[12:19] <Nafallo> *sigh* users.
[12:19] <Nafallo> why compile stuff that's in the archive themselves? :-P
[12:25] <ajmitch_> because they're users
[12:26] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: I should just ignore them ;-)
[12:26] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: I told them se.archive.ubuntu.com needs to sync, and one of them told me he had 1 megabit against that mirror :-P.
[12:27] <Amaranth> err, doing what?
[12:29] <Nafallo> Amaranth: install packages I assume. but that doesn't help it download the securityfix for OO.o ;-)
[12:29] <Amaranth> heh
[12:36] <tseng> ajmitch_: new muine!
[12:42] <Nafallo> http://bash.org/?500890
[12:42] <Nafallo> hilarious :-)
[03:17] <tseng> ogra: my beagled is mostly stopped now btw
[03:18] <tseng> ogra: just keeps polling (since no inotify)
[03:20] <Nafallo> hmm, and that depends on the new kernel?
[03:25] <tseng> yes
[03:25] <tseng> and a fixed gamin
[05:29] <tseng> so about the aac gstreamer plugins requests
[05:29] <tseng> we might have to make a seperate source package?
[05:29] <tseng> gst-plugins-multiverse
[05:29] <tseng> and build just those
[06:38] <tritium> rest up, crimsun
[09:20] <Burgundavia> gah, tseng, you borked blam
[09:34] <ajmitch_> that's the price of running breezy :)
[09:34] <Burgundavia> indeed
[09:34] <Burgundavia> just switched today
[09:35] <Burgundavia> blam doesn't appear to have any debugging options that I can find either
[09:36] <ajmitch_> how borked is it?
[09:36] <Burgundavia> starts, but doesn't do anything
[09:36] <Burgundavia> won't search for updates
[09:36] <ajmitch_> works for me (tm)
[09:37] <ajmitch_> testing updates
[09:37] <ajmitch_> right, so hitting refresh all doesn't do much
[09:38] <Burgundavia> nop
[09:43] <dholbach> morning
[09:45] <ajmitch_> hey daniel
[09:45] <ajmitch_> how are you?
[09:46] <dholbach> hey ajmitch_, still a bit tired :-)
[09:46] <dholbach> went into the pub with mvo yesterday and got home at 3:30 or something
[09:47] <ajmitch_> great :)
[09:47] <dholbach> how are you?
[09:47] <ajmitch_> I'm alright
[09:47] <ajmitch_> had a quiet day today
[09:49] <Nafallo> morning
[09:49] <ajmitch_> dholbach: http://ajmitch.dhis.org/~ajmitch/breezy_merges.txt
[09:49] <ajmitch_> more fun ;)
[09:50] <Nafallo> I can see... pipes :-)
[09:50] <dholbach> i can't believe it - are we ahead of debian in SO MANY places?
[09:51] <ajmitch_> I haven't sorted it into what's newer in breezy vs debian
[09:51] <ajmitch_> just what differences there are - there are lots of packages newer in sid still
[09:51] <ogra> morning
[09:51] <ajmitch_> Nafallo: wiki syntax
[09:51] <dholbach> maybe python-apt gives you the nice dpkg comparison operator
[09:51] <dholbach> hellas ogra
[09:51] <ajmitch_> hey ogra
[09:51] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: ahh, kewl :-)
[09:51] <ogra> is tseng around ?
[09:52] <ajmitch_> perhaps, but the VersionCompare only takes ints as arguments
[09:52] <ajmitch_> still working thru python-apt :)
[09:53] <dholbach> ajmitch_: then you should use   ||    instead of   |  right? ;-)
[09:53] <ajmitch_> dholbach: whatever works, it's only a print statement  ;)
[09:54] <ajmitch_> I'd also like to change it to work on source packages instead of binaries
[09:54] <ajmitch_> and then fetch the diffs for review from MoM
[09:54] <dholbach> ajmitch_: grab the two Sources.gz before :-)
[09:54] <ajmitch_> dholbach: yes, but this is using the apt interface -  libapt is reading the sources.list :)
[09:55] <ajmitch_> otherwise I'll just write up something quickly
[09:55] <dholbach> this is what i used for the apt-get.org stuff
[09:55] <dholbach> http://ubuntu.gplan.info/apt-get.org.py
[09:55] <dholbach> i downloaded 523798752989257 Sources.gz before (via apt-get) and compared them to our own Sources.gz
[09:56] <ajmitch_> ok :)
[09:56] <ajmitch_> nice mail template
[09:57] <dholbach> not that exciting, but   src_recs = apt_pkg.GetPkgSrcRecords()   and  while  src_recs.Lookup(package):   seem to be the important stanzas
[09:57] <ajmitch_> yep
[09:57] <ajmitch_> I'm mainly wanting to compare versions
[09:57] <dholbach> yeah
[09:57] <ajmitch_> so I'll have to work out the syntax for that
[09:57] <dholbach> i wonder, when mvo will get up ;-)
[09:58] <ajmitch_> depends on how much you made him drink ;)
[09:58] <dholbach> it was ok :-)
[09:58] <dholbach> i mean, WE didnt end up in the gay bar :-)
[09:58] <ajmitch_> I'm glad..
[09:58] <dholbach> (compared to the majority of the ubuntu guys in sydney ;-))
[09:59] <dholbach> ogra: how are you?
[10:00] <ogra> fine... tired...
[10:00] <dholbach> :-)
[10:00] <ogra> just built the new tomboy source here
[10:00] <dholbach> me too
[10:00] <Nafallo> ogra: amd64?
[10:00] <ogra> there is a typo in the source
[10:00] <ogra> yep
[10:00] <Nafallo> ogra: rock!
[10:00] <Nafallo> hmm, s/rock/kewl/
[10:00] <ogra> runs fine
[10:01] <ajmitch_> ah, looks like I do have it installed
[10:01] <Burgundavia> 8.3 already has for me
[10:01] <ajmitch_> and muine still doesn't work :)
[10:01] <Nafallo> No, I'm NOT influenced by this channel in any way :-P
[10:01] <ogra> heh
[10:02] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: eyy, you we're smiling ;-)
[10:02] <ajmitch_> ?
[10:03] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: means that you probably LIKE that muine doesn't work ;-)
[10:03] <ajmitch_> Nafallo: no, why do you think that?
[10:03] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: the smiliey :-)
[10:05] <Nafallo> nm, I shouldn't be up this early, but I have a haircut to be made :-)
[10:07] <dholbach> why is aaronlake (metallikop) on the CCAgenda?
[10:49] <ogra> ajmitch_, ? muine just needs a built gtk-sharp2-unstable, then it should (nearly) work
[10:52] <ajmitch_> ogra: PEBKAC ;)
[10:54] <ogra> PEBKAC ?
[10:56] <ajmitch_> problem exists between keyboard and chair
[10:56] <ajmitch_> ie, user (myself) error
[10:56] <ogra> ah
[10:58] <ogra> also the dependency to mono-mint must go,  cli-common (>= 0.1) needs to be tightened to 0.1.1 and dh_netdeps and dh_makenetlibs need to be changed s/net/cli then it works fine :)
[11:00] <ogra> whoops....
[11:00] <ogra> 0.8.3 has no trayicon anymore :/
[11:00] <Burgundavia> I noticed that
[11:00] <Burgundavia> was most sad
[11:00] <ogra> yeah
[11:01] <Burgundavia> and the gnome-panel-app link it dead
[11:01] <ogra> worksforme
[11:01] <Burgundavia> http://pedro.codemonkey.cl/muine/applet/index.html
[11:01] <Burgundavia> this one?
[11:02] <ogra> 404 ?
[11:02] <Burgundavia> yep
[11:02] <Burgundavia> you know of another?
[11:02] <ogra> looked at gnomefiles ?
[11:02] <Burgundavia> nope
[11:02] <ogra> he probably m,oved
[11:03] <Burgundavia> the download link goes to the same website
[11:03] <ogra> but works
[11:05] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:05] <Burgundavia> hmm, no package means I don't install
[11:06] <ogra> hmm,  dh_netdeps and dh_makenetlibs are changed in muine 0.8.3 .... funnily debuild still complains about them...
[11:29] <Burgundavia> and I curse malone
[11:33] <Burgundavia> does launchpad have a mailing list?
[11:34] <p0m> I think I saw one.
[11:34] <Burgundavia> so did I
[11:34] <Burgundavia> there is
[11:34] <Burgundavia> they just don't list it on lists.u.c
[11:35] <p0m> Wait, you mean Launchpad as in the ubuntu launchpad?
[11:35] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:35] <p0m> I seem to be thinking of something else then :)
[11:36] <p0m> So you're looking for the malone mailing list
[11:41] <dholbach> Unfrgiven: ping
[11:42] <dholbach> hey herve!
[11:42] <herve> (cloudy) morning!
[11:42] <dholbach> here as well
[11:44] <herve> so let's eat my easter egg to cheer up :-)
[11:46] <thom> launchpad mailing list is private; i guess suggesting to bradb/sabdfl that you need a malone users list would be a good first step
[11:48] <Burgundavia> thom, thanks
[11:49] <Burgundavia> thom, I was using malone, and then I felt like ripping my spleen out (this also happens when I use bugzilla)
[11:49] <Burgundavia> so I needed to vent and tell them what was crack and needed to fix
[11:49] <Burgundavia> s/to/to be
[11:49] <Burgundavia> ed
[11:52] <herve> I have feedback too
[11:52] <herve> I don't feel comfortable with its ergonomy
[11:52] <Burgundavia> herve, I am in #launchpad talking about it right now
[11:52] <p0m> Burgundavia: I thought bugzilla removed your spleen for you.
[11:53] <Burgundavia> felt like != doing
[11:56] <herve> Burgundavia, later, I'm with my family
[01:22] <Nafallo> morning all
[02:29] <Nafallo> dholbach: that last statement seems a bit off IMHO
[02:30] <Nafallo> :-)
[03:03] <dholbach> who wants to add something to the MOTU report?
[03:08] <Nafallo> dholbach: we're is the draft? :-)
[03:08] <tseng> bur[n] er: i can install blam just fine
[03:08] <tseng> bur[n] er: er burgandiva..
[03:08] <Nafallo> hi tseng :-)
[03:08] <dholbach> Nafallo: not in the net yet, just tell me, what you want to see in there :-)
[03:08] <tseng> hi
[03:09] <Nafallo> dholbach: "We _ROCK_!!!" :-)
[03:09] <dholbach> ok :-)
[03:10] <Nafallo> you people deserve that statement :-)
[03:11] <tseng> ogra: ?
[03:11] <tseng> ajmitch_: ?
[03:11] <Nafallo> *sigh* I hate my downstream
[03:11] <ogra> tseng, i have a fixed tomboy package for you if you like
[03:11] <tseng> ogra: rock on !
[03:11] <tseng> ogra: his patch was bad
[03:11] <ogra> and for the wrong version....
[03:11] <Nafallo> my mirror was just synced, started 10 HOURS ago.
[03:12] <ogra> tseng, http://www.grawert.net/mono/
[03:13] <Nafallo> hmm, 1G on the other hand :-P
[03:13] <tseng> the beagle stuff is?
[03:13] <ogra> not ready yet
[03:13] <tseng> ok.
[03:13] <tseng> changes to mine?
[03:13] <ogra> missing manpages etc
[03:13] <ogra> do you have a 0.0.9 ?
[03:13] <tseng> its in NEW
[03:13] <ogra> i havent found one
[03:13] <ogra> ah, ok
[03:14] <tseng> I did not review manpage love
[03:14] <ogra> hmm, i built mine new from source... so i think i should wait for the sync...
[03:17] <tseng> http://tseng.ath.cx/log/?p=20
[03:17] <tseng> sweet i got trolled on my own blog
[03:19] <tfheen> heh
[03:19] <Nafallo> lol
[03:19] <ogra> heh
[03:19] <tseng> I clearly dont know the difference
[03:44] <tseng> ogra: uploaded your tomboy
[03:44] <ogra> thanks :)
[03:45] <tseng> thank you.
[03:46] <tseng> ogra: today I want to work on getting aac gstreamer plugins built
[03:46] <tseng> faac and faad
[03:46] <tseng> that would be rad
[03:46] <ogra> yeah
[03:47] <tseng> thinking about gst-plugins-multiverse
[03:47] <ogra> cool
[03:47] <tseng> (the libs are in universe/multi)
[03:47] <ogra> yep
[03:50] <tseng> that kind of sucks
[03:50] <tseng> i cant add aac support to gtkpod in universe if the lib is in multiverse
[03:50] <tseng> right?
[03:51] <ogra> it should be...
[04:03] <Nafallo> dooh!
[04:05] <dholbach> it's out
[04:08] <Nafallo> tseng: http://www.magicalforest.se/~nafallo/haircut/ ;-)
[04:14] <Nafallo> I believe I look more decent now than before ;-)
[04:19] <Nafallo> tseng: ping?
[04:23] <ogra> darn, tomboy is missing a uudecode build-dependency
[04:30] <ogra> tseng, fixed the missing sharutils build-dep in tomboy, ok if i upload ?
[05:03] <dholbach> hey herve
[05:05] <tseng> ogra: yes
[05:06] <ogra> fine
[05:06] <tseng> ogra: ajmitch_ http://tseng.ath.cx/photos/index.php?galerie=udu&snimek=104 < mono team rocks!
[05:06] <ogra> yay
[05:07] <tseng> after lunch i need to finish up monodevelop deps
[05:07] <tseng> but im hearing gecko#-2 doesnt build on mono 1.1.7
[05:07] <tseng> (yet)
[05:09] <herve> ogra, you're on the right if I remember your face?
[05:09] <ogra> yep
[05:10] <dholbach> bye
[05:11] <herve> ogra, who are the others?
[05:12] <dholbach> the one looking stupid on every picture is me :-)
[05:12] <dholbach> like on 101
[05:13] <ogra> herve, left is tseng center is ajmitch_
[05:15] <dholbach> *wave*
[05:19] <herve> http://tseng.ath.cx/photos/index.php?galerie=udu&snimek=4&exif_style=&show_thumbs=
[05:19] <herve> this is mako, right?
[05:26] <ogra> herve, thats Mithrandir
[05:28] <tseng> http://tseng.ath.cx/photos/index.php?galerie=udu&snimek=61
[05:28] <tseng> thats mako
[05:38] <tfheen> tseng: http://tseng.ath.cx/photos/index.php?galerie=udu&snimek=23&exif_style=&show_thumbs= is such an excellent picture.  mjg59 and hal, mjg59 seems very, very happy
[05:39] <tseng> tfheen: yes :)
[05:39] <tseng> its the MAGIC*
[05:39] <tseng> for some reason original stopped counting # of views on each picture
[05:44] <tseng> latexer has a patch for blam for whoever was complaining
[05:44] <ogra> Nafallo
[05:45] <tseng> ill fix that after lunch also
[05:46] <tseng> hm and sync with debian while im at it
[05:47] <Lathiat> damn, the FTBFS list is rather long
[06:04] <tseng> blam fix is in
[06:09] <tseng> bbl
[07:35] <Nafallo> tip for everyone. DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT look at the second season of dead zone if you can't handle very motionfull programs.
[07:36] <Nafallo> s/want/wants/
[07:37] <Nafallo> s/motion/emotion/
[07:53] <Treenaks> Nafallo: [spoilers]  why not?
[07:55] <Nafallo> Treenaks: the emotions between episodes 11-15 is tense, every one of those made me cry ;-).
[07:56] <Treenaks> Nafallo: lots of TV programs make me cry.. but for other reasons ;)
[07:56] <Nafallo> I've only watched up to 15 yet :-P
[07:56] <Nafallo> Treenaks: hehe. those has intelligent in them ;-)
[07:57] <Nafallo> intelligens even
[08:37] <Burgundavia> tseng, thanks
[08:38] <tseng> for?
[08:38] <Burgundavia> the blam fix
[08:38] <Burgundavia> now I can have news crack
[08:40] <tseng> rock on
[08:43] <Nafallo> tseng: rock! that's the way :-)
[08:43] <tseng> we'll see
[08:43] <Lathiat> oh yhoh yeh
[08:43] <Lathiat> blah
[08:43] <Lathiat> oh yeh
[08:43] <Lathiat> tseng: i meant to send thanks about that too. :)
[08:43] <Lathiat> was pissing my rss crack
[08:44] <Lathiat> damnit
[08:44] <Lathiat> im too tired to be ircing
[08:45] <Burgundavia> tseng, are there any debug options for blam? as i couldn't get any useful info out of it as to why it wasn't working
[08:45] <tseng> edit the wrapper script to call mono --debug blam.exe
[08:46] <tseng> but this particular bug didnt show anything
[08:46] <tseng> just a helpful tip in general
[08:48] <Burgundavia> ok, thanks
[08:55] <ivoks> hi
[08:55] <ivoks> i'm trying to debianize wifi-radar package for breezy
[08:58] <Burgundavia> if I provide a patch against a .desktop file, should I diff against the .desktop file or the whole package?
[09:08] <bur[n] er> ivoks: i'll test it :)  i've been waiting for wifi radar.deb :)
[09:09] <Nafallo> ahh, that thing
[09:14] <ivoks> bur[n] er it's done
[09:14] <ivoks> bur[n] er URL in couple of minutes
[09:24] <ivoks> http://www.grad.hr/~ivoks/ubuntu
[09:25] <ivoks> well, i know it's pice of cake to create that deb, but this is my first one :)
[09:36] <bur[n] er> i have no idea how to make a .deb from .py files
[09:36] <bur[n] er> seems hard to me
[09:38] <ivoks> ?
[09:40] <ivoks> try it, I added .desktop and changed wifi-radar.sh to use gksudo instead of sudo
[09:41] <ivoks> i'll be back...
[09:53] <ivoks> ok... couple of fixes...
[09:55] <ivoks> ok, that's finall -1 release :)
[10:15] <Nafallo> digital cameras work on breezy?
[10:31] <tseng> Burgundavia: rock on.
[10:32] <Nafallo> or is it the same error as usbkeys, flashdrives and stuff?
[10:51] <fitheach> hi
[10:53] <Nafallo> ogra: ?
[10:53] <ogra> Nafallo, ?
[10:53] <Nafallo> ogra: you never told me what you thought about my branch so far ;-).
[10:54] <ogra> nice, do you provide it to others ?
[10:54] <ogra> or is it your private mirror ?
[10:55] <Nafallo> ogra: ahh :-). people are allowed to use it, if they like the speed ;-).
[10:55] <ogra> heh
[10:56] <Nafallo> ogra: only got 512/512kb :-P
[10:56] <Nafallo> ogra: I will provide my scripts though :-)
[10:56] <Nafallo> ogra: and logs :-)
[10:56] <ogra> just because i think its a bit overkill to pull several GB for a private mirror
[10:56] <ogra> thats why i asked :)
[10:57] <Nafallo> ogra: well, if I want to get the source for openoffice for exampel, I don't have to wait for the 76MB :-).
[10:58] <Nafallo> ogra: also, when security updates comes in, all three computers doesn't have to download it :-).
[10:58] <Nafallo> ogra: and the best reason; because I can ;-)
[10:58] <Nafallo> hmm, I should put this on the webpage :-P
[10:58] <ogra> thats a usecase, but you still pull a lot of stuff you'll never use...
[10:58] <Nafallo> ogra: thanks for inspiration :-).
[10:59] <Nafallo> ogra: ofcourse. and I pull it from se.archive.ubuntu.com :-).
[10:59] <ogra> heh
[10:59] <Nafallo> ogra: swedish university, so no bandwidth costs for them :-)
[11:00] <ogra> i know... its maswan's and Mithrandir's territory ;)
[11:00] <Nafallo> ogra: cvs.gnome.org is there to :-). and cdimage.debian.org.
[11:01] <tseng> the packaging of gst-plugins is very interesting
[11:01] <Nafallo> ogra: I'll add more stuff I probably won't use later :-). I plan to build install-isos daily when breezy starts with that :-).
[11:01] <tseng> everything is built by substitution
[11:03] <Nafallo> ogra: btw, do you recognize the layout? ;-)
[11:03] <ogra> yep
[11:05] <ogra> did you test it in explorer ? ;)
[11:05] <ogra> explorer isnt able to show these nice dotted lines...
[11:05] <Nafallo> ogra: I don't use MS products :-)
[11:05] <ogra> heh
[11:06] <Nafallo> ogra: and if IE can't handle W3C standards they might aswell go to hell for what I care ;-).
[11:06] <ogra> heh
[11:06] <Nafallo> ogra: and yes. I've told my teacher in webdesign that ;-)
[11:07] <ogra> hehe
[11:07] <Nafallo> ...and she probably hates me quite a bit now :-).
[11:07] <Nafallo> :-D
[11:09] <tfheen> well, webdesign classes where you're not taught that w3c is the holy grail (more or less) are probably useless.
[11:10] <Nafallo> tfheen: if I put it this way... she want's us to use 600px centered tables just because she thinks it's standard :-P.
[11:11] <tfheen> Nafallo: sounds like a waste of your time.
[11:12] <Nafallo> tfheen: naah, I get to take a studyloan and have a _must do_ for fixing a homepage for the domain :-).
[11:12] <Nafallo> tfheen: I already got grades for the course ;-)
[11:12] <ogra> so you use frontpage in wine there *g* ?
[11:13] <tfheen> Nafallo: you know, loans must be paid back. ;)
[11:13] <Nafallo> tfheen: and money is a must have, unfortunatly.
[11:13] <tfheen> I've never really considered that a problem, but I'm lucky.
[11:14] <Nafallo> ogra: I did s/FrontPage/Screem/g && s/Paint\ Shop\ Pro/GIMP/g first thing I did :-).
[11:14] <ogra> :)
[11:14] <Nafallo> tfheen: you must be :-). but well, I'll get a job soon hopefully :-).
[11:16] <Nafallo> tfheen: that means I see you in the autumn if I do :-)
[11:16] <tfheen> you're in .se; you should just come visit sometime or something.
[11:17] <Nafallo> tfheen: I've told Simira the same thing for you two when I spent time on #debian-women :-).
[11:17] <tfheen> are you coming to debconf?
[11:18] <tfheen> you should.  It's fun.
[11:18] <Nafallo> tfheen: probably not, I don't have the job yet. have to save money for next ubuntu conference :-).
[11:19] <tfheen> do useful work, get sponsored.
[11:19] <tfheen> works for most people . ;)
[11:19] <Nafallo> tfheen: you were in Trondheim, right? :-)
[11:19] <tfheen> ATM, yes.
[11:19] <tfheen> moving to Oslo in a couple of months.
[11:19] <Nafallo> tfheen: :-). have to learn the programming-dance first :-).
[11:20] <Nafallo> tfheen: oooh, Oslo is _way_ closer :-)
[11:20] <tfheen> the programming part is easy, it's the "how-the-fuck-do-I-design-this-thing-so-I-can-maintain-it" part which is hard.
[11:21] <Nafallo> tfheen: lol :-). as you can see I'm probably starting in the wrong end ;-).
[11:21] <tfheen> probably, but we'll beat you with a stick until you get the design part right too.  It's not that hard, really.  Usually at least.
[11:22] <Nafallo> tfheen: I know :-). the weird thing is that I like it ;-).
[11:22] <tfheen> :P
[11:23] <Nafallo> tfheen: I shall probably wear my chainmail when meeting you IRL ;-).
[11:23] <tfheen> Nafallo: well, both Simira and I are LARP people, so we'll just wear swords then. ;)
[11:23] <Nafallo> tfheen: dang! ;-)
[11:24] <Nafallo> tfheen: but axe would be better, you know ;-).
[11:24] <tfheen> axe is slow.
[11:24] <tfheen> dodging axes is actually fairly easy.
[11:24] <Nafallo> tfheen: but it cuts throw the chainmail...
[11:24] <tfheen> so does a nice sword, pike or stiletto
[11:25] <Nafallo> tfheen: meeh! now you're just mean :-).
[11:25] <Nafallo> tfheen: that would cut throw leather to :-P.
[11:26] <tfheen> true enough
[11:26] <tfheen> the hint is either to catch people's weapons or don't get hit.
[11:26] <Nafallo> tfheen: hehehe
[11:27] <tfheen> at least with LARP weapons, wearing a cloak is a brilliant thing.  hold it up and you can catch a lot of slashes in it.
[11:28] <Nafallo> tfheen: dang. you have lot's to teach me :-).
[11:28] <tfheen> you're not LARPing, just wandering around in chainmail?
[11:50] <ogra> tseng, looks like a missing gtk-sharp is blocking tomboy....
[11:50] <ogra> (on amd64
[11:50] <ogra> )
[11:50] <Nafallo> what a surprise :-P
[11:51] <ogra> i'll trigger a rebuild if thats ok..