[12:17] <mpt> Burgundavia: Also, from the Bugzilla-mind-trips dept.: Don't report bugs of the form "X should be more like Y"
[12:18] <Burgundavia> mpt, yes, I realised taht after I submitted it
[12:19] <mpt> Instead, "Make X N", where N = {simpler, more consistent, more obvious, more efficient ...}
[12:20] <Burgundavia> I take the advice of a master then
[12:39] <mdke> Burgundavia, still here?
[12:39] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:40] <Burgundavia> mdke, what do you need?
[12:40] <mdke> are you following that thread started by henrik?
[12:40] <Burgundavia> yes, but I haven't responded yet
[12:40] <mdke> any thoughts?
[12:40] <Burgundavia> I like the idea of seperate wikis
[12:40] <mdke> my impression is that he is moving a little fast
[12:40] <Burgundavia> i think he should do
[12:41] <Burgundavia> we have lots of time to sort of the fallout
[12:41] <mdke> hmm
[12:41] <mdke> i thought the idea of using a wiki as a portal had been ruled out
[12:42] <Burgundavia> hmm
[12:42] <mdke> i agree moving fast is good, but if the fallout is gonna be massive, and keeping the various wikis in sync is gonna be a huge task, we need to make sure its gonna work
[12:43] <mpt> Burgundavia: About 600, I think
[12:43] <Burgundavia> mpt, geez
[12:43] <mdke> thats a lot
[12:43] <mdke> mpt, not working?
[12:43] <jdub> mdke: the separate wiki suggestion is more technical-solution-to-social problem mucking around
[12:43] <mdke> morning jdub 
[12:44] <jdub> mdke: splitting wikis is worse than splitting mailing lists
[12:44] <mpt> Not nearly as much as some people
[12:44] <mdke> jdub, sorry i don't get what you mean
[12:44] <mdke> mpt, i mean, is the checkout not working?
[12:44] <Burgundavia> jdub, I like the idea of the acl for some docs
[12:44] <mdke> jdub, what is "technical-solution-to-social problem mucking around"?
[12:44] <mpt> mdke: Yes, it's working fine, I just didn't get it finished last night before I had to go offline
[12:45] <Burgundavia> not being allow to move such important pages as RootSudo is very good
[12:45] <mdke> mpt, ok cool
[12:45] <jdub> Burgundavia: the wiki is a place for collaborative authoring, not "documentation"
[12:45] <Burgundavia> jdub, they we need to be more proactive at moving stuff to static web pages
[12:45] <mdke> jdub, you had better voice your opinion on that thread because it looks like henrik is moving quite quickly with his ideas, unless i've got the wrong end of the stick
[12:45] <mdke> Burgundavia, ++
[12:46] <mdke> Burgundavia, to a certain extent, moving wiki stuff to our docs can be done in the existing system tho
[12:46] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:46] <Burgundavia> well there is to ways to do it:
[12:46] <mdke> its just a question of putting in the time
[12:46] <jdub> mdke: i'm writing a response to that, and a lengthier email about good stuff for the doc team to be doing
[12:46] <Burgundavia> 1. keep the stuff in the wiki, and apply a no-move/delete acl to it
[12:46] <Burgundavia> 2. move it out of the wiki
[12:47] <Burgundavia> that is for short things we have written that we wish to keep on the web
[12:47] <Burgundavia> like RootSudo
[12:47] <mdke> jdub, i'll just sit back and observe, in the meantime the wiki transition can get done anyway, its a separate issue really
[12:47] <mdke> Burgundavia, +
[12:47] <Burgundavia> why don't we transition straight wiki to wiki, and the start talking about fancy crap like acls
[12:47] <mdke> hmm
[12:48] <Burgundavia> becuase the wiki --> wiki transition is going to bring bugs we are going to need to fix
[12:48] <mdke> what do you mean?
[12:48] <mdke> transfer of zwiki to moinmoin?
[12:48] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:48] <mdke> but that will happen anyway
[12:49] <Burgundavia> yes, that is what I am saying
[12:49] <mdke> but the issues that will occur are gonna be separate aren't they?
[12:49] <Burgundavia> lets do the transitition, and then start talking about the new stuff to make our lives easier
[12:49] <mdke> ya
[12:51] <mdke> ok i'm gonna do the washing up and get ready for bed and look forward to jeff's mails
[01:02] <Burgundavia> mdke, see the list
[01:02] <mdke> will do
[01:03] <mdke> good stuff
[01:04] <mdke> i am still boggled by the question: canonical are funding a fantastic translation interface, why not a documentation interface
[01:04] <Burgundavia> no idea
[01:04] <mdke> that is a question for the long term obviously
[01:05] <mdke> maybe we will get an answer during this debate tho
[01:06] <Burgundavia> we already have an answer from jdub, and that is that we don't need it
[01:06] <mdke> launchpad is not only about "we" tho
[01:06] <Burgundavia> I still think we do, but we can postpone the decision
[01:07] <Burgundavia> launchpad is python
[01:07] <Burgundavia> the suggested interface was java
[01:07] <mdke> you misunderstand me i think
[01:07] <jdub> mdke: because translation is ready for that kind of scalability
[01:07] <mdke> i'm not talking really about the current portal debate, more generally
[01:08] <jdub> mdke: and is worth investing in for that scalability :)
[01:08] <mdke> jdub, i see that
[01:08] <Burgundavia> you are talking a doc portal in general
[01:08] <mdke> my knowledge of launchpad is minimal, but isn't it the case that there are no good web interfaces for documentation? on the other hand there are lots of bug interfaces, but that hasn't stopped development of malone
[01:09] <mdke> is malone "needed"?
[01:09] <Burgundavia> malone is meta bug tracker
[01:09] <mdke> no, but its a long term investment
[01:09] <Burgundavia> and bug tracker of bug trackers
[01:09] <Burgundavia> neither is rosetta "need"
[01:09] <jdub> mdke: documentors are quite a different set of people to translators
[01:09] <mdke> jdub, sure, ditto bug reporters
[01:09] <jdub> mdke: translation has come very far, now we can scale it out significantly with a "mum can use it" interface
[01:09] <mdke> *grins*
[01:10] <mdke> i'd like to see my mum use rosetta, but i take your point
[01:10] <Burgundavia> documentation tends to be the forgotten child
[01:10] <jdub> mdke: hey, when it's released...
[01:10] <Burgundavia> launchpad is very very cool
[01:10] <mdke> jdub, yeah just ribbing, i use rosetta
[01:10] <jdub> mdke: malone is a different kettle again; we're aiming for massive upstream/downstream/crossstream collaboration
[01:10] <mdke> jdub, same with rosetta no?
[01:11] <jdub> yes
[01:11] <Burgundavia> a doc portal would need to take into account getting upstreams involved
[01:11] <jdub> but differently
[01:11] <mdke> why not documentation too?
[01:11] <jdub> mdke: because it doesn't have that scale
[01:11] <jdub> "everyone" needs to do translations, "everyone" can report bugs
[01:11] <mdke> in terms of contribution?
[01:12] <mdke> hmm
[01:12] <mdke> interesting
[01:12] <jdub> writing documentation (which is not the most important part of what the doc team should be doing) is very hard, and very hard to scale
[01:12] <Burgundavia> that is why most current docs suck, and are out of date
[01:12] <jdub> but there are ways of making it better, and involving people
[01:12] <mdke> jdub, i guess that's a little bit a matter of opinion, some would say that the more people get involved, the better quality comes out
[01:12] <jdub> and i've got a little faux-timeline for doing it
[01:13] <jdub> mdke: i think that's pure poppycock :-)
[01:13] <Burgundavia> I think the best way is to start with some sort of web stuff, and scale the technology as need
[01:13] <jdub> mdke: more people == cacophony, not clarity :-)
[01:13] <mdke> well its the idea behind a lot of free speech theory right?
[01:13] <Burgundavia> basically to start, you need a readonly, where are the holes, interface
[01:15] <mdke> anyhow
[01:17] <mdke> *grins*
[01:17] <Burgundavia> the best wiki engine out there, bar none
[01:18] <mdke> there is always the "let's use php anyway" idea
[01:18] <mdke> can of worms maybe
[01:18] <Burgundavia> not hosted on canonical servers
[01:18] <mdke> thats my point
[01:19] <Burgundavia> there was talk of hosting the portal off canonical servesr
[01:19] <Burgundavia> which may still be an option
[01:19] <Burgundavia> I would like to explore it
[01:20] <mdke> that's what i am getting at
[01:20] <Burgundavia> that is how we got svn on the servers
[01:20] <mdke> *grins*
[01:20] <Burgundavia> it got setup and hosted offsite
[01:20] <mdke> you'll never get php on in the same way
[01:20] <mdke> but still
[01:20] <Burgundavia> no, but I might be java on
[01:21] <Burgundavia> that didn't make sense
[01:21] <mdke> *laughs*
[01:21] <Burgundavia> but java may be acceptable
[01:21] <mdke> still it would involve a separate wiki
[01:21] <mdke> bit annoying
[01:22] <Burgundavia> not really
[01:22] <jdub> guys, "php" is not the problem
[01:22] <Burgundavia> I think that mediawiki, as an app is pretty security tested
[01:22] <jdub> we've chosen moin
[01:23] <mdke> sure
[01:23] <mdke> for the ubuntu wiki
[01:24] <mdke> jdub, we have helped a lot with the possible transition, and have never questioned the choice
[01:24] <mdke> and we're not doing so now
[01:25] <mdke> but we are just playing around with our ideas for a docteam portal
[01:25] <jdub> docteam doesn't need a 'portal' dude
[01:26] <mdke> you've said that
[01:26] <Burgundavia> jdub, we realise your opinion
[01:26] <mdke> but its a free channel
[01:26] <Burgundavia> and I respect it
[01:26] <mdke> we are just talking
[01:26] <Burgundavia> I just don't completely agree with it
[01:27] <jdub> that's because it looks like a bastion of direction in a directionless project :)
[01:27] <Burgundavia> right
[01:27] <Burgundavia> well, nobody is providing direction until now
[01:27] <mdke> well i think the main attraction is of involving more people
[01:27] <jdub> mdke: right, but it won't
[01:27] <mdke> and removing the massive contribution barrier
[01:27] <jdub> here's why
[01:28] <jdub> - real documentation is hard, having a web way of writing docbook doesn't increase the quality or ability to write documentation
[01:28] <jdub> - adding more people to a project with no direction makes it much harder to go anywhere or get anything done
[01:28] <mdke> jdub, of course it is hard, but there are people around who have the skills and don't have the skills of writing docbook
[01:28] <mdke> xml
[01:29] <jdub> - writing new documentation is a red herring, and not a hugely important part of what the docteam should be doing right now
[01:29] <jdub> mdke: a 'web portal' won't help them anyway
[01:29] <mdke> jdub, go on
[01:29] <jdub> that's the summary of my points
[01:29] <mdke> i mean, why won't it
[01:30] <jdub> because unless the web application is extraordinarily good, and abstracts away the whole "writing docbook" issue, they'll still be writing docbook, they'll still have to know what it is, how it works
[01:30] <jdub> having a web interface doesn't magically make things less complicated
[01:31] <jdub> besides, there is *no point* scaling doc team at the moment
[01:31] <mdke> what does scaling mean?
[01:31] <jdub> making bigger, ie., bringing on more contributors
[01:31] <mdke> ah
[01:32] <mdke> well you would agree that the documentation with Ubuntu is pitiful?
[01:32] <jdub> no
[01:32] <jdub> not at all
[01:32] <jdub> underexposed? yes.
[01:32] <jdub> lacking analysis and integration? yes.
[01:32] <mdke> my opinion on having a look at the local docs in yelp is that it is pitiful
[01:33] <mdke> considering that Ubuntu's emphasis is on being user friendly
[01:33] <jdub> the solution to that is *not* writing new documentation
[01:34] <mdke> ok
[01:35] <mdke> well it is clear that you have a vision of what the solution is, so I will wait for your email before pestering further in here
[01:48] <mdke> right i gtg to bed
[01:48] <mdke> catch you all later
[01:59] <Burgundavia> cya
[02:04] <Burgundavia> salut liz
[02:04] <Liz> kia ora Burgundavia 
[02:04] <Liz> :)
[02:06] <Liz> Burgundavia, did you get unable to authenticate for the new updates on hoary?
[02:07] <Liz> already?..didnt think it was stable enough for that
[02:07] <Liz> im going to have to upgrade again before the next upgrade
[02:11] <Burgundavia> breezy is very not stable
[02:11] <Burgundavia> I just like my latest crack
[03:16] <Liz> ok..gotta go shopping...bbl
[07:26] <jsgotangco> hey hey
[07:46] <froud> morning, African Greetings
[07:49] <jsgotangco> grrr crappy router
[07:49] <jsgotangco> hi
[07:51] <froud> woof
[07:52] <jsgotangco> foo
[07:52] <froud> now what animal goes foo
[07:52] <jsgotangco> froud, you feeling well today?
[07:52] <froud> I always feel well
[07:52] <jsgotangco> i just arrived after attending this useless isms seminar
[07:52] <froud> except when I am sick
[07:52] <froud> isms?
[07:52] <jsgotangco> i dunno if you're familiar with BS 7799
[07:53] <froud> BS 7799
[07:53] <jsgotangco> "Information Security Management System"
[07:53] <froud> Ah business continuity planning:-)
[07:53] <froud> yes I am familiar
[07:54] <froud> caves your head in
[07:54] <jsgotangco> you think its worth it?
[07:54] <froud> The concept, yes
[07:54] <froud> if you dont have it you should
[07:55] <froud> I say that if you are in a large organization
[07:55] <jsgotangco> oh yeah if you're large indeed
[07:55] <froud> security management is key to business continuity
[07:55] <froud> For a small business, it's overkill
[07:56] <froud> so cut down to just what you need
[07:57] <jsgotangco> i dont get it nobody reacted to my email (not that its bad) i guess its too technical?
[07:57] <froud> which email
[07:57] <froud> Observations in packaged Ubuntu Documentation (Hoary)
[07:57] <jsgotangco> the yelp/scrollkeeper thing
[07:58] <froud> I explained my position to you yesterday morning
[07:58] <jsgotangco> oh right
[07:58] <jsgotangco> i forgot
[07:59] <froud> jsgotangco: I don't know why people don't just take my idea of scrapping yelp for our docs
[08:00] <froud> we dont need yelp/scrollkeeper to deliver help
[08:00] <jsgotangco> its taboo for gnome! heh
[08:00] <froud> to much religion dude
[08:00] <froud> not enough lateral thinking
[08:00] <jsgotangco> i don't mind the yelp/scrollkeeper thing but it really needs to be cleaned
[08:00] <froud> amazes me how in the box people think
[08:01] <froud> jsgotangco: yelp cant support a large number of requirements
[08:01] <froud> glossterms would be a start
[08:01] <froud> bibliography refs another
[08:02] <jsgotangco> yes bibliography
[08:02] <froud> XInclude/XPointer the next
[08:02] <froud> customization
[08:02] <froud> search
[08:02] <jsgotangco> isnt xpointer very basic to be missed
[08:02] <froud> not if you have xi:fallback
[08:03] <froud> and if we want to use vendor drops, it will become a must
[08:08] <froud> jsgotangco: but you know, I am just doing my thing
[08:09] <jsgotangco> its understandable but in my opinion its not so bad
[08:10] <froud> actually I was thinking, that perhaps I should not discuss these things, just go ahead and do it and then say to people here it is, like it or love it
[08:10] <jsgotangco> some people believe we've done a good job
[08:10] <froud> seems when we discuss stuff that people get hooked on the technical stuff and not writing
[08:10] <jsgotangco> so like i said its not so bad after all
[08:11] <jsgotangco> despte the tools (or the lack of it) that we have
[08:11] <froud> no, not bad at all
[08:11] <froud> but many of us know it can be better
[08:12] <froud> but each time we discuss matters, we get bogged down
[08:12] <jsgotangco> heh i remember a few months before hoary
[08:12] <jsgotangco> we're all busy and stuff heh
[08:12] <froud> so I figure, just do it and then show it
[08:12] <froud> yeah
[08:13] <froud> anyway, I just dont want to get side tracked. If others want to, that is their baby
[08:13] <froud> for me I just hack the src
[08:13] <froud> those that join are welcome
[08:13] <froud> over time, the src will win, not wiki
[08:13] <jsgotangco> yeah we seem to be more productive that way
[08:13] <froud> yep
[08:13] <froud> far more
[08:14] <Burgundavia> http://lwn.net/Articles/135484/
[08:14] <jsgotangco> luke use the src
[08:14] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:15] <froud> yes seen that
[08:15] <froud> but people here dont want a steering committee
[08:16] <froud> I suggested this route sometime back, and got bitch slapped
[08:16] <Burgundavia> just thought I would mention it
[08:16] <Burgundavia> sent to the list as well
[08:16] <froud> no no good to know others know ofthese thing
[08:16] <froud> good on you
[08:16] <Burgundavia> notice, the head of the steering committe is a RH employee
[08:16] <froud> yeah, that is exepect
[08:16] <froud> expected
[08:16] <jsgotangco> doc bounty?
[08:17] <froud> I offered management and steering for a retainer, but that was ingnored like mostthings are
[08:17] <froud> anyway, dont want to get depressing
[08:18] <froud> Burgundavia: I starting fixing the dialup doc
[08:18] <froud> still need a few more patches
[08:18] <froud> and need to make it ISP neutral
[08:18] <jsgotangco> froud, is the dial up doc good enough for testing for DialUpSupport BOF
[08:18] <froud> Yeah, not bad at all
[08:19] <jsgotangco> amu and I pulled some stuff from it but i haven't really tested yet
[08:19] <jsgotangco> beause amu started a dialupresearch
[08:19] <froud> Burgundavia: the TCP/IP configure part of the install guide is at first draft
[08:20] <froud> jsgotangco: yeah saw that
[08:20] <froud> I will publish that doc over at kubuntu.org
[08:20] <froud> and the kubuntu install doc, soon
[08:20] <froud> just got to do the disk partioning stuff
[08:21] <froud> and maybe the install without media doc to be integrated
[08:21] <froud> oh shucks, I lost the link to that
[08:21] <froud> Burgundavia: do you have the link it it
[08:21] <froud> jsgotangco: hows the kwicj guide going
[08:21] <Burgundavia> which link?
[08:22] <froud> there was a doc about installing without cd or floppy
[08:22] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:22] <jsgotangco> hmmm kwickguide is almost done and will just need screenshots 
[08:22] <jsgotangco> but im not putting screenshots yet
[08:22] <froud> OK, so you will be ready for checking collaboration soon
[08:23] <froud> promise I will look at it this weekend, OK
[08:23] <jsgotangco> no problem with me as long as PDA Support doesn't eat up most of my time (i dont think so)
[08:23] <froud> ok
[08:23] <Burgundavia> froud, http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html
[08:24] <froud> see how much more productive we are when we focus on svn
[08:24] <froud> Burgundavia: thanks
[08:24] <jsgotangco> bah infrastructure "claptrap"
[08:24] <froud> Burgundavia: did you port it to xml?
[08:25] <Burgundavia> about half done
[08:26] <froud> Burgundavia: want me to do a checkin
[08:26] <Burgundavia> let me find it
[08:26] <jsgotangco> froud, what do you use for editing docbook anyway
[08:26] <froud> Oxygen XML Editor
[08:26] <jsgotangco> ooohhhhhhh
[08:26] <froud> I wrote the book and helped on the dev so I am biased
[08:28] <froud> but i do think it is the best
[08:28] <froud> of cours eit is JAVA
[08:29] <froud> JAVA
[08:29] <froud> JAVA
[08:29] <froud> JAVA
[08:29] <froud> JAVA
[08:29] <froud> ;-)
[08:30] <jsgotangco> my eyes! my eyes!
[08:31] <jsgotangco> wiki is so evil on the sidelines people just bow to it
[08:31] <froud> wiki is cool when used for the purpose it was intened
[08:33] <jsgotangco> yeah but some think it can fix everything
[08:33] <froud> Burgundavia: send me the xml file, I will check it in and hack some more on it
[08:33] <froud> Burgundavia: what did we agree, to add it to the generic installation guide, right?
[08:34] <jsgotangco> anyone know how good screem is for docbook?
[08:34] <froud> screem?
[08:34] <froud> url
[08:35] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, bluefish works well, and is more mature
[08:35] <jsgotangco> www.screem.org
[08:35] <jsgotangco> i want to compare im still partial to kate
[08:36] <froud> ouch there xml transformation has poor encoding
[08:36] <froud> jsgotangco: you can try Morphon
[08:36] <froud> it is JAVA
[08:37] <froud> JAVA
[08:37] <froud> JAVA
[08:37] <froud> JAVA
[08:37] <jsgotangco> blasphemer!
[08:37] <froud> http://www.morphon.com/
[08:37] <froud> http://www.morphon.com/
[08:37] <froud> http://www.morphon.com/
[08:37] <froud> http://www.morphon.com/
[08:38] <froud> blasphemy
[08:38] <froud> love it
[08:38] <jsgotangco> i used to run xmlspy for rosettanet projects
[08:38] <jsgotangco> its quite good
[08:38] <froud> nice for data orientated docs
[08:39] <froud> but that is Windows
[08:39] <froud> Windows
[08:39] <froud> Windows
[08:39] <froud> Windows
[08:39] <jsgotangco> its not so bad
[08:39] <froud> no very good for data docs
[08:39] <froud> not doc docs
[08:40] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:40] <jsgotangco> hold on
[08:40] <jsgotangco> brb
[08:55] <froud> work starts, c ya, Burgundavia send me the file
[09:47] <jsgotangco> ang dami kong email
[09:48] <jsgotangco> ooppss wrong chan
[09:51] <jsgotangco> this is crazy my apps dont work
[09:51] <jsgotangco> grr
[09:51] <jsgotangco> nautilus wont run either
[09:51] <jsgotangco> arggh
[09:54] <jsgotangco> wtf is wrong with this
[09:54] <jsgotangco> bbl
[10:27] <jsgotangco> enrico!
[10:27] <enrico> Hi!
[10:27] <jsgotangco> long time no see man
[10:27] <enrico> been quite busy
[10:28] <mdke> morning guys
[10:28] <enrico> I tend to be on IRC only in case of need, recently
[10:28] <jsgotangco> enrico, got a minute?
[10:28] <enrico> yes
[10:28] <jsgotangco> its with the existing gnome docs and scrollkeeper
[10:29] <jsgotangco> is it possible to clean up those
[10:33] <enrico> what do you mean clean up?
[10:34] <jsgotangco> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-May/002230.html
[10:36] <enrico> about the ordering in Yelp, that's tricky to do.  I remember jdub worked on having our documents displayed there at all, maybe he can manage to do some reordering for breezy
[10:36] <enrico> Point #2 is likewise
[10:36] <enrico> (sounds like a yelp bug)
[10:37] <jsgotangco> it is
[10:37] <jsgotangco> :(
[10:38] <enrico> fixing or improving existing documentation would be very nice
[10:38] <enrico> especially if such improvements can be contributed upstream as well
[10:38] <jsgotangco> yeah theres too much info its kinda hardto ignore
[10:38] <enrico> in the past we tried to see if there was an easy way of doing it, and we failed
[10:39] <enrico> (the idea was that one should spend time mainly in fixing the docs rather than in figuring out how to checkout the thing and submit the patch upstream)
[10:39] <enrico> That does not mean that there isn't a way of doing it now
[10:40] <froud-work> no, any is fixable
[10:40] <enrico> The problem is finding it.  The way I see of doing it is to involve Sean and some of the devels in finding out how to do this
[10:40] <froud-work> just that it is a distraction
[10:40] <enrico> the problem I see is this:
[10:40] <froud-work> enrico: I wont get involved in any of these innitiative anymore :-)
[10:40] <enrico> the developers are used at doing all sorts of hacks for playing it nicely with upstream, and they see no problem if doing so is complex
[10:41] <enrico> I found it quite hard to work with them to find out an easy way for that 
[10:41] <enrico> froud-work:  :-))
[10:41] <enrico> froud-work: heyya!
[10:41] <jsgotangco> froud-work, don't say that, this is long term not breezy goal
[10:41] <froud-work> my focus is in svn
[10:41] <froud-work> enrico: hi
[10:41] <jsgotangco> don't make me feel discouraged :(
[10:41] <froud-work> jsgotangco: not discouraging, just noting that itis a distraction
[10:42] <froud-work> being a bit harsh
[10:42] <enrico> I've never understood if it's simpler to learn baz or to drop the things into svn
[10:42] <froud-work> but I plan to make a decision about scrapping yelp
[10:42] <enrico> dropping the things into svn would be the best one, I guess (that means not changing any of the existing process)
[10:43] <froud-work> yeah, I have vendor drops ready
[10:43] <froud-work> but have to teach
[10:43] <jsgotangco> its just a matter of upgrading svn i guess to support that
[10:43] <froud-work> and yelp will break
[10:43] <enrico> jsgotangco: file bugs on yelp for #1 and #2
[10:43] <jsgotangco> ok
[10:43] <froud-work> you cant whip a dead horse
[10:44] <mdke> sure you can
[10:44] <froud-work> it wont feel it
[10:44] <mdke> :p
[10:44] <mdke> true
[10:44] <froud-work> hello mdke 
[10:44] <mdke> morning :)
[10:44] <enrico> froud-work: yum yum.  So, isn't it just the matter of trying dropping in just one upstream stuff and see how it works?
[10:44] <enrico> mdke: hi!
[10:44] <froud-work> dudes my take on all this stunted technology is drop it
[10:44] <enrico> froud-work: maybe creating a StepByStep guide in the meantime
[10:44] <mdke> ciao enrico
[10:45] <froud-work> yes
[10:45] <froud-work> enrico: big checkout though 
[10:45] <jsgotangco> froud-work, i see the logic in dropping yelp with a gecko-type browser or mozembed but question is are we just going to use browsers?
[10:45] <froud-work> for now, yes
[10:45] <enrico> froud-work: maybe just one small piece?
[10:45] <jsgotangco> i dont mind that hack
[10:45] <froud-work> yelp can still read the docs
[10:46] <froud-work> but as html
[10:46] <froud-work> jsgotangco: you know ubuntu guide
[10:46] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:46] <enrico> yelp things are still to be negotiated with mdz and jdub, I guess
[10:46] <froud-work> you know it is in svn
[10:47] <jsgotangco> froud-work, yeah a part of it
[10:47] <froud-work> enrico: I am done negotiating with them
[10:47] <enrico> froud-work: oh, sounds negative
[10:47] <froud-work> jsgotangco: well help cant open it cause it does not support qanda sets
[10:47] <froud-work> enrico: it is
[10:47] <froud-work> long story
[10:47] <enrico> ok
[10:48] <froud-work> jsgotangco: but ifyou transform it to html yelp can read it
[10:48] <froud-work> we can do the same with all docteam stuff
[10:49] <enrico> froud-work: worst case, one can do yelpable about ubuntu and release notes, and html all the rest
[10:49] <jsgotangco> its a docbook thing

[10:49] <froud-work>             <qandaentry id="sect-whatis">
[10:49] <froud-work>                 <question>
[10:49] <enrico> AH Q and A :)
[10:49] <froud-work>                     <para>What is Ubuntu?</para>
[10:49] <enrico> ok :)
[10:49] <froud-work>                 </question>
[10:49] <froud-work>                 <answer>
[10:49] <froud-work>                     <para>
[10:49] <froud-work>                         <ulink url="&ubuntu-main;">Main Ubuntu site</ulink>
[10:49] <froud-work>                     </para>
[10:49] <froud-work>                 </answer>
[10:49] <froud-work>             </qandaentry>
[10:50] <froud-work>             <qandaentry id="sect-downl">
[10:50] <froud-work>                 <question>
[10:50] <froud-work>                     <para>Where to download Ubuntu?</para>
[10:50] <froud-work>                 </question>
[10:50] <froud-work>                 <answer>
[10:50] <froud-work>                     <para>
[10:50] <enrico> At the beginning I thought it was an australian aboriginal word
[10:50] <froud-work>                         <ulink url="&ubuntu-download;">Ubuntu download link.</ulink>
[10:50] <froud-work>                     </para>
[10:50] <froud-work>                 </answer>
[10:50] <froud-work>             </qandaentry>
[10:50] <froud-work> and GDP does not intend adding support for it
[10:50] <froud-work> I can understand why
[10:50] <froud-work> they have no need for it
[10:50] <froud-work> none of the gnome projects do
[10:50] <froud-work> anyway
[10:50] <froud-work> :-)
[10:50] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:50] <froud-work> so I dont really want to negotiate with canonical on a community effort
[10:51] <jsgotangco> the one in svn was a nasty hack
[10:51] <froud-work> jsgotangco: no it is valid and well formed
[10:51] <froud-work> transforme dto HTML looks good
[10:51] <enrico> froud-work: how about asking some of the devels to add it to yelp?  Like, since Ubuntu needs it, Ubuntu can add that support in it
[10:51] <jsgotangco> uphill battle
[10:52] <enrico> froud-work: but you're right
[10:52] <froud-work> enrico: I plan to work in the walls of the docteam
[10:52] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:52] <froud-work> anything beyond is no go land
[10:52] <enrico> froud-work: I was paid to do this sorts of negotiation, so that was fine
[10:52] <mdke> *grins*
[10:52] <enrico> froud-work: but if one has to do things just for fun, then eh
[10:53] <enrico> froud-work: better to focus on the fun and let who needs it follow
[10:53] <mdke> enrico, you're not anymore?
[10:53] <froud-work> enrico: exactly, they want more they can pay me
[10:53] <jsgotangco> i think doing these things for fun is of more importance rather than being paid
[10:53] <jsgotangco> if you're having fun, that means you intend to do it
[10:53] <jsgotangco> but then
[10:53] <enrico> mdke: no, the contract expired at the end of february and I didn't sign a new one
[10:53] <jsgotangco> long story
[10:53] <jsgotangco> *sigh*
[10:53] <mdke> enrico, ah bummer
[10:53] <enrico> mdke: the reason being that I have a full-time job now and I can't keep up with two
[10:54] <froud-work> enrico: welcome to the plbs
[10:54] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, maybe they need docteams heh
[10:54] <froud-work> ok dudes, look out
[10:54] <mdke> ok i'm off to school
[10:54] <mdke> later
[10:54] <froud-work> by month end I will have bibio and glossterm databases in svn
[10:54] <froud-work> next month vendor drops, if elmo upgrades
[10:55] <jsgotangco> biblio ang gloss are good
[10:55] <froud-work> month after that xml to html build with desktop and arch profiles
[10:55] <enrico> "Symphony is a [...]  linux distro based on Knoppix"
[10:55] <enrico> booh.  sounds like a dead end :(
[10:55] <froud-work> the generic install guide is already enroute to this
[10:56] <enrico> froud-work: awesome!!
[10:56] <froud-work> instead of debating this, I am just going to break protocol and do it
[10:56] <jsgotangco> its a good risk
[10:56] <froud-work> if people who are not commiting scream I will pretend to be deaf
[10:57] <froud-work> however, if commiters have problems I will be all ears
[10:57] <jsgotangco> youre pumped up lately
[10:57] <froud-work> no just doing what I know will work and tired of listening to crap from people who have no clue what they are saying :-)
[10:58] <froud-work> and who do not write and commit
[10:58] <enrico> froud-work: doesn't sound like a bad approach
[10:58] <jsgotangco> hah
[10:58] <jsgotangco> i dont mind doing this my way or the highway thing, we've done good weeks before hoary and it works for us
[10:58] <froud-work> so by focusing on the contents of svn I will screan out all outer noise
[10:59] <enrico> what are the docteam plans for Breezy?
[10:59] <froud-work> any of these
[10:59] <froud-work> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
[10:59] <jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
[10:59] <froud-work> jsgotangco: on kwick guide
[10:59] <froud-work> me on install
[11:00] <froud-work> and some others
[11:00] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, seen this? http://www.symphonyos.com/desktop.html
[11:00] <froud-work> mdke: the legal dude on User Guide
[11:00] <froud-work> Burgundavia: on faq
[11:00] <froud-work> I think
[11:00] <froud-work> :-)
[11:00] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:00] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, yeah i don't like the UI
[11:00] <jsgotangco> corner applets are terrible
[11:00] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, interesting ideas
[11:00] <froud-work> well first he need to get hs key back
[11:01] <Burgundavia> I like the fact that windows cannot go outside the screen
[11:01] <jsgotangco> well that's one thing
[11:01] <enrico> is jiyuu0 back to business with his UbuntuGuide?
[11:01] <froud-work> yes, but it is still closed source :-(
[11:02] <jsgotangco> froud-work, seen Andrew Zajac's post?
[11:02] <froud-work> and he did not work in svn
[11:02] <froud-work> which one
[11:02] <jsgotangco> ubuntuforums
[11:02] <froud-work> yeah
[11:02] <enrico> [symphony]  corner applets?  Cool!  Finally someone noticed what part of the screen is easier to click!
[11:02] <jsgotangco> As it is, the docs in SVN are not
[11:02] <jsgotangco> offering the kind of documentation that many users need.
[11:02] <jsgotangco> The documentation that is currently there is either not indexed
[11:02] <jsgotangco> adequately, or is too broad in scope and does not offer precise
[11:02] <jsgotangco> answers to common questions.
[11:02] <froud-work> I broke out of the talk
[11:02] <jsgotangco> just scream: ITS YELP
[11:02] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:03] <froud-work> no he has a bigger picture
[11:03] <enrico> wow, that's a lot of projects
[11:03] <froud-work> something Burgundavia and I discussed long ago
[11:03] <froud-work> plenty of work
[11:03] <jsgotangco> the portal
[11:03] <jsgotangco> yeah
[11:03] <jsgotangco> ive read of that
[11:03] <jsgotangco> bah
[11:04] <froud-work> enrico: so we all need to focus in svn, not portals and wikis and crap like yelp
[11:04] <froud-work> work small commit often
[11:04] <froud-work> and we will have ample time
[11:04] <jsgotangco> we're stuck with that crap for now but we'll live
[11:04] <enrico> and [mainly]  have fun!
[11:04] <froud-work> yeah, loads of fun
[11:05] <froud-work> ooh oh ho ha ra ra, yehaw
[11:05] <froud-work> Burgundavia: where is that file
[11:05] <froud-work> are you gonna send it?
[11:05] <Burgundavia> somewhere in my files, I have no idea where
[11:06] <froud-work> Oh dude shall I do it from scratch?
[11:06] <jsgotangco> oh he's become the doc team whip master
[11:06] <froud-work> who me
[11:06] <Burgundavia> froud-work, si tu veux
[11:06] <froud-work> en please
[11:08] <froud-work> So dudes, I need ideas to a problem
[11:08] <froud-work> I have a docbook XML glossary database over at computerdictionary.tsf.org
[11:08] <jsgotangco> why do i feel deja vu on this chat right now
[11:09] <froud-work> how the hell to process glossterms without forking that code base
[11:09] <froud-work> the glossterms in our docs
[11:09] <froud-work> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/
[11:10] <froud-work> need a method to dynamically parse the above and add glossary entries to the docs at time of transformation
[11:10] <froud-work> any ideas
[11:11] <jsgotangco> i dont get it
[11:11] <froud-work> ok the above has over 21297 glossterms
[11:11] <froud-work> that's a lot of code
[11:11] <jsgotangco> im sure of that
[11:12] <froud-work> so how to process our docs and dynamically generate the glossary section
[11:12] <froud-work> without having to checkout the above
[11:12] <froud-work> or store it in our svn
[11:13] <froud-work> the glossary mech will only add glossterms that are used by the doc
[11:13] <froud-work> so lets say
[11:13] <enrico> froud-work: XSLT to generate a wordlist needing a glossary on docteam stuff, then XSLT on computerdictionary.t.o.z to extract a subset?
[11:13] <froud-work> you markup 50 terms
[11:13] <froud-work> the glossary section will only have 50 words
[11:13] <froud-work> enrico: the docbook stylesheets to this
[11:14] <froud-work> but it has to happen between two remote systems
[11:14] <froud-work> making processing slow
[11:14] <jsgotangco> i see the point but i think the bottleneck will happen when parsing those glossterms
[11:14] <jsgotangco> remotely
[11:14] <jsgotangco> ack
[11:15] <froud-work> that is the problem
[11:15] <froud-work> my current solution
[11:15] <jsgotangco> problem too is that we don't need all those glossterms
[11:15] <froud-work> I have a wc or the glossdatabase
[11:15] <froud-work> but we never know when we do
[11:16] <froud-work> is it reasonabl eto expect people to checkout a wc of the above
[11:16] <jsgotangco> if you have a wc you can upload it but it will have a huge impact on bandwidth during transmission/download
[11:16] <froud-work> to a specific location
[11:16] <froud-work> common to all of us
[11:16] <enrico> froud-work: package the glossary and use it as a build-depend?
[11:16] <froud-work> enrico: not much use as a package when building html
[11:17] <enrico> froud-work: I didn't get you: what do you mean?
[11:17] <froud-work> the glossary section is automatically generated at the end of the document
[11:17] <jsgotangco> froud-work, its not that much of an issue anyway except for the file size i guess so you can just commit it
[11:18] <enrico> froud-work: my point was: package the glossary like we do with our docs, so that the docbook sources of it are installed somewhere.  Then our build system can just point at the locally installed version, like we do with the docbook stylesheets
[11:18] <jsgotangco> at least it was committed this early
[11:18] <froud-work> enrico: not clear, let me explain
[11:18] <froud-work> at end of our doc we put
[11:18] <froud-work> <glossary role="auto">
[11:18] <froud-work>         <glossentry>
[11:19] <froud-work>             <glossterm>Dummy</glossterm>
[11:19] <froud-work>             <glossdef>
[11:19] <froud-work>                 <para>Now you see me, next you won't.</para>
[11:19] <froud-work>             </glossdef>
[11:19] <froud-work>         </glossentry>
[11:19] <froud-work>     </glossary>
[11:20] <froud-work> then we process passing
[11:20] <froud-work> <xsl:param name="glossterm.auto.link" select="1"/>
[11:20] <froud-work>     <xsl:param name="firstterm.only.link" select="1"/>
[11:20] <froud-work>     <xsl:param name="glossary.collection">../../../common/glossary.xml</xsl:param>
[11:20] <froud-work>     <xsl:param name="glossentry.show.acronym" select="'primary'"/>
[11:20] <froud-work> in doc we mark terms as <glossterm>fooo</glossterm>
[11:20] <froud-work> on transformation the XSL goes and collects glossentry for each glossterm
[11:21] <froud-work> dynamic
[11:21] <froud-work> but not in yelp
[11:21] <jsgotangco> it will break in yelp methinks
[11:21] <froud-work> so we transform XML > HTML and the above happens
[11:21] <jsgotangco> but transformed to html no problems
[11:21] <enrico> yes, right, I get this
[11:22] <enrico> And it's all very very cool!
[11:22] <froud-work> OK I must go to meetings, think it over.
[11:22] <enrico> the problem is that the glossary entries are remote, so it takes a lot to compile?
[11:22] <enrico> my proposal is to package the glossary entries so that they can be installed locally
[11:22] <k31th> Hello 
[11:22] <jsgotangco> upload it on svn then?
[11:22] <froud-work> enrico: yes, and we dontneed to package the xml, just html
[11:22] <enrico> froud-work: but we'd need to package the glossary's XML
[11:23] <froud-work> I was thinking that we ask people to do checkout to vendor
[11:23] <enrico> froud-work: and as a side effect, everyone that wants to do that trick can reuse the same package
[11:23] <jsgotangco> hello k31th 
[11:23] <k31th> is there a place on the ubuntu site where there is a document request ? 
[11:23] <k31th> jsgotangco: watsup
[11:23] <jsgotangco> k31th, there is none but we have breezy targets
[11:23] <k31th> kk
[11:23] <jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
[11:23] <froud-work> enrico: that makes the payload very big
[11:23] <enrico> froud-work: the glossary's XML files, once packaged, would be found in /usr/share/glossary/stuff
[11:23] <k31th> so what do you need making 
[11:23] <enrico> froud-work: no, because it's a build-depend, not a dependency of the package itself
[11:23] <froud-work> enrico: ah I see
[11:24] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[11:24] <enrico> froud-work: you need that to BUILD, but then the relevant parts are copied in your package and you don't need the full glossary anymore
[11:24] <froud-work> like installing the dtd or xsl
[11:24] <enrico> froud-work: right
[11:24] <k31th> brb
[11:24] <froud-work> Hmm. can you do a deb packaging for this, please
[11:25] <enrico> froud-work: sure.  point me at a tarball with upstream sources
[11:25] <jsgotangco> yeah that can really help
[11:26] <froud-work> enrico: no tarball as yet, but checkout svn://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/terms/trunk/dict
[11:26] <froud-work> I will send you a commit acount
[11:27] <froud-work> give me a minute
[11:27] <enrico> froud-work: ok
[11:28] <enrico> froud-work: in change for the packaging, you'll write a short text file explaining how to use the glossary in other DocBook projects, and we'll put it in /usr/share/doc
[11:28] <jsgotangco> jjeeezz this site is huge
[11:28] <enrico> froud-work: do you mind if I upload it in Debian instead of Ubuntu?  That'll make it more generally useful as well
[11:29] <enrico> And it'll get into Ubuntu on its feet, then
[11:30] <froud-work> sent
[11:31] <froud-work> ok I must go to meeting. Thanks dudes
[11:37] <k31th> am i right in thinking this is the doc team ?
[11:37] <jsgotangco> this is the doc team
[11:37] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:37] <jsgotangco> you think this is the devel channel?
[11:38] <k31th> lol no...
[11:38] <jsgotangco> anyway welcome how can we help you
[11:38] <k31th> so for example.. if i want to help with the admin guide
[11:38] <k31th> do i just go ahead and write sections ?
[11:39] <jsgotangco> hmmm would you like some adventure in doing docs?
[11:39] <jsgotangco> you can check out svn if you want
[11:39] <k31th> k ?
[11:39] <k31th> svn ?
[11:40] <jsgotangco> all our docs are in svn
[11:40] <jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[11:40] <jsgotangco> we do all our work in DocBook
[11:40] <jsgotangco> you don't need to know this for now
[11:41] <k31th> k
[11:41] <k31th> so
[11:41] <jsgotangco> becausewith the docbook format, we can transform the document into any format we may need like html, etc.
[11:41] <k31th> wat do you want me to do basically :p
[11:42] <k31th> wat guides etc need writing
[11:42] <jsgotangco> hmm take your pick and let's see if someone is doing stuff on it
[11:42] <jsgotangco> you're empowered to hack away docs
[11:44] <jsgotangco> froud-away, your dial-up howto is not well formed
[11:45] <k31th> jsgotangco: ok what about Secure shell in the security section
[11:46] <k31th> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/adminguide/ch05s05.html
[11:46] <k31th> i presume you want it writen in manual layout on how to secure ssh servers and clients ?
[11:46] <k31th> with an a section explaining it ?
[11:47] <jsgotangco> hmm let me check the docs
[11:47] <k31th> kk
[11:49] <jsgotangco> hmm svn is empty as well i guess sean has some stuff to include but you're free to write stuff about it and commit. We're all going to review them before freeze anyway
[11:50] <k31th> kk
[11:50] <k31th> so if i just write a guide on howto  secure ssh 
[11:50] <k31th> then show you it, thats kool ?
[11:52] <jsgotangco> yeah we'll commit it
[11:52] <k31th> nice
[11:52] <k31th> no doubt ull ripp it apart as this is going to be my first doc :D
[11:52] <jsgotangco> but committing them doesn't mean it goes in ok but its up for review
[11:53] <jsgotangco> there's always a first time :)
[11:53] <jsgotangco> just take small steps and when you think you're ready, go check out svn
[11:53] <jsgotangco> we're not rushing, we're all learning
[11:54] <k31th> kool
[11:54] <jsgotangco> (we're going to rush before freeze though)
[11:55] <k31th> is that the next release ?
[11:56] <jsgotangco> yeah are you familiar with ubuntu release dates?
[11:56] <k31th> no i think its every 6  months am i right ?
[11:56] <jsgotangco> that is correct
[11:56] <jsgotangco> that means we're releasing breezy in october
[11:56] <k31th> kool
[11:56] <jsgotangco> hence the 5.10 mark
[11:57] <jsgotangco> (200)5.10(October)
[11:57] <k31th> ahh i get it ...
[11:57] <jsgotangco> 5.04
[11:57] <jsgotangco> get it?
[12:02] <k31th> up i  gets it 
[12:02] <k31th> does much change between release ?? 
[12:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:02] <jsgotangco> of course
[12:02] <k31th> i see
[12:02] <Burgundavia> as much as they possibly can
[12:02] <k31th> i mean doc wise
[12:02] <jsgotangco> we'll have mono by default
[12:02] <jsgotangco> k31th, definitely
[12:03] <k31th> kool
[12:03] <jsgotangco> some stuff gets retained, most change
[12:03] <Burgundavia> yes, becuase new programs are added, and old ones changed
[12:03] <jsgotangco> gnomebaker i hate you
[12:03] <Burgundavia> serpentine is very cool
[12:04] <jsgotangco> bah after they finish breaking stuff
[12:05] <jsgotangco> i had to manually fschk my drive a few hours ago
[12:05] <jsgotangco> things just dont work
[12:05] <jsgotangco> hmm
[12:05] <jsgotangco> lost some files too
[12:06] <jiyuu0> jsgotangco, u mean gnomebaker broke ur filesystem?
[12:06] <jsgotangco> no no
[12:07] <jsgotangco> i was doing my planner thing on emacs in a seminar this morning
[12:07] <jsgotangco> then i had my laptop  sleep
[12:07] <jsgotangco> when i turned it on again, things went hairy
[12:07] <jsgotangco> until things wont run anymore syaing my fs is read only
[12:08] <jsgotangco> im backing up some files atm
[12:08] <jsgotangco> just in case
[12:08] <jiyuu0> that's weird
[12:08] <jsgotangco> it is
[12:08] <jsgotangco> first time i experienced it
[12:08] <jiyuu0> one weird thing i encounter is... suddenly sudoer files got lock for no reason
[12:08] <jiyuu0> so can't sudo anymore
[12:08] <jiyuu0> and no root passwd
[12:09] <k31th> jsgotangco: i presume in the security section of ssh you dont want me to tell them how to install sshd ?
[12:09] <jsgotangco> k31th, nobody's stopping you just write what you want
[12:10] <jsgotangco> we'll go to specifics later
[12:10] <jsgotangco> its a guide after all
[12:11] <k31th> kk
[12:23] <jsgotangco> ok im out
[12:23] <jsgotangco> later
[12:23] <jsgotangco> k31th, you can just email your stuff on the ubuntu-doc list
[04:09] <mdke> supsup
[04:14] <mdke> mako, around?
[04:26] <mdke> jdub, did you get round to writing those emails you spoke of?
[04:28] <jdub> not today
[04:35] <mdke> :(
[05:32] <mdke> mmmmmmm i tell y'all what is fun
[05:32] <mdke> converting a page to moin which has been written in html with what looks like microsoft word
[06:39] <mdke> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[08:40] <froud-away> enrico
[08:45] <froud> enrico you there
[08:48] <enrico> froud: for very much short
[08:48] <froud> di dyou understand my message
[08:49] <froud> so long as the computer dictionary can be packaged from the svn://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/terms/trunk/dict/ folder
[08:49] <froud> it will not be used for disply
[08:49] <froud> just as a build
[08:49] <froud> dependancy
[08:49] <enrico> ok, so the images are not used for the dictionary itself
[08:50] <froud> not required when it is used as a database
[08:50] <froud> in root of trunk you have website too
[08:50] <froud> we dont need tha
[08:50] <froud> t
[08:51] <froud> I still have to insert 21297 unique id values to the files before can use them
[08:51] <froud> but if we get the packaging ready it will be good
[08:57] <froud> k31th: see you want to hack admin guide, welcome
[09:04] <k31th> hey
[09:04] <k31th> wassup froud 
[09:07] <froud> k31th: hi
[09:08] <froud> k31th: I see you are going to write some things on admin guide
[09:09] <k31th> froud: yeah thats the ideal 
[09:09] <k31th> going to make a start in a min
[09:09] <froud> k31th: what is in the admin guide files now is just an outline, so feel free to write any section, add or delete as you see fit
[09:09] <froud> nobody else is hacking it at the moment
[09:09] <k31th> ok brilliant 
[09:09] <k31th> ahhh excellant 
[09:10] <froud> have you seen the SuSE Admin Guide
[09:10] <k31th> no
[09:10] <froud> What About RH
[09:10] <froud> or Fedora
[09:10] <k31th> i was going to look at some other documentation first
[09:10] <froud> when I wrote the outline I had someting like the SuSE Admin Guide in mind
[09:10] <k31th> iv seen gentoo docs
[09:10] <k31th> and debian
[09:10] <froud> it should bee a book
[09:11] <froud> not an online help
[09:11] <froud> OK great, well feel free to go for it
[09:11] <froud> r u ok with svn and docbook
[09:11] <froud> you know how to create patches etc?
[09:11] <k31th> ahh svn no 
[09:12] <froud> Ok you running Ubuntu I hope
[09:12] <k31th> na windows ME
[09:12] <k31th> of corse i am :p
[09:12] <k31th> Hoary 
[09:12] <froud> OK do you have subversion installed
[09:12] <k31th> i run debian gentoo ubuntu
[09:12] <k31th> im just doing it now 2 secs
[09:13] <froud> Ok once you have svn installed just do
[09:13] <froud> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-docs
[09:13] <froud> that will create a folder named ubuntu-docs in your pwd
[09:14] <mkde> froud what do you use for editing xml?
[09:14] <k31th> ok its doig it
[09:14] <k31th> doing
[09:14] <froud> mkde: frist I must say I like the new nick
[09:14] <mkde> heh
[09:14] <froud> kde rocks
[09:15] <froud> mkde: I use Oxygen XML Editor
[09:15] <mkde> froud, i've used this nick for a while when I come on with my laptop, it was your idea, remember?
[09:15] <froud> mkde:  is is not free
[09:15] <mkde> oh right
[09:15] <froud> yeah
[09:15] <mkde> is it your program?
[09:15] <froud> just noticed
[09:15] <froud> mkde: not mine
[09:15] <froud> I just wrote the manual a long time ago
[09:16] <mkde> ah
[09:16] <k31th> froud: ok its done that
[09:16] <froud> k31th: I trust you have docbook dtd and xsl installed
[09:16] <mkde> froud, anything else you would recommend? i'm on emacs right now
[09:16] <froud> mkde: do you mind java
[09:17] <k31th> froud: err no
[09:17] <mkde> i don't have it installed i don't think
[09:17] <k31th> have docbook
[09:17] <mkde> nothing against it licence-wise
[09:17] <froud> k31th:  ok you should have the tool chain installed
[09:17] <froud> k31th: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork
[09:18] <k31th> kk
[09:18] <froud> k31th: what editor do you use for editing
[09:18] <froud> mkde: you can use eclipse
[09:19] <froud> mkde: any xml aware editor will do
[09:19] <froud> even kate
[09:19] <mkde> will emacs do?
[09:19] <froud> mkde: of course
[09:19] <froud> psgmls mode installed?
[09:19] <mkde> i'm pretty unfamiliar with emacs tho, but I installed some kind of xml plugin for it, no idea if its activated
[09:20] <froud> you will know
[09:20] <mkde> how?
[09:20] <froud> but emacs is cool
[09:20] <froud> mkde: syntax highlights will come on when you load an xml with xml mode on
[09:20] <mkde> ok i have that
[09:21] <mkde> and there is an xml menu too
[09:21] <froud> yep
[09:21] <mkde> its ugly as hell but I'm sure it will work fine ;)
[09:21] <froud> you can also use VI
[09:21] <froud> or VIM
[09:21] <froud> Gedit will do good too
[09:22] <mkde> oh right
[09:22] <froud> k31th: you should read http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[09:22] <k31th> froud: this is the first time iv been on a doc team
[09:22] <froud> everything is more or less explained there about working with svn
[09:22] <k31th> i use nano to edit txt normally ?
[09:23] <froud> Hmm is nano xml aware?
[09:23] <mkde> gedit looks pretty good
[09:23] <mkde> k31th, try gedit
[09:23] <k31th> froud: ill read it
[09:24] <froud> k31th: if you want cli checkout VI http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookVim
[09:24] <k31th> chain etc arnt in the repository 
[09:24] <froud> otherwise default to gedit
[09:24] <k31th> iv not like vim and vi in past
[09:24] <mkde> me neither
[09:24] <k31th> i like nano 
[09:24] <froud> sorry what is iv
[09:24] <mkde> froud, userguide seems to overlap heavily with other guides
[09:24] <k31th> i can use that ?
[09:24] <mkde> froud, s/iv/vi
[09:24] <mkde> froud, s/iv/i've
[09:25] <mkde> doh
[09:25] <froud> k31th: I dont think nano is xml aware
[09:25] <froud> k31th: but it can edit xml
[09:25] <k31th> ahh
[09:25] <froud> xml is just a text file
[09:25] <k31th> ok
[09:25] <k31th> yeah i know
[09:26] <mkde> k31th, you can use nano but the relevant sections won't be as clear. For gedit see http://mdke.mine.nu/gedit.png
[09:26] <k31th> ill try gedit ?
[09:26] <froud> mkde: yes ther eis overlap, it is intended
[09:26] <mkde> froud, so I should try and sync it with aboutubuntu and installguide?
[09:26] <mkde> or not?
[09:26] <froud> mkde: no write a book
[09:26] <k31th> mkde: yes i have it on screen loaded up
[09:26] <froud> mkde: user and admin guides are not short things
[09:27] <k31th> now i just need to get cracking 
[09:27] <mkde> froud, what do you mean write a book
[09:27] <froud> k31th: you know docbook?
[09:27] <froud> mkde: think of the user manual as a book, not online help
[09:27] <k31th> froud: nope i need to get reading
[09:28] <froud> k31th: kk
[09:28] <froud> mkde: ever seen a user manual for SuSE?
[09:28] <froud> or Fedora
[09:28] <froud> mkde: tink like this
[09:28] <k31th> nope 
[09:28] <k31th> should i check them out ?
[09:29] <froud> k31th: huh?
[09:29] <k31th> suse manual
[09:29] <mkde> froud, what is the difference between a book and online help
[09:30] <froud> k31th: I was speaking to mkde , but yes if you can find a copy of the user/admin manuals fo rother distros they will giv eyou a good idea
[09:30] <froud> Online help is short
[09:30] <froud> book explains longer
[09:30] <froud> mkde: go into your local book shop and se eif you can find a book on Linux, that wil lgive you the idea
[09:31] <mkde> froud, sure, but users will use our documentation to find solutions to individual problems too will they not?
[09:31] <froud> Something like Linux (Fifth Edition)
[09:31] <froud> There is FAQ Guide for quick stuff
[09:32] <mkde> hmm
[09:32] <mkde> yes i see that
[09:32] <froud> But that does not give newbies enough background information
[09:32] <mkde> so what you're saying is that the userguide should be more like a book, whereas the faq guide should be more like online documentation?
[09:32] <froud> In User Manual you will have to give intro, background etc
[09:32] <mkde> mm
[09:32] <froud> Yes
[09:33] <mkde> ok i see
[09:33] <froud> Think like you will go to a book shop and buy a book on Linux for beginners
[09:33] <froud> k31th: mkde : the same goes for the admin guide
[09:33] <froud> but this is just a little more technical
[09:33] <mkde> but still surely there should be an element of synching between the aboutubuntu->userguide documents and the installguide->userguide documents
[09:34] <froud> admin guide should assume the person has read user guide or has some experience with linux
[09:34] <froud> There is
[09:34] <froud> but for now, just hack the src and I will get to that part later
[09:35] <mkde> couple more questions, hope you don't mind
[09:35] <froud> shoot
[09:35] <mkde> the indenting thing
[09:35] <mkde> its really awkward
[09:35] <mkde> see that screenshot i posted above?
[09:35] <froud> you will find it useful
[09:35] <mkde> when you add things to paragraphs, is it necessary to redo the indenting?
[09:36] <mkde> delete all the whitespace, then add more in a different place?
[09:36] <froud> mkde: dont worry about keeping the indent perfect
[09:36] <mkde> naturally I understand the indenting of <tags>, i'm just talking about the indenting of text
[09:36] <froud> so long as you have a start and close tag
[09:36] <k31th> froud:  so aim is for beginners even tho its a admin manual ?
[09:36] <froud> dont worry about that, just let it wrap
[09:37] <froud> k31th: yes, many users are new and yet they need to do admin tasks
[09:37] <k31th> froud: yeah tru.dat
[09:37] <mkde> froud, so in this example, its ok that one of the lines doesn't indent? http://mdke.mine.nu/gedit.png (new screenshot)
[09:38] <froud> mkde: fine
[09:38] <mkde> ok cool
[09:38] <mkde> thanks
[09:38] <froud> you just hack the src and make sure it is well-formed
[09:38] <froud> I will take care of the pretty indents for you
[09:38] <mkde> you have it automated?
[09:39] <froud> ;-)
[09:39] <mkde> cool
[09:39] <mkde> i've forgotten the last question i had
[09:39] <froud> see tidy
[09:39] <froud> mkde: k31th : I assume you both know how to make patches
[09:39] <mkde> i can upload right?
[09:39] <k31th> froud: theres a man or admin kde and admin gnome right ?
[09:40] <froud> mkde: do you have a commit account
[09:40] <mkde> yes
[09:40] <froud> ok so you can do commits
[09:40] <mkde> oh yeah, my last question was, why didn't the userguide ship already? its not in bad shape
[09:40] <k31th> froud: patches for?? froud dont presume im new to docs 
[09:40] <mkde> k31th, on that page that froud posted it describes how to submit patches for your changes
[09:41] <froud> k31th: when you have a peice finished you create a patch
[09:41] <k31th> yeah imreading down that
[09:41] <froud> send it to me or the list and we will check it and apply it
[09:41] <k31th> tell you wat ill just read that and get on and ask here if im stuck ?
[09:41] <mkde> k31th, basically when you make changes, you make a patch and send it to the list, and we can apply the patch for you to update the doc
[09:41] <k31th> sounds great
[09:41] <mkde> k31th, we're always here ;)
[09:41] <froud> mkde: k31th : tip from me, work small, patch often
[09:41] <k31th> brilliant so am i
[09:41] <k31th> at work or home lol
[09:42] <k31th> wat a geek !
[09:42] <mkde> froud, presumably a commit every 5 minutes isn't appreciated tho... o.o
[09:42] <froud> mkde: k31th : aim to do a section and then commit it
[09:42] <froud> do logical blocks
[09:43] <mkde> oh yeah, my last question was, why didn't the userguide ship already? its not in bad shape <-- froud
[09:43] <froud> not ready to ship
[09:43] <mkde> shame
[09:43] <froud> mkde: k31th : suggest you subscribe to th ecommit list
[09:43] <froud> see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
[09:44] <froud> This will show you when people commit to svn
[09:44] <froud> makes life easier
[09:45] <mkde> how come?
[09:46] <froud> mkde: when a commit happens in svn a copy of the patch is sent to the commit list, so you can see who did what
[09:46] <froud> without having to check and search for stuff
[09:46] <froud> are you subscribed?
[09:47] <mkde> not right now
[09:47] <froud> if not subscribe now and I will make a commit to show what I mean
[09:47] <mkde> don't worry
[09:47] <mkde> i see the point :)
[09:47] <mkde> i'll subscribe
[09:47] <froud> OK
[09:47] <froud> ;-)
[09:47] <mkde> are the messages subject header tagged?
[09:48] <froud> yes
[09:48] <k31th> done
[09:48] <mkde> excellent
[09:48] <froud> we dont mail to that list though only get
[09:48] <k31th> now... im going to read that ppage :D
[09:49] <froud> mkde: you may find it useful to use a gui front end to svn
[09:49] <k31th> froud: such as?
[09:49] <froud> sudo apt-get install esvn
[09:49] <mkde> froud, i quite like cli svn tbh
[09:52] <k31th> froud when i get round to writing this guide not learning howto write the guide :p do you want me to use cmd line or gui for the admin tasks ?
[09:53] <k31th> froud: im a cmd line person myself... 
[09:54] <mkde> imo it depends on whether the guide is specific to gnome/kde or intends to be independent of the two
[09:57] <froud> k31th: some things can only be done on cli other on both
[09:57] <froud> default to cli
[09:57] <froud> and if there is a gui route, use that as additional method
[09:58] <froud> mkde: there is a gnome user guide and a kde user guide
[09:58] <mkde> i meant the admin guide
[09:58] <froud> mkde: same
[09:59] <mkde> but now you're on the subject, how would i link to the kde userguide from the gnome one?
[09:59] <froud> I foresee some convergence of the two in the future
[09:59] <froud> Dont do it for now
[09:59] <froud> Soon we will have this capability
[09:59] <mkde> i think there is a fairly strong argument for not having separate ones but dealing with the specifics of each in one document
[09:59] <froud> using olinks
[10:00] <froud> mkde: agreed
[10:00] <froud> there will be
[10:00] <mkde> i'm just reading the section of the gnome userguide which talks about kde
[10:01] <froud> Yes, there will be content reuse
[10:01] <froud> and links between
[10:01] <mkde> hmm
[10:01] <k31th> oh i get it i dopwnload it to a dir in my home dir then edit the .xml with say gedit then send the patch when done ?
[10:02] <froud> eventually I forsse that we will have one file profiled
[10:02] <froud> k31th: :-)
[10:02] <k31th> brilliant 
[10:02] <froud> ;-) just just a pretty face
[10:02] <mkde> froud, is the userguide is an introductory book, i think ubuntu users should be told everything about kde too so that they can choose, and vice versa :)
[10:02] <k31th> i was thinking it was more comlicated than that
[10:02] <mkde> s/is/if
[10:02] <k31th> nice i can get started then
[10:03] <froud> mkde: up to you, what would you want to see and learn
[10:03] <froud> remember writing is an open ended process
[10:03] <froud> k31th: nah, easy stuff
[10:03] <froud> mkde: I leave it up to your good judgement
[10:03] <mkde> ok thanks
[10:03] <mkde> i'll need to learn about kubuntu first
[10:04] <froud> mkde: well you dont have to
[10:04] <froud> Just add comments
[10:04] <froud> <!-- Talk about Kubuntu here-->
[10:04] <k31th> froud: where is the online version i find it easyer to view
[10:04] <mkde> froud, yeah but i'd like to :)
[10:04] <froud> k31th: no online
[10:05] <froud> mkde: do you have lots of disk space?
[10:05] <mkde> froud, no, but enough for it
[10:05] <k31th> oh its not online i see
[10:05] <k31th> ok
[10:05] <froud> you can use qemu
[10:05] <k31th> that pwns 
[10:05] <mkde> froud, yes i was thinking about using qemu for breezy purposes
[10:06] <froud> k31th: transform it to html for viewing
[10:06] <froud> mkde: ;-)
[10:07] <mkde> is the kde userguide fairly advanced?
[10:07] <froud> k31th: you can also do yelp
[10:07] <froud> mkde: no
[10:08] <froud> kwick guide is doing well though
[10:08] <mkde> froud, *nods*
[10:09] <froud> mkde: you should take a look at the generic install guide
[10:09] <froud> this will give you an idea on how to do profiling
[10:09] <froud> you wont need it for gnome user guide
[10:10] <froud> but it is good to know
[10:10] <mkde> right
[10:10] <froud> oneday we will have a single file for kde and gnome
[10:10] <froud> profiled
[10:10] <mkde> that will be cool
[10:10] <froud> and for each platform
[10:10] <froud> but for now the whole profilingt thing is a bit much for people to digest
[10:11] <froud> same with outside links
[10:11] <froud> (between docs)
[10:11] <froud> so it is kept simple
[10:11] <froud> I plan to introduce glossary and biblio soon
[10:12] <froud> once people understand those mechanisms then I will push olinks
[10:12] <froud> and then profiles
[10:12] <froud> all of the above is not supported by yelp
[10:12] <froud> so the transform will be to html
[10:13] <froud> at which time we will add CSS
[10:13] <froud>  and some bling, with search and index features
[10:13] <froud> I know it is hard for people to visualize right now
[10:14] <mkde> cool
[10:14] <froud> but by not making yelp or khelpcenter our targets for viewing we open the whole power of docbook
[10:14] <mkde> sounds exciting
[10:15] <froud> in about three months from now people should begin to see the whole picture
[10:17] <froud> the more text, the better the picture will be :-)
[10:17] <froud> well I am off to bed, been a long day
[10:17] <froud> k31th: you ok now
[10:19] <mkde> night froud-away 
[10:19] <k31th> froud-away: i should be fine
[10:19] <froud-away> Ok
[10:19] <mkde> who is henry-meyerding?
[10:19] <k31th> when iv ate my tea ill make a start
[10:20] <froud> author who contributed dialup doc
[10:20] <mkde> oh yeah
[10:20] <froud> ok by
[10:20] <mkde> bye :)
[10:40] <k31th> dammit i have to go see some one tonihgt, whens the deadline for thiese docs ? i presume its asap
[10:42] <mkde> you have about 5 months
[10:42] <k31th> oh nice 
[10:42] <mkde> :)
[10:42] <k31th> so one night wont matter 
[10:42] <mkde> the work is kind of continuous
[10:42] <mkde> k31th, no not at all
[10:42] <k31th> thats great
[10:42] <k31th> well i will start it tonight 
[10:42] <k31th> probly around 11
[10:42] <k31th> i can do quite a bit from work tbh
[10:43] <k31th> they dont mind me using irc e-mails etc just so long the work is done 
[10:43] <mkde> awesome
[10:44] <k31th> yeah it is really 
[10:44] <k31th> good money to
[10:44] <mkde> magic
[10:44] <mkde> what do you do?
[10:44] <k31th> IT Technician / consultant 
[10:44] <mkde> cool
[10:44] <k31th> im only 20 mind so pay isunt ubba
[10:44] <k31th> you in US ?
[10:44] <mkde> uk
[10:45] <k31th> ah right kool same here
[10:45] <mkde> london
[10:45] <k31th> im on just under 16 k
[10:45] <k31th> so 15500 
[10:45] <mkde> pretty cool
[10:45] <mkde> where do you live?
[10:45] <k31th> which was better than before
[10:45] <k31th> onviously that would be fuck all for a london job
[10:46] <mkde> yeah its expensive here
[10:46] <k31th> but i live in melksham small town between bath and swindon 
[10:46] <mkde> gotcha
[10:46] <k31th> yeah we some contracts in london 
[10:46] <k31th> i have to go there some time
[10:46] <k31th> on that shitty tube
[10:46] <mkde> which one?
[10:46] <k31th> which tube
[10:47] <k31th> umm
[10:47] <mkde> the underground ya mean?
[10:47] <k31th> i get on at hanslow west and go to blac fiers ?
[10:47] <k31th> yeah
[10:47] <k31th> i hate it 
[10:47] <mkde> yeah that sucks
[10:47] <mkde> me too
[10:48] <mkde> its the only thing i really dislike about london
[10:48] <k31th> the first time i got on there i thought this is cool wat do people moan abut then we got passed the bankment and central london and it was full of stinking people breathing in my face 
[10:48] <mkde> heh
[10:48] <k31th> im there clinging onto mylaptop 
[10:48] <mkde> in rush hour its appalling
[10:48] <k31th> yeah terrible
[10:49] <k31th> i sit  (normally have to stand ina  fucking door way) i dont want to touch that bar its covered in skanky germs and mank lol
[10:49] <k31th> but it is the fastest way to get around im told
[10:49] <mkde> yeah its the only way i can get around
[10:49] <k31th> only good thing is
[10:49] <k31th> playing with bluetooth
[10:50] <k31th> and trying to spot fitt looking girls
[10:50] <mkde> heh
[10:50] <mkde> there are lots in london
[10:50] <mkde> due to the fact that there are lots of foreigners ;)
[10:51] <k31th> ha ha
[10:51] <k31th> yeah
[10:51] <k31th> LOADS
[10:51] <k31th> compared to round here
[10:52] <k31th> most of the london contracts i have setup vpns and VNC or RDP so i can do it remotly 
[10:52] <mkde> i can do without london tbh
[10:53] <k31th> mkde: wat you do for work
[10:53] <k31th> yeah it would fuck me off 
[10:53] <k31th> i could probly deal with the outskirts
[10:53] <mkde> i am at law school at the moment
[10:53] <mkde> start work in october
[10:53] <k31th> you have the  advantage of faster internet in london tho
[10:53] <mkde> heh
[10:53] <k31th> ah right kool
[10:54] <mkde> i'm on 250kbps pipex
[10:54] <k31th> im only on 2mbps here 
[10:54] <mkde> only...
[10:54] <k31th> download ?
[10:54] <mkde> poor sod lol
[10:54] <mkde> yes 250/128
[10:54] <k31th> how much you pay 
[10:54] <mkde> 15 quid or so
[10:54] <k31th> not bad
[10:54] <k31th> i pay 25 quid
[10:54] <k31th> on nildram
[10:54] <mkde> pipex are pretty nice
[10:54] <mkde> i like em
[10:55] <k31th> 50gig cap a month but unlimited offpeak
[10:55] <mkde> not the best price, but there is no cable here
[10:55] <k31th> im pretty sure pipex and nildram are same routing
[10:55] <k31th> do a traceroute to jolt.co.uk if its 3 or 4 hops its the same
[10:56] <k31th> currently im logged into a box in the telhouse london :p
[10:56] <k31th> its where i run my irc to 
[10:56] <mkde> where is that?
[10:56] <k31th> Irssi uptime: 66d 9h 32m 23s
[10:57] <k31th> mkde: do you know where docklands is
[10:57] <mkde> i live there
[10:57] <k31th> its there lol
[10:57] <mkde> telhouse rings a bell...
[10:57] <k31th> iv been to ISPs in docklands as well
[10:57] <mkde> 7 hops to jolt.co.uk from here
[10:57] <k31th> Frontier net & anoutherone some where else
[10:57] <k31th> Mistral
[10:57] <k31th> mkde: different routing then
[10:57] <mkde> not sure
[10:58] <k31th> right ill be back in an hour or so
[10:58] <mkde> ok have fun
[10:58] <mkde> welcome to the team
[10:58] <k31th> going down the pub
[10:58] <k31th> thanks :D
[11:01] <mkde> switching out on this box