[12:43] <Burgundavia> I got mentioned in lugradio
[01:09] <mpt> Well that makes two of us, Burgundavia :-)
[01:10] <mpt> What were they talking about?
[01:14] <Burgundavia> generally making fun of my name and reading my letter out
[01:15] <Burgundavia> then they talked about non-free launchpad
[02:17] <mpt> ah
[02:17] <mpt> So they discovered non-free Launchpad *after* voting Ubuntu as Least Evil Distribution
[02:20] <Burgundavia> indeed
[02:20] <Burgundavia> well
[02:20] <Burgundavia> technically, launchpad != ubuntu
[02:21] <mpt> sure
[02:21] <Burgundavia> but they are going to be tied together
[02:21] <mpt> and such fine distinctions would certainly be lost on those guys
[02:21] <Burgundavia> http://www.spicetrade.org/ <-- this looks really cool, but has java deps out the wazoo
[04:44] <jsgotangco> morning
[07:16] <jsgotangco> brb
[08:28] <jsgotangco> conglomerate is so buggy
[08:32] <Burgundavia> indeed
[08:32] <Burgundavia> I use bluefish to do my editing
[08:33] <jsgotangco> does bluefish have a template already?
[08:33] <Burgundavia> it has some docbook stuff
[08:33] <froud> Burgundavia: morn, c u have the same problem s as me
[08:33] <Burgundavia> I mostly like to write everything by hand
[08:33] <Burgundavia> froud, with jdub?
[08:33] <froud> It is not just jdub
[08:34] <froud> is a religious question
[08:34] <Burgundavia> just trying to push it forward
[08:34] <froud> give up dont waste your time
[08:34] <Burgundavia> no, I refuse to give up
[08:34] <froud> if they dont care why should we
[08:34] <froud> oh well your funeral
[08:35] <froud> I appreciat eyour support on this but really they have no clue and dont want to listen
[08:35] <froud> personally I dont have the time to waste on such people
[08:36] <froud> this is not the first time
[08:36] <Burgundavia> indeed
[08:36] <froud> so this time I am just not going to worry myself on it
[08:36] <Burgundavia> mark/mdz sounded supportize
[08:36] <Burgundavia> wow, what a word
[08:36] <Burgundavia> supportive, even
[08:36] <froud> well I still wait for responses on several issues
[08:37] <froud> until those are addressed, I hang low
[08:37] <froud> when I get time I will commit
[08:37] <froud> but I am not gonna stess myself for people who dont care to pull back
[08:37] <froud> I can be more productive at the fringes
[08:38] <froud> smaller projects
[08:38] <jsgotangco> :(
[08:38] <froud> like I did before the release on four or five apps
[08:38] <froud> well, must goo, just cam eto say hi and let you know my feelings.
[08:38] <jsgotangco> :(
[08:39] <Burgundavia> now you see why need to keep the momentum jstangco?
[08:40] <Burgundavia> froud did a lot of work with that portal
[08:40] <Burgundavia> just to see it disappear in smoke, or apparently
[08:40] <Burgundavia> that is why I am not going to let it get away
[08:40] <Burgundavia> I intend to be very persistent about making sure something this happens
[08:42] <jsgotangco> well ok the portal can open up a lot of things for us but im not so optimistic about being able to use it in time for breezy
[08:42] <Burgundavia> I am
[08:43] <Burgundavia> I am because I have to be
[08:43] <Burgundavia> docs don't take long to write
[08:43] <jdub> a "religious" issue?
[08:43] <Burgundavia> once the thing is in place
[08:43] <jdub> golly
[08:43] <Burgundavia> java
[08:43] <Burgundavia> froud is seriously pissed
[08:43] <jdub> oh well
[08:44] <jsgotangco> well ok the fridge is supposed to run something that elmo might not want to have but he's willing
[08:44] <Burgundavia> fridge is read only
[08:44] <Burgundavia> very very cool, but not what we are really looking for
[08:44] <jdub> if you and he can only express your point of view in these terms, i'm not really all that fussed
[08:45] <jdub> none of this really matters to a well functioning documentation team anyway
[08:45] <Burgundavia> froud was the person that I spent the longest time convincing to make a portal
[08:46] <Burgundavia> this is not something that we thought up over a weekend and pulled out of our ass
[08:46] <jdub> i don't think anyone's suggesting you did
[08:46] <Burgundavia> that is why I find your attitude very annoyed and condecending, to tell you the truth
[08:46] <jdub> but there are quite a few people suggesting that it's unnecessarily complex for the task at hand
[08:46] <jdub> perhaps you should take a moment to think about it
[08:46] <Burgundavia> like who?
[08:46] <Burgundavia> you?
[08:47] <Burgundavia> I haven't seen anybody say that
[08:47] <jsgotangco> oh boy we could have done a lot of work already without this chit chat
[08:53] <Burgundavia> jdub, what I guess it boils down to, is "if you build it, they will come"
[08:54] <jdub> Burgundavia: this is true of documentation, but not true of a web portal
[08:54] <jdub> Burgundavia: i'm happy to give you a phone call to describe why this entire discussion is a waste of time
[08:54] <Burgundavia> can you suggest something better?
[08:54] <jdub> yes
[08:55] <Burgundavia> the status-quo isn't working
[08:55] <jdub> heh
[08:55] <Burgundavia> I am open to any sort of technology
[08:55] <jdub> the answer is not "more tools" or "bigger infrastructure"
[08:55] <jdub> and "more technology" is *definitely* not the answer to a social problem
[08:56] <Burgundavia> jdub, I found another wiki last night
[08:56] <Burgundavia> one for PPC
[08:56] <Burgundavia> there is reason people are creating these wikis
[08:57] <jdub> i see you related our conversation yesterday as a "failure to communicate"
[08:57] <Burgundavia> they are easy to create docs in
[08:57] <jdub> yes, because our current wiki is very difficult to use and inadequately maintained
[08:57] <jdub> if you still feel we failed to communicate, i'm very happy to call you
[08:57] <Burgundavia> I am happy to have one big wiki for everything
[08:57] <Burgundavia> but froud explained to me that keeping stuff in SVN is very useful
[08:57] <Burgundavia> so I said, how do I marry the two concepts
[08:58] <jdub> for a certain class of documentation, sure
[08:58] <jdub> i think you are getting stuck on concepts and not thinking outside them
[08:58] <Burgundavia> the biggest hole in our docs is short, wiki-style howtos
[08:58] <jdub> i disagree - there are plenty of things we can do to improve our documentation without writing anything at all
[08:59] <Burgundavia> communication of where they are is huge
[08:59] <Burgundavia> part of the portal plan was to move docs to something like help.ubuntu.com
[08:59] <Burgundavia> and then advertise the crap out of it
[08:59] <jdub> and yet, the most important place for documentation is in the distribution itself
[08:59] <Burgundavia> I agree there
[08:59] <jdub> i'm not really interested in this cyclical discussion
[09:00] <Burgundavia> ok
[09:00] <jdub> if you want me to call, send me your details
[09:00] <Burgundavia> 1-250-385-3507
[09:02] <jsgotangco> oh man
[09:04] <jsgotangco> we can't stop people from making their own wikis/guides
[09:05] <jsgotangco> if we make good docs that people trust, users would refer to our docs not to other wiki/guides that are suspect
[09:05] <jsgotangco> :(
[09:05] <jsgotangco> i know
[09:05] <jsgotangco> :(
[09:33] <Burgundavia> off the phone
[09:33] <Burgundavia> I had a good conversation
[09:33] <Burgundavia> jdub can bill it to canonical
[09:33] <jdub> jsgotangco: calling cards - very cheap :-)
[09:34] <Burgundavia> even to Canada
[09:34] <jsgotangco> the Hello! phone cards?
[09:34] <jsgotangco> i bought those
[09:34] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:34] <jsgotangco> $10 can give you 300 minutes
[09:34] <jdub> that's the one :)
[09:35] <Burgundavia> phone cards are a rip for short phone calls, however
[09:35] <jsgotangco> ok so you two had a good chat i assume
[09:35] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:36] <Burgundavia> while not cured of my wanting a web portal, I am more convinced of jdubs way
[09:36] <jsgotangco> hmmm can you elaborate?
[09:36] <Burgundavia> I just had to remember that jdub got his job by being very smart
[09:37] <Burgundavia> basically, the doc team needs some good direction
[09:37] <Burgundavia> he suggested some good ways
[09:37] <Burgundavia> such as finding/sorting/making available is a better way existing upstreamer docs
[09:38] <Burgundavia> I don't you think someone can tell you about how to be smart
[09:38] <jsgotangco> ok go on
[09:39] <Burgundavia> we talked about getting docs into scrollkeeper
[09:39] <Burgundavia> which is the technical side of above
[09:39] <Burgundavia> of which I know next to nothing about, but must learn
[09:39] <Burgundavia> and we talked about the wiki transition
[09:39] <Burgundavia> and wiki farming, etc.
[09:40] <Burgundavia> I guess the biggest thing, was, we don't actually need to write docs
[09:40] <Burgundavia> we just need to organize them more
[09:40] <Burgundavia> which is sort of true
[09:40] <jsgotangco> errmm i always had that thought
[09:41] <Burgundavia> we still need some docs
[09:41] <jsgotangco> the only thing that's stopping me from being the seb128 of docteam is that i know very little of docbook at the moment
[09:41] <Burgundavia> but they can be small and mostly pointers
[09:42] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I would say then, write in the wiki
[09:42] <Burgundavia> we can worry about docbook closer to release
[09:42] <jsgotangco> i really hate our wiki but i guess there is no point resisting that
[09:42] <Burgundavia> I have a lot of very cool ideas, but then I start writing in docbook, and I got bored really quickly
[09:43] <Burgundavia> docbook is for when you have already written the text
[09:43] <Burgundavia> but writing is not the focus right now
[09:43] <jsgotangco> hmm ok you have a point
[09:43] <Burgundavia> what I am saying is what jdub said, which is completely right
[09:43] <Burgundavia> the problem is that people need a quick and easy place to write
[09:43] <Burgundavia> wiki is one solution
[09:43] <Burgundavia> portal is another
[09:44] <Burgundavia> but the other problem is we need to tell people how to find existing docs
[09:45] <jsgotangco> thats where farming and culling comes in
[09:45] <Burgundavia> which is a really messy thing to even start at
[09:45] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, this is more already packaged stuff
[09:45] <Burgundavia> because there are dozens of forms that they are written in
[09:45] <Burgundavia> and lots and lots of packages
[09:46] <Burgundavia> jdub, you said we should get a script to cut packages apart and look for stuff to register in scrollkeeper?
[09:47] <jsgotangco> do you know any scrollkeeper aware browser?
[09:47] <Burgundavia> no idea
[09:47] <Burgundavia> I am not a developer, nor do I really wish to be one
[09:48] <Burgundavia> I write stuff, do talks and generally produce hot air
[09:48] <jsgotangco> perfect
[09:48] <jdub> jsgotangco: yelp's index is built from the documentation registered with scrollkeeper
[09:49] <jsgotangco> ah right i thought of yelp
[09:49] <jsgotangco> but then scrollkeeper acts as middleman as well
[09:49] <Burgundavia> I thought browser as web browser
[09:51] <jsgotangco> im sure the major help browsers are scrollkeeper aware
[09:51] <Burgundavia> I don't know if khelp is
[09:51] <Burgundavia> that seemed to be a sticking point with scrollkeeper
[09:51] <Burgundavia> I think it is gnome-specific
[09:51] <Burgundavia> but my memory could be bad
[09:51] <jsgotangco> khelpcenter has support
[09:51] <jsgotangco> as well as nautilus
[09:52] <jdub> (nautilus's support was replaced with yelp)
[09:52] <jsgotangco> but yelp replaced nautilus
[09:52] <Burgundavia> you are correct
[09:52] <Burgundavia> my memory was bad
[09:52] <Burgundavia> as usual
[09:53] <Burgundavia> jdub, is scrollkeeper really not had a release in 2 years>
[09:54] <Burgundavia> s/is/has
[09:54] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, are you using xchat?
[09:55] <jsgotangco> i am
[09:55] <Burgundavia> have you noticed this bug?
[09:55] <jsgotangco> where?
[09:55] <Burgundavia> tab completion is sometimes case-sensitive, and sometimes not
[09:55] <jsgotangco> oh
[09:55] <jsgotangco> no i didn't notice that
[09:55] <Burgundavia> I don't know if it a real bug, or my hallucinations
[09:56] <Burgundavia> here is an example
[09:56] <jsgotangco> i will try random
[09:56] <Burgundavia> Andy vs anndy
[09:57] <Burgundavia> if you type an, you will get Andy, but if you back up to An, it won't tab complete to anndy
[09:57] <jsgotangco> no i didn't notice anything like that, unfortunately, i don't have an eye for such details
[09:58] <Burgundavia>  #ubuntu right now has AndyR and anathema
[09:58] <Burgundavia> you can test it out
[09:58] <Burgundavia> to see if I am not on crack
[09:58] <Burgundavia> then I file the bug
[10:03] <jsgotangco> it didnt happen to me
[10:03] <jsgotangco> An still gave me AndyR
[10:03] <jsgotangco> so did an
[10:04] <Burgundavia> say again?
[10:04] <jsgotangco> An and an gave me the same tab completed nick AndyR
[10:05] <Burgundavia> they should
[10:05] <Burgundavia> let AndyR complete
[10:05] <Burgundavia> then deleted to AN
[10:05] <jsgotangco> even if i back up to An it still gave the same result
[10:05] <Burgundavia> sorry
[10:05] <Burgundavia> An
[10:05] <jsgotangco> it still works
[10:06] <Burgundavia> the list for an is AndyR, anubis
[10:06] <Burgundavia> sorry
[10:06] <Burgundavia> is AndyR, anathema
[10:06] <jsgotangco> you get 2 results?
[10:06] <Burgundavia> the list for An is AndyR, Anubis
[10:06] <Burgundavia> that is just the first to results
[10:07] <Burgundavia> as hitting tab again selects the next nick
[10:07] <jsgotangco> i get all an nicks irregardless of case
[10:07] <Burgundavia> odd
[10:07] <Burgundavia> so An and an both get AndyR, then anathema
[10:07] <jsgotangco> yes
[10:07] <jsgotangco> hmm
[10:07] <jsgotangco> wait
[10:08] <jsgotangco> An i only get AndyR and Anubis
[10:08] <Burgundavia> yep
[10:08] <Burgundavia> that is the bug
[10:08] <jsgotangco> but an i get all of them
[10:08] <Burgundavia> I think the devs were trying to be smart
[10:08] <Burgundavia> and think that An would only be looking for capital A
[10:09] <Burgundavia> but they failed to realize what would happen if some tab completed the wrong nick
[10:09] <Burgundavia> and just deleted the number of letters to make it common
[10:09] <jsgotangco> if you type a then tab, you get a list of all A/a nicks
[10:09] <jsgotangco> but if you type A then tab, you only get A nicks
[10:10] <jsgotangco> wrong nick after tab completion happens for fast fingers
[10:10] <Burgundavia> ugh, I have to use sf.net bug tracker
[10:15] <Burgundavia> gah
[10:16] <Burgundavia> I can't wait until malone rocks
[10:17] <jsgotangco> we need docteam love
[10:17] <Burgundavia> docteam love?
[10:17] <Burgundavia> we need a good direction
[10:17] <Burgundavia> I can't provide that
[10:17] <jsgotangco> you can try
[10:18] <Burgundavia> I don't know where we need to go
[10:19] <jsgotangco> ok ill do breezy tommorow and check where we can start
[10:19] <Burgundavia> we need people with clear vision
[10:19] <Burgundavia> I don't have that when it comes to the docteam
[10:20] <Burgundavia> because I don't understand a lot of the technical side of things
[10:21] <jsgotangco> im not good on that either but im learning
[10:21] <Burgundavia> there is the clear disconnect
[10:21] <Burgundavia> it is very frustrating
[10:21] <Burgundavia> because I realise how little interest I actually have in mucking with those kinds of details
[10:22] <jsgotangco> hmm lugradio really trashed ubuntu heh
[10:23] <jsgotangco> the mad philantrophist
[10:23] <jsgotangco> doh
[10:23] <Burgundavia> they even mentioned me
[10:23] <Burgundavia> lugradio actually love ubuntu
[10:24] <jsgotangco> hmmm i probably missed you there
[10:24] <Burgundavia> right at the end, in the email section
[10:24] <Burgundavia> my real name is Corey Burger
[10:24] <jsgotangco> yeah ill just listen to it again tonight
[10:25] <Burgundavia> generally it was good
[10:25] <Burgundavia> even though the linspire guy was pure marketing
[10:25] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:26] <jsgotangco> the only real technical guy here who's capable of this stuff is froud at the moment
[10:26] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:26] <jsgotangco> or jeff perhaps if he's willing?
[10:26] <jsgotangco> jeffsch i mean
[10:27] <Burgundavia> no idea, I have not interacted much with him
[10:27] <jsgotangco> but i think both are quite busy atm
[10:29] <jsgotangco> maybe a devel should mentor us at least?
[10:29] <Burgundavia> that is something I thought of
[10:29] <Burgundavia> jdub is going to email the list with specifics
[10:29] <Burgundavia> and then we can go from there
[10:30] <jsgotangco> thats a good start
[10:46] <jsgotangco> brb
[10:59] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, do you use f-spot?
[11:00] <Burgundavia> nope
[11:00] <Burgundavia> don't own a camera
[11:00] <jsgotangco> ok it just froze on me hmm
[11:00] <Burgundavia> f-spot is very cool, but quite alpha
[11:00] <jsgotangco> very
[11:44] <jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/
[11:44] <jsgotangco> just some photos
[11:51] <Burgundavia> cool
[12:37] <jsgotangco> bye bye
[04:06] <mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Didn't have to be pacient for long, I got the Ubuntu CD:s today (though the bag looked like it had gone to hell and back).
[04:06] <mvirkkil> ^--- patient even
[04:11] <jjesse> is that the free cds from shipit?
[05:49] <mvirkkil> jjesse: Yes. I ordered 8 x86 and one ppc and one amd64. They arrived in an envelope that had been so poorly treated it resembled a bag. 
[05:49] <mvirkkil> The envelope had a bubble wrapped inside.
[06:30] <mdke> hi all
[10:10] <thegreedyturtle> jiyuu0- sent you a pm on ubuntuforums.org
[10:12] <thegreedyturtle> you'll have to tell me if the torrent works for ya, luckily ubuntu comes with gnome-torrent preinstalled, so it should be very easy for newbies to get their hands on it