| === Burgundavia [~corey@S01060010dcc226d1.du.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jsgotangco | good morning | 02:45 |
|---|---|---|
| Burgundavia | salut | 02:46 |
| jsgotangco | Burgundavia, what is happening? | 02:46 |
| Burgundavia | not much | 02:47 |
| jsgotangco | even svn isn't active | 02:47 |
| jsgotangco | :( | 02:47 |
| Burgundavia | no | 02:47 |
| Burgundavia | I need to email elmo my new key | 02:47 |
| Burgundavia | and then I will get active | 02:48 |
| jsgotangco | ok | 02:48 |
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| === thegreedyturtle [~thegreedy@user-0c93oto.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jsgotangco | thegreedyturtle, hi there | 04:17 |
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| thegreedyturtle | hey jsgo, sorry i was idle | 05:36 |
| thegreedyturtle | still kinda am ;) | 05:36 |
| jsgotangco | no worries | 05:37 |
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| Burgundavia | hey | 05:42 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 05:42 |
| Burgundavia | quick summary | 05:42 |
| Burgundavia | we want a web way to editing our docs in svn, using docbook | 05:42 |
| Burgundavia | froud has investigated apache lenya | 05:42 |
| Burgundavia | seems like it meets our needs | 05:42 |
| Burgundavia | we need a dev to look at it and give and upcheck/downcheck | 05:43 |
| jdub | a 'web way'? | 05:43 |
| Burgundavia | editing online, ala a wiki, but into the svn repos | 05:43 |
| jdub | using docbook syntax? | 05:44 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 05:44 |
| jdub | so writing docbook syntax into an html form that gets shunted into svn.. | 05:45 |
| Burgundavia | yes, I believe so | 05:45 |
| jdub | that seems remarkably breakable and complicated for simple document editing procedures | 05:45 |
| Burgundavia | I have not played with lenya myself | 05:45 |
| Burgundavia | we are looking to involve a great many people in doc editing | 05:45 |
| Burgundavia | provide a single source | 05:45 |
| Burgundavia | and keep our existing infrastructure | 05:45 |
| jdub | that sounds like using an svn or baz repository directly to me - i don't understand the web page requirement | 05:46 |
| Burgundavia | the web requirement is to lower the exisiting barrier to editing | 05:46 |
| Burgundavia | think of this as rosetta vs a gnome-translator | 05:46 |
| jdub | it doesn't lower the barrier usefully | 05:47 |
| jdub | the writer still has to author docbook | 05:47 |
| jsgotangco | can i make a comment | 05:47 |
| jdub | and they're stuck in an htmlarea instead of a text editor | 05:47 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, jump in | 05:47 |
| jsgotangco | i still don't see the point of the portal since the manual author still has to dump his thoughts in an html text area | 05:48 |
| jdub | (i see lenya has some element of wysiwyg editing, but has an awful chunk of infrastructure underneath it) | 05:48 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 05:48 |
| jsgotangco | (the awful chunk of intfrastructure can be the xslt stuff) | 05:49 |
| Burgundavia | the team almost ripped itself apart in January discussing major changes | 05:49 |
| Burgundavia | we decided that the path of least resistance was to develop a web portal to our existing docbook/svn stuff | 05:49 |
| jdub | that sounds like a heck of a lot of wasted time to me | 05:50 |
| Burgundavia | can you suggest a better solution (I am asking seriously) | 05:51 |
| jdub | sorry, but a good editor, sensible revision control (svn or preferably baz) and useful preview tools (yelp) are all you need to start writing and contributing good documentation | 05:51 |
| Burgundavia | what about single source? | 05:52 |
| Burgundavia | I want to remove all docs from the wiki (hopefully) | 05:52 |
| jdub | so, you have to get used to the idea that it will never happen :) | 05:53 |
| jsgotangco | i still like our current setup | 05:53 |
| jsgotangco | (its quite simple really) | 05:53 |
| === Burgundavia is very very frustrated now | ||
| jdub | official documentation in revision control and in the distro (packages) is hugely beneficial | 05:53 |
| === Burgundavia really really really should have been at UDU | ||
| jdub | because you have a clear place to contribute (both docs, translations, etc) | 05:54 |
| jdub | and a clear delivery path (packages in the distro) | 05:54 |
| jdub | you could also autogenerate them for a website | 05:54 |
| Burgundavia | what about on the web? | 05:54 |
| jdub | if you want to deliver them to a website, that's really simple | 05:55 |
| jdub | there will always be stuff going on in the wiki | 05:55 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 05:55 |
| Burgundavia | I am talking single source | 05:55 |
| Burgundavia | the wiki is currently filled with crap, from our perspective | 05:56 |
| jdub | in fact, having the wiki makes finding people for the documentation team so much easier | 05:56 |
| Burgundavia | most of what we are discussing has been hashed out many times on the doc team lists | 05:56 |
| jdub | we can pluck great contributors from the wiki into the doc team, and get them working on the distro docs | 05:56 |
| Burgundavia | I am trying to move forward what we discussed there | 05:56 |
| jdub | ok, so my suggestion for moving forward: | 05:57 |
| jdub | * docbook in revision control | 05:57 |
| Burgundavia | but you are failing to address the major issue that still exists | 05:57 |
| jdub | * attempt to automate package building for testing purposes | 05:57 |
| jdub | * do some gonzo web delivery for testing purposes, maybe spruce it up and make it sexy later on | 05:57 |
| Burgundavia | what about getting it back from the web? | 05:58 |
| jdub | * hack more talk less! :) | 05:58 |
| jsgotangco | jdub, ROCK | 05:58 |
| Burgundavia | I am trying to get something together here | 05:58 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, to be honest, you are not helping | 05:58 |
| Burgundavia | I am very very mad now | 05:58 |
| jdub | well, further down the track we could look into doing documentation commentary like php.net, but in the distro instead of on the web | 05:58 |
| jsgotangco | Burgundavia, i don't seewhy we have to complicate this to be honest | 05:58 |
| jdub | but there's no point making things complicated to start with | 05:58 |
| jsgotangco | my problem at the moment is that no one is pulling docs from svn except some people | 05:59 |
| Burgundavia | I am going to walk away, and when I come back, I am going to post a message to the devel list about what the doc team has dicussed, what we have found, and where we need to move | 05:59 |
| jsgotangco | our svn is still empty | 05:59 |
| jdub | jsgotangco: empty? | 05:59 |
| jdub | i thought all the distro doc bits were in it | 05:59 |
| jsgotangco | empty as in old docs | 05:59 |
| jsgotangco | i meant it still has old docs | 06:00 |
| jsgotangco | its not really moving that much | 06:00 |
| jdub | yeah | 06:00 |
| jsgotangco | just look at the commit list | 06:00 |
| jdub | seems there's more discussion about infrastructure issues than actual doc hacking :) | 06:00 |
| jsgotangco | i know | 06:00 |
| jsgotangco | thats why i believe froud is getting frustrated at this | 06:00 |
| jsgotangco | this is not a complicated issue | 06:01 |
| jsgotangco | jdub, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-May/002220.html | 06:03 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 06:04 |
| Burgundavia | sorry, needed to blow off steam | 06:04 |
| Burgundavia | Sean and I have spent the past 2 months talking about this issue | 06:04 |
| Burgundavia | and this is what we came up with | 06:04 |
| Burgundavia | so, yes there has already been a lot of talk | 06:04 |
| Burgundavia | this is about how to move it forward | 06:04 |
| jdub | i don't see the necessity for a "web portal" to move forward | 06:05 |
| jdub | we already have the tools | 06:05 |
| Burgundavia | basically, I said, we need a web way to edit stuff | 06:05 |
| jdub | but you don't | 06:05 |
| Burgundavia | sean said, lets not lose the exisiting infrastructure | 06:05 |
| jsgotangco | jdub, would it be possible to consider this for the future instead for this release cycle | 06:05 |
| jdub | you have a much better tool on your hard disk | 06:06 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, no | 06:06 |
| jdub | a web browser is a hideous place to write docbook | 06:06 |
| Burgundavia | at least let us try and then fail | 06:06 |
| jdub | you actually have all the tools you need already | 06:06 |
| Burgundavia | before you condemn us to fail beforehand | 06:06 |
| Burgundavia | I find that very annoying | 06:06 |
| jdub | i'm not saying it will fail | 06:06 |
| jsgotangco | i can only imagine our portal becoming like the wiki sorry but that's how i feel about this | 06:06 |
| jdub | i'm saying you have everything you need to write and publish documentation | 06:07 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, we can control access to a web portal much easier | 06:07 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, I am saying we don't | 06:07 |
| jdub | you don't need a web portal to write docs | 06:07 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, you don't need rosettta to translate either, by the same logic | 06:07 |
| jdub | that's absolutely true | 06:07 |
| Burgundavia | but it makes it easier | 06:08 |
| Burgundavia | this is about making it easier | 06:08 |
| Burgundavia | Ubuntu is about making it easier | 06:08 |
| jdub | dude | 06:08 |
| jdub | emotional argument is not useful argument | 06:08 |
| Burgundavia | I am just very frustrating | 06:08 |
| Burgundavia | because we have a workable solution | 06:09 |
| Burgundavia | froud has tested it | 06:09 |
| Burgundavia | we just need a dev to implement it | 06:09 |
| jdub | no, dude | 06:09 |
| jdub | this is silliness | 06:09 |
| jdub | you already have all the tools you need | 06:09 |
| jdub | every other project out there has written documentation without a 'web portal' | 06:09 |
| Burgundavia | most docs suck | 06:09 |
| Burgundavia | and they don't involve the community | 06:09 |
| jdub | in exactly the same way that every other project out there has translations done in emacs | 06:09 |
| jdub | that is incorrect | 06:09 |
| Burgundavia | suffice it to say that we need a better way. We really do. The web is a very easy tool to getting people involved | 06:10 |
| Burgundavia | lets harness that | 06:10 |
| jdub | i'm sorry, but this is emotional claptrap | 06:10 |
| jdub | a) you don't need a better way, you need to actually write docs | 06:11 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, that is rude | 06:11 |
| jdub | b) you don't need more people involved, you need a small team doing great work - *then* you can scale up | 06:11 |
| jdub | this is infrastructural fantasy stuff | 06:11 |
| jdub | the point about rosetta is fine, but translation has actually scaled to the point where rosetta can be useful | 06:14 |
| jdub | documentation, within ubuntu, has not | 06:14 |
| jdub | a better first step would be to have web based commentary on documentation, like php | 06:15 |
| jdub | then integrating that with yelp, the documentation reader in gnome | 06:15 |
| Burgundavia | commentary on docs? | 06:15 |
| jdub | that will allow people to contribute to the documentation in a useful way, and have documentors operating as editors of those contributions | 06:16 |
| jdub | further down the track, using something similar to monodoc for user contributions far beyond commentary would be great | 06:16 |
| jdub | but it's very, very important to start small and scale up | 06:16 |
| Burgundavia | then fundamentally is the difference between that and what I am proposing? | 06:16 |
| jdub | i'm talking about the future | 06:16 |
| jdub | nice things to have | 06:16 |
| Burgundavia | I think the people will appear "when you build it" | 06:16 |
| jdub | they're entirely unnecessary for writing documentation right now, however | 06:17 |
| jdub | we have the best tools to hand already | 06:17 |
| jdub | revision control (svn or even better, baz) | 06:17 |
| Burgundavia | we currently use svn, talk to us later about changing | 06:17 |
| Burgundavia | we are also not going to change from docbook | 06:18 |
| jdub | emacs or vi with docbook/xml editing helpers, or even conglomerate if it's stable enough | 06:18 |
| Burgundavia | thus, we need an easy way to involve people | 06:18 |
| Burgundavia | conglomerate is not | 06:18 |
| jdub | ok, the easy way to involve people is this: | 06:18 |
| Burgundavia | I use bluefish myself | 06:18 |
| jdub | do absolutely fantastic work and inspire people to get on board | 06:18 |
| Burgundavia | look, docs are glamourous | 06:19 |
| Burgundavia | every single barrier, no matter how small, that is in the way migth be the showstopper | 06:19 |
| Burgundavia | observe gnome docs | 06:19 |
| jdub | i understand | 06:19 |
| jdub | ah, gnome documentation has different problems | 06:19 |
| jdub | related to scaling and branching | 06:19 |
| Burgundavia | on the web eliminates a huge barrier of getting another program and learning how to use that, etc. | 06:19 |
| jdub | no, it doesn't significantly help | 06:20 |
| jdub | unless the user doesn't have to write docbook | 06:20 |
| Burgundavia | I don't want documentors to have to deal with version control | 06:20 |
| Burgundavia | taht should just happen | 06:20 |
| jdub | which can be done with desktop tools too :) | 06:20 |
| Burgundavia | which ones? | 06:20 |
| Burgundavia | eSVN? | 06:20 |
| jdub | no | 06:20 |
| jdub | dude | 06:20 |
| jdub | scale up | 06:20 |
| jdub | forget this infrastructure fancy | 06:21 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, I am saying we will scale when we have the structure in place | 06:21 |
| jdub | the important thing is to do great work - that's what gets people interested to help out | 06:21 |
| jdub | you don't need to scale now | 06:21 |
| jdub | you need to start | 06:21 |
| Burgundavia | please just implement the lenya thing, and then we can talk | 06:22 |
| Burgundavia | we can make that an official request, if you want | 06:22 |
| jdub | "then we can talk"? | 06:22 |
| jdub | dude | 06:22 |
| jdub | seriously | 06:22 |
| jsgotangco | Burgundavia, that didnt sound right | 06:22 |
| === Burgundavia thought this would be easy | ||
| jdub | it's not easy because it's not right or compeling | 06:23 |
| jdub | compelling | 06:23 |
| jdub | the doc team doesn't need more infrastructure to write docs | 06:23 |
| jdub | it needs more docs :-) | 06:23 |
| jdub | that's what will get people interested | 06:24 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, have you read through the backlog of this channel and doc-list? | 06:24 |
| jdub | one of the past gnome doc team leaders learnt docbook specifically to contribute | 06:24 |
| jdub | i know guys who've learnt C to contribute to gnome | 06:24 |
| Burgundavia | I am trying to find the email exchange mark, sean and I had | 06:24 |
| Burgundavia | just a sec | 06:24 |
| jsgotangco | Burgundavia, irclog no, but doc-list yes, for me its all pointless as no one is pulling docs from svn | 06:25 |
| jsgotangco | svn is all that matters to me at the moment | 06:25 |
| jdub | the real lesson here is not to get bogged down in irrelevant details | 06:25 |
| jdub | start small, kick arse, scale when necessary, not before | 06:26 |
| jdub | i understand the attraction, but i've seen way too many projects kill themselves doing things that are unrelated to their real goals | 06:27 |
| jdub | i have to get some lunch :-) | 06:27 |
| jsgotangco | me too | 06:28 |
| jsgotangco | jdub, thanks for the time | 06:28 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, take a read through this thread --> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-April/001755.html | 06:28 |
| jdub | so i just had a long walk to get lunch | 06:58 |
| jdub | and thought about a bunch of the problems | 06:58 |
| jsgotangco | sounds good i just arrived from lunch as well | 07:00 |
| jdub | i think the first part is really basic | 07:00 |
| jdub | this talk about a web portal assumes that the major role of the doc team is 'writing docs' | 07:00 |
| jdub | where really, it isn't | 07:01 |
| jdub | at least not this early on | 07:01 |
| jdub | there's an enormous amount we can do simply by using what we have, and integrating it in a more useful way | 07:01 |
| jdub | there's very little that needs to be done from scratch | 07:01 |
| jdub | *very* little | 07:01 |
| Burgundavia | that is the point of lenya | 07:04 |
| Burgundavia | it is already a fairly mature app | 07:04 |
| jdub | oh, dude, come on | 07:05 |
| Burgundavia | in fact, they just added some measure of WYSIWYG editing | 07:05 |
| jsgotangco | ok i want to base on my experience im no docbook expert at all, sean took the time to mentor me and most of what I know came from him but it didnt stop me from doing stuff in what we currently have in a learning standpoint it is very interesting but can be intimidating to the new user | 07:05 |
| jsgotangco | id rather have contributors who know some level of docbook or at least willing to bitethe bullet instead of giving them toned-down tools | 07:06 |
| jsgotangco | too much abstraction muddles things | 07:06 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, jsgotangco, sorry, my ex is calling, I must run | 07:07 |
| jdub | Burgundavia: "the point of lenya" is not to realise that we hardly need to write new docs at all | 07:07 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, say again? | 07:07 |
| jdub | i've relayed a thought about hardly needing to write docs at all, and you've somehow related it to a document writing tool | 07:08 |
| jdub | it ends up sounding silly after a while | 07:08 |
| Burgundavia | I am still not understanding what you are saying | 07:08 |
| jsgotangco | hmm you mean using technology for the sake of technology instead of your end goal? | 07:08 |
| Burgundavia | web based writing is not technology for the sake of technology | 07:09 |
| jdub | Burgundavia: you inserted your current argument into an unrelated point | 07:09 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 07:09 |
| jdub | here's me saying we don't need to write new docs | 07:09 |
| jdub | and here's you saying "this is what a doc writing tool is for!" | 07:10 |
| jdub | it doesn't gel | 07:10 |
| jdub | and it sounds silly | 07:10 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 07:10 |
| Burgundavia | what I got from you is that current tools are suffecient not "we don't need to write new docs" | 07:11 |
| jdub | oddly, i'm saying both | 07:11 |
| Burgundavia | what do you mean about writing new docs? | 07:12 |
| jdub | but the latter is a new thought | 07:12 |
| Burgundavia | are you saying we just need to collate what is out there? | 07:12 |
| Burgundavia | that is total crack | 07:12 |
| jdub | it is not total crack | 07:12 |
| jdub | we have a wealth of documentation already | 07:12 |
| jsgotangco | it makes sense reusing what we currently have | 07:12 |
| jdub | and it is inadequately presented to users | 07:12 |
| Burgundavia | good docs are visual | 07:12 |
| jsgotangco | we just have to weed out the crack ones | 07:12 |
| Burgundavia | visual requires screenshots/etc. | 07:12 |
| Burgundavia | which are by there very nature Ubuntu specific | 07:13 |
| jdub | but you're assuming that requires fresh new documentation | 07:13 |
| Burgundavia | at the very least, it requires major refactoring of exisiting docs | 07:13 |
| jdub | and ignoring the massive benefits we can give to users from existing works | 07:14 |
| jdub | no dude | 07:14 |
| jdub | even before refactoring | 07:14 |
| jdub | there is a lot we can do | 07:14 |
| jdub | for instance | 07:14 |
| Burgundavia | sorry, really have to go this time | 07:14 |
| jdub | early in the warty cycle | 07:14 |
| Burgundavia | my ex is here | 07:14 |
| Burgundavia | countinue what you have to say | 07:14 |
| Burgundavia | I can read in the scrollback | 07:14 |
| Burgundavia | and respond later | 07:14 |
| jdub | i suggested (and thom implemented) integration of the debian doc metadata and OMF | 07:14 |
| jdub | suddenly, we almost doubled the documentation available in yelp | 07:15 |
| jdub | that's a huge win | 07:15 |
| jdub | with very little work | 07:15 |
| jsgotangco | jdub, most argue that no one reads documentation in yelp | 07:15 |
| jdub | just pulling together stuff we already have | 07:15 |
| jdub | jsgotangco: well hey, lots of people argue that no one reads documentation :-) | 07:15 |
| jsgotangco | ok same goes then so we have so much stuff in the wiki | 07:16 |
| jsgotangco | some are gold, some are crack | 07:16 |
| jsgotangco | i still believe we can weed out the crack in that | 07:16 |
| jdub | (i don't think either argument has much merit) | 07:16 |
| jsgotangco | and integrate in current svn | 07:16 |
| jdub | yeah, there's a bunch of stuff we can do there | 07:17 |
| jdub | but there's way more we can do without even touching a line of docbook | 07:17 |
| === thegreedyturtle [~thegreedy@user-0c93oto.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| jsgotangco | we all agreed in UDU that our wiki needs a facelift thats why we had a bof for that | 07:17 |
| jdub | yeah, switching away from zwiki will make life simpler | 07:18 |
| jdub | that was an unfortunate mistake | 07:18 |
| jsgotangco | i still believe that since docbook gets frozen our wiki is the natural exgtension of the documentation therefore needs tighter controls | 07:18 |
| jdub | the wiki needs tighter controls? | 07:18 |
| jsgotangco | well at least have someone review what people have been posting on it | 07:19 |
| thegreedyturtle | 'hoy | 07:19 |
| jdub | yes | 07:19 |
| jdub | it needs farming | 07:19 |
| thegreedyturtle | i kinda disagree with that, i think that the wiki needs to be very free, and then the docteam takes the best of it and moves it into the official docs | 07:20 |
| jsgotangco | we shouldn't remove its collaborative nature | 07:20 |
| jdub | thegreedyturtle: (you're not disagreeing) | 07:20 |
| thegreedyturtle | im disagreeing with the statement that the wiki needs tighter controls | 07:20 |
| jdub | thegreedyturtle: jsgotangco just clarified that | 07:20 |
| thegreedyturtle | mm, im not so sure about even review myself though | 07:21 |
| thegreedyturtle | it would be good for keeping the wiki organized though | 07:21 |
| jdub | every good wiki needs farmers | 07:21 |
| jsgotangco | you end up with ambigious docs | 07:22 |
| thegreedyturtle | clarify farmers? | 07:22 |
| jsgotangco | farmers weed stuff | 07:22 |
| jdub | people who roam the wiki, tidying stuff up, culling the crap, etc. | 07:22 |
| thegreedyturtle | got it | 07:22 |
| jsgotangco | so far mdke is doing good work on that | 07:22 |
| thegreedyturtle | is mdke post on the list at all? i don't have the names matched to the irc handles yet | 07:24 |
| jsgotangco | im sure contributors are interested in learning some docbook | 07:24 |
| jsgotangco | thegreedyturtle, mdke is matthew east | 07:24 |
| thegreedyturtle | ok | 07:24 |
| jsgotangco | jdub is jeff waugh | 07:24 |
| thegreedyturtle | thanks | 07:25 |
| thegreedyturtle | being fairly new myself, i think the biggest hurdle for new people isn't actually the docbook formats, but accessing the repositories | 07:26 |
| jsgotangco | hmmm you mean by committing or just accessing | 07:27 |
| jsgotangco | its not that difficult | 07:27 |
| thegreedyturtle | a bit of both, and i know it's not difficult, but consider what happens when someone checks out the document source code | 07:27 |
| thegreedyturtle | they suddenly get this huge dump of code, and it's easy to get overwhelmed | 07:28 |
| thegreedyturtle | and then: what to do next? | 07:28 |
| jsgotangco | well you check out svn because you expect that stuff right | 07:28 |
| thegreedyturtle | well, you check out the svn because you expect it, and I check out the svn because I expect it, but someone who just wants to submit a quick document about how they made something work would not want that stuff | 07:29 |
| thegreedyturtle | they just want to write a paper and feel good about it - which is why wikis are so popular... which brings us back to the root | 07:29 |
| jsgotangco | we can't put all that stuff in svn much less include every contribution | 07:30 |
| thegreedyturtle | very true - so the question here is how can we allow a user who doesn't want to deal with docbook and svn to contribute to something other than a wiki? | 07:31 |
| thegreedyturtle | the simple way is to use farmers | 07:32 |
| jdub | thegreedyturtle: further down the track - annotated documentation, either on the web or in yelp | 07:32 |
| jdub | but it's *further down the track* | 07:33 |
| jdub | no point worrying about it now | 07:33 |
| thegreedyturtle | righto | 07:33 |
| jsgotangco | ok we're going back to where we started, this is not a complicated thing some people have submitted docs in OOo or other format and we've publishedit as docbook | 07:34 |
| thegreedyturtle | so that's your earlier point about just getting something 'on paper' ? | 07:34 |
| thegreedyturtle | you are saying that someone submitted as OOo and someone else did the conversion for them, right? | 07:35 |
| jsgotangco | right | 07:35 |
| jsgotangco | (although OOo to Docbook isn't the cleanest thing available at the moment) | 07:36 |
| thegreedyturtle | from your experience, do you think that's scaleable? | 07:36 |
| thegreedyturtle | another question, one of you mentioned that the svn documents are all old? | 07:36 |
| thegreedyturtle | what are they old compared to? | 07:37 |
| thegreedyturtle | another repo, the wiki, ... ? | 07:37 |
| thegreedyturtle | (im kinda picking your brain now.. :) | 07:37 |
| jsgotangco | if you mean scaleable in a sense that we can do it for everyone everyday, no its not the most effective way but we don't do that everyday | 07:39 |
| jsgotangco | (i don't think traffic of that kind won't go up either) | 07:39 |
| jsgotangco | when I said old, i meant hoary old docs since we're in breezy, there are some stuff that may not be applicable now | 07:40 |
| thegreedyturtle | ok | 07:40 |
| jsgotangco | (if you look at the commit list nothing much has moved either) | 07:40 |
| jsgotangco | (which is understandable because we're still to early to do effective docs for breezy) | 07:41 |
| jdub | thegreedyturtle: luckily, we don't need to be concerned about scalability this early on :-) | 07:41 |
| jsgotangco | right | 07:41 |
| thegreedyturtle | you guys both running breezy right now? | 07:41 |
| jsgotangco | my other machine runs breezy | 07:41 |
| thegreedyturtle | is it worth running yet? | 07:42 |
| jsgotangco | i wouldn't use it as main of course | 07:42 |
| thegreedyturtle | ok | 07:43 |
| jsgotangco | but some people i met in UDU run breezy in their laptops | 07:43 |
| thegreedyturtle | mmm UDU, that was prolly lotsa fun neh? | 07:43 |
| jsgotangco | it was fun but it was work at the same time | 07:44 |
| jsgotangco | (we watched hitchiker's guide though) | 07:44 |
| thegreedyturtle | brb | 07:44 |
| thegreedyturtle | fun, work, what's the difference? | 07:48 |
| thegreedyturtle | what do you usually use to edit docbook, just an xml editor? | 07:49 |
| jsgotangco | heck even emacs will do | 07:50 |
| thegreedyturtle | yeah but I'm lazy... | 07:51 |
| jsgotangco | well being lazy won't start things really | 07:53 |
| thegreedyturtle | it's not a lazy as in start things, more lazy as in i want the convenience of a simple editor, but i guess it doesn't matter | 07:54 |
| jsgotangco | i like learning new stuff i guess it really depends on the person | 07:55 |
| thegreedyturtle | i like learning stuff too, but right now im up to my nostril hairs | 07:55 |
| thegreedyturtle | i have a subversion book to read, a docbook to read, and im still finishing essential sys admin, let alone my programming courses at college. I also want to at least get a small 'code portfolio' under my belt, and toss in a girlfriend... you get the idea :) | 07:57 |
| thegreedyturtle | and I still needs a job... | 07:57 |
| thegreedyturtle | hence, the easier it is to contribute, the more I'll be able to | 07:58 |
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| thegreedyturtle | anyhoo, im off to work on the above list, i appreciate your ear | 08:00 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, check your mail | 09:18 |
| jsgotangco | ok reading now | 09:22 |
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| jsgotangco | ok at least we'll know if we're go or no | 09:25 |
| Burgundavia | basically I am tired of talking this issue | 09:25 |
| Burgundavia | and jdub really really pissed me off | 09:25 |
| Burgundavia | we have hashed out nearly every detail, we just need the implementation now | 09:26 |
| jsgotangco | ill try out lenya myself later it looks mighty interesting | 09:27 |
| Burgundavia | lenya looks really really cool | 09:27 |
| Kinnison | Morning | 09:28 |
| Burgundavia | salut Kinnison | 09:28 |
| Burgundavia | I was arguing with more people today | 09:28 |
| Kinnison | heh | 09:28 |
| Burgundavia | this time it was jdub | 09:28 |
| Burgundavia | I aim high | 09:28 |
| === Kinnison grins | ||
| Burgundavia | tomorrow it will be mark | 09:32 |
| Burgundavia | oh wait, already done that | 09:32 |
| Burgundavia | bugzilla bug 8516 | 09:32 |
| Burgundavia | in other news, corey is looking forward to helping out more with malone | 09:33 |
| jsgotangco | spatial? | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | yep | 09:33 |
| jsgotangco | that was a nasty thread | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | Ubuntu spatial breaks usablity | 09:33 |
| Kinnison | Yeah, I don't like it, but my father does | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | the closing window way? | 09:33 |
| Kinnison | yep | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | seems to split the community | 09:33 |
| Kinnison | aye | 09:34 |
| Burgundavia | ala the menu bar thing | 09:34 |
| Kinnison | having a config option in breezy is a *must* IMO | 09:34 |
| Burgundavia | window vs global | 09:34 |
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| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, check your mail | 10:26 |
| jsgotangco | wait | 10:26 |
| jsgotangco | it might work but it'll take some time | 10:29 |
| Burgundavia | I just sent that to the list to highlight the importance of getting our portal up | 10:29 |
| jsgotangco | brb | 11:29 |
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| jdub | corey | 01:43 |
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| HappyFool | i've written a page on the ubuntu wiki, and one of the comments I've made is that it *might* be unsafe to edit /etc/modules -- is this overly conservative? What could realistically go wrong? (page is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IntelFiveThreeSixEPModemHowto) | 08:52 |
| HappyFool | oh, and hello ;) | 08:52 |
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| thegreedyturtle | meeting at #ubuntu-meeting | 09:09 |
| Burgundavia | indeed | 09:10 |
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| mvirkkil | Any news about the CD shipments? | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | we are not the correct people to ask | 10:10 |
| Burgundavia | and they will contact you when they ship, to confirm the addy | 10:10 |
| mvirkkil | Burgundavia: Just wondering. Didn't want to ask in ubuntu-devel either. Oh, well. Patience is a virtue :-) | 10:11 |
| Burgundavia | indeed | 10:12 |
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