[01:04] <k31th> fuck im over drawn
[01:12] <k31th> that sux
[01:20] <k31th> froud-away: if your there or anyone else knows how do i convert it to html ?
[01:20] <k31th> im guessing its with that shell script ?
[01:20] <Burgundavia> convert what?
[01:21] <k31th> xml file
[01:21] <mdke> k31th, you can view em with "yelp filename"
[01:21] <mdke> also there is an html script
[01:21] <k31th> i ran that script
[01:22] <k31th> nice yelp works for me
[01:22] <mdke> :)
[01:24] <mdke> ok bed time
[01:24] <mdke> night y'all
[01:24] <k31th> night
[01:40] <k31th> im going to do a full install and document it all i think a server install that is
[04:23] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
[04:23] <jsgotangco> salut
[04:24] <jsgotangco> how fare the natives?
[04:24] <Burgundavia> not bad
[04:25] <jsgotangco> ah heh
[04:25] <jsgotangco> you're not a native canadian?
[04:50] <jsgotangco> i gotta start pulling people for PDA support
[04:50] <Burgundavia> just found my tungsten E
[04:50] <jsgotangco> ahhh goodie
[04:51] <jsgotangco> im going to make a wiki page first ala laptop testing if there is nothing atm
[04:52] <Burgundavia> there is
[04:52] <Burgundavia> on the old wiki
[04:52] <Burgundavia> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingHardware
[04:52] <Burgundavia> needs to be gardened though
[04:52] <jsgotangco> that's mjg59's
[04:52] <jsgotangco> im searching through the wiki
[04:52] <jsgotangco> ther are some palm howtos
[04:54] <jsgotangco> LaptopTestingHardware is quite new; mjg59 requested for some contribs
[06:55] <mpt> How is that an "old wiki"?
[07:07] <jdub> mpt: that was the first wiki we used
[07:07] <jdub> mpt: before we made the stunning error of migrating to zwiki
[07:08] <mpt> so where's the new wiki?
[07:09] <jdub> www.ubuntu.com/wiki/
[07:09] <jdub> and arguably udu.wiki.ubuntu.com
[07:09] <jdub> which may or may not be where we migrate to
[07:09] <jdub> when we switch back to moin
[07:09] <mpt> wiki.ubuntu.com and www.ubuntu.com/wiki/ both redirect me to the same page
[07:10] <mpt> So I don't see the difference
[07:10] <mpt> I hope we're not intending to use Moin for docs that are going to be ported to anything else
[07:10] <jdub> the wiki is irrelevant to documentation production
[07:11] <mpt> ok then
[07:12] <jsgotangco> hello jdub, mpt 
[07:12] <mpt> hi
[07:14] <jdub> morning jerome
[07:42] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you there?
[07:43] <jsgotangco> hey froud 
[07:44] <froud> hey
[08:01] <jsgotangco> wow
[08:05] <froud> k31th: mdke : how did it go while I was asleep
[08:06] <jsgotangco> i havent committed anything yet, quite busy putting up PDA Support
[08:06] <jsgotangco> but dont worry :)
[08:06] <froud> mdke: nice commits last night, thanks dude
[08:11] <froud> Hmm have not seen Jeff in a few days
[08:11] <froud> Burgundavia: did you find that file?
[08:20] <froud> jsgotangco: the dialup doc is not well-formed? I tested and it is ... do you still have that problem with it?
[08:21] <jsgotangco> ill check now
[08:22] <jsgotangco> its ok now after the update
[08:22] <jsgotangco> hmmm..connecting to centurytel?
[08:24] <froud> yes, it need to be made generic
[08:25] <mdke> froud, fine thanks
[08:25] <froud> the doc was contributed in OOo, I converted it to docbook, now we need to generalize it
[08:25] <froud> cool
[08:25] <mdke> hi jsgotangco 
[08:25] <mdke> hi mpt jdub 
[08:25] <jsgotangco> mdke, hey
[08:26] <jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PDATesting - WIP
[08:26] <mdke> mpt, by "old wiki", Burgundavia meant the current wiki
[08:26] <mpt> ahhhhhhh
[08:26] <mpt> cf. http://wiki.wordpress.org/ and http://codex.wordpress.org/
[08:27] <mdke> those moin bugs are bugs in the wiki engine, and will not be present after we migrate
[08:28] <mdke> [06:10:57]  jdub the wiki is irrelevant to documentation production
[08:28] <froud> ;-) dont take it too literally
[08:28] <mdke> its just contrary to our current practice, that's all
[08:28] <mpt> My favorite feature of MoinMoin is how when logging in, you enter your login name, enter your password, hit Enter, and get an "invalid e-mail address" error
[08:29] <mdke> mpt, haven't seen that one
[08:29] <mpt> because it uses the same form for (a) logging in, (b) registering, and (c) e-mailing you your password
[08:29] <froud> dont use wiki much so can't related :-)
[08:29] <mpt> and the first button in the form is the one for e-mailing you your password
[08:29] <froud> from #ubuntu-devel [08:14]  <fabbione> JaneW: it's just a mess to edit from the web
[08:30] <mdke> saw that
[08:30] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:30] <mdke> mpt, i see, is that on the udu wiki?
[08:30] <jsgotangco> its because of the colors of breezy goals
[08:30] <mpt> Yeah, UDU wiki and Launchpad wiki
[08:30] <mdke> mpt, ok sounds fun
[08:30] <mdke> *laughs*
[08:31] <jsgotangco> i still like svn love
[08:31] <mdke> froud, its simply that the wiki material will be useful for compiling the docs, especially faq guide imo
[08:31] <mpt> "wikiwikiwiki" sounds almost as bad as "yyyyyyyyakkaboo!"
[08:31] <mdke> froud, plus of course the task of gardening it seems to have been given to the docteam
[08:31] <froud> Sure, now if you can just port the lot to docbook it will be good ;-)
[08:32] <mdke> nooooo
[08:32] <mdke> ;)
[08:32] <froud> Hmmm, can't blame you
[08:32] <mdke> froud, its just that some parts can be useful to lift out of the wiki and put into the relevant places in the documents
[08:33] <mdke> if they are reliable
[08:33] <froud> I thought Jeff has some stylesheets for xml db to moin, or did I read him wrong?
[08:33] <mdke> i don't know
[08:33] <mdke> he hasn't posted a single mail to the list
[08:33] <froud> lift and shift wiki to docbook
[08:33] <froud> maybe it was jjesse
[08:33] <mdke> that fedora doc looks pretty cool at first glance
[08:34] <froud> It is
[08:34] <mdke> maybe that guy who found it can write to them and ask if they have it in xml
[08:34] <froud> Burgundavia: how's that ubuntuguide to faqguide port com'n along?
[08:34] <mdke> Burgundavia, great survey email btw
[08:35] <froud> yeah I think we should open a howto folder in generic
[08:35] <mdke> i don't like the label howto
[08:36] <froud> not going there^ mdke 
[08:36] <mdke> to me they are all documentation, and it blows to distinguish between different forms rather than content, because users can't find things if you do that
[08:36] <mdke> ok
[08:37] <mdke> but that survey will be useful for the faq guide
[08:37] <froud> yes, it is good
[08:38] <mdke> ooh
[08:38] <froud> mpt: you got time on your hands, how about you port ubuntuguide to faqguide, please
[08:38] <mdke> froud, i noticed that the directory name for the userguide is different to the name of the xml file: there is an extra "s" in the middle
[08:38] <mdke> can you sort that?
[08:38] <mpt> froud: Time on my hands? You must be joking
[08:38] <mdke> or will it break links
[08:38] <mdke> mpt, i think he is
[08:39] <froud> no serious
[08:39] <mpt> froud: I started working on the local help last night but fell asleep
[08:39] <froud> local help?
[08:39] <mpt> the stuff you get when you choose System > Help
[08:39] <mdke> which file?
[08:39] <mpt> the front page
[08:40] <froud> not important at this stange
[08:40] <froud> IMHO
[08:40] <mdke> how do you change that?
[08:40] <mpt> because I'd much rather work on that than on something people won't read
[08:40] <mdke> froud, ++ seem to remember that it was sorted at the end of the cycle before hoary
[08:41] <froud> you dont know what they will and wont read
[08:41] <mpt> ok, let me rephrase that
[08:41] <froud> Well, like it or not I am not aiming to publish ubuntu-docs in yelp
[08:41] <mpt> I'd much rather fix something that's positively embarrassing right now, than work on something which is already adequate :-)
[08:42] <mdke> mpt, long time before the next release :)
[08:42] <froud> Dutch Academics Declare Research Free-for-All
[08:42] <mdke> lots of things might change
[08:42] <mpt> not really, only five months, and there's a *lot* of work to do
[08:42] <froud> mpt: it would be better to focus in the docs
[08:43] <jsgotangco> ahem why do i get the feeling that im not fitting in lately after UDU
[08:43] <jsgotangco> im serious
[08:43] <mdke> i don't know what you are on about
[08:43] <froud> in about 2 months from now our docs will not open in yelp
[08:43] <mpt> froud: If help isn't "docs", I don't know what you mean by "docs"
[08:43] <froud> mpt: yelp is borked
[08:43] <mpt> Yes, I know that
[08:44] <mpt> Patches welcome
[08:44] <froud> mpt: I am moving to browser with greater functionality
[08:44] <froud> search, index and interlinking  between ubuntu docs and glossary database and biblio
[08:45] <froud> better customization and branding, some bling, bling
[08:45] <froud> Docs in yelp will be for GNOME apps only
[08:45] <mdke> jsgotangco, oy
[08:46] <froud> and if somebody wants they can use yelp to read the HTML we will package
[08:46] <froud> jsgotangco: stop crying dude you are part ofthe furniture here :-)
[08:46] <mdke> bummer about mary
[08:46] <mdke> she was a great asset
[08:47] <froud> yep
[08:47] <mdke> :(
[08:47] <froud> but as I said before, people come and people go
[08:47] <mdke> not saying they don't
[08:47] <froud> that is why we need to focus on sustainable systems
[08:47] <froud> to much dependance on one person is not good in this environment
[08:48] <froud> that includes myself
[08:48] <mdke> just saying, bummer
[08:48] <froud> sure ;-)
[08:48] <mpt> hmm
[08:48] <froud> hmmm?
[08:48] <mpt> Where *is* the help front page, anyway?
[08:49] <mpt> It doesn't seem to be in ubuntu-docs
[08:49] <jdub> mpt: it's generated
[08:49] <jsgotangco> sometimes being a user is much easier than being involved
[08:49] <jdub> mpt: part of yelp
[08:49] <mpt> oh
[08:49] <froud> dynamic created via scrollkeeper and yelp
[08:49] <jdub> mpt: we can 'massage' this
[08:49] <froud> depending on the categories define
[08:49] <jsgotangco> i dont think we can move stuff from scrollkeeper/yelp to focus on ubuntu docs
[08:50] <jdub> mpt: if you can come up with a design for the ideal front page, i'll make sure it happens
[08:50] <mpt> jdub: Ok, well first thing I'd like to do is massage it to get rid of the beautiful, but very large and not-very-useful, lifesaver illustration
[08:50] <jdub> mpt: obviously it should be an even more enormous ubuntu logo.
[08:51] <mpt> yess!
[08:51] <mpt> then we can rename "System" > "Help" to "System" > "Get Up Close And Personal With The Ubuntu Logo"
[08:52] <jdub> mpt: maybe our users need intimacy help.
[08:52] <mpt> Heck, they're using Linux
[08:52] <mpt> oh wait
[08:52] <jsgotangco> im getting some fresh air and think
[08:52] <mpt> jdub: jdub: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelp#head-e3caaf3346cddbf1f6f5272eeb1c84d951685a54-2
[08:53] <mpt> That's what I'd like the front page to look like
[08:53] <jdub> that's pretty long for the front page
[08:53] <mpt> Yeah, I'm trying hard to keep it to 12 items
[08:53] <mpt> maybe I'll narrow it further
[08:53] <jdub> the "if you're new" bit could be a box on the side or something though
[08:54] <mpt> maybe
[08:54] <froud> And how do you plan to make it go to the side?
[08:54] <mpt> though IMO a help viewer shouldn't be large enough, by default, to have anything on the side
[08:54] <froud> yelp xsls have no support for it
[08:54] <k31th> morning
[08:54] <jdub> mpt: we can be pretty artful about page composition though
[08:55] <mpt> HTML 1.0 would be a good language to write help in
[08:55] <froud> now you're talking
[08:56] <froud> mpt: this is part of the reason why I am targeting HTML
[08:56] <mpt> froud: No, really, it isn't
[08:56] <froud> Yelp reads HTML well enough
[08:56] <froud> isnt what?
[08:56] <mpt> froud: You're talking about making stuff readable in a Web browser
[08:57] <mpt> I don't care about help in a Web browser, a Web browser has far too much chrome
[08:57] <froud> and yelp reads HTML
[08:57] <mpt> I'm talking just about the amount of presentation artfulness HTML 1.0 allowed.
[08:57] <mpt> Not HTML 4 or 3.2 or 2.
[08:58] <froud> well, let me see, if the ubuntu docs are readable in help and the index page is html, then we will not have a problem with that requirement :-)
[08:58] <froud> but I cant see why to use 1.0 when 4.0 is supported
[08:59] <froud> seems like going backward ;-)
[08:59] <froud> anyway, your call
[08:59] <froud> must do work, c ya all
[08:59] <mpt> froud: HTML 2.0 and 3.2 and 4.0 were invented to let Web designers do cooler things.
[08:59] <mpt> Coolness is not the point of help.
[09:00] <jdub> mpt: that said, interest, interactivity and context are pretty useful
[09:00] <froud> mpt: I am not going to get into another debate on this, we have already gone in square circles on such issues. I suggest you just do it and commit it to svn
[09:01] <k31th> speak in an hour guys
[09:01] <mpt> froud: That's what I'm trying to do, but first I need to work out how to massage the front page :-)
[09:01] <froud> to me what is importnat now is the doc contents
[09:01] <mpt> brb
[09:01] <froud> k31th: kk
[09:03] <mdke> mpt, it tends to get worked on when we are sorting out the packaging towards the end of the cycle afaics
[09:03] <mdke> but a wiki page is a good idea for working on it in the meantime
[09:03] <jdub> mdke: this requires up front design/goals work
[09:04] <mdke> jdub, what does?
[09:04] <jsgotangco> i dunno if you're read the logs or read some lists but i've said before that the yelp front page needs to be fixed in order and that's the problem ubuntu docs arent even visible and even i18n docs arent accessible when help is selected instaed you get the english page
[09:04] <jdub> mdke: yelp front page and related requirements
[09:05] <mdke> jdub, well feel free to work on it
[09:05] <mdke> jsgotangco, yeah i saw your emails, hopefully enrico will work on it a bit?
[09:05] <jsgotangco> enrico said its tricky
[09:05] <mdke> basically the whole svn structure is borked?
[09:06] <mdke> i guess its come together in a piecemeal way
[09:06] <jsgotangco> if i remember right enrico said jdub tried it before
[09:06] <mdke> jsgotangco, did you see my PM?
[09:06] <jsgotangco> oh sorry about that
[09:07] <jdub> the svn structure was defined without knowledge of what needed to be done on disk
[09:07] <jdub> and how to integrate with the distro
[09:07] <jdub> so that just needs to be fixed up a bit
[09:07] <jdub> not a huge issue
[09:08] <jsgotangco> im getting more confused
[09:08] <jsgotangco> i should be working instead of getting confused on this
[09:08] <mdke> that would be cool if it can get fixed
[09:12] <mdke> got to run now
[09:12] <mdke> back saturday evening
[09:51] <froud> jdub: what's wrong with svn structure?
[09:59] <jeffsch> hey froud. how to do vendor drop?
[10:02] <jsgotangco> its outside trunk
[10:03] <froud> jeffsch: hi, a copy of upstream docs in svn, we have not used it yet
[10:04] <froud> jsgotangco: what is jdub saying about svn structure? can somebody explain?
[10:04] <jeffsch> there are no upstream in svn, right?
[10:04] <jsgotangco> froud, i dont understand it either
[10:04] <froud> not yet, your idea is spot on though
[10:04] <jsgotangco> way over my head this infrastructure talk
[10:04] <froud> wanted to do this long ago, but technical reason prohibit
[10:05] <jeffsch> if it gets done, will our mods go upstream?
[10:05] <mpt> My second-favorite feature in Moin: "The lock of MatthewPaulThomas timed out 0 minute(s) ago, and you were granted the lock for this page."
[10:06] <jsgotangco> eh?
[10:07] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, i need to fix my priorities atm, personal, ubuntu, work (if i have one)
[10:08] <jsgotangco> most likely, im going to move somewhere in NA
[10:08] <froud> jeffsch: yes we can push upstream
[10:09] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: cool
[10:09] <froud> jsgotangco: personal, work, ubuntu is that order should be fine
[10:09] <froud> jeffsch: it's more complicated than this of course
[10:10] <jeffsch> froud: is it mandatory to push upstream, or optional? If we are ubuntufying docs, they won't be good for upstream
[10:10] <froud> optional
[10:10] <froud> we only want to puch up what is generic
[10:10] <jeffsch> good
[10:10] <froud> no point having ubuntu stuff in KDE or GNOME
[10:11] <froud> for the most part it is about content reuse
[10:11] <jeffsch> so what stops us from grabbing an xml doc from gnome cvs and making it our own?
[10:11] <froud> not branding or ubuntufying
[10:11] <jsgotangco> we can push to upstream generic/common
[10:11] <jsgotangco> that question escapes me as well
[10:11] <froud> jeffsch: no point, we lose the upstream pwoer
[10:11] <froud> power
[10:12] <jeffsch> but if the doc is not good for upstream when we are done with it, so what?
[10:12] <froud> we want  to do svn up in vendor and get all the upstream changes
[10:13] <jsgotangco> froud, would it be possible to remove all existing upstream docs and just let scrollkeeper monitor our stuff
[10:13] <jeffsch> but the upstream changes will screw up our changes. If upstream changes, say, a screen shot, it will screw up our doc
[10:13] <jeffsch> i guess I'm talking fork, huh?
[10:13] <froud> As I said it is more complex than this
[10:13] <froud> cant explain it now, perhaps ove rthe weekend
[10:14] <froud> but take a look at the svn-book look at vendor drops
[10:14] <jeffsch> ok
[10:14] <froud> must go to meetings
[10:14] <jsgotangco> froud, point existing docs to vendor drop then if its supported?
[10:14] <jeffsch> must go to bed
[10:14] <froud> if somebody can tell me the problem with svn structure, it would be good
[10:14] <froud> bye
[10:27] <Burgundavia> hey, just got back
[10:28] <Burgundavia> froud-away, no I haven't found the file, and no I haven't done anything with the ubuntuguide, beyond some more looks at it
[10:37] <k31th> Morning
[10:38] <jsgotangco> hey
[10:39] <k31th> jsgotangco: watsup
[10:39] <k31th> now the question is do i be fat and get chips again
[10:40] <jsgotangco> thats nice dont forget the dip
[10:42] <jsgotangco> hmm
[10:42] <jsgotangco> brb
[10:49] <k31th> yeah
[11:07] <Kinnison> Hihi peeps
[11:08] <Burgundavia> salut Kinnison, my darling
[11:23] <jsgotangco> does AvantGo have a competitor?
[11:23] <Burgundavia> what is avantgo?
[11:23] <jsgotangco> ackk
[11:23] <jsgotangco> you have a tungsten and dont know avantgo?
[11:24] <Kinnison> What about her five sisters?
[11:24] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:24] <jsgotangco> nice one
[11:24] <jsgotangco> anyway avantgo, you pull info online sync to your laptop
[11:25] <Kinnison> people always beat me up :_(
[11:25] <Kinnison> doesn't avantgo also do format conversion & stuff?
[11:25] <jsgotangco> yeah pretty much
[11:25] <Burgundavia> "What makes Gnome less fun for me is the fact that Gnome is a stable high-quality codebase that I'm spending all my time maintaining"
[11:25] <Burgundavia> that is a funny quote
[11:26] <jsgotangco> ive been looking at universe and saw some conduits for avantgo
[11:27] <jsgotangco> get used to it, you dived in :P
[11:27] <Burgundavia> yep
[11:27] <Burgundavia> currently waiting on upgrading my hal until all that is sorted
[11:29] <Burgundavia> sick taht it took this long --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4518599.stm
[11:29] <Burgundavia> and on the other side, way too soon --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4543501.stm
[11:30] <jsgotangco> the answer to your question is 42
[11:30] <jsgotangco> beatification too arly
[11:30] <Burgundavia> right, need to go see that movie
[11:30] <jsgotangco> he's barely dead for 40 days methinks
[11:31] <Kinnison> To be fair, the current pope would probably be dead before the beatification was complete if he waited the normal five years
[11:31] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:32] <jsgotangco> he's not that frail
[11:32] <Burgundavia> just wait until the papal poisoners get to him
[11:35] <Burgundavia> this thread makes me wince --> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=28232
[11:35] <Burgundavia> we need better communication between the devs and the great unwashed about that sort of stuff
[11:36] <jsgotangco> hmm
[11:36] <jsgotangco> strange
[11:36] <jsgotangco> they can do that stuff in hoary
[11:36] <Burgundavia> most of what they are suggesting has already been thought of or is being done
[11:37] <jsgotangco> yeah
[11:37] <Burgundavia> it just needs to be communicated better
[11:37] <jsgotangco> "A GUI Installer is a must"
[11:38] <Burgundavia> not really
[11:38] <Burgundavia> a better install partitioner is better bet
[11:38] <jsgotangco> just quoted the thread he
[11:39] <Burgundavia> yes, I read that
[11:39] <Burgundavia> someone needs to distill it for the -devel list
[11:39] <Burgundavia> I think I might right now
[11:39] <Burgundavia> actually, 2 emails I think
[11:39] <Burgundavia> one about communication
[11:39] <Burgundavia> and one about breezy stuff
[12:18] <jsgotangco> bye bye
[12:18] <Burgundavia> cvya
[03:26] <mpt> My third-favorite feature in Moin: How it logs you out in the middle of an edit, and going Back doesn't work.
[03:34] <Kinnison> are you doing something strange?
[04:08] <mpt> Kinnison: No, I'm just editing for several hours at a stretch
[04:10] <Kinnison> mpt: and moin logged you out?!
[04:10] <Kinnison> mpt: I've had zwiki log me out while editing, but never moin
[04:10] <mpt> yep, "You are not allowed to edit this page"
[04:11] <Kinnison> boggle!
[04:11] <mpt> and because it's over HTTPs, the previous page isn't cached, so going Back doesn't work
[04:11] <mpt> HTTPS, rather
[04:11] <Kinnison> aye. I never edit in the browser
[04:12] <mpt> heh
[04:37] <jdub> Kinnison: dude, i installed mozex and can't get to any prefs to set the editor - seems like it really wants mozilla
[04:40] <Kinnison> jdub: the prefs window is all b0rked
[04:40] <Kinnison> jdub: in prefs.js, I have:
[04:40] <Kinnison> user_pref("mozex.command.textarea", "/usr/bin/emacs %t");
[04:40] <jdub> ahar!
[04:40] <jdub> thanks :)
[04:42] <Kinnison> I took apart the jar and worked it out that way :-)
[04:44] <jdub> heh
[04:48] <jdub> hrm
[04:48] <jdub> it doesn't believe me
[04:50] <Kinnison> didja nuke XUL.mfasl?
[04:51] <jdub> i did not!
[04:52] <jdub> boh
[04:52] <jdub> no love
[05:06] <Kinnison> feh :-(
[05:06] <Kinnison> it works for me, but I've had the same .mozilla for aaaaages
[10:20] <froud> anyone know how to get a word count from POT files?