[08:56] <dholbach> get me a cup as well
[08:56] <dholbach> please :-)
[08:56] <ogra> sure
[08:56] <\sh> hmmm...
[08:57] <Nafallo> hmm, I wonder if I need workrave or something...
[08:57] <dholbach> workrave is gooood
[08:58] <ogra> silly sheep...
[08:58] <jani> hello all
[08:58] <dholbach> hai jani
[08:58] <tritium> doh!  I forgot the doughnuts...
[08:58] <Nafallo> the damn thing was irritating last time I tried ;-)
[08:58] <\sh> who or what is workrave?
[08:58] <ogra> \sh, install it
[08:59] <\sh> ogra: no...the last time you said this, i had to become a ubuntu addict ... ;)
[08:59] <ogra> hehe
[08:59] <\sh> +n
[08:59] <Nafallo> hehe
[08:59] <siretart> ah, you mean the package workrave. :)
[09:00] <ajmitch_> morning
[09:00] <dholbach> hey ajmitch_ 
[09:01] <crimsun> (will be in and out for a few more minutes, talking with boss)
[09:01] <dholbach> crimsun: good luck
[09:02] <jani> guys a question re. BOF specs
[09:02] <jani> what's with those like 
[09:02] <jani> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmaImplementation
[09:02] <ajmitch_> hi chmj 
[09:02] <jani> they link to password protected area on canonical.com
[09:02] <ogra> milk 
[09:02] <ogra> `
[09:02] <ogra> ?
[09:02] <ogra> sugar ?
[09:03] <dholbach> just sugar, thanks
[09:03] <\sh> no milk no sugar just black...
[09:03] <dholbach> jani: those are for the malone/launchpad crew, i'm not sure when it will hit us other guys
[09:03] <jani> dholbach, thanks
[09:03] <chmj> hi ajmitch_
[09:04] <\sh> oh malone...is it working again?
[09:04] <dholbach> ok... can we get cracking?
[09:04] <dholbach> doko just finished briefing us about our next big target: UniverseCxxTransition
[09:05] <dholbach> you will find the rationale for all this well described on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreezyToolchainTransition
[09:05] <dholbach> maybe we should all dive into it for some seconds :-)
[09:06] <dholbach> especially the points after "C++ ABI Transition" are of big importance for all of us
[09:07] <dholbach> in short: as the C++ ABI with g++4.0 will break we will have to recompile ALL c++ packages
[09:07] <dholbach> unfortunately just recompiling wont suffice
[09:07] <ajmitch_> which means finding any package that uses c++
[09:07] <dholbach> doko did a lot of work on this already: CxxLibraryList
[09:07] <ogra> which means we have to do it bottom up...
[09:07] <dholbach> ... will be our first taget
[09:08] <dholbach> the attack plan is something like this:
[09:08] <dholbach> 1) freeze c++ applications from uploads
[09:08] <siretart> ajmitch_: these should be able to identify by looking at the reverse dependencies of libstdc++6
[09:08] <dholbach> 2) fix libraries
[09:08] <dholbach> 3) fix applications using c++ 
[09:08] <ogra> uploads of apps that use c++ will be rejected until the libs are all built
[09:08] <ajmitch_> siretart: sadly, that doesn't find them all
[09:08] <siretart> mostly ;)
[09:09] <ogra> ajmitch_, you dont have to care for the apps yet
[09:09] <dholbach> if you have a look at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList and https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxApplicationList you will see nice lists of them
[09:09] <chmj> that means the libs must be done quickly, I suppose 
[09:09] <ogra> just have a look at every app you upload and drop the upload if its c++
[09:09] <dholbach> we will do a nice and clean job, but the sooner the better
[09:09] <ogra> chmj, right
[09:10] <ajmitch_> shouldn't take much more than a week ;)
[09:10] <dholbach> now: what we will have to do is: applying patches, if stuff doesnt build - gladly debian provided us with loads of patches for that
[09:10] <ogra> we agreed with doko to start on Tuesday with the transition
[09:10] <chmj> UTC ?  
[09:10] <dholbach> and changing the library package name
[09:10] <dholbach> the binary package, not the source package
[09:11] <dholbach> as you can see on BreezyToolchainTransition we will add a "c2"
[09:11] <\sh> i see a lot of qt and kde stuff
[09:11] <ogra> chmj, we didnt agree on a time, heh
[09:11] <ogra> \sh, yep... 
[09:11] <Riddell> \sh: that'll be the C++ :)
[09:11] <dholbach> \sh: this is where Riddell steps in
[09:11] <doko> chmj: we'll post the exact date
[09:12] <\sh> as i heard on kde rumors ;) are telling that gcc 4 is in the moment a "nono"
[09:12] <doko> and time ...
[09:12] <ajmitch_> hello seb
[09:12] <seb128> hi
[09:12] <\sh> Riddell: am i right?
[09:12] <minghua> dholbach: or remove c102 if it exists :-)
[09:12] <ogra> \sh, for 3.4 ?
[09:12] <seb128> meetings marathon? :)
[09:12] <dholbach> minghua: exactly
[09:12] <Riddell> \sh: I'm reliably told that we have a cvs version of gcc which inclues the fix for the KDE problems
[09:12] <\sh> ogra: 4.x is far away ;
[09:12] <dholbach> you can read the "naming conventions" on BreezyToolchainTransition
[09:13] <\sh> Riddell: sounds great
[09:13] <dholbach> we will start on CxxLibraryList and the implementation plan can be found on top
[09:13] <dholbach> 1) mark the package in the list with your name
[09:13] <ogra> if you find omething you dont understand, feel free to ask us, we will point you kindly to doko then ;)
[09:13] <doko> Riddell: the upstream changelogs are included in the gcc binaries as well, so you can search for the bug number
[09:13] <dholbach> 2) look for patches in either bugzilla.ubuntu.com (for main) or on UniverseCxxTransition for universe
[09:13] <doko> ogra sees a flying toaster ...
[09:14] <ogra> heh
[09:14] <ajmitch_> 4.0
[09:14] <dholbach> 3) For each library (for universe as well), create a bug report at http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/, the subject/title must start with [CXX transition]  <source name>
[09:14] <ogra> siretart, 4
[09:14] <siretart> ok
[09:14] <dholbach> and 4) attach the debdiff
[09:14] <ogra> dholbach, do we write that down anywhere =
[09:14] <ogra> ?
[09:15] <dholbach> ogra: what exactly?
[09:15] <ogra> your four points
[09:15] <ajmitch_> ogra: all on the CxxLibraryList  page
[09:15] <ogra> oh
[09:15] <dholbach> yeah
[09:15] <dholbach> we won't have to change the build-depends (generally)
[09:15] <ogra> tables are to fascinating to me....
[09:15] <dholbach> since dpkg-shlideps will work it out for us
[09:16] <dholbach> any questions?
[09:16] <\sh> hmmm...
[09:16] <ajmitch_> when will the compiler be switched?
[09:16] <\sh> missing packages? 
[09:16] <\sh> should we put them directly on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList
[09:16] <ogra> ajmitch_, it already is
[09:16] <\sh> ?
[09:17] <dholbach> ajmitch_: we will start on tuesday
[09:17] <ogra> \sh, sure... and note it in the comment
[09:17] <ajmitch_> ok
[09:17] <chmj> ajmitch_, its switched already 
[09:17] <dholbach> everybody has to be sure to have build-essential of version 11 installed
[09:17] <siretart> are there any special actions planned for java apps?
[09:17] <minghua> dholbach: I have a question about how the CxxLibraryList is made
[09:17] <doko> ajmitch_: and all the details on the BreezyToolchainTransition page
[09:17] <minghua> dholbach: I am looking at my (Debian) package scim, and see that scim-gtk2-immodule is listed
[09:17] <dholbach> minghua: ask doko
[09:18] <ogra> doko ? do we bug you or jbailey for java ?
[09:18] <minghua> dholbach: okay
[09:18] <doko> heh, jbailey should be fine :)
[09:18] <ogra> ok
[09:18] <Nafallo> dholbach: version 11 is to be found where?
[09:18] <dholbach> \sh: what do you mean by missing packages?
[09:18] <chmj> ogra, carefull, he don't like java 
[09:18] <ogra> Nafallo, in breezy ?
[09:18] <\sh> dholbach: like python-sip python-qt and stuff :)
[09:19] <dholbach> Nafallo, ogra: will be uploaded by then
[09:19] <ogra> chmj, _wo_ likes it ? 
[09:19] <minghua> doko: scim-gtk2-immodule only contains gtk2 dynamic loaded module in /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.4.0/immodules, why is it on CxxLibraryList?
[09:19] <ogra> who even
[09:19] <Nafallo> dholbach: oki :-)
[09:19] <chmj> sun, microsystems :p
[09:19] <Nafallo> ogra: 10.1ubuntu1 atm :-)
[09:19] <ogra> heh
[09:19] <doko> Nafallo: wait, I'll upload test packages
[09:19] <dholbach> we also have #ubuntu-java
[09:19] <Nafallo> doko: oki :-)
[09:19] <tritium> dholbach, build-essential=11 installed locally?  Can we not build in a breezy pbuilder chroot on a hoary install?
[09:19] <dholbach> breezy pbuilder will be fine
[09:20] <tritium> ok
[09:20] <dholbach> if you should run into questions and they get answered somewhere... make sure you write it down on the wiki :-)
[09:20] <ajmitch_> sure
[09:20] <\sh> hmm.<mindnote>write howto work with two pbuilder enviroments</mindnote>
[09:20] <ajmitch_> what else would I do with my weekend? ;)
[09:20] <ogra> \sh, why two ?
[09:21] <\sh> ogra: hoary and breezy...I like comparisons :)
[09:21] <Nafallo> \sh: make that three and I'll be happy to :-).
[09:21] <dholbach> we'll have BIG FUN and will do the job admirably :-)
[09:21] <ogra> will we ?
[09:21] <Simira> Nafallo: did you stop hanging out on #d-w?
[09:21] <dholbach> of course!
[09:21] <\sh> Nafallo: three? for what? breezy unstable, ah ok ;)
[09:21] <ogra> YEAH !!
[09:22] <Nafallo> Simira: yea, I've dropped out of debian for the moment ;-).
[09:22] <ogra> lets have FUN !!
[09:22] <Nafallo> \sh: warty-security? :-)
[09:22] <dholbach> the attack plan is clear?
[09:22] <ajmitch_> sure
[09:22] <ajmitch_> ogra: bringing the beer? ;)
[09:22] <chmj> dholbach, seems to be clear enough 
[09:22] <\sh> Nafallo: oh...hmmm...well if i can configure two...i think we can extend it to three easily
[09:22] <ogra> ajmitch_, VB ?
[09:22] <Nafallo> dang. I thought I would sleep this week ;-).
[09:22] <Nafallo> \sh: :-)
[09:23] <\sh> dholbach: ETA?
[09:23] <dholbach> Nafallo: we start next week :-)
[09:23] <ajmitch_> ogra: that'll be fine..
[09:23] <ajmitch_> jeff!
[09:23] <dholbach> it will all depend on us (and the guys doing it in main)
[09:23] <ogra> jbailey, to late
[09:23] <Nafallo> dholbach: oki :-)
[09:23] <ogra> jbailey, you already have the task :)
[09:23] <ajmitch_> dholbach: only a couple of days of work :)
[09:23] <\sh> Riddell: amu will help with the kde stuff?
[09:24] <jbailey> ogra: Joy.  What meeting is this? =)
[09:24] <Riddell> \sh: dunno, better ask him
[09:24] <\sh> ajmitch_: lucky one..u have a blade cluster somewhere? ,-) so we can use it for doing it all on one day ;)
[09:24] <dholbach> as i see it, we have to thank http://bugs.debian.org/from:aj@andaco.de if we make it fast
[09:24] <dholbach> jbailey: c++ transition motu briefing
[09:24] <ajmitch_> \sh: heh, I wish :)
[09:24] <ogra> jbailey, toolchain
[09:24] <\sh> Riddell: ok..i'm on the kde site of the fun :) 
[09:25] <ogra> jbailey, ... which includes java as well....
[09:25] <jbailey> Ah, lovely. =)
[09:25] <Nafallo> dholbach: sure. each person sends one mail right? ;-)
[09:25] <Riddell> \sh: woo
[09:25] <dholbach> Nafallo: :-)
[09:25] <ogra> jbailey, so youre our designated java guru now....
[09:25] <jbailey> Luvly.
[09:25] <\sh> Riddell: have to talk to you anyways :) later ;)
[09:25] <ogra> :)
[09:26] <\sh> ok starting time tuesday cero hundred hours
[09:27] <siretart> :)
[09:27] <dholbach> ok... if there are no more questions (thanks doko for your documentation), this will be the fastest meeting ever
[09:27] <ajmitch_> yay! :)
[09:27] <seb128> ;)
[09:27] <ajmitch_> it's the 4th or 5th meeting this week? :)
[09:27] <\sh> ay
[09:28] <jani> cannot the work begin now and only after g++4.0 is in things compiled?
[09:28] <\sh> one question more...
[09:28] <jani> people can start downloading now :)
[09:28] <dholbach> doko: we seem to want to start earlier
[09:28] <\sh> how accurate must the source compile? warnings ok? 
[09:28] <ogra> jani, sure... 
[09:28] <siretart> dholbach: I guess after tuesday, there will be tons of questions ;)
[09:28] <dholbach> siretart: sure :-)
[09:29] <dholbach> \sh: same rules as always apply :-)
[09:29] <\sh> dholbach: so...it has to work only ;)
[09:29] <doko> test packages at: deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/GCC-4.0/i386 ./
[09:29] <doko> dholbach: we have to freeze the archive first
[09:29] <ajmitch_> chmj: you're away from you ubuntu box?
[09:30] <jani> is ubuntu bugzilla controllable from mail?
[09:30] <chmj> ajmitch_, I'm on do$e XP :-( 
[09:30] <ajmitch_> ouch :(
[09:30] <ogra> doko, but nothing stops people to pull down their favorites already ;)
[09:30] <dholbach> doko: test packages?
[09:30] <doko> no, but no upload yet ...
[09:30] <chmj> doko, gcc-4.0 test packages ?
[09:30] <doko> dholbach: to make 4.0 the default
[09:30] <Nafallo> ogra: my cronjobs are running ;-)
[09:31] <dholbach> alright
[09:31] <\sh> i should delete my 80gig hd on my rootserver...and prepare a breezy chroot ;)
[09:31] <Nafallo> ogra: hmm, don't take it as I volunteer to do all the work myself though :-P
[09:31] <sladen> doko: surely breezy is breakable
[09:31] <sladen> doko: eg. dont' have to freeze
[09:31] <ogra> Nafallo, oh, no ??
[09:32] <ogra> Nafallo, i thought so..
[09:32] <ogra> :)
[09:32] <\sh> ajmitch_: 2400baud? ;)
[09:32] <ogra> \sh, .nz
[09:32] <ajmitch_> \sh: almost
[09:32] <doko> sladen: we'll freeze all _applications_ depending on any libstdc++ dependent library
[09:32] <Nafallo> :-)
[09:32] <\sh> ajmitch_: oh sh*****
[09:33] <dholbach> alright... if nobody complains, we can close this meeting, ok?
[09:33] <ogra> yep
[09:33] <Nafallo> yep
[09:33] <\sh> aye
[09:33] <minghua> yes
[09:33] <\sh> #ubutntu-transition?
[09:33] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: *s*
[09:33] <siretart> \sh: good idea!
[09:33] <ajmitch_> \sh: not *another* channel!
[09:33] <dholbach> thanks everyone, i look forward to the UniverseCxxFixing! :-)
[09:34] <dholbach> \sh: #ubuntu-toolchain
[09:34] <\sh> dholbach: sorry..yeah :)
[09:34] <minghua> doko: Now I've read the CxxLibraryList page, so if I'm sure a binary package only contains loadable module, no name changes are necessary, correct?
[09:35] <doko> minghua: yes, please add a comment ("loadable module only") to the list, I'll remove it then
[09:35] <jani> ogra, is there a next meeting in 30 minutes?
[09:36] <ogra> jani, for me, yes
[09:36] <minghua> doko: got it, thanks
[09:36] <jani> ogra, ok  I though on #u-m
[09:37] <Nafallo> what was that deb URL doko had again? ;-)
 test packages at: deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/GCC-4.0/i386 ./
[09:38] <Nafallo> ahha, only i386. thanx anyway :-P.
[09:39] <doko> Nafallo: be patient ...
[09:39] <chmj> heh
[09:39] <Nafallo> doko: oki :-)
[09:44] <chmj> night all 
[09:44] <dholbach> bye chmj, sleep tight
[09:45] <chmj> :-)
[09:49] <koke> brb
[10:08] <Amaranth> doh, i missed another one
[10:08] <crimsun> oh don't worry, plenty of meetings to go around
[10:10] <mdz> seems to be unused at the moment
[10:10] <seb128> right
[10:10] <kiko> okay
[10:10] <dholbach> ok
[10:10] <kiko> should we poke luis in?
[10:10] <ogra> mdz, yep, we just finished :)
[10:10] <kiko> ogra, how familiar are you with bugzilla?
[10:10] <kiko> and bug triage in general?
[10:10] <ogra> kiko, i use it regulary
[10:10] <kiko> neat
[10:11] <dholbach> me too
[10:11] <kiko> cool
[10:11] <jvw> (has this meeting an agenda?)
[10:11] <ogra> kiko, i'm capable to track bugs... and to fix thm i guess
[10:11] <kiko> essentially, we'd like to start a community QA process on our bugzilla
[10:11] <ogra> bugzilla ? or malone ?
[10:11] <kiko> there are a couple of problems we are facing
[10:11] <kiko> bugzilla for now.
[10:11] <mdz> jvw: <kiko> essentially, we'd like to start a community QA process on our bugzilla
[10:11] <ogra> oh
[10:11] <kiko> this is short-term stuff
[10:12] <ogra> ok
[10:12] <mdz> the idea is to involve a much larger group of people in helping out with bugs
[10:12] <ogra> as the MOTU 
[10:13] <kiko> first, UNCONFIRMED reports are going upwards (since we introduced them a while back)
[10:13] <kiko> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/report.cgi?x_axis_field=bug_status&y_axis_field=product&z_axis_field=&query_format=report-table&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Ubuntu&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&resolution=DUPLICATE&resolution=---&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1
[10:13] <kiko> =&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
[10:13] <kiko> darn.
[10:13] <kiko> one sec.
[10:13] <kiko> anyway, as I was saying, we'd like to get more people involved in triaging bugs, with the goal of:
[10:14] <kiko>   - reducing the number of UNCONFIRMED (marking stuff as resolved, upstream, needinfo, etc)
[10:14] <kiko>   - identifying low-hanging fruit as good community contributions
[10:14] <dholbach> kiko: your link would be   http://tinyurl.com/da494   if you wanted us to have a look
[10:15] <kiko>   - weeding out the tough issues and bringing them to the lead developer's attentions when necessary
[10:15] <kiko> thanks
[10:15] <jvw> (it's password-protected :( )
[10:15] <mdz> it's clear from a report on resolution that a huge number of the bugs that we receive don't actually require any developer action
[10:15] <dholbach> jvw: you have to log in
[10:15] <ogra> kiko, so like a first, second and third level suppport...
[10:16] <ogra> staging...
[10:16] <kiko> ogra, well, to start off with, community first-level, us second-level. but yes.
[10:16] <mdz> of 7397 resolved bugs, only 3621 were resolved FIXED.  most of the rest ended up being INVALID, NOTABUG, NOTWARTY and WORKSFORME
[10:16] <dholbach> i like the  LOWHANGINGFRUIT  idea
[10:16] <dholbach> and UNIVERSE :-)
[10:16] <kiko> dholbach, I do too, just don't ask me to add a status for it :)
[10:16] <mdz> yes, and UNIVERSE
[10:16] <mdz> so if we can get the community involved in walking over the UNCONFIRMED bugs
[10:16] <kiko> mdz, dholbach: we can probably use keywords there.
[10:16] <seb128> 3944 bugs, how come than we have #10000 ?
[10:16] <mdz> and clearing away the chaff
[10:16] <mdz> then the development team can focus on real bugs
[10:16] <kiko> right.
[10:16] <mdz> which should move to NEW
[10:17] <kiko> mdz, you got mail, did you see that?
[10:17] <dholbach> i want to start a GNOME team with seb128 and have bug triaging in the manifest
[10:17] <mdz> kiko: no, no mail yet
[10:17] <kiko> mdz, ogra: so my proposal is that we start by doing weekly bugdays on #ubuntu and #ubuntu-devel
[10:17] <seb128> and we need a mailing list for the bugs
[10:17] <kiko> mdz, May 11 16:58:35 anthem sm-mta[26967] : j4BJwQxn026965: to=<mdz@canonical.com>, ctladdr=<kiko@async.com.br> (5107/1004), delay=00:00:08, xdelay=00:00:08, mailer=relay, pri=120323, relay=frodo.hserus.net. [204.74.68.40] , dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (OK id=1DVxLl-000EMv-HR)
[10:17] <ogra> kiko, sounds great
[10:17] <dholbach> seb128: exactly, like ubuntu-gnome-bugs@
[10:18] <kiko> a bugday is a publicized event that invites community people to trawl through bugzilla
[10:18] <mdz> kiko: Subject: ?
[10:18] <ogra> like louis does them 
[10:18] <kiko> ogra, dholbach: we can give away selected merchandise every week to the top resolver.
[10:18] <ogra> yay, thats great
[10:19] <dholbach> sounds awesome
[10:19] <luis_> probably top /new/ resolver
[10:19] <seb128> :(
[10:19] <mdz> luis_: you mean UNCONFIRMED, right?
[10:19] <luis_> you'll get some addictive types who will close hundreds every week :)
[10:19] <kiko> luis_, well, the criteria would need to be specified better. this is my proposal.
[10:19] <luis_> mdz: I mean, in terms of giving out goodies, you'd want to make sure it doesn't go to the same guy every week
[10:19] <ogra> seb128, find some straw MOTUs for that ;)
[10:19] <mdz> luis_: oh
[10:19] <seb128> luis_: don't look at me while saying that :)
[10:19] <luis_> sure, I'm just nitpicking, sorry, I'll go back to lurking- you guys seem to so far be saying things very similar to what I'd be saying :)
[10:20] <mdz> luis_: if someone wanst to consistently work hard on bugs, shouldn't we encourage that?
[10:20] <luis_> mdz: oh, you should
[10:20] <kiko> we should
[10:20] <dholbach> i think we shouldnt focus on the merchandise :-)
[10:20] <luis_> right
[10:20] <luis_> don't rathole, I can email you my more detailed rationale later
[10:20] <luis_> s/don't/we shouldn't/
[10:20] <Amaranth> giving rewards is the _worst_ thing you can do
[10:20] <ogra> dholbach, we should, its encouraging
[10:21] <dholbach> #ubuntu-love started as such a project, but is horribly unmaintained
[10:21] <mdz> oh wow, my bogofilter is all out of whack
[10:21] <ogra> fix this bug to get a t-shirt
[10:21] <dholbach> ogra: not in the meeting atm
[10:21] <Amaranth> you'll get lots of people to try a little or try once but if they don't win they won't do it again
[10:21] <dholbach> i like the idea though
[10:21] <seb128> we need a http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html like
[10:21] <\sh> well...after dealing with gentoos bug-wranglers, it sounds really great to encourage community work. but who will check the results?
[10:21] <Amaranth> and if they do win they'll want another reward to do it again
[10:21] <kiko> Amaranth, that's not my experience.
[10:22] <dholbach> seb128: looks great
[10:22] <ogra> \sh, if we have 1st 2nd and 3rd level, that would be the next higher level who has to check
[10:22] <seb128> dholbach: I like this stuff, and that's sane emulation :)
[10:22] <kiko> mdz, something like "no more mr. nice guy"
[10:23] <Amaranth> *cough*
[10:23] <dholbach> do we want to use UbuntuLove for all this?
[10:23] <\sh> ogra: so you mean, 1st level (the lowest community level) will resolve a bug (or he thinks he does), 2nd level check the patch or workaround, and 3rd level will approve?
[10:23] <kiko> ubuntuLove?
[10:23] <seb128> dholbach: I don't think so
[10:23] <dholbach> the idea behind it was similar to GnomeLove
[10:23] <ogra> \sh, nope, in this case 2nd should approve too
[10:24] <dholbach> mailing lists, irc channel and gnome-love-days to gather all the willing folks together
[10:24] <ogra> \sh, keep away as much as you can from 1st 
[10:24] <seb128> dholbach: if we have people to handle both event, I would keep separete ones
[10:24] <dholbach> the problem is: we have no people
[10:24] <ogra> \sh, at least that was my directive at ish GmbH in the testbed, worked quite well
[10:25] <dholbach> #ubuntu-love is in lurking mode and there was only one day yet
[10:25] <kiko> ogra, dholbach: so plan of action would be: 0) accept the task of running these bugdays a) decide on weekly bugday b) write up the announcement c) decide where to post the announcement d) decide on criteria/if for prizes 
[10:25] <kiko> perhaps also decide what sort of guidance we want to give people
[10:25] <kiko> basically
[10:25] <ogra> kiko, ok, no problem
[10:25] <kiko> we want newbies to look at unconfirmed
[10:25] <kiko> get a little bugbot IRC bot
[10:25] <\sh> ogra: well...u see right now, that @NOC ;) it is not working..2nd level has to deal with 1st level support, just because the tools are not ready :(
[10:25] <seb128> dunno if that's the same topic, be we need some mailing list for bug specific to teams (gnome-bugs, xfce-bugs, ...)
[10:26] <ogra> \sh, i talked about the depatment i led ;) not the NOC
[10:26] <kiko> seb128, it's not.
[10:26] <\sh> ogra: i'm talking about the real world ,-)
[10:26] <seb128> kiko: k
[10:26] <kiko> ogra, when do you want to do them?
[10:26] <ogra> \sh, its a thing of the rikght organization
[10:26] <\sh> ogra: lets find a solution for ubuntu and forget about ish ;) 
[10:27] <dholbach> weekly sounds good to me
[10:27] <kiko> dholbach, ogra: on what day?
[10:27] <dholbach> although we have to have people around which will guide them
[10:27] <dholbach> s/although//
[10:27] <kiko> yeah.
[10:27] <ogra> kiko, hmm... a fixed date in the week... dunno, i'll check at #ubuntu-motu to make sure to have some 2nd level people around
[10:27] <\sh> saturday to sunday night ;) always good 
[10:27] <kiko> not a weekday?
[10:27] <ogra> \sh, weekdays please
[10:28] <dholbach> we want to have full-timezone-coverage :-)
[10:28] <dholbach> fine with me
[10:28] <ogra> a bugday should be 24h ;)
[10:28] <kiko> full timezone coverage is kinda crazy for the organizers.
[10:28] <dholbach> ogra: sissy :-)
[10:28] <seb128> weekday? hum...
[10:28] <kiko> I don't think ogra and dholbach can manage the 24h
[10:28] <\sh> and this is another matter ;)
[10:28] <kiko> is there anyone in .au to cover for you guys?
[10:28] <seb128> not easy to get people doing bug triage during their working time
[10:29] <dholbach> kiko: MOTUs are in all the timezones :-)
[10:29] <dholbach> .nz
[10:29] <ogra> kiko, .nz
[10:29] <kiko> who would that be?
[10:29] <dholbach> ajmitch
[10:29] <ogra> ajmitch
[10:29] <kiko> does he know bugzilla?
[10:29] <ogra> i think so
[10:29] <kiko> okay
[10:29] <dholbach> ah... he went to bed :-)
[10:29] <ogra> yep
[10:29] <kiko> ogra, dholbach: can you ping motu people, decide on a day and get back to me before friday so we can book a meeting to resolve the remaining issues?
[10:30] <ogra> to many meetings today :)
[10:30] <dholbach> kiko: absolutely
[10:30] <kiko> this meeting would discuss specifics
[10:30] <ogra> kiko, sure
[10:30] <\sh> did u already established teams for the diff. projects?
[10:30] <kiko> \sh?
[10:30] <dholbach> \sh: not yet, it will be a long-term goal
[10:30] <dholbach> TEAMS! :-)
[10:30] <ogra> \sh, not more then we already have
[10:30] <dholbach> and those consist of 1-3 people each :-)
[10:31] <ogra> \sh, first we need ppl
[10:31] <\sh> well, i don't know if you're familiar with gentoo herds 
[10:31] <ogra> \sh, GO RECRUITING MAN !!
[10:31] <\sh> ogra: let me explain please
[10:31] <dholbach> \sh: fire away
[10:31] <ogra> \sh, yay
[10:31] <ogra> go on
[10:31] <kiko> ogra, dholbach, mdz, seb128: any other thoughts?
[10:31] <kiko> otherwise we can move on and I'll wait for your feedback
[10:31] <\sh> ok gentoo is organized this way: bug is coming in...there is a group of "bug-wranglers" who will move the bugs to the special group (aka herd) lets say for gnome or kde
[10:31] <ogra> kiko, not yet, sounds fine so far
[10:32] <kiko> okay.
[10:32] <\sh> so...every project like kde, gnome, ubuntuserver etc. pp. are teams and have to work on those bugs
[10:32] <ogra> kiko, thats a thing with a internal evolution anyway, you cant spec out everything here
[10:32] <\sh> problem is, as it states out here, the recruitement
[10:33] <mdz> kiko: no, but my attention is divided
[10:33] <ogra> \sh, correct
[10:33] <seb128> \sh: the group is not an issue, every package has a QA contact
[10:33] <\sh> working ppl are missing and it's hard to cover this
[10:33] <ogra> \sh, so we currently have to care for everything, like we do anyway...
[10:33] <\sh> seb128: thats right, but most of the time it's individual
[10:34] <dholbach> kiko: i think you can move on
[10:34] <ogra> \sh, but we already have a team.... its just not divided yet...the more people we have the more it will spilt up...
[10:35] <seb128> \sh: that doesn't matter, you can set the QA to a mailing list
[10:35] <ogra> but facing reality, the team thing is a longterm shot
[10:35] <kiko> thanks
[10:35] <\sh> seb128: this we should do :)
[10:35] <ogra> kiko, thanks for the meeting :)
[10:35] <seb128> \sh: that was I was saying before and that's what is planned
[10:35] <kiko> thanks to you guys
[10:35] <kiko> ping me till friday
[10:35] <seb128> thank you kiko 
[10:35] <dholbach> thanks kiko
[10:35] <dholbach> will do
[10:35] <kiko> enjoy
[10:35] <dholbach> :-)
[10:36] <\sh> well...and if you have the teams ready, and you have the people..the next problem will be the fluctuation of those people.
[10:36] <\sh> this was the result at gentoo :(
[10:36] <ogra> \sh, we'll handle it, dont worry
[10:37] <dholbach> the nice atmosphere will hopefully keep people
[10:37] <luis_> the fluctuation you handle by just recruiting regularly
[10:37] <luis_> and by counting on the super-volunteers
[10:37] <ogra> yeah
[10:37] <luis_> 90 of 100 who show will never return
[10:37] <zul> there is always fluctuation in open source projects
[10:37] <luis_> of the remaining ten, only 1 or 2 will return for more than a handful of times

[10:37] <luis_> doesn't matter
[10:37] <luis_> just find a new 100 :)
[10:37] <seb128> "just"
[10:37] <ogra> luis_, i think its just a matter of being loud enough :)
[10:37] <zul> or obsessive developer
[10:38] <luis_> seb128: I did it for years, it isn't that hard ;)
[10:38] <seb128> he he
[10:38] <luis_> (though, granted, it does need someone with patience/persistence... I've slacked in the past year or two :/
[10:38] <ogra> luis_, you dnot do it anymore ? 
[10:38] <\sh> well...for ubuntu the situation is quite different
[10:38] <luis_> ogra: no, not really, I've just been too busy with my job and stuff
[10:39] <\sh> on one hand, you have a company behind you, who could hire ppl on a contract basis
[10:39] <luis_> I might restart them for gnome, dunno
[10:39] <ogra> luis_, oh, i thought that was covered in your job too
[10:39] <\sh> on the other hand u need the "outsiders", the community to do most of the stuff ;)
[10:39] <luis_> ogra: well, not towards the end, no :/
[10:39] <luis_> ogra: I was 'purely' a manager towards the end of my novell career
[10:39] <ogra> luis_, ah, yes, the end...
[10:39] <seb128> dholbach: http://tinyurl.com/9297d
[10:39] <\sh> luis_: before or after suse?
[10:40] <luis_> \sh: hrm, started before suse, really
[10:40] <luis_> with the XD2 push, I guess... I mean, i still did mostly QA for xd2, but no community QA, since it wasn't a released product
[10:40] <ogra> luis_, i know the feeling very good... ask \sh, we were colleagues.. i needed to go to not take a sling...
[10:40] <luis_> hehe
[10:40] <dholbach> seb128: wow
[10:40] <\sh> xd? ximian?
[10:40] <luis_> yes
[10:41] <luis_> seb128: oh, nice
[10:41] <\sh> ogra: well...I'll have one more year, then I#m leaving this company ;)
[10:41] <luis_> \sh: where are you now?
[10:41] <\sh> ogra: after all, better then to work for lycos ;)
[10:42] <ogra> \sh, if they didnt cannibalize themselves then :)
[10:42] <\sh> luis_: I'm working at ISH GmbH, a german cable tv company...
[10:42] <luis_> ah.
[10:42] <dholbach> to which big US company does it belong again?
[10:42] <\sh> ogra: peter was really strange towards me...
[10:42] <\sh> dholbach: it was callahan
[10:42] <\sh> (sp?)
[10:43] <ogra> dholbach, it was callahan...
[10:43] <\sh> dholbach: now it's a bank consortium, and from summer on it will be IESY ;)
[10:43] <\sh> (lets hope)
[10:43] <dholbach> oh nice
[10:44] <\sh> ogra: right now, peter comes down to ISP/DTV people and ask them for engineering stuff ;)
[10:44] <ogra> heh
[10:45] <\sh> ogra: so i said today to him: why don't u ask klaus? he said: well, it's good to know, that we have people who can do this job, too ;)
[10:45] <ogra> heh
[10:45] <ogra> \sh, they will offer you my job then ;)
[10:45] <\sh> ogra: no :) 
[10:45] <ogra> sure
[10:46] <\sh> ogra: forget it...I'm waiting what will happen...i think klaus will leave (if not now, then later)
[10:46] <ogra> he will
[10:47] <\sh> i don't really know what's going on upstairs, but all of the engineers (alfred, ingo etc.) are looking for something else...if it's in another department of ish or new companies
[10:47] <\sh> anyways OT ;)
[10:48] <ogra> i think i started a lot of stuff when i left...
[10:48] <ogra> yep true
[10:48] <ogra> s/started/unleashed
[10:52] <\sh> hehe..amaranth is right ;)