[12:01] <robertj> are there any plans for a step-by-step testing how-to for laptop compatability?
[12:02] <Pupeno> I work with Lisp, so, for me, it is important to have recent versions of sbcl, slime, and lots of other packages related to Lisp. Ubuntu packages are outdated so I'm planning to make new packages whenever is possible. I notice for example, that there are some newer Lisp-related packages on Debian. So, what do you recomend me to do ?
[12:02] <\sh> Pupeno: kde guy right?
[12:03] <Pupeno> \sh: not anymore as I used to.
[12:03] <Pupeno> \sh: KDE is still my prefeered desktop, but I don't do KDE dev anymore.
[12:03] <\sh> Pupeno: but i think we had nice chats when I was coding kmyirc ;) 
[12:04] <Pupeno> \sh: yes... I remember your 'weird' nick (no offense meant).
[12:05] <\sh> so, nice to meet u again :)
=== Pupeno too!
[12:06] <Pupeno> \sh: did you continue doing kmyirc ? how are you doing ?
[12:06] <\sh> Pupeno: well, no..konversation had more devs then kmyirc :)
[12:07] <\sh> Pupeno: now kmyirc is only a source for koders ;) (the new source code search engine) 
[12:07] <Pupeno> It is awesome how you keep encountering people... I used to hang a lot on #kde-devel and then I encounter people from there on #kubuntu, #ubuntu-devel, and the people I know from #lisp appear on #dylan and so on... like a true net.
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[12:09] <robertj> Pupeno: file a bug?
[12:10] <robertj> Pupeno: if its in Debian it should find it's way into Breezy automatically
[12:10] <seb128> what package?
[12:10] <ogra> ???
[12:10] <Pupeno> robertj: I like to file bug reports with some back up (like the package).
[12:10] <Pupeno> robertj: oh... but I'm not using Breezy.
[12:11] <robertj> <bother who='seb128'>Is Places Integration speced out yet on the wiki?</bother>
[12:11] <robertj> Pupeno: check breezy, if it's not there, then file a bug
[12:11] <Pupeno> seb128: sbcl, slime, cl-iterate and some others.
[12:11] <robertj> if it is there, wait for Breezy
[12:11] <seb128> robertj: not, it's supposd?
[12:11] <calc> Kamion: readonly fixed debconf but in a bad way
[12:11] <Pupeno> robertj: that's not an option for me, in that case, I'd start some backports or something like that.
[12:11] <calc> Kamion: it doesn't fall back to the underlying system config.dat in that case and just throws away the choices
[12:11] <seb128> pool/universe/s/sbcl/sbcl_0.8.17.4-1_i386.deb
[12:12] <Pupeno> seb128: that's too old.
[12:12] <Pupeno> sbcl 0.9.0 was released, and even in the 0.8 series, 0.8.21 was the latest.
[12:12] <calc> Kamion: also the documentation on how to use it is faulty. It says to use DEBCONF_DB_OVERRIDE='File{Filename:/foo Readonly:true}' but Filename and Readonly are invalid, filename doesn't exist at all as a keyword apparently and readonly has to be lowercase
[12:13] <robertj> seb128: kinda lost me on that last one though
[12:13] <seb128> Pupeno: you should become a MOTU and help to maintain the packages
[12:14] <seb128> Pupeno: breezy has 1:0.9.0.19-1
[12:14] <Pupeno> seb128: I'll do it if necesary... but before puting a label "MOTU" on my chest, I'd like to produce some packages.
[12:15] <robertj> what do you use LISP for?
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[12:33] <g14> robertj: Artificial intelligence. Mostly robotics programming
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[12:39] <robertj> gl4: ahh, academic, industrial, or *other* ;)
[12:44] <g14> robertj: Well my best friend used lisp olmost exclusively for his BA in Artificial Intelligence. Not sure about industrial usage though
[12:44] <robertj> ohh
[12:44] <robertj> why bother with a BA in AI?
[12:46] <g14> I asked him the same question :)
[12:46] <robertj> All the real good stuff requires too much math to cram into a 4 year degree
[12:46] <g14> Hes going for a masters, but is taking a break
[12:47] <KaiL_> Not sure about industrial usage though << in industry the arguments to select a tool are "the salesman said, it's good" and "evenybody uses it" - so why should they use lisp? ;)
[12:47] <robertj> I enjoyed my ARTI class, I whipped up on the grad-students
[12:47] <robertj> KaIL: because LISP was used when the first robotic arm was brought in 20 years ago?
[12:48] <KaiL_> ok, that could be an argument 
[12:49] <KaiL_> ..until some salesman with some useless MS-Tool comes around the corner...
[12:49] <surak> who brings the /dev/shm/network to /dev? it's not udev...
[12:49] <robertj> there upper-level maths were no match for waypoints and brute force ;)
[12:53] <robertj> also cheating!
[12:54] <robertj> bump a tree...get an apple...get enough apples, monsters cant move adjacent to you ;)
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[02:18] <jdub> o/~ don't look down, no, no - go, go, underground! o/~
[02:21] <jdub> tseng: ping
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[03:04] <jnc> mmm... i wish libgtkspell0 would get updated and stuff
=== jnc :)
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[03:35] <tseng> jdub: hi
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[04:21] <lamont> ../../libparted/linux.c:1416: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned
[04:21] <lamont> ew
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[04:29] <lamont> daniels: you around?
[04:30] <daniels> of course not
[04:32] <lamont> heh.
[04:32] <daniels> 'sup?
[04:32] <lamont> /usr/include/X11/xpm.h isn't there... is that a build-dep, or missing component in the #include?
[04:32] <lamont> gcc -I. -I.. -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/freetype2/freetype -I/usr/include/X11 -g
[04:32] <lamont> +-Wall -O2 -D_REENTRANT -pipe -DHAVE_LIBPNG -DHAVE_LIBFREETYPE -DHAVE_LIBJPEG -fPIC -DHAVE_XPM
[04:32] <lamont> +-c -o gdxpm.o ../gdxpm.c
[04:32] <lamont> ../gdxpm.c:22:17: error: xpm.h: No such file or directory
[04:33] <daniels> -I/usr/X11R6/include
[04:33] <daniels> actually, would need to be -I/usr/X11R6/include/X11 in this case
[04:33] <jnc> erg...  if 'dmesg' disappears.   what package is supposed to provide that again?
[04:33] <daniels> dpkg -S dmesg, should tell you
[04:33] <lamont> jnc: util-linux
[04:33] <jnc> i thought it was util-linux
[04:33] <jnc> oh well
[04:33] <jnc> i guess it's acting up again in breezy :)
[04:34] <jnc> daniels: thanks
=== lamont grumbles that hppa is the one finding all the x0rg b1rkage
[04:42] <daniels> lamont: hey, it's not xorg breakage, it's application stupidity :)
[04:42] <daniels> lamont: in any case, it really really should be <X11/xpm.h>
[04:44] <jbailey> lamont: pong.
[04:45] <lamont> daniels: yeah, well x0rg broke it.
[04:45] <lamont> it used to work just fine... :-(
[04:45] <lamont> jbailey: nfc what I wanted earlier
[04:45] <daniels> lamont: xorg exposed previous breakage that used to work through luck
[04:45] <daniels> when was that app written, anyway?  1991?
[04:45] <jbailey> lamont: *lol*
[04:45] <lamont> yeah, same thing.
[04:46] <jbailey> lamont: glibc?  arts?
[04:46] <jbailey> lamont: I'm trying to go through the scrollback and catch up.
[04:46] <daniels> /usr/include/X11 is old-school
[04:46] <lamont> jbailey: dunno
[04:46] <daniels> common usage of that predates r6
[04:46] <lamont> daniels: so is a lot of code... :-)
[04:46] <daniels> yeah, r6 was released 11 years and 5 days ago
[04:46] <lamont> heh
[04:46] <lamont> could be about time to fix them, eh?
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[04:47] <lamont> and the fixed code will work either way, yes? (with or without symlinks)
[04:47] <daniels> lamont: indeed
[04:47] <daniels> lamont: if you fix it to <X11/xpm.h> and add -I/usr/X11R6/include, that's the best way
[04:47] <daniels> since that will also pick up when I move xpm.h to /usr/include/X11
=== lamont is just trying to get bugs filed for stuff..
[04:49] <lamont> I figure I'll bounce it against mdz on monday, and then file all the hppa ftbfs packages as bugs...
[04:49] <lamont> they're almost all really broken in the archive.
[04:49] <lamont> alternatively, we could fire up breezy-test
[04:50] <lamont> daniels: how soon you going to be done monkeying with include paths?
[04:50] <lamont> because we may as well wait until then to run breezy-test
[04:53] <daniels> lamont: probably another week, at this rate
[04:53] <lamont> ok.
[04:57] <jnc> /bin/bash: line 0: cd: build-tree/libfwbuilder-2.0.7: No such file or directory
[04:57] <jnc> :(
[04:58] <jnc> i'm new at making packages
[04:58] <jnc> it's quite a bit more confusing than the gentoo stuffs i am used to
[05:10] <lamont> jnc: debian/rules is just a makefile
[05:12] <jnc> i think what i'm missing is how to make this automated and easy to do without thinking much
[05:12] <jnc> i seem to be spending a lot of time when new versions of my favorite fw ruleset software comes out, tweaking so the new packages build
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[05:20] <ghpolo> is there an upcoming fix for util-linux package ?
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[05:20] <ghpolo> @ breezy
[05:21] <Burgundavia> ghpolo, there is already a bug filed about it, so it will be fixed. Please be patient and don't come and bug the developers about it
[05:21] <ghpolo> im patient
[05:21] <ghpolo> ^^
[05:24] <jnc> ghpolo: random stuff missing for you too, eh?
[05:24] <ghpolo> yes, since yesterday i believe
[05:24] <ghpolo> i posted once at mailisting aswell
[05:24] <ghpolo> just checking how many people got it ^^
[05:25] <ghpolo> dmesg, getty etc
[05:25] <jnc> does that mean i should not reboot? ;o)
[05:25] <ghpolo> i didnt ^^
[05:25] <jnc> would suck if i could not log in haha
[05:26] <ghpolo> or you could compile util-linux to get these tools again
[05:26] <jnc> i'm preoccupied making fwbuilder packages
[05:26] <jnc> i can live without computer upstairs
[05:26] <ghpolo> heh
[05:27] <jnc> if my phone service (VoIP controlled by fwbuilder rulesets on a wrt54gs) goes out... bad things happen to my paycheck
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[05:30] <lamont> evening doko
[05:30] <lamont> or is that just you bouncing?
[05:31] <crimsun> the latter, I think
[05:31] <lamont> I rather expect so - it's kinda past his bedtime otherwise
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[05:40] <ghpolo> hmm
[05:40] <ghpolo> someone know a way to fix a really messed terminal ?
[05:40] <ghpolo> (reset doesnt fix it)
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[07:33] <jdub> tseng: filed a bug on muine in malone :)
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[07:53] <g14> Why doesn't ubuntu use the suse cdrecord packages that have dvd+rw support built in? suse had to fork the code to do it
[07:53] <g14> I just got a great error telling me to buy cdrecord-PRODVD from gnomebaker and wasn't very pleased
[07:54] <fabbione> g14: man growfs
[07:54] <bob2> did you install dvdrecord?
[07:54] <fabbione> that's all you need :)
[07:54] <fabbione> bob2: no no.. that's insane crap :)
[07:54] <bob2> hah
[07:54] <fabbione> just use growisofs
[07:54] <fabbione> or something like that
=== fabbione checks
[07:54] <fabbione> yeah growisofs
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=== g14 still thinks the suse fork of cdrecord with bundled dvd+-RW support should be in ubuntu vs the upstream version
[07:56] <g14> Free software shouldn't ask you to upgrade to the pro version for more features
[07:57] <daniels> g14: could you please file a bug instead of repeating it on irc?
[07:57] <fabbione> or use growisofs
[07:57] <g14> I'll do both for now
[07:58] <g14> fabbione: Thanks for the help
[07:58] <fabbione> np
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[10:50] <pitti> Hi
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[10:57] <Hussam> I just wanted to point out that breezy's util-linux is missing /sbin/hwclock
[10:57] <Amaranth> known, bug report filed
[10:57] <bob2> please file a bug if no one else has
[10:58] <Amaranth> util-linux is also missing dmesg and getty, i wouldn't restart if i were you
[10:58] <bob2> hah
[10:58] <Amaranth> ack, he left
[10:58] <bob2> hm, where are the 2.6.12 test kernels?
[10:58] <Amaranth> in universe
[10:58] <bob2> ah
[10:58] <bob2> ta
[10:59] <Amaranth> you can't build modules for them
[10:59] <bob2> oh, I know
[10:59] <Amaranth> the 2.6.12 kernels are compiled with gcc 3.4 and ubuntu only provides 3.3 and 4.0
[10:59] <bob2> I'm building a new install iso to see if 2.6.12 works with my sata controller
[10:59] <bob2> I do know what a kernel abi is :-)
[11:01] <cartman> fuck dmesg is gone lol
[11:01] <Amaranth> yes
[11:01] <cartman> Amaranth: thanks for info :)
[11:01] <Amaranth> don't restart
[11:01] <cartman> I am dead by next electric shortage
[11:01] <cartman> *g*
[11:01] <Amaranth> cartman: this is for smeg :)
[11:02] <cartman> I love bleeding edge software :)
[11:02] <Amaranth> oh, wrong channel
[11:02] <Amaranth> nevermind about smeg
[11:02] <Treenaks> I love greasemonkey.. it makes on-line banking so much nicer :)
[11:02] <cartman> Treenaks: how come?
[11:03] <Treenaks> cartman: I have a script that fixes broken popup stuff ("javascript:" links) and one that removes all target="_blank" attributes
[11:03] <cartman> ha nice :)
[11:03] <Treenaks> cartman: so it doesn't open new windows unless I ask it anymore..
[11:05] <Simira> morning Treenaks!
[11:05] <Treenaks> hi Simira 
[11:05] <Simira> I've got a little case for you ;)
[11:07] <cartman> anyone got the # of util-linux bug?
[11:07] <bob2> cdebootstrap seems very unhappy about using hoary as the suite
[11:14] <jdub> FEAR THE XORG UPLOAD
[11:15] <Simira> jdub: doesn't your mother use Ubuntu?
[11:16] <jdub> Simira: my metaphorical mother does
[11:16] <Amaranth> jdub: daniels broke more things? :)
[11:17] <Treenaks> Amaranth: no, it was fabbione this time :P
[11:17] <Treenaks> or was it seb? :P
[11:17] <Amaranth> uh oh
[11:17] <Amaranth> i don't see any xorg upgrades available, i must have them already
[11:18] <Amaranth> so, don't restart x then? :)
[11:18] <Treenaks> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:10:11 +0100 (BST)
[11:18] <Treenaks> Amaranth: ot jasm
[11:18] <Treenaks> *ahem*
[11:18] <Treenaks> it hasn't been built yet
[11:18] <Amaranth> ah
[11:18] <Amaranth> wtf did you say before that?
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[11:18] <Treenaks> Amaranth: "it hasn" with one hand shifted
[11:19] <Treenaks> and I hit enter instead of backspace
[11:19] <cartman> Amaranth: ha :)
[11:19] <daniels> jdub: small uploads are for weenies
[11:19] <daniels> jdub: although the codebase is at least shrinking every time I upload it
[11:19] <Amaranth> Treenaks: that's worse than ;p; (lol)
[11:19] <Treenaks> Amaranth: :)
[11:20] <jdub> daniels: getting rid of all those syscalls ;)
[11:20] <daniels> heh
[11:20] <daniels> syscalls are shit, who needs 'em?
[11:20] <jdub> yeah, just get in the way
[11:21] <Amaranth> hey if it's shrinking that means more room on the live cd
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[11:25] <cartman> uhgm btw libtunepimp2 has wrong deps.
[11:26] <cartman> depends on libmusicbrainz4 instead of libmusicbrainz4c2
[11:30] <Treenaks> tunepimp?
[11:30] <daniels> cartman: needs a recompile
[11:30] <Pupeno> I have just finished packaging sbcl 0.9.0 for (k)ubuntu! :D
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[11:30] <cartman> daniels: okies
[11:32] <Burgundavia> Pupeno, most things are synced from debian
[11:32] <Burgundavia> Pupeno, I noticed that sid already has 0.9, so it will hit ubuntu breezy very soon
[11:32] <Pupeno> Burgundavia: I know, but there were not sbcl 0.9.0 for hoary.
[11:33] <Burgundavia> Pupeno, taking this to -motu
[11:33] <Pupeno> oks.
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[11:46] <bob2> cdrecord should be able to burn cds on a dvd drive, right?
[11:47] <cartman> daniels: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10942 sounds similar to my weird xkb issue
[11:48] <cartman> actually its the same =)
[11:48] <cartman> looking at comments
[11:49] <Burgundavia> cartman, all breezy users are seeing it
[11:49] <cartman> ok
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[12:13] <cartman> bah xorg failed :/
[12:21] <Kamion> bob2: cdebootstrap doesn't support Ubuntu yet
[12:21] <bob2> ah
[12:22] <Kamion> use debootstrap
[12:22] <bob2> I gathered that, I was just kinda surprised it had hard-coded suites at all
[12:22] <bob2> yeah, I do, this was for dfsbuild
[12:23] <Kamion> I don't think cdebootstrap is quite the answer to all everyone's ills that it's cracked up to be
[12:24] <bob2> heh
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[12:28] <bob2> hah, debootstrap on ubuntu even loads the archive key into gpg
[12:32] <jdub> yo Kamion 
[12:33] <Kamion> bob2: right, it's on aj's list to merge to Debian ...
[12:33] <Kamion> jdub: yo
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[12:58] <m0rphx> what happened with util-linux in breezy? dmesg, getty... are missing
[12:59] <Kamion> yes, known bug
[12:59] <m0rphx> k
[12:59] <Kamion> I was actually just in the middle of looking through source packages for that, but got distracted ...
[01:00] <cartman> m0rphx: don't reboot until it gets fixed
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[01:01] <Kamion> ... oh, I bet I know
[01:01] <m0rphx> cartman: hehe, I already did. But thanks to the live CD I can boot again
[01:01] <Kamion> yay dpkg
[01:01] <cartman> m0rphx: oh ok :)
[01:01] <Kamion> ifeq ($(DEB_HOST_GNU_SYSTEM),linux)
[01:02] <Kamion> fixing
[01:02] <cartman> Kamion: that will fix util-linux too? :)
[01:03] <Kamion> I'm fixing util-linux
[01:03] <cartman> yay =)
[01:07] <jdub> SCHNNNNNAAAAAAKE!
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[01:36] <tseng> jdub: did you assign it to me? last i looked i cant search bugs
[01:36] <tseng> jdub: until they "release" a new malone
[01:42] <tseng> jdub: uh... yeah you are going to have to go back and assign it to me please, there is no other way to get to it
[01:42] <tseng> oh its near the top
[01:42] <tseng> and yes, we knew that
[01:43] <tseng> i need dbus update before i can build muine with fixed dh_clideps
[01:47] <Kamion> util-linux fix upload; will be available in an hour and a half or so
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[01:58] <xxenon> x.org broken in breezy ? (no "*fixed font" or something...)
[01:59] <Kamion> font path changed
[01:59] <xxenon> from what to what ?
[02:00] <willis> xxenon: dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[02:00] <willis> xxenon: then restart x and that might help
[02:00] <xxenon> okay
[02:00] <Kamion> xxenon: see the changelog
[02:00] <xxenon> k.
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[02:01] <willis> Kamion: i meant to ask about util-linux, it seems to be missing /sbin/getty
[02:02] <Kamion> willis: already fixed
[02:02] <Kamion> 12:47 < Kamion> util-linux fix upload; will be available in an hour and a half or so
[02:02] <willis> Kamion: cool thanks very much
[02:02] <Kamion> that was 15 minutes ago
[02:02] <Kamion> ... and s/upload/uploaded/
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[02:10] <hunger> Why was blockdev removed from util-linux?
[02:12] <hunger> Was that fixed by Kamions recent upload of util-linux?
[02:17] <Kamion> hunger: yes.
[02:18] <hunger> Kamion: You rock!
[02:18] <hunger> Kamion: thanks.
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[02:53] <Mithrandir> is it on purpose that util-linux no longer includes getty?
[02:53] <bob2> 22:02:23         Kamion |  12:47 < Kamion> util-linux fix upload; will be available in an hour and a half or so
[02:54] <Mithrandir> heh, ok
[02:54] <bob2> more amusingly, it's scott's fault
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[02:56] <Mithrandir> how so?
[02:56] <Mithrandir> it's the amazing dpkg?
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[03:04] <hunger> Kamion: Indeed, badblocks is back from the dead.
[03:07] <Kamion> Mithrandir: DEB_HOST_GNU_SYSTEM changed
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[03:11] <GheRivero> res
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[03:24] <Mirv> does someone happen to know if moinmoin can be forced to reload wikiconfig.py? with ordinary user privileges..
[03:24] <Mirv> or does someone even know what's the delay?
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[03:43] <trulux> pitti: ping
[03:44] <pitti> hey trulux 
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[03:45] <trulux> pitti: checked that last krsec?
[03:46] <trulux> pitti: I think that worked as expected, right?
[03:46] <pitti> trulux: You told me to wait since you wanted to port it to 2.6.12
[03:46] <pitti> trulux: you have a never version now?
[03:48] <trulux> pitti: yup, porting
[03:48] <trulux> pitti: just ended fixing akpm's patch-scripts and fixing a broken patches stack
[03:48] <trulux> pitti: weird thing ;(
[03:49] <pitti> Hi lamont
[03:49] <trulux> pitti: will get it going on well after lunch
[03:49] <trulux> pitti: are you going to be here for long?
[03:49] <pitti> trulux: I have to go soon, prepare a party for tonight
[03:50] <pitti> trulux: I will return tomorrow around noon, I'll be happy to build a new kernel then
[03:50] <lamont> morning pitti
[03:50] <trulux> pitti: OK, great anyways
[03:50] <trulux> pitti: will upload my SELinux-enabled packages soon
[03:55] <Riddell> Kamion: do you know why kdenetwork got into hoary-updates but knetworkconf hasn't
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[04:26] <robertj> are there any plans for Device Manager to manage devices in the breezy timeframe? If not, a name change might be good.
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[05:19] <lamont> elmo/Kamion: x11proto-* need some NEW love
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[06:57] <Kamion> Riddell: no.
[06:58] <Kamion> Riddell: it's all buildd stuff from here; please stop asking me about it, I'm sorry but I don't know exactly what the buildds are configured to do and I don't have access to the relevant machines to find out.
[07:00] <daniels> lamont: should've just been DMX
[07:00] <Kamion> Riddell: it seems likely that it was in @no_auto_build (which affects all suites) and that the buildds will get to it in time.
[07:01] <Riddell> Kamion: ok, sorry for the hassle
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[07:01] <Kamion> lamont: NEW's empty, I guess elmo did it
[07:01] <Kamion> Riddell: np
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[07:40] <Xgates> hey all
[07:41] <Xgates> quick compile question, the DEV team compiles with this flag -->  -march=i386 mcpu=i686?
[07:42] <Xgates> since ubuntu lists the .debs as i386 I'd figure this then has to be correct, BUT for the life of me can't figure why anyone would use i386 anymore since this is very old and all distros are now going at least at i486
[07:42] <Xgates> even Slack is i486
[07:43] <daniels> we use -mcpu=pentium4
[07:43] <daniels> as I explained in #ubuntu
[07:43] <Xgates> you've GOT to be joking right?
[07:43] <Xgates> please tell me so
[07:44] <Xgates> you dont want to do that
[07:44] <lamont> elmo/Kamion: xorg build-deps: x11proto-bigreqs-dev, x11proto-composite-dev, x11proto-damage-dev, x11proto-evie-dev, x11proto-fixes-dev, x11proto-dmx-dev
[07:44] <lamont> but some of those are universe...
[07:44] <daniels> they all need to be promoted to main
[07:44] <Xgates> daniels: you must not be into multimedia or know anything about it then for CPU optimizations
[07:45] <lamont> Xgates: note also that -march=i486 -mtune=pentium4 is the default in the compiler...
[07:45] <Xgates> that is not good then
[07:45] <daniels> Xgates: shit dude, I didn't do it, why are you laying into me?
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[07:45] <Xgates> mcpu=i686 is generic P4 is not
[07:45] <lamont> Xgates: anything that does signifcant amounts of multimedia already does -march=pentium4 and -march=k7 and runs the right bits at runtime.
[07:45] <Xgates> daniels: sorry I'm not hehe ;-)
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[07:45] <lamont> Xgates: please show me an app that runs slow.
[07:45] <daniels> if you want to put a clearly-reasoned argument, then do it on the mailing list, but wandering into IRC and laying into random developers at 0345 who have nothing to do with it is not the best idea
[07:46] <lamont> Xgates: and be sure to include an actual use case.
[07:46] <lamont> that is, an app that isn't _ALREADY_ compiling multiple versions and doing runtime detection
[07:46] <Xgates> lamont: thats not the point P4 optimiztion as in running the compile flag -mcpu-pentium4 is not correct for overall general compiling for the masses
[07:47] <lamont> Xgates: tell you what... compile the package both ways, and then tell me that you can determine which build you're running just by how fast it runs
[07:47] <Xgates> ppl using i586 or in that ball park or even the possible slight few running a i486 will have problems not to mention this is just not correct for AMD
[07:47] <daniels> Kamion: if there's some sort of main pre-seeding, then x11proto-{fonts,fontcache,gl,input,kb,panoramix,randr,record,resource,scrnsaver,trap,video,xcmisc,xext,xf86bigfont,xf86dga,xf86misc,xf86vidmode}-dev all need to go in
[07:47] <Xgates> lamont: speed is not the issue it's the optimizations of that particular CPU
[07:48] <Xgates> a P4 is not a AMD and vice versa and you should at least know that
[07:48] <lamont> Xgates: yes. in certain corner cases, the instructions will be scheduled in a less than optimal way for certain hardware.
[07:48] <daniels> Xgates: 'you should at least know that', 'you must not know anything about this' ... neither of these are good ways to make friends
[07:48] <Xgates> lamont: dude plain and simple this is just not correct compiling Ubuntu needs to start compiling this as -mcpu=i686
[07:49] <lamont> Xgates: there was talk back in warty of doing a separate K7 tree.  That was scrapped, pending someone showing anywhere that it actually made a visible difference to the user
[07:49] <daniels> Xgates: your argument is terrible
[07:49] <Xgates> that is a much better flag all the way across the board for i686 CPUS 
[07:49] <daniels> Xgates: when I said make a well-reasoned argument, that means put some reasons behind it
[07:49] <daniels> saying 'this is better, it must be done' is not a well-reasoned argument
[07:49] <daniels> and saying that the other people obviously don't know anything about it is an even worse way to do things
[07:49] <Xgates> daniels: not it is  not anyone with any compiling experience knows whats going on here and we would not even be talking about this
[07:49] <lamont> Xgates: starting with _ANY_ application that shows a noticible difference in performance between -mtune=686 and -mtune=pentium4, on amd64 or p4
[07:50] <daniels> Xgates: if you're going to keep arguing with that, then I will put you in +q
[07:50] <Xgates> daniels: it's real simple and it does not even need to be technical you either know what a P4 is and a AMD is or someone does not
[07:50] <Xgates> and it's clear that you dont then
[07:50] <lamont> Xgates: ad hominum attacks don't count as well reasoned
[07:50] <lamont> Xgates: sure we know the difference
[07:50] <daniels> Xgates: at the moment, all you're doing is annoying a lot of people.
[07:50] <lamont> and frankly, any real application either (1) does it at runtime, or (2) doesn't care.
[07:51] <Xgates> sorry I'm not here to troll and bother you I just dont get the reason the DEV team would do something like this that would be a hinderance 
[07:51] <Xgates> OH
[07:51] <Xgates> and yes I can tell you that on my AMD T-bird
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[07:51] <Xgates> the slow down was in fact very bad
=== mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o daniels]  by ChanServ
[07:52] <lamont> Xgates: for what application?
=== mode/#ubuntu-devel [+q *!*xgates@*]  by daniels
[07:52] <daniels> bored now
[07:52] <lamont> and running which kernel?
=== mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o daniels]  by daniels
[07:52] <lamont> ah, but it was just getting interesting
[07:52] <daniels> if you want to actually put some reasons behind this (not 'it's right and if you don't agree you don't know anything'), do it on the mailing list
[07:57] <lamont> Xgates: seriously - if there is a significant perf difference that the user can see, it'd be of interest.  It'd also be the first one we've seen in about a year, and > 1M CD's....
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[09:23] <thesaltydog>  /msg thesaltydog IDENTIFY 140289
[09:24] <thesaltydog>  /msg NickServ thesaltydog 140289
[09:24] <ogra> hmm, thanks for your passwrod... you should remove the whitespace in the front
[09:24] <zyga> ;-))
[09:25] <thesaltydog> that's not my password :-)
[09:25] <thesaltydog> thanks
[09:25] <ogra> nope, i guess its your b-day
[09:25] <zyga> it sure belongs to everyone now ;] 
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[09:29] <thesaltydog> ..
[09:30] <unifi> how many developers work directly for ubuntu here?
[09:34] <jnc> erg... advansys scsi module not building with kernel 2.6.12-2.6.11.92
[09:34] <jnc> it's not in the menuconfig
[09:34] <jnc> i wonder what happened
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[09:56] <thesaltydog> whcih is the policy to include an application into Rosetta, for localization?
[09:58] <ogra> thesaltydog, did you ask in #launchpad ?
[09:58] <thesaltydog> nope..
[09:59] <thesaltydog> I will..
[10:00] <thesaltydog> I have just put the question.. waiting for a reply..
[10:03] <thesaltydog> ogra,  it seems that only ghosts are there
[10:03] <ogra> hmm
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[10:04] <tuhl> after my latest update on breezy X is broken
[10:04] <tuhl> on my IBM notebook and a workstation
[10:05] <g14> tuhl: Read this channel topic :-)
[10:05] <tuhl> gcc4 transition starting, breezy probably well broken?
[10:05] <ogra> its a expected side effect, adjust your fontpaths or regenerate your config
[10:06] <tuhl> ogra: how is the config regenerated?
[10:07] <ogra> sudo dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg ? dunno, i didnt upgrade my breezy yet because i need my keymap and fonts ;)
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[10:17] <cartman> any news on how the transition is going? :/
[10:18] <lu|away> hehe
[10:18] <lu|away> yeah
[10:18] <lu|away> someone needs to blog a daily 'breezy is *this* ____________ broken' update
[10:18] <lu|away> :)
[10:20] <cartman> just wondering I run breezy now and yeah its borked ;)
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[10:54] <robertj> Did 2004 bounty budget roll over into 2005?
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=== mako is installing his userlinux packages into a chroot...
[11:03] <mako> dude, 2 extra gigs
[11:06] <robertj> mako: why are you digging through userlinux stuff?
[11:07] <mako> robertj: digging through, i've rewritten it :)
[11:07] <ogra> yay amko
[11:07] <ogra> mako
[11:07] <robertj> but err, why?
[11:07] <mako> robertj: i've made the userlinux metapackages installable on ubuntu
[11:07] <ogra> because people might want to use them
[11:08] <robertj> ahh for terminal server and the like?
[11:08] <mako> yeah, anyone that is intersted in userlinux can now use them from ubuntu
[11:08] <mako> i'm not sure they are going to be particularly useful really
[11:08] <mako> i mean, i won't use them
[11:08] <mako> but people seem to like userlinux
[11:08] <mako> so, they will like these
[11:08] <mako> it's also a nice thing we can do to fix their broken packages
[11:09] <mako> and it's a good step toward debian-distribution merging
[11:09] <mako> showing that we can all get along and even work together and share packages
[11:09] <g14> mako: Whats so great about userlinux? Doesn't ubuntu do what Bruce wanted to do and then some?
[11:09] <robertj> g14: shhh ;)
[11:09] <mako> g14: um.. it does for me :)
[11:09] <mako> g14: well, what userlinux has that we don't is a set of metapackages targetted at enterprises
[11:09] <robertj> actually UserLinux has alot of other goals that Ubuntu isn't near ( a certification program ), but Ubuntu is certianly nearer meeting the UL goals than UL is
[11:10] <mako> to make certain software configurations easily installable
[11:10] <mako> and i've just ported that to ubuntu
[11:10] <g14> mako: I understand, ubuntu will meet most of the UL goals before UL will though more than likely
[11:10] <robertj> the #1 metapackage most people want is a LDAP/KRB/SMB/PAM package that takes care of all the fuss
[11:11] <robertj> at least around our uni
[11:12] <g14> SSO and a directory server, that would be really nice
[11:12] <g14> If redhat would just hurry up and gpl the Netscape Directory Server they bought a year ago and said they would open source
[11:12] <robertj> gl4: I use Panther for that at work, it's pretty good at it
[11:13] <robertj> gl4: anyone who is large enough that slapd aint' gonna cut it probably doesn't need/benefit from a metapackage anyway
=== g14 has no problems with but it not a mac guy
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[11:13] <robertj> gl4: its just slapd, kerberos, and samba with sensible configs and a few gui tools
[11:14] <g14> robertj: OpenLDAP lacks many enterprise features that other directory servers feature. Yes, I've mucked around with ldap and kerberos
[11:14] <robertj> its still not perfect, like it will hang without prompting you if you give it a password protected cert, and won't give you a prompt to enter in the password
[11:14] <mako> hm.. liboil0.2 problems
[11:14] <robertj> gl4: yes it does, but it works "well enough"
[11:15] <g14> robertj: I agree, I've been trying to get hula email server set up with LDAP
[11:15] <g14> hula is purty
[11:15] <g14> http://www.hula-project.org/Hula_Server
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[11:16] <ogra> g14, did you use our hula package for that ?
[11:16] <hunger> The new twm has --slave settings in wrong order and thus does not configure.
[11:17] <g14> ogra: Actually, I do qa, I always use the latest svn and install it with checkinstall
[11:17] <ogra> sad
[11:17] <hunger> in update-alternatives in its postinstall.
[11:17] <mako> ok.. liboil0.2
[11:17] <ogra> i hoped i could hear some feedback from an actual user of the packages
[11:18] <elmo> mako: is obsolete
[11:18] <g14> ogra: The hula package in hoary universe is svn 162, they are currently up to rev 218. I would use it if it was updated every few weeks
[11:18] <ogra> heh, we cant
[11:18] <g14> ogra: But thats too much to ask of a busy ubuntu maintainer
[11:19] <ogra> no, we have a policy about updates in stable releases, we simply cant update it
[11:19] <g14> ogra: The novell guys I talk to say it will be "production ready" 1.0 somewhere around August
[11:20] <ogra> thats great, then we can have nice packages in breezy based on the current ones...
[11:20] <g14> I understand the stable packaging policy, its the debian mantra. Maybe hula 1.0 can be in breezy universe :)
[11:20] <g14> yes
[11:20] <mako> elmo: right.. and is not there
[11:20] <elmo> mako: why's your meta package depending on it?
[11:20] <mako> elmo: it's not.. other things are
[11:21] <g14> ogra: I've been talking with the hula and openchange devs so sometime in the future, hula will feature native mapi / outlook integration
=== ogra *shudders*
[11:22] <tseng> ogra: shudder?
[11:22] <elmo> mako: in breezy?
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[11:22] <tseng> ogra: be alot better than running exchange
[11:22] <herve> hi folks
[11:22] <mako> elmo: hoary
[11:22] <ogra> tseng, thats true :)
[11:22] <g14> ogra: outlook integration is what the suits want. 8 guys are writing openchange for a college thesis. No more exchange will beneift everyone
[11:23] <herve> g14, no, not MS ;-)
[11:23] <g14> herve: But honestly, who cares if MS doesn't benefit? It's not like they don't have a billion dollars or anything
[11:23] <robertj> btw, Evolution on win32 is coming along
[11:23] <elmo> mako: oh, err
[11:23] <g14> robertj: Really?
[11:24] <elmo> mako: my bad, fixed in next mirror pulse
[11:24] <robertj> novell is throwing money at it
[11:24] <robertj> Tor Lillqvist is on the case
[11:24] <mako> elmo: ok.. is it fixed in archive.u.c now?
[11:25] <g14> robertj: novell is throwing money at lots of great open source
[11:25] <mako> elmo: what happened?
[11:27] <elmo> mako: it got demoted in breezy, and I neglected to make hoary cope
[11:27] <elmo> mako: no, next pulse, i.e. ~30 mins
[11:28] <mako> elmo: awesome.. 
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[11:32] <herve> yo seb128
[11:32] <seb128> lu
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[11:43] <jp_> breezy is rockin :D
[11:43] <jp_> :)
[11:43] <jp_> :P
[11:47] <jp_> x is dead =)
[11:48] <jp_> /etc/X11/X is not executable :_)
[11:53] <jnc> excellent
[11:59] <justdave> does anyone know if anything changed at all in the default UserAgent string provided by Ubuntu's Firefox when the fixes from Firefox 1.0.4 were backported?
[12:01] <justdave> if anything changed at all, I could check for it to let Ubuntu people into addons.mozilla.org without having to hack their version number