[02:52] <Kamion> hi
[02:52] <kiko> hey there
[02:52] <ogra> hi guys
[02:52] <kiko> hey there
[02:53] <kiko> camilotelles_, meet Kamion (colin) and ogra (oliver)
[02:53] <kiko> Kamion, ogra: camilotelles_ manages the team
[02:53] <camilotelles_> hi Kamion and ogra
[02:53] <ogra> hi
[02:53] <Kamion> hi Camilo
[02:53] <camilotelles_> Kamion, meet surak, robinho and dilago. 
[02:53] <surak> we are the team :-)
[02:53] <Dilago> hehe hi
[02:54] <ogra> hi team ;)
[02:54] <Robinho> hi
[02:54] <Kamion> hey folks, good to have you on board.
[02:54] <Kamion> so, have you guys all read http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress ?
[02:54] <camilotelles_> there is more one. Pablo. He is not here now, he is teaching.
[02:54] <surak> sure
[02:54] <Dilago> yep
[02:54] <Robinho> yes
[02:54] <ogra> i just started to make a little mockup of my GUI ideas, but since i'm not ready yet, we should discuss it without...
[02:55] <Kamion> I don't know if you guys have much familiarity with our existing installer code.
[02:55] <surak> we ain't looked at your install code yet.
[02:55] <Kamion> if not, I suspect you'll get familiar pretty quickly. :-)
[02:55] <ogra> heh
[02:55] <camilotelles_> but we have already modified the knoppix code for our purposes.
[02:56] <camilotelles_> knoppix/kurumin.
[02:56] <surak> As I could read, your live cd runs as a profile for your installation program, am I correct?
[02:56] <Kamion> Well, the goal here is a little different, because (just as we do at the moment) we want to build both the installer and the live CD from the same codebase.
[02:56] <Kamion> surak: right, that's a good description of it.
[02:56] <camilotelles_> excelent idea.
[02:57] <surak> I already saw something about dloop - and using the .debs as a part of live cd's tree. What's the status?
[02:57] <Kamion> OK, let me give you a quick run-down of the current approach.
[02:58] <Kamion> On our build daemons, we build a compressed loop (cloop) filesystem out of standard distro packages.
[02:58] <Kamion> That's basically "build chroot, install lots of packages into it, run create_compressed_filesystem".
[02:58] <Kamion> We put that image as a huge file on our live CDs.
[02:58] <surak> just like we do already...
[02:58] <Kamion> right
[02:59] <Kamion> To boot this image, we wanted to start up just the same way as the install CD does, because that way we get exactly the same hardware detection
[02:59] <Kamion> this means we don't have to fix bugs twice (of course), and it means that the live CD becomes a much better test of whether the install CD's going to work on your hardware.
[03:00] <surak> but does grub behaves as good as isolinux running from cds?
[03:00] <Kamion> we don't use grub, because it behaved much worse.
[03:00] <Kamion> isolinux boots on much more hardware, as it turns out
[03:00] <surak> ok
[03:00] <Kamion> We essentially run the first half of the installer, and then drop into a new installer component we wrote called 'casper'
[03:01] <Kamion> this mounts the cloop, fiddles with it a bit to copy in parameters detected by the installer, and then pivot_roots and re-execs init.
[03:01] <Kamion> After that it's a regular system.
[03:02] <kiko> Kamion, why do you re-exec init?
[03:02] <Kamion> The challenge for a live CD installer, as we see it, is to run the *second* half of the installer, or equivalent - ideally using as much of the same code as possible. Bootloader installation especially is fiddly and has a lot of special cases related to partitioning that we want to preserve.
[03:02] <surak> It's the init from the big tree, not the one used before the huge tree was mounted, isn't it?
[03:02] <Kamion> kiko: the init running in the installer is a cut-down version; we don't want to run it permanently. Also, this lets us umount the initrd.
[03:03] <kiko> I see.
[03:03] <Kamion> and it's an easy way to do normal system startup
[03:04] <surak> The problem is that your second half of installation consists mostly of installing packages, instead of knoppix approach of copying the entire / fs. Am I correct?
[03:04] <kiko> Kamion, will we still preserve the installer version of the build?
[03:05] <Kamion> surak: That's the current approach, but for a live CD installer we'd want to copy /. You're right that it's not exactly the same procedure.
[03:05] <ogra> kiko, there will be a downloadable "install only" image
[03:05] <Kamion> kiko: yes, for server installs and other tasks that require more flexibility
[03:05] <Kamion> kiko: we'll probably only ship the live CD in shipit, though (reduces costs)
[03:06] <Kamion> people installing 2000 machines aren't going to want to use a live CD to do it. :-)
[03:06] <kiko> so the live cd installer is mainly for shipit and testing. 
[03:06] <kiko> gotcha
[03:06] <ogra> for the masses  :)
[03:06] <surak> Kamion, as the installer code is about the same, can't it be set as isolinux parameter?
[03:07] <surak> for init, I mean
[03:07] <Kamion> surak: I don't quite understand you
[03:07] <kiko> me neither
[03:07] <surak> You currently have two cds. One for live (which cannot be installed) and one for installation only.
[03:07] <Kamion> surak: oh, we don't have space on a CD for both
[03:08] <surak> ok
[03:08] <Kamion> surak: we ship a combined DVD though
[03:08] <Kamion> but like it or not, not everyone has DVD drives. :-)
[03:08] <Kamion> it is pretty much a boot-time parameter, though
[03:08] <Kamion> anyway
[03:08] <Kamion> the work we'd like you guys to do divides down into a couple of pieces:
[03:09] <surak> What I was thinking about was in setting a boot parameter, which could launch both the install and live. But you're correct, too much stuff, even with that dloop.
[03:09] <Kamion> (1) coordinate with ogra to figure out what information you need his graphical frontend to spit out (e.g. partitioning, mount points, whatever) to do your work, and agree on frmats
[03:09] <Kamion> formats
[03:10] <Kamion> (2) figure out how to actually reuse the installer code that needs to be reused (it's currently in udebs, which are not very convenient for use once the live CD has booted)
[03:10] <Kamion> (3) write any new components that need to happen (e.g. copying / to the target filesystem)
[03:10] <Kamion> I should probably elaborate slightly on (2)
[03:11] <ogra> i thought udebs are usable like deb, just more stipped...?
[03:11] <Kamion> instead of using .debs in the installer, we build reduced packages called .udebs (micro-debs). Some of them are collected together into an initrd, and some are installed at run-time by the installer's mini-packaging-system.
[03:12] <Kamion> This is very modular, and lets us re-use bits of code from the normal distribution, like parted and e2fsprogs.
[03:12] <Kamion> as ogra says, the package formats are more or less compatible, but there are problems:
[03:12] <Kamion> apt doesn't know how to fetch udebs;
[03:13] <Kamion> the dependency structure is quite different;
[03:13] <Kamion> and the filesystem layout in the installer isn't the same as you'd find in a normal system.
[03:13] <Kamion> Usually, rather than trying to install udebs in a normal system, you want to make the source package produce both debs and udebs of the same thing and use whichever one is appropriate.
[03:14] <Kamion> I can generally make this happen upstream where necessary
[03:14] <surak> couldn't those be already at the filesystem instead of installing it at boot time?
[03:14] <surak> (like parted)
[03:14] <Kamion> surak: yes, they could; we probably want them to be in .deb form anyway, so that they can be installed conveniently as part of the process of building the live CD, and so that it's easier for people customising the live CD to remove them if they want to.
[03:15] <Kamion> I imagine anything you need should just be a dependency of the live CD installer package
[03:16] <surak> Let me ask you something: the .debs are inside the livecd's tree?
[03:16] <Kamion> To start with, I'd recommend putting together something that works out of the pieces that are available in whatever way you can. Then we'll have a clear target for what refactoring needs to happen.
[03:16] <Kamion> surak: nope
[03:17] <Kamion> they're unpacked into the live CD's tree, but the original .deb files are not available
[03:17] <Kamion> again, space reasons
[03:17] <Kamion> we're running pretty close to the limit on the live CDs, and now pretty much any additions require removing some language support. :-(
[03:18] <ogra> will the opencd content stay ?
[03:18] <surak> opencd?
[03:18] <Kamion> ogra: remains to be seen. We'd like to keep it, but possibly/probably in a reduced form
[03:18] <ogra> surak, if you put the livecd in a windows box, it offers win-oss sorftware to you
[03:18] <Kamion> surak: free software built for Windows, with an autorun Windows frontend
[03:18] <surak> oh, i saw it
[03:19] <Kamion> also known as WinFOSS
[03:19] <ogra> thats a cool fearute but eats a lot of space
[03:19] <ogra> -r
[03:19] <surak> Specially openoffice
[03:19] <ogra> yep
[03:19] <Kamion> that's one of the areas of space flexibility, yeah
[03:19] <Kamion> it's really good for advocacy, though, so not first on the list to cut
[03:20] <ogra> but we could reduce it to the essential bits (mozilla/OO.o) if needed i guess
[03:20] <camilotelles_> kiko, kamion, ogra: I will have to leave know. After i will sync with my team. Good luck for us!
[03:20] <Kamion> camilotelles_: thanks
[03:20] <ogra> camilotelles_, yay
[03:21] <Kamion> So - any questions? The UbuntuExpress spec mentions a number of package names; doing 'apt-get source' on those and reading the code may be a useful starting point.
[03:22] <surak> There's too much common things between ooo linux and win. There's no easy way of using it inside the live tree and as a windows installer however. Anything in work about this matter?
[03:22] <kiko> Kamion: I would suggest setting up a weekly phone call with surak to checkpoint on how it's going
[03:22] <Kamion> surak: no, not at the moment
[03:22] <kiko> Kamion, I would also suggest giving him a concrete goal for this first set of days to make sure he starts off with something more practical than "reading the code"
[03:23] <Kamion> kiko: That makes sense. I'm not sure whether it'll be me or mdz making the calls from here on in, though, but I can start.
[03:23] <kiko> timezonewise it's the same
[03:23] <camilotelles_> i agree with kiko. a concrete goal is needed.
[03:23] <camilotelles_> bye
[03:23] <Kamion> OK, let me ponder for a moment :-)
[03:23] <kiko> do it
[03:24] <surak> Kamion, ogra: at first, it would be interesting for us to reproduce your build daemon.
[03:25] <Kamion> The first thing we need is a working prototype. Don't worry about how it looks for now; just put together something that asks for the partition on which to put /, then copies the live CD's / onto it, installs a boot loader, and reboots
[03:25] <ogra> surak, then you should talk to lamont, its a sbuild setup....
[03:25] <kiko> ogra, or kinnison
[03:25] <ogra> kiko, oh, i didnt know :)
[03:25] <Kamion> reusing the boot loader code that's there, one way or another
[03:25] <Kamion> no, it's not quite sbuild
[03:26] <ogra> Kamion, thats what lamont told me
[03:26] <kiko> yeah, because kinnison has been working on the lp side of builds. but anyway
[03:26] <Kamion> but talk to lamont, yes; we haven't yet made that code public, but I'm sure he can give you it for this
[03:26] <Kamion> LaMont Jones <lamont@ubuntu.com>
[03:26] <surak> so we can test out stuff and broke our own builds several times a day
[03:27] <Kamion> surak: for testing, wouldn't it be easier to boot the live CD and install stuff into it directly?
[03:27] <Kamion> I imagine it'd be quicker, at least ...
[03:27] <surak> For one-time testing, yes
[03:28] <surak> But for testing with different hardware, may be not. 
[03:28] <Kamion> as in, build packages, stick them in a local apt archive, install them, remove if necessary, install again ...
[03:28] <Kamion> ogra: possibly some confusion; the build daemon itself is sbuild, that's true, but the piece that builds the live CD compressed filesystem is not
[03:28] <ogra> ah, ok
[03:29] <Kamion> so it depends which surak means (possibly both)
[03:30] <Kamion> Obviously, you'll need to be aware that this will be targetted at i386, amd64, and powerpc at least; for the moment I'd be happy with a working prototype on i386, as long as i386-specific things are reasonably neatly separated.
[03:30] <surak> How's parted working on ppc?
[03:31] <Kamion> Works fine. Can't do LVM/RAID yet (work in progress), but apart from that no problems.
[03:31] <ogra> and as i said, it would be nice to just attach the GUI to dbus and get all data via the bus...
[03:31] <Kamion> The partition table layout's rather different, though.
[03:31] <Kamion> especially as far as booting the damn things goes
[03:31] <ogra> ...so this would require some dbus love in the backend, but gives the opportunity to excahange the frontend easily
[03:32] <surak> Are there requirements about the gui?
[03:32] <ogra> make it easy 
[03:32] <ogra> ...my MOM needs to be able to install with it
[03:32] <Kamion> written in python, will need facility to have either gtk or qt (but concentrating on gtk at first)
[03:32] <ogra> i'd like to do a certain design...
[03:33] <Kamion> we won't necessarily make ogra do the qt frontend, just design with other frontends in mind :-)
[03:33] <Kamion> as far as possible, it should ask all questions at the start of the process
[03:33] <ogra> Kamion, i'll be able to abuse Riddell for that i guess ;)
[03:34] <ogra> www.grawert.net/express_mockup.png
[03:34] <ogra> its far from being anything...
[03:34] <Kamion> heh, yeah
[03:34] <surak> definetly
[03:34] <ogra> but in first place i want to have a icon for each step in the left pane
[03:34] <ogra> with a heading ....
[03:35] <Kamion> surak: ok, can we set up a call for let's say next Tuesday, to find out how things are going?
[03:35] <kiko> whoa
[03:35] <ogra> steps that arent run yet should be greyed out
[03:35] <kiko> what about using gparted?
[03:35] <kiko> isn't that what we discussed with mdz at udu?
[03:35] <ogra> steps that are running should have a little animation
[03:35] <Kamion> kiko: the spec links to GraphicalPartitioningTool, which discusses that
[03:35] <ogra> kiko, yep
[03:35] <kiko> ah, this is for the installer. sorry.
[03:36] <kiko> I thought this was for the partitioning tool
[03:36] <Kamion> but for default (automatic) partitioning we'd rather not drop into a full-blown partitioner at all
[03:36] <ogra> the dumbed down gparted shall be integrated in the app for the partitioning step
[03:36] <kiko> yes, of course.
 as far as possible, it should ask all questions at the start of the process
[03:36] <ogra> yep
[03:36] <kiko> note this, very important sabdfl requirement
[03:36] <surak> Will something be asked AFTER the live-cd is installed?
[03:36] <ogra> thats kickstart ;)
[03:37] <ogra> surak, we should make sure that its not necessary
[03:37] <surak> like fedora's firstboot or winxp account creation?
[03:37] <ogra> we can do that before
[03:37] <Kamion> surak: there's discussion of that in the spec, under OEMInstaller ...
[03:37] <Kamion> "Base system configuration"
[03:38] <Kamion> code will be pretty similar, but I suspect we'll want to ask it beforehand
[03:38] <Kamion> before reboot, I mean
[03:38] <surak> ok
[03:38] <Kamion> ogra: kickstart's a fully automatic thing - definitely not about asking questions :-)
[03:39] <ogra> Kamion, but you only answer your questions at one point, never afterwards ;)
[03:39] <surak> I don't know what's the current kickstart status - but I'm assuming we (brazil team) should not worry about it.
[03:39] <ogra> s/answer your questions/make your setup/
[03:40] <ogra> surak, kickstart is supported by ubuntu :)
[03:40] <Kamion> surak: nope - kickstart is a translation layer over the top of debconf preseeding. You do need to worry about not breaking debconf preseeding in regular installs.
[03:40] <Kamion> but you'll find out about that as time goes on - no need to worry about it for a prototype.
[03:40] <surak> ok
[03:41] <surak> ok. I have to look at the installation code. Is glade allowed?
[03:41] <Kamion> I'll assume there's no objection to a call next Tuesday (24th). Are you guys on IRC regularly?
[03:41] <ogra> surak, why not
[03:41] <Kamion> surak: in the frontend, yes; not in installer code.
[03:42] <Kamion> that's why there's a separation
[03:42] <kiko> surak, <Kamion> I'll assume there's no objection to a call next Tuesday (24th). Are you guys on IRC regularly?
[03:42] <Kamion> installer backend code is shell and C only
[03:42] <surak> I don't use to, but that's ok
[03:42] <kiko> IRC is da place to be
[03:42] <ogra> yeah
[03:42] <Kamion> surak: just for a means of contact. e-mail's cool too, but higher-latency
[03:43] <kiko> and INBOXes are unmanageable ;)
[03:44] <ogra> kiko, change your client.... reading mails with telnet via pop3 is outdated ;)
[03:44] <surak> yeah, and pine changed their license some years ago :-)
[03:45] <kiko> pop3 is hot cakes
[03:45] <ogra> heh
[03:45] <kiko> I use less /var/spool/mail/kiko
[03:45] <surak> Is there a ubuntuexpress-list?
[03:45] <kiko> good point
[03:45] <kiko> Kamion, does it warrant a real list, or ubuntu-devel?
[03:45] <Kamion> surak: ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com ;-)
[03:45] <Kamion> kiko: not yet, imho
[03:45] <kiko> k
[03:45] <ogra> kiko, for 6 ppl ?
[03:46] <kiko> yeah yeah
[03:46] <kiko> ogra, stop chiding me or I'll complain about my bugday mail from you and dholbach!
[03:46] <surak> :-)
[03:46] <kiko> aha, now you hide, human!
[03:47] <kiko> @#!@# trailing slash requirement
[03:47] <surak> Kamion, I thing you are about gmt+2, is that it?
[03:47] <surak> think
[03:47] <Kamion> surak: London time, so GMT+1
[03:47] <kiko> surak, I think england is currently gmt+1 
[03:48] <kiko> daylight savings (sneer. as if london had daylight.)
[03:48] <Kamion> ha
[03:48] <surak> oh sorry, I though Kamion was at swiss
[03:48] <kiko> btcentralplus == british telefoo
[03:48] <ogra> lets just use UTC...for the guys  in the london darkness
[03:49] <surak> okay, so may 24th, about 13:00 utc
[03:50] <Kamion> works for me
[03:51] <Kamion> that probably won't be the regular time, because mdz is in UTC-0700 and unlikely to be awake
[03:51] <Kamion> so if he wants to do the call it'll have to move later; but for next week 1300 UTC is fine
[03:52] <surak> ok
[03:52] <Kamion> In the meantime, of course, feel free to contact me or ogra if you have any questions.
[03:52] <ogra> yep
[03:53] <surak> sure. I'm living at #ubuntu-devel from now on
[03:53] <ogra> ... <hostmaster@grawert.net>
[03:53] <kiko> yes, ogra knows everything, including about gay bars in sydney.
[03:53] <ogra> lol
[03:53] <surak> kiko, how do you know that?
[03:53] <ogra> kiko, not more then you though :)
[03:53] <kiko> surak, I was there :)
[03:54] <surak> So it seems that you became a coinasseur of those places also :-)
[03:55] <kiko> I only dab in them, ogra's the expert.
[03:55] <ogra> lol
[03:56] <surak> Ok. Let me start to look at the code and cry out in pain. I'll be here, just in case.
[03:56] <kiko> you da man surak 
[03:57] <ogra> ok, i'll do smoe more work on the mockup and want to hear some critics next meeting ;)
[03:57] <kiko> I want to hear some bugday-love-mail
[03:57] <ogra> kiko, you'll get it...
[03:59] <surak> kiko, if I ain't, I'm screwed from now on ;-)
[03:59] <kiko> seize the moment!
[04:44] <kiko> surak, Kamion: are we agreed upon a goal for next week and a way to manage ourselves into it?
[04:44] <kiko> if so, this meeting is, as huggy bear would say, adjourned.
[04:45] <Kamion> I believe the prototype I mentioned above is the goal for next week.
[04:45] <Kamion> surak?
 The first thing we need is a working prototype. Don't worry about how it looks for now; just put together something that asks for the partition on which to put /, then copies the live CD's / onto it, installs a boot loader, and reboots
[04:47] <kiko> okay
[04:47] <Kamion> About the only further requirement there is that it should use existing code wherever possible.
[04:47] <Kamion> But that'll be faster anyway :-)
[04:47] <kiko> granted
[04:48] <surak> ok
[04:49] <Kamion> thanks
[04:50] <kiko> ADJOURNED
[07:55] <sladen> Kamion: gah, missed the meeting earlier.  I wrote a python tool for zero'ing unused blocks on an ext2/3 image so partimage can be dropped
[08:36] <Kamion> sladen: uh ... which meeting did you miss?
[08:36] <Kamion> sladen: cool, pass that to lamont
[09:08] <pitti> Kamion, astharot: I can't attend today's meeting, I have a little fever and want to go to bed now
[09:09] <pitti> Kamion: I'd like to propose astharot to become a MOTU
[09:13] <tseng|work> get well, pitti
[09:28] <zul> hey
[09:35] <lamont> sladen: coolness
[09:36] <Kamion> 20:08 < pitti> Kamion, astharot: I can't attend today's meeting, I have a little fever and want to go to bed now
[09:36] <Kamion> 20:09 < pitti> Kamion: I'd like to propose astharot to become a MOTU
[09:36] <Kamion> Keybuk: ^-- for the agenda
[09:37] <Keybuk> ok, though I don't think we're going to be anywhere near Quorate, so that kind of stuff will probably get deferred
[09:42] <dholbach> hey
[09:44] <Kamion> Keybuk: oh, sabdfl isn't going to make it either?
[09:44] <Keybuk> we'll see :)
[09:44] <Kamion> Keybuk: sadly I don't think my temporarily delegated powers from mdz include TB membership :-)
[09:45] <Kamion> though he did ask me to show up
[09:45] <Keybuk> heh, aren't you a CC member?
[09:45] <Kamion> yes
[09:45] <Keybuk> which would give you more powers than god :p
[09:45] <Keybuk> and lovely as you are, there's an evil glint in your eye sometimes that worries me <g>
[09:45] <ogra> heh
[09:46] <Kamion> mwahahaha, etc.
[09:46] <mjg59> Oh, heavens, am I supposed to be here?
[09:47] <ogra> mjg59, where else ?
[09:47] <mjg59> Tidying the kitchen
[09:48] <diamond> technical board meeing in 12 minutes, correct?
[09:49] <MartinSchmeisser> looks like
[09:49] <Keybuk> hope so
[09:49] <diamond> ok. never sure about the time difference
[09:52] <JaneW> runs
[09:52] <Kamion> hi Jane
[09:53] <mvo> hmmmm .... tea
[09:54] <thom> that's a stunning idea
[09:54] <zul> diamond: date --utc
[09:54] <zul> hey jeff
[09:54] <diamond> zul: aye. done that twice today. just get twitchy about turning up late for these -)
[09:57] <Amaranth> yay, i finally made it to a meeting
[09:57] <JaneW> msg from doko: today, I am unable to attend the meeting, in fact I have problems to attend the meeting on Tuesdays until the end of June (from 16:30 UTC to 21:30 UTC) on a regular basis. In the past we did speak about having other time lines for the meeting, or at least changing time lines. Could this be a topic for today's meeting or can we change meeting times for the TBM from week to week?
[09:58] <JaneW> hi maion
[09:58] <JaneW> oops hi Kamion ;)
[09:59] <Keybuk> that's an impressive typo
[09:59] <Kamion> JaneW: since only one of the TB members appears to be here this week, I think this week might be a bad time to discuss changing the schedule
[09:59] <JaneW> Keybuk: I am slow on the uptake with that one, but I am getting there
[09:59] <JaneW> Kamion: ok, understood
[10:00] <jbailey> Kamion: It's been discussed a number of times, hasn't it?  Doesn't it just need to be implemented? =)
[10:00] <Keybuk> silbs and cvd tend to be online if they're within bread-roll distance of sabdfl
[10:00] <Keybuk> and they're not
[10:00] <JaneW> doko: had some other requests, shouls I mail them, or spool here?
[10:00] <Kamion> jbailey: that was for the CC I suspect
[10:00] <Keybuk> jbailey: it was discussed and implemented for CC, but not TB
[10:00] <Kamion> which tends to attract more non-member participation
[10:00] <Kamion> well, s/attract/require/
[10:00] <JaneW> cvd is out for dinner tonight, nowhere near sabdfl
[10:01] <Keybuk> anyway
[10:01] <Keybuk> 2000UTC
[10:01] <JaneW> how do I turn loggin on in xchat?
[10:01] <Keybuk> good evening everyone
[10:01] <Amaranth> JaneW: Settings->Preferences, choose logging
[10:01] <Keybuk> mdz is spending the week dead for tax purposes, so I'm driving tonight
[10:01] <smurfix> JaneW: Preferences => Logging
[10:01] <lamont> JaneW: settings -> preferenences->logging
[10:02] <Keybuk> but as we haven't had one of these in a little while, it seemed worth doing despite the fact there's just me
[10:02] <jbailey> Keybuk: Ah scott, there's no such thing as "just you" =)
[10:02] <JaneW> lamont/smurfix:  thanks
[10:03] <Keybuk> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[10:03] <Kamion> the agenda seems to be mostly a holdover from the last time
[10:04] <dholbach> Kamion: i'm no holdover, but from what i heard you're in no state to decide tonight, right?
[10:04] <astharot> my name is wrong
[10:04] <Amaranth> before we start, does anything think it'd be bad to put a notice in the #ubuntu topic about not upgrading breezy for awhile?
[10:04] <Amaranth> err, anyone
[10:04] <astharot> GeradoDiGiacomo -> Gerardo :)
[10:04] <Keybuk> as neither mdz or sabdfl are here, I think we'll have to postpone both dholback-for-main and astharot-for-motu until the next meeting
[10:04] <Kamion> dholbach: you're also already an uploader to main
[10:04] <ogra> is he ?
[10:04] <dholbach> Kamion: i am?
[10:04] <Kamion> at least assuming dh@mailempfang.de is you?
[10:05] <dholbach> yes
[10:05] <dholbach> ah no... seb128 uploaded for me
[10:05] <Kamion> oh, no, I'm looking at the wrong file. Never mind.
[10:05] <dholbach> it's ok for me to bug seb all the time ;-)
[10:05] <amu> :)
[10:06] <elmo> Kamion: it's the keyring that matters
[10:06] <Kamion> elmo: yeah, I worked that out
[10:06] <Keybuk> elmo: is dholbach in the keyring? :p
[10:06] <Kamion> no
[10:06] <elmo> Keybuk: in the upload-to-main one? no
[10:06] <elmo> but, FWIW, I think he should be
[10:06] <ogra> yeah
[10:07] <Keybuk> yeah, I have no problem either, but without at least mdz or sabdfl, we can't act on that today
[10:07] <seb128> dholbach: they don't like you :/
[10:07] <seb128> ;)
[10:07] <Keybuk> Are there any seed change proposals?  That shouldn't be postponed anymore
[10:08] <Kamion> I'd suggest an out-of-sequence meeting to take care of the MaintainerCandidates backlog, at some point
[10:08] <ogra> mono
[10:08] <dholbach> Kamion: i already moved some of the guys that repeatedly didnt show up at the cc meetings
[10:09] <dholbach> to "needs to show up again" .-)
[10:09] <Keybuk> was mono not discussed at UDU?
[10:09] <Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage/searchwiki?source=search&expr=SeedProposals&submit=Search
[10:09] <tseng|work> it was approved at udu, yes
[10:09] <tseng|work> pitti approved today
[10:09] <Kamion> unfortunately we haven't denoted those already done for hoary, which confuses matters
[10:10] <ogra> Keybuk, yep
[10:10] <Kamion> FWIW, there will probably not be a seed freeze for Breezy
[10:10] <Keybuk> ok, so that can have TB blessing if required
[10:10] <tseng|work> it will be harder to move mono right now if I cant be approved to upload it until next TB
[10:10] <ogra> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/Mono
[10:10] <Kamion> because it didn't really happen properly for Warty or Hoary, and we don't seem to have suffered unduly as a result
[10:12] <Keybuk> Kamion: yeah, and doesn't seem to take into account Base vs Standard now ?
[10:12] <Kamion> there've been no proposals for Standard, because not enough people have realised it exists yet
[10:12] <Kamion> basically those proposals haven't been maintained since Mataro or so
[10:13] <Keybuk> indeed, do you want to clean those pages up?  good!  well volunteered! :)
[10:13] <Kamion> so it's probably worth discussing those seed changes that arose from UDU specs, but beyond that worry about them when people bug us
[10:14] <Keybuk> ok, are the right people here?
[10:14] <Kamion> well, anyone who has a spec that requires new packages in main, speak up. :-)
[10:14] <ogra> mono for main would also involve tseng upload rights to main, so we'll have to defer that i guess
[10:14] <Kamion> I'm guessing desktop folk have a bunch
[10:14] <elmo> does someone want to volunteer to clean up those proposals?
[10:15] <elmo> a lot of them are obsolete already
[10:15] <mjg59> Kamion: LaptopMission is likely to, but I don't have a good idea what yet
[10:15] <Kamion> elmo: I'll go through and at least remove the ones we've done after this meeting
[10:15] <thom> NetworkManager and PowerManagementConfiguration certainly will
[10:15] <ogra> Kamion, gnome-power-manager will be a new one
[10:15] <Keybuk> thom: do you know what?
[10:15] <thom> uh, NetworkMagic. PDASupport may well do, BluetoothSupport will do 
[10:16] <thom> Keybuk: only for NM
[10:16] <ogra> GraphicalConfigTools too
[10:16] <jbailey> Kamion: EarlyUserspace will
[10:16] <thom> Keybuk: i rather suspect udevraces will, too
[10:16] <thom> fasterboot will
[10:16] <Keybuk> tseng|work: can you add yourself to the appropriate agendas for main upload if you wish?
[10:17] <ogra> Ubuntuexpress will :)
[10:17] <tseng|work> Keybuk: ok. for some reason i thought ogra did it for today
[10:17] <jbailey> Kamion: I can't promise that FormalTestPlans won't.  buntu is also in the "who knows?" category.
[10:17] <Kamion> ok, I'm not sure "will" is necessary for this meeting; concrete packages that are already ready to go in would be good to sort out, though
[10:17] <Keybuk> thom: ok, so NetworkMagic; what packages need promoting?
[10:17] <Kamion> ?
[10:18] <thom> Keybuk: networkmanager, networkmanager-gnome, dhcdbd; none of which are uploaded yet so ignore me :P
[10:18] <jbailey> klibc is in and could use promoting.
[10:19] <Keybuk> klibc?
[10:19] <lamont> Keybuk: that's the kde version of gnome's libc. :-)
[10:19] <amu> ehe
[10:19] <Keybuk> lamont: that's what I was worrying :p
[10:20] <Keybuk> klibc sounds more like something that should be pulled into main by things that depend on it ...
[10:20] <Keybuk> (we don't seed glibc)
[10:20] <ajmitch> klibc is only used in the initramfs, right?
[10:20] <jbailey> Keybuk: Yes, that would work.
[10:20] <jbailey> ajmitch: Right.
[10:21] <Kamion> we do seed initrd-tools; we could pre-approve initramfs-tools
[10:21] <Keybuk> is it even written yet? :)
[10:21] <jbailey> Yes, hjas been since January.
[10:22] <jbailey> It needs to be more fully developped, so it hasn't gone in, though.
[10:22] <Keybuk> ok, we'll defer that until the next one I think
[10:22] <jbailey> I could upload the bit that will boot off a harddrive or do nfsroot anytime, though.
[10:23] <Keybuk> any other packages ?
[10:24] <Keybuk> ok, carrying on ...
[10:24] <Keybuk> any other business?
[10:25] <Amaranth> short meeting :)
[10:25] <ajmitch> no quorum
[10:25] <Keybuk> Amaranth: it's about this point that someone mentions something controversial, and we all settle in for the night
[10:26] <JaneW> ... well we could updates on the breezy goals?
[10:26] <seb128> again? :)
[10:26] <thom> JaneW: they've only been going a week!
[10:26] <Keybuk> sure, Jane, you can lead this bit :p
[10:26] <Kamion> (ok, I've cleaned up the seed proposals a bit now)
[10:27] <Amaranth> Oh, that reminds me. The MenuEditor goal seems to be covered by Smeg.
[10:27] <JaneW> thom/seb128 yes I know
[10:27] <JaneW> and thanks everyone for updating the statuses, I am very impressed
[10:27] <dholbach> ExpandingUniverse will hopefully never stop :-)
[10:27] <JaneW> Amaranth: eeeuw!
[10:27] <seb128> Amaranth: I'm packaging gnome-menus 2.11.2 atm which has a menueditor
[10:27] <jbailey> JaneW: Updating the colours sucks.  Is there anyway to have that be automatic? =)
[10:27] <seb128> no need for an another one for the moment
[10:27] <seb128> the GNOME official one should be fine :)
[10:27] <JaneW> jbailey: not sure, but if you type in the word I will augtomatically do the colour bit
[10:28] <JaneW> does that help?
[10:28] <ajmitch> Amaranth: you did a good job with the one you wrote :)
[10:28] <Amaranth> JaneW: Smeg == Simple Menu Editor for GNOME == http://www.realistanew.com/projects/smeg/ :)
[10:28] <Amaranth> JaneW: I know it's a bad word too, that's kinda the point. ;)
[10:28] <JaneW> Amaranth: oh, well that changes things ;)
[10:28] <Amaranth> seb128: Ah, I thought that was just a PoC.
[10:28] <seb128> no
[10:28] <Kamion> JaneW: MountingHDDFilesystems seems to have been left out of the table
[10:28] <jbailey> JaneW: It's not that much work for me to change it at the same time, and a silly amount of work for you to track it, so that doesn't make sense.
[10:28] <seb128> that's an "simple" editor ... like GNOME is a "simple" desktop
[10:29] <JaneW> Kamion: should I add it? .. and what priority
[10:29] <Amaranth> seb128: From the sound of it the one in gnome-menus is going to be simple feature-wise so there is still a niche for doing more advanced things
[10:29] <Kamion> JaneW: it's on the UDU wiki, marked as high priority there
[10:29] <JaneW> ok, I'll put it in high then
[10:29] <Kamion> thanks
[10:29] <seb128> Amaranth: right, but we probably want to play with the GNOME one before discussing other options
[10:30] <seb128> universe has plenty of place for others ones :)
[10:30] <dholbach> seb128: hahaaa :-)
[10:30] <Amaranth> hehe
[10:30] <Amaranth> universe has room for one, mine ;)
[10:31] <tseng|work> oops.
[10:31] <dholbach> seb! :-)
[10:31] <Keybuk> JaneW: all done?
[10:31] <Kamion> Does the TB need to sign off on the complete list of goals there, or just the major feature goals?
[10:31] <JaneW> Kamion: will you be the lead?
[10:31] <Kamion> JaneW: yes
[10:32] <Keybuk> I don't think the TB needs to sign off on anything ... we resolve disputes
[10:32] <Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/techboard/ suggests otherwise :)
[10:32] <Kamion> "Ubuntu Release Feature Goals"
[10:32] <Amaranth> btw, should i put a notice in the #ubuntu topic about holding off on upgrading breezy for awhile?
[10:32] <Keybuk> oh, yeah, I guess that kinda counts
[10:32] <Kamion> Amaranth: go ahead
[10:33] <ajmitch> Amaranth: isn't there a note there about "Don't use breezy" ?
[10:33] <JaneW> Kamion: is it in drafting or pending?
[10:33] <Amaranth> ajmitch: nope
[10:33] <Kamion> please let's have general development discussion on #ubuntu-devel rather than here
[10:33] <Amaranth> ajmitch: oh, there it is
[10:34] <JaneW> ajmitch: you said something like I almost want to volunteer - which is the closest I got to getting a volunteer :P
[10:34] <Kamion> so the top priority items on the BreezyGoals list look analogous to what we used to call Feature Goals
[10:34] <ajmitch> JaneW: alright :)
[10:34] <JaneW> guys we also need to get Milestones for the TOP priority items
[10:35] <jbailey> JaneW: Should milestones generally be listed in the spec pages, or do you want them under BreezyGoals somewhere?
[10:35] <JaneW> since they are the most crucial we need to be able to track progress and various checkpoints along the way, to make sure they are progressing smothly and on schedule.
[10:35] <JaneW> jbailey: for high, med and low in the sepc pages only, for TOP mdz wants them browkn down the the table, so he can see at a glance how we are doing
[10:36] <dholbach> today i don't like 1) firefox and 2) nautilus *GRRR*
[10:37] <Keybuk> JaneW: so, do you want to go down the list one-by-one?
[10:37] <JaneW> well firstly does anyone here have contact with the Edubuntu guys?
[10:38] <JaneW> I have heard nothing from them, and they haven't responded to e-mails yet either.
[10:38] <dholbach> jeff elkner is busy on the mailing lists, isnt he?
[10:38] <JaneW> there's no going-in status update from them (or mako) yet.
[10:39] <ogra> dholbach, which one -users ? 
[10:39] <dholbach> ogra: i thought i read some mail of his today
[10:39] <dholbach> ogra: yes
[10:39] <JaneW> dholbach: shrug, I can't seem to get hold of him
[10:39] <Keybuk> LaptopMission, mjg59, thom?
[10:40] <thom> Keybuk: basically, laptopmission is "get lots of laptops, test them". not sure how we milestone that
[10:40] <Keybuk> can there be a "Keybuk's laptop works" milestone? ;)
[10:40] <Kamion> Edubuntu> it seems to me that "get ThinClientIntegration done early" is the most important milestone
[10:41] <JaneW> thom: hrm, can you put a few lines of progress and intended nex steps are, so mdz can understand without having to contact you? Please.
[10:41] <thom> JaneW: ok, i'll talk to matthew tomorrow and do something
[10:41] <JaneW> thom: thanks
[10:41] <Keybuk> OEMInstaller, kamion? Mithrandir?
[10:42] <Kamion> I think the milestones there are roughly:
[10:42] <Kamion>   * get prototype firstboot up and running
[10:42] <Kamion>   * prototype OEM test mode
[10:42] <JaneW> in fact that applies to all. Anyone, but esp ppl like ndz and sabdfl should get a good idea of the status and progress of Breezy by checking out this page, so the aim is to update status as it changes and put in a line or 2 in the notes each week so ppl can see what's happening.
[10:42] <Kamion>   * package up neatly
[10:42] <Kamion>   * profit
[10:42] <JaneW> s/ndz/mdz
[10:43] <Kamion> but that's a bit too rough still :)
[10:43] <thom> Kamion: i want a cut of milestone 4
[10:43] <Keybuk> I'm guessing you're still at milestone 0 ? :)
[10:43] <Kamion> let's say prototype of firstboot in three weeks, and we'll see how it looks from there?
[10:43] <Kamion> that's the hardest bit
[10:44] <JaneW> what's James H's IRC nick please?
[10:44] <Kamion> JaneW: jamesh
[10:44] <JaneW> heh
[10:45] <Keybuk> ok
[10:45] <Keybuk> ThinClientIntegration, I'm guessing we need Jim or mdz for that again
[10:45] <Keybuk> so LaunchpadIntegration, seb128?
[10:46] <Kamion> jbailey: can you speak to ThinClientIntegration at all?
[10:46] <seb128> what about it?
[10:46] <Kamion> a lot of it's your stuff
[10:46] <jbailey> Kamion: Not really.  I'm only involved as far as the earlyuserspace and making sure that I handle whatever nfsroot/swap over nbd cases come up./
[10:47] <Keybuk> seb128: update on progress, planned milestones, etc.
[10:47] <Kamion> jbailey: right, but those are early requirements, I think; do you have an idea how long it will take for EarlyUserspace to be usable?
[10:47] <Kamion> and update on progress
[10:47] <seb128> Keybuk: no change this week, need to speak with kiko for the launchpad part
[10:48] <jbailey> Kamion: Basic usability and in the archive is about a week.  I'll post a call for testers shortly on my hacked udev to make sure it works, and then we're ready to go.
[10:48] <JaneW> seb128,: jamesh has been assigned to that
[10:48] <seb128> ok, so I'll speak with him soon
[10:48] <seb128> thanks
[10:48] <jbailey> Kamion: Then kernel package changes.  Hopefully in the same timeframish.
[10:48] <Kamion> jbailey: ok, thanks
[10:49] <Keybuk> JaneW: shall we go down the High Priority too?
[10:50] <JaneW> Keybuk: not necessarily - IF we can get ppl to comit to regular updates...
[10:50] <Kamion> since not everyone's here, it might be better to send out a clear note saying what's expected in terms of progress and milestone updates
[10:50] <JaneW> so what's it going to  be? Talk now or type later?
[10:50] <JaneW> Kamion: nod sure
[10:50] <Keybuk> an e-mail is better, as anything said here most people will miss
[10:51] <JaneW> I am happy to receive e-mail /IRc updates too, and I can do the wiki editing
[10:51] <JaneW> apparently the agenda for the next meeting needs to be set now...
[10:51] <Keybuk> yup
[10:51] <JaneW> when will that be, 2 weeks time?
[10:52] <Kamion> do all the stuff you weren't quorate for this time? :)
[10:52] <Keybuk> 2 weeks time, same time
[10:52] <Kamion> can I repeat the suggestion for an out-of-schedule meeting to take care of some maintainers?
[10:52] <Kamion> would that be manageable?
[10:52] <Keybuk> is there any reason we can't do it at the next meeting?
[10:53] <Kamion> was thinking mostly of urgent ones like people whose acceptance for main blocks packages from being promoted to main
[10:53] <Keybuk> when's mdz back?
[10:54] <Kamion> 23rd, I believe
[10:54] <JaneW> Keybuk: yes on Monday next week
[10:54] <Keybuk> could do it prior to the next CC meeting?
[10:55] <Kamion> which is 24th at 22:00
[10:55] <Kamion> (UTC)
[10:55] <Keybuk> indeed
[10:55] <Kamion> so 20:00?
[10:55] <Keybuk> could do 24th at 20:00 ?
[10:55] <Keybuk> snap
[10:55] <JaneW> gads 22:00! (12am)
[10:56] <diamond> JaneW: beats the pants off 5am which was the last CC meeting for me ,-)
[10:56] <ogra> heh
[10:56] <JaneW> jbailey: awesome!
[10:57] <Keybuk> ok, JaneW can you send a mail to mdz and appropriate mailing lists to announce the extra meeting for 20:00 UTC on the 24th
[10:57] <JaneW> ok np
[10:58] <JaneW> Keybuk: can you put it in the # topic in the mean time?
[10:58] <JaneW> oh thanks
[10:58] <Keybuk> should be
[10:58] <Keybuk> ok, thanks everybody
[10:58] <JaneW> thanks
[10:58] <dholbach> thanks
[10:58] <diamond> tea anyone?
[10:58] <ogra> wow, only 1h
[10:58] <JaneW> yipee
[10:59] <ogra> thats short for TB
[10:59] <ajmitch> that was nice & quick :)
[10:59] <JaneW> more than 5 hours of sleep is possible tonight still
[11:00] <dholbach> Tuesday 31 May 2005 at 2000 UTC   ?
[11:00] <dholbach> that's on TechnicalBoardAgenda
[11:00] <Keybuk> yeah, next TB meeting proper is in two weeks
[11:00] <Kamion> dholbach: that's still the next one in the regular schedule
[11:00] <Keybuk> however there's a special meeting in one week to _just_ catch up with the maintainer backlog
[11:00] <dholbach> ahhhhh ok, i see
[11:00] <ogra> :)
[11:00] <dholbach> sorry, must have missed it
[11:01] <Keybuk> you probably don't want to miss it, as your name's in that list <g>
[11:01] <dholbach> made a note :-)
[11:03] <JaneW> dholbach: and you;ll get an email reminder too ;)
[11:04] <dholbach> JaneW: thank you :-)))
[11:05] <dholbach> GRRRRR FIREFOX
[11:05] <Keybuk> dholbach: blame the maintainer
[11:05] <thom> dholbach: ephy seems somewhat, but not entirely less crashy
[11:05] <ogra> dont browser
[11:05] <thom> i blame gcc
[11:06] <ogra> -r
[11:06] <Keybuk> I blame lame statues in Barcelona
[11:08] <JaneW> oh one thinkgmako is listed as the lead for LanguageSupportPackages 
[11:08] <JaneW> is that appropriate
[11:08] <thom> Keybuk: i blame dpkg, actually
[11:08] <JaneW> and who can be listed as second on that?
[11:08] <Keybuk> thom: which is the author's fault
[11:09] <thom> Keybuk: more precisely, 1.13, which seems to have broken debuild
[11:09] <Kamion> JaneW: probably is, mako has historically been really good at that sort of thing
[11:09] <Keybuk> really? neat
[11:09] <dholbach> thom: epiphany crashes too, nice :-)
[11:09] <JaneW> dholbach: what you trying to do?
[11:09] <dholbach> somebody did a proper, a complete job :-)
[11:10] <seb128> blame firefox :)
[11:10] <thom> bah, housemates cooking. making me very hungry
[11:10] <ogra> gtk ?
[11:10] <dholbach> JaneW: edit the wiki calendar
[11:10] <thom> lets just blame glibc and have done with it
[11:10] <seb128> he tries to play with thom
[11:10] <lamont> thom: gtk
[11:10] <Keybuk> 1.13 does break things that check wether DEB_*_GNU_SYSTEM_TYPE is "linux"
[11:10] <Kamion> iz gtk ... damnit, beaten
[11:10] <Keybuk> uh, DEB_*_GNU_SYSTEM
[11:10] <dholbach> seb128: you'll get the backtrace for epiphany :-)
[11:10] <seb128> dholbach: that's probably firefox crashing
[11:11] <seb128> I'll reassign to thom ;)
[11:11] <dholbach> seb128: i'm sure it is
[11:11] <JaneW> dholbach: firefox was crashing all the time for me, until I uninstalled all plugins
[11:11] <thom> dholbach: yeah, it is. i was trying to work out why dh_strip isn't playing ball and giving me debug packages before the meeting
[11:11] <thom> JaneW: now it crashes all the time with no plugins (in breezy)
[11:11] <JaneW> so now I have no flash or sounds in websites, but at least I can work
[11:12] <dholbach> thom: seb128 could help you with some cdbs magic ;-)
[11:12] <JaneW> thom: hmm ... progress ;-/
[11:12] <thom> dholbach: fortunately firefox isn't afflicted
[11:12] <thom> ;P
[11:12] <thom> JaneW: it's great. really
[11:13] <JaneW> anyway tomorrow all. Night
[11:13] <ogra> night JaneW 
[11:13] <dholbach> good night JaneW 
[11:13] <thom> night jane
[11:13] <mvo> night JaneW 
[11:14] <thom> small thermonuclear device
[11:15] <dholbach> seb128: what did we figure out was the reason i got neverending backtraces?
[11:15] <seb128> dholbach: ?
[11:16] <dholbach> i don't remember either
[11:18] <seb128> what are you talking about?
[11:18] <Kamion> should this be -> #ubuntu-devel?
[11:18] <dholbach> Kamion: yeah