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| === Topic for #ubuntu-meeting: Tue 24 May 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 17 May 20:00 UTC: Tech Board || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-meeting): set by dholbach at Tue May 10 20:06:03 2005 | ||
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| === ogra gets some coffee | ||
| dholbach | get me a cup as well | 08:56 |
|---|---|---|
| dholbach | please :-) | 08:56 |
| ogra | sure | 08:56 |
| \sh | hmmm... | 08:56 |
| === siretart just got back from dinner ;) | ||
| Nafallo | hmm, I wonder if I need workrave or something... | 08:57 |
| dholbach | workrave is gooood | 08:57 |
| === jani [~pet@Home03207.cluj.astral.ro] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| ogra | silly sheep... | 08:58 |
| jani | hello all | 08:58 |
| dholbach | hai jani | 08:58 |
| tritium | doh! I forgot the doughnuts... | 08:58 |
| === ogra prefers gnome-typing-monitor | ||
| Nafallo | the damn thing was irritating last time I tried ;-) | 08:58 |
| \sh | who or what is workrave? | 08:58 |
| ogra | \sh, install it | 08:58 |
| \sh | ogra: no...the last time you said this, i had to become a ubuntu addict ... ;) | 08:59 |
| ogra | hehe | 08:59 |
| \sh | +n | 08:59 |
| Nafallo | hehe | 08:59 |
| siretart | ah, you mean the package workrave. :) | 08:59 |
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| ajmitch_ | morning | 09:00 |
| dholbach | hey ajmitch_ | 09:00 |
| crimsun | (will be in and out for a few more minutes, talking with boss) | 09:01 |
| dholbach | crimsun: good luck | 09:01 |
| jani | guys a question re. BOF specs | 09:02 |
| === chmj [~charles@wbs-196-46-69-187.wbs.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| jani | what's with those like | 09:02 |
| jani | http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmaImplementation | 09:02 |
| ajmitch_ | hi chmj | 09:02 |
| === ogra puts a huge, hot steaming well flavored pot of coffe on the table | ||
| jani | they link to password protected area on canonical.com | 09:02 |
| ogra | milk | 09:02 |
| ogra | ` | 09:02 |
| === ajmitch_ drinks it all | ||
| ogra | ? | 09:02 |
| ogra | sugar ? | 09:02 |
| dholbach | just sugar, thanks | 09:03 |
| \sh | no milk no sugar just black... | 09:03 |
| dholbach | jani: those are for the malone/launchpad crew, i'm not sure when it will hit us other guys | 09:03 |
| jani | dholbach, thanks | 09:03 |
| chmj | hi ajmitch_ | 09:03 |
| \sh | oh malone...is it working again? | 09:04 |
| dholbach | ok... can we get cracking? | 09:04 |
| dholbach | doko just finished briefing us about our next big target: UniverseCxxTransition | 09:04 |
| dholbach | you will find the rationale for all this well described on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreezyToolchainTransition | 09:05 |
| dholbach | maybe we should all dive into it for some seconds :-) | 09:05 |
| === ogra points to #ubuntu-toolchain for toolchain specific questions after this meeting..... | ||
| dholbach | especially the points after "C++ ABI Transition" are of big importance for all of us | 09:06 |
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| dholbach | in short: as the C++ ABI with g++4.0 will break we will have to recompile ALL c++ packages | 09:07 |
| dholbach | unfortunately just recompiling wont suffice | 09:07 |
| ajmitch_ | which means finding any package that uses c++ | 09:07 |
| dholbach | doko did a lot of work on this already: CxxLibraryList | 09:07 |
| ogra | which means we have to do it bottom up... | 09:07 |
| dholbach | ... will be our first taget | 09:07 |
| === Danten [~danten@h40n8c1o1049.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| dholbach | the attack plan is something like this: | 09:08 |
| dholbach | 1) freeze c++ applications from uploads | 09:08 |
| siretart | ajmitch_: these should be able to identify by looking at the reverse dependencies of libstdc++6 | 09:08 |
| dholbach | 2) fix libraries | 09:08 |
| dholbach | 3) fix applications using c++ | 09:08 |
| ogra | uploads of apps that use c++ will be rejected until the libs are all built | 09:08 |
| ajmitch_ | siretart: sadly, that doesn't find them all | 09:08 |
| siretart | mostly ;) | 09:08 |
| ogra | ajmitch_, you dont have to care for the apps yet | 09:09 |
| dholbach | if you have a look at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList and https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxApplicationList you will see nice lists of them | 09:09 |
| chmj | that means the libs must be done quickly, I suppose | 09:09 |
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| ogra | just have a look at every app you upload and drop the upload if its c++ | 09:09 |
| dholbach | we will do a nice and clean job, but the sooner the better | 09:09 |
| ogra | chmj, right | 09:09 |
| ajmitch_ | shouldn't take much more than a week ;) | 09:10 |
| dholbach | now: what we will have to do is: applying patches, if stuff doesnt build - gladly debian provided us with loads of patches for that | 09:10 |
| ogra | we agreed with doko to start on Tuesday with the transition | 09:10 |
| chmj | UTC ? | 09:10 |
| dholbach | and changing the library package name | 09:10 |
| dholbach | the binary package, not the source package | 09:10 |
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| dholbach | as you can see on BreezyToolchainTransition we will add a "c2" | 09:11 |
| \sh | i see a lot of qt and kde stuff | 09:11 |
| ogra | chmj, we didnt agree on a time, heh | 09:11 |
| ogra | \sh, yep... | 09:11 |
| Riddell | \sh: that'll be the C++ :) | 09:11 |
| dholbach | \sh: this is where Riddell steps in | 09:11 |
| === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-30-146.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| doko | chmj: we'll post the exact date | 09:11 |
| \sh | as i heard on kde rumors ;) are telling that gcc 4 is in the moment a "nono" | 09:12 |
| doko | and time ... | 09:12 |
| ajmitch_ | hello seb | 09:12 |
| seb128 | hi | 09:12 |
| \sh | Riddell: am i right? | 09:12 |
| minghua | dholbach: or remove c102 if it exists :-) | 09:12 |
| ogra | \sh, for 3.4 ? | 09:12 |
| seb128 | meetings marathon? :) | 09:12 |
| dholbach | minghua: exactly | 09:12 |
| Riddell | \sh: I'm reliably told that we have a cvs version of gcc which inclues the fix for the KDE problems | 09:12 |
| \sh | ogra: 4.x is far away ; | 09:12 |
| dholbach | you can read the "naming conventions" on BreezyToolchainTransition | 09:12 |
| \sh | Riddell: sounds great | 09:13 |
| dholbach | we will start on CxxLibraryList and the implementation plan can be found on top | 09:13 |
| dholbach | 1) mark the package in the list with your name | 09:13 |
| ogra | if you find omething you dont understand, feel free to ask us, we will point you kindly to doko then ;) | 09:13 |
| doko | Riddell: the upstream changelogs are included in the gcc binaries as well, so you can search for the bug number | 09:13 |
| dholbach | 2) look for patches in either bugzilla.ubuntu.com (for main) or on UniverseCxxTransition for universe | 09:13 |
| doko | ogra sees a flying toaster ... | 09:13 |
| ogra | heh | 09:14 |
| === siretart is a bit confused. Will the default be gcc-3.4 or gcc-4.0? | ||
| ajmitch_ | 4.0 | 09:14 |
| === ogra ducks | ||
| dholbach | 3) For each library (for universe as well), create a bug report at http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/, the subject/title must start with [CXX transition] <source name> | 09:14 |
| ogra | siretart, 4 | 09:14 |
| siretart | ok | 09:14 |
| dholbach | and 4) attach the debdiff | 09:14 |
| ogra | dholbach, do we write that down anywhere = | 09:14 |
| ogra | ? | 09:14 |
| dholbach | ogra: what exactly? | 09:15 |
| ogra | your four points | 09:15 |
| ajmitch_ | ogra: all on the CxxLibraryList page | 09:15 |
| ogra | oh | 09:15 |
| dholbach | yeah | 09:15 |
| === ogra blushes.... | ||
| dholbach | we won't have to change the build-depends (generally) | 09:15 |
| ogra | tables are to fascinating to me.... | 09:15 |
| dholbach | since dpkg-shlideps will work it out for us | 09:15 |
| dholbach | any questions? | 09:16 |
| \sh | hmmm... | 09:16 |
| ajmitch_ | when will the compiler be switched? | 09:16 |
| \sh | missing packages? | 09:16 |
| \sh | should we put them directly on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList | 09:16 |
| ogra | ajmitch_, it already is | 09:16 |
| \sh | ? | 09:16 |
| dholbach | ajmitch_: we will start on tuesday | 09:17 |
| ogra | \sh, sure... and note it in the comment | 09:17 |
| ajmitch_ | ok | 09:17 |
| chmj | ajmitch_, its switched already | 09:17 |
| dholbach | everybody has to be sure to have build-essential of version 11 installed | 09:17 |
| siretart | are there any special actions planned for java apps? | 09:17 |
| === ajmitch_ must have missed the switch.. | ||
| minghua | dholbach: I have a question about how the CxxLibraryList is made | 09:17 |
| doko | ajmitch_: and all the details on the BreezyToolchainTransition page | 09:17 |
| minghua | dholbach: I am looking at my (Debian) package scim, and see that scim-gtk2-immodule is listed | 09:17 |
| dholbach | minghua: ask doko | 09:17 |
| ogra | doko ? do we bug you or jbailey for java ? | 09:18 |
| minghua | dholbach: okay | 09:18 |
| doko | heh, jbailey should be fine :) | 09:18 |
| ogra | ok | 09:18 |
| Nafallo | dholbach: version 11 is to be found where? | 09:18 |
| dholbach | \sh: what do you mean by missing packages? | 09:18 |
| === ajmitch_ enjoys bugging jbailey :) | ||
| chmj | ogra, carefull, he don't like java | 09:18 |
| ogra | Nafallo, in breezy ? | 09:18 |
| \sh | dholbach: like python-sip python-qt and stuff :) | 09:18 |
| dholbach | Nafallo, ogra: will be uploaded by then | 09:19 |
| ogra | chmj, _wo_ likes it ? | 09:19 |
| minghua | doko: scim-gtk2-immodule only contains gtk2 dynamic loaded module in /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.4.0/immodules, why is it on CxxLibraryList? | 09:19 |
| ogra | who even | 09:19 |
| Nafallo | dholbach: oki :-) | 09:19 |
| chmj | sun, microsystems :p | 09:19 |
| Nafallo | ogra: 10.1ubuntu1 atm :-) | 09:19 |
| ogra | heh | 09:19 |
| doko | Nafallo: wait, I'll upload test packages | 09:19 |
| dholbach | we also have #ubuntu-java | 09:19 |
| Nafallo | doko: oki :-) | 09:19 |
| tritium | dholbach, build-essential=11 installed locally? Can we not build in a breezy pbuilder chroot on a hoary install? | 09:19 |
| dholbach | breezy pbuilder will be fine | 09:19 |
| tritium | ok | 09:20 |
| dholbach | if you should run into questions and they get answered somewhere... make sure you write it down on the wiki :-) | 09:20 |
| ajmitch_ | sure | 09:20 |
| \sh | hmm.<mindnote>write howto work with two pbuilder enviroments</mindnote> | 09:20 |
| ajmitch_ | what else would I do with my weekend? ;) | 09:20 |
| ogra | \sh, why two ? | 09:20 |
| \sh | ogra: hoary and breezy...I like comparisons :) | 09:21 |
| Nafallo | \sh: make that three and I'll be happy to :-). | 09:21 |
| dholbach | we'll have BIG FUN and will do the job admirably :-) | 09:21 |
| ogra | will we ? | 09:21 |
| Simira | Nafallo: did you stop hanging out on #d-w? | 09:21 |
| dholbach | of course! | 09:21 |
| \sh | Nafallo: three? for what? breezy unstable, ah ok ;) | 09:21 |
| ogra | YEAH !! | 09:21 |
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| Nafallo | Simira: yea, I've dropped out of debian for the moment ;-). | 09:22 |
| ogra | lets have FUN !! | 09:22 |
| Nafallo | \sh: warty-security? :-) | 09:22 |
| dholbach | the attack plan is clear? | 09:22 |
| ajmitch_ | sure | 09:22 |
| ajmitch_ | ogra: bringing the beer? ;) | 09:22 |
| chmj | dholbach, seems to be clear enough | 09:22 |
| \sh | Nafallo: oh...hmmm...well if i can configure two...i think we can extend it to three easily | 09:22 |
| ogra | ajmitch_, VB ? | 09:22 |
| Nafallo | dang. I thought I would sleep this week ;-). | 09:22 |
| Nafallo | \sh: :-) | 09:22 |
| \sh | dholbach: ETA? | 09:23 |
| dholbach | Nafallo: we start next week :-) | 09:23 |
| ajmitch_ | ogra: that'll be fine.. | 09:23 |
| === jbailey [~jbailey@dhcp802-2-37.dsl.ucc-net.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| ajmitch_ | jeff! | 09:23 |
| dholbach | it will all depend on us (and the guys doing it in main) | 09:23 |
| ogra | jbailey, to late | 09:23 |
| === minghua is going to set up a breezy chroot this weekend | ||
| Nafallo | dholbach: oki :-) | 09:23 |
| ogra | jbailey, you already have the task :) | 09:23 |
| ajmitch_ | dholbach: only a couple of days of work :) | 09:23 |
| \sh | Riddell: amu will help with the kde stuff? | 09:23 |
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| jbailey | ogra: Joy. What meeting is this? =) | 09:24 |
| Riddell | \sh: dunno, better ask him | 09:24 |
| \sh | ajmitch_: lucky one..u have a blade cluster somewhere? ,-) so we can use it for doing it all on one day ;) | 09:24 |
| dholbach | as i see it, we have to thank http://bugs.debian.org/from:aj@andaco.de if we make it fast | 09:24 |
| dholbach | jbailey: c++ transition motu briefing | 09:24 |
| === Danten [~danten@h40n8c1o1049.bredband.skanova.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] | ||
| ajmitch_ | \sh: heh, I wish :) | 09:24 |
| ogra | jbailey, toolchain | 09:24 |
| \sh | Riddell: ok..i'm on the kde site of the fun :) | 09:24 |
| ogra | jbailey, ... which includes java as well.... | 09:25 |
| jbailey | Ah, lovely. =) | 09:25 |
| Nafallo | dholbach: sure. each person sends one mail right? ;-) | 09:25 |
| Riddell | \sh: woo | 09:25 |
| dholbach | Nafallo: :-) | 09:25 |
| ogra | jbailey, so youre our designated java guru now.... | 09:25 |
| jbailey | Luvly. | 09:25 |
| \sh | Riddell: have to talk to you anyways :) later ;) | 09:25 |
| ogra | :) | 09:25 |
| \sh | ok starting time tuesday cero hundred hours | 09:26 |
| siretart | :) | 09:27 |
| === chmj write an email to aj@andaco.de about the 32 patches he already used | ||
| dholbach | ok... if there are no more questions (thanks doko for your documentation), this will be the fastest meeting ever | 09:27 |
| ajmitch_ | yay! :) | 09:27 |
| seb128 | ;) | 09:27 |
| ajmitch_ | it's the 4th or 5th meeting this week? :) | 09:27 |
| \sh | ay | 09:27 |
| jani | cannot the work begin now and only after g++4.0 is in things compiled? | 09:28 |
| \sh | one question more... | 09:28 |
| jani | people can start downloading now :) | 09:28 |
| dholbach | doko: we seem to want to start earlier | 09:28 |
| \sh | how accurate must the source compile? warnings ok? | 09:28 |
| ogra | jani, sure... | 09:28 |
| siretart | dholbach: I guess after tuesday, there will be tons of questions ;) | 09:28 |
| dholbach | siretart: sure :-) | 09:28 |
| dholbach | \sh: same rules as always apply :-) | 09:29 |
| === chmj having ubuntu withdrawal symptoms | ||
| \sh | dholbach: so...it has to work only ;) | 09:29 |
| doko | test packages at: deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/GCC-4.0/i386 ./ | 09:29 |
| doko | dholbach: we have to freeze the archive first | 09:29 |
| ajmitch_ | chmj: you're away from you ubuntu box? | 09:29 |
| jani | is ubuntu bugzilla controllable from mail? | 09:30 |
| === ajmitch_ will have to queue his other packages to upload until it's unforzen | ||
| chmj | ajmitch_, I'm on do$e XP :-( | 09:30 |
| ajmitch_ | ouch :( | 09:30 |
| ogra | doko, but nothing stops people to pull down their favorites already ;) | 09:30 |
| dholbach | doko: test packages? | 09:30 |
| doko | no, but no upload yet ... | 09:30 |
| chmj | doko, gcc-4.0 test packages ? | 09:30 |
| doko | dholbach: to make 4.0 the default | 09:30 |
| Nafallo | ogra: my cronjobs are running ;-) | 09:30 |
| dholbach | alright | 09:31 |
| \sh | i should delete my 80gig hd on my rootserver...and prepare a breezy chroot ;) | 09:31 |
| Nafallo | ogra: hmm, don't take it as I volunteer to do all the work myself though :-P | 09:31 |
| sladen | doko: surely breezy is breakable | 09:31 |
| sladen | doko: eg. dont' have to freeze | 09:31 |
| ogra | Nafallo, oh, no ?? | 09:31 |
| === ajmitch_ will start downloading now, a few packages might be here by next week :) | ||
| ogra | Nafallo, i thought so.. | 09:32 |
| ogra | :) | 09:32 |
| \sh | ajmitch_: 2400baud? ;) | 09:32 |
| ogra | \sh, .nz | 09:32 |
| ajmitch_ | \sh: almost | 09:32 |
| doko | sladen: we'll freeze all _applications_ depending on any libstdc++ dependent library | 09:32 |
| Nafallo | :-) | 09:32 |
| \sh | ajmitch_: oh sh***** | 09:32 |
| dholbach | alright... if nobody complains, we can close this meeting, ok? | 09:33 |
| ogra | yep | 09:33 |
| Nafallo | yep | 09:33 |
| \sh | aye | 09:33 |
| minghua | yes | 09:33 |
| \sh | #ubutntu-transition? | 09:33 |
| === ajmitch_ wants to go back to sleep :) | ||
| === ogra looks forward to have a 30min break before his next meeting | ||
| Nafallo | ajmitch_: *s* | 09:33 |
| siretart | \sh: good idea! | 09:33 |
| ajmitch_ | \sh: not *another* channel! | 09:33 |
| dholbach | thanks everyone, i look forward to the UniverseCxxFixing! :-) | 09:33 |
| === ogra collects is coffeepot, milk sugar and the cups | ||
| dholbach | \sh: #ubuntu-toolchain | 09:34 |
| \sh | dholbach: sorry..yeah :) | 09:34 |
| minghua | doko: Now I've read the CxxLibraryList page, so if I'm sure a binary package only contains loadable module, no name changes are necessary, correct? | 09:34 |
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| doko | minghua: yes, please add a comment ("loadable module only") to the list, I'll remove it then | 09:35 |
| jani | ogra, is there a next meeting in 30 minutes? | 09:35 |
| ogra | jani, for me, yes | 09:36 |
| minghua | doko: got it, thanks | 09:36 |
| jani | ogra, ok I though on #u-m | 09:36 |
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| Nafallo | what was that deb URL doko had again? ;-) | 09:37 |
| dholbach | <doko> test packages at: deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/GCC-4.0/i386 ./ | 09:38 |
| Nafallo | ahha, only i386. thanx anyway :-P. | 09:38 |
| doko | Nafallo: be patient ... | 09:39 |
| chmj | heh | 09:39 |
| Nafallo | doko: oki :-) | 09:39 |
| chmj | night all | 09:44 |
| dholbach | bye chmj, sleep tight | 09:44 |
| chmj | :-) | 09:45 |
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| koke | brb | 09:49 |
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| Amaranth | doh, i missed another one | 10:08 |
| crimsun | oh don't worry, plenty of meetings to go around | 10:08 |
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| mdz | seems to be unused at the moment | 10:10 |
| seb128 | right | 10:10 |
| kiko | okay | 10:10 |
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| dholbach | ok | 10:10 |
| kiko | should we poke luis in? | 10:10 |
| ogra | mdz, yep, we just finished :) | 10:10 |
| kiko | ogra, how familiar are you with bugzilla? | 10:10 |
| kiko | and bug triage in general? | 10:10 |
| ogra | kiko, i use it regulary | 10:10 |
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| kiko | neat | 10:10 |
| dholbach | me too | 10:11 |
| kiko | cool | 10:11 |
| jvw | (has this meeting an agenda?) | 10:11 |
| ogra | kiko, i'm capable to track bugs... and to fix thm i guess | 10:11 |
| kiko | essentially, we'd like to start a community QA process on our bugzilla | 10:11 |
| ogra | bugzilla ? or malone ? | 10:11 |
| kiko | there are a couple of problems we are facing | 10:11 |
| kiko | bugzilla for now. | 10:11 |
| mdz | jvw: <kiko> essentially, we'd like to start a community QA process on our bugzilla | 10:11 |
| ogra | oh | 10:11 |
| kiko | this is short-term stuff | 10:11 |
| ogra | ok | 10:12 |
| mdz | the idea is to involve a much larger group of people in helping out with bugs | 10:12 |
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| ogra | as the MOTU | 10:12 |
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| kiko | first, UNCONFIRMED reports are going upwards (since we introduced them a while back) | 10:13 |
| kiko | https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/report.cgi?x_axis_field=bug_status&y_axis_field=product&z_axis_field=&query_format=report-table&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Ubuntu&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&resolution=DUPLICATE&resolution=---&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1 | 10:13 |
| kiko | =&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= | 10:13 |
| kiko | darn. | 10:13 |
| kiko | one sec. | 10:13 |
| kiko | anyway, as I was saying, we'd like to get more people involved in triaging bugs, with the goal of: | 10:13 |
| kiko | - reducing the number of UNCONFIRMED (marking stuff as resolved, upstream, needinfo, etc) | 10:14 |
| kiko | - identifying low-hanging fruit as good community contributions | 10:14 |
| dholbach | kiko: your link would be http://tinyurl.com/da494 if you wanted us to have a look | 10:14 |
| kiko | - weeding out the tough issues and bringing them to the lead developer's attentions when necessary | 10:15 |
| kiko | thanks | 10:15 |
| jvw | (it's password-protected :( ) | 10:15 |
| mdz | it's clear from a report on resolution that a huge number of the bugs that we receive don't actually require any developer action | 10:15 |
| dholbach | jvw: you have to log in | 10:15 |
| ogra | kiko, so like a first, second and third level suppport... | 10:15 |
| ogra | staging... | 10:16 |
| kiko | ogra, well, to start off with, community first-level, us second-level. but yes. | 10:16 |
| mdz | of 7397 resolved bugs, only 3621 were resolved FIXED. most of the rest ended up being INVALID, NOTABUG, NOTWARTY and WORKSFORME | 10:16 |
| dholbach | i like the LOWHANGINGFRUIT idea | 10:16 |
| dholbach | and UNIVERSE :-) | 10:16 |
| kiko | dholbach, I do too, just don't ask me to add a status for it :) | 10:16 |
| mdz | yes, and UNIVERSE | 10:16 |
| mdz | so if we can get the community involved in walking over the UNCONFIRMED bugs | 10:16 |
| kiko | mdz, dholbach: we can probably use keywords there. | 10:16 |
| seb128 | 3944 bugs, how come than we have #10000 ? | 10:16 |
| mdz | and clearing away the chaff | 10:16 |
| mdz | then the development team can focus on real bugs | 10:16 |
| kiko | right. | 10:16 |
| mdz | which should move to NEW | 10:16 |
| kiko | mdz, you got mail, did you see that? | 10:17 |
| dholbach | i want to start a GNOME team with seb128 and have bug triaging in the manifest | 10:17 |
| mdz | kiko: no, no mail yet | 10:17 |
| kiko | mdz, ogra: so my proposal is that we start by doing weekly bugdays on #ubuntu and #ubuntu-devel | 10:17 |
| seb128 | and we need a mailing list for the bugs | 10:17 |
| kiko | mdz, May 11 16:58:35 anthem sm-mta[26967] : j4BJwQxn026965: to=<mdz@canonical.com>, ctladdr=<kiko@async.com.br> (5107/1004), delay=00:00:08, xdelay=00:00:08, mailer=relay, pri=120323, relay=frodo.hserus.net. [204.74.68.40] , dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (OK id=1DVxLl-000EMv-HR) | 10:17 |
| ogra | kiko, sounds great | 10:17 |
| dholbach | seb128: exactly, like ubuntu-gnome-bugs@ | 10:17 |
| kiko | a bugday is a publicized event that invites community people to trawl through bugzilla | 10:18 |
| mdz | kiko: Subject: ? | 10:18 |
| ogra | like louis does them | 10:18 |
| kiko | ogra, dholbach: we can give away selected merchandise every week to the top resolver. | 10:18 |
| === seb128 wants merchandises :p | ||
| ogra | yay, thats great | 10:18 |
| dholbach | sounds awesome | 10:19 |
| luis_ | probably top /new/ resolver | 10:19 |
| seb128 | :( | 10:19 |
| mdz | luis_: you mean UNCONFIRMED, right? | 10:19 |
| luis_ | you'll get some addictive types who will close hundreds every week :) | 10:19 |
| kiko | luis_, well, the criteria would need to be specified better. this is my proposal. | 10:19 |
| luis_ | mdz: I mean, in terms of giving out goodies, you'd want to make sure it doesn't go to the same guy every week | 10:19 |
| ogra | seb128, find some straw MOTUs for that ;) | 10:19 |
| mdz | luis_: oh | 10:19 |
| seb128 | luis_: don't look at me while saying that :) | 10:19 |
| luis_ | sure, I'm just nitpicking, sorry, I'll go back to lurking- you guys seem to so far be saying things very similar to what I'd be saying :) | 10:19 |
| mdz | luis_: if someone wanst to consistently work hard on bugs, shouldn't we encourage that? | 10:20 |
| luis_ | mdz: oh, you should | 10:20 |
| kiko | we should | 10:20 |
| dholbach | i think we shouldnt focus on the merchandise :-) | 10:20 |
| luis_ | right | 10:20 |
| luis_ | don't rathole, I can email you my more detailed rationale later | 10:20 |
| luis_ | s/don't/we shouldn't/ | 10:20 |
| Amaranth | giving rewards is the _worst_ thing you can do | 10:20 |
| ogra | dholbach, we should, its encouraging | 10:20 |
| dholbach | #ubuntu-love started as such a project, but is horribly unmaintained | 10:21 |
| mdz | oh wow, my bogofilter is all out of whack | 10:21 |
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| ogra | fix this bug to get a t-shirt | 10:21 |
| dholbach | ogra: not in the meeting atm | 10:21 |
| Amaranth | you'll get lots of people to try a little or try once but if they don't win they won't do it again | 10:21 |
| dholbach | i like the idea though | 10:21 |
| seb128 | we need a http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html like | 10:21 |
| \sh | well...after dealing with gentoos bug-wranglers, it sounds really great to encourage community work. but who will check the results? | 10:21 |
| Amaranth | and if they do win they'll want another reward to do it again | 10:21 |
| kiko | Amaranth, that's not my experience. | 10:21 |
| dholbach | seb128: looks great | 10:22 |
| ogra | \sh, if we have 1st 2nd and 3rd level, that would be the next higher level who has to check | 10:22 |
| seb128 | dholbach: I like this stuff, and that's sane emulation :) | 10:22 |
| kiko | mdz, something like "no more mr. nice guy" | 10:22 |
| === Amaranth spots seb128 as #2 bug reporter | ||
| Amaranth | *cough* | 10:23 |
| dholbach | do we want to use UbuntuLove for all this? | 10:23 |
| \sh | ogra: so you mean, 1st level (the lowest community level) will resolve a bug (or he thinks he does), 2nd level check the patch or workaround, and 3rd level will approve? | 10:23 |
| kiko | ubuntuLove? | 10:23 |
| seb128 | dholbach: I don't think so | 10:23 |
| dholbach | the idea behind it was similar to GnomeLove | 10:23 |
| ogra | \sh, nope, in this case 2nd should approve too | 10:23 |
| dholbach | mailing lists, irc channel and gnome-love-days to gather all the willing folks together | 10:24 |
| ogra | \sh, keep away as much as you can from 1st | 10:24 |
| seb128 | dholbach: if we have people to handle both event, I would keep separete ones | 10:24 |
| dholbach | the problem is: we have no people | 10:24 |
| ogra | \sh, at least that was my directive at ish GmbH in the testbed, worked quite well | 10:24 |
| dholbach | #ubuntu-love is in lurking mode and there was only one day yet | 10:25 |
| kiko | ogra, dholbach: so plan of action would be: 0) accept the task of running these bugdays a) decide on weekly bugday b) write up the announcement c) decide where to post the announcement d) decide on criteria/if for prizes | 10:25 |
| kiko | perhaps also decide what sort of guidance we want to give people | 10:25 |
| kiko | basically | 10:25 |
| ogra | kiko, ok, no problem | 10:25 |
| kiko | we want newbies to look at unconfirmed | 10:25 |
| kiko | get a little bugbot IRC bot | 10:25 |
| \sh | ogra: well...u see right now, that @NOC ;) it is not working..2nd level has to deal with 1st level support, just because the tools are not ready :( | 10:25 |
| seb128 | dunno if that's the same topic, be we need some mailing list for bug specific to teams (gnome-bugs, xfce-bugs, ...) | 10:25 |
| ogra | \sh, i talked about the depatment i led ;) not the NOC | 10:26 |
| kiko | seb128, it's not. | 10:26 |
| \sh | ogra: i'm talking about the real world ,-) | 10:26 |
| seb128 | kiko: k | 10:26 |
| kiko | ogra, when do you want to do them? | 10:26 |
| ogra | \sh, its a thing of the rikght organization | 10:26 |
| \sh | ogra: lets find a solution for ubuntu and forget about ish ;) | 10:26 |
| dholbach | weekly sounds good to me | 10:27 |
| kiko | dholbach, ogra: on what day? | 10:27 |
| dholbach | although we have to have people around which will guide them | 10:27 |
| dholbach | s/although// | 10:27 |
| kiko | yeah. | 10:27 |
| ogra | kiko, hmm... a fixed date in the week... dunno, i'll check at #ubuntu-motu to make sure to have some 2nd level people around | 10:27 |
| \sh | saturday to sunday night ;) always good | 10:27 |
| kiko | not a weekday? | 10:27 |
| ogra | \sh, weekdays please | 10:27 |
| dholbach | we want to have full-timezone-coverage :-) | 10:28 |
| === ogra tends to wednesday... | ||
| dholbach | fine with me | 10:28 |
| ogra | a bugday should be 24h ;) | 10:28 |
| kiko | full timezone coverage is kinda crazy for the organizers. | 10:28 |
| dholbach | ogra: sissy :-) | 10:28 |
| seb128 | weekday? hum... | 10:28 |
| kiko | I don't think ogra and dholbach can manage the 24h | 10:28 |
| \sh | and this is another matter ;) | 10:28 |
| kiko | is there anyone in .au to cover for you guys? | 10:28 |
| seb128 | not easy to get people doing bug triage during their working time | 10:28 |
| dholbach | kiko: MOTUs are in all the timezones :-) | 10:29 |
| dholbach | .nz | 10:29 |
| ogra | kiko, .nz | 10:29 |
| kiko | who would that be? | 10:29 |
| dholbach | ajmitch | 10:29 |
| ogra | ajmitch | 10:29 |
| kiko | does he know bugzilla? | 10:29 |
| ogra | i think so | 10:29 |
| kiko | okay | 10:29 |
| dholbach | ah... he went to bed :-) | 10:29 |
| ogra | yep | 10:29 |
| kiko | ogra, dholbach: can you ping motu people, decide on a day and get back to me before friday so we can book a meeting to resolve the remaining issues? | 10:29 |
| ogra | to many meetings today :) | 10:30 |
| dholbach | kiko: absolutely | 10:30 |
| kiko | this meeting would discuss specifics | 10:30 |
| ogra | kiko, sure | 10:30 |
| \sh | did u already established teams for the diff. projects? | 10:30 |
| kiko | \sh? | 10:30 |
| dholbach | \sh: not yet, it will be a long-term goal | 10:30 |
| dholbach | TEAMS! :-) | 10:30 |
| ogra | \sh, not more then we already have | 10:30 |
| dholbach | and those consist of 1-3 people each :-) | 10:30 |
| ogra | \sh, first we need ppl | 10:31 |
| \sh | well, i don't know if you're familiar with gentoo herds | 10:31 |
| ogra | \sh, GO RECRUITING MAN !! | 10:31 |
| \sh | ogra: let me explain please | 10:31 |
| dholbach | \sh: fire away | 10:31 |
| ogra | \sh, yay | 10:31 |
| ogra | go on | 10:31 |
| kiko | ogra, dholbach, mdz, seb128: any other thoughts? | 10:31 |
| kiko | otherwise we can move on and I'll wait for your feedback | 10:31 |
| \sh | ok gentoo is organized this way: bug is coming in...there is a group of "bug-wranglers" who will move the bugs to the special group (aka herd) lets say for gnome or kde | 10:31 |
| ogra | kiko, not yet, sounds fine so far | 10:31 |
| kiko | okay. | 10:32 |
| \sh | so...every project like kde, gnome, ubuntuserver etc. pp. are teams and have to work on those bugs | 10:32 |
| ogra | kiko, thats a thing with a internal evolution anyway, you cant spec out everything here | 10:32 |
| \sh | problem is, as it states out here, the recruitement | 10:32 |
| mdz | kiko: no, but my attention is divided | 10:33 |
| ogra | \sh, correct | 10:33 |
| seb128 | \sh: the group is not an issue, every package has a QA contact | 10:33 |
| \sh | working ppl are missing and it's hard to cover this | 10:33 |
| ogra | \sh, so we currently have to care for everything, like we do anyway... | 10:33 |
| \sh | seb128: thats right, but most of the time it's individual | 10:33 |
| dholbach | kiko: i think you can move on | 10:34 |
| ogra | \sh, but we already have a team.... its just not divided yet...the more people we have the more it will spilt up... | 10:34 |
| seb128 | \sh: that doesn't matter, you can set the QA to a mailing list | 10:35 |
| ogra | but facing reality, the team thing is a longterm shot | 10:35 |
| kiko | thanks | 10:35 |
| \sh | seb128: this we should do :) | 10:35 |
| ogra | kiko, thanks for the meeting :) | 10:35 |
| seb128 | \sh: that was I was saying before and that's what is planned | 10:35 |
| kiko | thanks to you guys | 10:35 |
| kiko | ping me till friday | 10:35 |
| seb128 | thank you kiko | 10:35 |
| dholbach | thanks kiko | 10:35 |
| dholbach | will do | 10:35 |
| kiko | enjoy | 10:35 |
| === kiko [~kiko@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Left] | ||
| dholbach | :-) | 10:35 |
| \sh | well...and if you have the teams ready, and you have the people..the next problem will be the fluctuation of those people. | 10:36 |
| === mdz [~mdz@ca-studio-bsr1o-251.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Client] | ||
| \sh | this was the result at gentoo :( | 10:36 |
| ogra | \sh, we'll handle it, dont worry | 10:36 |
| dholbach | the nice atmosphere will hopefully keep people | 10:37 |
| luis_ | the fluctuation you handle by just recruiting regularly | 10:37 |
| luis_ | and by counting on the super-volunteers | 10:37 |
| ogra | yeah | 10:37 |
| luis_ | 90 of 100 who show will never return | 10:37 |
| zul | there is always fluctuation in open source projects | 10:37 |
| luis_ | of the remaining ten, only 1 or 2 will return for more than a handful of times | 10:37 |
| luis_ | <shrug> | 10:37 |
| luis_ | doesn't matter | 10:37 |
| luis_ | just find a new 100 :) | 10:37 |
| seb128 | "just" | 10:37 |
| ogra | luis_, i think its just a matter of being loud enough :) | 10:37 |
| zul | or obsessive developer | 10:37 |
| luis_ | seb128: I did it for years, it isn't that hard ;) | 10:38 |
| seb128 | he he | 10:38 |
| luis_ | (though, granted, it does need someone with patience/persistence... I've slacked in the past year or two :/ | 10:38 |
| ogra | luis_, you dnot do it anymore ? | 10:38 |
| \sh | well...for ubuntu the situation is quite different | 10:38 |
| luis_ | ogra: no, not really, I've just been too busy with my job and stuff | 10:38 |
| \sh | on one hand, you have a company behind you, who could hire ppl on a contract basis | 10:39 |
| luis_ | I might restart them for gnome, dunno | 10:39 |
| ogra | luis_, oh, i thought that was covered in your job too | 10:39 |
| \sh | on the other hand u need the "outsiders", the community to do most of the stuff ;) | 10:39 |
| luis_ | ogra: well, not towards the end, no :/ | 10:39 |
| luis_ | ogra: I was 'purely' a manager towards the end of my novell career | 10:39 |
| ogra | luis_, ah, yes, the end... | 10:39 |
| seb128 | dholbach: http://tinyurl.com/9297d | 10:39 |
| \sh | luis_: before or after suse? | 10:39 |
| luis_ | \sh: hrm, started before suse, really | 10:40 |
| luis_ | with the XD2 push, I guess... I mean, i still did mostly QA for xd2, but no community QA, since it wasn't a released product | 10:40 |
| ogra | luis_, i know the feeling very good... ask \sh, we were colleagues.. i needed to go to not take a sling... | 10:40 |
| luis_ | hehe | 10:40 |
| dholbach | seb128: wow | 10:40 |
| \sh | xd? ximian? | 10:40 |
| luis_ | yes | 10:40 |
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| luis_ | seb128: oh, nice | 10:41 |
| === luis_ looks forward to getting 2.20 at b.g.o, by way of bkor :) | ||
| \sh | ogra: well...I'll have one more year, then I#m leaving this company ;) | 10:41 |
| luis_ | \sh: where are you now? | 10:41 |
| \sh | ogra: after all, better then to work for lycos ;) | 10:41 |
| ogra | \sh, if they didnt cannibalize themselves then :) | 10:42 |
| \sh | luis_: I'm working at ISH GmbH, a german cable tv company... | 10:42 |
| luis_ | ah. | 10:42 |
| dholbach | to which big US company does it belong again? | 10:42 |
| \sh | ogra: peter was really strange towards me... | 10:42 |
| \sh | dholbach: it was callahan | 10:42 |
| \sh | (sp?) | 10:42 |
| ogra | dholbach, it was callahan... | 10:43 |
| \sh | dholbach: now it's a bank consortium, and from summer on it will be IESY ;) | 10:43 |
| \sh | (lets hope) | 10:43 |
| dholbach | oh nice | 10:43 |
| \sh | ogra: right now, peter comes down to ISP/DTV people and ask them for engineering stuff ;) | 10:44 |
| === ogra wonders why ppl call the ubuntu release names strange.... they should look at german companys... | ||
| ogra | heh | 10:44 |
| \sh | ogra: so i said today to him: why don't u ask klaus? he said: well, it's good to know, that we have people who can do this job, too ;) | 10:45 |
| ogra | heh | 10:45 |
| ogra | \sh, they will offer you my job then ;) | 10:45 |
| \sh | ogra: no :) | 10:45 |
| ogra | sure | 10:45 |
| \sh | ogra: forget it...I'm waiting what will happen...i think klaus will leave (if not now, then later) | 10:46 |
| ogra | he will | 10:46 |
| \sh | i don't really know what's going on upstairs, but all of the engineers (alfred, ingo etc.) are looking for something else...if it's in another department of ish or new companies | 10:47 |
| \sh | anyways OT ;) | 10:47 |
| ogra | i think i started a lot of stuff when i left... | 10:48 |
| ogra | yep true | 10:48 |
| ogra | s/started/unleashed | 10:48 |
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| \sh | hehe..amaranth is right ;) | 10:52 |
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