[02:45] <jsgotangco> good morning
[02:46] <Burgundavia> salut
[02:46] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what is happening?
[02:47] <Burgundavia> not much
[02:47] <jsgotangco> even svn isn't active
[02:47] <jsgotangco> :(
[02:47] <Burgundavia> no
[02:47] <Burgundavia> I need to email elmo my new key
[02:48] <Burgundavia> and then I will get active
[02:48] <jsgotangco> ok
[04:17] <jsgotangco> thegreedyturtle, hi there
[05:36] <thegreedyturtle> hey jsgo, sorry i was idle
[05:36] <thegreedyturtle> still kinda am ;)
[05:37] <jsgotangco> no worries
[05:42] <Burgundavia> hey
[05:42] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:42] <Burgundavia> quick summary
[05:42] <Burgundavia> we want a web way to editing our docs in svn, using docbook
[05:42] <Burgundavia> froud has investigated apache lenya
[05:42] <Burgundavia> seems like it meets our needs
[05:43] <Burgundavia> we need a dev to look at it and give and upcheck/downcheck
[05:43] <jdub> a 'web way'?
[05:43] <Burgundavia> editing online, ala a wiki, but into the svn repos
[05:44] <jdub> using docbook syntax?
[05:44] <Burgundavia> yes
[05:45] <jdub> so writing docbook syntax into an html form that gets shunted into svn..
[05:45] <Burgundavia> yes, I believe so
[05:45] <jdub> that seems remarkably breakable and complicated for simple document editing procedures
[05:45] <Burgundavia> I have not played with lenya myself
[05:45] <Burgundavia> we are looking to involve a great many people in doc editing
[05:45] <Burgundavia> provide a single source
[05:45] <Burgundavia> and keep our existing infrastructure
[05:46] <jdub> that sounds like using an svn or baz repository directly to me - i don't understand the web page requirement
[05:46] <Burgundavia> the web requirement is to lower the exisiting barrier to editing
[05:46] <Burgundavia> think of this as rosetta vs a gnome-translator
[05:47] <jdub> it doesn't lower the barrier usefully
[05:47] <jdub> the writer still has to author docbook
[05:47] <jsgotangco> can i make a comment
[05:47] <jdub> and they're stuck in an htmlarea instead of a text editor
[05:47] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, jump in
[05:48] <jsgotangco> i still don't see the point of the portal since the manual author still has to dump his thoughts in an html text area
[05:48] <jdub> (i see lenya has some element of wysiwyg editing, but has an awful chunk of infrastructure underneath it)
[05:48] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:49] <jsgotangco> (the awful chunk of intfrastructure can be the xslt stuff)
[05:49] <Burgundavia> the team almost ripped itself apart in January discussing major changes
[05:49] <Burgundavia> we decided that the path of least resistance was to develop a web portal to our existing docbook/svn stuff
[05:50] <jdub> that sounds like a heck of a lot of wasted time to me
[05:51] <Burgundavia> can you suggest a better solution (I am asking seriously)
[05:51] <jdub> sorry, but a good editor, sensible revision control (svn or preferably baz) and useful preview tools (yelp) are all you need to start writing and contributing good documentation
[05:52] <Burgundavia> what about single source?
[05:52] <Burgundavia> I want to remove all docs from the wiki (hopefully)
[05:53] <jdub> so, you have to get used to the idea that it will never happen :)
[05:53] <jsgotangco> i still like our current setup
[05:53] <jsgotangco> (its quite simple really)
[05:53] <jdub> official documentation in revision control and in the distro (packages) is hugely beneficial
[05:54] <jdub> because you have a clear place to contribute (both docs, translations, etc)
[05:54] <jdub> and a clear delivery path (packages in the distro)
[05:54] <jdub> you could also autogenerate them for a website
[05:54] <Burgundavia> what about on the web?
[05:55] <jdub> if you want to deliver them to a website, that's really simple
[05:55] <jdub> there will always be stuff going on in the wiki
[05:55] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:55] <Burgundavia> I am talking single source
[05:56] <Burgundavia> the wiki is currently filled with crap, from our perspective
[05:56] <jdub> in fact, having the wiki makes finding people for the documentation team so much easier
[05:56] <Burgundavia> most of what we are discussing has been hashed out many times on the doc team lists
[05:56] <jdub> we can pluck great contributors from the wiki into the doc team, and get them working on the distro docs
[05:56] <Burgundavia> I am trying to move forward what we discussed there
[05:57] <jdub> ok, so my suggestion for moving forward:
[05:57] <jdub> * docbook in revision control
[05:57] <Burgundavia> but you are failing to address the major issue that still exists
[05:57] <jdub> * attempt to automate package building for testing purposes
[05:57] <jdub> * do some gonzo web delivery for testing purposes, maybe spruce it up and make it sexy later on
[05:58] <Burgundavia> what about getting it back from the web?
[05:58] <jdub> * hack more talk less! :)
[05:58] <jsgotangco> jdub, ROCK
[05:58] <Burgundavia> I am trying to get something together here
[05:58] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, to be honest, you are not helping
[05:58] <Burgundavia> I am very very mad now
[05:58] <jdub> well, further down the track we could look into doing documentation commentary like php.net, but in the distro instead of on the web
[05:58] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i don't seewhy we have to complicate this to be honest
[05:58] <jdub> but there's no point making things complicated to start with
[05:59] <jsgotangco> my problem at the moment is that no one is pulling docs from svn except some people
[05:59] <Burgundavia> I am going to walk away, and when I come back, I am going to post a message to the devel list about what the doc team has dicussed, what we have found, and where we need to move
[05:59] <jsgotangco> our svn is still empty
[05:59] <jdub> jsgotangco: empty?
[05:59] <jdub> i thought all the distro doc bits were in it
[05:59] <jsgotangco> empty as in old docs
[06:00] <jsgotangco> i meant it still has old docs
[06:00] <jsgotangco> its not really moving that much
[06:00] <jdub> yeah
[06:00] <jsgotangco> just look at the commit list
[06:00] <jdub> seems there's more discussion about infrastructure issues than actual doc hacking :)
[06:00] <jsgotangco> i know
[06:00] <jsgotangco> thats why i believe froud is getting frustrated at this
[06:01] <jsgotangco> this is not a complicated issue
[06:03] <jsgotangco> jdub, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-May/002220.html
[06:04] <Burgundavia> ok
[06:04] <Burgundavia> sorry, needed to blow off steam
[06:04] <Burgundavia> Sean and I have spent the past 2 months talking about this issue
[06:04] <Burgundavia> and this is what we came up with
[06:04] <Burgundavia> so, yes there has already been a lot of talk
[06:04] <Burgundavia> this is about how to move it forward
[06:05] <jdub> i don't see the necessity for a "web portal" to move forward
[06:05] <jdub> we already have the tools
[06:05] <Burgundavia> basically, I said, we need a web way to edit stuff
[06:05] <jdub> but you don't
[06:05] <Burgundavia> sean said, lets not lose the exisiting infrastructure
[06:05] <jsgotangco> jdub, would it be possible to consider this for the future instead for this release cycle
[06:06] <jdub> you have a much better tool on your hard disk
[06:06] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no
[06:06] <jdub> a web browser is a hideous place to write docbook
[06:06] <Burgundavia> at least let us try and then fail
[06:06] <jdub> you actually have all the tools you need already
[06:06] <Burgundavia> before you condemn us to fail beforehand
[06:06] <Burgundavia> I find that very annoying
[06:06] <jdub> i'm not saying it will fail
[06:06] <jsgotangco> i can only imagine our portal becoming like the wiki sorry but that's how i feel about this
[06:07] <jdub> i'm saying you have everything you need to write and publish documentation
[06:07] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we can control access to a web portal much easier
[06:07] <Burgundavia> jdub, I am saying we don't
[06:07] <jdub> you don't need a web portal to write docs
[06:07] <Burgundavia> jdub, you don't need rosettta to translate either, by the same logic
[06:07] <jdub> that's absolutely true
[06:08] <Burgundavia> but it makes it easier
[06:08] <Burgundavia> this is about making it easier
[06:08] <Burgundavia> Ubuntu is about making it easier
[06:08] <jdub> dude
[06:08] <jdub> emotional argument is not useful argument
[06:08] <Burgundavia> I am just very frustrating
[06:09] <Burgundavia> because we have a workable solution
[06:09] <Burgundavia> froud has tested it
[06:09] <Burgundavia> we just need a dev to implement it
[06:09] <jdub> no, dude
[06:09] <jdub> this is silliness
[06:09] <jdub> you already have all the tools you need
[06:09] <jdub> every other project out there has written documentation without a 'web portal'
[06:09] <Burgundavia> most docs suck
[06:09] <Burgundavia> and they don't involve the community
[06:09] <jdub> in exactly the same way that every other project out there has translations done in emacs
[06:09] <jdub> that is incorrect
[06:10] <Burgundavia> suffice it to say that we need a better way. We really do. The web is a very easy tool to getting people involved
[06:10] <Burgundavia> lets harness that
[06:10] <jdub> i'm sorry, but this is emotional claptrap
[06:11] <jdub> a) you don't need a better way, you need to actually write docs
[06:11] <Burgundavia> jdub, that is rude
[06:11] <jdub> b) you don't need more people involved, you need a small team doing great work - *then* you can scale up
[06:11] <jdub> this is infrastructural fantasy stuff
[06:14] <jdub> the point about rosetta is fine, but translation has actually scaled to the point where rosetta can be useful
[06:14] <jdub> documentation, within ubuntu, has not
[06:15] <jdub> a better first step would be to have web based commentary on documentation, like php
[06:15] <jdub> then integrating that with yelp, the documentation reader in gnome
[06:15] <Burgundavia> commentary on docs?
[06:16] <jdub> that will allow people to contribute to the documentation in a useful way, and have documentors operating as editors of those contributions
[06:16] <jdub> further down the track, using something similar to monodoc for user contributions far beyond commentary would be great
[06:16] <jdub> but it's very, very important to start small and scale up
[06:16] <Burgundavia> then fundamentally is the difference between that and what I am proposing?
[06:16] <jdub> i'm talking about the future
[06:16] <jdub> nice things to have
[06:16] <Burgundavia> I think the people will appear "when you build it"
[06:17] <jdub> they're entirely unnecessary for writing documentation right now, however
[06:17] <jdub> we have the best tools to hand already
[06:17] <jdub> revision control (svn or even better, baz)
[06:17] <Burgundavia> we currently use svn, talk to us later about changing
[06:18] <Burgundavia> we are also not going to change from docbook
[06:18] <jdub> emacs or vi with docbook/xml editing helpers, or even conglomerate if it's stable enough
[06:18] <Burgundavia> thus, we need an easy way to involve people
[06:18] <Burgundavia> conglomerate is not
[06:18] <jdub> ok, the easy way to involve people is this:
[06:18] <Burgundavia> I use bluefish myself
[06:18] <jdub> do absolutely fantastic work and inspire people to get on board
[06:19] <Burgundavia> look, docs are glamourous
[06:19] <Burgundavia> every single barrier, no matter how small, that is in the way migth be the showstopper
[06:19] <Burgundavia> observe gnome docs
[06:19] <jdub> i understand
[06:19] <jdub> ah, gnome documentation has different problems
[06:19] <jdub> related to scaling and branching
[06:19] <Burgundavia> on the web eliminates a huge barrier of getting another program and learning how to use that, etc.
[06:20] <jdub> no, it doesn't significantly help
[06:20] <jdub> unless the user doesn't have to write docbook
[06:20] <Burgundavia> I don't want documentors to have to deal with version control
[06:20] <Burgundavia> taht should just happen
[06:20] <jdub> which can be done with desktop tools too :)
[06:20] <Burgundavia> which ones?
[06:20] <Burgundavia> eSVN?
[06:20] <jdub> no
[06:20] <jdub> dude
[06:20] <jdub> scale up
[06:21] <jdub> forget this infrastructure fancy
[06:21] <Burgundavia> jdub, I am saying we will scale when we have the structure in place
[06:21] <jdub> the important thing is to do great work - that's what gets people interested to help out
[06:21] <jdub> you don't need to scale now
[06:21] <jdub> you need to start
[06:22] <Burgundavia> please just implement the lenya thing, and then we can talk
[06:22] <Burgundavia> we can make that an official request, if you want
[06:22] <jdub> "then we can talk"?
[06:22] <jdub> dude
[06:22] <jdub> seriously
[06:22] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, that didnt sound right
[06:23] <jdub> it's not easy because it's not right or compeling
[06:23] <jdub> compelling
[06:23] <jdub> the doc team doesn't need more infrastructure to write docs
[06:23] <jdub> it needs more docs :-)
[06:24] <jdub> that's what will get people interested
[06:24] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, have you read through the backlog of this channel and doc-list?
[06:24] <jdub> one of the past gnome doc team leaders learnt docbook specifically to contribute
[06:24] <jdub> i know guys who've learnt C to contribute to gnome
[06:24] <Burgundavia> I am trying to find the email exchange mark, sean and I had
[06:24] <Burgundavia> just a sec
[06:25] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, irclog no, but doc-list yes, for me its all pointless as no one is pulling docs from svn
[06:25] <jsgotangco> svn is all that matters to me at the moment
[06:25] <jdub> the real lesson here is not to get bogged down in irrelevant details
[06:26] <jdub> start small, kick arse, scale when necessary, not before
[06:27] <jdub> i understand the attraction, but i've seen way too many projects kill themselves doing things that are unrelated to their real goals
[06:27] <jdub> i have to get some lunch :-)
[06:28] <jsgotangco> me too
[06:28] <jsgotangco> jdub, thanks for the time
[06:28] <Burgundavia> jdub, take a read through this thread --> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-April/001755.html
[06:58] <jdub> so i just had a long walk to get lunch
[06:58] <jdub> and thought about a bunch of the problems
[07:00] <jsgotangco> sounds good i just arrived from lunch as well
[07:00] <jdub> i think the first part is really basic
[07:00] <jdub> this talk about a web portal assumes that the major role of the doc team is 'writing docs'
[07:01] <jdub> where really, it isn't
[07:01] <jdub> at least not this early on
[07:01] <jdub> there's an enormous amount we can do simply by using what we have, and integrating it in a more useful way
[07:01] <jdub> there's very little that needs to be done from scratch
[07:01] <jdub> *very* little
[07:04] <Burgundavia> that is the point of lenya
[07:04] <Burgundavia> it is already a fairly mature app
[07:05] <jdub> oh, dude, come on
[07:05] <Burgundavia> in fact, they just added some measure of WYSIWYG editing
[07:05] <jsgotangco> ok i want to base on my experience im no docbook expert at all, sean took the time to mentor me and most of what I know came from him but it didnt stop me from doing stuff in what we currently have in a learning standpoint it is very interesting but can be intimidating to the new user
[07:06] <jsgotangco> id rather have contributors who know some level of docbook or at least willing to bitethe bullet instead of giving them toned-down tools
[07:06] <jsgotangco> too much abstraction muddles things
[07:07] <Burgundavia> jdub, jsgotangco, sorry, my ex is calling, I must run
[07:07] <jdub> Burgundavia: "the point of lenya" is not to realise that we hardly need to write new docs at all
[07:07] <Burgundavia> jdub, say again?
[07:08] <jdub> i've relayed a thought about hardly needing to write docs at all, and you've somehow related it to a document writing tool
[07:08] <jdub> it ends up sounding silly after a while
[07:08] <Burgundavia> I am still not understanding what you are saying
[07:08] <jsgotangco> hmm you mean using technology for the sake of technology instead of your end goal?
[07:09] <Burgundavia> web based writing is not technology for the sake of technology
[07:09] <jdub> Burgundavia: you inserted your current argument into an unrelated point
[07:09] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:09] <jdub> here's me saying we don't need to write new docs
[07:10] <jdub> and here's you saying "this is what a doc writing tool is for!"
[07:10] <jdub> it doesn't gel
[07:10] <jdub> and it sounds silly
[07:10] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:11] <Burgundavia> what I got from you is that current tools are suffecient not "we don't need to write new docs"
[07:11] <jdub> oddly, i'm saying both
[07:12] <Burgundavia> what do you mean about writing new docs?
[07:12] <jdub> but the latter is a new thought
[07:12] <Burgundavia> are you saying we just need to collate what is out there?
[07:12] <Burgundavia> that is total crack
[07:12] <jdub> it is not total crack
[07:12] <jdub> we have a wealth of documentation already
[07:12] <jsgotangco> it makes sense reusing what we currently have
[07:12] <jdub> and it is inadequately presented to users
[07:12] <Burgundavia> good docs are visual
[07:12] <jsgotangco> we just have to weed out the crack ones
[07:12] <Burgundavia> visual requires screenshots/etc.
[07:13] <Burgundavia> which are by there very nature Ubuntu specific
[07:13] <jdub> but you're assuming that requires fresh new documentation
[07:13] <Burgundavia> at the very least, it requires major refactoring of exisiting docs
[07:14] <jdub> and ignoring the massive benefits we can give to users from existing works
[07:14] <jdub> no dude
[07:14] <jdub> even before refactoring
[07:14] <jdub> there is a lot we can do
[07:14] <jdub> for instance
[07:14] <Burgundavia> sorry, really have to go this time
[07:14] <jdub> early in the warty cycle
[07:14] <Burgundavia> my ex is here
[07:14] <Burgundavia> countinue what you have to say
[07:14] <Burgundavia> I can read in the scrollback
[07:14] <Burgundavia> and respond later
[07:14] <jdub> i suggested (and thom implemented) integration of the debian doc metadata and OMF
[07:15] <jdub> suddenly, we almost doubled the documentation available in yelp
[07:15] <jdub> that's a huge win
[07:15] <jdub> with very little work
[07:15] <jsgotangco> jdub, most argue that no one reads documentation in yelp
[07:15] <jdub> just pulling together stuff we already have
[07:15] <jdub> jsgotangco: well hey, lots of people argue that no one reads documentation :-)
[07:16] <jsgotangco> ok same goes then so we have so much stuff in the wiki
[07:16] <jsgotangco> some are gold, some are crack
[07:16] <jsgotangco> i still believe we can weed out the crack in that
[07:16] <jdub> (i don't think either argument has much merit)
[07:16] <jsgotangco> and integrate in current svn
[07:17] <jdub> yeah, there's a bunch of stuff we can do there
[07:17] <jdub> but there's way more we can do without even touching a line of docbook
[07:17] <jsgotangco> we all agreed in UDU that our wiki needs a facelift thats why we had a bof for that
[07:18] <jdub> yeah, switching away from zwiki will make life simpler
[07:18] <jdub> that was an unfortunate mistake
[07:18] <jsgotangco> i still believe that since docbook gets frozen our wiki is the natural exgtension of the documentation therefore needs tighter controls
[07:18] <jdub> the wiki needs tighter controls?
[07:19] <jsgotangco> well at least have someone review what people have been posting on it
[07:19] <thegreedyturtle> 'hoy
[07:19] <jdub> yes
[07:19] <jdub> it needs farming
[07:20] <thegreedyturtle> i kinda disagree with that, i think that the wiki needs to be very free, and then the docteam takes the best of it and moves it into the official docs
[07:20] <jsgotangco> we shouldn't remove its collaborative nature
[07:20] <jdub> thegreedyturtle: (you're not disagreeing)
[07:20] <thegreedyturtle> im disagreeing with the statement that the wiki needs tighter controls
[07:20] <jdub> thegreedyturtle: jsgotangco just clarified that
[07:21] <thegreedyturtle> mm, im not so sure about even review myself though
[07:21] <thegreedyturtle> it would be good for keeping the wiki organized though
[07:21] <jdub> every good wiki needs farmers
[07:22] <jsgotangco> you end up with ambigious docs
[07:22] <thegreedyturtle> clarify farmers?
[07:22] <jsgotangco> farmers weed stuff
[07:22] <jdub> people who roam the wiki, tidying stuff up, culling the crap, etc.
[07:22] <thegreedyturtle> got it
[07:22] <jsgotangco> so far mdke is doing good work on that
[07:24] <thegreedyturtle> is mdke post on the list at all? i don't have the names matched to the irc handles yet
[07:24] <jsgotangco> im sure contributors are interested in learning some docbook
[07:24] <jsgotangco> thegreedyturtle, mdke is matthew east
[07:24] <thegreedyturtle> ok
[07:24] <jsgotangco> jdub is jeff waugh
[07:25] <thegreedyturtle> thanks
[07:26] <thegreedyturtle> being fairly new myself, i think the biggest hurdle for new people isn't actually the docbook formats, but accessing the repositories
[07:27] <jsgotangco> hmmm you mean by committing or just accessing
[07:27] <jsgotangco> its not that difficult
[07:27] <thegreedyturtle> a bit of both, and i know it's not difficult, but consider what happens when someone checks out the document source code
[07:28] <thegreedyturtle> they suddenly get this huge dump of code, and it's easy to get overwhelmed
[07:28] <thegreedyturtle> and then: what to do next?
[07:28] <jsgotangco> well you check out svn because you expect that stuff right
[07:29] <thegreedyturtle> well, you check out the svn because you expect it, and I check out the svn because I expect it, but someone who just wants to submit a quick document about how they made something work would not want that stuff
[07:29] <thegreedyturtle> they just want to write a paper and feel good about it - which is why wikis are so popular... which brings us back to the root
[07:30] <jsgotangco> we can't put all that stuff in svn much less include every contribution
[07:31] <thegreedyturtle> very true - so the question here is how can we allow a user who doesn't want to deal with docbook and svn to contribute to something other than a wiki?
[07:32] <thegreedyturtle> the simple way is to use farmers
[07:32] <jdub> thegreedyturtle: further down the track - annotated documentation, either on the web or in yelp
[07:33] <jdub> but it's *further down the track*
[07:33] <jdub> no point worrying about it now
[07:33] <thegreedyturtle> righto
[07:34] <jsgotangco> ok we're going back to where we started, this is not a complicated thing some people have submitted docs in OOo or other format and we've publishedit as docbook
[07:34] <thegreedyturtle> so that's your earlier point about just getting something 'on paper' ?
[07:35] <thegreedyturtle> you are saying that someone submitted as OOo and someone else did the conversion for them, right?
[07:35] <jsgotangco> right
[07:36] <jsgotangco> (although OOo to Docbook isn't the cleanest thing available at the moment)
[07:36] <thegreedyturtle> from your experience, do you think that's scaleable?
[07:36] <thegreedyturtle> another question, one of you mentioned that the svn documents are all old?
[07:37] <thegreedyturtle> what are they old compared to?
[07:37] <thegreedyturtle> another repo, the wiki, ... ?
[07:37] <thegreedyturtle> (im kinda picking your brain now.. :)
[07:39] <jsgotangco> if you mean scaleable in a sense that we can do it for everyone everyday, no its not the most effective way but we don't do that everyday
[07:39] <jsgotangco> (i don't think traffic of that kind won't go up either)
[07:40] <jsgotangco> when I said old, i meant hoary old docs since we're in breezy, there are some stuff that may not be applicable now
[07:40] <thegreedyturtle> ok
[07:40] <jsgotangco> (if you look at the commit list nothing much has moved either)
[07:41] <jsgotangco> (which is understandable because we're still to early to do effective docs for breezy)
[07:41] <jdub> thegreedyturtle: luckily, we don't need to be concerned about scalability this early on :-)
[07:41] <jsgotangco> right
[07:41] <thegreedyturtle> you guys both running breezy right now?
[07:41] <jsgotangco> my other machine runs breezy
[07:42] <thegreedyturtle> is it worth running yet?
[07:42] <jsgotangco> i wouldn't use it as main of course
[07:43] <thegreedyturtle> ok
[07:43] <jsgotangco> but some people i met in UDU run breezy in their laptops
[07:43] <thegreedyturtle> mmm UDU, that was prolly lotsa fun neh?
[07:44] <jsgotangco> it was fun but it was work at the same time
[07:44] <jsgotangco> (we watched hitchiker's guide though)
[07:44] <thegreedyturtle> brb
[07:48] <thegreedyturtle> fun, work, what's the difference?
[07:49] <thegreedyturtle> what do you usually use to edit docbook, just an xml editor?
[07:50] <jsgotangco> heck even emacs will do
[07:51] <thegreedyturtle> yeah but I'm lazy...
[07:53] <jsgotangco> well being lazy won't start things really
[07:54] <thegreedyturtle> it's not a lazy as in start things, more lazy as in i want the convenience of a simple editor, but i guess it doesn't matter
[07:55] <jsgotangco> i like learning new stuff i guess it really depends on the person
[07:55] <thegreedyturtle> i like learning stuff too, but right now im up to my nostril hairs
[07:57] <thegreedyturtle> i have a subversion book to read, a docbook to read, and im still finishing essential sys admin, let alone my programming courses at college. I also want to at least get a small 'code portfolio' under my belt, and toss in a girlfriend... you get the idea :)
[07:57] <thegreedyturtle> and I still needs a job...
[07:58] <thegreedyturtle> hence, the easier it is to contribute, the more I'll be able to
[08:00] <thegreedyturtle> anyhoo, im off to work on the above list, i appreciate your ear 
[09:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, check your mail
[09:22] <jsgotangco> ok reading now
[09:25] <jsgotangco> ok at least we'll know if we're go or no
[09:25] <Burgundavia> basically I am tired of talking this issue
[09:25] <Burgundavia> and jdub really really pissed me off
[09:26] <Burgundavia> we have hashed out nearly every detail, we just need the implementation now
[09:27] <jsgotangco> ill try out lenya myself later it looks mighty interesting
[09:27] <Burgundavia> lenya looks really really cool
[09:28] <Kinnison> Morning
[09:28] <Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
[09:28] <Burgundavia> I was arguing with more people today
[09:28] <Kinnison> heh
[09:28] <Burgundavia> this time it was jdub
[09:28] <Burgundavia> I aim high
[09:32] <Burgundavia> tomorrow it will be mark
[09:32] <Burgundavia> oh wait, already done that
[09:32] <Burgundavia> bugzilla bug 8516
[09:33] <Burgundavia> in other news, corey is looking forward to helping out more with malone
[09:33] <jsgotangco> spatial?
[09:33] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:33] <jsgotangco> that was a nasty thread
[09:33] <Burgundavia> Ubuntu spatial breaks usablity
[09:33] <Kinnison> Yeah, I don't like it, but my father does
[09:33] <Burgundavia> the closing window way?
[09:33] <Kinnison> yep
[09:33] <Burgundavia> seems to split the community
[09:34] <Kinnison> aye
[09:34] <Burgundavia> ala the menu bar thing
[09:34] <Kinnison> having a config option in breezy is a *must* IMO
[09:34] <Burgundavia> window vs global
[10:26] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, check your mail
[10:26] <jsgotangco> wait
[10:29] <jsgotangco> it might work but it'll take some time
[10:29] <Burgundavia> I just sent that to the list to highlight the importance of getting our portal up
[11:29] <jsgotangco> brb
[01:43] <jdub> corey
[08:52] <HappyFool> i've written a page on the ubuntu wiki, and one of the comments I've made is that it *might* be unsafe to edit /etc/modules -- is this overly conservative? What could realistically go wrong? (page is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IntelFiveThreeSixEPModemHowto)
[08:52] <HappyFool> oh, and hello ;)
[09:09] <thegreedyturtle> meeting at #ubuntu-meeting
[09:10] <Burgundavia> indeed
[10:08] <mvirkkil> Any news about the CD shipments?
[10:10] <Burgundavia> we are not the correct people to ask
[10:10] <Burgundavia> and they will contact you when they ship, to confirm the addy
[10:11] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Just wondering. Didn't want to ask in ubuntu-devel either. Oh, well. Patience is a virtue :-)
[10:12] <Burgundavia> indeed