[12:17] Burgundavia: Also, from the Bugzilla-mind-trips dept.: Don't report bugs of the form "X should be more like Y" [12:18] mpt, yes, I realised taht after I submitted it [12:19] Instead, "Make X N", where N = {simpler, more consistent, more obvious, more efficient ...} [12:20] I take the advice of a master then === Burgundavia wonders how many bug reports has mpt filed [12:39] Burgundavia, still here? [12:39] yep [12:40] mdke, what do you need? [12:40] are you following that thread started by henrik? [12:40] yes, but I haven't responded yet [12:40] any thoughts? [12:40] I like the idea of seperate wikis [12:40] my impression is that he is moving a little fast [12:40] i think he should do [12:41] we have lots of time to sort of the fallout [12:41] hmm [12:41] i thought the idea of using a wiki as a portal had been ruled out [12:42] hmm [12:42] i agree moving fast is good, but if the fallout is gonna be massive, and keeping the various wikis in sync is gonna be a huge task, we need to make sure its gonna work [12:43] Burgundavia: About 600, I think [12:43] mpt, geez [12:43] thats a lot === mpt has another go at checking out ubuntu-docs [12:43] mpt, not working? [12:43] mdke: the separate wiki suggestion is more technical-solution-to-social problem mucking around [12:43] morning jdub [12:44] mdke: splitting wikis is worse than splitting mailing lists [12:44] Not nearly as much as some people [12:44] jdub, sorry i don't get what you mean [12:44] mpt, i mean, is the checkout not working? [12:44] jdub, I like the idea of the acl for some docs [12:44] jdub, what is "technical-solution-to-social problem mucking around"? [12:44] mdke: Yes, it's working fine, I just didn't get it finished last night before I had to go offline [12:45] not being allow to move such important pages as RootSudo is very good [12:45] mpt, ok cool [12:45] Burgundavia: the wiki is a place for collaborative authoring, not "documentation" [12:45] jdub, they we need to be more proactive at moving stuff to static web pages [12:45] jdub, you had better voice your opinion on that thread because it looks like henrik is moving quite quickly with his ideas, unless i've got the wrong end of the stick [12:45] Burgundavia, ++ [12:46] Burgundavia, to a certain extent, moving wiki stuff to our docs can be done in the existing system tho [12:46] yes [12:46] well there is to ways to do it: [12:46] its just a question of putting in the time [12:46] mdke: i'm writing a response to that, and a lengthier email about good stuff for the doc team to be doing [12:46] 1. keep the stuff in the wiki, and apply a no-move/delete acl to it [12:46] 2. move it out of the wiki [12:47] that is for short things we have written that we wish to keep on the web [12:47] like RootSudo [12:47] jdub, i'll just sit back and observe, in the meantime the wiki transition can get done anyway, its a separate issue really [12:47] Burgundavia, + [12:47] why don't we transition straight wiki to wiki, and the start talking about fancy crap like acls [12:47] hmm [12:48] becuase the wiki --> wiki transition is going to bring bugs we are going to need to fix [12:48] what do you mean? [12:48] transfer of zwiki to moinmoin? [12:48] yes [12:48] but that will happen anyway [12:49] yes, that is what I am saying [12:49] but the issues that will occur are gonna be separate aren't they? [12:49] lets do the transitition, and then start talking about the new stuff to make our lives easier [12:49] ya [12:51] ok i'm gonna do the washing up and get ready for bed and look forward to jeff's mails [01:02] mdke, see the list [01:02] will do [01:03] good stuff [01:04] i am still boggled by the question: canonical are funding a fantastic translation interface, why not a documentation interface [01:04] no idea [01:04] that is a question for the long term obviously [01:05] maybe we will get an answer during this debate tho [01:06] we already have an answer from jdub, and that is that we don't need it [01:06] launchpad is not only about "we" tho [01:06] I still think we do, but we can postpone the decision [01:07] launchpad is python [01:07] the suggested interface was java [01:07] you misunderstand me i think [01:07] mdke: because translation is ready for that kind of scalability [01:07] i'm not talking really about the current portal debate, more generally [01:08] mdke: and is worth investing in for that scalability :) [01:08] jdub, i see that [01:08] you are talking a doc portal in general [01:08] my knowledge of launchpad is minimal, but isn't it the case that there are no good web interfaces for documentation? on the other hand there are lots of bug interfaces, but that hasn't stopped development of malone [01:09] is malone "needed"? [01:09] malone is meta bug tracker [01:09] no, but its a long term investment [01:09] and bug tracker of bug trackers [01:09] neither is rosetta "need" [01:09] mdke: documentors are quite a different set of people to translators [01:09] jdub, sure, ditto bug reporters [01:09] mdke: translation has come very far, now we can scale it out significantly with a "mum can use it" interface [01:09] *grins* [01:10] i'd like to see my mum use rosetta, but i take your point [01:10] documentation tends to be the forgotten child [01:10] mdke: hey, when it's released... [01:10] launchpad is very very cool [01:10] jdub, yeah just ribbing, i use rosetta [01:10] mdke: malone is a different kettle again; we're aiming for massive upstream/downstream/crossstream collaboration [01:10] jdub, same with rosetta no? [01:11] yes [01:11] a doc portal would need to take into account getting upstreams involved [01:11] but differently [01:11] why not documentation too? [01:11] mdke: because it doesn't have that scale [01:11] "everyone" needs to do translations, "everyone" can report bugs [01:11] in terms of contribution? [01:12] hmm [01:12] interesting [01:12] writing documentation (which is not the most important part of what the doc team should be doing) is very hard, and very hard to scale [01:12] that is why most current docs suck, and are out of date [01:12] but there are ways of making it better, and involving people [01:12] jdub, i guess that's a little bit a matter of opinion, some would say that the more people get involved, the better quality comes out [01:12] and i've got a little faux-timeline for doing it [01:13] mdke: i think that's pure poppycock :-) [01:13] I think the best way is to start with some sort of web stuff, and scale the technology as need [01:13] mdke: more people == cacophony, not clarity :-) [01:13] well its the idea behind a lot of free speech theory right? [01:13] basically to start, you need a readonly, where are the holes, interface [01:15] anyhow === mdke drags himself back down to earth === Burgundavia curses that mediawiki is php [01:17] *grins* [01:17] the best wiki engine out there, bar none === mdke points at the forum [01:18] there is always the "let's use php anyway" idea [01:18] can of worms maybe [01:18] not hosted on canonical servers [01:18] thats my point [01:19] there was talk of hosting the portal off canonical servesr [01:19] which may still be an option [01:19] I would like to explore it [01:20] that's what i am getting at [01:20] that is how we got svn on the servers [01:20] *grins* [01:20] it got setup and hosted offsite [01:20] you'll never get php on in the same way [01:20] but still [01:20] no, but I might be java on [01:21] that didn't make sense [01:21] *laughs* [01:21] but java may be acceptable [01:21] still it would involve a separate wiki [01:21] bit annoying [01:22] not really [01:22] guys, "php" is not the problem [01:22] I think that mediawiki, as an app is pretty security tested [01:22] we've chosen moin [01:23] sure [01:23] for the ubuntu wiki [01:24] jdub, we have helped a lot with the possible transition, and have never questioned the choice [01:24] and we're not doing so now [01:25] but we are just playing around with our ideas for a docteam portal [01:25] docteam doesn't need a 'portal' dude [01:26] you've said that [01:26] jdub, we realise your opinion [01:26] but its a free channel [01:26] and I respect it [01:26] we are just talking [01:26] I just don't completely agree with it [01:27] that's because it looks like a bastion of direction in a directionless project :) [01:27] right [01:27] well, nobody is providing direction until now [01:27] well i think the main attraction is of involving more people [01:27] mdke: right, but it won't [01:27] and removing the massive contribution barrier [01:27] here's why [01:28] - real documentation is hard, having a web way of writing docbook doesn't increase the quality or ability to write documentation [01:28] - adding more people to a project with no direction makes it much harder to go anywhere or get anything done [01:28] jdub, of course it is hard, but there are people around who have the skills and don't have the skills of writing docbook [01:28] xml [01:29] - writing new documentation is a red herring, and not a hugely important part of what the docteam should be doing right now [01:29] mdke: a 'web portal' won't help them anyway [01:29] jdub, go on [01:29] that's the summary of my points [01:29] i mean, why won't it [01:30] because unless the web application is extraordinarily good, and abstracts away the whole "writing docbook" issue, they'll still be writing docbook, they'll still have to know what it is, how it works [01:30] having a web interface doesn't magically make things less complicated [01:31] besides, there is *no point* scaling doc team at the moment [01:31] what does scaling mean? [01:31] making bigger, ie., bringing on more contributors [01:31] ah [01:32] well you would agree that the documentation with Ubuntu is pitiful? [01:32] no [01:32] not at all [01:32] underexposed? yes. [01:32] lacking analysis and integration? yes. [01:32] my opinion on having a look at the local docs in yelp is that it is pitiful [01:33] considering that Ubuntu's emphasis is on being user friendly [01:33] the solution to that is *not* writing new documentation [01:34] ok [01:35] well it is clear that you have a vision of what the solution is, so I will wait for your email before pestering further in here === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-82.dsl.clear.net.nz] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === _froud_ [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:48] right i gtg to bed [01:48] catch you all later [01:59] cya === Liz [~Liz@fixed-203-87-27-63.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:04] salut liz [02:04] kia ora Burgundavia [02:04] :) [02:06] Burgundavia, did you get unable to authenticate for the new updates on hoary? === Burgundavia is running breezy [02:07] already?..didnt think it was stable enough for that [02:07] im going to have to upgrade again before the next upgrade [02:11] breezy is very not stable [02:11] I just like my latest crack [03:16] ok..gotta go shopping...bbl === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-117.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.241.41] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:26] hey hey === sm [~simon@lsanca1-ar5-4-60-051-162.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === _froud_ is now known as froud === froud finishes checking email [07:46] morning, African Greetings === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:49] grrr crappy router [07:49] hi [07:51] woof [07:52] foo [07:52] now what animal goes foo [07:52] froud, you feeling well today? [07:52] I always feel well [07:52] i just arrived after attending this useless isms seminar [07:52] except when I am sick [07:52] isms? [07:52] i dunno if you're familiar with BS 7799 [07:53] BS 7799 [07:53] "Information Security Management System" [07:53] Ah business continuity planning:-) [07:53] yes I am familiar [07:54] caves your head in [07:54] you think its worth it? [07:54] The concept, yes [07:54] if you dont have it you should [07:55] I say that if you are in a large organization [07:55] oh yeah if you're large indeed [07:55] security management is key to business continuity [07:55] For a small business, it's overkill [07:56] so cut down to just what you need [07:57] i dont get it nobody reacted to my email (not that its bad) i guess its too technical? [07:57] which email [07:57] Observations in packaged Ubuntu Documentation (Hoary) [07:57] the yelp/scrollkeeper thing [07:58] I explained my position to you yesterday morning [07:58] oh right [07:58] i forgot [07:59] jsgotangco: I don't know why people don't just take my idea of scrapping yelp for our docs [08:00] we dont need yelp/scrollkeeper to deliver help [08:00] its taboo for gnome! heh [08:00] to much religion dude [08:00] not enough lateral thinking [08:00] i don't mind the yelp/scrollkeeper thing but it really needs to be cleaned [08:00] amazes me how in the box people think [08:01] jsgotangco: yelp cant support a large number of requirements [08:01] glossterms would be a start [08:01] bibliography refs another [08:02] yes bibliography [08:02] XInclude/XPointer the next [08:02] customization [08:02] search [08:02] isnt xpointer very basic to be missed [08:02] not if you have xi:fallback [08:03] and if we want to use vendor drops, it will become a must [08:08] jsgotangco: but you know, I am just doing my thing [08:09] its understandable but in my opinion its not so bad [08:10] actually I was thinking, that perhaps I should not discuss these things, just go ahead and do it and then say to people here it is, like it or love it [08:10] some people believe we've done a good job [08:10] seems when we discuss stuff that people get hooked on the technical stuff and not writing [08:10] so like i said its not so bad after all [08:11] despte the tools (or the lack of it) that we have [08:11] no, not bad at all [08:11] but many of us know it can be better [08:12] but each time we discuss matters, we get bogged down [08:12] heh i remember a few months before hoary [08:12] we're all busy and stuff heh [08:12] so I figure, just do it and then show it [08:12] yeah [08:13] anyway, I just dont want to get side tracked. If others want to, that is their baby [08:13] for me I just hack the src [08:13] those that join are welcome [08:13] over time, the src will win, not wiki [08:13] yeah we seem to be more productive that way [08:13] yep [08:13] far more [08:14] http://lwn.net/Articles/135484/ [08:14] luke use the src [08:14] heh [08:15] yes seen that [08:15] but people here dont want a steering committee [08:16] I suggested this route sometime back, and got bitch slapped [08:16] just thought I would mention it [08:16] sent to the list as well [08:16] no no good to know others know ofthese thing [08:16] good on you [08:16] notice, the head of the steering committe is a RH employee [08:16] yeah, that is exepect [08:16] expected [08:16] doc bounty? [08:17] I offered management and steering for a retainer, but that was ingnored like mostthings are [08:17] anyway, dont want to get depressing [08:18] Burgundavia: I starting fixing the dialup doc [08:18] still need a few more patches [08:18] and need to make it ISP neutral [08:18] froud, is the dial up doc good enough for testing for DialUpSupport BOF [08:18] Yeah, not bad at all [08:19] amu and I pulled some stuff from it but i haven't really tested yet [08:19] beause amu started a dialupresearch [08:19] Burgundavia: the TCP/IP configure part of the install guide is at first draft [08:20] jsgotangco: yeah saw that [08:20] I will publish that doc over at kubuntu.org [08:20] and the kubuntu install doc, soon [08:20] just got to do the disk partioning stuff [08:21] and maybe the install without media doc to be integrated [08:21] oh shucks, I lost the link to that [08:21] Burgundavia: do you have the link it it [08:21] jsgotangco: hows the kwicj guide going [08:21] which link? [08:22] there was a doc about installing without cd or floppy [08:22] ah [08:22] hmmm kwickguide is almost done and will just need screenshots [08:22] but im not putting screenshots yet [08:22] OK, so you will be ready for checking collaboration soon [08:23] promise I will look at it this weekend, OK [08:23] no problem with me as long as PDA Support doesn't eat up most of my time (i dont think so) [08:23] ok [08:23] froud, http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html [08:24] see how much more productive we are when we focus on svn [08:24] Burgundavia: thanks [08:24] bah infrastructure "claptrap" === jsgotangco winks at Burgundavia [08:24] Burgundavia: did you port it to xml? [08:25] about half done === froud just loves this "Control-Escape. A gentle introduction to migrating to Linux for newcomers." [08:26] Burgundavia: want me to do a checkin [08:26] let me find it [08:26] froud, what do you use for editing docbook anyway [08:26] Oxygen XML Editor [08:26] ooohhhhhhh [08:26] I wrote the book and helped on the dev so I am biased [08:28] but i do think it is the best [08:28] of cours eit is JAVA [08:29] JAVA [08:29] JAVA [08:29] JAVA [08:29] JAVA === jsgotangco likes to be biased as well [08:29] ;-) [08:30] my eyes! my eyes! [08:31] wiki is so evil on the sidelines people just bow to it [08:31] wiki is cool when used for the purpose it was intened [08:33] yeah but some think it can fix everything [08:33] Burgundavia: send me the xml file, I will check it in and hack some more on it [08:33] Burgundavia: what did we agree, to add it to the generic installation guide, right? [08:34] anyone know how good screem is for docbook? [08:34] screem? [08:34] url [08:35] jsgotangco, bluefish works well, and is more mature [08:35] www.screem.org [08:35] i want to compare im still partial to kate [08:36] ouch there xml transformation has poor encoding [08:36] jsgotangco: you can try Morphon [08:36] it is JAVA [08:37] JAVA [08:37] JAVA [08:37] JAVA [08:37] blasphemer! [08:37] http://www.morphon.com/ [08:37] http://www.morphon.com/ [08:37] http://www.morphon.com/ [08:37] http://www.morphon.com/ [08:38] blasphemy [08:38] love it [08:38] i used to run xmlspy for rosettanet projects [08:38] its quite good [08:38] nice for data orientated docs [08:39] but that is Windows [08:39] Windows [08:39] Windows [08:39] Windows [08:39] its not so bad [08:39] no very good for data docs [08:39] not doc docs [08:40] hmm [08:40] hold on [08:40] brb === froud goes on school run === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.185] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:55] work starts, c ya, Burgundavia send me the file === froud is now known as froud-work [09:47] ang dami kong email [09:48] ooppss wrong chan [09:51] this is crazy my apps dont work [09:51] grr [09:51] nautilus wont run either [09:51] arggh [09:54] wtf is wrong with this [09:54] bbl === mdke wakes up === mdke checks email === mdke lumbers off to have a shower === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:27] enrico! [10:27] Hi! [10:27] long time no see man [10:27] been quite busy [10:28] morning guys [10:28] I tend to be on IRC only in case of need, recently [10:28] enrico, got a minute? [10:28] yes [10:28] its with the existing gnome docs and scrollkeeper [10:29] is it possible to clean up those [10:33] what do you mean clean up? [10:34] http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-May/002230.html [10:36] about the ordering in Yelp, that's tricky to do. I remember jdub worked on having our documents displayed there at all, maybe he can manage to do some reordering for breezy [10:36] Point #2 is likewise [10:36] (sounds like a yelp bug) [10:37] it is [10:37] :( [10:38] fixing or improving existing documentation would be very nice [10:38] especially if such improvements can be contributed upstream as well [10:38] yeah theres too much info its kinda hardto ignore [10:38] in the past we tried to see if there was an easy way of doing it, and we failed [10:39] (the idea was that one should spend time mainly in fixing the docs rather than in figuring out how to checkout the thing and submit the patch upstream) [10:39] That does not mean that there isn't a way of doing it now [10:40] no, any is fixable [10:40] The problem is finding it. The way I see of doing it is to involve Sean and some of the devels in finding out how to do this [10:40] just that it is a distraction [10:40]