[07:50] (fabbione/#ubuntu-toolchain) 1 2 3.. test!
[07:50] <fabbione> ok logs to appear on the web within the next hour
[07:51] <jbailey> fabbione: Thanks Fabio!
[07:51] <svenl> hi all.
[07:52] <fabbione> now.. you got the logs... FIX SPARC YOU WANKERS!
[07:52] <fabbione> gcc-3.4 is FTBFS
[07:52] <fabbione> l-k-h is teh SUX!
[07:52] <jbailey> Is that "fix" like how I had my cat "fixed"?
[07:52] <fabbione> i have no idea about your cat....
[07:53] <jbailey> fabbione: In N. America (possibly all of english) to have an animal "fixed" is to have it neutered.
[07:53] <fabbione> no seriously.. if we start the transtion before sparc has even a toolchain i might as well consider dropping the port
[07:53] <fabbione> oh... poor cat
[07:54] <svenl> why does gcc-4.0 depend on libcairo-dev ?
[07:54] <fabbione> anyway i must run to cook dinner
[07:54] <fabbione> cya tomorrow
[08:07] <dholbach> weren't we supposed to start 7 minutes ago? ;-)
[08:07] <ogra> 6 here
[08:07] <Riddell> poke doko 
[08:08] <doko> svenl: libgcj
[08:08] <svenl> doko: oh.
[08:09] <doko> svenl: you can drop it, it's not a hard dependency
[08:09] <svenl> bah, i just installed it.
[08:11] <Riddell> so doko, why have you called us all here?
[08:11] <doko> fabbione: you could just change gcc-defaults to have g77 -> g77-3.3, then g77-3.4 won't be touched.
[08:12] <doko> heh, yes, let's start ...
[08:12] <Riddell> do we have a version of gcc which includes this fix?  http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20973
[08:12] <doko> you are aware of https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreezyToolchainTransition ?
[08:13] <ogra> yep
[08:13] <dholbach> me too, excellent work!
[08:13] <doko> ok, we are converting all the library packages first
[08:14] <dholbach> any specific order? dependency-wise?
[08:14] <doko> for a better view, see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList
[08:15] <doko> dholbach: heh, good question, answer is in the wiki:  Wait until all of your dependencies have been uploaded in c2 versions, and rebuilt on all architectures.
[08:16] <dholbach> so we will rely on dep-wait?
[08:17] <dholbach> or will elmo "freeze" every *c2 package until we are finished?
[08:18] <doko> new lib packages cannot enter the archive, if there's already an 'ubuntu' package.
[08:18] <doko> we will freeze all the application packages ...
[08:19] <doko> Riddell: yes
[08:19] <dholbach> could you explain it with  libtest  libtestc2  and  program  test  which uses those? :-)
[08:19] <Riddell> doko: in the archives now?
[08:20] <dholbach> i didnt quite get what will will happen
[08:20] <doko> Riddell: of course
[08:20] <Riddell> excellent
[08:20] <doko> dholbach: what didn't you get?
[08:20] <ogra> dholbach, all apps that depend on a c++ lib will be rejected if i undestood it right
[08:21] <ogra> until doko pulls the lever
[08:21] <doko> ogra: correct
[08:21] <dholbach> ok, but installing for example  inkscape  won't work in the transition time, because libgtkmm*c2 is available but not libgtkmm*
[08:21] <dholbach> or didnt i understand it yet
[08:22] <ogra> dholbach, yep, gtkmm apps will break for a while...
[08:22] <doko> dholbach: yes, that's correct, as you call it "Schmerz im Hintern"
[08:22] <dholbach> alright
[08:22] <dholbach> the "new" libraries will be built and put in the archive still?
[08:22] <doko> dholbach: and all of KDE will break, that will be fun :-)
[08:22] <ogra> yep
[08:23] <dholbach> alright... sounds good
[08:23] <dholbach> what guidelines can i pass for the packaging
[08:23] <Riddell> "Some of them are handled specifically (mostly KDE)"  doko, what's handled specially about KDE?
[08:25] <doko> some KDE packages are not renamed, even if they contain shared libs. we'll only rename qt and kdelibs
[08:25] <Riddell> doko: why does kdelibs have to be renamed?
[08:25] <Riddell> it depends on qt too
[08:26] <doko> but not every kde package depends on qt
[08:26] <Riddell> I'm yet to find any
[08:26] <doko> Riddell: we discussed that in Sydney ... and found some IIRC
[08:27] <Riddell> not I, amu said he found some, I'll see if he knows which
[08:28] <Riddell> doko: how much is going to be done automatically and how much by hand?
[08:29] <doko> Riddell: the library packages by hand, the application packages automatically. you have to make the call for the KDE packages, which are applications, and which are libraries ...
[08:30] <dholbach> ok, so what guidelines can i pass for the packaging, what do i need to tell the guys explicitly? about 1) the libraries 2) the applications?
[08:30] <dholbach> what is the general attack plan for a MOTU? :-)
[08:31] <doko> dholbach: you should delegate packages to people, all other things should be mentioned in the wiki
[08:32] <dholbach> they will pick
[08:32] <doko> if not, then we should complete the docs ...
[08:32] <dholbach> i'll have to re-read the wiki then some dozen times to make sure i got everything
[08:32] <ogra> doko, will a rebuild and renaming be enough ? 
[08:33] <dholbach> we need to change the build-dependencies
[08:33] <ogra> doko, or do we have to expect odditys
[08:33] <dholbach> and tell them to use a proper patching system
[08:33] <ogra> ?
[08:33] <dholbach> and tighten the build-depends as well
[08:34] <doko> dholbach: yes, the new ones enter the archive immediately
[08:35] <doko> dholbach: no, please NO other changes in these uploads. we will use the bug reports to feed back exactly the transition changes to Debian
[08:35] <Riddell> doko: how do I mark packages as libraries or applications?
[08:35] <doko> ogra: ICEs
[08:36] <ogra> hmm... but thats nothing MOTU could fix... i mean compile issues we have to regard.... extra options, conflicting options, etc
[08:36] <dholbach> doko: ok, need to read the wiki again
[08:36] <dholbach> i seem to not get it yet and as i will need to tell people a couple of times, i want to understand it thoroughly
[08:37] <doko> Riddell: we did talk about it in UDU, didn't we? maybe we should meet again with amu
[08:37] <doko> dholbach: start with one package, and I can review it
[08:37] <ogra> dholbach, dont worry, i think i understand it and i was around during the big transition in debian some time ago....
[08:37] <ogra> so i know what to expect worst .... ;)
[08:38] <dholbach> little dumb dholbach will have to read it again
[08:38] <Riddell> doko: don't think we need to meet again, just that it was amu not me who said there were packages that depended on kdelibs and not qt, I havn't found any
[08:39] <doko> Riddell: in universe as well?
[08:40] <Riddell> doko: dunno, is there an easy way to search?
[08:40] <doko> lamont: how does the hppa toolchain look, or don't you care at the moment?
[08:42] <jbailey> doko: He's waiting on me for glibc love on hppa
[08:42] <jbailey> doko: Should be early next week.  I just can't do that hacking on a single monitor system.  I'm hoping p'haps Sunday evening.
[08:42] <doko> ogra: for ICE's, a MOTU should extract the preprocessed source, add the command line, submit a bug report and put the bug report number in the comment field. then other people can continue
[08:43] <ogra> doko, would you mind to write some lines about how to do that on the wiki....
[08:44] <amu> moin'
[08:45] <doko> ogra: it's just recompiling with -save-temps, compress and send the resultint '.i' or '.ii' file
[08:45] <lamont> doko: what jbailey said
[08:45] <ogra> we have some very inexperienced guys in the MOTU wannabe league, so it sould be as easy as possible to "step in to help out" ;) 
[08:45] <ogra> doko, 
[08:45] <ogra> ok
[08:46] <doko> ogra: it's even ok, if somebody else does this, but we have to know about ...
[08:46] <ogra> yep
[08:47] <ogra> we'll put a column on the wiki table for it...
[08:47] <dholbach> we will keep the c2 suffix only until there's a new soname, right?
[08:47] <doko> jbailey: that should be ok
[08:47] <doko> dholbach: yes
[08:48] <doko> so when do we start? Next Monday is bank holiday in Germany, and maybe somewhere else, so what about Tuesday?
[08:48] <ogra> sounds good
[08:48] <Riddell> amu: do you know which packages depend on kdelibs but not qt?
[08:48] <dholbach> this will mean that universe will start a week later, right?
[08:48] <amu> monday is fine :)
[08:49] <ogra> dholbach, why ? 
[08:49] <ogra> dholbach, anything we have to wait for ?
[08:49] <dholbach> because most universe-c++-libraries will depend on main-crack
[08:49] <amu> Riddell: all gnomepackages ? 
[08:49] <amu> ;)
[08:49] <dholbach> amu: on kdelibs?
[08:50] <doko> dholbach: no, universe at the same time, for those, that don't depend on libs in main
[08:50] <ogra> hmm, i think there is a good bunch essential stuff in universe too...
[08:50] <doko> amu: we talked about the necessity of renaming kdelibs4 ...
[08:51] <chmj> evening 
[08:51] <lamont> fabbione: btw, if you haven't already, please add this channel to the logbot
[08:52] <dholbach> lamont: he did: "<fabbione> now.. you got the logs... FIX SPARC YOU WANKERS!"
[08:52] <lamont> hehe
[08:53] <Riddell> how about not renaming kdelibs4 and anything which is crazy enough to depend on kdelibs4 but not qt we just add a depend on qt
[08:55] <doko> Riddell: doesn't work for existing apps
[08:56] <Riddell> hmm yes
[08:56] <dholbach> ok, now i see it clearer
[08:56] <doko> amu, Riddell: please be careful about that issue, so that we have a solution, which works for Debian as well. A difference here would be a major PITA
[08:56] <Riddell> so amu, where did you find packages that depend on kdelibs and not qt?
[08:58] <amu> Riddell: good question ... at least they if they will not depends against qt kdelibs depend it 
[08:59] <doko> Riddell: you could search all dependencies of packages, which have kdelibs4, but not libqt3-mtc102 (or something like this)
[09:00] <dholbach> ok.. the meetin in #u-meeting will start
[09:00] <dholbach> i well tell the crowd that the KDE solution is still worked on, ok?
[09:01] <Riddell> dholbach: what's happening in #ubuntu-meeting?
[09:01] <dholbach> the briefing for the MOTU crew
[09:01] <ogra> Riddell, you should be there for qt/kde
[09:03] <Riddell> ah kde-i18n* depends on kdelibs but not qt
[09:04] <doko> ogra, dholbach: maybe just discuss the universe topics here as well, or point people here for questions
[09:04] <dholbach> yes
[09:04] <ogra> yep
[09:15] <Riddell> grep-available -Fdepends kdelibs4 --and --not -Fdepends libqt3
[09:15] <Riddell> looks to be quite a few, guess we will have to rename kdelibs4
[09:16] <Riddell> the question is are there other kde libraries which are also depended upon without qt
[09:18] <doko> jbailey: just decided that you will be pestered about java specific things by the motu's
[09:40] <svenl> doko: can i have your tentative gcc ppc64 biarch packages or something ? 
[09:50] <lamont> q
[10:17] <doko> svenl: http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/glibc
[10:18] <doko> svenl: http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/gcc-powerpc
[10:19] <svenl> doko, the gcc will work on ppc32 too ? 
[10:19] <doko> svenl: heh, I never tried on ppc64 ...
[10:21] <svenl> doko: the above gcc packages, they are using the headers from suse as the older ones, or the real thing ?
[10:21] <svenl> doko: and you didn't provide the source packages.
[10:22] <doko> svenl: these are built with jbailey's packages
[10:22] <svenl> ok.
[10:22] <doko> source: apt-get gcc-3.4
[10:22] <doko> and edit debian/rules.defs
[10:22] <svenl> doko: no magic config option, apart from jbaileys ackages installed ? 
[10:22] <svenl> ah, ok.
[10:23] <svenl> doko: i could then try building a biarch gcc-4.0 with those ? 
[10:23] <doko> yes, you can try, sure
[10:24] <svenl> :)
[10:24] <svenl> any chance of it actually working ?
[10:25] <doko> I didn't try yet ... run the testsuite ;-P
[10:26] <svenl> doko: so, by installing all of the above, i should be able to create ppc64 executables, and also to build ppc64 kernels, right ? 
[10:26] <svenl> doko: oh usable are the above on a debian system ?
[10:27] <doko> svenl: I didn't test ... what about if you install them in a chroot? it shouldn't matter for a kernel build
[10:27] <svenl> bah, the packages need a newer version of linux-kernel-headers than the one in breezy.
[10:27] <svenl> doko: well.
[10:27] <svenl> doko: am runnin in a breezy chroot on a hoary powerbook right now.
[10:27] <doko> sven: please ask jbailey about l-k-h
[10:28] <svenl> i found them
[10:29] <svenl> mmm, maybe.
[10:29] <svenl> damn.
[10:29] <svenl> jbailey: please ping me when you come back.
[10:30] <svenl> jbailey: your glibc is forced to use a l-k-h which is older than the one in breezy :/
[10:42] <svenl> ls
[10:42] <svenl> doko: your gcc won do, it is too old for either the glibc currently in breezy or jbailey packages.
[11:03] <jbailey> svenl: Ooh, that might be the one I had the typo in, sorry.
[11:03] <jbailey> doko: The gcc you gave me before for building glibc on ppc64 worked fine for my testcases.
[11:34] <jbailey> lamont: Working on it, still (again).  elmo and I got rt up and running this morning.
[11:34] <lamont> jbailey: cool
[11:49] <jbailey> Wow, ncftp isn't in main.
[11:59] <lamont> jbailey: you really want to support that???
[11:59] <lamont> ISTR vomiting the last time I was hacking on that.