[09:59] <bradb> MOTU Malone meeting in 2 mins!
[10:00] <bradb> ding ding ding!
[10:00] <bradb> right, who's here then?
[10:00] <dholbach> woohoo!"
[10:00] <robitaille> dong dong dong
[10:00] <bradb> (that's participating in the Malone MOTU meeting)
[10:00] <dholbach> hey BjornT 
[10:00] <BjornT> hi
[10:01] <ogra> hi
[10:01] <ogra> robitaille, hey
[10:01] <bradb> ogra, robitaille, BjornT, dholbach. who else is in for this meeting?
[10:01] <dholbach> shall we use http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaloneUniverseWishList for a general overview?
[10:01] <bradb> dholbach: that's what i'm looking at right now
[10:02] <bradb> right, let's get started then
[10:02] <bradb> there are at least two things on the agenda
[10:02] <bradb> 1. a report from the field (i.e. you guys, users of Malone)
[10:03] <bradb> 2. a plan forward to try to give us an idea of the most critical issues that need solving soonest
[10:03] <bradb> are there other things you guys want to add?
[10:03] <dholbach> no... fine with me
[10:04] <ajmitch_> morning
[10:04] <dholbach> hey ajmitch_ 
[10:04] <bradb> ok...we'll try and keep this down to half an hour or less. all we need is enough to move forward for the next week or two, based on what's making it hurt the most for you guys
[10:05] <bradb> so, #1 then, who wants to give me a summary of MOTU's experience on malone up to now? :)
[10:05] <bradb> how's it been going? have you been using it a lot?
[10:05] <bradb> is anyone saying they absolutely can /not/ use Malone right now on the MOTU team, because feature XYZ is missing?
[10:06] <herve> I've used it two weeks ago
[10:06] <dholbach> some "views" on bugs dont work
[10:06] <herve> I managed to go throught it
[10:06] <bradb> seb128!
[10:06] <dholbach> thanks seb128 
[10:06] <seb128> hi
[10:07] <herve> but found several traps
[10:07] <bradb> salut
[10:07] <seb128> sorry I've forgotten
[10:07] <herve> hi seb128 
[10:07] <seb128> so, what's up? :)
[10:07] <dholbach> all the "views" on the bug list show the same list
[10:07] <ogra> bradb, searching in distribution bugs doesnt work, thats one of the most essential things i think
[10:07] <bradb> 8 pages of new or accepted bugs, it looks like...good to see that some people are using it then...
[10:07] <bradb> ogra: yep, i'm fixing that right this minute :)
[10:07] <ogra> yeah :)
[10:08] <dholbach> namely   unassigned . my todo list . critical  . submitted by me  
[10:08] <bradb> huge cleanup/fixing
[10:08] <bradb> dholbach: yep, i'm fixing those links right now too
[10:08] <seb128> dholbach: that uses the search, no?
[10:08] <ogra> yep
[10:08] <ogra> looks like
[10:08] <bradb> yeah
[10:09] <herve> bradb, one of the main problem to me, is you have to click many times to navigate throught malone
[10:09] <bradb> so don't worry about that. that'll be done as soon as i finish it. it's my top priority right now.
[10:09] <bradb> wait, one sec.
[10:09] <bradb> have you guys got your team all setup properly now?
[10:09] <dholbach> "back to list" would be great, in accordance to what herve said
[10:09] <dholbach> making teams isnt your "resort", bradb, right?
[10:09] <bradb> with everybody in the team that needs to be in the team and a sane email address to which notifications for the team will be sent?
[10:09] <ogra> nope, its ours...
[10:10] <dholbach> ogra: launchpad-wise of course
[10:10] <dholbach> ogra: interface-wise
[10:10] <ogra> sure, but i admit i was lazy and dint add everyone to the MOTU team
[10:10] <bradb> if they haven't whined, perhaps it doesn't matter
[10:10] <ogra> heh
[10:10] <ogra> it does, for us ;)
[10:11] <bradb> i wonder if you guys want a mailing list specific to universe bugs
[10:11] <dholbach> how can i set a mail adress for a team?
[10:11] <bradb> which could then of course be the email of the team in Malone
[10:11] <herve> that's ubuntu-users, no? :-)
[10:11] <ogra> herve, no, thats the past ;)
[10:11] <bradb> herve: if it isn't, then that should be the email address of the team...but eh, you probably don't want that. :)
[10:11] <bradb> if it *is*, i meant
[10:12] <seb128> is this meeting a random suggestion mixed one? or is that a plan or something?
[10:12] <dholbach> i can't see the mail adress thingie for a team
[10:13] <bradb> seb128: 
[10:13] <bradb> [16:02]  <bradb> 1. a report from the field (i.e. you guys, users of Malone)
[10:13] <bradb> [16:03]  <bradb> 2. a plan forward to try to give us an idea of the most critical issues that need solving soonest
[10:13] <dholbach> seb128: we currently name the most annoying things
[10:13] <seb128> k
[10:13] <bradb> the first thing i wanted to focus on was talking about how you're using Malone right now, including making sure you're setup correctly re: the MOTU team in Malone
[10:14] <bradb> dholbach, ogra: do you want to have a mailing list setup specifically for universe bugs? do you need one?
[10:14] <dholbach> i used it to assign bugs to teams, closed some fixed bugs
[10:14] <seb128> - no way to get the lists of bug from the list of comments
[10:14] <seb128> - no way to edit the bug from the comments
[10:14] <seb128> - no way to comment when editing the bug
[10:14] <seb128> - no way to assign a bug when submitting it
[10:14] <seb128> that's my list :)
[10:14] <ogra> i guess it would be best now to have a ML
[10:15] <dholbach> jdub has already planned some lists we will need
[10:15] <ogra> since we cant set up this list in malone itself for a team...
[10:15] <bradb> dholbach: was an MOTU bug list one of them?
[10:15] <dholbach> seb128: did he mention ubuntu-bugs-universe?
[10:15] <bradb> ogra: Malone's not mailman, so no, you can't :)
[10:16] <ogra> then we'll need a list..
[10:16] <bradb> ogra: you can set the email of the team though
[10:16] <dholbach> bradb: where?
[10:16] <ogra> not on "edit team details"
[10:16] <dholbach> bradb: i have the gnome team's page open right now
[10:16] <bradb> it might be something the owner has to do
[10:16] <dholbach> i am the owner
[10:17] <ogra> i have the MOTU page open, there is no field for email (i'm the owner)
[10:17] <seb128> dholbach: nop, but was not an easy discussion :)
[10:17] <bradb> dholbach: it's not available to you in edit team details/
[10:17] <ogra> nope
[10:17] <dholbach> +addmail and +addemail didnt work, i tried that ;-)
[10:17] <ogra> heh
[10:17] <bradb> ugh
[10:18] <bradb> i'll look into this while the meeting continues
[10:18] <ogra> bradb, but launchpad has all our mailadresses....
[10:18] <bradb> sure
[10:18] <bradb> there's a bit of a problem here to getting you guys useful notifications too...
[10:19] <ogra> we shuldnt need a team mailadress, even if its not mailman, it coud send to all members of the team
[10:19] <bradb> we need all the MOTU source packages to have the MOTU team set as maintainers, ATM :/
[10:19] <ogra> ugh
[10:19] <ogra> 15000 packages....
[10:19] <dholbach> emails! :-)
[10:19] <seb128> bradb: how do we set the QA and assigned for a package?
[10:20] <ogra> can't we bounty someone to enter them all ?
[10:20] <ogra> thats a lot of typing and clicking :)
[10:20] <bradb> ogra: i'll make a note to talk to mark about this, so you guys can be properly setup to get sane notifications sent to an appropriate email address (or, possibly, addresses)
[10:21] <dholbach> bradb: multiple adresses would be cool
[10:21] <bradb> anything else we need to cover about the logistics of you guys using Malone?
[10:21] <dholbach> because we will have overlapping subsets of packages
[10:21] <bradb> (for point #1...before we get into the part about where malone sucks :)
[10:21] <bradb> anyone having problems logging in or getting their account sorted?
[10:21] <tseng|work> dude.. malone is totally shithouse
[10:22] <bradb> anyone here who's meant to use malone but hasn't yet?
[10:22] <tseng|work> (jk :P)
[10:22] <dholbach> tseng|work: calm yourself a bit
[10:22] <dholbach> for 43 people in here... it's a bit calm
[10:22] <bradb> ok, let's move on then :)
[10:23] <Treenaks> bradb: I haven't used it yet.. haven't had time
[10:23] <bradb> let's go through the biggest pains you guys are experiencing with Malone. i need enough feedback to guide BjornT and me for the next week or two, but no more
[10:23] <ogra> bradb, err, the bounty thing was a joke...
[10:23] <bradb> Treenaks: will you try it out this week perhaps?
[10:23] <seb128> bradb: is there any meeting scheduled about main maintainers/malone?
[10:23] <bradb> ogra: i know :)
[10:23] <Treenaks> bradb: uh, I could make some time this weekend
[10:23] <ogra> phew
[10:23] <bradb> ogra: talking to sabdfl about it wasn't a joke though :)
[10:23] <ogra> heh
[10:23] <ogra> ok
[10:23] <bradb> we really need to get that sorted for you guys, or you won't even get bug notifications
[10:24] <bradb> in some way shape or form
[10:24] <dholbach> the search/assigned thing is the most important i think, a "back to list" would be VERY handy, that's how i feel
[10:24] <ogra> cant you just script the import of a packagelist ?
[10:24] <bradb> seb128: not currently, but you can vent here :)
[10:24] <bradb> ogra: they're already doing that, afaik
[10:24] <seb128> bradb: yeah, but that's too noisy I think :)
[10:25] <ogra> ah, ok
[10:25] <seb128> bradb: and we probably don't have the same concern as universe guys
[10:25] <bradb> ajmitch_: will you make a point of giving it a shot over the next week or so a bit?
[10:25] <dholbach> seb128: tell us about your worries... :-)
[10:25] <dholbach> seb128: you will be customer #1 for it
[10:25] <seb128> yeah, I know ... but don't want to grab the focus
[10:26] <ajmitch_> bradb: yes, I'll try & squeeze it in there
[10:26] <ogra> lol
[10:26] <seb128> that's a motu meeting
[10:26] <tseng|work> i noticed the other day when i was not logged in and tried to comment, then was told to log in... crash
[10:26] <seb128> not a desktop team one
[10:26] <herve> no, that's a malone meeting?
[10:26] <tseng|work> ill try to verify that
[10:26] <dholbach> seb128: you're too gracious :-)
[10:26] <bradb> good. /me makes a point of bugging Treenaks and ajmitch_ at the next meeting about what they like and don't like about Malone.
[10:26] <Treenaks> OK :)
[10:27] <dholbach> Treenaks, ajmitch_: you're scratchpad is ready: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaloneUniverseWishList
[10:27] <bradb> seb128: you're the only one who's given specific feedback so far in this meeting about what sucks about Malone?
[10:27] <tseng|work> ok.. searching for "f-spot" on the ubuntu distro bugs page is not working also
[10:27] <tseng|work> sorry im not sure what are already "known issues"
[10:28] <ogra> thats one
[10:28] <seb128> bradb: dunno, I've not really read everything
[10:28] <seb128> I've completed my list
[10:28] <seb128> I've 6 points now :)
[10:28] <bradb> tseng|work: pretty much everything people tell me are problems we know about. :) the key is, what are the things /most/ hindering you guys?
[10:28] <seb128> let me know when that's time for that
[10:28] <herve> bradb, searching!
[10:28] <tseng|work> well going to search there and having nothing happen
[10:28] <herve> by package, people, status...
[10:28] <tseng|work> and clicking advanced and having it fail..
[10:28] <bradb> herve: i already mentioned that i'm fixing that as we speak
[10:29] <tseng|work> thats pretty suck, i sthere osmewhere I can hav ea wokring saerch?
[10:29] <herve> bradb, you mean advanced search like "what are all my pending upload bugs?" ?
[10:29] <tseng|work> gr lag
[10:29] <herve> tseng|work, brain lag? :-)
[10:29] <bradb> herve: yeah, my next merge is what will fix that.
[10:29] <herve> rock!
[10:30] <dholbach> having 100 bugs/tasks per page would be great :-)
[10:30] <tseng|work> client lag, I cant see what im typing
[10:30] <bradb> let's keep focussed here dudes. if noone has any specific problems to report then i'll throw the mic over to seb128 and see what's on his mind.
[10:30] <bradb> in 3
[10:30] <bradb> 2
[10:30] <tseng|work> well I think we are saying, if I cant search or get a page of my own bugs
[10:30] <herve> bradb, 
[10:30] <tseng|work> I'll never keep track of them
[10:30] <herve> subscribing oneself easily 
[10:31] <dholbach> tseng|work: searching will be fixed asap
[10:31] <seb128> should I copy my list here? :)
[10:31] <herve> without having to type its name each time
[10:31] <tseng|work> ok.
[10:31] <bradb> tseng|work: dude, i've already addressed that point :) let's keep moving forward here.
[10:31] <herve> and being also to remove too
[10:31] <seb128> one sec, I just sort it
[10:31] <bradb> cool
[10:31] <bradb> herve: yes, good point
[10:32] <bradb> herve: but is it really critical? probably not.
[10:32] <herve> bradb, time wasting? ok I'm picky :-)
[10:32] <dholbach> bradb: what do you think about a "back to list" link?
[10:32] <herve> navigation would be more important
[10:32] <bradb> i mean, you're the users, you tell me, but it doesn't seem to me that having to type one's name to sub to a bug is a critical issue for the time being, IMHO
[10:32] <herve> like getting from a report back to the list
[10:32] <bradb> herve: yes, absolutely. the nav sucks.
[10:33] <herve> another confusing thing
[10:33] <bradb> herve: ok, on that point (we'll get to you seb128...very soon.. :)
[10:33] <herve> there are bugs and tasks with different numbers
[10:33] <bradb> herve: YES!
[10:33] <herve> someone said #123
[10:33] <herve> and I was searching for non existent bug 123 :-) 
[10:34] <bradb> i really, really, really need to convince sabdfl that virtually every Malone user has screamed about the problem of having two IDs for what the user thinks is the same thing
[10:34] <bradb> thus far, i've not been permitted to fix that in the way that i want, which is to completely hide the "task" ID altogether
[10:34] <bradb> herve: i'm glad you mention this though, because i log all IRC conversation, so it gives me more ammo for the sab :)
[10:35] <bradb> ok, so one thing
[10:35] <bradb> interesting that nobody's mentioned the assigned report yet
[10:35] <bradb> anyone even using that?
[10:36] <herve> don't remember it
[10:36] <bradb> that was about to be the next thing i set in my sights to fix, but it doesn't seem to be the thing users currently complain much about, because nobody even cares enough to use it, apparently
[10:36] <koke> bradb: I've tried
 all the "views" on the bug list show the same list    ---   <dholbach> namely   unassigned . my todo list . critical  . submitted by me  
[10:36] <\sh> g'evening
[10:36] <koke> but until yesterday it crashed with a system error
[10:36] <dholbach> and point 23 on the wiki page:  "https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/assigned?name=<ID> seems broken atm"
[10:36] <bradb> dholbach: that's part of the searching, and as i noted earlier, i'm fixing those links :)
[10:37] <dholbach> i thought you were talking about this, when you said "assigned report"
[10:37] <bradb> yes, i think SteveA's done a fix to fix that bug in the assigned report
[10:37] <dholbach> i've tried to use it
[10:37] <dholbach> it worked at UDU
[10:37] <herve> bradb, a wishlist: from any page, click the login link, log in, then you get redirected to the previous page
[10:37] <dholbach> herve++
[10:38] <ogra> yeah
[10:38] <dholbach> but that's part of "navigation", i presume?
[10:38] <bradb> dholbach: that link worked for me just now
[10:38] <herve> dholbach, navigation is a very global term
[10:38] <herve> I would mean the breadcrumbs too
[10:38] <dholbach> bradb: it gave me system errors
[10:38] <dholbach> now it works again
[10:39] <bradb> herve: yep, very good point there too...the login has gotten quite a bit better lately (which you might have noticed if using LP a lot, but maybe not if you only use it a bit), but definitely has a bit of a way to go yet to work the way most people expect
[10:39] <dholbach> herve: i know, but bradb acknowledged that "navigation sucks" (his words)
[10:39] <bradb> yes, my words :)
[10:39] <koke> bradb: I have 9 things in a tomboy note about disturbing behaviours I've observed since 2 days ago
[10:39] <koke> but, I think most are not *high* priority items
[10:40] <seb128> let's focus on high priority?
[10:40] <bradb> if they're minor things, you can email them to me: brad.bollenbach@ubuntu.com.
[10:40] <seb128> malone needs to be usuable soon
[10:40] <seb128> not to have a ton of cool features
[10:40] <ogra> fonts !
[10:40] <ogra> *g*
[10:40] <seb128> :(
[10:40] <herve> bradb, I checked my assigned page, the links seem to be some javascript... you should get tortured for that!! :-)
[10:40] <koke> seb128: most are usability things but not as urgent as "search"
[10:40] <koke> :D
[10:40] <dholbach> seb128: go ahead with your list
[10:40] <bradb> i've taken notes of what you guys have said so far...does anyone have any other high priority items that we should discuss right now, or should i hand the mic to seb128?
[10:41] <bradb> ok, seb128, go for it
[10:41] <seb128> 1- no way to comment on the bug when you edit it
[10:41] <seb128> 2- clicking on bug from the list should open the bug description, not the bug edition
[10:41] <seb128> 3- no way to go from the comments to the bug edition?
[10:41] <seb128> 4- no way to go from the comments to the list of bugs?
[10:41] <seb128> 5- no way to assign a bug when submitting it
[10:41] <seb128> 6- don't send mail to the guy doing the change
[10:41] <seb128> 7- custom lists of bugs
[10:41] <koke> 2++ :)
[10:41] <ogra> yep
[10:41] <bradb> seven points...gimme a minute to copy paste and absorb :)
[10:41] <seb128> let's take that by order maybe?
[10:41] <koke> I had it as "- Bug list pointing to bugs, not tasks (or more info in tasks page)"
[10:42] <bradb> seb128: let's start by classifying them. we'll ignore for the moment the non-high-priority items, but i'll make note of them all the same, of course.
[10:42] <bradb> so #1
[10:42] <bradb> medium-highish priority
[10:43] <bradb> because it's a pain to do an edit and then go back to the bug page to add a comment explaining your change
[10:43] <seb128> I've classed them by priority from my point 
[10:43] <seb128> editing and commenting are the same action
[10:43] <seb128> when you change the properties of a bug you want to explain why
[10:43] <bradb> absolutely
[10:44] <tseng|work> when changing state it should be required
[10:44] <ogra> yep
[10:44] <tseng|work> you cant close a bug w/o a comment
[10:44] <dholbach> i think it won't overtax users to have all of this on one page :-)
[10:44] <bradb> mpt might be doing some work on this at the moment, in trying to improve the whole too-many-clicks between bug and task pages, but i'll have to double check with him, and he's probably sleeping atm
[10:44] <seb128> k
[10:45] <bradb> ok, so, we agree #1 is fairly high priority, for both bug info and task info, right?
[10:45] <seb128> correct
[10:45] <ogra> ++
[10:45] <bradb> ok, noted. #2 now.
[10:45] <bradb> hm
[10:45] <seb128> you want to view the comments before acting
[10:45] <seb128> for sure
[10:45] <seb128> 90% of the time
[10:45] <bradb> seb128: do you though? given that the description is editable.
[10:46] <seb128> yep
[10:46] <bradb> why?
[10:46] <seb128> because you want to see *all* the informations
[10:46] <seb128> before judging
[10:46] <bradb> we're intending for comments only to add information to explaining what the problem is. the ideal place to get the sum total of useful info about the bug should be the description, no?
[10:46] <seb128> hum
[10:47] <seb128> you need to fix people so
[10:47] <seb128> nobody update the description atm
[10:47] <seb128> and that's extra work for the maintainers
[10:47] <tseng|work> bradb ever looked at our/other distros bugzilla? im sure you have, there is a ton of debugging info going on
[10:47] <bradb> seb128: is it less work to read all the comments instead every time you look at the bug report? :)
[10:47] <tseng|work> or more info that wasnt (but should have been) in the summary
[10:47] <seb128> bradb: for sure yes
[10:48] <seb128> I just read the current comment
[10:48] <seb128> and I can scroll back without any action
[10:48] <seb128> to know everything about the bug
[10:48] <herve> bradb, one thing before I leave, I can't mark bugs as duplicate
[10:48] <herve> must go now, bye
[10:48] <bradb> heh, not that he's here anymore, but dups i've already got in SteveA's code review queue
[10:49] <bradb> ok, so back to point #2
[10:49] <seb128> atm the description is not even usuable
[10:49] <seb128> it eats all the CRLF
[10:49] <seb128> so that's a mess
[10:49] <seb128> which doesn't help to work from the edit page :)
[10:50] <\sh> well, for me, the status of malone is more a plain ticketing system like RT, then a bug maintaining tool. 
[10:50] <koke> yep, white-space: pre now! :)
[10:50] <bradb> seb128: it's only like that on the task page (it should look ok on the bug page), but stub might have fixed that.
[10:50] <bradb> he ported the bugfix from Zope 3 to our codebase last week to fix that, i think, but i'll have to double check
[10:50] <seb128> bradb: task page == edit, bug page == comments?
[10:51] <bradb> yeah
[10:51] <seb128> right
[10:51] <dholbach> erm... why did the mail with my changes go to dilys@muse.19inch.net?
[10:51] <seb128> but you go on the task page from the list
[10:51] <seb128> which has the issue
[10:51] <bradb> dholbach: it's our IRC bot
[10:51] <dholbach> oh cool
[10:52] <dholbach> in which channel is it?
[10:52] <seb128> bradb: how do I edit the bug description?
[10:52] <bradb> seb128: so you'd prefer to, when looking the list of tasks, have to always do a second click to get to the page where you can change assignee, status, triage, etc?
[10:53] <seb128> yep
[10:53] <bradb> seb128: click on Edit Bug Details from the bug page
[10:53] <seb128> correct
[10:53] <bradb> ok
[10:53] <seb128> I want to read the comments before acting
[10:53] <seb128> ie: there is a new bug
[10:53] <seb128> the guy has opened it
[10:53] <seb128> and put 2 comments then
[10:53] <seb128> I want to know about the comments first
[10:54] <ogra> makes sense
[10:54] <bradb> sure
[10:54] <bradb> i'm a little worried about the new user being very confusing by the bug page, particularly the task list, but...
[10:55] <\sh> bradb: can u explain again, why the assigned maintainer should be able to edit the original bug description? 
[10:55] <seb128> any way to make 2 modes maybe?
[10:55] <koke> I'd like a page with edit+comments
[10:55] <seb128> for people opening bug or for people working?
[10:55] <koke> I really like the bugzilla approach
[10:55] <bradb> \sh: to make it more accurate and useful than the first comment that was added to the bug
[10:56] <bradb> seb128: hmm...
[10:56] <bradb> 2 modes sounds a bit complicated (not just to implement, but i mean to use it seems like it might be a bit complicated)
[10:57] <\sh> bradb: so, thinking about workflow in a customer care center...the customer is calling in, and giving a problem description. this description is fixed forever. the assigned supporter will have to comment on the problem not to edit the first description of the problem
[10:57] <bradb> seb128: should we just say that landing on the bug page for now is an appropriate and workable solution to #2 for now?
[10:57] <bradb> \sh: that's not how it works in Malone :)
[10:58] <seb128> bradb: yep
[10:58] <bradb> ok, fair enough, noted. #3 then.
[10:58] <bradb> what does #3 mean exactly?
[10:58] <seb128> just a note
[10:58] <\sh> bradb: thats right, and this is whats confusing. cause working the whole time with ticketing systems and bugzilla, you are used to the "question" "response" system
[10:58] <seb128> how do I edit the bug description ?
[10:58] <\sh> seb128: "edit bug details"
[10:58] <dholbach> \sh: and then?
[10:58] <bradb> [16:53]  <bradb> seb128: click on Edit Bug Details from the bug page
[10:59] <\sh> dholbach: and then what? ,-)
[10:59] <seb128> ups, sorry, I though it was related to the task/bug page
[10:59] <dholbach> ah yes, yes
[10:59] <seb128> not easy to find
[10:59] <seb128> going to the corner list
[10:59] <LarstiQ> \sh: being able to concentrate the current state of the bug is nice too however
[11:00] <bradb> seb128: the description is something on the bug as a whole (rather than related to fixing the bug in a specific place), so it's a bug page thing, not a task page thing.
[11:00] <LarstiQ> the dbs has some bugs with a _lot_ of comments, you then have to read everything to understand what is going on
[11:00] <bradb> seb128: is #3 something that needs to be noted then or not? if so, i'll need to get more info from you on what the problem there is, specifically as you've worded it in #3.
[11:01] <\sh> LarstiQ: but if you edit the first "problem description" you are changing the original data of the reporter.
[11:01] <seb128> bradb: no, that's just the "edit bug" not discovrable on the page
[11:02] <seb128> I've not figured how to go from bug to task 
[11:02] <bradb> \sh: the original data of the reporter is also the first comment on the bug :)
[11:02] <LarstiQ> \sh: with edit history, I don't experience that as much of a problem
[11:02] <bradb> seb128: can you show me the url at which point you're lost, and where you're trying to get to when looking at that URL?
[11:02] <\sh> bradb: it doesn't show up to me like a comment when I'm on the "bug description and discussion" page
[11:03] <koke> bradb: how can I assign a bug to me, from the bug page??
[11:03] <seb128> bradb: k
[11:03] <bradb> \sh: yes it does :)
[11:03] <\sh> seb128: when you're on "bug description and discussion" page click on the list with "upstream/package" etc.
[11:03] <bradb> \sh: it's the first comment on the bug, at the bottom of the page.
[11:03] <seb128> bradb: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/543
[11:03] <seb128> bradb: I want to close the bug, where do I click?
[11:04] <seb128> bradb: hum rather, I want the tasks for the bug
[11:04] <bradb> seb128: ok, so keep in mind that a bug can exist in many places
[11:04] <bradb> exactly
[11:04] <\sh> bradb: u see, i'm lost...i read the first description as the first entry..then I have the newest comments, and then the original description again as comment...
[11:04] <bradb> so, you want to close it in your neck of the woods
[11:04] <bradb> seb128: but this is /precisely/ what i was saying earlier about my concern with having people land on the bug page :) that they'd be confused by the task listing.
[11:05] <bradb> seb128: but yeah, you just click on your task in the task listing
[11:05] <\sh> bradb: change it from a static list with link to a small table with all data and form widgets to change...
[11:05] <dholbach> when i try to click on "ubuntu verbiste" from mentioned page, i get a "404" error
[11:06] <seb128> bradb: I'm probably stupid, but I don't find any task on this page?
[11:06] <seb128> ups
[11:06] <seb128> that's the first line
[11:06] <bradb> dholbach: that's a hint to me to make that clicking do what the user expects :) when you click on the row itself (/not/ the underlined link) it'll do what you expect.
[11:06] <seb128> nm
[11:06] <\sh> bradb: have a look on "request tracker" how they are handling requests and tasks (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/)
[11:06] <bradb> seb128: no, it really /is/ that confusing, unfortunately :/
[11:06] <seb128> I'm too used to bugzilla, I was taking that as the bug summary
[11:07] <dholbach> bradb: ok
[11:07] <BjornT> bradb: i think the problem is that the bug page and the task page are too decoupled, it might be a good idea to make it easier to change things from the bug page
[11:07] <bradb> \sh: "tasks" in RT are almost surely an entirely different thing than the semantics in Malone.
[11:07] <bradb> BjornT: yep, already did that once and reverse --replay'd the patch once too :)
[11:07] <\sh> bradb: well...I mean the appearance...to change the task status e.g.
[11:08] <bradb> we haven't been able to aggregate that all into one page without overwhelming the user with information
[11:08] <\sh> changing assignment etc.
[11:08] <seb128> bradb: the current system is not that bad, I've not figured because there is only one task for the bug
[11:08] <\sh> bradb: and remove the first bug description from the task page
[11:09] <seb128> bradb: with 2 tasks that would be clear :)
[11:09] <bradb> seb128: two tasks will be very common
[11:09] <seb128> yeah, just go to the next point
[11:09] <seb128> this one is my bad
[11:09] <BjornT> bradb: well we wouldn't have to merge the two pages entirely, for example, in the task listing, instead of just showing the values, they could be editable
[11:10] <bradb> BjornT: yep, that's the change i made :)
[11:10] <bradb> #4
[11:10] <seb128> that would rock
[11:10] <bradb> seb128: except it is somewhat overwhelming
[11:11] <bradb> seb128: it's hard to understand what you're supposed to be editing, why you're allowed to edit this certain thing in the page, and what to do about all this information being shown to you at once.
[11:11] <BjornT> bradb: ouch... hmm, i guess we'll have to write down the outcome of this discussion to really show that the current approach is confusing for the users
[11:11] <bradb> BjornT: i'm noting it all, in the hopes that i'll finally be able to sell sabdfl on getting rid of "tasks" at the level of the web UI. :)
[11:11] <bradb> seb128: so, for #4...
[11:12] <seb128> bradb: I'm happy to click on a task to edit them as far as I can put a comment too here 
[11:12] <seb128> let's go to #4
[11:12] <bradb> all you're saying is you want the kind of link that's already on the task page, but for the bug page as well, right?
[11:12] <seb128> right
[11:13] <bradb> seb128: ok...the only problem is to figure out where to put that. if you imagine a bug that exists in 4 different places...
[11:13] <bradb> seb128: where do i put the link in the bug page, and where does it go to? bugs on what?
[11:14] <seb128> hum
[11:14] <bradb> i don't want to get carried away in discussing implementation details at the moment, but i'm looking for ideas on this one :)
[11:15] <bradb> maybe mpt, our UI guy, is the one i should ask on this.
[11:15] <seb128> on the bottom of the page?
[11:15] <bradb> seb128: the key question is though then, where does that link go? keep in mind that you might be looking at a bug that exists upstream and in ubuntu, kubuntu and debian
[11:15] <bradb> which bug list does the link take you to?
[11:16] <seb128> have you looked on bugzilla?
[11:16] <seb128> you have all these links on the bottom with your custom lists
[11:16] <seb128> atm I've "NEW  NOTUPSTREAM  ...."
[11:16] <seb128> but I guess that's a "nice to have/low priority"
[11:17] <bradb> i'm familiar with that
[11:17] <bradb> you're point #4 said to go "to the list of bugs" though
[11:17] <bradb> which list of bugs?
[11:18] <seb128> my bugs
[11:18] <bradb> ah, ok
[11:18] <koke> seb128: I guess it should be the last query
[11:18] <bradb> seems like a low priority indeed though, one way or the other
[11:19] <\sh> bradb: put it in the middle between the "users preferences" and "logout" 
[11:19] <\sh> at top of the page
[11:19] <koke> I have 2 (maybe more) items medium-high priority
[11:20] <bradb> koke: ok, one sec
[11:20] <seb128> bradb: dunno, it annoyed me while working on some bugs to other day
[11:20] <seb128> bradb: I think I've opened a bug directly from a mail
[11:20] <seb128> and figured than I had no way to go to my list of bugs from here
[11:21] <seb128> without going back to the start page of malone
[11:21] <seb128> and clicking
[11:21] <bradb> ok
[11:21] <bradb> noted
[11:21] <bradb> one last quick q then seb128 
[11:21] <seb128> BTW low priority
[11:21] <bradb> then we'll go onto koke's points
[11:21] <bradb> seb128: how often do you file and assign a bug at the same time. #5 may be medium-highish priority, or may not.
[11:21] <koke> one sec
[11:21] <thom> btw, seb's point #7 is totally critical to me
[11:22] <seb128> bradb: depending on how good is the default assignement :)
[11:22] <bradb> it's doable already, other than the fact that the search had broken (but again, that's my next merge that lands)
[11:22] <bradb> thom: just use bookmarks
[11:22] <bradb> seb128: there is no default assignment at the moment in Malone
[11:23] <seb128> yeah, dunno if you replied before
[11:23] <bradb> thom: all bug searches are GETs
[11:23] <seb128> who is the QA/assigned for a package
[11:23] <seb128> ie: who gets the mails?
[11:23] <seb128> and how to set that?
[11:23] <thom> bradb: meh; that totally breaks workflow
[11:23] <thom> anyway, if there's a hack it's not so bad for the short term
[11:24] <koke> bradb: btw, the "add upstream task..." is working??
[11:24] <bradb> koke: has for a long time (except for a brief period of breakage a couple months ago, i think).
[11:25] <koke> bradb: ok, then how it works???
[11:25] <koke> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/624/+upstreamtask
[11:25] <bradb> seb128: there is no default assignee. the sourcepackage maintainer gets the emails. i don't know offhand if that's editable (it's part of soyuz if it is)
[11:26] <seb128> bradb: hum?
[11:26] <seb128> "sourcepackage"?
[11:26] <seb128> ie: the debian guy?
[11:26] <\sh> seb128: this is distro task
[11:26] <seb128> right
[11:26] <seb128> so who is the "sourcepackage maintainer" for gnome-panel?
[11:26] <\sh> seb128: upstream task the real upstream maintainer ;)
[11:26] <seb128> how is that determinated?
[11:27] <ogra> urgh... determined from the Maintainer: field ?
[11:27] <seb128> that doesn't work
[11:27] <dholbach> nice :-)
[11:27] <seb128> we have the Debian fields
[11:27] <dholbach> the debian guys will slaughter us :-)
[11:27] <ogra> (regard the questionmark)
[11:27] <seb128> bad question, change question
[11:27] <seb128> NOW
[11:27] <dholbach> must be team based
[11:27] <seb128> dholbach: still, need a way to set it
[11:27] <dholbach> ubuntu-team-based (once we have them)
[11:28] <\sh> confused now ;)
[11:28] <seb128> atm I don't receive any feedback of malone for bugs on my packages
[11:28] <dholbach> atm it's by-hand assigning, but soyuz will fix it, once it's there, right?
[11:28] <seb128> how do I fix that?
[11:28] <seb128> how soyuz knows what packages are mine?
[11:29] <seb128> or for what package I'm the QA member rather
[11:29] <dholbach> did bradb collapse?
[11:29] <seb128> unexpected question, segmentation fault
[11:29] <thom> i think he's gone to buy lots and lots of coffee :P
[11:29] <seb128> open a malone bug on it
[11:29] <\sh> bradb_: konversation is working ;)
[11:29] <ogra> bah
[11:29] <seb128> a random guy will maybe get a mail about that :p
 ;)
[11:30] <ogra> heh
[11:30] <\sh> right now, we're talking about 3 different things at the same time ;)
[11:30] <dholbach> bradb_: we were discussing the sourcepackage maintainer concept
[11:30] <dholbach> animatedly
[11:30] <seb128> k, let's fix that
[11:30] <seb128> my question is simple
[11:30] <seb128> I get all the bug concerning gnome-panel atm for ubuntu
[11:30] <bradb_> ok, sorry, i was just catching up with BjornT 
[11:30] <seb128> how is that going to work for malone?
[11:31] <\sh> upstream task == source package && distro task ==  what have to be done for ubuntu, kubuntu, debian, gentoo etc.pp 
[11:31] <seb128> and apply that for dunno ... 100 packages
[11:32] <\sh> is there a way to link upstream tasks of malone together with doap products?
[11:32] <seb128> one topic at the time please :)
[11:32] <bradb_> seb128: i mentioned having made a note earlier to have to talk to mark about how we're going to get that done. not sure at the moment how he wants to solve that.
[11:32] <\sh> seb128: u r discussion upstream tasks and asked how it can be correlated with malone ;)
[11:32] <\sh> discussing ;) 
[11:33] <seb128> bradb_: at who is informed about the bug? nobody?
[11:33] <bradb_> seb128: that's why it's a fairly urgent probably because, indeed, nobody
[11:33] <bradb_> seb128: what we *could* do..
[11:33] <seb128> \sh: no, I'm working how I can be informed of my bugs ... like with bugzilla atm
[11:34] <bradb_> is have dilys join #ubuntu-motu, to at least have some notification happening in some way shape or form until the maintainership is properly setup.
[11:34] <seb128> my concern is not motu
[11:34] <bradb_> and, well, stub could probably do a simple SQL update
[11:34] <seb128> that's breezy
[11:34] <seb128> and the bug flow is too important to read all the bugs
[11:34] <seb128> I need to get only the desktop bugs
[11:34] <seb128> one way or another
[11:35] <seb128> and that really should work before switching from bugzilla
[11:35] <seb128> or we are going to send bugs to /dev/null
[11:35] <seb128> not really that bad, but there is no way for everybody to follow on the whole bug flow
[11:35] <seb128> (which is atm ubuntu-bugs)
[11:36] <seb128> and I'm speaking without universe...
[11:36] <bradb_> seb128: how is a "desktop bug" identified/
[11:36] <seb128> we have assigned all the gnome stuff by hand to me
[11:36] <seb128> gnome-panel == seb128
[11:36] <seb128> nautilus == seb128
[11:36] <seb128> etc
[11:36] <bradb_> then we can do the same in Malone
[11:36] <seb128> or ubuntu-desktop
[11:36] <seb128> k
[11:36] <seb128> how do I do that? :)
[11:36] <bradb_> we'd make you the maintainer of those various source packages
[11:37] <seb128> need to be a malone admin?
[11:37] <bradb_> you wouldn't be the person who'd be setting that info directly at first, i don't think
[11:37] <\sh> why not setting an additional field inside the debian/control ? ubuntu-qa: group-address/ubuntu-maintainers-address?
[11:37] <seb128> no
[11:37] <\sh> and filter it from this
[11:37] <seb128> because we don't want to modify the whole archive
[11:38] <ogra> heh, funny idea though
[11:38] <bradb_> i really have to talk to the soyuz guys though. the whole system to deal with package interrogation and management is the place where setting up the correct sp maintainer happens.
[11:38] <thom> \sh: meh, you'd have to do that for every single package; and how would you then do it for debian as well?
[11:38] <seb128> bradb_: can you make than high priority please?
[11:38] <seb128> s/than/that/
[11:39] <bradb_> yeah, i already did a while back in this meeting :)
[11:39] <seb128> k
[11:39] <\sh> thom: well, right now, there is a discussion between debian and ubuntu because of those maintainer fields and stuff. so, we will see more ubuntu releases later in our life...so we can adjust those fields...not right now, but in the future
[11:39] <seb128> \sh: no we can't
[11:39] <bradb_> ok dudes, we've got to wrap up soon
[11:39] <bradb_> we've gone on for an hour and 40 minutes somehow :)
[11:39] <seb128> \sh: you want to fork the whole archive only to change that?
[11:39] <ogra> heh
[11:39] <\sh> seb128: no...
[11:40] <dholbach> what about koke's list? :-)
[11:40] <ogra> \sh, you have to
[11:40] <bradb_> which is longer than the meeting we had to decide the entirety of Launchpad 1.0 in .au, i think :)
[11:40] <seb128> which is short for distro meetings
[11:40] <ogra> yep
[11:40] <seb128> we already had some 3 hours meetings :)
[11:40] <bradb_> ok, so koke what were your two points? let's try and run through them quickly
[11:40] <ajmitch_> and 3 hours is still not enough..
[11:41] <koke> well, I have a third one, maybe not as important
[11:41] <dholbach> ogra: and 3 meetings a day :-)
[11:41] <koke> 1- How can I assign a bug to me from the bug page?
[11:41] <koke> 2- How can I close a bug from the bug page?
[11:41] <koke> 3- Direct numbered url for a bug, without knowing the product
[11:41] <ogra> dholbach, yeah... lets meet
[11:41] <seb128> 1- already spoken about that
[11:41] <seb128> 2- same
[11:41] <bradb_> koke: you don't assign or close from the bug page.
[11:41] <\sh> seb128: well, we're syncing the packages from debian...so we getting the stuff via <ftp/http/rsync>, we're using source packages, so why not put an add. field (as mentioned above) automatically to the debian/control file correlated from a list we set up before...(well it's an idea) 
[11:41] <seb128> that's "how to edit from the bug page"
 seb128: except it is somewhat overwhelming
 seb128: it's hard to understand what you're supposed to be editing, why you're allowed to edit this certain thing in the page, and what to do about all this information being shown to you at once.
[11:42] <bradb_> koke: a bug can exist in many places, you have to first go to the place where you've fixed the bug or where you want to assign it, and /then/ do that :)
[11:42] <koke> bradb: look at https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/575/
[11:42] <bradb_> koke: ok, so keep in mind what you're looking at there
[11:42] <koke> that page shows "assigned to: MOTU"
[11:42] <koke> then, I should think I can reassign
[11:43] <bradb_> koke: you're looking at a report of a problem in some software
[11:43] <seb128> \sh: no interest to do this
[11:43] <bradb_> koke: as it turns out, because we're in the very, very, very early days of Malone, there's only one place in which this bug has been marked as needing to be fixed.
[11:43] <bradb_> koke: remember though, when more and more people adopt malone, it'll be quite common to have 2, 3, 4, 5 or more tasks on a given bug.
[11:44] <bradb_> koke: so that list with the headings "Upstream / Package     Status    ...." etc. could grow to several items long
[11:44] <bradb_> ...and then you begin to appreciate why i rolled back having folded the task editing page into the bug editing page :)
[11:44] <bradb_> it's an incredible amount of info to show on one page. :)
[11:44] <seb128> bradb_: is there any way to have CC/watch directly on the bug page? It should figure from my login so that's a quick action (while the current form is when you want to Cc: somebody)
[11:45] <koke> hmmm, I think this was more the "click on the row instead the text" ;)
[11:45] <koke> bradb_: and what about closing?
[11:45] <bradb_> koke: yeah :) the clickability sucks.
[11:45] <koke> here I should say "rejecting"
[11:45] <koke> the NOTABUG stuff
[11:45] <bradb_> koke: click on the row and you'll see where you can set the assignee
[11:46] <koke> mostly
[11:46] <bradb_> or "Reject", etc.
[11:46] <bradb_> seb128: someone already mentioned one-click subscription during this meeting (dholbach, i think.) not a priority though, but yes, i can understand why you guys want it.
[11:46] <bradb_> it's been noted, but as lower priority for now
[11:47] <seb128> k
[11:47] <koke> e.g: look at bugs 617 and 618
[11:47] <koke> IMHO these are not exactly bugs
[11:47] <seb128> what is 617 so?
[11:48] <seb128> bradb_: I want "click on an URL from a comment" working too :)
[11:49] <bradb_> sorry, was talking to BjornT for a sec
[11:49] <ogra> uhh, all french
[11:50] <ajmitch_> koke: why is 618 not a bug?
[11:50] <bradb_> seb128: ah, yeah, isn't there a bug open for that/
[11:50] <ajmitch_> it's just another FTBFS
[11:50] <seb128> bradb_: maybe
[11:50] <seb128> not by me :)
[11:51] <koke> ajmitch_: the package is built in the archive
[11:51] <koke> and I've looked into quake2 and there's no mention of that libs
[11:52] <seb128> bradb_: doesn't seems so
[11:52] <seb128> I'll open one
[11:52] <bradb_> it's opened
[11:52] <bradb_> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/495
[11:53] <bradb_> seb128: ^^
[11:53] <bradb_> same idea, anyway
[11:53] <bradb_> right
[11:53] <bradb_> i have to leave nowish
[11:53] <bradb_> so, any last words before we wrap up?
[11:53] <koke> anyway, if these are not the best examples I'll file a bug "My president is buggy" :)
[11:53] <seb128> I know you know about my concerns
[11:53] <seb128> so fine with me
[11:54] <seb128> koke: I don't get the point
[11:54] <bradb_> i've noted all the important points that came up in this meeting. i'll write the appropriate mailing list tomorrow to inform a wider audience about this discussion.
[11:54] <seb128> k
[11:54] <dholbach> thanks bradb_ 
[11:54] <koke> well, forget that, I think I need more sleep
[11:54] <seb128> what list would that be?
[11:54] <seb128> just to be sure I'm on the appriopriate list :p
[11:54] <bradb_> seb128: i'll find out tomorrow morning :)
[11:54] <\sh> koke: not only you :)
[11:54] <koke> :D
[11:54] <bradb_> launchpad@ and some other ubuntu places
[11:54] <seb128> k
[11:54] <seb128> thanks for the meeting
[11:55] <koke> bradb_: what should I do with the low-prio items?
[11:55] <bradb_> right, meeting adjourned. thanks guys.
[11:55] <\sh> thx bradb_ 
[11:55] <bradb_> koke: check if they're in malone, if not file them in Malone :)
[11:55] <ogra> thanks bradb_ 
[11:55] <koke> hmm, I'll try
[11:55] <bradb_> cool, heading off now guys, later
[11:55] <koke> but every page I visit I find a new one :)
[11:55] <dholbach> have a nice day bradb_ 
[11:57] <seb128> koke: try to not flood with minor issue atm maybe
[11:57] <seb128> if you find that muchs concern there is probably some details
[11:57] <koke> seb128: yep, that's why I don't like the idea of filing a bug per item
[11:58] <koke> most of them have a one line fix
[11:58] <seb128> have you some example?