| Burgundavia | I got mentioned in lugradio | 12:43 |
|---|---|---|
| mpt | Well that makes two of us, Burgundavia :-) | 01:09 |
| mpt | What were they talking about? | 01:10 |
| Burgundavia | generally making fun of my name and reading my letter out | 01:14 |
| Burgundavia | then they talked about non-free launchpad | 01:15 |
| mpt | ah | 02:17 |
| mpt | So they discovered non-free Launchpad *after* voting Ubuntu as Least Evil Distribution | 02:17 |
| Burgundavia | indeed | 02:20 |
| Burgundavia | well | 02:20 |
| Burgundavia | technically, launchpad != ubuntu | 02:20 |
| mpt | sure | 02:21 |
| Burgundavia | but they are going to be tied together | 02:21 |
| === Burgundavia curses Java | ||
| mpt | and such fine distinctions would certainly be lost on those guys | 02:21 |
| Burgundavia | http://www.spicetrade.org/ <-- this looks really cool, but has java deps out the wazoo | 02:21 |
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| jsgotangco | morning | 04:44 |
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| jsgotangco | brb | 07:16 |
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| jsgotangco | conglomerate is so buggy | 08:28 |
| Burgundavia | indeed | 08:32 |
| Burgundavia | I use bluefish to do my editing | 08:32 |
| jsgotangco | does bluefish have a template already? | 08:33 |
| === froud [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Burgundavia | it has some docbook stuff | 08:33 |
| froud | Burgundavia: morn, c u have the same problem s as me | 08:33 |
| Burgundavia | I mostly like to write everything by hand | 08:33 |
| Burgundavia | froud, with jdub? | 08:33 |
| froud | It is not just jdub | 08:33 |
| froud | is a religious question | 08:34 |
| Burgundavia | just trying to push it forward | 08:34 |
| froud | give up dont waste your time | 08:34 |
| Burgundavia | no, I refuse to give up | 08:34 |
| froud | if they dont care why should we | 08:34 |
| froud | oh well your funeral | 08:34 |
| froud | I appreciat eyour support on this but really they have no clue and dont want to listen | 08:35 |
| froud | personally I dont have the time to waste on such people | 08:35 |
| === froud is getting really fucked off with things | ||
| froud | this is not the first time | 08:36 |
| Burgundavia | indeed | 08:36 |
| froud | so this time I am just not going to worry myself on it | 08:36 |
| Burgundavia | mark/mdz sounded supportize | 08:36 |
| Burgundavia | wow, what a word | 08:36 |
| Burgundavia | supportive, even | 08:36 |
| froud | well I still wait for responses on several issues | 08:36 |
| froud | until those are addressed, I hang low | 08:37 |
| froud | when I get time I will commit | 08:37 |
| froud | but I am not gonna stess myself for people who dont care to pull back | 08:37 |
| froud | I can be more productive at the fringes | 08:37 |
| froud | smaller projects | 08:38 |
| jsgotangco | :( | 08:38 |
| froud | like I did before the release on four or five apps | 08:38 |
| froud | well, must goo, just cam eto say hi and let you know my feelings. | 08:38 |
| jsgotangco | :( | 08:38 |
| === froud is now known as froud-away | ||
| Burgundavia | now you see why need to keep the momentum jstangco? | 08:39 |
| Burgundavia | froud did a lot of work with that portal | 08:40 |
| Burgundavia | just to see it disappear in smoke, or apparently | 08:40 |
| Burgundavia | that is why I am not going to let it get away | 08:40 |
| Burgundavia | I intend to be very persistent about making sure something this happens | 08:40 |
| jsgotangco | well ok the portal can open up a lot of things for us but im not so optimistic about being able to use it in time for breezy | 08:42 |
| Burgundavia | I am | 08:42 |
| Burgundavia | I am because I have to be | 08:43 |
| Burgundavia | docs don't take long to write | 08:43 |
| jdub | a "religious" issue? | 08:43 |
| Burgundavia | once the thing is in place | 08:43 |
| jdub | golly | 08:43 |
| Burgundavia | java | 08:43 |
| Burgundavia | froud is seriously pissed | 08:43 |
| jdub | oh well | 08:43 |
| jsgotangco | well ok the fridge is supposed to run something that elmo might not want to have but he's willing | 08:44 |
| Burgundavia | fridge is read only | 08:44 |
| Burgundavia | very very cool, but not what we are really looking for | 08:44 |
| jdub | if you and he can only express your point of view in these terms, i'm not really all that fussed | 08:44 |
| jdub | none of this really matters to a well functioning documentation team anyway | 08:45 |
| Burgundavia | froud was the person that I spent the longest time convincing to make a portal | 08:45 |
| Burgundavia | this is not something that we thought up over a weekend and pulled out of our ass | 08:46 |
| jdub | i don't think anyone's suggesting you did | 08:46 |
| Burgundavia | that is why I find your attitude very annoyed and condecending, to tell you the truth | 08:46 |
| jdub | but there are quite a few people suggesting that it's unnecessarily complex for the task at hand | 08:46 |
| jdub | perhaps you should take a moment to think about it | 08:46 |
| Burgundavia | like who? | 08:46 |
| Burgundavia | you? | 08:46 |
| Burgundavia | I haven't seen anybody say that | 08:47 |
| jsgotangco | oh boy we could have done a lot of work already without this chit chat | 08:47 |
| === jsgotangco away | ||
| Burgundavia | jdub, what I guess it boils down to, is "if you build it, they will come" | 08:53 |
| jdub | Burgundavia: this is true of documentation, but not true of a web portal | 08:54 |
| jdub | Burgundavia: i'm happy to give you a phone call to describe why this entire discussion is a waste of time | 08:54 |
| Burgundavia | can you suggest something better? | 08:54 |
| jdub | yes | 08:54 |
| Burgundavia | the status-quo isn't working | 08:55 |
| jdub | heh | 08:55 |
| Burgundavia | I am open to any sort of technology | 08:55 |
| jdub | the answer is not "more tools" or "bigger infrastructure" | 08:55 |
| jdub | and "more technology" is *definitely* not the answer to a social problem | 08:55 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, I found another wiki last night | 08:56 |
| Burgundavia | one for PPC | 08:56 |
| Burgundavia | there is reason people are creating these wikis | 08:56 |
| jdub | i see you related our conversation yesterday as a "failure to communicate" | 08:57 |
| Burgundavia | they are easy to create docs in | 08:57 |
| jdub | yes, because our current wiki is very difficult to use and inadequately maintained | 08:57 |
| jdub | if you still feel we failed to communicate, i'm very happy to call you | 08:57 |
| Burgundavia | I am happy to have one big wiki for everything | 08:57 |
| Burgundavia | but froud explained to me that keeping stuff in SVN is very useful | 08:57 |
| Burgundavia | so I said, how do I marry the two concepts | 08:57 |
| jdub | for a certain class of documentation, sure | 08:58 |
| jdub | i think you are getting stuck on concepts and not thinking outside them | 08:58 |
| Burgundavia | the biggest hole in our docs is short, wiki-style howtos | 08:58 |
| jdub | i disagree - there are plenty of things we can do to improve our documentation without writing anything at all | 08:58 |
| Burgundavia | communication of where they are is huge | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | part of the portal plan was to move docs to something like help.ubuntu.com | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | and then advertise the crap out of it | 08:59 |
| jdub | and yet, the most important place for documentation is in the distribution itself | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | I agree there | 08:59 |
| jdub | i'm not really interested in this cyclical discussion | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | ok | 09:00 |
| jdub | if you want me to call, send me your details | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | 1-250-385-3507 | 09:00 |
| jsgotangco | oh man | 09:02 |
| jsgotangco | we can't stop people from making their own wikis/guides | 09:04 |
| jsgotangco | if we make good docs that people trust, users would refer to our docs not to other wiki/guides that are suspect | 09:05 |
| jsgotangco | :( | 09:05 |
| === Burgundavia is the phone | ||
| jsgotangco | i know | 09:05 |
| jsgotangco | :( | 09:05 |
| === jsgotangco can just imagine jdub's phone bill if he's not using VoIP | ||
| Burgundavia | off the phone | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | I had a good conversation | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | jdub can bill it to canonical | 09:33 |
| jdub | jsgotangco: calling cards - very cheap :-) | 09:33 |
| Burgundavia | even to Canada | 09:34 |
| jsgotangco | the Hello! phone cards? | 09:34 |
| jsgotangco | i bought those | 09:34 |
| jsgotangco | heh | 09:34 |
| jsgotangco | $10 can give you 300 minutes | 09:34 |
| jdub | that's the one :) | 09:34 |
| Burgundavia | phone cards are a rip for short phone calls, however | 09:35 |
| jsgotangco | ok so you two had a good chat i assume | 09:35 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 09:35 |
| Burgundavia | while not cured of my wanting a web portal, I am more convinced of jdubs way | 09:36 |
| jsgotangco | hmmm can you elaborate? | 09:36 |
| Burgundavia | I just had to remember that jdub got his job by being very smart | 09:36 |
| Burgundavia | basically, the doc team needs some good direction | 09:37 |
| Burgundavia | he suggested some good ways | 09:37 |
| Burgundavia | such as finding/sorting/making available is a better way existing upstreamer docs | 09:37 |
| === jsgotangco grumbles of not asking jdub how to be smart | ||
| Burgundavia | I don't you think someone can tell you about how to be smart | 09:38 |
| jsgotangco | ok go on | 09:38 |
| Burgundavia | we talked about getting docs into scrollkeeper | 09:39 |
| Burgundavia | which is the technical side of above | 09:39 |
| Burgundavia | of which I know next to nothing about, but must learn | 09:39 |
| Burgundavia | and we talked about the wiki transition | 09:39 |
| Burgundavia | and wiki farming, etc. | 09:39 |
| Burgundavia | I guess the biggest thing, was, we don't actually need to write docs | 09:40 |
| Burgundavia | we just need to organize them more | 09:40 |
| Burgundavia | which is sort of true | 09:40 |
| jsgotangco | errmm i always had that thought | 09:40 |
| Burgundavia | we still need some docs | 09:41 |
| jsgotangco | the only thing that's stopping me from being the seb128 of docteam is that i know very little of docbook at the moment | 09:41 |
| Burgundavia | but they can be small and mostly pointers | 09:41 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, I would say then, write in the wiki | 09:42 |
| Burgundavia | we can worry about docbook closer to release | 09:42 |
| jsgotangco | i really hate our wiki but i guess there is no point resisting that | 09:42 |
| Burgundavia | I have a lot of very cool ideas, but then I start writing in docbook, and I got bored really quickly | 09:42 |
| Burgundavia | docbook is for when you have already written the text | 09:43 |
| Burgundavia | but writing is not the focus right now | 09:43 |
| jsgotangco | hmm ok you have a point | 09:43 |
| Burgundavia | what I am saying is what jdub said, which is completely right | 09:43 |
| Burgundavia | the problem is that people need a quick and easy place to write | 09:43 |
| Burgundavia | wiki is one solution | 09:43 |
| Burgundavia | portal is another | 09:43 |
| Burgundavia | but the other problem is we need to tell people how to find existing docs | 09:44 |
| jsgotangco | thats where farming and culling comes in | 09:45 |
| Burgundavia | which is a really messy thing to even start at | 09:45 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, this is more already packaged stuff | 09:45 |
| Burgundavia | because there are dozens of forms that they are written in | 09:45 |
| Burgundavia | and lots and lots of packages | 09:45 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, you said we should get a script to cut packages apart and look for stuff to register in scrollkeeper? | 09:46 |
| jsgotangco | do you know any scrollkeeper aware browser? | 09:47 |
| Burgundavia | no idea | 09:47 |
| Burgundavia | I am not a developer, nor do I really wish to be one | 09:47 |
| Burgundavia | I write stuff, do talks and generally produce hot air | 09:48 |
| jsgotangco | perfect | 09:48 |
| jdub | jsgotangco: yelp's index is built from the documentation registered with scrollkeeper | 09:48 |
| jsgotangco | ah right i thought of yelp | 09:49 |
| jsgotangco | but then scrollkeeper acts as middleman as well | 09:49 |
| Burgundavia | I thought browser as web browser | 09:49 |
| jsgotangco | im sure the major help browsers are scrollkeeper aware | 09:51 |
| Burgundavia | I don't know if khelp is | 09:51 |
| Burgundavia | that seemed to be a sticking point with scrollkeeper | 09:51 |
| Burgundavia | I think it is gnome-specific | 09:51 |
| Burgundavia | but my memory could be bad | 09:51 |
| jsgotangco | khelpcenter has support | 09:51 |
| jsgotangco | as well as nautilus | 09:51 |
| jdub | (nautilus's support was replaced with yelp) | 09:52 |
| jsgotangco | but yelp replaced nautilus | 09:52 |
| Burgundavia | you are correct | 09:52 |
| Burgundavia | my memory was bad | 09:52 |
| Burgundavia | as usual | 09:52 |
| Burgundavia | jdub, is scrollkeeper really not had a release in 2 years> | 09:53 |
| Burgundavia | s/is/has | 09:54 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco, are you using xchat? | 09:54 |
| jsgotangco | i am | 09:55 |
| Burgundavia | have you noticed this bug? | 09:55 |
| jsgotangco | where? | 09:55 |
| Burgundavia | tab completion is sometimes case-sensitive, and sometimes not | 09:55 |
| jsgotangco | oh | 09:55 |
| jsgotangco | no i didn't notice that | 09:55 |
| Burgundavia | I don't know if it a real bug, or my hallucinations | 09:55 |
| Burgundavia | here is an example | 09:56 |
| jsgotangco | i will try random | 09:56 |
| Burgundavia | Andy vs anndy | 09:56 |
| Burgundavia | if you type an, you will get Andy, but if you back up to An, it won't tab complete to anndy | 09:57 |
| jsgotangco | no i didn't notice anything like that, unfortunately, i don't have an eye for such details | 09:57 |
| Burgundavia | #ubuntu right now has AndyR and anathema | 09:58 |
| Burgundavia | you can test it out | 09:58 |
| Burgundavia | to see if I am not on crack | 09:58 |
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| Burgundavia | then I file the bug | 09:58 |
| jsgotangco | it didnt happen to me | 10:03 |
| jsgotangco | An still gave me AndyR | 10:03 |
| jsgotangco | so did an | 10:03 |
| Burgundavia | say again? | 10:04 |
| jsgotangco | An and an gave me the same tab completed nick AndyR | 10:04 |
| Burgundavia | they should | 10:05 |
| Burgundavia | let AndyR complete | 10:05 |
| Burgundavia | then deleted to AN | 10:05 |
| jsgotangco | even if i back up to An it still gave the same result | 10:05 |
| Burgundavia | sorry | 10:05 |
| Burgundavia | An | 10:05 |
| jsgotangco | it still works | 10:05 |
| Burgundavia | the list for an is AndyR, anubis | 10:06 |
| Burgundavia | sorry | 10:06 |
| Burgundavia | is AndyR, anathema | 10:06 |
| jsgotangco | you get 2 results? | 10:06 |
| Burgundavia | the list for An is AndyR, Anubis | 10:06 |
| Burgundavia | that is just the first to results | 10:06 |
| Burgundavia | as hitting tab again selects the next nick | 10:07 |
| jsgotangco | i get all an nicks irregardless of case | 10:07 |
| Burgundavia | odd | 10:07 |
| Burgundavia | so An and an both get AndyR, then anathema | 10:07 |
| jsgotangco | yes | 10:07 |
| jsgotangco | hmm | 10:07 |
| jsgotangco | wait | 10:07 |
| jsgotangco | An i only get AndyR and Anubis | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | yep | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | that is the bug | 10:08 |
| jsgotangco | but an i get all of them | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | I think the devs were trying to be smart | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | and think that An would only be looking for capital A | 10:08 |
| Burgundavia | but they failed to realize what would happen if some tab completed the wrong nick | 10:09 |
| Burgundavia | and just deleted the number of letters to make it common | 10:09 |
| jsgotangco | if you type a then tab, you get a list of all A/a nicks | 10:09 |
| jsgotangco | but if you type A then tab, you only get A nicks | 10:09 |
| jsgotangco | wrong nick after tab completion happens for fast fingers | 10:10 |
| Burgundavia | ugh, I have to use sf.net bug tracker | 10:10 |
| === Burgundavia shoots himself | ||
| Burgundavia | gah | 10:15 |
| Burgundavia | I can't wait until malone rocks | 10:16 |
| jsgotangco | we need docteam love | 10:17 |
| Burgundavia | docteam love? | 10:17 |
| Burgundavia | we need a good direction | 10:17 |
| Burgundavia | I can't provide that | 10:17 |
| jsgotangco | you can try | 10:17 |
| === jsgotangco not cut enough at the moment | ||
| Burgundavia | I don't know where we need to go | 10:18 |
| jsgotangco | ok ill do breezy tommorow and check where we can start | 10:19 |
| Burgundavia | we need people with clear vision | 10:19 |
| Burgundavia | I don't have that when it comes to the docteam | 10:19 |
| Burgundavia | because I don't understand a lot of the technical side of things | 10:20 |
| jsgotangco | im not good on that either but im learning | 10:21 |
| Burgundavia | there is the clear disconnect | 10:21 |
| Burgundavia | it is very frustrating | 10:21 |
| Burgundavia | because I realise how little interest I actually have in mucking with those kinds of details | 10:21 |
| jsgotangco | hmm lugradio really trashed ubuntu heh | 10:22 |
| jsgotangco | the mad philantrophist | 10:23 |
| jsgotangco | doh | 10:23 |
| Burgundavia | they even mentioned me | 10:23 |
| Burgundavia | lugradio actually love ubuntu | 10:23 |
| jsgotangco | hmmm i probably missed you there | 10:24 |
| Burgundavia | right at the end, in the email section | 10:24 |
| Burgundavia | my real name is Corey Burger | 10:24 |
| jsgotangco | yeah ill just listen to it again tonight | 10:24 |
| Burgundavia | generally it was good | 10:25 |
| Burgundavia | even though the linspire guy was pure marketing | 10:25 |
| jsgotangco | heh | 10:25 |
| jsgotangco | the only real technical guy here who's capable of this stuff is froud at the moment | 10:26 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 10:26 |
| jsgotangco | or jeff perhaps if he's willing? | 10:26 |
| jsgotangco | jeffsch i mean | 10:26 |
| Burgundavia | no idea, I have not interacted much with him | 10:27 |
| jsgotangco | but i think both are quite busy atm | 10:27 |
| jsgotangco | maybe a devel should mentor us at least? | 10:29 |
| Burgundavia | that is something I thought of | 10:29 |
| Burgundavia | jdub is going to email the list with specifics | 10:29 |
| Burgundavia | and then we can go from there | 10:29 |
| jsgotangco | thats a good start | 10:30 |
| jsgotangco | brb | 10:46 |
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| jsgotangco | Burgundavia, do you use f-spot? | 10:59 |
| Burgundavia | nope | 11:00 |
| Burgundavia | don't own a camera | 11:00 |
| jsgotangco | ok it just froze on me hmm | 11:00 |
| Burgundavia | f-spot is very cool, but quite alpha | 11:00 |
| jsgotangco | very | 11:00 |
| jsgotangco | http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/ | 11:44 |
| jsgotangco | just some photos | 11:44 |
| Burgundavia | cool | 11:51 |
| jsgotangco | bye bye | 12:37 |
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| mvirkkil | Burgundavia: Didn't have to be pacient for long, I got the Ubuntu CD:s today (though the bag looked like it had gone to hell and back). | 04:06 |
| mvirkkil | ^--- patient even | 04:06 |
| jjesse | is that the free cds from shipit? | 04:11 |
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| mvirkkil | jjesse: Yes. I ordered 8 x86 and one ppc and one amd64. They arrived in an envelope that had been so poorly treated it resembled a bag. | 05:49 |
| mvirkkil | The envelope had a bubble wrapped inside. | 05:49 |
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| mdke | hi all | 06:30 |
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| thegreedyturtle | jiyuu0- sent you a pm on ubuntuforums.org | 10:10 |
| thegreedyturtle | you'll have to tell me if the torrent works for ya, luckily ubuntu comes with gnome-torrent preinstalled, so it should be very easy for newbies to get their hands on it | 10:12 |
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