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| === Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first. | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by sivang at Sat Jan 1 20:48:30 2005 | ||
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| froud | shuks what is the command to convert windows line feeds to unix | 11:41 |
|---|---|---|
| froud | what channel are the translators on please? | 11:57 |
| Burgundavia | hmm | 11:59 |
| Burgundavia | our translators? | 11:59 |
| froud | Any translators | 11:59 |
| Burgundavia | hmm | 11:59 |
| Burgundavia | #rosetta might have some | 11:59 |
| froud | I got a PO file created on windows | 11:59 |
| froud | and the line feeds etc are borked | 12:00 |
| froud | nobody at #rosetta | 12:00 |
| froud | Burgundavia: I wonder why the windows tools dont detect the unix line feeds and preserve them. I know the unix tool chain can be configured to preserve them windows structures. | 12:04 |
| Burgundavia | because windows is blinkered by ideology | 12:06 |
| Burgundavia | they cannot admit that *nix exists | 12:06 |
| froud | :-) | 12:06 |
| Burgundavia | and they don't want to take the time/money to bother to make something interoperate | 12:06 |
| Burgundavia | all that work is usually done by FLOSS people | 12:07 |
| Burgundavia | actually, it is amazing how much work goes into making FLOSS be as application/platform neutral as possible | 12:07 |
| froud | yeah, seems we embrace windows but not the other way around | 12:07 |
| Burgundavia | such as the Gnumeric people removing Gnome specific stuff | 12:07 |
| Burgundavia | so that they can share code with the Koffice people | 12:08 |
| froud | agreed | 12:08 |
| froud | keep it open all the way or dont do it is my motto | 12:08 |
| froud | whose awake | 01:54 |
| froud | anyone? | 01:54 |
| Seveas | i am :) | 01:55 |
| froud | Hi | 01:56 |
| Seveas | hi :) | 01:56 |
| froud | I need a community input to a subject | 01:56 |
| Seveas | which subject? | 01:56 |
| froud | I trust everyone here know what the LPI is? | 01:57 |
| Seveas | hmm, i don't... | 01:57 |
| froud | http://www.lpi.org/ | 01:57 |
| froud | I have a vision to develop instructor lead training materials | 01:58 |
| froud | for Ubuntu | 01:58 |
| froud | now there are a number of course out there that say they are aligned to the lpi | 01:58 |
| Seveas | sounds good | 01:58 |
| froud | and lpi is distro neutral | 01:59 |
| froud | I wonder if it is possible to develop LPI/Ubuntu Materials | 01:59 |
| froud | the lpi part must be neutral | 01:59 |
| Seveas | i think you cannot stay completely distro-neutral | 01:59 |
| Seveas | but lpi+ubuntu specific parts sounds like a nice idea to me | 02:00 |
| froud | I wonder how others would approach this problem | 02:00 |
| froud | my approach is to merge the two | 02:00 |
| froud | others say do them seperate | 02:00 |
| Seveas | i think you should discuss it on the ubuntu-doc mailinglist | 02:00 |
| froud | like do lpi and then ubuntu specifics | 02:01 |
| froud | yes and no | 02:01 |
| froud | first want some thoughts | 02:01 |
| froud | from a small group | 02:01 |
| froud | what approach do you think would be best | 02:02 |
| froud | remember the students will have ubuntu installed | 02:02 |
| froud | so the notes must be ubuntu, but also satisfy the requirement | 02:02 |
| froud | that they can be used to pass the LPI | 02:02 |
| Seveas | how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to package management? | 02:03 |
| froud | exactly | 02:03 |
| froud | lpi covers deb and rpm | 02:03 |
| Seveas | ah | 02:03 |
| Seveas | how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to desktop environment? | 02:04 |
| froud | lpi does not really cover desktop | 02:04 |
| Seveas | ouch | 02:04 |
| froud | just the cli stuff | 02:04 |
| Seveas | that's bad | 02:05 |
| froud | seperate or merged, this is my debate | 02:05 |
| froud | I like the merged approach | 02:05 |
| === Seveas too | ||
| froud | since students learn linline | 02:05 |
| froud | take packaging | 02:05 |
| Seveas | definitely merge it if lpi covers only cli | 02:05 |
| froud | why wait until the end to teach how to use deb | 02:06 |
| froud | lpi is aimed at sys admins | 02:06 |
| froud | some basics about installing desktops | 02:06 |
| froud | and stuff | 02:06 |
| Seveas | even sysadmins should now gui | 02:06 |
| froud | but not abouthow to use the desktop | 02:06 |
| Seveas | they should be able to install & maintain it | 02:06 |
| froud | that is about all lpi covers | 02:07 |
| Seveas | hmm, i'll take a closer look at lpi | 02:07 |
| froud | would there be any benefit in developing an additional part to an lpi certified course that just covers the ubuntu specific stuff | 02:08 |
| froud | on the one hand | 02:08 |
| froud | the seperate specific approach is shorter | 02:08 |
| froud | but the merged approach is better for the learning curve | 02:08 |
| Seveas | indeed | 02:08 |
| froud | would the seperate approach create problems in the classroom | 02:09 |
| Seveas | well, try to find some more opinions, i'd say go for the merged approach, but i'm not even part of the doc-team | 02:09 |
| froud | you are now ;-) | 02:09 |
| froud | intersting if you see yourself as not part of the team, what are you doing on the channel, you have been here for a few weeks now | 02:10 |
| Seveas | not really | 02:10 |
| froud | just like our company :-) | 02:10 |
| Seveas | i'm here since only a few days | 02:10 |
| froud | Ah, you want to contribute? | 02:11 |
| Seveas | just for reading along with the doc team | 02:11 |
| Seveas | i'm translating the ubuntu website | 02:11 |
| froud | ok | 02:11 |
| froud | in rosetta | 02:11 |
| Seveas | www.ubuntulinux.nl is my dutch translation | 02:11 |
| Seveas | no, i started before rosetta was operational | 02:11 |
| froud | how you gonna manage the updates to that | 02:12 |
| Seveas | well, not | 02:12 |
| froud | Hmmm | 02:12 |
| Seveas | i'll merge it with the official website when the infrastructure is there | 02:12 |
| froud | and then how will people keep track of all the updates in all the languages? | 02:13 |
| Seveas | but so far, i'm translating bits and pieces of the pages | 02:13 |
| froud | wheew, hard work dude | 02:13 |
| Seveas | froud, i have been told that there is no easy way yet to integrate it in the official site | 02:13 |
| Seveas | so that's why i'm doing it this way | 02:13 |
| froud | OK, you mean there is a way to move the translated text over | 02:13 |
| Seveas | the engine behind my site is xml based, i can easily transform the content to any format needed | 02:14 |
| froud | my concern is what happens when english pages change,how will translators keep track of all those changes | 02:14 |
| froud | Hmmm XML, tell me more | 02:14 |
| froud | what is the engine | 02:14 |
| Seveas | right now i do it the hard way: once in a while i check the pages for changes | 02:15 |
| froud | I c | 02:15 |
| Seveas | home-made engine | 02:15 |
| Seveas | very flexible | 02:15 |
| froud | Do cyou have an engine for taking docbook and doing it | 02:15 |
| froud | we need a round trip solution | 02:16 |
| Seveas | www.kaarsemaker.net www.ubuntulinux.nl nuts.okkernoot.net/~dennis/uvasite are run by the same engine (with symlinks). Only config/template and content are different | 02:16 |
| froud | ok | 02:16 |
| froud | so the xml is valid to what dtd | 02:16 |
| Seveas | no, it cannot take docbook | 02:16 |
| Seveas | my own dtd | 02:16 |
| froud | arrghh | 02:16 |
| Seveas | sorry :) | 02:16 |
| froud | no its ok | 02:17 |
| Seveas | but it's pluggable, so i can 'easily' implement other DTD's | 02:17 |
| froud | we are looking for a wayto round trip from wiki to docbook and back | 02:17 |
| Seveas | ah ok | 02:17 |
| froud | problem is it is easy to go docbook to moin | 02:17 |
| Seveas | wiki == moinmoin? | 02:17 |
| froud | not so easy the other way around | 02:17 |
| Seveas | why not? | 02:17 |
| froud | how to mark <filename> | 02:18 |
| Seveas | wiki translates moin to html, why couldn't one be able to translate to docbook? | 02:18 |
| froud | not so easy | 02:18 |
| Seveas | (i have never used docbook by the way) | 02:18 |
| froud | I have a solution | 02:18 |
| froud | but it needs java | 02:18 |
| Seveas | :| | 02:19 |
| froud | authors editing in web based xml editor | 02:19 |
| froud | relax ng | 02:19 |
| Seveas | hmm | 02:19 |
| froud | used lenya | 02:19 |
| froud | lenya.apache.org | 02:19 |
| Seveas | i must say that i'm not fond of java applets for editing | 02:19 |
| froud | extended the bitflux editor to support docbook | 02:20 |
| froud | slow though | 02:20 |
| froud | I must find time to compile the dtd into a binary to make it faster | 02:20 |
| froud | loading over 400 elements is not an option | 02:21 |
| Seveas | ouch | 02:21 |
| Seveas | indeed | 02:21 |
| froud | well not ove rthe web | 02:21 |
| froud | on my dsl it takes 4 minutes to load the editor and the dtd | 02:21 |
| froud | not good | 02:21 |
| Seveas | :| | 02:21 |
| froud | perhaps if I make it a binary file then only the first load will be long | 02:22 |
| froud | and subsequent sessions will be faster | 02:22 |
| Seveas | yeah, but no one wants to wait 4 minutes for a wikipage. Not even once | 02:22 |
| froud | providing that the user does not wipe the cache | 02:22 |
| Seveas | and never trust caches :) | 02:22 |
| froud | exactly | 02:22 |
| froud | the other option is to get the binary installed | 02:22 |
| froud | or to change the editor to look for an installed version of the dtd | 02:23 |
| Seveas | but then everyone needs to install something to edit (or even watch?) the wiki | 02:23 |
| froud | took the words from my mouth :-) | 02:23 |
| Seveas | i don't see either of these plans working actually | 02:24 |
| Seveas | the wiki needs to be easily accessible | 02:24 |
| Seveas | or you'll scare people away | 02:24 |
| froud | yeah, well if it was easy everyone would be doing it :-) | 02:24 |
| froud | it's a nice problem though | 02:24 |
| Seveas | so the option you need is moin2docbook | 02:24 |
| Seveas | do you have a pointer to a docbook howto, i want to look into it | 02:25 |
| froud | that works to a point | 02:25 |
| froud | docbook.sf.net | 02:25 |
| froud | moin2docbook is on the docbook wiki site | 02:25 |
| Seveas | for which purpose do you need the docbook? | 02:25 |
| froud | the docs we package with the distro | 02:26 |
| froud | the ones you see under yelp are docbook | 02:26 |
| Seveas | ahh, so the moin2docbook is a process that does not have to be extremely fast | 02:26 |
| froud | problem with moin2docbook is that it is not able to do it consistantly | 02:27 |
| Seveas | hmm | 02:27 |
| froud | and so you have overhead | 02:27 |
| froud | you must fix the resulting docbook | 02:27 |
| Seveas | ouch | 02:27 |
| froud | each time | 02:27 |
| froud | that's why I look to edit the xml under the browser | 02:28 |
| Seveas | is that a problem with the implementation, or a general unsolvable problem due to the fact that moin is not that structured? | 02:28 |
| froud | the second one | 02:28 |
| Seveas | hmm | 02:28 |
| froud | the permutations are endless | 02:28 |
| froud | eric raymond has some tools | 02:28 |
| Seveas | have you ever looked at general rewriting languages like m4 or asf+sdf for doing this? | 02:28 |
| froud | he also warns of this problem | 02:28 |
| froud | no have you got some links | 02:28 |
| froud | like you say, people want easy editing | 02:29 |
| froud | but we want structure | 02:29 |
| froud | the two are at opposite ends of the same stick | 02:30 |
| froud | but the stick is dry and bringing them together will break the stick | 02:30 |
| froud | that's why I go for editing xml under the browser | 02:30 |
| froud | WYSIOO | 02:30 |
| froud | what you see is one option | 02:30 |
| Seveas | asf+sdf is a rewriting formalism that can be used for generalized parsing and rewriting, it's developed at the CWI (center for mathematics and computer science) in amsterdam, NL. I have some experience with it now, you can find it at: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/sen1/twiki/bin/view/SEN1/MetaEnvironment | 02:31 |
| Seveas | m4 is the gnu macro stuff used in (oa) autoconf/automake: http://www.gnu.org/software/m4/ | 02:32 |
| froud | Hmm, just reading hang on | 02:32 |
| Seveas | from my experience with general rewriting, i know that these things should be solvable | 02:37 |
| froud | yes, but code is consistant, moin is not :-) | 02:37 |
| Seveas | it's just that it's guite an undertaking to write for instance an asf+sdf moin2docbook translator | 02:37 |
| froud | yes | 02:38 |
| Seveas | well, this can handle inconsistencies too | 02:38 |
| froud | whew, it's a nice idea, but gee whizz | 02:38 |
| Seveas | :) | 02:38 |
| Seveas | if i'm in a geeky mood, i'll try playing with it | 02:38 |
| froud | sure | 02:38 |
| froud | let us know if you find a solution | 02:39 |
| Burgundavia | Seveas, you put yourself up for op on #ubuntu at the next CC meeting? | 02:39 |
| Seveas | yes Burgundavia | 02:39 |
| Seveas | i'm DennisKaarsemaker | 02:39 |
| Burgundavia | Seveas, ok, cheers | 02:39 |
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| mdke | hi y'all | 11:41 |
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| carthik__ | hi, is there a quick guide on moin moin formatting anywhere? | 11:51 |
| mdke | yep | 11:51 |
| mdke | carthik__, on our wiki there is one | 11:51 |
| mdke | good place to start is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HelpOnEditing | 11:52 |
| mdke | that should link you to some other good stuff | 11:52 |
| carthik | mdke, thanks, I was looking to flesh out a few things on the FAQ page | 11:52 |
| mdke | which page is that? | 11:52 |
| carthik | mdke, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions | 11:53 |
| carthik | bad formatting | 11:53 |
| carthik | and I learnt a few things setting up my printer, so will flesh that section out a little | 11:53 |
| mdke | gosh that document sucks | 11:53 |
| mdke | best thing is to find a page directly on the topic you're interested in (such as the printer) | 11:54 |
| carthik | mdke, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MoinMoinMarkupExamples does not deal with un-wikified, or pre-formatted text | 11:54 |
| mdke | or make one ;) | 11:54 |
| carthik | mdke, there is no printer page | 11:54 |
| mdke | carthik, what do you mean by un-wikified or pre-formatted text? | 11:54 |
| carthik | and I need to paste code samples, that are pre-formatted | 11:54 |
| mdke | carthik, that is done using {{{ tags | 11:55 |
| mdke | then }}} | 11:55 |
| mdke | its on that page | 11:55 |
| mdke | oh crap that page has been heavily edited since i last used it | 11:55 |
| carthik | mdke, look for the section titled : How can I share my printer on my LAN? | 11:55 |
| mdke | carthik, tell you what, use this page instead | 11:55 |
| carthik | on the FAQ page | 11:55 |
| mdke | http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/MoinMoin | 11:56 |
| carthik | the formatting sucks, for the <Location> ... </Location> section. | 11:56 |
| mdke | carthik, ok forget about the first link i gave you, someone has ruined it, use the udu.wiki.ubuntu page | 11:57 |
| carthik | mdke, that site you linked to - does not allow me to view source | 11:57 |
| carthik | mdke, edit it, that is | 11:58 |
| carthik | no permissions, it says | 11:58 |
| mdke | you logged in? | 11:58 |
| carthik | mdke, you should really be using mediawiki - I would have jumped right in to help | 11:58 |
| mdke | carthik, not my decision | 11:58 |
| mdke | are you the guy who posted on the list recently? | 11:58 |
| carthik | mdke, I dont want to create an account at the UDU wiki now. | 11:58 |
| carthik | mdke, no I am not the guy | 11:58 |
| mdke | carthik, i think the accounts are twinned | 11:59 |
| mdke | hmm no maybe not | 11:59 |
| carthik | mdke, it is so difficult for a random newbie like me to edit a page, this does away with the benefit of a wiki, IMHO | 11:59 |
| mdke | we need better docs for the markup i suppose | 11:59 |
| mdke | should have locked down the HelpOnEditing page | 12:00 |
| mdke | carthik, we are moving wikis soon, hopefully the new one will be better organised | 12:00 |
| carthik | mdke, cool | 12:01 |
| mdke | carthik, still moin tho | 12:01 |
| carthik | mdke, I work almost full time at http://codex.wordpress.org which is a mediawiki wiki - life is much better without CamelCase | 12:01 |
| carthik | Try reading a phrase with 5 words, written in CamelCase, and you'll see the difficulty:) | 12:02 |
| carthik | mdke, thank you, you have been extremely helpful - please dont think I am dissing anything here :) | 12:02 |
| mdke | carthik, i understand your criticisms | 12:02 |
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