[12:46] <Burgundavia> salut mpt
[07:06] <mpt> hello Burgundavia
[07:07] <Burgundavia> how goes life on saturday?
[07:07] <mpt> well, I have a couple of wounds from rusty nails
[07:07] <Burgundavia> ouch
[07:07] <mpt> but other than that, I'm fine :-)
[07:08] <mpt> Are you in Saturday yet?
[07:08] <Burgundavia> well, emailed usablity with that nautilus-cd stuff
[07:08] <Burgundavia> not yet
[07:08] <Burgundavia> is Friday 22:08
[07:08] <mpt> You're spending a Friday night on IRC?
[07:08] <Burgundavia> yep
[07:09] <Burgundavia> victoria has a very boring nightlife
[07:10] <Burgundavia> now I am figuring out why gnome-network doesn't appear to be built for hoary
[07:10] <mpt> I spent Friday night on IRC *and* drawing Web page mockups
[07:11] <Burgundavia> lol
[07:11] <Burgundavia> are you single?
[07:12] <mpt> No, and I was supposed to call my girlfriend to wake her up at 10pm, but I forgot
[07:12] <Burgundavia> oops
[07:12] <Burgundavia> single, but I still spend a lot of time with my ex
[07:12] <mpt> Fortunately she had prepared for my forgetfulness by setting her alarm clock and arranging for someone else to call her at that time too
[07:12] <Burgundavia> mpt, have you had any thoughts regarding the repository dialog in synaptic
[07:13] <mpt> none at all
[07:13] <Burgundavia> damn
[07:13] <Burgundavia> I haven't had a eureka moment with it yet
[07:13] <mpt> You have 1 broken package on your system!
[07:13] <mpt> Use the "Broken" filter to locate it.
[07:14] <Burgundavia> under "custom"
[07:14] <Burgundavia> that was the other thought I had
[07:14] <Burgundavia> merge status and custom
[07:14] <Burgundavia> and remember old searchs
[07:14] <mpt> those buttons are just wrong
[07:15] <mpt> ok, I've found the broken package, now what do I do
[07:15] <Burgundavia> what is it?
[07:15] <mpt> bazaar-dbg
[07:15] <Burgundavia> no idea
[07:15] <Burgundavia> probably needs a dependency that it didn't find, our you installed it with dpkg
[07:15] <mpt> Because I was on bazaar COTM, and I downgraded to bazaar 1.3.2, but didn't downgrade bazaar-dbg at the same time
[07:15] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:16] <mpt> ah, upgrading it requires upgrading bazaar too
[07:16] <mpt> well, now that I have 1.25 GB RAM...
[07:16] <mpt> ok, let's look at this repositories dialog
[07:16] <Burgundavia> here is a UI thought, drop the search button and merge status and custom
[07:16] <mpt> "Building repository dialog / Please wait." is just Wrong
[07:17] <Burgundavia> you got your mac back yet?
[07:17] <mpt> no, it's supposed to be arriving in a day or two
[07:17] <mpt> "synaptic" as the window title is also wrong
[07:17] <Burgundavia> filed a bug already, been fixed
[07:18] <mpt> "You can add and remove authentication keys in this dialog."
[07:18] <mpt> Quit telling me about dialogs
[07:19] <mpt> That's like going to a person and saying "Can you help me?", and they don't say "Yes, I can help you", they say "Yes, I'm a human who can help you"
[07:19] <Burgundavia> the window needs a title, no?
[07:19] <mpt> yes
[07:19] <Burgundavia> here is my redesign bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10453
[07:19] <mpt> and if the "Add" button has text rather than just being a "+", it should end in "..."
[07:19] <Burgundavia> not really fleshed out yet
[07:20] <Burgundavia> what does restore default keys do? is there a way to do that without having to bother the user?
[07:20] <mpt> What did you mean by "adding a custom dialog"?
[07:21] <Burgundavia> sorry, custom repo
[07:21] <mpt> ah
[07:21] <Burgundavia> that wasn't my most inspired piece of writing
[07:21] <Burgundavia> in fact, it is total crap
[07:21] <Burgundavia> I think I will rewrite
[07:21] <Burgundavia> but I need a consistent vision
[07:22] <mpt> I just had the (untitled) Repository Settings dialog open, but now I switched away from it and switched back, it's gone, and nothing works in any of the other windows
[07:22] <mpt> gtk-bug! :-)
[07:23] <mpt> W: GPG error: http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com hoary Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG 40976EAF437D05B5 Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key <ftpmaster@ubuntu.com>
[07:23] <Burgundavia> that happens sometimes
[07:23] <Burgundavia> time errors cause it
[07:24] <mpt> The first thing I noticed about Synaptic was that it had two Search buttons
[07:24] <mpt> and that the second seemed to do anything
[07:24] <Burgundavia> generally, everytime I think about synaptic and how to fix it, I run away crying
[07:24] <mpt> didn't seem to do anything, I mean
[07:24] <Burgundavia> hmm, yes
[07:25] <Burgundavia> should be dropped for the typeahead style, ala web browser entry bars
[07:25] <mpt> yeah
[07:25] <mpt> Who's the programmer here?
[07:25] <mpt> the programmer for synaptic, I mean
[07:25] <Burgundavia> however, I think they want to pour resources into a new package installer, rather than fix synaptic
[07:25] <Burgundavia> no idea
[07:26] <mpt> Who's they?
[07:26] <Burgundavia> distro team
[07:26] <Burgundavia> canonical in general
[07:26] <Burgundavia> tie the new software installer into launchpad
[07:27] <mpt> Is this under http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs somewhere?
[07:27] <mpt> It's not in http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration
[07:28] <mpt> ah, http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/PackageManagementRoadmap
[07:28] <Burgundavia> yep, thats it
[07:29] <Burgundavia> not currently a breezy goal
[07:29] <Burgundavia> so I guess I had better start filing bugs on syn
[07:30] <mpt> I don't like the idea of package management in general, but I guess it's essential on a system where you can't rely on anything in particular being installed
[07:31] <mpt> so maybe have two tabs, "Installed Packages" and "Available Packages"
[07:32] <Burgundavia> and a simple search dialog
[07:32] <mpt> nah, a search field at the top of each tab
[07:32] <mpt> like you said earlier
[07:33] <Burgundavia> should I file a bug about a complete synaptic redesign?
[07:33] <Burgundavia> think that is worth it?
[07:33] <mpt> Have you ever in your life seen a bug report like that get used and marked fixed?
[07:34] <Burgundavia> nope
[07:34] <mpt> I don't think that's the sort of thing bug reports are good for
[07:34] <Burgundavia> yah
[07:34] <Burgundavia> that is the other thing that stopped me
[07:34] <Burgundavia> I don't no who the synaptic upstream is
[07:35] <Burgundavia> hmm, used to be connectiva
[07:35] <mpt> http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/contribute.html
[07:35] <Burgundavia> mvo is the debian maintainer
[07:35] <mpt> one of the maintainers is Michael Vogt, who's also the Ubuntu Bugzilla assignee
[07:36] <Burgundavia> ya
[07:36] <Burgundavia> mvo = Michael Vogt
[07:37] <mpt> Put it down as a BoF for the next conference :-)
[07:37] <Burgundavia> I think I will put together something for -devel and see where it goes
[07:37] <mpt> Then I can wiki a design spec for it
[07:38] <Burgundavia> there are bits and pieces of a design spec
[07:38] <mpt> where?
[07:38] <Burgundavia> we talked about it in # -devel a few months back
[07:39] <Burgundavia> and there are bits with gnome-app-install
[07:40] <mpt> gnome-app-install?
[07:40] <mpt> Hmm, I seem to have that installed somewhere
[07:40] <Burgundavia> the applications-->system tools-->add/remove programs
[07:41] <Burgundavia> that half formed mess
[07:41] <mpt> oh, man, why is that a separate app
[07:41] <mpt> why why why
[07:41] <Burgundavia> that is the attempt to make a new app installer
[07:42] <mpt> haha
[07:42] <Burgundavia> dying on the alter of no-time
[07:43] <mpt> I just spent a few minutes choosing a pile of stuff to install, clicked "Apply", and ... "You must run this program as the root user"
[07:43] <Burgundavia> oops
[07:43] <Burgundavia> it should do that by default
[07:43] <Burgundavia> oh, you ran from the commandline
[07:43] <mpt> yes
[07:44] <mpt> Not that that should have made a difference
[07:44] <Burgundavia> there was talk of a RequiresRoot in the .desktop file, so that programs that require root just take it
[07:44] <mpt> It should have asked me for my password either way
[07:45] <Burgundavia> hmm, there are a lot of things that we want to hide from the average user that are very useful for the power user, like dependencies
[07:46] <mpt> However. I shall concentrate on my BreezyGoals.
[07:46] <Burgundavia> what are yours?
[07:46] <Burgundavia> I will think out a new design, and play with it
[07:46] <mpt> Launchpad 1.0, and fix the Ubuntu Help
[07:47] <Burgundavia> you being paid for number 2?
[07:47] <mpt> and design the new hardware data collection tool
[07:47] <mpt> no
[07:47] <Burgundavia> oh
[07:47] <mpt> Maybe I should have said "Breezy goals" rather than "BreezyGoals" :-)
[07:47] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:47] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:48] <mpt> Hmmm, it might be good to set a target of bugs to report before Breezy too
[07:48] <Burgundavia> lol
[07:49] <jsgotangco> ewwwww
[07:49] <Burgundavia> I also filed this --> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10454
[07:49] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, huh?
[07:49] <jsgotangco> i found my old P166 Sony Vaio PC
[07:49] <jsgotangco> and just booted it up
[07:50] <Burgundavia> does it run windows?
[07:50] <jsgotangco> aye win98
[07:50] <jsgotangco> heh
[07:50] <jsgotangco> it still woks though
[07:50] <jsgotangco> keyboarrd is pretty bad though
[07:52] <jsgotangco> this can be fixed 
[07:53] <Burgundavia> mpt, what was that about the add and remove buttons
[07:57] <Burgundavia> mpt,  "Authentication keys allow the verification of the software you download"
[07:57] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you can comment as well
[07:59] <jsgotangco> verfication of what
[07:59] <jsgotangco> authenticity?
[07:59] <Burgundavia> good point
[07:59] <Burgundavia> I am filing bugs surrounding synaptic
[08:00] <Burgundavia> open the repo dialog in synaptic and look at authentication
[08:02] <Burgundavia> "Authentication keys allow are used to check software integrity"
[08:03] <Burgundavia> "Authentication keys are used to check software integrity"
[08:17] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: you still thinkin of moving to NA?
[08:57] <Burgundavia> mpt, I think I just realised why the repo add dialog was bugging me so much. There is a visual disconnect between the add dialog and the show repo dialog
[09:07] <mpt> hey now
[09:08] <mpt> Burgundavia: Why is the "Ubuntu 5.04 Security Updates" repository turned off by default?!?
[09:08] <Burgundavia> mpt, I don't think it is. The repo add thing doesn't reflect what repos are actually there
[09:09] <mpt> Burgundavia: And I challenge you to find a single window in Synaptic that has a correct title (i.e. a title that (a) exists, (b) accurately describes the purpose of the window, and (c) doesn't end in punctuation)
[09:09] <Burgundavia> mpt, hmm, I don't think I am going to take that bet
[09:10] <mpt> No, I just added the Security Updates repository, and now I have three rather than two
[09:10] <Burgundavia> the whole add dialog thing is very fragile
[09:10] <mpt> Yes, switch to another window, then switch back to it, it disappears
[09:10] <Burgundavia> I was speaking more on the editing your sources.list
[09:11] <mpt> "The repository information has changes. A backup copy of your sources.list is stored in /etc/apt/sources.list.save. You need to reload the package list from the servers for your changes to take effect. Do you want to do this now?" ( No, I Was Just Adding the Repository For Fun ) ( Yes )
[09:12] <Burgundavia> probably it should just reload?
[09:12] <mpt> yes
[09:12] <Burgundavia> ok, will file a bug about that
[09:12] <Burgundavia> poor mvo
[09:12] <mpt> Rather than filing a bug that the alert is incorrectly titled "Information" :-)
[09:13] <mpt> So gaim, gzip, Firefox, and OpenOffice, amongst others, were insecure on my system because the Security Updates repository was off by default.
[09:14] <Burgundavia> done
[09:14] <Burgundavia> gah
[09:14] <mpt> gah?
[09:15] <Burgundavia> wrong window
[09:15] <Burgundavia> check out the "set internal option" option
[09:16] <Burgundavia> and add cdrom is not with the add repos dialog
[09:18] <Burgundavia> bugzilla is horrible at sorting bugs
[09:27] <mpt> It's going to be another 24 minutes and 6 seconds before I can explore Synaptic further
[09:27] <mpt> That's another bug ... It's almost certainly not going to be 24 minutes and 6 seconds, it should just say "about 24 minutes"
[09:27] <Burgundavia> oh, you upgrading?
[09:27] <mpt> that whole window needs redesigning, really
[09:27] <mpt> Yeah, I'm installing the security updates
[09:28] <Burgundavia> the whole gui needs a redesign
[09:28] <Burgundavia> that is what is so scary, and can really be best done at a bof
[09:28] <mpt> It'd take longer than a BoF
[09:28] <Burgundavia> how about a hackfest week?
[09:28] <Burgundavia> and some good user studies?
[09:28] <mpt> When I was at UDU I had no time to finish any design specs, it was scary
[09:29] <Burgundavia> I gather UDU was crazy
[09:29] <mpt> Well, I haven't been to any other distro meetings, so I've got nothing to compare it to
[09:29] <Burgundavia> nor have I
[09:30] <Burgundavia> well, Mataro wasn't that crazy
[09:30] <Burgundavia> morning of bofs, afternoon of hack
[09:30] <Burgundavia> here is another one, the right-click and package menu are subtly different
[09:37] <mpt> in what way?
[09:37] <Burgundavia> gossip only does jabber, no aim/yahoo/icq
[09:37] <Burgundavia> but gossip is very very cool
[09:38] <Burgundavia> higgy and simple
[09:38] <mpt> ah
[09:38] <Burgundavia> and the icons rock
[09:38] <mpt> I'll install it in 12 minutes and 54 seconds and see
[09:38] <mpt> Things that look like checkboxes should check when you click them
[09:39] <mpt> they shouldn't open a menu
[09:39] <Burgundavia> where?
[09:39] <mpt> in the package list
[09:39] <Burgundavia> oh, yes
[09:39] <mpt> if you want to offer some choices, fine, but dont' make it look like a checkbox
[09:39] <mpt> make it look like a menu
[09:39] <mpt> the Microsoft Office installer gets that right.
[09:39] <Burgundavia> and then have a bunch of stuff greyed out
[09:41] <mpt> http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/inst08.gif
[09:42] <Burgundavia> yes, but the dialog is mostly evil elsewhere
[09:42] <mpt> what dialog?
[09:42] <mpt> I'm *just* talking about the checkboxes
[09:42] <Burgundavia> the installer
[09:43] <Burgundavia> what would you call the green square?
[09:43] <Burgundavia> status icon?
[09:44] <mpt> I wouldn't
[09:44] <Burgundavia> oh
[09:45] <Burgundavia> what would you call it?
[09:45] <mpt> I'd change it to a menu, as used in the MS Office installer
[09:45] <mpt> except make it an option menu, rather than a pull-down menu
[09:45] <Burgundavia> did you just read my bug report?
[09:45] <mpt> what bug report?
[09:46] <Burgundavia> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10761
[09:46] <Burgundavia> been filing like mad while we talk
[09:48] <mpt> well, that depends on how useful the other options are
[09:48] <mpt> I can't remember, and I can't see them a.t.m.
[09:49] <Burgundavia> the other options are complete remove and reinstall
[09:49] <Burgundavia> for an installed package
[09:49] <Burgundavia> forgot about upgrade
[09:50] <Burgundavia> just added that
[09:51] <Burgundavia> "*   The problem is so bad on Windows that there is a Desktop  Cleanup Wizard."
[09:51] <mpt> yeah
[09:51] <mpt> I don't know the difference between Remove and Completely Remove
[09:52] <Burgundavia> completely remove does the config files as well
[09:53] <mpt> what is this
[09:53] <mpt> "Debconf on ubuntu"
[09:53] <mpt> "What would you like to do about postgresql.conf?"
[09:53] <Burgundavia> where is that from?
[09:54] <mpt> It popped up during the installation
[09:54] <Burgundavia> hmm, odd, no idea
[09:55] <mpt> I chose "show the difference between the versions" and clicked Forward, and it seems to have hung
[09:55] <Burgundavia> oh
[09:55] <Burgundavia> what is your cpu doing?
[09:55] <Burgundavia> it may be grinding away, apt is not very optomised
[09:56] <mpt> Cpu(s): 10.6% us,  1.0% sy,  0.0% ni, 88.1% id,  0.0% wa,  0.3% hi,  0.0% si
[09:57] <Burgundavia> hmm, idle
[09:58] <Burgundavia> http://www.metallikop.com/images/blog/wptray-lg.png
[09:58] <Burgundavia> run away now
[09:59] <mpt> and now I think synaptic as a whole is going to be waiting forever for debconf to tell it it's finished
[10:00] <mpt> hehe, "More Options"
[10:00] <mpt> "recursive directory links will lockup [sic]  the program"
[10:01] <Burgundavia> http://www.gnome-look.org/index.php?page=4 <-- someone needs to increase the size of page links here
[10:01] <Burgundavia> at the bottom
[10:01] <mpt> I don't mind, I have my minimum font size set to 10px
[10:03] <Burgundavia> geez gnome-look.org is filled with ubuntu backgrounds
[10:06] <mpt> heh, I noticed
[10:06] <mpt> anyway, time for work
[10:07] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:07] <Burgundavia> thanks
[10:08] <mpt> E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a' to correct the problem.
[10:09] <Burgundavia> it should just do that for you
[10:09] <mpt> indeed.
[10:09] <Burgundavia> you going to file a bug on that?
[10:10] <mpt> No, I'm going to get back to work
[11:07] <Burgundavia> salut enrico 
[11:10] <enrico> hi
[11:19] <Burgundavia> enrico, how is life going?
[11:19] <enrico> not too bad
[11:19] <enrico> although this afternoon I'll be at a marriage and I'm not fond of loong social events
[11:19] <Burgundavia> ouch
[11:35] <Burgundavia> salut mdke 
[12:29] <abelli> ciao
[03:33] <froud> enrico: hi, thanks
[03:34] <froud> enrico: you home?
[03:42] <enrico> froud: for little
[03:42] <enrico> froud: gotta go to a marriage
[03:42] <enrico> froud: does it build for you?
[03:42] <froud> thanks for that
[03:42] <froud> have not tested yet
[03:43] <froud> just been generating unique id values
[03:43] <froud> you think we need to upload it to debian for now
[03:43] <froud> can it wait a bit
[03:44] <enrico> sure we can wait
[03:44] <froud> I was thinking I would try it out on my system, then get some of the people on the team to try it
[03:44] <froud> then iron out bugs
[03:44] <froud> and then do deb and ubuntu
[03:44] <enrico> maybe it's better to upload it in Debian with an HTML version as well, since there's no direct need to have it as a build-dep there
[03:45] <froud> yes, can do 
[03:45] <abelli_> ai
[03:45] <froud> I will make the deb available from the web site
[03:45] <froud> hello abelli 
[03:45] <froud> As a test case I will impliment it on the generic installation guide
[03:46] <froud> that way people in the team can see what it does, how it works
[03:48] <froud> enrico: ok will keep you posted
[03:48] <froud> enrico: with regard to how it works I have added to README
[03:48] <froud> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/project/web-sample.html
[03:51] <enrico> froud: nice!  Is the README inside dict/ ?
[03:56] <froud> enrico: Uh no, in trunk/
[03:56] <froud> good point
[04:02] <froud> now it is
[04:04] <enrico> you can put it inside debian/
[04:04] <enrico> froud: if you don't like it just inside dict
[04:04] <froud> nah it's ok in dict
[04:05] <enrico> froud: cool!  cdbs found the README and included it in the package by itself
[04:05] <enrico> no need for me to update the packaging! :)
[04:06] <froud> yeah ;-)
[04:06] <froud> I dont think there will ever be much need to update it
[04:06] <froud> the tree is very stable
[09:04] <mdke> this piece of shit router