[11:41] <froud> shuks what is the command to convert windows line feeds to unix
[11:57] <froud> what channel are the translators on please?
[11:59] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:59] <Burgundavia> our translators?
[11:59] <froud> Any translators
[11:59] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:59] <Burgundavia> #rosetta might have some
[11:59] <froud> I got a PO file created on windows
[12:00] <froud> and the line feeds etc are borked
[12:00] <froud> nobody at #rosetta
[12:04] <froud> Burgundavia: I wonder why the windows tools dont detect the unix line feeds and preserve them. I know the unix tool chain can be configured to preserve them windows structures.
[12:06] <Burgundavia> because windows is blinkered by ideology
[12:06] <Burgundavia> they cannot admit that *nix exists
[12:06] <froud> :-)
[12:06] <Burgundavia> and they don't want to take the time/money to bother to make something interoperate
[12:07] <Burgundavia> all that work is usually done by FLOSS people
[12:07] <Burgundavia> actually, it is amazing how much work goes into making FLOSS be as application/platform neutral as possible
[12:07] <froud> yeah, seems we embrace windows but not the other way around
[12:07] <Burgundavia> such as the Gnumeric people removing Gnome specific stuff
[12:08] <Burgundavia> so that they can share code with the Koffice people
[12:08] <froud> agreed
[12:08] <froud> keep it open all the way or dont do it is my motto
[01:54] <froud> whose awake
[01:54] <froud> anyone?
[01:55] <Seveas> i am :)
[01:56] <froud> Hi
[01:56] <Seveas> hi :)
[01:56] <froud> I need a community input to a subject
[01:56] <Seveas> which subject?
[01:57] <froud> I trust everyone here know what the LPI is?
[01:57] <Seveas> hmm, i don't...
[01:57] <froud> http://www.lpi.org/
[01:58] <froud> I have a vision to develop instructor lead training materials
[01:58] <froud> for Ubuntu
[01:58] <froud> now there are a number of course out there that say they are aligned to the lpi
[01:58] <Seveas> sounds good
[01:59] <froud> and lpi is distro neutral
[01:59] <froud> I wonder if it is possible to develop LPI/Ubuntu Materials
[01:59] <froud> the lpi part must be neutral
[01:59] <Seveas> i think you cannot stay completely distro-neutral
[02:00] <Seveas> but lpi+ubuntu specific parts sounds like a nice idea to me
[02:00] <froud> I wonder how others would approach this problem
[02:00] <froud> my approach is to merge the two
[02:00] <froud> others say do them seperate
[02:00] <Seveas> i think you should discuss it on the ubuntu-doc mailinglist
[02:01] <froud> like do lpi and then ubuntu specifics
[02:01] <froud> yes and no
[02:01] <froud> first want some thoughts
[02:01] <froud> from a small group
[02:02] <froud> what approach do you think would be best
[02:02] <froud> remember the students will have ubuntu installed
[02:02] <froud> so the notes must be ubuntu, but also satisfy the requirement
[02:02] <froud> that they can be used to pass the LPI
[02:03] <Seveas> how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to package management?
[02:03] <froud> exactly
[02:03] <froud> lpi covers deb and rpm
[02:03] <Seveas> ah
[02:04] <Seveas> how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to desktop environment?
[02:04] <froud> lpi does not really cover desktop
[02:04] <Seveas> ouch
[02:04] <froud> just the cli stuff
[02:05] <Seveas> that's bad
[02:05] <froud> seperate or merged, this is my debate
[02:05] <froud> I like the merged approach
[02:05] <froud> since students learn linline
[02:05] <froud> take packaging
[02:05] <Seveas> definitely merge it if lpi covers only cli
[02:06] <froud> why wait until the end to teach how to use deb
[02:06] <froud> lpi is aimed at sys admins
[02:06] <froud> some basics about installing desktops
[02:06] <froud> and stuff
[02:06] <Seveas> even sysadmins should now gui
[02:06] <froud> but not abouthow to use the desktop
[02:06] <Seveas> they should be able to install & maintain it
[02:07] <froud> that is about all lpi covers
[02:07] <Seveas> hmm, i'll take a closer look at lpi
[02:08] <froud> would there be any benefit in developing an additional part to an lpi certified course that just covers the ubuntu specific stuff
[02:08] <froud> on the one hand
[02:08] <froud> the seperate specific approach is shorter
[02:08] <froud> but the merged approach is better for the learning curve
[02:08] <Seveas> indeed
[02:09] <froud> would the seperate approach create problems in the classroom
[02:09] <Seveas> well, try to find some more opinions, i'd say go for the merged approach, but i'm not even part of the doc-team 
[02:09] <froud> you are now ;-)
[02:10] <froud> intersting if you see yourself as not part of the team, what are you doing on the channel, you have been here for a few weeks now
[02:10] <Seveas> not really
[02:10] <froud> just like our company :-)
[02:10] <Seveas> i'm here since only a few days
[02:11] <froud> Ah, you want to contribute?
[02:11] <Seveas> just for reading along with the doc team
[02:11] <Seveas> i'm translating the ubuntu website
[02:11] <froud> ok
[02:11] <froud> in rosetta
[02:11] <Seveas> www.ubuntulinux.nl is my dutch translation
[02:11] <Seveas> no, i started before rosetta was operational
[02:12] <froud> how you gonna manage the updates to that
[02:12] <Seveas> well, not
[02:12] <froud> Hmmm
[02:12] <Seveas> i'll merge it with the official website when the infrastructure is there
[02:13] <froud> and then how will people keep track of all the updates in all the languages?
[02:13] <Seveas> but so far, i'm translating bits and pieces of the pages
[02:13] <froud> wheew, hard work dude
[02:13] <Seveas> froud, i have been told that there is no easy way yet to integrate it in the official site
[02:13] <Seveas> so that's why i'm doing it this way
[02:13] <froud> OK, you mean there is a way to move the translated text over
[02:14] <Seveas> the engine behind my site is xml based, i can easily transform the content to any format needed 
[02:14] <froud> my concern is what happens when english pages change,how will translators keep track of all those changes
[02:14] <froud> Hmmm XML, tell me more
[02:14] <froud> what is the engine
[02:15] <Seveas> right now i do it the hard way: once in a while i check the pages for changes
[02:15] <froud> I c
[02:15] <Seveas> home-made engine
[02:15] <Seveas> very flexible
[02:15] <froud> Do cyou have an engine for taking docbook and doing it
[02:16] <froud> we need a round trip solution
[02:16] <Seveas> www.kaarsemaker.net www.ubuntulinux.nl nuts.okkernoot.net/~dennis/uvasite are run by the same engine (with symlinks). Only config/template and content are different
[02:16] <froud> ok
[02:16] <froud> so the xml is valid to what dtd
[02:16] <Seveas> no, it cannot take docbook
[02:16] <Seveas> my own dtd
[02:16] <froud> arrghh
[02:16] <Seveas> sorry :)
[02:17] <froud> no its ok
[02:17] <Seveas> but it's pluggable, so i can 'easily' implement other DTD's
[02:17] <froud> we are looking for a wayto round trip from wiki to docbook and back
[02:17] <Seveas> ah ok
[02:17] <froud> problem is it is easy to go docbook to moin
[02:17] <Seveas> wiki == moinmoin?
[02:17] <froud> not so easy the other way around
[02:17] <Seveas> why not?
[02:18] <froud> how to mark <filename>
[02:18] <Seveas> wiki translates moin to html, why couldn't one be able to translate to docbook?
[02:18] <froud> not so easy
[02:18] <Seveas> (i have never used docbook by the way)
[02:18] <froud> I have a solution
[02:18] <froud> but it needs java
[02:19] <Seveas> :|
[02:19] <froud> authors editing in web based xml editor
[02:19] <froud> relax ng
[02:19] <Seveas> hmm
[02:19] <froud> used lenya
[02:19] <froud> lenya.apache.org
[02:19] <Seveas> i must say that i'm not fond of java applets for editing
[02:20] <froud> extended the bitflux editor to support docbook
[02:20] <froud> slow though
[02:20] <froud> I must find time to compile the dtd into a binary to make it faster
[02:21] <froud> loading over 400 elements is not an option
[02:21] <Seveas> ouch
[02:21] <Seveas> indeed
[02:21] <froud> well not ove rthe web
[02:21] <froud> on my dsl it takes 4 minutes to load the editor and the dtd
[02:21] <froud> not good
[02:21] <Seveas> :|
[02:22] <froud> perhaps if I make it a binary file then only the first load will be long
[02:22] <froud> and subsequent sessions will be faster
[02:22] <Seveas> yeah, but no one wants to wait 4 minutes for a wikipage. Not even once
[02:22] <froud> providing that the user does not wipe the cache
[02:22] <Seveas> and never trust caches :)
[02:22] <froud> exactly
[02:22] <froud> the other option is to get the binary installed
[02:23] <froud> or to change the editor to look for an installed version of the dtd
[02:23] <Seveas> but then everyone needs to install something to edit (or even watch?) the wiki
[02:23] <froud> took the words from my mouth :-)
[02:24] <Seveas> i don't see either of these plans working actually
[02:24] <Seveas> the wiki needs to be easily accessible
[02:24] <Seveas> or you'll scare people away
[02:24] <froud> yeah, well if it was easy everyone would be doing it :-)
[02:24] <froud> it's a nice problem though
[02:24] <Seveas> so the option you need is moin2docbook
[02:25] <Seveas> do you have a pointer to a docbook howto, i want to look into it 
[02:25] <froud> that works to a point
[02:25] <froud> docbook.sf.net
[02:25] <froud> moin2docbook is on the docbook wiki site
[02:25] <Seveas> for which purpose do you need the docbook?
[02:26] <froud> the docs we package with the distro
[02:26] <froud> the ones you see under yelp are docbook
[02:26] <Seveas> ahh, so the moin2docbook is a process that does not have to be extremely fast
[02:27] <froud> problem with moin2docbook is that it is not able to do it consistantly
[02:27] <Seveas> hmm
[02:27] <froud> and so you have overhead
[02:27] <froud> you must fix the resulting docbook
[02:27] <Seveas> ouch
[02:27] <froud> each time
[02:28] <froud> that's why I look to edit the xml under the browser
[02:28] <Seveas> is that a problem with the implementation, or a general unsolvable problem due to the fact that moin is not that structured?
[02:28] <froud> the second one
[02:28] <Seveas> hmm
[02:28] <froud> the permutations are endless
[02:28] <froud> eric raymond has some tools
[02:28] <Seveas> have you ever looked at general rewriting languages like m4 or asf+sdf for doing this?
[02:28] <froud> he also warns of this problem
[02:28] <froud> no have you got some links
[02:29] <froud> like you say, people want easy editing
[02:29] <froud> but we want structure
[02:30] <froud> the two are at opposite ends of the same stick
[02:30] <froud> but the stick is dry and bringing them together will break the stick
[02:30] <froud> that's why I go for editing xml under the browser
[02:30] <froud> WYSIOO
[02:30] <froud> what you see is one option
[02:31] <Seveas> asf+sdf is a rewriting formalism that can be used for generalized parsing and rewriting, it's developed at the CWI (center for mathematics and computer science) in amsterdam, NL. I have some experience with it now, you can find it at: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/sen1/twiki/bin/view/SEN1/MetaEnvironment
[02:32] <Seveas> m4 is the gnu macro stuff used in (oa) autoconf/automake: http://www.gnu.org/software/m4/
[02:32] <froud> Hmm, just reading hang on
[02:37] <Seveas> from my experience with general rewriting, i know that these things should be solvable
[02:37] <froud> yes, but code is consistant, moin is not :-)
[02:37] <Seveas> it's just that it's guite an undertaking to write for instance an asf+sdf moin2docbook translator
[02:38] <froud> yes
[02:38] <Seveas> well, this can handle inconsistencies too
[02:38] <froud> whew, it's a nice idea, but gee whizz
[02:38] <Seveas> :)
[02:38] <Seveas> if i'm in a geeky mood, i'll try playing with it
[02:38] <froud> sure
[02:39] <froud> let us know if you find a solution
[02:39] <Burgundavia> Seveas, you put yourself up for op on #ubuntu at the next CC meeting?
[02:39] <Seveas> yes Burgundavia 
[02:39] <Seveas> i'm DennisKaarsemaker
[02:39] <Burgundavia> Seveas, ok, cheers
[11:41] <mdke> hi y'all
[11:51] <carthik__> hi, is there a quick guide on moin moin formatting anywhere?
[11:51] <mdke> yep
[11:51] <mdke> carthik__, on our wiki there is one
[11:52] <mdke> good place to start is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HelpOnEditing
[11:52] <mdke> that should link you to some other good stuff
[11:52] <carthik> mdke, thanks, I was looking to flesh out a few things on the FAQ page
[11:52] <mdke> which page is that?
[11:53] <carthik> mdke, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
[11:53] <carthik> bad formatting
[11:53] <carthik> and I learnt a few things setting up my printer, so will flesh that section out a little
[11:53] <mdke> gosh that document sucks
[11:54] <mdke> best thing is to find a page directly on the topic you're interested in (such as the printer)
[11:54] <carthik> mdke, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MoinMoinMarkupExamples does not deal with un-wikified, or pre-formatted text
[11:54] <mdke> or make one ;)
[11:54] <carthik> mdke, there is no printer page
[11:54] <mdke> carthik, what do you mean by un-wikified or pre-formatted text?
[11:54] <carthik> and I need to paste code samples, that are pre-formatted
[11:55] <mdke> carthik, that is done using {{{ tags
[11:55] <mdke> then }}}
[11:55] <mdke> its on that page
[11:55] <mdke> oh crap that page has been heavily edited since i last used it
[11:55] <carthik> mdke, look for the section titled : How can I share my printer on my LAN?
[11:55] <mdke> carthik, tell you what, use this page instead
[11:55] <carthik> on the FAQ page
[11:56] <mdke> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/MoinMoin
[11:56] <carthik> the formatting sucks, for the <Location> ... </Location> section.
[11:57] <mdke> carthik, ok forget about the first link i gave you, someone has ruined it, use the udu.wiki.ubuntu page
[11:57] <carthik> mdke, that site you linked to - does not allow me to view source
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, edit it, that is
[11:58] <carthik> no permissions, it says
[11:58] <mdke> you logged in?
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, you should really be using mediawiki - I would have jumped right in to help
[11:58] <mdke> carthik, not my decision
[11:58] <mdke> are you the guy who posted on the list recently?
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, I dont want to create an account at the UDU wiki now.
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, no I am not the guy
[11:59] <mdke> carthik, i think the accounts are twinned
[11:59] <mdke> hmm no maybe not
[11:59] <carthik> mdke, it is so difficult for a random newbie like me to edit a page, this does away with the benefit of a wiki, IMHO
[11:59] <mdke> we need better docs for the markup i suppose
[12:00] <mdke> should have locked down the HelpOnEditing page
[12:00] <mdke> carthik, we are moving wikis soon, hopefully the new one will be better organised
[12:01] <carthik> mdke, cool
[12:01] <mdke> carthik, still moin tho
[12:01] <carthik> mdke, I work almost full time at http://codex.wordpress.org which is a mediawiki wiki - life is much better without CamelCase
[12:02] <carthik> Try reading a phrase with 5 words, written in CamelCase, and you'll see the difficulty:)
[12:02] <carthik> mdke, thank you, you have been extremely helpful - please dont think I am dissing anything here :)
[12:02] <mdke> carthik, i understand your criticisms