[12:09] <mdz> infinity: would smbfs add any other new packages to standard?
[12:23] <melodie> does apt-authentication exist for Multiverse and Universe packages exist ? if yes where to find auth. keys  plse ?
[12:24] <crimsun> yes, same key used for main restricted
[12:24] <melodie> wao!
[12:24] <melodie> fantastic!
[12:25] <melodie> but not for other repositories I suppose ?
[12:25] <melodie> such as.. backports ? :)
[12:26] <melodie> crimsun: this detail is not written in the docs on the wiki  :)
[12:27] <crimsun> melodie: backports is not at all associated with the official Ubuntu repositories
[12:27] <melodie> ok
[12:27] <melodie> what about adding the info you just gave me ?
[12:27] <melodie> I come from here right now:
[12:27] <melodie> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DanielTChen
[12:28] <melodie> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AptAuthenticationInstructionsForHoary
[12:28] <melodie> who is autorized to add modif and so on ? :)
[12:28] <crimsun> anyone with a wiki acct may
[12:29] <melodie> 'acct' ? (I'm a french newbee :)  )
[12:29] <crimsun> (account)
[12:29] <melodie> ok!
[12:30] <melodie> if someone wants to add in there that the authentication key registered in Synaptic are also Ok for Universe and Multiverse it might be a good thing
[12:31] <melodie> no ?
[12:31] <JanC> melodie : everyone can get an account  :-)
[12:31] <JanC> so everyone can change
[12:31] <JanC> or add more info
[12:32] <melodie> JanC: I understand, but
[12:32] <melodie> I read on the wiki that crimsun belongs to this one devel team... Universe
[12:32] <melodie> then I am just a newbie
[12:32] <melodie> then if he tells me the key is valid
[12:32] <crimsun> melodie: that fact is not at all connected with who may modify the page
[12:33] <melodie> and ?
[12:33] <crimsun> melodie: I only wrote AptAuthenticationInstructionsForHoary because it became a FAQ. Other people have contributed to the page and have modified it.
[12:34] <melodie> ok, then I question inverse way: where is it indicated officially about the key being valid for these three repositories ? :)
[12:35] <crimsun> melodie: it's not, but neither universe nor multiverse are supported by Ubuntu.
[12:36] <melodie> yes
[12:36] <crimsun> feel free to add the clarification yourself :)
[12:36] <melodie> then how come 
[12:36] <melodie> "yes, same key used for main restricted"
[12:36] <melodie> crimsun: I am a serious person
[12:37] <JanC> crimsun : I think she means maybe you should use other keys ?
[12:37] <melodie> and wouldn't affirm something I am not absolutely sure 
[12:37] <JanC> or at least expected that ?
[12:37] <melodie> JanC: I mean: do we need to add keys and if not why ?
[12:37] <crimsun> melodie: I'm sure there was a reason to use the same key for all three repos. mdz/elmo can clarify.
[12:38] <melodie> and if yes where and how ?
[12:38] <JanC> at the moment the keys are the same, so adding this info to the wiki is okay
[12:39] <melodie> ok
[12:40] <melodie> are there somewhere archives where I could find confirmation ? that's for a doc I help about
[12:40] <melodie> because I'm a very interested newbie full with questions and want to give sure answers :)
[12:41] <melodie> I looked in many pages in Google
[12:41] <melodie> and didn't find anything appropriate 
[12:41] <melodie> that's why I came here :)
[12:41] <dholbach> that's maybe because lots of documentation hasnt been written
[12:42] <crimsun> melodie: currently you'll need to ask mdz, jdub, or elmo. Please note also the output of ,,sudo apt-key list''.
[12:42] <dholbach> or mvo
[12:42] <crimsun> yes
[12:42] <melodie> crimsun: ok
[12:42] <melodie> thanks to all :)
[12:43] <JanC> melodie, I found out that the keys are the same by trying it  ;-)
[12:44] <melodie> JanC: did you dl something ? :)
[12:45] <melodie> crimsun: now I know where are these keys in my files :))
[12:45] <dholbach> sleep tight everyone
[12:45] <melodie> thanks, same to you
[12:45] <JanC> yes, since I use Ubuntu for some months  :)
[12:46] <melodie> did you sometimes get reject authentication messages ?
[12:47] <melodie> or better said: fail auth...
[12:48] <lamont> melodie/crimsun: the signature is on $DISTRO/Release, which has the md5 and sha1 sums for each of the Packages, Sources, etc files in each of the components in the release.
[12:49] <lamont> hence you don't get to choose a diff key for different components (main,restricted,etc), since there's only one file to sign
[12:51] <melodie> lamont: ok thanks
[12:55] <melodie> good night  :)
[12:56] <pitti> night everybody
[01:20] <Unfrgiven> hi all
[01:20] <Unfrgiven> who apart from fabbione are on the kernel team? i've found some issues with the 2.6.12 kernel image that i wanted to report
[01:22] <mdke> you could file bugs in bugzilla
[01:22] <thom> Unfrgiven: file bugs, please
[01:22] <Unfrgiven> mdke: yeah i can do that. i just wanted to have a quick chat and ask some questions... but i guess i can file the bug first
[01:23] <mdke> Unfrgiven, bugs are easier for people to remember :)
[01:23] <Unfrgiven> mdke: fair pojint :)
[01:23] <Unfrgiven> s/pojint/point
[01:56] <mtbeedee> hola
[02:11] <daniels> 4528 ND  May 12 Juanita Lara    (   0) Finally a Patch that works!... gamin
[02:11] <daniels> no patch can make that thing work
[02:12] <mtbeedee> what thing?
[02:12] <thom> hahahaha
[02:12] <zul> evilness
[02:12] <thom> AHAHAHAHA
[02:13] <thom> it's definitely time for sleep
[02:15] <daniels> night dude (if you are in fact going to bed)
[02:17] <thom> yes
[02:17] <thom> i
[02:17] <thom> am
[02:17] <thom> dammit
[02:19] <zul> then go dammit
[02:23] <thom> rock on: http://kerneltrap.org/node/5103
[02:31] <lamont> right.  time to go get beaten up for a bit.
[02:58] <Nafallo> hmm, how the hell did the clock turn almost 3?
[02:59] <Nafallo> I was to sleep early I thought.
[02:59] <Nafallo> well, goodnight :-P
[03:43] <jnc> yay, evo working again in breezy / amd64
[04:38] <CarlK> does anyone care that the matrix screen saver"
[04:38] <CarlK> er
[04:38] <CarlK> does anyone care that the "matrix screen saver" says KNOPPIX.RU at one point?
[04:41] <robitaille> CarlK,   it does?  I used that screensaver for a while, but I never noticed.
[04:43] <jsgotangco> me neither
[04:43] <robitaille> interestingly if you check that web site (knoppix.ru), there is a picture of sadfl  on the main page (in the middle of that long front page)
[04:44] <schweeb> it's subliminal sabdfl promotion
[04:45] <MrKeuner> hi, bittorrent tracker is down.
[04:46] <greg> hi guys i did a doggy reinstall of ubuntu over a debian i kept the /home partitoin form debian its all working fine excpept that i would like to import the users from debian to ubuntu witch files should i copy ? i have a ssaved of my debian etc
[04:47] <MrKeuner> /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow and home directories with correct user:group infos
[04:47] <jsgotangco> hah
[04:47] <Burgundavia> greg, that kind of question belongs in #ubuntu
[04:48] <greg> ha ok
[04:48] <greg> thks !
[04:57] <MrKeuner> that bittorrent which is down is the one at torrent.ubuntu.com
[05:17] <jdub> hrm, anyone have tim morris's email?
[05:18] <jsgotangco> the guy who did the lightning bof?
[05:23] <robitaille> jdub,  I think it is  tjlmorris@gmail.com (according to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WinningTheDesktop)
[05:27] <jdub> hey robitaille!
[05:27] <jdub> dude!
[05:27] <jdub> :-)
[05:27] <jdub> thanks :)
[05:28] <robitaille> np
[05:28] <jdub> robitaille: i didn't realise you hung out on irc ;)
[05:58] <fabbione> morning
[06:01] <wasabi> sorta kinda
[06:39] <jdub> mdz: somehow missed your email about -changes, doing now
[06:40] <mdz> jdub: thanks
[06:41] <jamesh> mdz: you were asking me earlier if I had access to PPC?
[06:42] <jamesh> mdz: I don't.
[06:44] <fabbione> night lamont
[06:45] <jsgotangco> bye lamont 
[06:53] <jsgotangco> oohhhh
[06:56] <daniels> elmo: please sync xft
[06:57] <wasabi> Huh. So how can you make a .desktop file use gksudo AND pass an argument?
[06:58] <Lathiat> you have to put the command and arguments in quotes i think
[06:59] <wasabi> thought %u had to be at the end.
[06:59] <wasabi> wchih kinda makes that hard
[07:00] <wasabi> yeah that basically doesn't work
[07:01] <wasabi> great.
[07:01] <wasabi> gues gksudo really needs a -- arg
[07:04] <daniels> elmo: please sync rpm
[07:14] <daniels> elmo: please sync vorbis-tools
[07:20] <wasabi> gksudo needs a --desktop option.
[07:26] <daniels> elmo: please sync tcl8.4
[07:28] <Lathiat> elmo needs an irc script to sync things for him
[07:29] <Lathiat> heh
[07:29] <lifeless> the 'I can't believe its not elmo' script
[07:29] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: ping?
[07:30] <fabbione> pong
[07:30] <Unfrgiven> im having some issues with the 2.6.12-1 image
[07:30] <Unfrgiven> namely ndiswrapper
[07:30] <Unfrgiven> i logged a bug. was it a known issue to you?
[07:31] <fabbione> bug number?
[07:31] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: ill just fetch it
[07:32] <Unfrgiven> 10670
[07:32] <tritium> daniels, I'm off to bed...
[07:32] <Unfrgiven> on the ndiswrapper forums, other people have reported the same problem
[07:32] <Unfrgiven> so basically its an upstream problem
[07:33] <Unfrgiven> im going to give the release candidate of the next version of ndiswrapper a shot. if you want, i can let you know if it works
[07:33] <fabbione> dude
[07:33] <fabbione> that's all other than a critical bug
[07:33] <fabbione> you are reporting a bug on a non-supported kernel and it is ok
[07:33] <fabbione> but only one external feature is broken
[07:33] <fabbione> that's at the best a normal
[07:34] <Unfrgiven> apologies... i treated is as a failure of a network device
[07:34] <Unfrgiven> one that works fine in the previous kernel release
[07:34] <daniels> tritium: ok, night dude
[07:34] <fabbione> it will matter after the kernel will be final and in main
[07:34] <fabbione> that will be treated as regression
[07:34] <fabbione> right now it is not
[07:35] <Unfrgiven> ok sorry about that... im learning more all the time :)
[07:35] <fabbione> critical is when it eats your computer
[07:35] <Unfrgiven> haha ok :)
[07:35] <tritium> daniels, night.  I think crimsun is in there now, so you're not the only active op
[07:35] <fabbione> Unfrgiven: please add an url to the upstream discussion/reports
[07:35] <fabbione> that will help us to track it
[07:35] <Unfrgiven> ok ill do that
[07:36] <Unfrgiven> how do you feel about pulling in the release candidate for the next version of ndiswrapper
[07:36] <daniels> tritium: yeah, we should be alright; cheers
[07:37] <fabbione> Unfrgiven: only if it is worth the trouble, since it needs also a userland update
[07:37] <fabbione> otherwise it is pointless
[07:37] <fabbione> and i really don't have the time to worry about userland too
[07:38] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: if i build and install the latest ndiswrapper module. when i modprobe, will it pick up the one in /lib/modules or will it get the one from initrd?
[07:38] <fabbione> ndis is not in the initrd
[07:38] <fabbione> you can build the module, replace the one in /lib/modules...
[07:38] <fabbione> depmod -a
[07:39] <fabbione> and modprobe it
[07:39] <fabbione> that should do
[07:40] <daniels> GNAARR SEB
[07:41] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: excellent. thanks. i'll give this a shot when i get home from work and let you know how it goes.
[07:41] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: thanks again for your help
[07:41] <fabbione> np
[07:42] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: oh and by the way i also wanted to say that you're doing an awesome job with the kernel! 2.6.12 is the first kernel that has supported suspend to disk & mem on my laptop
[07:43] <Unfrgiven> breezy is gonna rock!
[07:43] <fabbione> Unfrgiven: well thanks upstream and the other guys :)
[07:43] <fabbione> i am only doing the packaging ;)
[07:43] <fabbione> but be aware that until 2.6.12 is final from upstream we are going to break some random stuff here and there
[07:44] <fabbione> to pull in some new features
[07:44] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: yeah them too :)
[07:44] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: yep i realise. what surprises me is that the kernel autoinstall magic in the menu.lst puts the new kernel as default boot... thats a bit scary
[07:45] <fabbione> if you ask for crack.. you get it :)
[07:46] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: one thing that pisses me off about the kernel image autoinstall, is that it blows away my "vga=840" append... can i make it a permanent change?
[07:46] <fabbione> Unfrgiven: if you add it between the lines marked as DO NOT MODIFY.. well you asked for it :)
[07:46] <fabbione> i need to check how to do that...
[07:47] <fabbione> i don't usually add custom stuff
[07:47] <Unfrgiven> framebuffer stuff is very useful though... especially for seeing all the messages during bootup
[07:48] <fabbione> that's not what i questioned :)
[07:48] <Unfrgiven> and lots of people need to put stuff like noapic, etc.
[07:51] <fabbione> i will check on that.. 
[07:51] <fabbione> i need to go offline for 20 minutes or so
[07:51] <fabbione> bbl
[07:52] <jsgotangco> ogra, hey!
[07:53] <`anthony> btw - I've got the CPU scaling working on my dell 5150 laptop (uses a P4M). I needed to manually modprobe speedstep_ich.
[08:14] <fabbione> `anthony: i think you need to bug thom on powernowd
[08:15] <Unfrgiven> `anthony: i have the exact same laptop. i had to do the same.
[08:15] <fabbione> daniels: ping?
[08:15] <daniels> pong
[08:15] <fabbione> daniels: i need help to setup xorg on this machine: http://www.big-boys.com/pictures/picture1023.html
[08:16] <jdub> ha ha
[08:16] <daniels> fabbione: you're on your own :P
[08:16] <fabbione> daniels: the 4th monitor from the left side is only 99Hz instead of 100Hz and glxgear is only 293287328732 fps !
[08:17] <daniels> fabbione: don't use nvidia, then :P
[08:17] <fabbione> ehhee
[08:17] <bob2> that's a pretty bad benchmark result fro mglxgears
[08:17] <daniels> hm
[08:17] <daniels> breezy is still too boring
[08:17] <daniels> i wonder if I should drop the /usr/X11R6 -> /usr transition on it tonight
[08:17] <daniels> or, at least, the start of it
[08:18] <jdub> m0dular!!!
[08:18] <fabbione> daniels: i think it would be wise to let Kamion to deliver the first CD
[08:18] <froud> African Greetings, have not been here for awhile. For breezy, if anyone is developing new apps that will need docs for packaging, please can they let me know. Thanks
[08:18] <fabbione> Cluster 1 :)
[08:18] <daniels> does it run on clusters?
[08:18] <fabbione> no.. Cluster of Badgers 
[08:18] <daniels> heh
[08:19] <fabbione> but yeah we will soon be able to offer clustering
[08:19] <jsgotangco> "What Geeks Do When Their Bored"
[08:19] <daniels> ARGH
[08:19] <fabbione> BADGER BADGER BADGER :)
[08:19] <daniels> i wish people would stop reporting #7878
[08:20] <daniels> that thing does need a hoary-update though
[08:20] <fabbione> daniels: does X build with gcc-4.0 btw?
[08:20] <daniels> fabbione: don't think so; gotta pull some fixes from HEAD for that
[08:20] <fabbione> afair we don't have C++ stuff, do we?
[08:20] <bob2> has anyone else done the "compile a whole distro with gcc 4.0" thing yet?
[08:20] <daniels> fabbione: BUARRRR WRONG
[08:20] <daniels> fabbione: libglu
[08:20] <daniels> bob2: iirc fc4t2 did that
[08:20] <daniels> fabbione: so we get the fun of transitioning that
[08:21] <daniels> fabbione: and I get the fun of doing dbus, again :P
[08:21] <fabbione> daniels: about dbus.. are you going to enable the mono stuff?
[08:22] <fabbione> if so can you be careful on what arches are you going to push it?
[08:22] <daniels> fabbione: yeah, once mono is in main
[08:22] <fabbione> sparc mono still doesn't build
[08:22] <daniels> fabbione: ... no mono on sparc?
[08:22] <fabbione> i need to look at it
[08:22] <fabbione> last build didn't go
[08:22] <daniels> sigh
[08:22] <daniels> well, it won't happen till mono hits main anyway
[08:23] <fabbione> ok
[08:23] <fabbione> god.. the BreezyGoalPage starts to be impossible to edit
[08:23] <fabbione> ETOOMANYTAGSCOLOR
[08:26] <JaneW> fabbione: well lets aim to set them all to green... ;)
[08:27] <fabbione> JaneW: it's just a mess to edit from the web
[08:27] <froud> fabbione: docteam will take docbook and has svn if you want more stability
[08:27] <JaneW> fabbione: agreed, I wish the edit page would be more tabular
[08:28] <jsgotangco> JaneW, PDASupport now HighPriority as edited by mdz
[08:31] <fabbione> JaneW: can you please send out a request to everybody to update the kernel field so that we can snapshot and remove it from the webpage?
[08:32] <JaneW> jsgotangco: done
[08:32] <JaneW> fabbione: sure
[08:32] <fabbione> thanks
[08:33] <fabbione> or add a dependency on LinuxKernelRoadMap would work too
[08:33] <fabbione> i just need to have a list of things that will affect it
[08:33] <fabbione> either way it works
[08:33] <JaneW> fabbione: which do you think people are more likely to actually do? I am thinking the tables is nice and visible, and relatively easy to update quickly...
[08:35] <fabbione> JaneW: right.. let's update the table and later i will move the list to LinuxKernelRoadMap
[08:44] <fabbione> Unfrgiven: the thing you are searching for is called kopt in /boot/grub/menu.lst
[08:44] <`anthony> fabbione: Ok. Will log a bug.
[08:45] <fabbione> `anthony: thanks
[08:46] <`anthony> fabbione: Is it best to log a single bug per non-working thing, or one mega-bug?
[08:46] <`anthony> e.g. battery monitoring doesn't work, that sorta thing.
[08:47] <fabbione> `anthony: one bug per problem
[08:47] <fabbione> it's easier to keep track of the bug status
[08:52] <`anthony> fabbione: no probs. ta.
[08:52] <fabbione> np
[09:05] <pitti> Morning
[09:05] <fabbione> morning pitti
[09:20] <Unfrgiven> fabbione: thanks
[09:39] <ivoks> firefox has issue in ubuntu
[09:39] <bob2>  /topic
[09:40] <ivoks> but this is development issue :)
[09:41] <jsgotangco> you can file a bug
[09:42] <ivoks> i will now
[09:45] <doko> good morning
[09:46] <pitti> Hi doko
[09:46] <jsgotangco> pitti, doko hi
[10:11] <pitti> Hi mvo 
[10:11] <mvo> hey pitti 
[10:11] <mvo> morning all
[10:12] <jsgotangco> hey
[10:12] <pitti> tseng: somebody wanted to update ethereal for -security, was that you?
[10:14] <mvo> ping doko
[10:19] <Kamion> pitti: locale stuff> I'd have produced a cut-down one-liner version of /usr/sbin/validlocale, myself
[10:19] <Kamion> pitti: (validlocale is in base-config - which is awkward - and is *nearly* what you want, but not entirely)
[10:19] <pitti> Kamion: in the meantime I found a shell-only solution
[10:20] <doko> mvo: pong
[10:20] <pitti> Kamion: if [ "$(locale 2>&1 >/dev/null)" ] ; then echo invalid locale; fi
[10:20] <Kamion> mm, I was dubious about capturing stderr rather than having something that looked only at return codes
[10:20] <pitti> Kamion: yeah, I already finished my testlocale.c at that point, too :-)
[10:21] <Kamion> you should be able to do it in perl in a lot less code :)
[10:22] <pitti> Kamion: yeah, in the new architecture I have perl, but yesterday I fixed that bug in the Sarge version
[10:25] <Kamion> if ! perl -MPOSIX -e 'exit(setlocale(LC_ALL, "") ? 0 : 1)' 2>/dev/null; then echo invalid locale; fi
[10:41] <Lathiat> sheesh, people complkainign cus they didnt get their shipit cds 2 weeks after they ordered them
[10:42] <jdub> people seem to think it's like amazone
[10:42] <Lathiat> yeh i guess
[10:46] <cartman> heh
[10:46] <cartman> its 2-3 months and still no Warty cds here ;)
[10:48] <Treenaks> cartman: #define here
[10:48] <cartman> Treenaks: well I got ADSL now so its not important but here == Turkiye
[10:48] <Treenaks> cartman: strange
[10:49] <cartman> well page said they shipped it to the guys who will ship it to me
[10:49] <cartman> :/
[10:49] <jdub> cartman: you probably ordered them after the switch to hoary only mode :)
[10:49] <cartman> jdub: hehe nay :)
[10:50] <cartman> international posting is not perfect so its expected anyway :/
[10:50] <cartman> people tend to steal and do other stuff
[10:51] <cartman> but Microsoft Germany sent my Windows 2000 sp4 cds correctly, lol ;)
[11:12] <pitti> mvo: btw, in your language selector, how did you name the two colums?
[11:13] <pitti> mvo: "Desktop translation" and "Content creation"?
[11:13] <mvo> pitti: they are named "Translation" and "Input", but's it done with glade, so it can be easily changed
[11:13] <pitti> mvo: okay, that sounds fine, and short enough 
[11:14] <mvo> pitti: I just took it from your mock-up (or was it sebs?) :) I will probably add a label with some (short) text at the top of the dialog 
[11:15] <pitti> mvo: yeah, a bubble help would be cool
[11:15] <pitti> or some label, even better
[11:16] <mvo> pitti: tooltips are not support in the gtktreeview, this caused me some annoyance already :/ 
[11:16] <pitti> mvo: oh, an explanatory label is certainly fine
[11:16] <mvo> pitti: the label is the cheap way to work around that
[11:16] <pitti> mvo: it's also more obvious
[11:17] <mvo> pitti: yes
[11:18] <jsgotangco> mdz, hello
[11:19] <mvo> jsgotangco: mdz is probably sleeping now
[11:19] <jsgotangco> yeah i just remembered
[11:19] <Burgundavia> is 2:20 for him, just like me
[11:20] <jsgotangco> hah and you're still awake and just starting up
[11:20] <Burgundavia> mdz has a job, I don't
[11:22] <JaneW> also mdz is on leave now :P
[11:22] <bob2> so no calling him to tell him you have gtk bugs
[11:22] <bob2> that what seb is for
[11:23] <bob2> :-)
[11:23] <Lathiat> haha
[11:23] <seb128> yeah, some people keep filling bugs to ask a fork of the upstream UI
[11:23] <seb128> that's not going to happen
[11:23] <seb128> we don't want to fork packages from upstream
[11:30] <JaneW> anyone have a working e-mail address for Colin Applegate? (edubuntu)
[11:31] <Mithrandir> JaneW: colin.a@gmail.com, apparently.
[11:31] <JaneW> hmmm, just used that one '
[11:31] <JaneW> Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently'
[11:32] <Mithrandir> it's the only UID on his GPG key.
[11:33] <Mithrandir> JaneW: try askin Jeffrey Elkner (jeff@elkner.net), one of the people whom he was at UDU together with?
[11:34] <JaneW> Mithrandir: I'll do that thanks.
[11:34] <jsgotangco> Jeff is colin's teacher i believe
[11:40] <JaneW> has anyone been able to open the link to keybuk's UDU photos?
[11:40] <Burgundavia> JaneW, link?
[11:40] <Treenaks> where?
[11:41] <jsgotangco> keybuk nope still waiting
[11:41] <JaneW> http://www.netsplit.com/travel/2005/australia/
[11:43] <Burgundavia> JaneW, I just got through
[11:44] <JaneW> hmm...
[11:44] <jsgotangco> ohhh now were in
[11:45] <JaneW> :( *sulk*
[11:45] <JaneW> ooh looks like we have blast off...
[11:45] <Burgundavia> took as age thought
[11:48] <jsgotangco> oohh Keybuk did the bridge climb
[11:50] <Burgundavia> ah crap, I need a #ubuntu op
[11:50] <Burgundavia> nev mind
[11:50] <JaneW> man he did everything!
[11:51] <jsgotangco> JaneW, he's loaded heh
[11:52] <jdub> hrm, can anyone tell what keybuk is using for his album?
[11:52] <jdub> will have to ask next time he's around
[11:52] <bob2> custom stuff, of course
[11:52] <mjg59> Australia is expensive? Wow.
[11:53] <Burgundavia> for someone from za, yes
[11:54] <jsgotangco> well au is expensive for me too
[11:54] <Treenaks> mjg59: next ubuntu conf?
[11:54] <Treenaks> :)
[11:54] <JaneW> mjg59: yes ZA is cheap for most ppl
[11:54] <Burgundavia> uk is freaking expensive for everybody
[11:54] <JaneW> Burgundavia: YES
[11:55] <Burgundavia> the measly canuck dollar didn't go very far
[11:55] <JaneW> whereas Thailand is cheap for everybody, and virtually free for some...
[11:55] <jsgotangco> everything is expensive for me :(
[11:55] <Treenaks> jsgotangco: from where?
[11:56] <mjg59> Tollef never understands it when we talk about places being expensive
[11:56] <jsgotangco> Treenaks, Philippines
[11:56] <Treenaks> mjg59: that must mean Norway is expensive as hell
[11:56] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:56] <mjg59> Treenaks: Oh, yes. Very.
[11:56] <JaneW> jsgotangco: cool lets go there next! :))
[11:56] <Mithrandir> mjg59: the UK has virtually free beer
[11:56] <Treenaks> mjg59: I know the UK is expensive.. but most countries aren't (Netherlands)
[11:56] <Burgundavia> where is the next dev conference?
[11:57] <jsgotangco> probably somewhere in south america or europe
[11:57] <mjg59> Norway is ridiculously expensive compared to the UK
[11:57] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: .nl isn't that cheap, really.
[11:57] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: for me it is
[11:57] <Simira> mjg59: you think? I don't think so, actually.
[11:58] <Simira> mjg59: some daily food are maybe a little cheaper, due to the EU-rules
[11:58] <ajmitch_> jsgotangco: you'd just need to save up a bit
[11:59] <mjg59> Simira: Based on my experience, yes
[11:59] <jdub> pitti: you seem busy :(
[11:59] <pitti> jdub: always, why? :-)
[11:59] <mjg59> Conferences in Norway always cost me more than elsewhere...
[11:59] <Mithrandir> mjg59: eating out is usually expensive in .no, for instance.  That's one of the things you end up doing when at conferences.
[11:59] <jdub> pitti: lots of yucky USN action
[11:59] <Simira> mjg59: ok, I wouldn't know. And I don't drink much beer :p
[11:59] <pitti> oh, yes...
[12:00] <pitti> jdub: right now I'm processing the flood of universe security updates from astharot; I will be glad if he can upload himself :)
[12:00] <jdub> heh :-)
[12:00] <astharot> ;)
[12:01] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: for that reason we should try The Netherlands ;) it's not noticably more expensive than Mataro was (eating out/beer-wise)
[12:02] <seb128> elmo: gwget2 sync please
[12:02] <Simira> Mithrandir: if we're going to Holland, we're definitely doing a week, or at least a weekend extra!
[12:02] <Mithrandir> Simira: oh, any particular reason?
[12:03] <Simira> Mithrandir: I like it there. I spent a week there in -98, and I want to go there again. There are a lot of nice places to see. But the flowerpark you'll have to do on your own, if you want to go there. It's boring.
[12:03] <Mithrandir> heh
[12:04] <Treenaks> flowers are very boring..
[12:04] <Mithrandir> flowers are very nice.
[12:04] <Treenaks> I work next to the Amsterdam Flower Market.. they get boring
[12:04] <Simira> Mithrandir: sure, but a large park of tulips are sort of boring after 10 minutes...
[12:05] <Mithrandir> Simira: they're not very talkative, no..
[12:05] <Burgundavia> pitti, seen that messy bug with ff1.0.4?
[12:06] <pitti> Burgundavia: yeah, but the patches are not yet public
[12:06] <Simira> Mithrandir: we kan go to the bathing place at where we lived last time. It's so cool! I don't remember the name now, though...
[12:06] <pitti> (which is stupid, but we can't help it)
[12:06] <jsgotangco> tulips!
[12:06] <jsgotangco> windmills!
[12:06] <jsgotangco> heh
[12:06] <Treenaks> jsgotangco: drugs!
[12:06] <jsgotangco> hah
[12:06] <Treenaks> (to finish the stereotype)
[12:07] <jsgotangco> thats too subtle
[12:07] <jsgotangco> shrooms!
[12:07] <elmo> seb128: done
[12:07] <Treenaks> Simira: bathing place?
[12:08] <Treenaks> Simira: you mean Noordwijk or Katwijk or something (a coastal town)?
[12:09] <seb128> elmo: thanks
[12:09] <Simira> Treenaks: we lived at this camping place/hut rental place which had a indoor pools and stuff, looked like a tropical forest. :p Half an hours drive west of Zwolle, iirc,,,
[12:09] <seb128> JaneW: is there any explanations for the indicators for BreezyGoals ... ie, what is "Pending"? Pending what? how is that different of WIP?
[12:10] <Treenaks> Simira: oh.. my family comes from that area :)
[12:10] <seb128> and "TBC"?
[12:11] <Mithrandir> Seveas: pending implementation, afaik.
[12:11] <seb128> Mithrandir: I guess that's for me ... how is that different of WIP?
[12:12] <Mithrandir> seb128: no idea.  Prod JaneW for a legend, I guess.
[12:12] <fabbione> Mithrandir: you are the procmail expert, aren't you? :)=
[12:12] <jdub> Mithrandir: WE DEMAND THAT YOU ANSWER!
[12:12] <seb128> that's what I was doing :)
[12:12] <JaneW> seb128: oh dear I think I am confussing ppl, I'll put some explaining text in the page
[12:12] <jsgotangco> To Be Continued? 
[12:12] <Simira> Treenaks: if you have an url for me to a decent country-map, I'll try to find the place.
[12:13] <JaneW> seb128: but pending means specs done, and activity is about to start...
[12:13] <seb128> JaneW: confussing ppl? how so? :)
[12:13] <Mithrandir> fabbione: given that I don't even use procmail, I doubt it.
[12:13] <seb128> JaneW: k
[12:13] <seb128> thanks
[12:13] <seb128> JaneW: and TBC?
[12:13] <Mithrandir> to be completed
[12:13] <Simira> Mithrandir: oh, they have a dolphin-park!
[12:13] <fabbione> Mithrandir: oh ok :)
[12:13] <Mithrandir> Simira: dolphins are nice.
[12:14] <seb128> k, thanks
[12:14] <JaneW> seb128: that was just the default, before you guys update it, literally means 'to be completed'
[12:14] <JaneW> THANKS!
[12:14] <Simira> Mithrandir: I think they have penguins as well ;) At least sea lions and lots of other stuff
[12:14] <seb128> JaneW: k, so the TBC need to be changed ... what I wanted to know, thanks :)
[12:14] <JaneW> (notice my excitement and happiness?) :)
[12:14] <Mithrandir> Simira: I've been there, I think.
[12:15] <Treenaks> Simira: Harderwijk
[12:17] <dholbach> hellas
[12:17] <Simira> Mithrandir: That's unfear! When? I wanted to show it to you!
[12:17] <Mithrandir> Simira: ten-ish years ago.
[12:17] <pitti> Moin daniels 
[12:17] <pitti> Moin dholbach , I meant
[12:18] <jsgotangco> bye folks have  a great weekend (me going out of town)
[12:18] <dholbach> hey pitti
[12:20] <Kamion> hmmm, adding local packages to the desktop task in the CD builder is non-trivial at the moment
[12:20] <ajmitch_> hi dholbach 
[12:20] <dholbach> hey ajmitch_ :-)
[12:26] <jdub> mdz: ping
[12:27] <Burgundavia> jdub, is 3am here
[12:28] <Burgundavia> jdub, also "JaneW also mdz is on leave now :P"
[12:31] <Mithrandir> Burgundavia: that just means he'll be working during the night instead of during both day and night. :P
[12:31] <Burgundavia> lol
[12:37] <Lathiat> where can i find hct?
[12:39] <pitti> Lathiat: Keybuk promised to package it soon
[12:40] <Lathiat> can i even get the source or?
[12:40] <pitti> Lathiat: I don't think so, not right now
[12:41] <Lathiat> ok
[12:41] <Lathiat> damn all these closed projects
[12:41] <pitti> it will be open source once it actually works 
[12:41] <pitti> but they don't want to release alpha software
[12:42] <Lathiat> yeh im just griping additioanlly about  the fact i cant get to launchpad yet the specs are there and linked off all the UDU pages. :)
[12:42] <Lathiat> (but i understand)
[12:43] <Lathiat> geez jdub is right, these people do think shipit is amazon
[12:43] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, maybe shipit needs to be more clear that it might take a while
[12:44] <Lathiat> im pretty sure it does
[12:44] <Burgundavia> some people are morons
[12:44] <Lathiat> yeh well
[12:44] <Lathiat> such is life unfortunately
[12:45] <Burgundavia> have you seen the breezy forum?
[12:45] <Burgundavia> all the new package requests
[12:45] <Lathiat> interesting.. i ended up with 3 warty shipments and only 2 were logged on the shipit database
[12:45] <Lathiat> i only ordered 2 anyway, a 3rd shipment just ended up at my door one morning. :)
[12:45] <Burgundavia> warty is still useful
[12:45] <Lathiat> but i was happy i needed more anyway
[12:45] <Kamion> Burgundavia: what a bizarre place to put new package requests
[12:45] <Burgundavia> Kamion, new defaults mostly
[12:46] <Burgundavia> and most of it is already being done or has been rejected as total crack
[12:46] <Lathiat> ugh
[12:46] <Lathiat> everyone whinging about breezy
[12:46] <Lathiat> NO SHIT POEPLE
[12:46] <Kamion> Burgundavia: nevertheless - why put requests somewhere developers generally don't pay much attention to?
[12:46] <Burgundavia> no idea
[12:46] <Burgundavia> Kamion, should I summarize for -devel? is that useful?
[12:47] <Kamion> not if it's total crack :)
[12:47] <Burgundavia> let me see if I can dig the useful bits out, stuff that hasn't been discussed
[12:48] <Lathiat> ubuntuforums is kinda like #ubuntu
[12:48] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:48] <Lathiat> blind leading the blind most of the time
[12:48] <Burgundavia> lots of noise
[12:51] <Burgundavia> Kamion, can you comment on this? 2. disable (!) the auto-testing of apt-repositories during the installation. it causes system-freezes with a lot of routers during the install process. 4.10 didn't have this feature and was painless to install. 5.04 was, sorry to say so, a catasptrophe in this respect. no newbie will be able to overcome this obstacle!!!
[12:52] <Burgundavia> in fact that whole comment --> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=142696&postcount=15
[12:52] <Kamion> Burgundavia: known bug
[12:52] <JaneW> brace yourselves
[12:52] <Burgundavia> Kamion, and the 1st comment on that comment?
[12:53] <pitti> bah, bloody gtk bug freezed my X
[12:53] <Kamion> Burgundavia: bogus
[12:53] <seb128> pitti: don't blame gtk
[12:53] <Burgundavia> Kamion, figured, but I thought I would ask
[12:53] <Burgundavia> Kamion, thanks
[12:53] <Kamion> Burgundavia: the claim about 4.10 makes no sense; 5.04 has not changed in this regard
[12:54] <Kamion> Burgundavia: comment #2 is bug #8265
[12:54] <Burgundavia> ok
[01:00] <doko> is there a way to lock a wiki package for editing?
[01:00] <doko> s/package/page
[01:05] <seb128> doko: when you start editing it the wiki locks the page for some time
[01:05] <seb128> doko: and the lock is updated when you "preview" your changes
[01:06] <seb128> ie: if you edit for some time do some previews during the edition
[01:07] <ogra> doko, you could write a scrip that constantly reloads the preview page, that would lock it permanently then ;)
[01:07] <ogra> script even
[01:13] <doko> hmm, not very convinced ...
[01:14] <dholbach> see you later
[01:15] <Kamion> mjg59: will you be able to test an HP CD image this afternoon?
[01:15] <pitti> mvo: btw, did you ask for a dbus reconnection patch?
[01:17] <Kamion> mjg59: I just had to add a few features to cdimage to allow adding more packages to the desktop seed, but it should all be good now
[01:18] <Kamion> mjg59: except - fuck. gnome-bluetooth, i810switch, and irda-utils are in hoary/universe. that's going to be fun
[01:21] <mjg59> Kamion: Blurgh. Probably not this afternoon, but I can manage this evening
[01:21] <Kamion> mjg59: ok
[01:22] <Kamion> mjg59: so far, I've built all the .debs, branched the seeds and debian-cd, given up on hacking germinate, hacked cdimage instead
[01:22] <mjg59> Heh :)
[01:24] <mjg59> Kamion: Actually, scratch that, no group meeting today so I can do a test
[01:24] <Kamion> mjg59: ok, cool. I'm doing a breezy CD image build first to make sure I haven't broken cdimage
[01:26] <Kamion> I'm just going to shove those packages from universe into the local archive by hand
[01:26] <Kamion> don't tell anyone
[01:26] <mjg59> Haha
[01:27] <chmj> hehehe
[01:27] <Kamion> and of course gnome-bluetooth has a bazillion dependencies
[01:28] <Kamion> madison-lite `dpkg -f gnome-bluetooth_0.5.1-1ubuntu7_i386.deb Depends | sed 's/, /\n/g' | cut -d' ' -f1` | grep hoary/universe
[01:34] <pitti> Kamion: speaking of madison, do you know a tool similar to madison which inspects /var/lib/apt/lists instead of a full mirror?
[01:34] <Mithrandir> pitti: madison-lite?
[01:34] <Kamion> mjg59: complete list of packages from universe appears to be: gnome-bluetooth i810switch irda-utils libbtctl1 libgnomebt0 libopenobex-1.0-0 python2.4-libbtctl
[01:35] <Kamion> pitti: apt-cache madison
[01:35] <pitti> Mithrandir: I thought it requires a mirror?
[01:35] <Mithrandir> pitti: just the Packages files.
[01:35] <pitti> Kamion: cooool, thanks
[01:52] <Kamion> seb128: reping, re gnome-themes installability?
[01:54] <mjg59> Kamion: Ok, sounds about right
[01:59] <seb128> Kamion: pong. What's wrong with it exactly?
[01:59] <seb128> Kamion: you spoke about gtk2-engines-crux IIRC, which is universe?
[01:59] <Kamion> seb128: it's not installable, same as last time I asked
[02:00] <Kamion> does it just need packages to be promoted from universe?
[02:00] <seb128> yep
[02:00] <Kamion> ah, thanks, that wasn't clear to me yesterday
[02:00] <Kamion> elmo: please promote gtk2-engines-{crux,lighthouseblue} to main
[02:02] <mvo> pitti: if you have the dbus-reconnect patch ported, please send it to me by mail
[02:02] <pitti> mvo: it just started to work three minutes ago :-)
[02:02] <mvo> pitti: :)
[02:02] <pitti> mvo: and now it even works all(most) of the time, unlike Hoary's patch, which failed for longer restarts
[02:05] <Kamion> nggg
[02:06] <Kamion> elmo: would it be possible to fix warty and hoary's Release files in the same way you did for breezy (adding restricted/debian-installer/...)? I'm trying to build hoary-plus-a-bit CD images fairly urgently, and can't due to apt complaining that those bits are missing from Release
[02:21] <pitti> mvo: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=46393&action=view
[02:23] <seb128> pitti: what bug is that?
[02:23] <elmo> Kamion: err, do i really have to?
[02:23] <pitti> seb128: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170894
[02:23] <seb128> elmo: I can change gnome-themes if you prefer
[02:23] <elmo> kamion: we've managed to avoid modifying a stable release after release so far?
[02:23] <elmo> seb128: not the promotions
[02:23] <pitti> seb128: g-v-m reconnection after dbus restart; I believe something similar is also required for gvfs
[02:23] <seb128> elmo: oh, k
[02:24] <seb128> pitti: yeah, I know the context, I was asking the number so I can ping upstream to get a comment on it :)
[02:24] <Kamion> elmo: alternatively, you could make apt stop caring about it?
[02:24] <Kamion> Failed to fetch file:/srv/cdimage.no-name-yet.com/ftp/dists/hoary/Release  Unable to find expected entry  restricted/debian-installer/binary-i386/Packages in Meta-index file (malformed Release file?)
[02:25] <pitti> seb128: erm, that _is_ upstream, isn't it?
[02:25] <Kamion> that looks pretty fatal
[02:25] <pitti> seb128: after I restart dbus, I don't get the desktop/menu/mount applet magic any more
[02:25] <seb128> pitti: yeah, but even upstream, pinging on IRC to get comment on bugzilla is useful :)
[02:25] <pitti> seb128: killall nautilus g-v-d doesn't help
[02:25] <pitti> seb128: it works again after logout/login
[02:25] <pef> hello
[02:25] <seb128> pitti: seems to be a gamin issue
[02:25] <Kamion> elmo: I'd be happy with a workaround, but I have no idea what a workaround would look like
[02:26] <pitti> seb128: okay, nice. it would be nice to eventually get all those crappy patches upstream, it's a mess
[02:26] <seb128> pitti: this magic is gamin
[02:26] <pitti> seb128: erm, gam_server listens to dbus???
[02:26] <seb128> pitti: no, but menu changes, etc are file monitors
[02:27] <seb128> I don't get which dbus impact on this
[02:27] <pitti> seb128: so what do I have to kill to get it back? :-)
[02:27] <seb128> pitti: try gam_server gnome-vfs-daemon nautilus? 
[02:27] <pitti> already did that
[02:27] <seb128> with gam_server?
[02:28] <elmo> Kamion: s/you/mvo/? :P
[02:28] <pitti> seb128: yes
[02:28] <seb128> pitti: so no idea :(
[02:29] <pef> how can I help to fix the packages marked as "new changes from Debian require merging" in bugzilla ?
[02:29] <Kamion> elmo: I think it happens whenever you try to do "apt-get update" with restricted/debian-installer in sources.list, so pretty fundamental
[02:30] <Kamion> pef: do you *really* want to? :-) It's very tedious work
[02:30] <Kamion> pef: all the instructions are in the bug reports
[02:30] <pef> Kamion: the patch applied without error
[02:31] <Kamion> pef: often patches apply without errors but need further attention - but unless you can upload to main, there's not much more you can do at that point
[02:31] <Kamion> pef: I suppose you could follow up to the bug saying so, but remember that much of that kind of work is already taken care of automatically for us
[02:31] <koke> is there any way to get the source for a wiki page without being logged in??
[02:31] <Kamion> koke: append /src to the URL, I think
[02:31] <pef> Kamion: ok, thank you for the infos ;)
[02:32] <elmo> kamion: how about I downgrade apt on little? :P
[02:32] <koke> Kamion: great! thanks
[02:32] <Kamion> pef: (the tool that generates those bugs tries its best to do the merge automatically; its results need to be reviewed for sanity)
[02:33] <Kamion> elmo: fine with me for now, but I would like to revisit this later
[02:33] <mvo> Kamion: what bit of apt need attention? (sorry, was away for lunch)
[02:34] <elmo> Kamion: do you need python-apt?
[02:34] <pef> Kamion: I will wait to have more experience
[02:34] <Kamion> mvo: I think apt's being correct actually :-)
[02:35] <elmo> being correct-for-the-sake-of-it's not helpful if it breaks with stable releases
[02:35] <Kamion> elmo: I don't *think* so
[02:35] <Kamion> (python-apt)
[02:36] <Kamion> mvo: the issue is that apt refuses to download the Packages file for the restricted/debian-installer component in hoary because it's not mentioned in dists/hoary/Release
[02:37] <Kamion> mvo: is there any option I can pass to make it not care?
[02:37] <elmo> Kamion: germinate?
[02:38] <Kamion> bleh, of course, so it does
[02:38] <mvo> Kamion: no, but we could make it part of --allow-unauthentticated
[02:38] <Kamion> mvo: I think that would be good
[02:40] <mvo> Kamion: what is the easiest way to reproduce the bug
[02:40] <jordi> mvo: dude?
[02:41] <jordi> mvo: what's with this synaptic-kde desktop file that appeared in Dbian?
[02:42] <Kamion> mvo: echo 'deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hoary restricted/debian-installer' > /tmp/sources.list; apt-get -o Dir::Etc::SourceList=/tmp/sources.list update
[02:43] <mvo> Kamion: thanks
[02:44] <mvo> jordi: gnome 2.8 does not support "OnlyShowIn=KDE" :(
[02:45] <elmo> Kamion: I've changed warty + hoary for now, but I'd like to revert it at some stage, assuming we can fix apt on little
[02:47] <jordi> mvo: ugh. Maybe you can move away the file temporarily for Debian.
[02:47] <Treenaks> ogra: you made them
[02:47] <ogra> why the hell do they have the manpages in 3 locations ?
[02:47] <jordi> I wish we had backported that to 2.8
[02:47] <ogra> Treenaks, i didnt
[02:47] <ogra> Treenaks, i just fix them
[02:47] <Treenaks> ogra: hm, ok
[02:47] <jordi> mvo: is it ok that it doesn't call gksu anyway?
[02:49] <ogra> Treenaks, its just a horrible mix of debhelper , cdbs and native installing by makefile for the manpages.... they are originally packaged by the debian mono team
[02:49] <trulux> heya!
[02:49] <trulux> hey ajmitch_ 
[02:54] <ajmitch_> hello trulux 
[02:55] <pitti> Hi trulux 
[02:56] <trulux> hey pitti 
[02:56] <trulux> pitti: I'm ready to work on everything again, gonna get a new TFT this afternoon
[02:56] <pitti> neat
[02:56] <trulux> ajmitch_: what's up? ;)
[02:56] <Treenaks> Seveas: make up your mind ;)
[02:57] <ajmitch_> trulux: a little busy, and I'm off to bed now
[02:57] <pitti> trulux: the kernel patch for /tmp races would be nice and should be easy; and maybe you can update the SELinux packages to breezy?
[02:57] <trulux> pitti: going to fix somre symbol-related stuff for the Breezy kernel security framework
[02:57] <trulux> pitti: sure, one thing:
[02:58] <trulux> ajmitch_: OK, sleep well. if you have sometime later to send me the fixed pam packages, it would rock (well, you rocked the house already, just that we need to update the packages ;) )
[02:58] <trulux> pitti: http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/patches/security/kern-security-1.patch
[03:00] <pitti> trulux: ROCK
[03:00] <mvo> jordi: the kde-version of the desktop file does not use gksu but X-KDE-SubstituteUID
[03:00] <Seveas> Treenaks, hm?
[03:01] <trulux> pitti: I will fix some things on it and implement some randomization stuff
[03:01] <pitti> trulux: please keep the patches apart
[03:01] <pitti> trulux: is it possible to have one patch for your general framework, one for /tmp, one for randomization, etc?
[03:01] <pitti> trulux: this way it is easier to manager and also it might be easier to include upstream
[03:02] <trulux> pitti: right, split up is easy.
[03:02] <trulux> pitti: I'll get over it
[03:02] <pitti> trulux: did you talk with upstream about this "framework" approach?
[03:02] <pitti> trulux: it makes much sense, but maybe upstream wants it a bit different
[03:02] <pitti> trulux: would be nice to get this adopted 
[03:02] <trulux> pitti: not really, they now on http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/vsecurity/ which is a better candidate
[03:03] <trulux> pitti: LSM-based, runtime configuration by sysfs (no more sysctl ****), etc
[03:03] <Treenaks> Seveas: join/quit/join/quit
[03:03] <trulux> pitti: I've been making it compliant to 2.6.11 and added quite a bit features to it, some are still not ready, but it works well
[03:04] <pitti> trulux: btw, we are going with 2.6.12
[03:05] <pitti> trulux: let's say on monday or tuesday we two could actually build an ubuntu kernel with these patches
[03:05] <pitti> trulux: is that fine for you?
[03:05] <trulux> pitti: sure
[03:06] <trulux> pitti: the point on vsec is that we have no portability issues
[03:06] <trulux> pitti: you may want to test it
[03:06] <trulux> pitti: but we'll work out the generic sec. framework first
[03:06] <pitti> trulux: vsec?
[03:06] <trulux> pitti: http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/vsecurity/
[03:07] <pitti> ah, neat
[03:13] <trulux> pitti: did you have a look at the spec. pdf?
[03:25] <Nafallo> pitti: you want two diffs if the version haven't changed in warty?
[03:26] <Nafallo> pitti: (UniverseSecurity) :-)
[03:26] <pitti> hm?
[03:26] <pitti> Nafallo: you mean Warty and Hoary have the same version?
[03:26] <Nafallo> pitti: yepp.
[03:27] <pitti> Nafallo: yeah, for now we dodged this by incrementing the hoary version by 0.1 (no other changes, just a new changelog entry)
[03:28] <Nafallo> pitti: do we really need to? shouldn't we just target them at {warty,hoary}-security with the same version number?
[03:28] <Nafallo> if the user dist-upgrade to hoary he will install the same package again otherwise.
[03:29] <Nafallo> pitti: for some context; libcdaudio, CAN-2005-0706 :-)
[03:30] <pitti> Nafallo: elmo doesn't want multi-release uploads
[03:32] <Nafallo> pitti: oki, I'm sure he has some reasons. it just can't follow the logic with that :-).
[03:42] <zyga> hello everyone :)
[03:42] <zyga> sunny day :)
[03:42] <Nafallo> zyga: indeed :-)
[03:53] <Kamion> elmo: thanks, and acknowledged
[03:56] <Nafallo> Baby: hi there! :-)
[03:56] <Baby> hi Nafallo :))
[04:08] <Mitario> hi everyone
[04:15] <Mithrandir> have fun
[04:37] <bluefoxicy> So
[04:37] <bluefoxicy> is this worth an Ubuntu Security Notice
[04:38] <bluefoxicy> that Intel processors with HyperThreading are vulnerable to an information disclosure bug that would allow an attacker to ie steal an RSA key while the key plaintext was in memory during a decryption algorithm?
[04:38] <bluefoxicy> in processor design, not in the design of the OS kernel.
[04:38] <pitti> bluefoxicy: ah, that one. We know about it, update is in the works
[04:38] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  :)
[04:38] <pitti> bluefoxicy: kernel patch (which disables HT for now) is ready, some guys are testing it
[04:39] <pitti> bluefoxicy: expect an USN at Tuesday
[04:39] <whiprush> jdub: ok, if you're going to give people "a beer from the fridge" then we need a cool beer bottle.
[04:39] <whiprush> with like, fridge written on it.
[04:39] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  "USN #2-42:  Intel is filled with morons, buy AMD"  :)
[04:39] <jdub> whiprush: dude, who wrote that?
[04:39] <jdub> whiprush: it was not me :)
[04:39] <pitti> seb128: any idea how a gnome package generally could produce a POT file?
[04:39] <pitti> seb128: g-v-m doesn't do it, so while I'm at changing it...
[04:39] <Lathiat> bluefoxicy: haha
[04:39] <pitti> seb128: (a lot of other packages don't either)
[04:40] <Lathiat> pitti: is that patch optional?
[04:40] <pitti> Lathiat: HT off by default to be safe
[04:40] <pitti> Lathiat: you can certainly enable it again using a kernel parameter
[04:40] <seb128> pitti: "cd po; make update-po" ?
[04:40] <Lathiat> but can you turn it on without compiling..
[04:40] <Lathiat> oh right
[04:40] <Lathiat> pitti: cool.
[04:41] <seb128> pitti: or "cd po; make <translation-domaine>.po"
[04:41] <bluefoxicy> Lathiat:  doesn't AMD have dual-cores AMD64 now?  :)  The statement was quite feasible
[04:42] <pitti> seb128: ah, I'll try the second, the first one regenerates all po files, I don't want that
[04:42] <seb128> pitti: ups, .pot I mean for the second
[04:42] <Lathiat> bluefoxicy: yeh they wont be out till q4 tho
[04:42] <Lathiat> i hear the xbox 360 has a tri-core 3.2GHz powerpc :\
[04:42] <bluefoxicy> cool
[04:42] <pitti> seb128: any idea how to teach that to cdbs gnome.mk in a generic way?
[04:42] <Lathiat> 10 points to the first person to get macosx running on it
[04:43] <bluefoxicy> Lathiat:  any socket 756 d/cs?
[04:43] <pitti> seb128: otherwise we have to change a shitload of packages to generate pot files
[04:43] <bluefoxicy> err, socket 754
[04:43] <pitti> seb128: po/$ make <domain>.pot works, thanks
[04:43] <Lathiat> bluefoxicy: its drop-in apparently
[04:44] <bluefoxicy> Lathiat:  drop-in for an FX socket 939 or an athlon 64 socket 754 though
[04:44] <seb128> pitti: probably grab GETTEXT_PACKAGE value from configure and do the make
[04:44] <Lathiat> bluefoxicy: unsure
[04:44] <Lathiat> probably 939
[04:44] <pitti> seb128: yeah, that's the idea; maybe we can add it to gnome.mk
[04:44] <pitti> seb128: I'll try that first
[04:44] <seb128> pitti: implementing to cdbs should be easy, poke jbailey about it :)
[04:44] <pitti> oh, right ... delegate :-)
[04:45] <bluefoxicy> jailbait what
[04:45] <seb128> I mean he knows how cdbs work, probably a 10min job for him
[04:45] <seb128> not need to start reading the code :)
[04:45] <pitti> seb128: actually, gnome.mk doesn't look very scary
[04:45] <seb128> right too
[04:45] <pitti> seb128: I try to do a patch for gnome.mk, then you can try it on your packages, if it works, we ask jbailey to integrate it
[04:45] <seb128> rock
[04:46] <pitti> seb128: cdbs has a weird build system, I tried to patch it once, but failed horribly
[04:46] <seb128> yeah
[04:46] <seb128> cdbs2 should be nicer :)
[04:46] <pitti> seb128: how many of the gnome pkgs would we cover if we patched cdbs to do the POT stuff?
[04:47] <pitti> (50%? 90%?)
[04:47] <seb128> 90%
[04:47] <pitti> cool, that helps a lot
[04:50] <seb128> pitti: k. I'm away for ~1h, if you need something let me know, I'll catch up then
[04:50] <pitti> seb128: I will be away in 70 minutes :-) so enjoy your weekend
[04:50] <seb128> thanks, you too!
[04:53] <^rob^> seb128: when you spec out the places integration, do you think you might mention picking up the appropriate right click entries so that users can right click to eject disks and the like?
[04:54] <Lathiat> yeh thatd be nice, atm the easiest way to eject a cd is to use the diskmounter applet
[04:59] <pitti> carlos: here?
[05:01] <carlos> pitti, yes
[05:01] <pitti> carlos: do you have a list of all source packages which don't have a pot file?
[05:02] <carlos> nohar, I don't have that list
[05:02] <carlos>  s/nohar/no/
[05:02] <carlos> pitti, but I have the information
[05:02] <carlos> it's a matter of parse the mail logs
[05:02] <pitti> carlos: is it possible somehow to generate this automatically for every day?
[05:02] <pitti> and publish it on some webpage
[05:03] <pitti> carlos: I'd like to modify gnome.mk (cdbs), which should at least catch all gnome pacakges
[05:03] <carlos> hmm
[05:03] <pitti> carlos: but we need a way to keep track of which packages are still affected
[05:03] <carlos> I could try to improve the output of the log so we can parse it from procmail...
[05:04] <carlos> pitti, could you do the procmail part?
[05:04] <pitti> carlos: I can help you with that, sure
[05:04] <carlos> so I send you a copy of the mail
[05:04] <carlos> with the tags you need there so you can ignore the other crap output
[05:05] <pitti> carlos: where do these mails come from?
[05:05] <carlos> pitti, from ubuntu's servers
[05:05] <pitti> carlos: OTOH, I could probably be faster if I just look at the tarballs
[05:06] <pitti> carlos: I already have a script which compiles a list of the recent tarballs and does stuff with them
[05:06] <carlos> pitti, then it's the same
[05:06] <pitti> carlos: should be easy to generate the list
[05:06] <pitti> carlos: okay, thanks anyway
[05:07] <carlos> pitti, np, ping me if you need help
[05:07] <pitti> okay, I'll do
[05:25] <Nafallo> Mithrandir: we had :-)
[05:42] <jordi> mvo: aha, that's cool
[06:08] <pitti> bye everybody, have a nice weekend
[06:11] <seb128> nice WE pitti
[06:11] <seb128> ^rob^: there is a bug upstream about this
[06:12] <seb128> jordi: what's cool?
[06:18] <Kamion> elmo: reping, about the gtk2-engines-{crux,lighthouseblue} promotions - are those problematic?
[06:24] <Kamion> $ telnet cdimage.ubuntu.com 80
[06:24] <Kamion> Trying 82.211.81.176...
[06:24] <Kamion> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused
[06:24] <ogra> whoops
[06:25] <Lathiat> omg someone broke teh intarweb
[06:25] <Kamion> yes thank you
[06:30] <luis_> I can't get to cdimage either, FWIW; I was actually just going to look and see if there are breezy liveCDs and ask if there is an ETA for those.
[06:30] <Lathiat> starting early luis
[06:30] <Lathiat> rather than a last minute rush :)
[06:30] <Lathiat> luis_: i doubt it, theres still a few issues with the install cd too 
[06:32] <luis_> Lathiat: indeed
[06:32] <luis_> want to play with latest bits + sabayon
[06:32] <Lathiat> cool
[06:32] <luis_> which I'd assume installs on the older CD
[06:32] <luis_> but I've been too lazy to try that yet ;)
[06:33] <Kamion> luis_: there are no breezy live CDs yet, no; I've been concentrating on the install CD, and ubuntu-desktop isn't installable yet which makes producing live CDs a non-starter anyway
[06:33] <Kamion> I suspect the first test release will be install-CD-only
[06:33] <luis_> OK
[06:33] <luis_> I'll just play with upgrading a hoary liveCD to get the test bits I need
[06:33] <Kamion> that should mostly work, yeah
[06:36] <jbailey> JaneW: There?
[06:40] <tarvid> 6 desktop installs with general good results
[06:40] <tarvid> i want to try a server next
[06:40] <tarvid> any hints on where to start?
[06:41] <Lathiat> type 'server' at the cd boot prompt
[06:41] <^rob^>  /join #apache
[06:41] <^rob^> doh!
[06:41] <tarvid> any refs on where to go next?
[06:41] <Lathiat> tarvid: just install like normal
[06:41] <Lathiat> and you gate a barebones system basically
[06:43] <tarvid> apache mysql php postfix freeradius ssh ftp courier is the usual stuff
[06:44] <tarvid> ubuntuguide has a lot of specific advice on servers, looking for a general treatment
[06:44] <Lathiat> ugh ubuntuguide
[06:45] <tarvid> why ugh?
[06:45] <Lathiat> it has a habbit of recommending bad things
[06:45] <tarvid> ah!
[06:45] <tarvid> is there a list of good things from a server perspective?
[06:46] <Lathiat> generally people just need what they want
[06:46] <dredg> that really depends on what you want your server to do
[06:46] <Lathiat> i guess some 'better' recommended programs would be good
[06:46] <Lathiat> i mean i use apache2 for web, proftpd for web (altho im looking at moving to vsftpd), postfix for mail, dovecot for pop3/imap
[06:47] <Nafallo> vsftpd rock! :-)
[06:48] <dredg> ftp should be done away with.
[06:48] <Lathiat> yeh i hear good things about vsftpd
[06:48] <Lathiat> so im going to look at it
[06:48] <Lathiat> ive just used proftpd for a long time and it seems to work well
[06:49] <tarvid> i host 150 web sites - telling people to use sftp is fine - forcing them is not
[06:49] <Lathiat> yeh
[06:49] <Lathiat> Nafallo: unfrotuantely php4-mysql is in universe
[06:50] <tarvid> i am not sure how to choose between versions, currently mysql 4.0.x is working better for me than 4.1.x
[06:50] <Nafallo> Lathiat: php4-pgsql isn't ;-)
[06:50] <Kamion> often if there are two versions of something in the distribution it's because it's not clear which is better yet
[06:51] <Lathiat> Nafallo: heh
[06:51] <Kamion> the later one might be experimental, say
[06:51] <Nafallo> postgresql rocks! :-)
[06:52] <Lathiat> yeh that one doesnt work so well for customers either tho
[06:52] <tarvid> exactly
[06:54] <tarvid> also want to replace a nat box
[06:54] <koke> is there any known issue with libpng in breezy??
[06:54] <Lathiat> koke: someone mentioned something earlier
[06:55] <Lathiat> no idea of its accuracy
[06:55] <jbailey> koke: Have you looked in bugzilla? =)
[06:55] <Lathiat> jbailey: have you fixed my headers bug? =)
[06:55] <dilinger> jbailey: have you stared into the abyss that is cdbs2?
[06:55] <jbailey> Lathiat: I haven't done the lkh upload yet.
[06:55] <jbailey> dilinger: Is it an abyss now? =(
[06:55] <koke> jbailey: I only see 9800
[06:55] <Lathiat> jbailey: excuses!
[06:56] <dilinger> jbailey: heh, i'm trying to keep it from becoming that..
[06:56] <Lathiat> cdbs is the shit
[06:56] <jbailey> dilinger: Oh good. =)
[06:57] <jbailey> dilinger: I'll be back home next week.  Far easier to hack there.
[06:57] <Lathiat> heh
[06:58] <dilinger> sounds like the sort of thing that would run very very hot
[06:58] <luis_> jbailey: getting your tubes tied is more reliable and less likely to induce a hernia
[06:58] <ogra> jbailey, dont do it now.... there is a mobile version of the amd64 underway...
[06:58] <zyga> dilinger: not really
[06:58] <ogra> dilinger, t does ;)
[06:58] <luis_> jbailey: or did you actually want a laptop and not sterilization?
[06:58] <ogra> at least mine here
[06:58] <jbailey> dilinger: I have a p3 900 without frequency scaling, I can't see if being hotter than this...
[06:58] <jbailey> luis_: *lol*
[06:59] <Lathiat> i had a p3 266 up until 4 months ago
[06:59] <ogra> jbailey, mine is constantly at 50 degree 
[06:59] <Lathiat> it was hotter than my 2ghz pentium-m
[06:59] <jbailey> luis_: Is sterilisation from laptops usually permanent?  I thought it was just like...
[06:59] <dilinger> jbailey: yea, my celeron 600 used to burn my legs.  my 1.3ghz centrino's been really nice
[06:59] <ogra> jbailey, if i compile something it raises to 70-80
[06:59] <jbailey> wait a sec, this is starting to sound like #debian-devel, sorry. =)
[06:59] <Lathiat> my cpu sits at ~50
[06:59] <Lathiat> but its not that hot on your laptop unless your running at 2ghz and doing stuff 
[07:00] <luis_> my fault :)
[07:00] <tarvid> thanks for your help, i have a million more questions but i will go do a server install and come back
[07:00] <dilinger> jbailey: i could post some SA links to make up for ari's lack of presence here, if you like ;)
[07:00] <ogra> Lathiat, ~50 at 800Mhz
[07:00] <Lathiat> well mines ~50 at 600mhz
[07:00] <Lathiat> but itl stay around 50 at 2ghz if your not doing anything
[07:00] <ogra> Lathiat, 70-80 @ > 800MHz
[07:00] <jbailey> Where do you measure the temperature?
[07:00] <Lathiat> ogra: mmm :\
[07:01] <ogra> jbailey, /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRC/temperature
[07:01] <jbailey> ah, internal temp, not surface temperature.  That's better. =)
[07:01] <Lathiat> yeh my temps are internal
[07:01] <Lathiat> my graphics card sits on 70
[07:02] <Lathiat> 85 when doing 3d stuff
[07:02] <ogra> jbailey, i wrote a little trayicon showing it constantly...
[07:02] <Lathiat> (nvidia)
[07:02] <KaiL> Lathiat: 6800?
[07:02] <Lathiat> 5200
[07:02] <ogra> at 90 nmy laptop shuts down.... if i compile big stuff i have a cooling hairdryer handy ;)
[07:02] <KaiL> uh
[07:02] <Lathiat> ogra: haha
[07:02] <KaiL> how far does it go down in 2D?
[07:03] <Lathiat> what temperature?
[07:03] <ogra> Lathiat, seriously... :(
[07:03] <KaiL> yes
[07:03] <Lathiat> normal use it sits at 70
[07:03] <Lathiat> 73 atm
[07:03] <KaiL> that's a lot..
[07:03] <Lathiat> it doesnt feel that hot underneath
[07:03] <Lathiat> but i mean the fans only going at like 1000rpm
[07:03] <Lathiat> its definatley *warm* underneath tho
[07:04] <jbailey> It's something to think about when I'm looking at the laptop, though.  As long as it can keep itself cool, I rarely use it on my lap.
[07:04] <KaiL> that should be above 30W then, wow!
[07:04] <Lathiat> yeh my laptop is harldy ever on my lap
[07:04] <jbailey> But it's nice to have a box that I can wander around with and work in the kitchen, or watch a movie from bed.
[07:04] <Lathiat> but when it is, its not an issue
[07:04] <Lathiat> bed is a slight issue
[07:04] <Lathiat> cus the blanket cuddles it
[07:04] <Lathiat> block fans, holds heat
[07:04] <jbailey> But at UDU, I did wind up carrying it around on one arm.
[07:04] <jbailey> Lathiat: Yeah, I did that once.  All bad. =)
[07:04] <Lathiat> heh
[07:04] <Lathiat> but my laptop has vents on top
[07:05] <Lathiat> which is nice
[07:05] <jbailey> Have an end table now.
[07:05] <Lathiat> (as well as the bottom)
[07:05] <Lathiat> so if its blocked
[07:05] <Lathiat> its not cut off
[07:05] <Lathiat> sucks if you block the back exit tho
[07:05] <Lathiat> whats nice about my laptop
[07:05] <Lathiat> is that i can control the fan speed
[07:05] <Lathiat> off, low, high
[07:05] <Lathiat> so even if it thinks its fin
[07:05] <Lathiat> i can force it up high to keep it cooler
[07:14] <mako> ion3 in hoary sucks quite a bit
[07:14] <mako> i should fix this
[07:14] <mako> in breezy
[07:15] <ogra> mako, whats wrong with it ?
[07:15] <mako> ogra: loads of bugs that have been fixed in upstream.. some rather important features just don't work
[07:15] <ogra> oh
[07:15] <mako> to move a window, you tag it
[07:16] <mako> first, and then attach it
[07:16] <mako> and you can't tag windows :)
[07:16] <mako> rather a problem
[07:16] <ogra> ouch
[07:17] <mako> and the version in debian unstable FTBFS from breezy apparently
[07:18] <mako> it's rather experimental so i'd been building my own packages since early on and hadn't noticed it was so dire
[07:18] <ogra> mako, put them in universe ;)
[07:18] <dilinger> mako: on the subway yesterday, i recalled your blog entry about your passport.  i completely forgot about that during the keysigning, and now i can't remember whether i actually looked at your passport or not :)
[07:19] <mako> ogra: it's in universe.. 
[07:19] <mako> ogra: oh, you mean mine.. 
[07:19] <ogra> yeah !
[07:19] <mako> ogra: well, i'd like to find out why the new versions FTBFS first
[07:19] <mako> ogra: i'd prefer not to fork the debian package if possible.. so i don't have to keep maintaining this
[07:19] <ogra> probably norbert built in a lsb_version check against ubuntu ;)
[07:20] <mako> it's a xinerama/xorg issue
[07:20] <ogra> mako, but beware of norbert if you touch his package ;)
[07:20] <ogra> i already had the fun...
[07:20] <mako> it'll hit debian eventually
[07:20] <ogra> if xorg gets in, yes
[07:21] <mako> ogra: it's not an if, it's a when
[07:21] <ogra> heh, yep
[07:21] <mako> ogra: debian is not going to use xfree forever
[07:21] <ogra> hmm, not even with the new dpl ?
[07:21] <mako> especially not with the new dpl
[07:21] <mako> they may not use our packages
[07:22] <mako> i'm sure fabbione can speak to wahtever the latest plans are
[07:22] <Kamion> they are currently in the middle of auditing our packages and are likely to base stuff on them, AFAIK
[07:22] <mako> Kamion: that's great new.. last i heard it was a little up in the air
[07:22] <Kamion> well, this is just what I picked up from browsing debian-x
[07:22] <Kamion> so it may be total rubbish, but it looked promising to me :)
[07:23] <mako> so i got a new laptop
[07:23] <mako> but it powers off by itself
[07:23] <mako> apparently when the load is high
[07:23] <mako> so i underclocked it
[07:23] <Lathiat> ouch
[07:23] <mako> now, BOTH of my computers are underclocked
[07:24] <mako> unfortunately, i couldn't seem to find anything between 400mhz and max
[07:24] <mako> :)
[07:24] <Lathiat> :\
[07:25] <Kamion> elmo: please sync autopartkit 1.08 from unstable; OK to overwrite Ubuntu changes
[07:27] <ogra> mako, what kind of laptop ?
[07:32] <mako> ogra: thinkpad x21
[07:32] <mako> the acpi is completely borked too
[07:32] <mako> if i boot with acpi on, the network card doesn't work
[07:32] <ogra> mako, ah, ok, i thought some big amd64 thing
[07:32] <mako> eben moglen gave it to me :)
[07:32] <ogra> mako, there are special ibm acpi drivers...
[07:33] <mako> i gave him a pile of ubuntu cds
[07:33] <Kamion> mjg59: well, the CD installs fine. cdimage's web server seems to be dead, but try ftp://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/custom/20050513/
[07:33] <mako> yeah, i know.. i played with a little bit unsuccessfully.. i've been trying to get consumed on this and then have to work all weekend :)
[07:33] <Kamion> mjg59: it should also rsync very well against a hoary image, if you have one handy
[07:33] <Kamion> (rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/custom/20050513/)
[07:55] <madduck> would german-speaking developers who read iX (p. 20 in 6/2005) care to take a look at http://madduck.net/~madduck/scratch/ix-debian-ubuntu.msg ?
[07:56] <mako> madduck: what is ix?
[07:56] <mako> ogra: ^^
[07:56] <ogra> mako, reading already
[07:57] <ogra> mako, heard of heise ( german news site)
[07:57] <madduck> mako: germany's professional it magazine
[07:57] <ogra> they are the publisher
[07:57] <mako> ah, ok. cool
[07:57] <madduck> ogra: patches appreciated. :)
[07:58] <ogra> madduck, argh, you mentioned backports...
[07:58] <madduck> ogra: not good? why not?
[07:59] <ogra> because backports break your upgradeability.... dont have a QA review of several months and generally are evil...
[07:59] <jcole> hi guys
[07:59] <jcole> i've asked this before
[08:00] <madduck> ogra: i have not had any problem, but i am not set on mentioning it, so if you think i should take it out...
[08:00] <amu> madduck: backports arn't secu updated and activly maintained, except this nice text 
[08:00] <ogra> madduck, and backports are in no way official (in fact we are not very happy about it)
[08:00] <madduck> we == ubuntu?
[08:00] <jcole> i'd like to know how to do an ubuntu net-install (like debian installer/fedora kickstart/suse yast/etc.)
[08:00] <ogra> yep
[08:00] <madduck> jcole: FAI
[08:01] <ogra> jcole, kickstart is integrated in ubuntu
[08:01] <madduck> jcole: there was a post on the fai users list about how to do it with hoary
[08:01] <\sh> madduck: cool writing
[08:01] <madduck> ogra: well, tough. :) i bet there are also some out there who are not too happy with ubuntu.
[08:01] <madduck> <tongue in cheek>
[08:01] <ogra> jcole, in the installer as well as the gui tool
[08:01] <madduck> \sh: thanks.
[08:02] <ogra> madduck, might be, but we dont go and break their systems ;)
[08:02] <\sh> madduck: its one of the first professional opinion to this debian cs.
[08:02] <\sh> vs. ubuntu crap
[08:02] <madduck> \sh, ogra: tarzeau in #debian-devel said that I am not making enough of a difference between d and u users.
[08:02] <\sh> hmm..what difference?
[08:02] <madduck> \sh: http://debianbook.info -- if you want 605 pages of more non-polemic objective stuff. :)
[08:02] <\sh> debian u smokes gras and ubuntu users dope?
[08:03] <madduck> \sh: yeah, my point.
[08:03] <\sh> madduck: well, i read ians article about it...
[08:03] <madduck> let's share! you get some of my weed, i take some of your dope. :)
[08:03] <madduck> ians article?
[08:03] <\sh> ian murdock 
[08:03] <madduck> about my book? or what?
[08:03] <\sh> no
[08:04] <\sh> w8
[08:04] <madduck> (what a shame)
[08:04] <madduck> :)
[08:04] <madduck> he *did* get chapter 1's quote, that bastard.
[08:04] <\sh> http://ianmurdock.com/archives/000244.html
[08:04] <ogra> madduck, you should also mention that we only survive through the fact that debian developers merge our changes, so we dont have to maintain every small fix and that we bring a huge testing community to the debian world
[08:04] <\sh> http://ianmurdock.com/archives/000258.html
[08:05] <madduck> ogra: don't i say that? so versuchen wir stets, den Abstand zwischen den
[08:05] <madduck> beiden Distribution klein zu halten, denn dann verringert sich der
[08:05] <madduck> Wartungsaufwand auf beiden Seiten -- vor allem aber fr die Ubuntu
[08:05] <madduck> Entwickler.
[08:05] <madduck> (sorry)
[08:05] <koke> jdub: my face is not showing at planet ubuntu, but it's in the heads/ dir
[08:05] <ogra> madduck, right...
[08:06] <ogra> madduck, but that doesnt show that both sides win here... 
[08:06] <mxpxpod> is there a rescue mode in ubuntu?
[08:06] <madduck> does debian win?
[08:06] <madduck> ogra: (serious question)
[08:07] <ogra> madduck, sure, they have a millon (or two, or ten) more testers for the software they offer... and probably the luck to get a fix from us if we touched the source
[08:08] <ogra> so both sides win indeed
[08:08] <\sh> madduck: no, when they go on with their arrogant mentality 
[08:08] <\sh> (sometimes)
[08:08] <madduck> \sh: "they" don't have a mentality.
[08:08] <madduck> \sh: some have and they speak too loudly.
[08:08] <madduck> i am all interested in making the best of debian+ubuntu
[08:08] <\sh> madduck: but this is debian...a mass of silence and a couple of loudspeakers
[08:09] <madduck> \sh: yeah, and a place where you aren't supposed to take anything for granted, nor react to everything, no matter how loud.
[08:09] <ogra> madduck, additionally i just was told debian seriously thinks about ubuntus xorg packages, so this might be an obvious win if it gets reality
[08:09] <madduck> ogra: yes. certainly.
[08:09] <madduck> "Demnach arbeiten Ubuntu Entwickler aktiv an Debian mit"
[08:10] <mako> 20:08 < madduck> i am all interested in making the best of debian+ubuntu
[08:10] <mako> amen
[08:10] <mako> :)
[08:10] <\sh> madduck: 2001 I was at the cebit as personal for redhat...we had debian visitors they asked us if redhat wanted to use the debian installer
[08:10] <ogra> madduck, that wouldnt convince ian ;)
[08:10] <madduck> mako: couldn't we form a committee who's purpose is to ensure we all get along? like 5+5 people
[08:10] <mako> madduck: we will.. but in a broader sense
[08:10] <madduck> ogra: ian ios a thick head
[08:10] <mako> will bring in other distros
[08:11] <\sh> madduck: the chief of engineering at this time said "definitly not" and they started to moan and spitting out some "not understandable" words ;)
[08:11] <mako> i've already written up the proposals.. should announce in a week or so
[08:11] <ogra> madduck, sure... but still, he has a lot of fans
[08:11] <mako> madduck: i'm happy to send you the stuff if you're interested
[08:11] <madduck> oh man, why not just solve small problems first before trying to cure world hunger?
[08:11] <madduck> mako: please do.
[08:11] <mako> madduck: killer
[08:11] <madduck> ogra: he is the reason we are speaking with each other right now. :)
[08:11] <mako> madduck: you gonna be in hel?
[08:11] <madduck> mako: sure thing.
[08:11] <ogra> madduck, because afterwards you have more time for the small stuff ;) raises the quality ;)
[08:11] <mxpxpod> is there a way to keep gdm from running when I boot into ubuntu?
[08:11] <mako> madduck: cool.. should have a session there.. the organizers are really dragging their feed on this though
[08:12] <madduck> mako: K.I.S.S.
[08:12] <madduck> i think it's dumb to try to make this so official before producing any results.
[08:12] <mxpxpod> I screwed up my xorg.conf and gdm freezes when it starts
[08:12] <\sh> mako: u want to bring gentoo in?? beware of the "100 emails for us and we will give a mini-mac as a gift to u" links...pls ;)
[08:12] <madduck> mako: for instance, doko and I are going to work on pkg-zope and I think we are going to set a good example of how to better work together.
[08:12] <ogra> madduck, the text is fine ( i would have written it more radically, but its good)
[08:13] <madduck> at least if it works out the way I have in mind. :)
[08:13] <madduck> ogra: if you have concrete suggestions, I would be happy to consider them.
[08:13] <mako> \sh: debian derivers
[08:13] <\sh> ogra: radical is nothing for ix
[08:13] <ogra> madduck, no, its ok like it is, i already made my statements :)
[08:13] <madduck> \sh: if mako brings gentoo in, i am going to lynch him when we go transsiberia together. :)
[08:13] <\sh> madduck: hahhahah
[08:13] <ogra> \sh, in a radical way as i would talk to IT managers ;)
[08:14] <mako> i'm not going to try to solve the world's problems.. just the debian derivers :)
[08:14] <\sh> ogra: hmmm....
[08:14] <ogra> YAY
[08:14] <mako> madduck: i think maybe we're talking about different sets of problems
[08:14] <mako> madduck: you'll see
[08:14] <madduck> mako: just try to solve ubuntu+debian for now. the other will (have to) follow.
[08:14] <\sh> ogra: i've missed u the time when I p*ssed off chris van hoven ;)
[08:14] <ogra> mono built on all arches :)
[08:14] <mako> madduck: but i'd love criticism.. certainly it's little things that will make or break it
[08:14] <madduck> mako: ok. looking forward.
[08:14] <madduck> mako: well, my inbox is waiting in vain.
[08:15] <ogra> \sh, pissing off is not good.... politics need stratgy ;)
[08:15] <ogra> strategy even
[08:15] <\sh> mako: so u talk at least also about progeny?
[08:15] <mako> \sh: yes
[08:15] <\sh> ogra: he wanted to tell me how i have to do my job...
[08:15] <madduck> ogra: pissing all over the place is a strategy
[08:15] <mvo> hey madduck, nice writing, I like it
[08:16] <mako> madduck: i'm gonna send it unedited.. go nuts
[08:16] <madduck> mako: weeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaa
[08:16] <madduck> mvo: thanks!
[08:16] <madduck> mako: deadline?
[08:16] <ogra> madduck, but i doubt you'll win by pissing ;)
[08:16] <madduck> ogra: wanna find out?
[08:16] <ogra> madduck, i already did... it cured me :)
[08:17] <madduck> you pissed all over the place to cure you?
[08:17] <ogra> LOL
[08:18] <jcole> has anyone here ever used FAI
[08:18] <\sh> madduck: no the others were p*ssing all over the place.
[08:18] <madduck> bukake party!
[08:18] <\sh> madduck: at last right now 
[08:18] <jcole> (per madduck recommendation)
[08:18] <madduck> jcole: it rulez
[08:18] <\sh> ok...lets have a look to the list
[08:18] <\sh> ogra: in the end: peter has ubuntu on his laptop ;)
[08:19] <\sh> ogra: so u left at least one good thing for him ;) 
[08:19] <jcole> i'm getting an "yuck, FAI" response
[08:19] <ogra> \sh, he had warty already, i gave it to him on my hiring interview ;)
[08:19] <mako> madduck: no deadline
[08:19] <mako> madduck: if you've got ideas, it would be cool to send them this weekend as i'll probably be hacking on this stuff then
[08:19] <madduck> mako: ok.
[08:20] <\sh> ogra: but he's not satisfied with gnome, i told him: sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop ;)
[08:20] <madduck> will do.
[08:20] <madduck> jcole: by whom?
[08:20] <ogra> jcole, we look for testers for hsprangs packages to get them into universe fo the next release
[08:20] <madduck> jcole: check out the wiki
[08:20] <ogra> jcole, would you mind to use them and write a two line comment on the functionallity ?
[08:21] <ogra> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUToReview
[08:22] <jcole> some of the developers that deploy different linux distros to people here at my company... they have a web interface that creates a small iso (for debian/suse/redhat/fedora/vmware esx server(rh7.3)/etc.) that will net-install
[08:22] <madduck> mako: s/deian/debian/ and more comments later
[08:22] <madduck> jcole: fai has a learning curve and i bet they didn't make it up there.
[08:22] <madduck> jcole: do you use cfengine?
[08:22] <jcole> ogra: ya, i'm reading this right now, and it seems pretty advanced and flexible -  http://www.informatik.uni-koeln.de/fai/fai-guide.html/
[08:22] <madduck> and/or do they know what cfengine is?
[08:23] <madduck> jcole: and *simple*
[08:23] <madduck> jcole: and it has a great mailing list
[08:23] <madduck> and #fai
[08:23] <ogra> jcole, i'm sure hsprang would be very happy to have finally a review
[08:24] <madduck> hsprang?
[08:24] <jcole> madduck: Henning Sprang
[08:24] <madduck> you guys review each other?
[08:25] <ogra> madduck, yep
[08:25] <ogra> madduck, for universe
[08:25] <madduck> so you review him and then send him out to space?
[08:25] <madduck> :)
[08:25] <madduck> i must go work now.
[08:25] <ogra> madduck, yeah
[08:32] <jcole> madduck: cfengine? i'll ask
[08:32] <madduck> jcole: i bet they don't know it. :)
[08:32] <\sh> cfengine?
[08:32] <\sh> nice tool :)
[08:33] <\sh> if u know what u do, u can break 500 servers in 1 second ;)
[08:34] <mvo> madduck: to work? now? it friday evening, that's the time for leisure :)
[08:34] <madduck> my gf gets here tomorrow. i have to make smart use of my time. :)
[08:34] <mvo> madduck: good point :)
[08:43] <wasabi_> mvo, I made a patch to update-manager that implements my idea.
[08:43] <wasabi_> pgp keys and all.
[08:43] <wasabi_> It's really sucky code, my first real python program. ;)
[08:43] <wasabi_> But it works!
[08:44] <Lathiat> go sucky code
[08:44] <Lathiat> at least it'l be indented correctly
[08:44] <wasabi_> haha
[08:44] <Lathiat> ;)
[08:45] <wasabi_> And when I say it works, i mean "in principal". There doesn't seem to be anyway to have a .desktop file pass a file name argument when using gksudo
[08:45] <Lathiat> .. how so?
[08:47] <Lathiat> ugh dselect got updated?
[08:47] <Lathiat> that still exits?
[08:49] <mvo> wasabi_: did you send it to me?
[08:49] <mvo> wasabi_: I'm happy to look at it, thanks for your idea and the code :)
[08:54] <blueyed> Which is the component where the gnome user manager is in (where you create/change user accounts)? It's buggy with amd64...
[08:57] <ogra> blueyed, gnome-system-tools
[09:00] <wasabi_> no, i didn't send it.
[09:00] <wasabi_> Im gonna clean it up some tonight.
[09:00] <wasabi_> Where is the svn/cvs repos at?
[09:00] <wasabi_> so I can make a proper patch against head or whatever
[09:04] <ogra> Lathiat, till monday most of mono will be done... mono itself should be clean with the last upload
[09:04] <Lathiat> still needs to go into main
[09:04] <Lathiat> before we get dbus-cil love
[09:04] <ogra> s/most of mono/most of the mono apps/
[09:04] <Lathiat> (so im told)
[09:05] <Lathiat> is anyone fixing bluez?
[09:05] <Lathiat> if not i might take a look
[09:05] <ogra> dbus-cil should be in the current new dbus...
[09:05] <ogra> which is in main
[09:05] <Lathiat> ogra: yeh but mono isnt
[09:05] <ogra> yep, true
[09:05] <Lathiat> and you cant build a source package in main
[09:05] <Lathiat> and drop stuff in universe
[09:06] <ogra> it will move next eek
[09:06] <ogra> week
[09:06] <Lathiat> (cus dbus-cil is now in the dbus source package rather than split)
[09:06] <ogra> i know
[09:07] <ogra> i think we move mono and gtk-sharp on monday and the rest of the apps during the week, as the dependencys come in
[09:07] <Lathiat> Setting up dbus (0.33-0ubuntu1) ...
[09:07] <Lathiat> Installing new version of config file /etc/init.d/dbus-1 ...
[09:07] <Lathiat> Installing new version of config file /etc/dbus-1/session.conf ...
[09:07] <Lathiat>  * Starting system message bus:                                          [ ok ] 
[09:07] <Lathiat>  * Starting Hardware abstraction layer:
[09:07] <Lathiat> /usr/sbin/hald: unrecognized option `--drop-privileges'
[09:07] <Lathiat> hmmm
[09:07] <mvo> wasabi_: update-manager is in gnome cvs
[09:08] <ogra> yeah, the last hal didnt build
[09:08] <KaiL> Lathiat: did you ever play manually in /etc/default/hal?
[09:12] <blueyed> ogra: Thanks. I filed it (https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10742). I think this is very bad.. the user in #ubuntu has probably to re-install.
[09:12] <Lathiat> KaiL: nope, never
[09:13] <KaiL> Lathiat: then we have a bug :(
[09:13] <Lathiat> also i get a '/bin/sh: no: command not found' in the gnome-volume-manager errorlog after mounting a removable drive (and the drive is mounted but doesntshow up in places etc)
[09:13] <Lathiat> is taht known?
[09:13] <KaiL> coz in that file sits this "--drop-privileges"
[09:13] <Lathiat> the automount stuff sems borked anyway
[09:13] <Kamion> Lathiat: that's characteristic of a missing build-dependency, usually
[09:13] <Lathiat> even when it mounts the usbdisk it thinks its a scsidisk and not a usbdisk like it used to anyway
[09:13] <ogra> Lathiat, as i said, pittis latest package ftbfs
[09:13] <Lathiat> ogra: oh right
[09:14] <Lathiat> ogra: missed that
[09:14] <Kamion> blueyed: the user should use the recovery boot option, with which they'll be able to reset their password by typing 'passwd <username>'
[09:14] <ogra> blueyed, let him boot in recovery mode.... 
[09:14] <blueyed> too late.. it got off.. :/
[09:15] <blueyed> s/it/he/
[09:15] <wasabi_> mvo, what would be the best way to raise this issue to the parties that matter? I see this as being a reasonable goal for breezy after people talk about it.
[09:16] <Lathiat> s/talk/argue
[09:16] <Kamion> Lathiat: dselect is still part of the dpkg source package; it was updated along with the rest of dpkg
[09:17] <Lathiat> Kamion: ahh
[09:17] <wasabi_> mvo, the apt security implications are probably not something I can handle.
[09:17] <Lathiat> i think the last time i used dselect was installing potato
[09:18] <Kamion> Keybuk wants to split it out of the source, I know; I occasionally volunteer to maintain it when he talks about that and I've had too much to drink
[09:18] <ogra> Kamion, you want to keep it alive ?
[09:19] <Kamion> ogra: yes; I use it almost every day.
[09:19] <ogra> wow, you got masochistic tendencys ?
[09:20] <ogra> didnt know that :)
[09:20] <Lathiat> heh
[09:21] <mvo> wasabi_: creating some text on the wiki (in the packagemanagement page)
[09:21] <Kamion> I like my upgrades to work, so I use dselect. ;-)
[09:21] <ogra> :)
[09:21] <ogra> mine work too... just with apt :)
[09:22] <mvo> wasabi_: I think matt likes the idea too and we want to be able to install stuff over the web
[09:27] <wasabi_> Trying to come up with a good GPG key acceptance dialog.
[09:30] <zyga> wasabi_: BSOD, people are afraid of those
[09:30] <wasabi_> ?
[09:30] <zyga> wasabi_: at least they'll notice
[09:30] <zyga> wasabi_: my mom is either 1) too afraid to click something she does not understand, 2) clicks something away when window shape is similar
[09:31] <zyga> similar to something she recognizes
[09:31] <wasabi_> Yeah. Well. Until somebody can come up with another paradigm, we're stuck with this.
[09:31] <wasabi_> And I've been thinking hard and haven't figured it out.
[09:31] <zyga> wasabi_: BSOD - blue screen of death ;-] 
[09:31] <wasabi_> Any ideas?
[09:32] <zyga> wasabi_: talking head, that would atract attention :-)
[09:32] <\sh> does anybody worked with libglade recently?
[09:32] <Lathiat> \sh: yeh whats up
[09:32] <wasabi_> I realize this is almost exactly like MS's active X thing. =/
[09:32] <wasabi_> I just can't come up with a more reasonable way to go about it.
[09:32] <zyga> wasabi_: in some way - yes
[09:32] <zyga> wasabi_: probably because there is none
[09:32] <wasabi_> People want to be able to install software over the web... so they have to be able to.
[09:32] <\sh> Lathiat: did u see any problems with current libglade gtk apps in breezy? 
[09:32] <wasabi_> And some dialog has to ask if they're sure if they want to.
[09:32] <wasabi_> And that's it.
[09:32] <mvo> \sh: I work with libglade a lot
[09:32] <zyga> wasabi_: people will install trash this way 
[09:33] <wasabi_> I know. =(
[09:33] <Lathiat> wasabi_: its really no different to downloading an installer
[09:33] <zyga> wasabi_: people are not sure
[09:33] <zyga> wasabi_: developers who can read the code are sure
[09:33] <Lathiat> \sh: well alot of applications use it, and i havent seen anything break
[09:33] <zyga> wasabi_: think middle ages, where only few people could read
[09:33] <\sh> Lathiat: do me a favour, and try tagtool
[09:33] <wasabi_> I'd bet we haven't hit the problem yet because malicious people don't target us, and we don't have a user base. =/
[09:33] <wasabi_> And installing packages is hard.
[09:33] <Lathiat> \sh: just install the package?
[09:33] <\sh> Lathiat: in hoary it's ok...on breezy it broke
[09:33] <\sh> Lathiat: 
[09:33] <\sh> yeapp
[09:33] <ogra> wasabi_, we dont have a userbase ?
[09:33] <zyga> wasabi_: those who could not had no opinion of their own, no knowledge (generalizing here)
[09:34] <wasabi_> ogra, that is targetting by ISV's, no.
[09:34] <Lathiat> seems to have an issue finding the signal handler
[09:34] <Lathiat> i.e. its using autoconnect
[09:34] <Lathiat> that could possibly eb somethign to do with gcc4, or tagtool is just broken
[09:34] <\sh> Lathiat: lemme look
[09:34] <\sh> Lathiat: i think gcc4
[09:34] <Lathiat> (cus it uses some of the glib module introspetion to do the autoconnect)
[09:34] <zyga> wasabi_: when we have a userbase of 10% (apt-based systems in general) it will be too late to fix something security wise
[09:34] <Lathiat> nfi how that works or how gcc4 woudl affect it
[09:35] <\sh> jupp glade_xml_signal_autoconnect
[09:35] <Lathiat> (i can tell from the errors tahts whats causing the issue0
[09:35] <wasabi_> zyga, again, if you can offer a better solution. ;)
[09:35] <wasabi_> I mean, I *CAN* offer a better solution... we just can't do it yet.
[09:35] <wasabi_> Every package installed by this remote thing should run in a protected space, perhaps with SELinux.
[09:35] <zyga> wasabi_: there is no protected space
[09:36] <\sh> Lathiat: so i have to search for a workaround....:(
[09:36] <wasabi_> my point exactly.
[09:36] <zyga> wasabi_: you are fooling yourself in a way
[09:36] <zyga> wasabi_: the protected space will *have* to be breached
[09:36] <wasabi_> How so?
[09:36] <zyga> wasabi_: unless the app is totally self contained
[09:36] <wasabi_> Worked for Java. ;)
[09:36] <zyga> wasabi_: and users will simply click 'yes I want to let this app access my files'
[09:36] <Lathiat> \sh: fix glade :P
[09:36] <zyga> wasabi_: didn't you see java crapware?
[09:37] <zyga> wasabi_: just download and run will all priviledges (pretty images show how joe sixpack can do this)
[09:37] <\sh> Lathiat: no ways ;) i hate gtk stuff ;)
[09:37] <jbailey> wasabi_: Is this a proposal for a security manager implementation?
[09:37] <wasabi_> No.
[09:37] <\sh> Lathiat: but i'm the last who touched tagtool
[09:37] <wasabi_> It's just a wandering conversation.
[09:38] <Lathiat> well im going to bed, night all
[09:38] <jbailey> Oh good.  SELinux for SecurityManager would be... interesting.
[09:38] <wasabi_> Yeah.
[09:38] <jbailey> Probably be a bitch to audit.
[09:38] <wasabi_> Well, I've got a draft proposal for that idea someplace too. ;0
[09:38] <wasabi_> Apple is actually doing it in OS X
[09:38] <zyga> wasabi_: can't you write a java app that will remove all files in your home dir?
[09:38] <zyga> wasabi_: you can!
[09:39] <wasabi_> zyga, not if you don't give the user the ability to run it.
[09:39] <Lathiat> sure but afaik with sun etc it isnt allowed to in a browser
[09:39] <wasabi_> except in the sandbox.
[09:39] <zyga> wasabi_: and when the java security stuff will ask you wether to allow this app to access the file system 
[09:39] <zyga> wasabi_: you might click no
[09:39] <wasabi_> zyga, only if signed by a trusted signature.
[09:39] <Lathiat> however the current gcj firefox plugin does
[09:39] <zyga> wasabi_: but will anyone else?
[09:39] <wasabi_> Hey the idea isn't about to defeat every possible entry point.
[09:39] <wasabi_> The idea is to make a user relatively sure he's safe by default when running remote software.
[09:39] <MrKeuner> hi, did ubuntu quit maintaining bittorrent tracker service?
[09:40] <zyga> wasabi_: trusted signature? 
[09:40] <zyga> wasabi_: like signed activex? 
[09:40] <wasabi_> zyga, code signing. The basis of the Java security manager.
[09:40] <zyga> wasabi_: trusted = centralized trust?
[09:40] <wasabi_> Depends what you mean by centralized.
[09:40] <zyga> wasabi_: forget about centralized
[09:40] <zyga> wasabi_: I just cannot understand how will this ever work
[09:40] <wasabi_> centralized where anybody is free the be the center.
[09:41] <zyga> wasabi_: let's say I have app XYZ and I want it to be trusted
[09:41] <wasabi_> zyga, okay, lets take a simple scenario. A user wants to run... hmm. A little game he received from email.
[09:41] <zyga> wasabi_: okay
[09:41] <zyga> wasabi_: he has only a binary image
[09:41] <zyga> wasabi_: now what?
[09:41] <wasabi_> So he opens hte game from his email client. The email client launches the process, but before it launches it it takes to our security manager and applies a profile to the process.
[09:41] <wasabi_> profile: "LaunchedFromEmail"
[09:42] <wasabi_> Which says "can create 1 X window"
[09:42] <herve> hi
[09:42] <wasabi_> And "can open outbound connections > 1024"
[09:42] <zyga> wasabi_: go on
[09:42] <wasabi_> That sounds like a reasonable default "LaunchedFromEmail" profile.
[09:42] <wasabi_> Obviously it needs tweaking.
[09:42] <herve> seb128, did you try something on verbiste or can I try my hands on it?
[09:42] <zyga> wasabi_: can access file system?
[09:42] <wasabi_> no.
[09:43] <wasabi_> Well, maybe /tmp/$pid
[09:43] <zyga> wasabi_: bzzz bad game
[09:43] <wasabi_> why?
[09:43] <seb128> herve: I've assigned the bug to me for a reason, I've a patch on my disk
[09:43] <zyga> wasabi_: scores? 
[09:43] <wasabi_> zyga, it's an internet game
[09:43] <wasabi_> scores are stored remotely.
[09:43] <zyga> wasabi_: upgrades [levels/sounds]  from the web
[09:43] <zyga> wasabi_: okay
[09:43] <seb128> herve: I've already said that to a motu this week, don't remember who...
[09:43] <herve> seb128, that's what I thouht :)-
[09:43] <zyga> wasabi_: fair enough
[09:43] <zyga> wasabi_: what if it's a panorama picture maker
[09:43] <wasabi_> The program runs. If the program attempts to access something outside of the profile, the security manager raises a signal to dbus saying "profile 1234 attempted to access this protected resource".
[09:44] <wasabi_> The security manager sleeps the program and waits for an answer.
[09:44] <zyga> wasabi_: answer from whom?
[09:44] <wasabi_> afk brb
[09:45] <wasabi_> The dbus thing would probably notify some user process, which would display some sort of dialog
[09:45] <wasabi_> "Program blah has attempted to do foo, this is not allowed."
[09:45] <zyga> wasabi_: and ther you go
[09:45] <wasabi_> The choice about weither to have a "allow" button is optional.
[09:45] <zyga> wasabi_: THE USER IS NOT CAPABLE OF ANSWERING THAT QUESTION
[09:45] <wasabi_> what question? :0
[09:45] <zyga> wasabi_: sorry for caps but I really mean it
[09:45] <wasabi_> I didn't put a question
[09:45] <wasabi_> I said the program can't do it.
[09:45] <wasabi_> All dependent on the launch profile.
[09:46] <zyga> wasabi_: if you don't allow the user to permit things he will just dump the app
[09:46] <wasabi_> For a program launched from email, i'd imagine you'd not want to allow that, in an office.
[09:46] <wasabi_> Maybe on a home system you would.
[09:46] <wasabi_> This needs to be configurable.
[09:46] <herve> seb128, I would probably be the only one in #u-m caring about verbiste :-)
[09:46] <herve> seb128, but I don't remember about the patch, sorry then
[09:46] <wasabi_> zyga, depends.
[09:46] <zyga> wasabi_: and the big-bad-company will find a way to make malware that will go around that security
[09:46] <wasabi_> zyga, if the app is non malicious, then it was designed with this in mind.
[09:46] <wasabi_> If the app is malicious, and the user dumps it, great. ;)
[09:46] <zyga> wasabi_: okay - my example
[09:46] <wasabi_> For my office network, I would not want anybody to launch anything from email.
[09:46] <wasabi_> That's my choice as an admin.
[09:46] <zyga> wasabi_: panorama picture maker
[09:47] <zyga> wasabi_: my mom got this over the email
[09:47] <zyga> wasabi_: she clicks but learns (by some dialog and apps talking behind the sceens) that the program needs to access her files
[09:48] <zyga> wasabi_: should she be able to allow this or not?
[09:48] <wasabi_> Sure. She should be able to allow it to access files in ~ that are not prefixed with .
[09:48] <wasabi_> But not anything else.
[09:48] <wasabi_> I'm talking very fine grained here. ;0
[09:48] <zyga> wasabi_: this is already exploitable 
[09:49] <zyga> wasabi_: first of all my mom will probably be confused (she has no idea about any . files)
[09:49] <wasabi_> eh?
[09:49] <wasabi_> You just assumed for some reason that you mom saw some message talking about . files.
[09:49] <wasabi_> I'm not sure where you got that.
[09:49] <zyga> wasabi_: and the app will be free to write 'sorry' to each and every writable file
[09:49] <zyga> wasabi_: okay so mom could click a button 'allow limited access'
[09:50] <wasabi_> Why did you assume that button is present?
[09:50] <wasabi_> listen, I realize there are a billion ways around this.
[09:50] <wasabi_> You don't have to convince me about that.
[09:50] <zyga> wasabi_: good :-)
[09:50] <wasabi_> I already admitted that up above.
[09:51] <zyga> wasabi_: so what are we left with?
[09:51] <wasabi_> The default cause that a user can run a non malicious program by default.
[09:51] <wasabi_> But is still given the chance to preventa  malicious program.
[09:51] <zyga> wasabi_: gigantic audit over anything? (system calls for example?)
[09:51] <wasabi_> GIVEN THE CHANCE
[09:51] <trulux> heya
[09:51] <trulux> pitti not here :(
[09:51] <trulux> I have good news for him :)
[09:52] <trulux> tseng: ping
[09:52] <wasabi_> This is a tool.
[09:52] <trulux> tseng|work: ping
[09:52] <wasabi_> It's not a prevent all exploit magic wand.
[09:52] <wasabi_> On top of that, it'd be a REALLY GOOD tool for an office situation.
[09:52] <wasabi_> It might be less good for a home user.
[09:52] <zyga> wasabi_: it could stop one vector of attack (like email)
[09:53] <zyga> wasabi_: for an office situtation? /home <- non executable, nothing gets installed
[09:53] <wasabi_> In my office I'd want to let people run the obvious: things which didn't need to access their docs. Maybe things that could read only.
[09:53] <wasabi_> And display 1 or 2 windows.
[09:53] <wasabi_> You know, those flash.exe videos idiots send around.
[09:53] <zyga> wasabi_: for home situtation... really no idea
[09:53] <wasabi_> It is an idea.
[09:53] <wasabi_> I am in a home istuation. Most of my friends are.
[09:53] <zyga> wasabi_: (I'm still getting .ppt videos ... )
[09:54] <wasabi_> And we are capable of using a tool like this to audit our programs.
[09:54] <zyga> wasabi_: the home situation is most crucial
[09:54] <wasabi_> Sure, we're not my mom.
[09:54] <wasabi_> But we are a certain population.
[09:54] <zyga> wasabi_: because that's how zombie nets and user attitude is generated
[09:54] <wasabi_> What about YOU?
[09:54] <wasabi_> Would you appreciate this tool?
[09:54] <zyga> wasabi_: hard to say
[09:55] <zyga> wasabi_: I am biased (spelling?)
[09:55] <wasabi_> I'd set mine to prompt on everything and I wouldn't be afraid to run anything from the internet.
[09:55] <wasabi_> That's a massive use right there, for me.
[09:55] <zyga> wasabi_: if it's not open source and generaly recognized I'm wary
[09:55] <wasabi_> Right now, I wouldn't ever run a program from the internet.
[09:55] <wasabi_> Liket hose flash apps.
[09:55] <zyga> wasabi_: I would - this kind of stuff is not perfect 
[09:56] <zyga> wasabi_: unless it would really really audit everything down to system calls and memory overusage
[09:56] <wasabi_> That's the goal.
[09:56] <wasabi_> Basically what SELinux provides, no?
[09:56] <zyga> wasabi_: but then it would be a monster to maintain and monster for performance IMHO
[09:56] <wasabi_> Just with a dbus callout interface of some sort.
[09:56] <zyga> wasabi_: maybe I'm out of the loop
[09:56] <zyga> wasabi_: but I though selinux did a fair bit less than that
[09:56] <wasabi_> zyga, I would not find it neccassary to use for software distributed by Ubuntu.
[09:56] <zyga> wasabi_: I should update myself on that topic
[09:57] <zyga> wasabi_: because we trust ubuntu
[09:57] <wasabi_> Exactly.
[09:57] <wasabi_> And I'm not too worried about performance issues on flash.exe
[09:57] <wasabi_> So, it's not much of a concern.
[09:57] <zyga> wasabi_: I would really hate the day when linux will have to run antivirus for daily stuff 
[09:57] <wasabi_> Its a simple fact that we WILL.
[09:57] <wasabi_> When we have a user base of sufficient size.
[09:58] <wasabi_> There's nothing preventing it.
[09:58] <zyga> wasabi_: then we'll say 'bah, no more' and start hacking gnu/hurd and Z windows 
[09:58] <wasabi_> pssh.
[09:58] <zyga> wasabi_: and banish those 'linuz' folks and their problems ;-)
[09:58] <zyga> hehe
[09:59] <zyga> wasabi_: virtual boxes, totally separated from the main system would convice mew
[09:59] <zyga> wasabi_: maybe the next generation of CPUs that will get new instructions important for virtualizing stuff will help
[10:00] <zyga> wasabi_: BTW, did you hear of libsandbox?
[10:00] <wasabi_> virutal boxes are just a poor mans way of accomplishing it
[10:00] <elmo> Kamion/seb128: done gtk2-blah, sorry for the delay
[10:00] <seb128> thanks
[10:00] <Kamion> elmo: np, thanks
[10:00] <wasabi_> no
[10:00] <zyga> wasabi_: google for 'DAG sandbox'
[10:00] <zyga> wasabi_: it's a small library
[10:00] <zyga> wasabi_: written by that guy to test .rpm installs
[10:01] <zyga> wasabi_: basically it allows you to audit most file operations
[10:01] <wasabi_> just a preload thing
[10:01] <zyga> wasabi_: yes
[10:01] <zyga> wasabi_: easy to go around of course
[10:01] <wasabi_> if it was used widly for what we were talking about, people would just work around it
[10:01] <zyga> wasabi_: but the idea is neat
[10:01] <zyga> wasabi_: chroot for app X to run
[10:02] <zyga> wasabi_: and system provided user interface and tools to transfer files from one zone to the other
[10:02] <wasabi_> I can also see this sandbox thing being used in other creative ways too.
[10:02] <zyga> wasabi_: same thing for networks and user displays and lots of other things
[10:02] <wasabi_> Like, imagine if Evolution's mail display widget was in a seperate process.
[10:02] <zyga> wasabi_: it was used to see wether PREFIX stuff worked
[10:03] <wasabi_> and this process was locked down to do nothing except communicate with the host process and draw to a predefined X window
[10:03] <zyga> whether [spelling] 
[10:03] <wasabi_> might reduce the impact of a html rendering vuln of some sort
[10:03] <wasabi_> same with a browser.
[10:03] <zyga> wasabi_: hmm, how?
[10:04] <zyga> wasabi_: the process can: break, hug resources, do nothing
[10:04] <zyga> wasabi_: what can the same process do without that constraint?
[10:04] <wasabi_> huh?
[10:04] <zyga> wasabi_: what else?
[10:04] <wasabi_> you just listed 3 very minor thing
[10:04] <wasabi_> at least he process can't "open a smtp engine and serve spam"
[10:04] <wasabi_> or "overwrite all my files"
[10:04] <zyga> wasabi_: hmm?
[10:05] <zyga> wasabi_: I thought you were talking about html display widget
[10:05] <wasabi_> I am.
[10:05] <zyga> wasabi_: I hope we never have to get them from the net from random corporations :>
[10:05] <wasabi_> Think of all the complex logic involved in parsing HTML and CSS and MarkupOfTheDay.
[10:05] <wasabi_> There are probavly buffer overflows in there waiting to happen.
[10:05] <zyga> wasabi_: true
[10:05] <zyga> wasabi_: hmm
[10:05] <wasabi_> If all they could do was compromise a little window in a mail client, and nothing else.
[10:05] <wasabi_> Well, that's a bonus.
[10:05] <zyga> wasabi_: I'm not afraid of buffer overflows actually
[10:06] <wasabi_> well, then consider javascript in a browser.
[10:06] <zyga> wasabi_: with all the stuff going on recently It's become virtually impossible to hack stuff this way (or so I believe)
[10:06] <zyga> correct me if I'm wrong please
[10:07] <zyga> and besides: safe languages can provide stuff like this if you want to be totally sure
[10:07] <wasabi_> that's great.
[10:07] <zyga> wasabi_: like java for example
[10:07] <wasabi_> you get everyone to rewrite all their apps in a safe language. ;)
[10:07] <zyga> wasabi_: no, but critical systems could be reimplemented (just thinking)
[10:07] <wasabi_> well what's critical?
[10:07] <wasabi_> 5 years ago a browser wasn't critical.
[10:08] <wasabi_> now it's hte most critical thing there is
[10:08] <zyga> wasabi_: especially since parsing is already available in just about any language
[10:08] <zyga> wasabi_: true
[10:08] <zyga> wasabi_: browser is really critical nowdays
[10:08] <trulux> hey tritium 
[10:08] <tritium> hey trulux
[10:08] <zyga> wasabi_: trully I don't think that java-browser will have wide user base ;-)
[10:09] <wasabi_> it doesn't and never will
[10:09] <zyga> wasabi_: loook it's started, I can almost see the window now
[10:09] <wasabi_> exactly
[10:09] <zyga> wasabi_: bah, back to the topic
[10:10] <zyga> wasabi_: all those stack smashing and random offset loading anti bufer overflow things
[10:10] <zyga> wasabi_: how exploitable is that ATM?
[10:11] <wasabi_> no clue
[10:11] <zyga> wasabi_: so no conclusion 
[10:14] <tseng|work> pitti I built latest ethereal from breezy on hoary.. works nicely
[10:15] <tseng|work> pitti: what is the right place to upload it for review?
[10:15] <seb128> he's not here
[10:15] <tseng|work> k.
[10:15] <seb128> you probably should mail him
[10:15] <seb128> not sure on how much he IRC during the WE
[10:15] <tseng|work> yes
[10:23] <MrKeuner> did ubuntu quit maintaining bittorrent tracker service? it is not working since yesterday
[10:25] <elmo> the machine had some hardware problems - I've just re-enabled it, pls try again
[10:27] <trulux> anyone here wants to review the UBuntu Hardened new spec. before I commit it to CVS and the like?
[10:33] <MrKeuner> elmo thank you it is working now
[10:59] <blueyed> elmo: I cannot find peers with a fresh bittorrent install. Azureus on another machine can find a few (through Scrape perhaps?). Can you please check the server(s) again?
[11:03] <trulux> mako: ping
[11:05] <mako> trulux: yessir
[11:06] <trulux> mako: I've got the spec. finished and some kernel sutff, just I'm unable to get logged into the OFTC machine to rsync and so on
[11:06] <trulux> mako: do you want to look over it before I announce it?
[11:08] <mako> trulux: better to have mdz and ajmitch_ look it over if they haven't yet
[11:08] <mako> and what do you mean by announce it? call for comments?
[11:10] <trulux> mako: yes, send note to mailing list
[11:14] <blueyed> yeah.. bad..
[11:14] <blueyed> ups.
[11:17] <mako> trulux: if it needs to be looked at right now, i can't do it.. if you can wait a bit, i'll get time in a minute
[11:18] <trulux> mako: sure
[11:18] <trulux> mako: I'll wait
[11:31] <tseng> trulux: ?
[11:33] <trulux> tseng: the new spec...
[11:34] <tseng> did you post it to the u-h mailing list?
[11:34] <trulux> tseng: not yet, I'm asking for people who want to review it before I do that
[11:34] <trulux> tseng: I thought you might be interested
[11:35] <tseng> is it as long as the last writeup? i dont have alot of extra time
[11:35] <trulux> tseng: just 8 pages but not long
[11:35] <tseng> oh man
[11:36] <trulux> tseng: it's a spec., it's the point where we decide over the project future, taking it as little wiki page is senseless if we want to achieve our goals
[11:36] <trulux> btw, I've taken most of the things of the wiki page into the spec
[11:37] <trulux> at least those under my competency
[11:38] <trulux> tseng: I hope you'll like it
[11:38] <trulux> tseng: capable for DCC?
[11:38] <tseng> sometimes
[11:39] <trulux> tseng: let's check :)
[11:40] <trulux> tseng: done!
[11:42] <trulux> tseng: my crack of the day won't be available yet, andromeda (OFTC machine hosting pearls.tuxedo-es.org and the like) died today due to harddisk failure
[11:42] <trulux> tseng: the box is at Germany, so, I suspect pappy- has something to say about it!!
[11:43] <tseng> uh
[11:44] <trulux> tseng: hehe. he disappeared, no joke. just says hi from times to times but I doubt I feel OK seeing a hacker like pappy- falling down that hard way
[11:45] <trulux> tseng: or he is working on a world domination project
[11:45] <trulux> tseng: anyways, we (Hardened Debian/UH) work much better now without him, though he was a great fellow when we were working together on libssp and the other stuff
[11:46] <diego> hi all. i'm interested in developing the Graphical Config Tools as listed on http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/GraphicalConfigTools?highlight=%28BreezyGoal%29 . i'm busy now but i can definitely get this done (with python+gtk+glade) sometime in the next few weeks. who should i talk to? the only thing i would need help with is just a security audit on the password change tool
[11:46] <trulux> I still think on why he got mad, it was in just one week, all things messed up. that's not reliable even for me (if I'm the mostly a unstable kid) :)
[11:46] <tseng> OT dude
[11:47] <trulux> tseng: right, let's forget it
[11:47] <trulux> tseng: bbl, dinner
[11:49] <LinuxJones> can someone come to #ubuntu there is a spammer/racist idiot please :(
[11:49] <Kamion> elmo: could you promote the various bits of ttf-indic-fonts? (sorry, I've no idea how anastacia output looks at the moment and whether direct requests for each thing are needed)
[11:49] <diego> hm..should i have asked that in #ubuntu-love? didn't know it existed
[11:50] <thom> LinuxJones: who?
[11:50] <LinuxJones> thom, slak
[11:52] <LinuxJones> thom, ty
[11:52] <thom> np
[11:56] <Kamion> seb128: in case you hadn't noticed, gnome-libs FTBFS on powerpc
[11:57] <diego> will someone tell me what i need to do to get involved with this goal?
[11:57] <seb128> not notice, I'll have a look tomorrow, thanks
[11:57] <Kamion> diego: probably better to send mail to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[11:57] <Kamion> (than asking here)
[11:58] <diego> Kamion: well the wiki has People, Contributers, and Interested listed...what do those mean?
[11:58] <Kamion> diego: what they say; they were just put together from the names that came up at the breezy kickoff meeting
[11:58] <Kamion> diego: don't worry about those for now
[11:59] <Kamion> diego: however it looks like you should talk to ogra
[11:59] <diego> ogra?
[11:59] <tseng> not here
[11:59] <Kamion> he's on IRC but I don't know if he's still around
[12:00] <diego> ok...what does he do?
[12:00] <elmo> Kamion: done
[12:00] <Kamion> thanks
[12:01] <Kamion> diego: he's listed as the person to contact about GraphicalConfigTools
[12:01] <diego> Kamion: well ok :) thanks