=== CarlK [~ck2@c-67-163-11-11.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ilba7r [~ilba7r@d141-64-4.home.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ilba7r [~ilba7r@d141-64-4.home.cgocable.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === ilba7r [~ilba7r@d141-64-4.home.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ubuntulog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first. === Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by sivang at Sat Jan 1 20:48:30 2005 === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === k31th_ [~stealth@flashtek-uk.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@24.68.142.99] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jdub [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mako [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sladen [paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mako [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mako_ [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [~mdke@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === asw [~asw@node-423a728a.bos.onnet.us.uu.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.209.163] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:41] shuks what is the command to convert windows line feeds to unix [11:57] what channel are the translators on please? [11:59] hmm [11:59] our translators? [11:59] Any translators [11:59] hmm [11:59] #rosetta might have some [11:59] I got a PO file created on windows [12:00] and the line feeds etc are borked [12:00] nobody at #rosetta [12:04] Burgundavia: I wonder why the windows tools dont detect the unix line feeds and preserve them. I know the unix tool chain can be configured to preserve them windows structures. [12:06] because windows is blinkered by ideology [12:06] they cannot admit that *nix exists [12:06] :-) [12:06] and they don't want to take the time/money to bother to make something interoperate [12:07] all that work is usually done by FLOSS people [12:07] actually, it is amazing how much work goes into making FLOSS be as application/platform neutral as possible [12:07] yeah, seems we embrace windows but not the other way around [12:07] such as the Gnumeric people removing Gnome specific stuff [12:08] so that they can share code with the Koffice people [12:08] agreed [12:08] keep it open all the way or dont do it is my motto [01:54] whose awake [01:54] anyone? [01:55] i am :) [01:56] Hi [01:56] hi :) [01:56] I need a community input to a subject [01:56] which subject? [01:57] I trust everyone here know what the LPI is? [01:57] hmm, i don't... [01:57] http://www.lpi.org/ [01:58] I have a vision to develop instructor lead training materials [01:58] for Ubuntu [01:58] now there are a number of course out there that say they are aligned to the lpi [01:58] sounds good [01:59] and lpi is distro neutral [01:59] I wonder if it is possible to develop LPI/Ubuntu Materials [01:59] the lpi part must be neutral [01:59] i think you cannot stay completely distro-neutral [02:00] but lpi+ubuntu specific parts sounds like a nice idea to me [02:00] I wonder how others would approach this problem [02:00] my approach is to merge the two [02:00] others say do them seperate [02:00] i think you should discuss it on the ubuntu-doc mailinglist [02:01] like do lpi and then ubuntu specifics [02:01] yes and no [02:01] first want some thoughts [02:01] from a small group [02:02] what approach do you think would be best [02:02] remember the students will have ubuntu installed [02:02] so the notes must be ubuntu, but also satisfy the requirement [02:02] that they can be used to pass the LPI [02:03] how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to package management? [02:03] exactly [02:03] lpi covers deb and rpm [02:03] ah [02:04] how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to desktop environment? [02:04] lpi does not really cover desktop [02:04] ouch [02:04] just the cli stuff [02:05] that's bad [02:05] seperate or merged, this is my debate [02:05] I like the merged approach === Seveas too [02:05] since students learn linline [02:05] take packaging [02:05] definitely merge it if lpi covers only cli [02:06] why wait until the end to teach how to use deb [02:06] lpi is aimed at sys admins [02:06] some basics about installing desktops [02:06] and stuff [02:06] even sysadmins should now gui [02:06] but not abouthow to use the desktop [02:06] they should be able to install & maintain it [02:07] that is about all lpi covers [02:07] hmm, i'll take a closer look at lpi [02:08] would there be any benefit in developing an additional part to an lpi certified course that just covers the ubuntu specific stuff [02:08] on the one hand [02:08] the seperate specific approach is shorter [02:08] but the merged approach is better for the learning curve [02:08] indeed [02:09] would the seperate approach create problems in the classroom [02:09] well, try to find some more opinions, i'd say go for the merged approach, but i'm not even part of the doc-team [02:09] you are now ;-) [02:10] intersting if you see yourself as not part of the team, what are you doing on the channel, you have been here for a few weeks now [02:10] not really [02:10] just like our company :-) [02:10] i'm here since only a few days [02:11] Ah, you want to contribute? [02:11] just for reading along with the doc team [02:11] i'm translating the ubuntu website [02:11] ok [02:11] in rosetta [02:11] www.ubuntulinux.nl is my dutch translation [02:11] no, i started before rosetta was operational [02:12] how you gonna manage the updates to that [02:12] well, not [02:12] Hmmm [02:12] i'll merge it with the official website when the infrastructure is there [02:13] and then how will people keep track of all the updates in all the languages? [02:13] but so far, i'm translating bits and pieces of the pages [02:13] wheew, hard work dude [02:13] froud, i have been told that there is no easy way yet to integrate it in the official site [02:13] so that's why i'm doing it this way [02:13] OK, you mean there is a way to move the translated text over [02:14] the engine behind my site is xml based, i can easily transform the content to any format needed [02:14] my concern is what happens when english pages change,how will translators keep track of all those changes [02:14] Hmmm XML, tell me more [02:14] what is the engine [02:15] right now i do it the hard way: once in a while i check the pages for changes [02:15] I c [02:15] home-made engine [02:15] very flexible [02:15] Do cyou have an engine for taking docbook and doing it [02:16] we need a round trip solution [02:16] www.kaarsemaker.net www.ubuntulinux.nl nuts.okkernoot.net/~dennis/uvasite are run by the same engine (with symlinks). Only config/template and content are different [02:16] ok [02:16] so the xml is valid to what dtd [02:16] no, it cannot take docbook [02:16] my own dtd [02:16] arrghh [02:16] sorry :) [02:17] no its ok [02:17] but it's pluggable, so i can 'easily' implement other DTD's [02:17] we are looking for a wayto round trip from wiki to docbook and back [02:17] ah ok [02:17] problem is it is easy to go docbook to moin [02:17] wiki == moinmoin? [02:17] not so easy the other way around [02:17] why not? [02:18] how to mark [02:18] wiki translates moin to html, why couldn't one be able to translate to docbook? [02:18] not so easy [02:18] (i have never used docbook by the way) [02:18] I have a solution [02:18] but it needs java [02:19] :| [02:19] authors editing in web based xml editor [02:19] relax ng [02:19] hmm [02:19] used lenya [02:19] lenya.apache.org [02:19] i must say that i'm not fond of java applets for editing [02:20] extended the bitflux editor to support docbook [02:20] slow though [02:20] I must find time to compile the dtd into a binary to make it faster [02:21] loading over 400 elements is not an option [02:21] ouch [02:21] indeed [02:21] well not ove rthe web [02:21] on my dsl it takes 4 minutes to load the editor and the dtd [02:21] not good [02:21] :| [02:22] perhaps if I make it a binary file then only the first load will be long [02:22] and subsequent sessions will be faster [02:22] yeah, but no one wants to wait 4 minutes for a wikipage. Not even once [02:22] providing that the user does not wipe the cache [02:22] and never trust caches :) [02:22] exactly [02:22] the other option is to get the binary installed [02:23] or to change the editor to look for an installed version of the dtd [02:23] but then everyone needs to install something to edit (or even watch?) the wiki [02:23] took the words from my mouth :-) [02:24] i don't see either of these plans working actually [02:24] the wiki needs to be easily accessible [02:24] or you'll scare people away [02:24] yeah, well if it was easy everyone would be doing it :-) [02:24] it's a nice problem though [02:24] so the option you need is moin2docbook [02:25] do you have a pointer to a docbook howto, i want to look into it [02:25] that works to a point [02:25] docbook.sf.net [02:25] moin2docbook is on the docbook wiki site [02:25] for which purpose do you need the docbook? [02:26] the docs we package with the distro [02:26] the ones you see under yelp are docbook [02:26] ahh, so the moin2docbook is a process that does not have to be extremely fast [02:27] problem with moin2docbook is that it is not able to do it consistantly [02:27] hmm [02:27] and so you have overhead [02:27] you must fix the resulting docbook [02:27] ouch [02:27] each time [02:28] that's why I look to edit the xml under the browser [02:28] is that a problem with the implementation, or a general unsolvable problem due to the fact that moin is not that structured? [02:28] the second one [02:28] hmm [02:28] the permutations are endless [02:28] eric raymond has some tools [02:28] have you ever looked at general rewriting languages like m4 or asf+sdf for doing this? [02:28] he also warns of this problem [02:28] no have you got some links [02:29] like you say, people want easy editing [02:29] but we want structure [02:30] the two are at opposite ends of the same stick [02:30] but the stick is dry and bringing them together will break the stick [02:30] that's why I go for editing xml under the browser [02:30] WYSIOO [02:30] what you see is one option [02:31] asf+sdf is a rewriting formalism that can be used for generalized parsing and rewriting, it's developed at the CWI (center for mathematics and computer science) in amsterdam, NL. I have some experience with it now, you can find it at: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/sen1/twiki/bin/view/SEN1/MetaEnvironment [02:32] m4 is the gnu macro stuff used in (oa) autoconf/automake: http://www.gnu.org/software/m4/ [02:32] Hmm, just reading hang on [02:37] from my experience with general rewriting, i know that these things should be solvable [02:37] yes, but code is consistant, moin is not :-) [02:37] it's just that it's guite an undertaking to write for instance an asf+sdf moin2docbook translator [02:38] yes [02:38] well, this can handle inconsistencies too [02:38] whew, it's a nice idea, but gee whizz [02:38] :) [02:38] if i'm in a geeky mood, i'll try playing with it [02:38] sure [02:39] let us know if you find a solution [02:39] Seveas, you put yourself up for op on #ubuntu at the next CC meeting? [02:39] yes Burgundavia [02:39] i'm DennisKaarsemaker [02:39] Seveas, ok, cheers === Liz [~Liz@fixed-203-87-81-158.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@83.160.7.26] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hno71 [~hno73@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.214.153] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-128-37.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:41] hi y'all === carthik__ [~carthik@user-0cej7av.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:51] hi, is there a quick guide on moin moin formatting anywhere? [11:51] yep [11:51] carthik__, on our wiki there is one [11:52] good place to start is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HelpOnEditing [11:52] that should link you to some other good stuff [11:52] mdke, thanks, I was looking to flesh out a few things on the FAQ page [11:52] which page is that? [11:53] mdke, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions [11:53] bad formatting [11:53] and I learnt a few things setting up my printer, so will flesh that section out a little [11:53] gosh that document sucks [11:54] best thing is to find a page directly on the topic you're interested in (such as the printer) [11:54] mdke, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MoinMoinMarkupExamples does not deal with un-wikified, or pre-formatted text [11:54] or make one ;) [11:54] mdke, there is no printer page [11:54] carthik, what do you mean by un-wikified or pre-formatted text? [11:54] and I need to paste code samples, that are pre-formatted [11:55] carthik, that is done using {{{ tags [11:55] then }}} [11:55] its on that page [11:55] oh crap that page has been heavily edited since i last used it [11:55] mdke, look for the section titled : How can I share my printer on my LAN? [11:55] carthik, tell you what, use this page instead [11:55] on the FAQ page [11:56] http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/MoinMoin [11:56] the formatting sucks, for the ... section. [11:57] carthik, ok forget about the first link i gave you, someone has ruined it, use the udu.wiki.ubuntu page [11:57] mdke, that site you linked to - does not allow me to view source [11:58] mdke, edit it, that is [11:58] no permissions, it says [11:58] you logged in? [11:58] mdke, you should really be using mediawiki - I would have jumped right in to help [11:58] carthik, not my decision [11:58] are you the guy who posted on the list recently? [11:58] mdke, I dont want to create an account at the UDU wiki now. [11:58] mdke, no I am not the guy [11:59] carthik, i think the accounts are twinned [11:59] hmm no maybe not [11:59] mdke, it is so difficult for a random newbie like me to edit a page, this does away with the benefit of a wiki, IMHO [11:59] we need better docs for the markup i suppose [12:00] should have locked down the HelpOnEditing page [12:00] carthik, we are moving wikis soon, hopefully the new one will be better organised [12:01] mdke, cool [12:01] carthik, still moin tho [12:01] mdke, I work almost full time at http://codex.wordpress.org which is a mediawiki wiki - life is much better without CamelCase [12:02] Try reading a phrase with 5 words, written in CamelCase, and you'll see the difficulty:) [12:02] mdke, thank you, you have been extremely helpful - please dont think I am dissing anything here :) [12:02] carthik, i understand your criticisms