <_froud_> not coll [07:18] I also see a licencing issue [07:18] <_froud_> coo; [07:18] <_froud_> none of the input we got is in there [07:18] what's the input [07:18] <_froud_> and we have two versions [07:18] let me check my mail [07:19] what's ur name in email? [07:19] jiyuu0, I sent you something regarding your information on repos [07:19] <_froud_> jiyuu0: we aske dyou to join and speak to us so we can give you the inout [07:19] <_froud_> input [07:19] jiyuu0, I am going to be very very frank right now. If I offend you, I am sorry [07:19] your ideas are really really great [07:20] no offend [07:20] but what you are advocating is really not best practice [07:20] repos thingi? [07:20] there are lots of little things that need to be fixed in your guide [07:20] how do u suggest? [07:20] unfortunately, your guide is essentially a closed source thing for us [07:20] <_froud_> jiyuu0: 1st work with the team not in your own island [07:20] we cannot fix the problems in them [07:21] now, currently our systems are not the best for the casual person, but you are not the casual person [07:21] you also have mindshare, which I consider a bad thing, as I don't think your guide is actually something I can recommend to anyone === _froud_ is now known as froud [07:22] I don't want to work against you, but sometimes I find myself doing that on #ubuntu, as I really think that people need to get good advice, and sometimes your guide doesn't give it [07:22] now, that being said, it is an amazing start [07:22] Burgundavia: there were several cases where uses got into troubles using the guide, can you remember them [07:22] the repos one [07:22] apt-get install mplayer-386 right? [07:23] what else? [07:23] i get this often back then [07:23] I haven't really dug really deeply into the errors of the guide [07:23] jiyuu0: do you want to work with the team and open source it, or do you want to keep it closed? [07:23] also, gpl is not compatitible with gfdl and cc-by-sa, which we use [07:24] and your warty guide is also licenced under [07:24] thus you have, accidentally created an incompatitible fork [07:24] the license was suggested back then by mako === fgx [~fgx@host197-42.pool80183.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:24] mako would have suggested one of our licences === fgx [~fgx@host197-42.pool80183.interbusiness.it] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] [07:24] yes, but things change and that is whty we ask you to communicate with us [07:25] Burgundavia, which license it is? [07:25] yours is currently licenced gpl [07:25] so what u suggest to change? [07:25] our docs are dual gfdl and cc-by-sa 2.0 [07:25] your old warty doc is also licenced under this [07:25] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamLicense [07:25] I seem to remember that Plovs spoke with you regarding it [07:25] sanction as official by mako === solomarv [~rouslan@terkin.graham.clarkson.edu] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === solomarv [~rouslan@terkin.graham.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:26] we had a discussion about licencing with mako in Mataro, and it also hit the lists [07:26] i can change the license.... not a big issue [07:26] ok [07:26] who will port it to svn db xml? [07:26] that one i can [07:26] but i need some time finish some work with ubuntuguide first [07:27] are you now setup for it [07:27] and now worrkin on the add on CD [07:27] however, no matter how good we make your docs we still have the split [07:27] I think finsih the book in svn [07:27] that way people can help [07:27] thus my ideal plan would be to merge our eventual web portal into your ubuntuguide.org [07:27] more people makes it easier for you [07:27] then i have to abandon ubuntuguide right? [07:27] where got time for both [07:28] jiyuu0: not abandone [07:28] just open it so others can help you [07:28] jiyuu0, no, you don't have to abandon ubuntuguide [07:28] far from it [07:28] it will make life easier for you [07:28] rather we would fold your url and project into ours [07:28] as then you harness the power of OSS [07:29] also we can make deb packages of the book [07:29] and get it translated in rosetta [07:29] this will help you with your live cd [07:30] jiyuu0: are you setup to work with svn [07:30] i am agreeable wif this [07:30] but maybe gimme some extra time [07:31] to finish what's outstanding [07:31] ok [07:31] how much time [07:31] then we'll work on the portal [07:31] and the svn thingi [07:31] our web portal isn't up yet [07:31] we can finalize what is going to happen when it is up [07:31] ubuntuguide.org planned content is 80% there already [07:31] left email server [07:31] and now working on ubuntuguide.org CD [07:31] jiyuu0: do you have a delta of the change you have made [07:31] which should finish in few days times [07:32] not really.... [07:32] can you diff the changes so that we can see what needs updating in svn [07:32] hmm [07:32] that will cut the work [07:32] i move the topic up and down sometimes [07:32] we can probably do one from the raw html [07:32] still organizing it [07:32] Burgundavia: I dont have a backup of it [07:32] do you [07:32] i think... later i'll learn the svn xml thingi... and i'll port it over [07:33] jiyuu0: its many hours of work [07:33] the warty html one is still up [07:33] ittook plovs over three weeks [07:33] i can take that as reference [07:33] Burgundavia: will you diff it [07:33] sure [07:33] if my work is easy... i can work on it full time [07:34] ok [07:34] Burgundavia: I am not sure jiyuu0 fully understands the pwoer of what we are saying here [07:34] ok [07:34] for going forward [07:34] convert it to xml [07:34] the put in svn [07:34] I would preffer to diff and add the stuff to svn asap [07:34] short term: diff the new guide and update svn [07:34] and everyone can update right? [07:35] 2: fix the ubuntuguide.org [07:35] would that make ubuntuguide.org into official? [07:35] yes [07:35] that was our intent [07:35] we liked your work [07:35] when the portal is up, we need to discuss a permanent url [07:35] all of us [07:35] then i need to get diff hosting then [07:36] cause the current one is already bursting my bandwidth [07:36] why [07:36] we can make ubuntuguide.org a redir to a new url on the Ubuntu servers [07:36] it will be at Canonical [07:36] I happen to like help.ubuntu.com myself [07:36] yep [07:37] froud, can we hack lenya so we have simple urls: help.ubuntu.com/Sudo ? [07:37] yes [07:37] nice [07:37] that is key [07:37] jiyuu0: is it a train smash if we get you working in svn and doc book now [07:37] jiyuu0, you have provided docs when we haven't been able to get them out to people easily. That is a service that is beyond helpful [07:38] jiyuu0: I mean take current status [07:38] Burgundavia: makes diff [07:38] ok [07:38] we add changes to svn [07:38] we continue to finish it in svn [07:38] then we transform to html and host at Canonical [07:39] why not let me wrap things up here [07:40] how much time [07:40] and then i'll train smash on it [07:40] 1 week 2 week [07:40] a month [07:40] on the 8th next month was my target date to finish it [07:40] 1 month from day release [07:40] 11 days [07:40] ok [07:40] actually i just change the version from 0.x to 1.x today... which means... i'm nearly done wif it [07:41] then i'll start workin on the xml thingi [07:41] jiyuu0: dont take down the old version [07:41] jiyuu0: we first will diff it [07:41] so we can see just your changes [07:41] 4.10??? [07:41] yes [07:41] leave it there [07:41] 4.10 not much changes [07:41] just took out bacport [07:41] and a spelling mistake [07:42] window which is suppose to be windows [07:42] ick [07:42] argh [07:42] a raw diff is ick because so much stuff has moved around [07:42] but 5.04... lot's of changes [07:42] i'll work on 5.04 for the xml [07:43] jiyuu0: we are trying to find a short path to porting your work into the current version in svn [07:43] Burgundavia: can we make head or tails ofthe diff [07:43] froud, not really [07:43] ouch [07:43] as the stuff has moved [07:43] so we have to manually sift the two docs [07:43] what comes out is a not a straight replacement for what comes in [07:44] shouldn't actually be that bad [07:44] I need to review the hoary guide anyway, so I can do both at the same time [07:44] if we can see justthe changes [07:44] itwill make life much easier [07:44] Is it HTML 1.0 or XHTML3 [07:45] opps [07:45] XHTML [07:45] [07:45] Ok it is strict [07:45] that is a good thing [07:46] 5.04 not strict because of the paypal button [07:46] else should be strict [07:46] Burgundavia: I may be able to convert to db [07:46] but it will not be in qanda format [07:46] we would need to hack it [07:47] which route do you think is easier [07:47] jiyuu0: paypal will not be an option once it is in svn [07:47] jiyuu0: are you ok with this [07:48] perhaps you are doing this to make some cash [07:48] comming late to the discussion but why are we going to use this after i have had to help people out with problems due to the guide [07:48] not really [07:48] jjesse: we use it and improve it [07:48] i put the paypal... just to see who will donate [07:48] for fun [07:48] jiyuu0: ok just so long as we are clear [07:49] jjesse: we know there are problems [07:49] jjesse, what's the prob [07:49] jjesse: but we cant fix them as it stands now [07:49] when u all say there's prob... it's the repo thingi that broke with mplayer right? [07:49] what do u all suggest? [07:49] jjesse: when in svn we can address them with jiyuu0 [07:50] jjesse: do you still have a list of the problems [07:50] ok good [07:50] i am checking, phone just rang [07:50] it should be in a log somewhere [07:50] I need to check back to the metting before last [07:50] there were some that was discussed on the mailing list [07:50] i need to know the prob... cause so far the prob i heard is mplayer [07:50] and it has been fixed in the guide [07:51] yeah it is kinda spread [07:51] jjesse: one of the problems was a usability issue to do with letting newbie users to do sensitive stuff [07:51] jjesse: right? [07:51] yes [07:52] e.g? [07:52] this impacted on the whole doc [07:52] i'm trying to dig through my notes, it wasn't on #ubuntu it was a friend doing it in person [07:52] we ended up reinstalling ubuntu from the cd and set it up as i setup my local install of ubuntu [07:52] issit the sound prob? [07:53] jiyuu0: its not one particular part orsection [07:53] that's weird... cause i've done and tested it many many times [07:53] it was just that users got information that was technical [07:53] correct + updated many many times too [07:53] typos? [07:53] well to technical for a newbie [07:54] and many newbies ran into problems [07:54] because they did not understand the big picture [07:54] also he added a repository that messsed things up, but i don't remember if it was from the guide or not [07:54] they did one thing as you said [07:54] i've tried my best to write it to the easiet method possible [07:54] but they did not know to do another if they did so [07:54] that kind of stuff [07:54] but i think now... it's pretty stable [07:55] i've updated a lot [07:55] jiyuu0: its a usability issue, not a correctness issue [07:55] why not u guys check it out [07:55] ic [07:55] jiyuu0: what will that help [07:55] we cant change it :-) [07:56] In svn the doc becomes a living object, as support has problems we can immediately fix and republish [07:56] we can manage bug list against it [07:56] and everyone can change that? [07:56] as people have time they can ackle the problems [07:56] can change what [07:57] the guide, how [07:57] or the one in svn [07:57] insvn all can change it [07:57] docbook really isn't that hard to learn, i'm brand new to it and slowly learning it [07:58] for example a support person would post a problem to the list and we woul djust fix it [07:58] jjesse: jiyuu0 knows html there will not be a problem [07:59] Burgundavia: shorter to diff and make sense, or just to transform to xml [07:59] ? [08:00] easier to parse manually and edit the xml from there [08:00] kills 2 birds with one stone [08:00] OK [08:00] agree [08:00] update our version and give feedback to jiyuu0 [08:00] no no, get jiyuu0 inline to svn updates [08:00] he can see the changes then [08:00] as they happen [08:01] ok [08:01] jiyuu0: can you install subversion please [08:01] sudo apt-get install subversion [08:01] i am rushing to finish up the add-on CD [08:02] we want you to at least have a wc [08:02] can i do that once i'm done with the CD [08:02] ok [08:02] so you can see what we are doing [08:02] is the guide going to be on the cd? [08:02] jjesse: why not [08:02] we wante dit in hoary [08:02] if the guide is so incorrect then why would we want to give it out to everyone? [08:02] jjesse: we have to work on it for breezy :-) [08:03] jjesse, i'm makin a Unofficial UbuntuGuide 5.04 Add-On CD Guide [08:03] ok [08:03] it will contain all the cache [08:03] got a little lost in the converstion [08:03] and downloads [08:03] jiyuu0: if you can do a checkout now, then we can start work on updating our copy in svn [08:03] and you can see the changes [08:04] trying [08:04] all you need to do to see the changes is subscribe to our commit list [08:04] I have some time to help you get a checkout [08:04] you want to do it now it takes a few minutes [08:05] installing [08:05] we will also need you to send your pgp key to elmo sometime [08:05] so you can get a commit account [08:05] that i've not tried b4 [08:06] what pgp [08:06] or commit [08:07] both... i've not tried b4 [08:07] ok dont worry [08:07] ok... subversion installed [08:07] lets take baby steps [08:07] ok decide where you want your working copy [08:07]