[12:43] I got mentioned in lugradio [01:09] Well that makes two of us, Burgundavia :-) [01:10] What were they talking about? [01:14] generally making fun of my name and reading my letter out [01:15] then they talked about non-free launchpad [02:17] ah [02:17] So they discovered non-free Launchpad *after* voting Ubuntu as Least Evil Distribution [02:20] indeed [02:20] well [02:20] technically, launchpad != ubuntu [02:21] sure [02:21] but they are going to be tied together === Burgundavia curses Java [02:21] and such fine distinctions would certainly be lost on those guys [02:21] http://www.spicetrade.org/ <-- this looks really cool, but has java deps out the wazoo === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-125.dsl.clear.net.nz] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:44] morning === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.60.26] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:16] brb === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.60.26] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:28] conglomerate is so buggy [08:32] indeed [08:32] I use bluefish to do my editing [08:33] does bluefish have a template already? === froud [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:33] it has some docbook stuff [08:33] Burgundavia: morn, c u have the same problem s as me [08:33] I mostly like to write everything by hand [08:33] froud, with jdub? [08:33] It is not just jdub [08:34] is a religious question [08:34] just trying to push it forward [08:34] give up dont waste your time [08:34] no, I refuse to give up [08:34] if they dont care why should we [08:34] oh well your funeral [08:35] I appreciat eyour support on this but really they have no clue and dont want to listen [08:35] personally I dont have the time to waste on such people === froud is getting really fucked off with things [08:36] this is not the first time [08:36] indeed [08:36] so this time I am just not going to worry myself on it [08:36] mark/mdz sounded supportize [08:36] wow, what a word [08:36] supportive, even [08:36] well I still wait for responses on several issues [08:37] until those are addressed, I hang low [08:37] when I get time I will commit [08:37] but I am not gonna stess myself for people who dont care to pull back [08:37] I can be more productive at the fringes [08:38] smaller projects [08:38] :( [08:38] like I did before the release on four or five apps [08:38] well, must goo, just cam eto say hi and let you know my feelings. [08:38] :( === froud is now known as froud-away [08:39] now you see why need to keep the momentum jstangco? [08:40] froud did a lot of work with that portal [08:40] just to see it disappear in smoke, or apparently [08:40] that is why I am not going to let it get away [08:40] I intend to be very persistent about making sure something this happens [08:42] well ok the portal can open up a lot of things for us but im not so optimistic about being able to use it in time for breezy [08:42] I am [08:43] I am because I have to be [08:43] docs don't take long to write [08:43] a "religious" issue? [08:43] once the thing is in place [08:43] golly [08:43] java [08:43] froud is seriously pissed [08:43] oh well [08:44] well ok the fridge is supposed to run something that elmo might not want to have but he's willing [08:44] fridge is read only [08:44] very very cool, but not what we are really looking for [08:44] if you and he can only express your point of view in these terms, i'm not really all that fussed [08:45] none of this really matters to a well functioning documentation team anyway [08:45] froud was the person that I spent the longest time convincing to make a portal [08:46] this is not something that we thought up over a weekend and pulled out of our ass [08:46] i don't think anyone's suggesting you did [08:46] that is why I find your attitude very annoyed and condecending, to tell you the truth [08:46] but there are quite a few people suggesting that it's unnecessarily complex for the task at hand [08:46] perhaps you should take a moment to think about it [08:46] like who? [08:46] you? [08:47] I haven't seen anybody say that [08:47] oh boy we could have done a lot of work already without this chit chat === jsgotangco away [08:53] jdub, what I guess it boils down to, is "if you build it, they will come" [08:54] Burgundavia: this is true of documentation, but not true of a web portal [08:54] Burgundavia: i'm happy to give you a phone call to describe why this entire discussion is a waste of time [08:54] can you suggest something better? [08:54] yes [08:55] the status-quo isn't working [08:55] heh [08:55] I am open to any sort of technology [08:55] the answer is not "more tools" or "bigger infrastructure" [08:55] and "more technology" is *definitely* not the answer to a social problem [08:56] jdub, I found another wiki last night [08:56] one for PPC [08:56] there is reason people are creating these wikis [08:57] i see you related our conversation yesterday as a "failure to communicate" [08:57] they are easy to create docs in [08:57] yes, because our current wiki is very difficult to use and inadequately maintained [08:57] if you still feel we failed to communicate, i'm very happy to call you [08:57] I am happy to have one big wiki for everything [08:57] but froud explained to me that keeping stuff in SVN is very useful [08:57] so I said, how do I marry the two concepts [08:58] for a certain class of documentation, sure [08:58] i think you are getting stuck on concepts and not thinking outside them [08:58] the biggest hole in our docs is short, wiki-style howtos [08:58] i disagree - there are plenty of things we can do to improve our documentation without writing anything at all [08:59] communication of where they are is huge [08:59] part of the portal plan was to move docs to something like help.ubuntu.com [08:59] and then advertise the crap out of it [08:59] and yet, the most important place for documentation is in the distribution itself [08:59] I agree there [08:59] i'm not really interested in this cyclical discussion [09:00] ok [09:00] if you want me to call, send me your details [09:00] 1-250-385-3507 [09:02] oh man [09:04] we can't stop people from making their own wikis/guides [09:05] if we make good docs that people trust, users would refer to our docs not to other wiki/guides that are suspect [09:05] :( === Burgundavia is the phone [09:05] i know [09:05] :( === jsgotangco can just imagine jdub's phone bill if he's not using VoIP [09:33] off the phone [09:33] I had a good conversation [09:33] jdub can bill it to canonical [09:33] jsgotangco: calling cards - very cheap :-) [09:34] even to Canada [09:34] the Hello! phone cards? [09:34] i bought those [09:34] heh [09:34] $10 can give you 300 minutes [09:34] that's the one :) [09:35] phone cards are a rip for short phone calls, however [09:35] ok so you two had a good chat i assume [09:35] yes [09:36] while not cured of my wanting a web portal, I am more convinced of jdubs way [09:36] hmmm can you elaborate? [09:36] I just had to remember that jdub got his job by being very smart [09:37] basically, the doc team needs some good direction [09:37] he suggested some good ways [09:37] such as finding/sorting/making available is a better way existing upstreamer docs === jsgotangco grumbles of not asking jdub how to be smart [09:38] I don't you think someone can tell you about how to be smart [09:38] ok go on [09:39] we talked about getting docs into scrollkeeper [09:39] which is the technical side of above [09:39] of which I know next to nothing about, but must learn [09:39] and we talked about the wiki transition [09:39] and wiki farming, etc. [09:40] I guess the biggest thing, was, we don't actually need to write docs [09:40] we just need to organize them more [09:40] which is sort of true [09:40] errmm i always had that thought [09:41] we still need some docs [09:41] the only thing that's stopping me from being the seb128 of docteam is that i know very little of docbook at the moment [09:41] but they can be small and mostly pointers [09:42] jsgotangco, I would say then, write in the wiki [09:42] we can worry about docbook closer to release [09:42] i really hate our wiki but i guess there is no point resisting that [09:42] I have a lot of very cool ideas, but then I start writing in docbook, and I got bored really quickly [09:43] docbook is for when you have already written the text [09:43] but writing is not the focus right now [09:43] hmm ok you have a point [09:43] what I am saying is what jdub said, which is completely right [09:43] the problem is that people need a quick and easy place to write [09:43] wiki is one solution [09:43] portal is another [09:44] but the other problem is we need to tell people how to find existing docs [09:45] thats where farming and culling comes in [09:45] which is a really messy thing to even start at [09:45] jsgotangco, this is more already packaged stuff [09:45] because there are dozens of forms that they are written in [09:45] and lots and lots of packages [09:46] jdub, you said we should get a script to cut packages apart and look for stuff to register in scrollkeeper? [09:47] do you know any scrollkeeper aware browser? [09:47] no idea [09:47] I am not a developer, nor do I really wish to be one [09:48] I write stuff, do talks and generally produce hot air [09:48] perfect [09:48] jsgotangco: yelp's index is built from the documentation registered with scrollkeeper [09:49] ah right i thought of yelp [09:49] but then scrollkeeper acts as middleman as well [09:49] I thought browser as web browser [09:51] im sure the major help browsers are scrollkeeper aware [09:51] I don't know if khelp is [09:51] that seemed to be a sticking point with scrollkeeper [09:51] I think it is gnome-specific [09:51] but my memory could be bad [09:51] khelpcenter has support [09:51] as well as nautilus [09:52] (nautilus's support was replaced with yelp) [09:52] but yelp replaced nautilus [09:52] you are correct [09:52] my memory was bad [09:52] as usual [09:53] jdub, is scrollkeeper really not had a release in 2 years> [09:54] s/is/has [09:54] jsgotangco, are you using xchat? [09:55] i am [09:55] have you noticed this bug? [09:55] where? [09:55] tab completion is sometimes case-sensitive, and sometimes not [09:55] oh [09:55] no i didn't notice that [09:55] I don't know if it a real bug, or my hallucinations [09:56] here is an example [09:56] i will try random [09:56] Andy vs anndy [09:57] if you type an, you will get Andy, but if you back up to An, it won't tab complete to anndy [09:57] no i didn't notice anything like that, unfortunately, i don't have an eye for such details [09:58] #ubuntu right now has AndyR and anathema [09:58] you can test it out [09:58] to see if I am not on crack === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.60.26] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:58] then I file the bug [10:03] it didnt happen to me [10:03] An still gave me AndyR [10:03] so did an [10:04] say again? [10:04] An and an gave me the same tab completed nick AndyR [10:05] they should [10:05] let AndyR complete [10:05] then deleted to AN [10:05] even if i back up to An it still gave the same result [10:05] sorry [10:05] An [10:05] it still works [10:06] the list for an is AndyR, anubis [10:06] sorry [10:06] is AndyR, anathema [10:06] you get 2 results? [10:06] the list for An is AndyR, Anubis [10:06] that is just the first to results [10:07] as hitting tab again selects the next nick [10:07] i get all an nicks irregardless of case [10:07] odd [10:07] so An and an both get AndyR, then anathema [10:07] yes [10:07] hmm [10:07] wait [10:08] An i only get AndyR and Anubis [10:08] yep [10:08] that is the bug [10:08] but an i get all of them [10:08] I think the devs were trying to be smart [10:08] and think that An would only be looking for capital A [10:09] but they failed to realize what would happen if some tab completed the wrong nick [10:09] and just deleted the number of letters to make it common [10:09] if you type a then tab, you get a list of all A/a nicks [10:09] but if you type A then tab, you only get A nicks [10:10] wrong nick after tab completion happens for fast fingers [10:10] ugh, I have to use sf.net bug tracker === Burgundavia shoots himself [10:15] gah [10:16] I can't wait until malone rocks [10:17] we need docteam love [10:17] docteam love? [10:17] we need a good direction [10:17] I can't provide that [10:17] you can try === jsgotangco not cut enough at the moment [10:18] I don't know where we need to go [10:19] ok ill do breezy tommorow and check where we can start [10:19] we need people with clear vision [10:19] I don't have that when it comes to the docteam [10:20] because I don't understand a lot of the technical side of things [10:21] im not good on that either but im learning [10:21] there is the clear disconnect [10:21] it is very frustrating [10:21] because I realise how little interest I actually have in mucking with those kinds of details [10:22] hmm lugradio really trashed ubuntu heh [10:23] the mad philantrophist [10:23] doh [10:23] they even mentioned me [10:23] lugradio actually love ubuntu [10:24] hmmm i probably missed you there [10:24] right at the end, in the email section [10:24] my real name is Corey Burger [10:24] yeah ill just listen to it again tonight [10:25] generally it was good [10:25] even though the linspire guy was pure marketing [10:25] heh [10:26] the only real technical guy here who's capable of this stuff is froud at the moment [10:26] yes [10:26] or jeff perhaps if he's willing? [10:26] jeffsch i mean [10:27] no idea, I have not interacted much with him [10:27] but i think both are quite busy atm [10:29] maybe a devel should mentor us at least? [10:29] that is something I thought of [10:29] jdub is going to email the list with specifics [10:29] and then we can go from there [10:30] thats a good start [10:46] brb === cc [~cc@c210-49-121-44.eburwd3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === maskie [~maskie@196-30-109-138.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:59] Burgundavia, do you use f-spot? [11:00] nope [11:00] don't own a camera [11:00] ok it just froze on me hmm [11:00] f-spot is very cool, but quite alpha [11:00] very [11:44] http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/ [11:44] just some photos [11:51] cool [12:37] bye bye === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud-away [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud-away [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] [04:06] Burgundavia: Didn't have to be pacient for long, I got the Ubuntu CD:s today (though the bag looked like it had gone to hell and back). [04:06] ^--- patient even [04:11] is that the free cds from shipit? === cc [~cc@byte.fedora] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:49] jjesse: Yes. I ordered 8 x86 and one ppc and one amd64. They arrived in an envelope that had been so poorly treated it resembled a bag. [05:49] The envelope had a bubble wrapped inside. === mdke [~mdke@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [06:30] hi all === maskie [~maskie@196-30-108-203.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === thegreedyturtle [~thegreedy@user-0c93oto.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000c6e369955.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.94.81.18] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:10] jiyuu0- sent you a pm on ubuntuforums.org [10:12] you'll have to tell me if the torrent works for ya, luckily ubuntu comes with gnome-torrent preinstalled, so it should be very easy for newbies to get their hands on it === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000c6e369955.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc === thegreedyturtle [~thegreedy@user-0c93oto.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000c6e369955.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000c6e369955.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc