[12:11] <Mithrandir> argh
[12:11] <Mithrandir> polyp icks.
[12:26] <mdz> good morning
[12:26] <crimsun> morning
[12:26] <Riddell> hello mdz 
[12:26] <Riddell> nice holiday mdz?
[12:28] <zul> hi mdz
[12:28] <tseng> welcome back, mdz
[12:29] <jammcq> hello mdz
[12:29] <mdz> Riddell: yes indeed
[12:30] <mdz> apart from a boatload of email, I am in good shape
[12:45] <fabbione> hey mdz
[12:49] <mjg59> fabbione: I have so much acpi crack for you
[12:51] <fabbione> ehheeh
[12:56] <robertj> ooh ooh acpi
[12:56] <robertj> hehe, when is the part of the show in which we give you root on our laptops and you test, fix, and commit changes upstream ;)
[12:57] <robertj> (or more realistically, LaptopMission could use a step-by step and check-off matrix
[01:21] <aquarius> I had a thought: it would be handy for people to be able to sign up to shipit and say "send me one CD every time there's a new release", so they stay up to date.
[01:21] <robertj> aquarius: it would be but it would also cost more
[01:21] <aquarius> Especially given the very nice "This is an Ubuntu CD; do you want to upgrade?" prompt you get when you put an Ubuntu CD in.
[01:21] <aquarius> But I don't know whether shipit is built for that sort of thing or more as the hub of a grassroots distribution network...
[01:22] <aquarius> robertj: ah, yeah, thought so.
[01:25] <lifeless> robertj: its meant to promote grassroots stuff - thats why we ship boxes of 10 ;)
[01:25] <lifeless> so that you give it to your friends. ..
[01:25] <robertj> lifeless: I do order 10 ;)
[01:25] <robertj> (still waiting)
[01:26] <lifeless> heh
[01:26] <lifeless> there are a lot of orders to fill
[01:26] <robertj> (no biggy)
[03:35] <AndyFitz> xfonts-utils  broken in hoary for everyone else ?
[03:35] <daniels> what's wrong with -utils?
[03:35] <bob2> breeeeeeeeeeeezy.
[03:36] <AndyFitz> breezy sorry
[03:36] <AndyFitz> oh man im sleepy lol
[03:37] <AndyFitz> daniels,  its just not cruising along and upgrading like everything else
[03:38] <AndyFitz> i'll go check whats holding it back.  something isnt provided yet
[03:38] <jdub> ha ha
[03:38] <jdub> http://www.whiprush.org/2005/05/were_our_own_wo.html
[03:38] <jdub> thom: ^
[03:38] <ajmitch> AndyFitz: expect fun with breezy
[03:39] <jdub> WAIT, I'LL BANG TWO ROCKS TOGETHER AND CALL IT SECURITY SUPPORT!
[03:39] <AndyFitz> ajmitch,  im a sucker for punishment. breaking and unbreaking is fun :-)
[03:40] <ajmitch> AndyFitz: yeah, I've just been playing the unbreak my X game
[03:40] <AndyFitz> ajmitch,  let me know how it goes for you.  i'll be doing that soon
[03:40] <ajmitch> well the X server still runs :)
[03:40] <KaiL> AndyFitz: telling that it to easy ;)
[03:41] <KaiL> is..
[03:41] <bob2> jesus
[03:41] <bob2> why on earth is the extension API changing a SECURITY UPDATE, anyway?
[03:42] <daniels> ajmitch: so, don't upgrade to xorg-common -15
[03:42] <daniels> or wherever it was that /usr/bin/X11 became a directory
[03:42] <AndyFitz> ajmitch,  you're an  important step ahead of me.   i'll get x to work once i sort out this xutils thing
[03:42] <daniels> Bad Things Happen
[03:42] <daniels> wait
[03:42] <ajmitch> daniels: far too late for that.. /usr/bin/X11 disappeared
[03:42] <daniels> AndyFitz: xutils, or xfonts-utils?
[03:42] <daniels> ajmitch: sweet
[03:42] <Amaranth> ajmitch: You got it to run? wow
[03:43] <ajmitch> a symlink got it back for now until things are shifted
[03:43] <AndyFitz> daniels,  nboth,  xutils is broken because xfonts-utils  isnt there to be upgraded also
[03:44] <Amaranth> ajmitch: What voodoo made it run? I've done the /usr/bin/X11 symlink
[03:44] <ajmitch> Amaranth: and updating the font paths in xorg.conf
[03:44] <ajmitch> fairly minor fixes
[03:44] <Amaranth> where are fonts at now?
[03:45] <Amaranth> maybe gdmflexiserver is just messed up, but i don't want to restart X to find out :)
[03:45] <ajmitch> I think it is
[03:45] <ajmitch> or Xnest is
[03:45] <ajmitch> ah, time to run to work :)
[03:45] <Amaranth> xnest worked fine for me
[03:47] <AndyFitz> so where are the fonts now?
[03:47] <AndyFitz> cya ajmitch
[03:47] <daniels> AndyFitz: oh, I see
[03:48] <daniels> elmo: xfonts-utils needs to be in main when it hits the archive
[03:53] <Amaranth> nothing like a nice hardlock to make you fix X
[03:53] <Amaranth> that was...fun
[03:54] <AndyFitz> lol
[03:55] <Amaranth> gdmflexiserver + Ctrl-F8 == dead
[03:55] <Amaranth> not going to try to reproduce :)
[03:56] <Amaranth> ok, i lied. I tried to reproduce but since X works now it didn't do anything.
[03:57] <AndyFitz> Amaranth, how did you get x to work.  what simlinks needed to be setup ?
[03:58] <Amaranth> ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/ /usr/bin/X11 is all i needed
[03:58] <jsgotangco> morning
[03:58] <Amaranth> plus i had to manually edit my xorg.conf because it was trying to use "Generic Mouse" and "Configured Mouse" but I only had the latter
[03:58] <Amaranth> the fonts thing wasn't an issue, the fonts seem to exist in both places for now
[03:59] <AndyFitz> radness.  okay thanks.  i'll have a go   brb
[04:05] <ghpolo> last dist-upgrade removed x-window-system ?
[04:06] <daniels> so don't do that
[04:06] <ghpolo> me ?
[04:06] <daniels> if a dist-upgrade wants to remove something that looks like it's essential, don't dist-upgrade
[04:07] <ghpolo> ah ok, it was with me ;p
[04:07] <tseng> daniels b0rk muh x0rgz
[04:07] <tseng> :'(
[04:20] <AndyFitz> g'day  again
[04:20] <tseng> hi andy
[04:21] <AndyFitz> tseng, how goes mate ?
[04:21] <tseng> good thanks
[04:23] <AndyFitz> ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/ /usr/bin/X11    didnt work.  i had to create /usr/bin/X11  why would this now change anything 
[04:23] <jdub> `anthony: really there?
[04:24] <AndyFitz> speaking from damn centericq again :-P,  im guessing it has nothing to do with my previous xfonts-utils /  xutils issue
[04:25] <daniels> nope, different issue
[04:26] <ghpolo> yes AndyFitz 
[04:26] <ghpolo> it changed several files
[04:26] <ghpolo> same here
[04:28] <AndyFitz> funky,  also X is not executable  but when i chmod 777 X it doesnt do anything
[04:28] <ghpolo> doing a simple ln worked for me
[04:29] <AndyFitz> ghpolo,  what ln did you create ?
[04:29] <ghpolo> ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin /usr/bin/X11
[04:30] <AndyFitz> ghpolo,  yeah thats been created
[04:30] <AndyFitz> bugger,  no idea why X isnt executable  or wanting to be
[04:30] <ghpolo> so strange
[04:30] <ghpolo> after I did X worked again normally
[04:30] <AndyFitz> the X is red in console  i have no idea what perm red is
[04:30] <ghpolo> it is broken link usually
[04:33] <AndyFitz> strange.  i tried again but the file exists
[04:33] <daniels> /etc/X11/X should be pointing to /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg
[04:33] <daniels> (for the time being)
[04:33] <ghpolo> it does here
[04:33] <ghpolo> is that X red ?
[04:33] <ghpolo> and Xorg exists ?
[04:33] <AndyFitz> ln: '/usr/bin/X11//bin':  file exists
[04:34] <ghpolo> that is wrong
[04:34] <ghpolo> it shouldnt create a file named bin
[04:35] <ghpolo> it should link the dir /usr/X11R6/bin as /usr/bin/X11
[04:36] <AndyFitz> daniels:  so 'ln -s /etc/X11/X /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg' ?
[04:36] <Amaranth> other way around?
[04:36] <ghpolo> other way
[04:36] <AndyFitz> ok thanks
[04:36] <ghpolo> anyways, what did you do to break your system so much ? ;p
[04:36] <ghpolo> im using the latest dist-upgrade as breezy
[04:37] <AndyFitz> file exists on that one too
[04:37] <ghpolo> what shows when you do ls -l /etc/X11/X ?
[04:37] <AndyFitz> ghpolo, yeah likewise mate
[04:38] <ghpolo> maybe you did something wrong trying to fix startx after last dist-upgrade and broke something
[04:38] <ghpolo> im not sure about what you did
[04:39] <AndyFitz> etc/X11/X in red  -> usr/bin/X11/Xorg
[04:39] <ghpolo> uh
[04:39] <ghpolo> that is a problem
[04:39] <ghpolo> what ls -l /usr/bin/X11/Xorg shows ?
[04:40] <ghpolo> red color is a broken link
[04:40] <ghpolo> meaning Xorg doesnt exist ;/
[04:40] <ghpolo> or is somehow pointing to wrong place
[04:40] <AndyFitz> i hadnt created any other simlinks asde from  'ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/ /usr/bin/X11'  and for that it required me to make the dir X11 in /usr/bin   i thought that was kinda odd
[04:41] <ghpolo> yes it is strange
[04:41] <ghpolo> maybe you had the directory X11 before ?
[04:41] <ghpolo> and then it tried to link /usr/bin/X11/bin ?
[04:42] <AndyFitz> xorg does exist    and yeah x has always been in /etc/X11/X
[04:43] <ghpolo> hmm
[04:43] <ghpolo> so you didnt do the last dist-upgrade ?
[04:43] <AndyFitz> this machines install has only existed since test1 of hoary so it wont have any Xf86 artifacts or anything
[04:43] <ghpolo> it removed x-window-system and x-window-system-core
[04:43] <AndyFitz> ghpolo,  i did do the  latest dist-upgrade
[04:43] <ghpolo> i did aswell
[04:43] <jdub> guys, just be careful with dist-upgrade - use -u and watch what it's doing
[04:44] <jdub> then you won't get into pickles like this
[04:44] <ghpolo> i believe you somehow forced a wrong link AndyFitz 
[04:44] <ghpolo> but im not totally sure
[04:44] <Amaranth> if you created an X11 dir in /usr/bin you're already off
[04:44] <AndyFitz> ghpolo, the only links created manually by myself have been pasted here
[04:45] <ghpolo> hmm
[04:45] <ghpolo> ls /usr/bin/X11 shows what ?
[04:45] <ghpolo> the same as /usr/X11R6/bin ?
[04:45] <Amaranth> X11 was supposed to be a symlink to the /usr/X11R6/bin dir
[04:45] <ghpolo> yes
[04:45] <ghpolo> but last dist-upgrade removed that
[04:45] <AndyFitz> jdub,  i'll watch it from now on obviously ;-) thanks
[04:45] <ghpolo> so i remade it
[04:46] <Amaranth> ghpolo: I know, I'm telling AndyFitz :)
[04:46] <ghpolo> no problem
[04:47] <AndyFitz> ghpolo  ls /usr/bun/X11 shows  a cyan 'bin'
[04:48] <ghpolo> ah
[04:48] <ghpolo> you did wrong link then ^^
[04:48] <ghpolo> you could remove this link at /usr/bin/X11/
[04:48] <ghpolo> then remove /usr/bin/X11
[04:48] <ghpolo> and try ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin /usr/bin/X11 again
[04:48] <AndyFitz> how do i remove the wrong link ?
[04:48] <ghpolo> rm link
[04:48] <Amaranth> rm
[04:49] <AndyFitz> so rm link /usr/bin/X11 ?
[04:49] <ghpolo> that is a directory i suppose
[04:49] <ghpolo> do rm /usr/bin/X11/bin
[04:49] <AndyFitz> or just rm the dir
[04:49] <ghpolo> rmdir /usr/bin/X11
[04:49] <ghpolo> then ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin /usr/bin/X11
[04:50] <AndyFitz> oh bugger,  directory not empty.  if i remove the contents will that damage the other side of the link ?
[04:50] <AndyFitz> i think it will
[04:50] <ghpolo> it wont
[04:50] <ghpolo> rm /usr/bin/X11/bin first
[04:50] <ghpolo> then rmdir /usr/bin/X11
[04:50] <AndyFitz> rmdir /usr/bin/X11  returns an error   : directory not empty
[04:51] <AndyFitz> ok cool
[04:51] <ogra> rm -r
[04:51] <ghpolo> wait
[04:51] <ghpolo> dont do rm -r
[04:51] <ghpolo> maybe you did something else
[04:51] <ghpolo> and it could damage
[04:51] <ghpolo> remove the link inside it and try rmdir if it doesnt work check what else is there
[04:52] <AndyFitz> ghpolo  i didnt
[04:52] <AndyFitz> i am pretty silly but not going to wipe the contents and hurt myself further.   i did the order you just pasted
[04:52] <ghpolo> ok then
[04:53] <ghpolo> did you create the correct link ?
[04:53] <AndyFitz> which link?  no i havent yet
[04:54] <ghpolo> did you rmdir /usr/bin/X11 yet ?
[04:54] <ghpolo> yet or already ?
[04:54] <ghpolo> my english is bad
[04:54] <AndyFitz> yes
[04:54] <ghpolo> so just do ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin /usr/bin/X11
[04:54] <AndyFitz> its gone without any grief, thank you
[04:55] <AndyFitz> done
[04:55] <ghpolo> nice
[04:55] <AndyFitz> am i also meant to create another link for xorg ?
[04:55] <ghpolo> everything should be right now
[04:56] <AndyFitz> sweet.  okay i'll check it out
[04:57] <AndyFitz> thanks ghpolo, cheers amaranth
[04:57] <ghpolo> no problem ^^
[04:57] <AndyFitz> i'll watch myself from now on :)
[05:38] <ghpolo> someone know a mail client or somehow did a plugin or filter to separate messages by threads ?
[05:41] <AndyFitz> font paths :-/  lol
[05:42] <AndyFitz> okay font paths need to be changed :-/
[05:42] <ghpolo> cant find fixed font ?
[05:43] <AndyFitz> USR/LIB/X11/FONTS/ ?
[05:43] <ghpolo> what is says ?
[05:43] <ghpolo> cant find fixed fonts ?
[05:43] <daniels> AndyFitz: change /usr/lib/X11/fonts references to /usr/share/X11/fonts
[05:45] <AndyFitz> daniels: ta mate.
[05:46] <AndyFitz> wootage!!!  
[05:47] <luis_> daniels: if I may ask, is there an ETA for packages that aren't busted? :)
[05:47] <AndyFitz> thanks heaps.  its crusing along gdm is up.  time to kill the console apps
[05:47] <daniels> luis_: the current packages are fine
[05:47] <daniels> luis_: it's just teaching you a lesson if you've decided to customise your config :P
[05:47] <luis_> hehe
[05:47] <jdub> http://www.cebit.com.au/images/logos/frontbanner.jpg
[05:47] <jdub> "no, that's why i made the mistake of getting plastic surgery - I AM NOT A MONSTER!!!"
[05:48] <luis_> ah, so if I haven't fucked with anything, I'm find?
[05:48] <luis_> fine?
[05:48] <daniels> luis_: sort of :P
[05:48] <jdub> luis_: when you're upgrading, just use 'apt-get upgrade -u'
[05:48] <jdub> luis_: and every now and then use dist-upgrade -u
[05:48] <jdub> luis_: this lets you track exactly what is going to be added/removed
[05:48] <jdub> and keeps you safe most of the time
[05:49] <jdub> except for when daniel mucks something up *in* a package :)
[05:49] <schweeb> lies!
[05:49] <schweeb> apt rules. IMO
[05:49] <ghpolo> i agree with luis_ 
[05:49] <jay> apt/dpkg are better than anything else that exists.  so if it sucks it sucks the least :)
[05:49] <luis_> no offense, but, like, the command line options, the fact that one can't install local packages, the other can, etc., etc.
[05:49] <luis_> I could go on for ever
[05:50] <jdub> synaptic doesn't buy you anything more than apt, it just makes it harder for you to see what's going on in your *devel branch* os :)
[05:50] <jay> luis_: somebody posted a script to the devel mailing list for integrating all the commands into one if that's your thing
[05:50] <schweeb> I was just about to mention that
[05:50] <jdub> luis_: those are pretty irrelevant in this instance
[05:50] <luis_> jdub: <shrug> it's *gasp* easy to use
[05:50] <jdub> try smart
[05:51] <jdub> luis_: easy to use isn't helpful when it doesn't stop you from too-easily breaking your system
[05:51] <jdub> you've probably clicked "smart upgrade, don't ask me again", too.
[05:51] <luis_> I have
[05:51] <luis_> and why 'stupid' (implicitly) is an option, I'm not sure
[05:51] <jdub> because the guy who chose the terms didn't learn english first
[05:52] <schweeb> apt/dpkg uses the cat/grep/head/tail etc... philosophy... small utilities with one duty that can be used in conjunction with each other
[05:52] <luis_> AFAICT, one is 'get the dependencies right', and the other is 'don't bother to get the dependencies right'
[05:52] <jdub> luis_: nup
[05:52] <jdub> luis_: dist-upgrade will add and remove willy-nilly to resolve an upgrade.
[05:53] <jdub> luis_: upgrade is more conservative.
[05:53] <jdub> i recommend using upgrade in the general case
[05:53] <jdub> (which is why the common occurance of "smart upgrade, don't ask me again" is so bad)
[05:53] <luis_> I always check what is being done before hitting OK in synaptic
[05:53] <luis_> I'm not braindead
[05:54] <luis_> else I'd have been screaming in here about my missing tomboy weeks ago :)
[05:54] <jdub> its the software's fault, not yours
[05:55] <luis_> don't worry
[05:55] <luis_> I place all the blame on the software :)
[05:55] <jdub> (but largely unrelated to facile problems with apt)
[05:55] <jdub> you're assuming i'm not, thus the point
 I have no particularly deeply held opinions about apt; I mean the infrastructure may or may not be in place to make a fine tool.
[05:56] <luis_> (the red-carpet team had strong opinions about that, but I don't really respect their judgment on the matter :)
[05:56] <luis_> but, yeah... apt-get/dpkg as a combo feel like a substantial step backward from the design/flexibility/usability of rug. It's really the only thing I miss right now from rh+ximian or suse+ximian.
[05:57] <justdave> Ubuntu Upgrade Manager does a normal upgrade
[05:57] <justdave> er, Update Manager, whatever it's called :)
[05:57] <justdave> and it prompts you to go use Synaptic if it'll break dependencies
[05:57] <justdave> (I had that happen to me the other day)
[05:58] <jdub> try smartpm
[06:00] <luis_> hrm
[06:00] <luis_> smart does, uh, not do what I want it to
[06:03] <jdub> smart needs config out of the box
[06:03] <daniels> warty still has security support, right?
[06:03] <jdub> daniels: absolutely
[06:04] <daniels> sweet
[06:04] <daniels> i was just doing my regular dist-upgrade on a fd.o box running warty and thought I should make quadruply sure :)
[06:06] <jdub> should gcc-3.3 still be in main?
[06:15] <mdz> jdub: it'll fall out when nothing build-depends on it anymore
[06:16] <jdub> ok
[06:29] <jdub> mdz: welcome back, btw :)
[06:29] <jdub> mdz: good break?
[06:57] <fabbione> morning
[06:58] <ajmitch> hi
[07:04] <jdub> can you put a pci card in a pci-e slot?
[07:04] <ghpolo> is someone able to compile xen-unstable using latest breezy upgrade ?
[07:05] <daniels> jdub: don't believe so
[07:06] <fabbione> daniels: how broken is X today?
[07:06] <crimsun> http://www.gen-x-pc.com/pci_basic.htm says "yes", jdub 
[07:06] <fabbione> daniels: meaning.. can i upgrade and still work or will i be doomed to death?
[07:06] <ghpolo> just some links to be done fabbione I believe
[07:06] <ghpolo> that is what I did
[07:07] <jdub> crimsun: hrm, rad :)
[07:07] <jdub> hrm
[07:07] <jdub> it says driver compatible
[07:07] <jdub> not seeing hardware compat
[07:07] <crimsun> about halfway down the page
[07:08] <crimsun> "PCI-Express slots will also accept older PCI cards, which will help them become popular more quickly than they would if everyone's PCI components were suddenly useless."
[07:08] <jdub> ahr, indeed
[07:08] <jdub> cool
[07:09] <jdub> was just looking at this:
[07:09] <jdub> http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SN25P.asp
[07:09] <jdub> looks very tasty
[07:10] <fabbione> oh yeah
[07:10] <fabbione> i have seen them in some shops here around
[07:13] <daniels> fabbione: don't know.  try it and see. ;)
[07:13] <daniels> fabbione: might need to change the /etc/X11/X symlink
[07:14] <tepsipakki> compare the pci/pci-e connectors.. no way to put a pci card on a pci-e slot ;)
[07:14] <fabbione> daniels: dselect output is scary.. i guess i will wait a bit and work in chroot :)
[07:19] <daniels> heh :)
[07:20] <daniels> tepsipakki: depends on how many lanes
[07:20] <daniels> it can physically fit in an x16, but not in an x1
[07:20] <jdub> oh
[07:21] <jdub> http://sys.us.shuttle.com/XP17.aspx
[07:21] <jdub> ^ that's nice too
[07:22] <daniels> elmo: any chance I can find out what B-Ds on a) libxp-dev, b) lesstif-dev?
[07:23] <tepsipakki> daniels: but the card would go in reversed (the short part of the connector is on the other end) ;)
[07:24] <tepsipakki> hmmh, actually isn't
[07:24] <tepsipakki> oh f.., it is
[07:24] <tepsipakki> wrong picture..
[08:18] <svenl> hi.
[08:18] <svenl> I was wondering what would be the best way to get a universe package rebuild ? 
[08:19] <daniels> you can't get rebuilds, only upload new source versions
[08:19] <daniels> and universe stuff -> #ubuntu-motu
[08:19] <daniels> they take care of all the unvierse packages
[08:19] <svenl> hardware-monitor, which i maintain for debian, seems broken in breezy.
[08:19] <svenl> Oh, 
[08:19] <svenl> YAC :/
[08:19] <svenl> i think freenode is refusing me to subscribe to so many channels :/
[08:20] <svenl> 08:15 [freenode]  -!- Cannot join to channel #ubuntu-motu (You have joined to too many channels)
[08:20] <svenl> oh well.
[08:20] <Amaranth> you can join it, just not all at once
[08:20] <Amaranth> it's to prevent bot floods, i think
[08:21] <svenl> Amaranth: yeah.
[08:21] <svenl> Amaranth: still doesn't help me, since i don't think one of the channels i have open now i can dispense with.
[08:22] <Amaranth> you should be able to join it now
[08:22] <Amaranth> it just doesn't let you join a whole crap load at once, iirc
[08:23] <svenl> Amaranth: not.
[08:23] <svenl> Amaranth: i only joined this ones, the other where joined since days.
[08:23] <svenl> but i am on the ppc devel channels, some debian ones, 4 ubuntu ones, and the pegasos support channels.
[08:24] <Amaranth> odd
[08:24] <Amaranth> i've been in about a dozen channels before
[08:24] <svenl> i think the barrier is beyond a dozen :)
[08:25] <svenl> ok, breakfast time.
[08:26] <bob2> 20 is the limit
[08:27] <AndyFitz> hrm ,  is anything happening to esd ?
[08:28] <Amaranth> i thought it got replaced by polypaudio
[08:28] <schweeb> no
[08:29] <schweeb> wasn't quite ready in time for hoary
[08:29] <schweeb> polyp got pulled about a month before release
[08:29] <schweeb> iirc
[08:43] <fabbione> hey pitti
[08:43] <pitti> Morning
[08:47] <AndyFitz> schweeb,  so whats happening between the two in breezy ?
[08:48] <Lathiat> is it just me or is ubuntu using dmix by default now
[08:48] <jdub> AndyFitz: potential to use polyp
[08:48] <jdub> Lathiat: ick, no
[08:48] <AndyFitz> I say this because the esd sound quality is atrocious in breezy 
[08:49] <Lathiat> (and its not working very well, although ive had it working fine, but i have no alsa config files)
[08:49] <Amaranth> i thought the plan for breezy was to use dmix when we could
[08:49] <schweeb> AndyFitz: esd sound quality is atrocious everywhere
[08:49] <svenl> daniels: the fonts are in /usr/share/X11/fonts, even with -12, is that as you would expect ? 
[08:49] <AndyFitz> lol  I agree schweeb   ,  only this time its outdone itself.    rhythmbox won't play without esd,  and its pouring out some really interesting sounds along with playback
[08:49] <schweeb> I seem to recall hearing recent stirrings of DMIX, but jdub would probably know better than I would
[08:50] <Amaranth> AndyFitz: Did you try telling gstreamer to use alsa?
[08:50] <schweeb> AndyFitz: RhythmBox uses gstreamer
[08:50] <jdub> schweeb: it's on the "to try" list for sound infrastructure spec
[08:50] <jdub> but it's spew
[08:50] <schweeb> AndyFitz: open the gst config tool, and switch from ESD to alsa
[08:50] <Amaranth> you'll have to restart rhythmbox
[08:51] <schweeb> jdub: I've had mixed results with it
[08:51] <schweeb> once when I set it up, all of my stuff played at like 1.25x speed
[08:51] <schweeb> heh
[08:51] <Amaranth> haha
[08:51] <luis_> danm
[08:51] <AndyFitz> rhythmbox won't play without esd running,      schweeb  yeah I can change that.  just don't know what mutated esd
[08:51] <luis_> oops, wrong chan
[08:52] <jdub> schweeb: mixed results, eh? that sounds like the optimal outcome. :-)
[08:52] <schweeb> you're punny :p
[08:52] <Micksa> anyone know of a program suitable for quickly browsing through multi-page tiff files?
[08:53] <jdub> Micksa: build the very latest evince
[08:53] <Amaranth> didn't support for tiff files get added to evince?
[08:53] <Treenaks> Micksa: evince
[08:53] <Amaranth> evince is becoming our Preview :)
[08:53] <Micksa> ta
[08:53] <jdub> Micksa: or wait for sebuild to get to it when he wakes up
[08:53] <schweeb> either that or gFaxView or whatever it's called (maybe)
[08:53] <jdub> Amaranth: only i've yet to convince jrb to integrate static image viewing too
[08:53] <Amaranth> sebuild, lmao
[08:54] <Micksa> is evince what that guy was showing off at the gnome miniconf at LCA?
[08:54] <Amaranth> Treenaks: It's only going to break more, but there is a simple way to make it work now. :)
[08:54] <Treenaks> Amaranth: there is? :)
[08:54] <Treenaks> Amaranth: apt pinning + hoary? :P
[08:54] <Amaranth> Treenaks: ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin /usr/bin/X11
[08:54] <jdub> Micksa: i don't believe anyone was showing off evince at gca.
[08:55] <Treenaks> Amaranth: yes, that was the easy part
[08:55] <Amaranth> Treenaks: then dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[08:55] <Treenaks> Amaranth: then it started whining about "fixed"
[08:55] <Amaranth> the fonts?
[08:55] <Treenaks> Amaranth: yes
[08:55] <Amaranth> hmm, my fonts are in /usr/share/X11/fonts and /usr/lib/X11/fonts, figure out which one you have and edit xorg to match
[08:55] <Treenaks> good idea :)
[08:55] <Amaranth> err, xorg.conf
[08:56] <Amaranth> i don't know why i have both, most people don't
[08:56] <Treenaks> Amaranth: I did see a "I didn't update xorg.conf because you fiddled with it" message when I was upgrading the other day
[08:56] <AndyFitz> amaranth, how do I instruct gstreamer to switch to alsa ?
[08:56] <Treenaks> AndyFitz: gstreamer-properties ?
[08:56] <AndyFitz> there are a few  gst gui tools  but none that appear to manage that 
[08:57] <Amaranth> System->Preferences->Multimedia Systems Selector
[08:57] <schweeb> should be in the control center
[08:57] <schweeb> ya
[08:57] <Amaranth> or gstreamer-properties, they're the same thing
[08:57] <AndyFitz> not in breezy,  gstreamer-properties   and  the control-center  shortcut are both missing 
[08:58] <Amaranth> i have them?
[08:58] <schweeb> as do I
[08:58] <AndyFitz> all gstreamer apps I have installed are prefixed with gst-
[08:58] <Amaranth> reinstall gnome-media
[08:59] <AndyFitz> ;)  looks like I can't  :      Depends: dbus-1 but it is not going to be installed    Depends: libhal0 but it is not going to be installed  Depends: libnautilus-burn1 but it is not going to be installed
[09:00] <Amaranth> *boggle*
[09:00] <AndyFitz> will always dist-upgrade -you from now on
[09:00] <AndyFitz> you = U  damn gaim autoreplace 
[09:01] <Amaranth> um, your system is screwed :)
[09:02] <AndyFitz> um  yeah.   all with one dist-upgrade 
[09:03] <Amaranth> did it remove a lot of things? :)
[09:03] <AndyFitz> she'll be right.  xmms  ... until this all blows over  lol 
[09:04] <AndyFitz> Amaranth,  enough things to worry about but not enough to  make my system keel over and die..    I'm sitting in the threshold of painful package migration
[09:04] <Treenaks> hmm... an empty dialog box saying "Xsession:" :)
[09:04] <Amaranth> ok, new idea :)
[09:04] <Lathiat> yeh i get that too
[09:05] <Amaranth> AndyFitz: load up gconf-editor, change /system/gstreamer/0.8/default/audiosink to alsasink
[09:06] <schweeb> fabbione: new xen just released, fyi
[09:06] <AndyFitz> Amaranth,  ah sweet  the gconf entry is still there.  all good now :)
[09:06] <AndyFitz> well,  the sound is all good lol
[09:06] <fabbione> schweeb: you want to tell Mithrandir and smurfix :)
[09:06] <Amaranth> the sad thing is that i knew that
[09:06] <fabbione> schweeb: i am not on Xen anymore
[09:07] <fabbione> they are
[09:07] <schweeb> ahh :)
[09:07] <fabbione> Xen 2.0.6 ?
[09:08] <fabbione> bah.. changelog points me to bitkeeper...
[09:08] <fabbione> how cool...
[09:08] <smurfix> They've got a few weeks to switch yet :-/
[09:09] <fabbione> hey smurfix 
[09:09] <Amaranth> fabbione: you could ust that tool to pull from bk repositories that caused the big flamefest :)
[09:09] <Amaranth> err, use
[09:10] <smurfix> fabbione: still nothing from the afterburning guys?
[09:10] <fabbione> Amaranth: i don't need to use bk when there are tarballs available
[09:10] <fabbione> smurfix: you and Mith were supposed to get in contact with them
[09:11] <fabbione> but i haven't heard anything from ben
[09:11] <smurfix> fabbione: neither have I
[09:11] <fabbione> did you try to mail him?
[09:11] <smurfix> last week
[09:11] <fabbione> ok
[09:11] <fabbione> well let's start working on xen than
[09:11] <fabbione> if they are not interested anymore.. it's not our problem :)
[09:13] <smurfix> I found their whitepaper and CVS repo online this weekend though
[09:13] <smurfix> so I'll start to look into it in the next few days
[09:13] <fabbione> for L4 or afterburner?
[09:14] <fabbione> because iirc they had afterburner in arch...
[09:14] <smurfix> afterburner and xen, says the download page
[09:14] <fabbione> uh ok
[09:14] <smurfix> haven't had time to actually look through it yet :-/
[09:18] <Mithrandir> smurfix: url?
[09:18] <smurfix> Mithrandir: http://l4ka.org/projects/virtualization/afterburn/download.php
[09:19] <smurfix> they want to patch binutils :-/
[09:19] <fabbione> oh jeee
[09:19] <smurfix> no L4 code that I can see
[09:19] <fabbione> L4 was on a separate url
[09:19] <Mithrandir> the l4 code is pistachio and marzipan
[09:20] <fabbione> yeah
[09:20] <smurfix> Mithrandir: ah, that makes sense
[09:21] <smurfix> Anyway I'll grab time this week to try and set things up here
[09:23] <Mithrandir> the cvs repo seems to be what we want, it's the xen wedge, the l4 wedge, the patches to linux.
[09:23] <Mithrandir> looks like we're just missing userspace support.
[09:25] <Amaranth> speaking of Xen, when CPUs support the Vanderpool extensions, does anyone know if it will be possible to run linux and windows at the same time?
[09:26] <fabbione> elmo: you awake?
[09:26] <fabbione> thom: ?
[09:30] <fabbione> pitti: i hunted down the problem with the kernel build/dpkg crap
[09:31] <fabbione> pitti: just be sure to get the latest kernel-package
[09:31] <fabbione> it's another side effect of dpkg
[09:34] <jdub> Amaranth: xen requires client os support
[09:34] <Amaranth> jdub: It won't with the Vanderpool CPU extensions, from what I've been told.
[09:41] <pitti> Hi carlos 
[09:41] <carlos> pitti, morning
[09:42] <carlos> pitti, do you think it's possible to recreate the translation tarballs for hoary again (as you did without using buildd)?
[09:42] <ajmitch> hi pitti 
[09:42] <pitti> carlos: well, it's a PITA, but I think so. Why?
[09:42] <carlos> pitti, so they get the .pot file regenerated 
[09:42] <pitti> ajmitch: hey, how are you?
[09:42] <ajmitch> pitti: I'm alright :)
[09:42] <pitti> carlos: I did not patch Hoary's cdbs
[09:42] <ajmitch> getting back into breezy stuff after a busy week
[09:43] <ajmitch> hi chmj 
[09:43] <chmj> hey andrew
[09:43] <carlos> pitti, we could use a nonofficial version with the patch, couldn't we?
[09:44] <pitti> carlos: well, if I get the required dchroot support from thom/elmo, that would work
[09:45] <ajmitch> bbl
[09:45] <carlos> pitti, will check with them and will tell you if it's possible, ok?
[09:45] <pitti> yes
[10:01] <batma8> anyone up at this hour
[10:01] <AndyFitz> batma8 yep
[10:03] <batma8> right on man
[10:03] <batma8> the guys in ubuntu try to help, but im still pretty lost
[10:03] <AndyFitz> yeah the big kids stay away until 6pm
[10:03] <batma8> i have an averatec 3250, and i cant get the wireless to work
[10:03] <AndyFitz> awake :)   GMT+10
[10:03] <batma8> its 2 am here
[10:03] <AndyFitz> is it on the supported list ?  do you have to use ndiswrapper ?
[10:04] <batma8> it is suported and i have ndiswrapper
[10:04] <batma8> but when i get it installed it said its an invalid driver
[10:04] <batma8> but i think its a location thing, not a driver thing
[10:04] <batma8> this is only my 2nd day in linux
[10:04] <batma8> so im still hella confused
[10:04] <Treenaks> confused? why?
[10:05] <batma8> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=9454
[10:05] <batma8> i follow that exactly
[10:05] <batma8> to a tee
[10:06] <batma8> and i get errors
[10:06] <batma8> not sucess
[10:06] <Treenaks> what's it with the forums.. have you followed the guide on the wiki? (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/)
[10:06] <batma8> yup
[10:06] <batma8> that is step 2
[10:06] <batma8> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Rt2500WirelessCardsHowTo
[10:07] <AndyFitz> are you sure its the correct inf ?  do you have the DLL as well ?
[10:07] <AndyFitz> keybuk was a ninja and set this up for me.  but I remember not having the right windows binaries.  inf and dll   
[10:07] <batma8> i do
[10:08] <batma8> then i get this 
[10:08] <batma8> sudo apt-get install build-essential linux-headers-$(uname -r)
[10:08] <batma8> and put it in my terminal
[10:08] <batma8> and it spits this out
[10:08] <batma8> build-essential is already the newest version.
[10:08] <batma8> linux-headers-2.6.10-5-386 is already the newest version.
[10:08] <batma8> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 18 not upgraded.
[10:08] <batma8> W: Couldn't stat source package list cdrom://Ubuntu 5.04 _Hoary Hedgehog_ - Release i386 (20050407) hoary/multiverse Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/Ubuntu%205.04%20%5fHoary%20Hedgehog%5f%20-%20Release%20i386%20(20050407)_dists_hoary_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)
[10:08] <pitti> Hi seb128 
[10:08] <batma8> W: You may want to run apt-get update to correct these problems
[10:08] <batma8> root@ubuntu:/home/batma8 #
[10:08] <Treenaks> batma8: you don't need that, ndiswrapper is included
[10:08] <seb128> hey pitti 
[10:08] <seb128> what's this flood?
[10:09] <Treenaks> seb128: #usersupport
[10:09] <seb128> not the right chan
[10:09] <Treenaks> true
[10:09] <batma8> i do apologize
[10:09] <batma8> but you guys have helped me more in 2 mins than all day in #ubuntu
[10:09] <batma8> :)
[10:09] <seb128> not a reason to turn this chan to a #ubuntu2 :)
[10:10] <seb128> :p
[10:11] <batma8> :)
[10:11] <batma8> point taken
[10:11] <batma8> i think i may have just made some progress
[10:12] <fabbione> Mithrandir, smurfix: xen 2.0.6 code seems to be more clean
[10:12] <fabbione> at least it doesn't fail on make ARCH=xen dep (2.4.30
[10:14] <smurfix> well, they want to get into the mainline kernel, they better have to get clean. ;-)
[10:14] <fabbione> ehhe
[10:26] <Thom_Holwerda> hi, is the topic correct? breezy still broken atm?
[10:26] <daniels> yes
[10:27] <Thom_Holwerda> any idea when the transtition is complete? probably difficult to say, aint it
[10:29] <daniels> quite, yeah
[10:29] <daniels> there's also some pretty awesome X-related breakage
[10:30] <Thom_Holwerda> well i broke my breezy ubuntu install by updating (missed the nottion about the transition) so i was wondering if it was done yet-- guess ill install hoary and just wait for the transition to be complete :)
[10:31] <Amaranth> yeah X-related breakages are nuts
[10:32] <Treenaks> daniels: yeah, they're annoying :)
[10:42] <Kamion> fabbione: I've uploaded partman-auto-lvm at last - heading towards Debian NEW at the moment
[10:43] <fabbione> Kamion: rocking!
[10:47] <fabbione> Kamion: i think in a relatively short time we should be able to seed 2.6.12 to main and if you feel ok we can start building d-i on top of it
[10:48] <fabbione> right now  i am blocked because i can't build on amd64/ppc
[11:22] <doko> morning all
[11:23] <hunger> hi doko
[11:23] <pitti> Moin doko
[11:23] <elmo> daniels: http://people.ubuntu.com/~james/paste/010.txt
[11:23] <elmo> daniels: http://people.ubuntu.com/~james/paste/011.txt
[11:23] <elmo> fabbione: ?
[11:24] <mvo> hey doko 
[11:24] <fabbione> hey elmo
[11:25] <fabbione> elmo: i need an update for breezy and breezy-i386 on concordia and breezy on davis, to get the latest dpkg and kernel-package
[11:25] <fabbione> (at least)
[11:25] <fabbione> a general update would be fine too :)
[11:32] <daniels> elmo: thanks dude
[11:32] <daniels> thom: ?
[11:36] <ogra> hmm, who did put the hint to disable esd on RestrictedFormats ? .... and backports are advertised there now too...
[11:36] <ogra> morning
[11:36] <mdke> morning ogra
[11:40] <daniels> whoops
[11:40] <daniels> infinity: so are you what passes fora  mozilla maintainer nowadays, or should I keep harassing thom?
[11:40] <daniels> ** mozilla has an unsatisfied build-dependency: libxp-dev
[11:40] <daniels> ** mozilla-firefox has an unsatisfied build-dependency: libxp-dev
[11:40] <daniels> ** mozilla-thunderbird has an unsatisfied build-dependency: libxp-dev
[11:40] <daniels> infinity: i would like for the above to not be an issue anymore
[11:41] <infinity> daniels : Bugging thom is always a good thing, just on principle, but I can look at those.
[11:41] <infinity> daniels : Are we allowed to upload CXX apps yet, though?
[11:42] <fabbione> you can upload, but they don't get autobuilded
[11:42] <daniels> infinity: probably not
[11:42] <infinity> fabbione : Well, yes, that's what I meant.. "Is there any point?"
[11:42] <ogra> infinity, check the dependencys in any case (do a pbuilder run or whatever)
[11:42] <daniels> hunger: 'whoops' -> i hit ctrl-shift-w instead of ctrl-w and didn't start irssi in screen, so it died
[11:42] <fabbione> infinity: no :)
[11:44] <infinity> daniels : While we're whining about things, why does the default xorg config use such ridiculously conservative timings?  1600x1200 at 60Hz really hurts.
[11:45] <hunger> infinity: I am using that setting... it is fine.
[11:45] <Mithrandir> infinity: get an LCD? :)
[11:45] <infinity> Mithrandir : A big CRT was a lot cheaper. :)
[11:46] <Mithrandir> infinity: true enough.
[11:46] <daniels> infinity: #14xx or something
[11:46] <elmo> fabbione: done
[11:46] <daniels> infinity: trawl my bug list for 'vbetool should use x86emu, subsume ddcprobe'; wasn't allowed to fix it for hoary
[11:48] <daniels> infinity: itmt, just nuke the ranges from xorg.conf altogether.  nv, although really stupid, is smart enough to work the ranges out for itself in this case.
[11:48] <Mithrandir> daniels: or just use hwinfo instead?
[11:48] <daniels> Mithrandir: well, need to properly check out hwinfo
[11:48] <infinity> daniels : Yeah, ISTR that both nv and nvidia could do so just fine, it was just a shock to have my initial config be kinda whacky.
[11:49] <daniels> Mithrandir: been too busy trying to stop you whining by fixing xorg to check out hwinfo :P
[11:49] <daniels> infinity: the downside of not having vm86
[11:49] <fabbione> elmo: thanks!
[11:49] <Mithrandir> daniels: :P
[11:50] <daniels>  * Read the info out of the 'SuSE=' entry in /proc/cmdline. It contains
[11:50] <daniels>  * (among others) info from the EDID record got by our syslinux extension.
[11:50] <daniels> WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
[11:50] <mjg59> They get the EDID in SYSLINUX?
[11:50] <mjg59> Christ
[11:51] <elmo> haha
[11:51] <mjg59> I guess it means they have working real mode...
[11:51] <infinity> That's pretty insane.
[11:52] <pitti> sjoerd: here?
[11:52] <daniels> mjg59: and pass it in through the kernel command line
[11:52] <daniels> mjg59: how awesome is that??
[11:52] <daniels> Mithrandir: thanks for the pointer, dude :P
[11:53] <hunger> I really do not understand why suse has such a following... people even stick with it even though it has screwed them several times in a row on upgrades.
[11:53] <mjg59> daniels: Well, otherwise they might have to extend the kernel bootloader protocol
[11:53] <Mithrandir> daniels: well, it works without the SuSE= entry too. :P
[11:53] <mjg59> daniels: Hang the fuck on
[11:54] <mjg59> daniels: Surely they're only using syslinux for the installer?
[11:54] <mdke> hunger, someone told me that suse is exceptional
[11:54] <hunger> mdke: exceptional what? stupid?
[11:54] <Mithrandir> mjg59: what do you think of my idea to get syslinux to use different config files based on cpuid?
[11:54] <mdke> hunger, just exceptional
[11:54] <mdke> hunger, means very good
[11:55] <mdke> haven't tried it myself tho
[11:55] <mjg59> Mithrandir: Hmm, hadn't seen that
[11:55] <hunger> mdke: It is exceptional in doing everything in its own way, ignoring the settings I put into the normal config files.
[11:56] <Mithrandir> mjg59: you want it for the tripleplay DVD.
[11:56] <hunger> mdke: If something breaks you need the exceptional suse training to fix stuff.
[11:57] <daniels> mjg59: god only knows
[11:57] <mjg59> Mithrandir: Nnf. Fun.
[11:57] <mdke> hunger, hmm
[11:58] <Mithrandir> mjg59: got any better ideas, really?
[12:02] <mjg59> infinity: If you want exciting features, then Nautilus isn't really the right program to be burning ISOs with...
[12:05] <HrdwrBoB> I find it very exciting
[12:07] <sjoerd> pitti: pong
[12:07] <pitti> sjoerd: nevermind, sorry for disturbing :-)
[12:07] <sjoerd> np
[12:09] <hunger> daniels: Could you please set the path in update-fonts-dirs for mkfontdir? Currently it fails since it does not find that programm in /usr/X11R6/bin.
[12:10] <hunger> daniels: Shall I write a bugreport?
[12:11] <daniels> hunger: no, because it's already fixed
[12:11] <hunger> daniels: Great, thanks!
[12:12] <daniels> upgrade to 6.8.2-12 of xfonts-*, which will pull in xfonts-utils
[12:12] <hunger> daniels: I did... that is when it failed.
[12:13] <hunger> daniels: mkfontsdir is installed, but it is not found by the update-script.
[12:13] <doko> daniels: you left a channel ;) what's the state of the xbase-clients dependency on xlibmesa-glu?
[12:13] <doko> thom: ping
[12:14] <daniels> doko: d'oh
[12:14] <daniels> doko: still in the middle of a test build
[12:16] <hunger> daniels: My path still points to /usr/bin/X11, I guess that is why the script fails for me.
[12:17] <daniels> hunger: your path for what?
[12:17] <hunger> daniels: $PATH of the root user.
[12:17] <doko> daniels: ok, does this build puts the X headers to /usr/include as well?
[12:18] <daniels> hunger: ok, I see
[12:18] <daniels> doko: no, and it won't
[12:18] <hunger> daniels: Same for the normal user...
[12:18] <daniels> doko: things are only moving to /usr once they've been modularised
[12:18] <daniels> doko: doing that within the monolithic tree a) is so WORLD OF HURT, b) would break nvidia/fglrx
[12:18] <daniels> as much as I despise binary-only drivers and wish they would die in the arse, we can't break them right now
[12:19] <daniels> hunger: fixed now, thanks
[12:20] <hunger> daniels: You are welcome.
[12:21] <hunger> daniels: Thanks for providing me with such a nice distro:-)
[12:21] <doko> daniels: a) only effects you ;-) b) doesn't hurt me, so go for it :)
[12:23] <pitti> trulux: your new kernel patch works great! However, I fixed another tyop
[12:23] <pitti> typo, even
[12:23] <ogra> heh
[12:24] <daniels> doko: no, it effects everyone, since I spend a week doing nothing else
[12:24] <daniels> s/effects/affects/
[12:33] <jsgotangco> bye bye
[12:35] <AndyFitz> holy new planetgnome
[12:35] <Lathiat_> yeh i like it
[12:35] <AndyFitz> likewise
[12:41] <AndyFitz> oh no I don't!!!!
[12:41] <AndyFitz> eww tables
[12:41] <tseng> AndyFitz: CSS SNOB!
[12:41] <ogra> doko, dpkg-architecture: warning: Unknown gcc system type amd64-linux, falling back to default (native compilation)
[12:42] <ogra> doko, is this wanted ?
[12:42] <ogra> i see it in all recent amd64 builds
[12:42] <ajmitch> hi ogra 
[12:42] <ogra> hey ajmitch 
[12:43] <AndyFitz> http://planet.gnome.org/  oh hells no
[12:43] <ajmitch> AndyFitz: lovely, innit? :)
[12:43] <AndyFitz> tseng, you are witnessing semantic molestation
[12:43] <AndyFitz> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fplanet.gnome.org%2F
[12:43] <tseng> oh..
[12:43] <tseng> its not xhtml
[12:44] <tseng> they should mark it as html4 then? i dont see anything thats a big deal
[12:44] <tseng> besides ALT
[12:44] <tseng> leaving out alt on a site that big is lame
[12:44] <AndyFitz> no its not valid html4.01 either
[12:44] <AndyFitz> thats what its marked as
[12:45] <tseng> 4.01 makes you close tags with /> ?
[12:45] <ajmitch> ogra: I'm finally back to the c++ transition stuff :)
[12:45] <AndyFitz> : there is no attribute "BACKGROUND"  anyway this isnt the room to winge
[12:45] <ogra> ajmitch, great
[12:45] <AndyFitz> yeah its a whore of a html page
[12:45] <ajmitch> ogra: who should I CC in the bug reports?
[12:45] <AndyFitz> it wants a piece of all doctypes.  it doesn't care where it gets its next fix
[12:46] <Lathiat_> hmm
[12:46] <ogra> ajmitch, me or doko
[12:46] <Lathiat_> looks like the w3 parser got confused
[12:46] <Lathiat_> (42th error for p.g.o)
[12:46] <ajmitch> ogra: ok, will do
[12:46] <tseng> AndyFitz: hah
[12:46] <tseng> wow
[12:46] <Lathiat_> oh, maybe not
[12:46] <ogra> ajmitch, but as long as you note it on the wikipage, there is no need for a cc
[12:46] <Lathiat_> you even need &amp; in HREFs... never knew that.
[12:46] <Treenaks> Lathiat_: /everywhere/
[12:47] <AndyFitz> ciao tseng
[12:47] <ogra> tseng, dont lt the php bugs bite you ;-P
[12:47] <ogra> let even
[12:47] <ajmitch> ogra: great, I'm slowly filling my my spots on the wiki page
[12:47] <ogra> great :)
[12:47] <ajmitch> although some diffs are far too large
[12:47] <ajmitch> silly build systems
[12:48] <doko> ogra: there's already a bug in bugzilla
[12:48] <ajmitch> hi doko 
[12:49] <doko> ajmitch: hi
[12:49] <ogra> doko, ah, ok
[12:51] <doko> ogra: there are currently many CXX libs in the bug reports, which are not yet uploaded. which ones do you take care of?
[12:51] <ogra> doko, i'll go through all motu claimed ones now...
[12:53] <doko> ogra: thanks
[01:06] <mvo> ping seb128 
[01:08] <seb128> mvo: pong
[01:27] <daniels> god the monolithic is a hulking piece of shit
[01:32] <ogra> hulking ? 
[01:32] <ogra> does that mean its green ?
[01:33] <daniels> hulking == big, heavy, ungraceful
[01:33] <daniels> also, stupid
[01:33] <ogra> heh
[01:33] <daniels> did I mention that I hate it?
[01:33] <Mithrandir> fix it, then
[01:33] <Mithrandir> (-:
[01:34] <daniels> the only way to fix it is to destroy it
[01:34] <daniels> and people keep distracting me from that by reporting these bug thingies
[01:34] <fabbione> at least the big green thing was working
[01:34] <daniels> the modular bits work
[01:34] <daniels> they just need a little bit of encouragement
[01:35] <fabbione> are they shy
[01:35] <fabbione> ?
[01:35] <daniels> a little, yeah
[01:35] <daniels> but when I fixed update-fonts-*, the build took under ten seconds
[01:35] <Mithrandir> for all of the modular bits?  Impressive.
[01:36] <daniels> just for xfonts-core
[01:36] <daniels> which has a debian/rules consisting of a bunch of install commands
[01:36] <Lathiat_> daniels: do you have the issue i have with keyboard shortcuts not working ?
[01:36] <daniels> Lathiat: no, because I haven't restarted my X server for myriad reasons
[01:36] <Lathiat> daniels: ah. :)
[01:36] <Lathiat> your smarter than me i guess :)
[01:37] <daniels> Lathiat: (i test by starting new X servers and checking it all looks alright, and I have way too many things open on both machines to restart gdm on either)
[01:37] <daniels> my guess would be that you'd need to link /usr/lib/X11/xkb -> /etc/X11/xkb, and /usr/bin/X11/setxkbmap -> /usr/X11R6/bin/setxkbmap
[01:37] <Lathiat> i dont have a /usr/lib/X11/xkb
[01:38] <daniels> oh yeah, and /usr/bin/X11/xkbcomp -> /usr/X11R6/bin/xkbcomp
[01:38] <daniels> right -- which is the problem
[01:38] <Lathiat> right, where do i find that?
[01:38] <daniels> you need to have one, which is a symlink to /etc/X11/xkb
[01:38] <Lathiat> oh right
[01:38] <daniels> sudo ln -s /etc/X11/xkb /usr/lib/X11/xkb
[01:38] <daniels> sudo ln -s /usr/bin/X11/setxkbmap /usr/X11R6/bin/setxkbmap
[01:38] <daniels> er
[01:38] <daniels> sudo ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/setxkbmap /usr/bin/X11/setxkbmap
[01:39] <Lathiat> ok i'll try that thanks, brb
[01:39] <daniels> sudo ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/xkbcomp /usr/bin/X11/xkbcomp
[01:39] <Mithrandir> daniels: I have no /usr/bin/X11 and I want to scream.
[01:39] <daniels> Mithrandir: so make one as a directory :P
[01:39] <fabbione> elmo: dpkg on concordia and davis is still the old one
[01:39] <pitti> seb128: just to confirm that I'm not completely dumb, you didn't upload the new gstreamer yet, did you?
[01:39] <daniels> that directory should just go the f**k away, to be blunt
[01:39] <elmo> fabbione: dpkg is blacklisted
[01:39] <fabbione> elmo: i tought that we did allow the new one to go in
[01:40] <fabbione> elmo: as doko said
[01:40] <elmo> no, no one's unblacklisted the apps yet
[01:40] <Kamion> elmo: I need a package which isn't in Ubuntu yet, but I need to make modifications to it for Ubuntu. Is it better to wait/ask for it to be synced into Ubuntu and then modify it, or just upload a modified version directly?
[01:40] <fabbione> elmo: i don't get it.. doko said that dpkg could go in, and i can't build with the old one
[01:40] <Lathiat> daniels: no luck
[01:40] <fabbione> s/old/broken
[01:41] <elmo> fabbione: doko talking doesn't magically unblock dpkg on 12 buildds
[01:41] <Lathiat> daniels: anything i can do to debug it?
[01:41] <fabbione> elmo: ok... i get it :)
[01:41] <daniels> Lathiat: /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[01:41] <elmo> fabbione: I thought/had hoped lamont would have updated the block list, but he apparently hasn't been around
[01:41] <seb128> pitti: nop, not yet, on my todo list for today
[01:41] <Lathiat> http://bur.st/~lathiat/Xorg.0.log
[01:41] <fabbione> elmo: he is VAC
[01:41] <jane_> can someone here edit/approve the PDASupport spec? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/PDASupport
[01:41] <pitti> seb128: ok, no worries, thanks
[01:41] <elmo> Kamion: hum, preferably the former, but the latters not disastrous as long as you're sure you use the debian source as your base
[01:42] <elmo> fabbione: yes, now, I mean thu/fri time
[01:42] <fabbione> elmo: yup....
[01:42] <Mithrandir> jane_: add it to colincharlesqueue? :)
[01:42] <Kamion> elmo: ok
[01:42] <jane_> Mithrandir: will do, but we actually want to push it through for approval asap
[01:42] <Mithrandir> jane_: uhm, it totally lacks a DraftSpec/EditedSpec thing?
[01:43] <jane_> Mithrandir: it is in Colin's queue
[01:43] <Mithrandir> jane_: I think you'll have to get mdz to review it?
[01:44] <Mithrandir> jane_: he's back from vacation now, so just putting it in his queue and notifying be email should work, I'd guess.
[01:44] <jane_> Mithrandir: ok I made it a draft spec... ITA about mdz, I was hoping to get someone at it sonner though ;)
[01:44] <jane_> Mithrandir: also mdz will be pretty swamped today
[01:44] <Mithrandir> jane_: Colin did approve specs at UDU, you could ask him if he can do it; Kamion?
[01:44] <Kamion> jane_: I'm looking at it now. What's the desperate hurry?
[01:45] <daniels> Lathiat: what happens when you do setxkbcomp -layout us -model pc104?
[01:45] <jane_> Kamion: well jsgotangco is chomping at the bit to get going on it
[01:45] <Kamion> jane_: he should just get on with it :)
[01:45] <fabbione> elmo: thanks for the updates anyway :) too bad i can't use them :/
[01:45] <jane_> Kamion: it's the only one he is lead on, I think he wants the nod from someone that his spec is on target
[01:45] <Lathiat> daniels: i have no setxkbcomp
[01:45] <Kamion> non-Canonical people whose time we don't schedule shouldn't feel blocked on doing useful stuff by bureaucracy
[01:46] <jane_> Kamion: I'll tell him to proceed then ;)
[01:46] <Kamion> (it looks like a reasonable spec though)
[01:46] <jane_> good
[01:46] <Lathiat> daniels: i have 'xkbcomp' in /etc/X11/xkb/xkbcomp
[01:47] <daniels> Lathiat: s/setxkbcomp/setxkbmap/g
[01:47] <Lathiat> thats all i can see
[01:47] <Lathiat> daniels: ah
[01:47] <Lathiat> daniels: returns fine
[01:47] <Lathiat> (no output)
[01:47] <daniels> hrm
[01:48] <daniels> so if you run xev now, does doing ctrl+w, alt+w, whatever, give you proper keysym names?
[01:48] <Lathiat> x-windowxutils is being kept back if that affects anythign
[01:48] <Lathiat> daniels: i get funny weird characters being printed
[01:49] <Lathiat> XLookupString gives 1 bytes: (12) ""
[01:49] <Lathiat> for example
[01:49] <Lathiat> keysym 0x72 (no name)
[01:49] <daniels> damnit.
[01:50] <Kamion> jane_: I've done some editing and bounced it back to him with one question; he should feel free to go ahead with the rest of it though
[01:51] <elmo> jane shouldn't be allowed to IRC without the 'w' suffix, it's too confusing
[01:52] <jane_> Kamion: great thanks
[01:52] <\sh>  /nick Tarzan
[01:52] <jane_> haha
[01:52] <\sh> couldn't resist ;)
[01:53] <Kamion> I'm sure she's never heard that one before even once
[01:54] <JaneW> yes that's was completely original ;)
[01:55] <JaneW> still, better than 'Jane the pain'
[01:55] <chmj> hmmm
[01:56] <zyga> does anybody know what is netconfig.h?
[01:57] <JaneW> \sh: just saw your hackergotchi pic :P
[01:58] <\sh> JaneW: (C) by ogra ,)
[01:58] <ogra> \mw makes the christians happy and uploads sword
[01:59] <ogra> oops
[02:03] <\sh> hehe...the world is really small...yesterday I had a phonecall from a old lycos europe colleague and he's working now for web.de/united internet...chief of security is another guy, who is working for serendipity php blog..so the circle is closed..funny relations
[02:06] <Treenaks> \sh: "internet land" in the netherlands is small as well :)
[02:06] <Treenaks> \sh: I've seen lots of people switch around between ISPs :)
[02:06] <Treenaks> \sh: (while working at one)
[02:11] <\sh> hmm..something got wrong now
[02:11] <pitti> crimsun: here?
[02:13] <daniels> elmo: could I please get the b-ds on lesstif2-dev, if it's not too much of a hassle?
[02:13] <elmo> where?
[02:13] <lamont> redland-bindings is missing a build-dep on whatever provides swig
[02:15] <daniels> elmo: or, rather, an answer to 'can we punt lesstif to universe?'
[02:15] <daniels> elmo: as a side-effect of desperately not wanting to have to support the security and logistical nightmare that is xprint
[02:16] <elmo> someone'd have to fix vim
[02:16] <elmo> and we'd have to be okay with dropping xpdf
[02:17] <elmo> but other than that, it's not used
[02:17] <AndyFitz> xpdf is no fun anyway
[02:18] <daniels> elmo: \o/
[02:18] <Treenaks> AndyFitz: not now we have evince
[02:18] <daniels> elmo: what the frig does vim do with xprint?  gvim?
[02:19] <elmo> daniels: err, I mean lesstif
[02:19] <elmo> not xprint
[02:19] <Mithrandir> daniels: it's probably just smoking crack.
[02:19] <Mithrandir> :)
[02:19] <mjg59> Oh rock lesstiff
[02:19] <AndyFitz> all OSS postscript/pdf renderers suck,    evince is the least-bad gui 
[02:19] <elmo> nothing's using xprint AFAICS
[02:19] <elmo> well from the current 'xprint' source package
[02:20] <daniels> elmo: right
[02:20] <daniels> Kamion: we can drop vim-lesstif, right?
[02:21] <Kamion> daniels: don't see why not
[02:22] <daniels> word
[02:22] <Kamion> daniels: it's already in universe
[02:22] <elmo> Kamion: yes, but source b-d's on lesstif
[02:22] <Kamion> yeah, I know
[02:22] <elmo> and we've tried to avoid just dropping things we don't want before
[02:23] <elmo> not sure, if it's worth bothering for something so old skool as lesstif tho
[02:23] <Kamion> sure, but we haven't always managed that
[02:23] <Kamion> c.f. kde
[02:23] <Kamion> in fact I'm not convinced we've tried very hard ;)
[02:23] <elmo> we did it for at least php
[02:23] <elmo> but yeah
[02:23] <Kamion> speaking of, can I have libqt-perl in main?
[02:23] <elmo> Kamion: it pulls in a bunch of crap
[02:23] <Kamion> it does?
[02:23] <Kamion> like what?
[02:24] <elmo>  o kdebindings: libsmokeqt-dev, libsmokeqt1
[02:24] <elmo>    [Reverse-Depends: libqt-perl] 
[02:24] <elmo>    [Reverse-Build-Depends: libqt-perl] 
[02:24] <Kamion> AFAICS it only depends on C libraries
[02:24] <elmo>  o libqt-perl: libqt-perl
[02:24] <elmo>    [Reverse-Build-Depends: debconf] 
[02:24] <Kamion> oh, build-depends
[02:24] <daniels> Kamion: php4-universe is defined as 'tried very hard', imo ;)
[02:25] <Kamion> elmo: kdebindings doesn't seem all that evil a thing to support
[02:25] <elmo> Kamion: ok, your call.  I only left it because it didn't fall comfortably into the 'obvious' rule and was pending approval from someone who can actually approve stuff (
[02:26] <daniels> Kamion: eeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[02:26] <Kamion> daniels: ?
[02:26] <daniels> Kamion: kdebindings is a horror freakshow
[02:26] <Kamion> daniels: how else do we get Qt bindings?
[02:26] <daniels> that's its only redeeming feature, is that it's the only thing
[02:27] <daniels> but the thing is utterly horrible, and almost entirely unused
[02:27] <Kamion> ok, I'll ask the Kubuntu guys
[02:27] <daniels> (which either explains why it's almost permanently broken, or is caused by that)
[02:27] <Riddell> Kamion: I'm all for as much of KDE in main as possible :)
[02:27] <daniels> i mean, if libqt-perl works, and you want to use that, then go ahead
[02:27] <daniels> but I would strongly recommend punting every single other bit of kdebindings to universe
[02:27] <Kamion> daniels: don't have a choice as far as debconf is concerned
[02:28] <Kamion> it's either that, or no KDE frontend
[02:28] <elmo> daniels: only the stuff mentioned gets pulled in
[02:28] <Kamion> not that the KDE frontend is particularly excellent, but
[02:28] <Riddell> kdebindings doesn't build ruby currently so as not to bring that into main
[02:28] <Kamion> Riddell: I mean have you had problems with kdebindings per security/supportability?
[02:28] <daniels> lamont: ping
[02:29] <Kamion> with particular regard to SMOKE
[02:29] <lamont> daniels: si?
[02:29] <daniels> lamont: unping
[02:29] <\sh> Kamion: concerning python bindings for qt and kde it's a mess
[02:29] <Riddell> Kamion: no security issues that I can ever remember, as daniels says it's not very much used
[02:29] <daniels> Riddell: (the irony being that ruby seems to be the only language that kde developers are interested in aside from C++)
[02:30] <Riddell> \sh: but they're not being built from kdebindings :)
[02:30] <Kamion> \sh: ok, python bindings not at issue here though
[02:30] <elmo> ogra: dude, could you use a real name in Changed-By too?
[02:30] <elmo> R. [  48: <hostmaster@grawert.]  Accepted stk 4.2.0-4ubuntu1 (source)
[02:30] <elmo> uploads from you look like that ATM
[02:30] <Riddell> daniels: yes
[02:30] <\sh> riddell: but they're inside ;) please delete them ;)
[02:31] <ogra> elmo, whoops ....
[02:31] <ogra> elmo, sorry for that
[02:31] <Riddell> \sh: I removed them from subdirs so they're not built now
[02:31] <daniels> \sh: if they're in universe and they aren't causing an FTBFS, it doesn't matter
[02:31] <daniels> right now the package isn't ftbfs and the only thing under discussion is the qt perl bindings
[02:32] <Riddell> actually it did fail to build on powerpc due to lack of memory
[02:32] <elmo> say what now?
[02:33] <elmo> Riddell: I kind of doubt it
[02:33] <elmo> the box has 2Gb real, 3Gb swap - I suspect it's a compiler bug
[02:34] <Riddell> Kamion: smoke is activly developed and supported so it should be fine in main, I havn't used it personally though
[02:34] <daniels> wtf?
[02:34] <daniels> Riddell: um, not even close
[02:34] <daniels> Riddell: it died in the arse due to numerous gcc4 problems
[02:35] <elmo> virtual memory exhausted: Cannot allocate memory
[02:35] <daniels> wait, I lie, sorry
[02:35] <daniels> misread
[02:35] <daniels> yeah, that's pretty awesome
[02:35] <Riddell> it's about a 9Meg file that's being compiled at -O2
[02:36] <cartman> Riddell: how much ram the box have?
[02:36] <daniels> cartman: 13:33 < elmo> the box has 2Gb real, 3Gb swap - I suspect it's a compiler bug
[02:36] <Riddell> cartman: "2Gb real, 3Gb swap" says elmo 
[02:36] <cartman> ewwww
[02:36] <cartman> oh yeah
[02:37] <daniels> it might be fixed in his binary driver (ugh) on his website
[02:37] <daniels> erk, ww
[02:37] <cartman> as this is on ppc, would it worth to try with apple's gcc?
[02:37] <Amaranth> apple's gcc would require OS X or darwin
[02:37] <Amaranth> seeing how this is a linux distro...
[02:38] <cartman> :/
[02:38] <cartman> Amaranth: I thought it just required a ppc cpu
[02:38] <Amaranth> plus apple's gcc is a fork from sometime before 4 was released
[02:38] <Kamion> I hadn't heard that Apple's gcc was all that excellent
[02:38] <cartman> i.e ppc only optimizations in code
[02:38] <cartman> Kamion: I heard it compiles better for ppc
[02:38] <cartman> at least for C/asm
[02:39] <Kamion> cartman: sounds like Apple-worshipping to me :)
[02:39] <cartman> Kamion: might be yeah :)
[02:39] <cartman> non-biased opinions on Apple producsts are hard to get
[02:40] <aj> i hadn't heard anything about apple's gcc being notable either
[02:40] <Amaranth> i heard it was the same as a pull from CVS on the day they forked plus Objective-C++ support
[02:41] <Kamion> considering that Apple folks seem to be active on gcc lists I'd imagine most applicable stuff gets merged back; gcc is complex enough that people don't want to fork all that far
[02:41] <jdub> apple's gcc is notable in that it's not remotely useful in this case :-)
[02:41] <cartman> yup
[02:41] <daniels> elmo: vim fixed
[02:42] <doko> the ObjC++ bits are merged in HEAD now
[02:42] <cartman> doko: for 4.1?
[02:42] <Amaranth> that's where HEAD is going, yeah
[02:42] <elmo> there's a whole bunch of stuff in their branch, but it's almost all darwin specific, from what I've seen, they do try to merge the non-specific parts
[02:43] <elmo> as kamion says, it makes their lifes easier
[02:43] <Amaranth> yeah, but they're still using a pre-release compiler on a released OS
[02:43] <elmo> Amaranth: meet doko, our gcc maintainer
[02:44] <doko> who does use released compilers anyway? 
[02:44] <daniels> Kamion: so, is it cool to punt xpdf?
[02:44] <Amaranth> hehe
[02:44] <elmo> xpdf's already scheduled for punting, FWIW, it just needs Approval
[02:44] <Kamion> 2005-04-11 19:19:03 GMT Matt Zimmerman <matt.zimmerman@canonical.com>   patch-1
[02:44] <Kamion>     Summary:
[02:44] <Amaranth> wow 20050522 but still called prerelease
[02:44] <Kamion>       Drop gnome-gv and xpdf in favour of evince
[02:44] <Kamion> that isn't approval?
[02:45] <elmo> Kamion: that works
[02:45] <Amaranth> doko: is that a prerelease of 4.0.1?
[02:45] <elmo> does evince handle pdf.gz yet?
[02:45] <doko> Amaranth: its gcc-4_0-branch CVS
[02:45] <daniels> elmo: did last I checked
[02:46] <Amaranth> doko: is that a yes then? :)
[02:46] <elmo> ok, it doesn't in hoary
[02:46] <daniels> elmo: hrm, ignore me; it must be ggv that supports it
[02:47] <Treenaks> has the right-click/open-terminal plugin for the new nautilus been packaged yet?
[02:47] <jdub> elmo: Unhandled MIME type: 'application/x-gzip'
[02:47] <elmo> jdub: teh suck
[02:48] <elmo> esp. since most pdf's under /usr/share/doc are compressed by default
[02:48] <jdub> elmo: fixable
[02:48] <elmo> jdub: sure, I wasn't saying it was a blocker, just whining
[02:48] <jdub> elmo: "weird debian use case" :-)
[02:48] <Mithrandir> jdub: doit! :)
[02:48] <elmo> jdub: s/debian/\&+ubuntu/ :p
[02:51] <crimsun> pitti: for a few minutes, yep. What's up?
[02:51] <elmo> Bug 11111 has been added to the database
[02:51] <elmo> BIDDIBIDDIBIDDIBIDDIBIDDIBIDDI
[02:52] <ogra> whoo
[02:52] <pitti> crimsun: alsa-libs 1.0.9 enables dmix for the first soundcard by default, that's fine. However, it doesn't for all other cards, do you know this issue?
[02:52] <pitti> whoo
[02:52] <pitti> only 31 bugs so far? :-)
[02:53] <daniels> elmo: dude, that's piddling compared to bug #666 on Malone
[02:53] <daniels> elmo: (which was, of course, Malone crashing)
[02:56] <crimsun> pitti: hmm, nope, but it's worth following up on mantis (https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/view_all_bug_page.php). This # is relevant: https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/view.php?id=1068
[02:57] <pitti> crimsun: okay, will do
[02:58] <lamont> seb128: cp: cannot stat `./debian/tmp/usr/share/control-center-2.0/icons': No such file or directory
[02:58] <lamont> control-center_1:2.11.2-0ubuntu1
[02:58] <jdub> `anthony: really there?
[02:58] <daniels> pitti: if only there was some sort of bug tracker that brought a bunch of upstream bug trackers together so you could do all your bug work from one central place
[02:59] <pitti> daniels: indeed, *that* would be cool
[02:59] <pitti> too bad that nobody is working on such a thing... 
[03:00] <pitti> Amaranth: ever heard "Malone"?
[03:00] <daniels> Amaranth: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/
[03:00] <Treenaks> The force is strong in this one
[03:00] <jdub> Treenaks: *chuckle*
[03:00] <Amaranth> oh, that thing
[03:00] <Amaranth> you guys need web design help :D
[03:01] <seb128> lamont: k, thanks
[03:16] <hunger> daniels: The new xfonts-debs install fine for me now. thanks!
[03:16] <daniels> no worries
[03:17] <Lathiat> go the dell diagnostic partition updater
[03:17] <Lathiat> it ran, chunked for a while, only to point out i didnt have a diagnostic partition (which I knew) but it ate the start of my hard drive anyway
[03:20] <Treenaks> ouch
[03:23] <Amaranth> MOM posts bugs in bugzilla?
[03:24] <daniels> yes
[03:24] <elmo> (Damn scott.  so many your mum jokes)
[03:24] <Amaranth> pretty cool, but spooky
[03:24] <daniels> and he didn't even do it right
[03:24] <Amaranth> until it said it was the merge-o-matic i thought a real person filed the bugreport :)
[03:24] <daniels> it should've been merge-uh-matic
[03:25] <daniels> A#@$(*&@#$OIU$#@)(*
[03:25] <Amaranth> american english vs australian english, round 1
[03:26] <JaneW> Does Ubuntu come out in an enterprise/server version at all?
[03:26] <Kamion> you think Scott speaks American English?
[03:26] <Mithrandir> JaneW: no
[03:26] <daniels> Amaranth: (er, mum was UK English long before it was Australian English)
[03:26] <Amaranth> i know, but you're in AUS, right?
[03:26] <Mithrandir> JaneW: there's just Ubuntu, no separate server version.
[03:27] <sladen> mmmm, waffles.
[03:27] <jdub> JaneW: stick in the CD, boot with 'server' :-)
[03:27] <Kamion> JaneW: we may certify a version for longer-term "enterprise" support at some point
[03:27] <Kamion> but it'll be fundamentally the same thing
[03:27] <daniels> Amaranth: correct
[03:27] <sladen> 1.  Stick it in the CD drive.  2.  type 'enterprise'.   3.  Feel Good(tm)
[03:27] <daniels> sladen: so, uhm, possibly a stupid question, but do you have anything new on usplash?
[03:28] <sladen> daniels: nope.  I've been taking a narrowboat on the canal with a bunch of kids this weekend
[03:29] <daniels> cool
[03:32] <JaneW> thanks for the responses, I'll relay the message
[03:32] <elmo> did we really add an 'enterprise' alias?
[03:33] <elmo> and I still can't get over you guys not using 'phat base' for the new seed :(
[03:34] <daniels> heh.  we're now up to 191075 lines of patches, of which 166684 are either removing files in other modules, or stolen from HEAD
[03:34] <chmj> phat base ?
[03:35] <Amaranth> daniels: you're patching 6.8.2? i thought the X stuff was from HEAD
[03:35] <Kamion> elmo: no, we didn't
[03:35] <daniels> Amaranth: all the new stuff is coming from HEAD; new tarballs are just too painful
[03:36] <Amaranth> ah
[03:36] <daniels> and we still have too many patches to be tracking a moving target like HEAD
[03:36] <Amaranth> daniels: doing all of this will make things easier in the long run, right?
[03:36] <dilinger> ew
[03:37] <dilinger> Xu disabled hyperthreading in kernels by default, in a security fix?
[03:37] <pitti> dilinger: yes
[03:37] <elmo> dilinger: seems reasonable?
[03:37] <pitti> dilinger: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/usn/usn-131-1
[03:38] <Amaranth> hyperthreading is crack anyway
[03:38] <Kamion> having read the paper, fixing HT sounds kind of non-trivial
[03:40] <dilinger> Kamion: having read the paper, it didn't seem like the sort of thing the kernel should be attempting to fix.  then again, I haven't read the followup thread on lkml yet
[03:40] <Kamion> uh ... the paper explicitly advised that kernels work around the issue until chip vendors sorted it out
[03:41] <Kamion> since it's not like you can hot-upgrade your CPU
[03:41] <Kamion> which didn't seem like an unreasonable position to take
[03:41] <Kamion> I mean, the alternative is that everybody rewrite their crypto libraries to be entirely immune to timing attacks, which is no small endeavour and not always obviously correct anyway
[03:41] <mjg59> Kamion: Currently, the only real way of working around it seems to be to disable hyperthreading
[03:42] <Kamion> mjg59: exactly
[03:42] <mjg59> Which is a kernel command-line argument
[03:42] <mjg59> So disabling it by default seems excessive
[03:42] <elmo> why?
[03:42] <elmo> we don't default-to-off for other security patches?
[03:43] <mjg59> Oh. Is "Disable by default" equivilent to "Provide new option to enable"?
[03:43] <Amaranth> the people who know there is a kernel command line are the ones who would be thinking about reenabling it, not those disabling it for security reasons
[03:43] <Kamion> mjg59: yes
[03:43] <Amaranth> yeah, you can use ht=on to enable it
[03:43] <elmo> You can manually
[03:43] <elmo> enable HyperThreading again by passing the kernel parameter "ht=on" at
[03:43] <Kamion> mjg59: well, it's now default ht=off and you can type ht=on
[03:43] <elmo> boot. (CAN-2005-0109) 
[03:43] <pitti> Kamion: it's not just timing attacks
[03:43] <mjg59> Ah, yes
[03:44] <pitti> Kamion: a process can watch another process while they are on the same CPU at the same time
[03:44] <dilinger> i just don't like security updates that change behavior like that.  i guess if it's unavoidable..
[03:44] <mjg59> dilinger: If the changed behaviour is documented, it's less of an issue
[03:44] <elmo> I wish it had been ready before I ran round 30+ machines disabling HT in the BIOS :P
[03:44] <mjg59> Especially if it's the only real solution...
[03:50] <elmo> Kamion: why does man still look in /usr/local/man ?
[03:50] <Kamion> elmo: why shouldn't it?
[03:51] <elmo> wouldn't /usr/local/share/man make more sense?
[03:51] <Kamion> it looks there too
[03:51] <Kamion> /usr/local/man's there for legacy support
[03:51] <elmo> shiri 14:51 ~ % manpath
[03:51] <elmo> /usr/share/man:/usr/local/man:/usr/X11R6/man
[03:51] <elmo> ?
[03:52] <Kamion> oh, it's computing that from $PATH
[03:52] <daniels> daniels@catsby:~% manpath
[03:52] <daniels> /usr/local/man:/usr/local/share/man:/usr/share/man:/usr/X11R6/man:/usr/man
[03:52] <Kamion> daniels: you've set that by hand, I think
[03:52] <daniels> Kamion: not that I'm aware of
[03:52] <Kamion> daniels: echo $MANPATH # ?
[03:53] <Kamion> elmo: I think that's a bug - it doesn't seem to be handling multi-valued MANPATH_MAP entries
[03:53] <daniels> er
[03:53] <seb128> jdub: about your g-s-t mail, not sure if that's a good idea. We have turned some of the option because they break stuff like rcn.d entries
[03:53] <daniels> Kamion: /usr/local/man is in MANDATORY_MANPATH, /usr/local/share/man isn't
[03:53] <daniels> Kamion: it's blank, and not set in ~/.zshrc or anything
[03:53] <Kamion> hah, that wouldn't help
[03:53] <Kamion> /usr/local/share/man is kind of crack though
[03:53] <jdub> seb128: can we have that package for the ones that aren't broken?
[03:54] <Kamion> I mean, nobody has /usr/local/share/bin that I'm aware of
[03:54] <seb128> jdub: is there any reason to not include these one with the default package?
[03:54] <Kamion> the FHS just went share-happy
[03:55] <seb128> jdub: we can ship all of them during the unstable time and decide of which ones to keep on the freeze?
[03:55] <Treenaks> Kamion: Share and Enjoy!
[03:55] <Kamion> elmo: ah. I bet /usr/local/share/man doesn't actually exist on your system
[03:55] <Kamion> but it exists on daniels'
[03:55] <Kamion> path directory /usr/local/bin is in the config file
[03:55] <Kamion> adding /usr/local/man to manpath
[03:55] <Kamion> manpath: warning: /usr/local/share/man: No such file or directory
[03:57] <elmo> Kamion: ah, you're right, it doesn't
[03:57] <elmo> should base-files and/or man-db create it if it doesn't?
[03:58] <Kamion>   * Added /srv, /media and /usr/local/share/man (Closes: #230909).
[03:58] <Kamion>   * Added /usr/local/man as a symlink to /usr/local/share/man,
[03:58] <Kamion>     since FHS says both directories should be "synonymous".
[03:58] <Kamion> (base-files 3.0.13)
[03:58] <Kamion> it only does that on initial install though
[03:58] <jdub> seb128: ok :)
[03:58] <elmo> oh, right, and this is some use-to-be-debian ancientness
[03:59] <Kamion> my general opinion is that /usr/local/share/man is an FHS mistake though; I'm not all that concerned about propagating it further than I have to
[04:04] <`anthony> jdub: yes
[04:09] <maswan> jdub, jbailey: maswan-ping?
[04:13] <jdub> maswan: pong
[04:13] <seb128> elmo: any way to get the gnome-control-center build-deps on concordia?
[04:13] <jdub> `anthony: aha, give me a minute - going to be about?
[04:16] <`anthony> yeah, for about another 1/2 hour
[04:16] <`anthony> doing a bunch of shtoom/dbus hacking...
[04:16] <elmo> seb128: done
[04:17] <seb128> thanks
[04:17] <`anthony> currently writing a new UI layer for shtoom - dbus. the phone itself has no UI at all, other applications can call it to do stuff and get signals back when stuff happens.
[04:17] <jdub> elmo: planet update please :)
[04:17] <jdub> `anthony: you're inhaling again.
[04:17] <elmo> -       <style type="text/css" media="screen"> @import url(file:///home/jdub/src/planet/ubuntu/www/planet-ubuntu.css);</style>
[04:17] <elmo> +       <style type="text/css" media="screen"> @import url(planet-ubuntu.css);</style>
[04:17] <elmo> giggle
[04:18] <elmo> done
[04:18] <jdub> :-)
[04:18] <daniels> jdub: WORSHIP DBUS
[04:18] <pitti> daniels: DBUS SUCKS
[04:19] <jdub> daniels: so i had this problem with garbage collection at my apartment. i solved it with D-BUS.
[04:19] <pitti> daniels: I have tried for ages now to get a dialog into gnome-volume-manager, but dbus completely messes that up
[04:19] <jdub> also, it helped me catch fish when i was stuck on a desert island
[04:19] <daniels> jdub: word
[04:19] <daniels> jdub: preach it!
[04:19] <`anthony> I use it to club small defenseless animals to death.
[04:19] <daniels> pitti: hm?
[04:20] <`anthony> Although something like omniorb has a more satisfying weight for dealing with anything larger than a fox.
[04:20] <KaiL_> hmm, the updated kernel in hoary breaks the restricted modules!
[04:20] <KaiL_> fabbione: ping?
[04:21] <daniels> KaiL_: er?  which updated kernel?  and how?
[04:21] <KaiL_> the 2.6.10-34.1
[04:21] <jdthood> In Canada we kill baby seals with hakapiks.
[04:22] <`anthony> jdthood: good thing too, otherwise we'd be overrun with the little bastards. I mean, look at the squid. Fuckers are everywhere now.
[04:22] <GheRivero> res people
[04:22] <KaiL_> daniels: so linux-restrivted-modules-2.6.10 must be recompiled ASAP
[04:22] <KaiL_> restricted...
[04:23] <KaiL_> even better remove the new image from the update archives instandly
[04:24] <daniels> KaiL_: why?  what's actually wrong?
[04:24] <daniels> did it change the ABI, or what?
[04:24] <KaiL_> yes
[04:24] <daniels> did it bump all the numbers to -6, or?
[04:24] <Kamion> 15:23 < KaiL_> even better remove the new image from the update archives instandly
[04:24] <Kamion> eh?
[04:25] <Kamion> security updates > restricted modules
[04:25] <daniels> right
[04:25] <daniels> and stuff never gets removed from archives
[04:25] <daniels> KaiL_: can you describe *how* it breaks the ABI?  what fails to work?
[04:25] <KaiL_> daniels: nvidia driver
[04:26] <KaiL_> see #nvidia, jd101 there
[04:26] <daniels> i'd rather not join yet another channel
[04:26] <KaiL_> Kamion: there's nowhere an updated restricted modules?!
[04:26] <`anthony> which reminds me - should I log bugs against the nv driver against ubuntu, or fd.o ?
[04:27] <daniels> `anthony: fd.o, preferably
[04:27] <daniels> saves me the effort :)
[04:27] <Kamion> KaiL_: you're missing the point - security updates are more important than restricted modules, so "remove the new image" would be the wrong answer no matter what
[04:27] <KaiL_> Kamion: oh, being unable to have an X-Server is unimportant?
[04:27] <`anthony> daniels: righto
[04:27] <Kamion> KaiL_: *less* important than a security update
[04:27] <daniels> KaiL_: less important than not being rooted
[04:28] <KaiL_> daniels: wrong. 
[04:28] <daniels> fabbione: apparently -34.1 caused an ABI bump, please investigate
[04:28] <KaiL_> you can't be rootet, if you have no working system any more :)
[04:28] <daniels> KaiL_: dude, hate to break it to you, but security trumps everything.  doubly so in the kernel.
[04:28] <`anthony> KaiL_: You can always use the nv driver until the nvidia driver is fixed.
[04:28] <KaiL_> it's not for me
[04:28] <`anthony> Plus, then you get stuff like sane ACPI
[04:28] <daniels> alternately, if you don't care about the security holes in the kernel, just downgrade for the time being
[04:30] <`anthony> KaiL_: Then suggest to whoever is having the problem that they switch to nv until the module is recompiled.
[04:30] <KaiL_> you understand, that everybody, who updates his kernel this morning and has any of these modules running (very many will have nvidia, not that much less fglrx) will have a console after reboot, yes?
[04:30] <daniels> not necessarily everybody
[04:30] <daniels> given that the udpates are tested by people who verify if the ABI stays the same or not
[04:30] <daniels> so obviously it only triggers in some cases
[04:30] <`anthony> KaiL_: is it possible the people with the problem are running their own compiled version of nvidia drivers?
[04:31] <KaiL_> let's hope, they are tested...
[04:31] <KaiL_> `anthony: he didn't even know, how to install the driver from nvidia
[04:31] <Kamion> KaiL_: we're not saying "it won't be fixed", we're saying "relax"
[04:31] <daniels> KaiL_: of course they're tested
[04:31] <`anthony> If it _is_ broken, I'd expect it'll get fixed pretty quickly
[04:31] <KaiL_> which btw *should* not matter technically...
[04:32] <`anthony> KaiL_: Er, except that the nvidia driver code is truly heinous. If someone's grabbed the latest and "greatest" version, who knows what evil crap is in the driver.
[04:32] <KaiL_> `anthony: we still have the "latest and greatest version" :)
[04:35] <`anthony> KaiL_: In any case, suggest for now he just edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and replace 'nvidia' with 'nv'. 
[04:35] <`anthony> You lose GLX, but *shrug* you get a working X
[04:35] <KaiL_> `anthony: that's the easy one. Now for the WLAN please :)
[04:35] <KaiL_> and the winmodems :)
[04:36] <KaiL_> ...I don't know, what else breaks
[04:36] <`anthony> KaiL_: then downgrade ;)
[04:36] <Kamion> are there verified reports of those breaking?
[04:36] <`anthony> and wait for the compiling machine that is fabbione to fix ;)
[04:36] <KaiL_> Kamion: not yet, and I hope it's really only nvidia
[04:37] <KaiL_> which is bad enough, but that people *should* at least know, how to fix it
[04:37] <Kamion> KaiL_: then please stop "The Sky Is Falling!", thanks :-)
[04:38] <KaiL_> Kamion: you remember the laugh about MS, as one of their patches broke LAN in some silly, uncommon situations?
[04:38] <`anthony> Kamion: "The Sky Is No Longer Rendered In Beautiful 3D, But Hey, Night (Suspend) Works Now!"
[04:38] <daniels> `anthony: haha
[04:39] <Kamion> KaiL_: if true, it's not the first time a patch broke ABI by mistake, and it probably won't be the last. the sky is still not falling.
[04:39] <Kamion> we've fixed these things pretty quickly in the past, when people aren't screaming at us. :)
[04:41] <ogra> `anthony, lol
[04:44] <zul> Kamion: fix it now fix it now....aiiiiieee
[04:45] <KaiL_> Kamion: maybe the restricted modules should be bound to EXACTLY one linux-image
[04:46] <Kamion> KaiL_: it's appropriate for them to depend on an ABI, the way they do now.
[04:46] <seb128> daniels: any idea on http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/config.log ?
[04:47] <mjg59> KaiL_: If the kernel has broken it, then the dmesg command will contain errors from the nvidia module
[04:47] <seb128> daniels: that's gnome-control-center not beeing happy, seems to be due to the new xorg
[04:47] <jdub> mdz: permission to add python-beautifulsoup to desktop seed?
[04:47] <mjg59> KaiL_: If those errors can be put somewhere, we can check what's happened
[04:47] <jdub> mdz: recommended by `anthony 
[04:47] <seb128> daniels: search for Xrandr.h on the log
[04:48] <seb128> daniels: and the packages for these headers are installed
[04:49] <KaiL_> jd101: see what mjg59  is asking for.....
[04:50] <jd101> KaiL_: I typed dmesg. big list. what exactly am I looking for in the list?
[04:51] <daniels> gcc -o conftest -g -O2 -Wall  -Wl,-O1 -Wl,--as-needed conftest.c -lXrandr -lXrandr -lXrender  -lSM -lICE  -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lX11
[04:51] <mjg59> jd101: If you could redirect that to a file and put it somewhere, that would be helpful
[04:51] <daniels> seb128: ^^ needs -I/usr/X11R6/include
[04:53] <seb128> daniels: that's new?
[04:54] <daniels> seb128: newish, yes
[04:54] <seb128> k, because that builds fine on my box
[04:54] <seb128> but I've not upgraded to the broken xorg versions :)
[04:55] <daniels> heh
[04:55] <daniels> they're not broken
[04:55] <daniels> just ... different
[04:55] <seb128> daniels: the -I/usr/X11R6/include should not automagically come from the autotools or other pkg-config?
[04:55] <seb128> daniels: keyboard is broken according to pitti, dholbach and bugzilla :)
[04:56] <daniels> seb128: it should come from autotools, but doesn't because parts of it are in /usr/include/X11 and parts are in /usr/X11R6/include/X11
[04:56] <jd101> I'll be back in a minute
[04:56] <daniels> seb128: if you don't need the g-c-c upload within the next few days, you could just wait until it works again when I upload libx11 separately
[04:56] <seb128> ok, thanks
[04:56] <seb128> I'll do an ugly Makefile.in change for now so :p
[04:57] <seb128> hum
[04:57] <seb128> configure change rather
[04:57] <daniels> or just build with CFLAGS="-I/usr/X11R6/include"
[04:57] <daniels> or --with-x-includes=/usr/X11R6/include
[04:57] <seb128> right
[04:57] <seb128> thanks daniels :)
[04:57] <daniels> np
[04:57] <daniels> (and yeah, keyboard is broken, that one's a little harder to debug)
[04:58] <mvo> AndyFitz: do you have some cool ideas about the tray icon for update-notifier? various people seem to be unhappy with the current one (e.g. #11080)
[04:58] <dredg> is linux-image-2.6.10-5-k7 (todays) in hoary boned?
[04:59] <daniels> dredg: in terms of linux-restricted-modules?
[04:59] <dredg> daniels: in terms of when i install it i get:
[04:59] <dredg> cpio: (0xffffe000): No such file or directory
[04:59] <dredg> cpio:   /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb7feb000): No such file or directory
[04:59] <daniels> awesome
[05:00] <dredg> a reboot deads it with a panic
[05:00] <mjg59> That's, uh, special
[05:00] <daniels> jbailey: mkinitrd stuffed? ^^
[05:00] <mjg59> dredg: Your install is plain Hoary?
[05:00] <AndyFitz> mvo,   its symbolically fine but the shape isnt unique enough for it as a tray icon.  
[05:00] <dredg> mjg59: pretty much
[05:00] <lamont> Kamion: how usable is the current breezy debootstrap?
[05:00] <lamont> that is, is the package list current?
[05:01] <mjg59> dredg: Nothing from Breezy?
[05:01] <ogra> dredg, what does retty much mean ?
[05:01] <ogra> pretty even
[05:01] <AndyFitz> id like to work on it .  mvo,  whats the pixmaps directory ?
[05:01] <fabbione> hey lamont
[05:01] <lamont> morning fabbione 
[05:01] <dredg> i tend to backport anything i want from breezy for this machine
[05:01] <daniels> dredg: ok, the answer there is 'don't do that'
[05:01] <daniels> jbailey: nevermind
[05:01] <mjg59> dredg: Uhm. There's the possibility that something is broken on your system, then.
[05:01] <mjg59> Nobody else has reported that failure yet...
[05:02] <mvo> AndyFitz: that would rock (please also have a look at the bugnumber I send you, it raises a interessting point). the icon is at /usr/share/pixmaps/update-icon.png
[05:02] <daniels> haha
[05:02] <daniels> so, speaking of keyboard problems, this just landed in bugzilla:
[05:02] <daniels> i have this kind of problem... in fact, my "shift" key doesn't seem to work
[05:02] <daniels> (sorry, no uppercase in this post)
[05:02] <AndyFitz> mvo,  can you give me a url pointing to the bug report instead of the number ? 
[05:02] <AndyFitz> I havent used malone before
[05:03] <AndyFitz> assuming thats where it is ?
[05:03] <mjg59> daniels: How did they manage quotes?
[05:03] <mvo> AndyFitz: sure, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11080 (I sometimes forget that not everyone has the bugzilla open all day :P)
[05:03] <dredg> mjg59: yeah, i accept that possibility. *shrug*
[05:04] <daniels> mjg59: who knows
[05:07] <Kamion> lamont: I think it'll break due to aptitude vs. C++ at the moment
[05:08] <lamont> Kamion: ok.  aptitude is currently dying because libsigc++-1.2 doesn't like g++4.0
[05:10] <jd101> mjg59: I saved the contents of dmesg
[05:12] <mvo> lamont: what apt is used for the build?
[05:12] <mvo> (for the build of aptitude that is)
[05:13] <lamont> apt is the one outside the chroot --> hoary
[05:13] <mjg59> jd101: Is it possible for you to put them on a website somewhere?
[05:13] <bob2> fabbione: buildd's are running!
[05:13] <lamont> the aptitude build failure is strhash.h:31: error: an explicit specialization must be preceded by 'template <>'
[05:13] <jd101> mjg59: http://rapidshare.de/files/1933868/aaaa.html
[05:13] <lamont> and I take back what I said about libsigc++1.2
[05:13] <fabbione> bob2: and??????
[05:15] <mjg59> jd101: Ok, that looks absolutely fine
[05:15] <lamont> fabbione: bob2 is clearly developing a case of turrets. :-)
[05:15] <elmo> tourets too
[05:15] <jd101> mjg59: but that's after i changes "nvidia" to "nv" and restarted
[05:16] <elmo> tourette too too
[05:16] <mjg59> jd101: Did you remove the nvidia module from /etc/modules ?
[05:16] <fabbione> lamont: whatever.. people should stop smoking my crack!
[05:16] <mvo> lamont: I have a patch for that, I can do a new upload. what apt do you build against? 0.6.35ubuntu2?
[05:16] <mjg59> jd101: It looks like it never tries to load the nvidia module. That should have nothing to do with a kernel upgrade.
[05:16] <bob2> cannons and port, two of my favourite things
[05:17] <jd101> mjg59: I # it
[05:17] <mjg59> jd101: Ah. Please run sudo modprobe nvidia and then put up the contents of dmesg
[05:18] <lamont> Selecting previously deselected package libapt-pkg-dev.
[05:18] <lamont> Unpacking libapt-pkg-dev (from .../libapt-pkg-dev_0.6.35ubuntu2_i386.deb) ...
[05:18] <Kamion> daniels: so will imake start automatically installing files in /usr/bin/ soon?
[05:18] <Kamion> W: groff: packages-installs-file-to-usr-x11r6 usr/X11R6/bin/gxditview
[05:18] <lamont> elmo: speeling disease names never was my strong suit.
[05:19] <mvo> lamont: thanks. I would like to upload a new version of apt, but I would like to wait for mdz on that. do you think we could wait with the building of aptitude/synaptic until then (I suppose he comes back today)?
[05:20] <daniels> lamont: oh my god, hideous
[05:20] <daniels> s/lamont/Kamion/
[05:20] <daniels> Kamion: probably eventually, but not before the server gets modularised.  which might well be a while.
[05:21] <daniels> Kamion: (i didn't attempt to timeline it, only 'some time before august')
[05:22] <Kamion> I'm wondering whether I should bother moving it by hand
[05:22] <Kamion> or whether there's a way to override ProjectRoot
[05:22] <daniels> #undef ProjectRoot
[05:22] <daniels> #define ProjectRoot /usr
[05:22] <daniels> honestly can't speak as to whether this will break shit badly, though
[05:23] <Kamion> maybe I'll just mv stuff in debian/rules
[05:23] <daniels> easiest that way, yeah
[05:49] <bod> elmo: did you get a chance to see how dak copes with W&P format source archives?
[05:50] <elmo> bod: no, not yet.  gar should have done it on the weekend
[05:53] <mdke> mako, ping
[05:55] <bod> elmo: no great hurry, just following up
[05:58] <mako> mdke: hey dude
[05:59] <mdke> ooh awesome
[05:59] <mdke> hi mako
[05:59] <Simira> morning!
[05:59] <mdke> mako, just sent you my second attempt at a signed CC
[05:59] <Simira> mako: are you updating the CC-agenda for tomorrows meeting?
[05:59] <mdz> mvo: new version of apt?
[06:00] <fabbione> hey mdz
[06:00] <mdz> morning
[06:00] <mvo> mdz: hey mdz. welcome back :) I send you a mail about the new apt
[06:01] <\sh> python-apt?
[06:01] <mako> Simira: yeah.. gonna work on that in the next couple hours
[06:02] <mdz> mvo: mail...:-o
[06:02] <mvo> mdz: how many do you have ;) ?
[06:02] <mvo> mdz: just filter for my name :P
[06:15] <pitti> Hey mdz! Welcome back
[06:16] <seb128> hi mdz
[06:18] <pitti> argh
[06:19] <pitti> $ sudo cfdisk /dev/sda
[06:19] <pitti> Segmentation fault
[06:19] <pitti> this shouldn't happen...
[06:21] <seb128> pitti: utch
[06:22] <Lathiat> pitti: owwww
[06:22] <fabbione> yeah i have seen it a couple of days back
[06:22] <fabbione> forgot to check why
[06:23] <fabbione> pitti: fdisk works
[06:23] <pitti> ... and I just formatted the stick
[06:23] <pitti> fabbione: yeah, I used fdisk
[06:23] <seb128> mvo, pitti: you may want to subscribe to http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs :)
[06:23] <seb128> (probably some other too)
[06:24] <pitti> not more mails... *whine*
[06:25] <seb128> pitti: better than ubuntu-bugs :p
[06:25] <pitti> yeah, right
[06:25] <fabbione> or gtk-bugs
[06:36] <eruin> anyone tested today's install-cd already?
[06:36] <pitti> mvo: I know the difference between my usb stick and my camera (wrt. g-v-m dialog/dbus wreckage)
[06:36] <mvo> pitti: tell me!
[06:36] <pitti> mvo: the camera is just one device, but my usb stick has two partitions
[06:36] <pitti> mvo: I reformatted my stick to have just one (encrypted) partition, and now it works
[06:37] <pitti> mvo: so after the partition is detected, there simply are no further dbus messages
[06:37] <pitti> mvo: however, that explains why it works with the camera, but doesn't solve the dbus bug, of course
[06:38] <Lathiat> yeh i noticed with g-v-m
[06:38] <Lathiat> i have a usb stick which has an emulated floppy
[06:38] <Lathiat> and then the usb stick part
[06:38] <Lathiat> and only the floppy bit ever mounts
[06:39] <pitti> Lathiat: no, that should work (it does for me at least)
[06:39] <Lathiat> i'll try again
[06:39] <Lathiat> might have been fixed
[06:39] <pitti> Lathiat: I currently try to introduce a dialog which asks for an encryption passphrase
[06:39] <Lathiat> pitti: ah, thatd be sweet
[06:40] <pitti> Lathiat: but while the dialog runs, gtk_main_loop() is called, which triggers dbus functions, which never return and use up 100% CPU
[06:42] <`anthony> pitti: You should use the twisted dbus bindings, then you don't have to worry about this crap ;)
[06:42] <pitti> `anthony: ENOPYTHON
[06:42] <`anthony> pitti: *grin*
[06:43] <ogra> pitti, get more CPUs then 2 CPUs = 50% 4 CPUs = 25% ;)
[06:43] <pitti> ogra: 50% of what?
[06:43] <Lathiat> ogra: haha
[06:43] <pitti> ah, I see, sorry
[06:43] <ogra> *g*
[06:43] <pitti> I think I rather get 4 daniels to fix dbus
[06:43] <ogra> poor pitty, everyone is fooling him today :)
[06:44] <ogra> comforts even
[06:44] <pitti> *sniff* thanks ogra, I love you too
[06:44] <ogra> :)
[06:44] <mdz> where did helvetica go while I was away: -adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--*-120-*-*-*-*-*-*
[06:45] <daniels> mdz: *cough*
[06:45] <ogra> mdz, new paths ;)
[06:45] <ogra> mdz, hi btw :)
[06:45] <daniels> mdz: sed -i /etc/X11/xorg -e s#/usr/lib/X11#/usr/share/X11#;
[06:45] <daniels> pitti: not my fault!
[06:45] <daniels> mdz: need to fix a couple of other packages before I can add a symlink
[06:46] <Lathiat> daniels: http://bur.st/~lathiat/ubuntu-dbus-doc-suggests.patch
[06:46] <mdz> daniels: thanks
[06:46] <mdz> er
[06:47] <mdz> mizar:[/etc/X11]  grep lib/X11 xorg.conf
[06:47] <mdz> zsh: exit 1     grep lib/X11 xorg.conf
[06:47] <mdz> all my FontPaths say /usr/share/X11
[06:47] <mdz> but I don't have a /usr/share/X11
[06:47] <mdz> should I do the reverse instead?
[06:47] <daniels> mdz: upgrade xfonts-* to 6.8.2-12
[06:47] <daniels> Lathiat: yeah, I saw that, dbus is sort of on the backburner at the moment
[06:47] <Lathiat> daniels: ok
[06:47] <daniels> mdz: (out of curiousity, what app do you have that still uses core fonts?)
[06:48] <mdz> daniels: gnucash (universe)
[06:48] <daniels> ah
[06:48] <ogra> hmm, gtk1
[06:49] <mdz> daniels: you know that x-window-system-core is currently uninstallable, right?
[06:49] <Lathiat> and xbase-clients
[06:49] <daniels> mdz: yes, that's why I'm still awake
[06:49] <Lathiat> heh
[06:52] <mdz> daniels: gotcha, thanks for the quick fix
[06:53] <daniels> mdz: no worries
[07:01] <fabbione> mdz: did you have nice holidays?
[07:02] <doko> Keybuk, could we revert the change to *_GNU_TYPE and *_GNU_OS until Debian introduces dpkg-1.3?
[07:02] <Keybuk> if you're going to do that, you may as well just use 1.10
[07:02] <Kamion> meh, let's not flip-flop please
[07:03] <mdz> fabbione: yes, excellent
[07:03] <fabbione> mdz: nice :)
[07:03] <mdz> daniels: btw, it's perfectly ok to leave that broken in the name of sleep; these are early days and breakage is a given
[07:03] <Kamion> doko: we're going to have to deal with it eventually anyway, and we're almost certainly going to have to deal with it faster than some Debian maintainers do
[07:03] <daniels> mdz: in dh_shlibdeps now, so I'll see if these don't work and go fro mthere
[07:04] <doko> Kamion: I don't care about the packages that fail to build, but the ones that wrongly build
[07:05] <elmo> doko: I still don't see why we can't grep for DEB_* ?
[07:06] <elmo> hum, I wish zsh had timestamped history
[07:06] <Kamion> doko: yes, and my point stands I think
[07:06] <doko> elmo: we can, please do ;-)
[07:06] <ogra_d> elmo, patches welcome :-P
[07:06] <elmo> doko: dude, I'm not the one whining about breakage
[07:06] <`anthony> elmo: fc -dl
[07:06] <elmo> and I'll do your grepping, just as soon as you help deal with some of my sysadmin stuff
[07:07] <doko> give me 5 minutes, finishing C++ first
[07:08] <elmo> `anthony: dude.
[07:09] <`anthony> elmo: zsh has _everything_. You just gotta find the right magic option.
[07:09] <Kamion> argh. hello, Colin, average of X and Y is (X+Y)/2, not (Y-X)/2
[07:10] <daniels> Kamion: interesting maths
[07:10] <Kamion> er, I should say "mean", too
[07:11] <Kamion> but now I have an option "Resize SCSI1 (0,0,0), partition #1 (sda1) and use freed space"
[07:12] <elmo> kick ass
[07:12] <daniels> nice
[07:13] <Kamion> and I really wish I got a useful progress bar while resizing ext3
[07:19] <lamont> doko/seb128: dasher needs xorg love
[07:20] <trulux> pitti: heya
[07:20] <pitti> Hi trulux 
[07:20] <lamont> seb128: gksu looks like it needs some s/linux/linux-gnu/ love?
[07:20] <trulux> pitti: hey, yesterday I was talking to ajmitch and organizing some stuff. how's krsec working? 
[07:21] <pitti> trulux: your patch works
[07:21] <pitti> trulux: however, fabbione had some reservations with applying it since it is very intrusive
[07:21] <pitti> trulux: did you submit this upstream?
[07:21] <thom> mdz: having hardware issues, or is this a long term annoyance (verbose hotplug in recovery mode)
[07:21] <pitti> trulux: I think for upstream inclusion the patch is fine
[07:22] <pitti> trulux: but it isn't that nice to introduce distro-specific sysctls, I was told
[07:22] <mdz> thom: we regularly see this type of report from users, and it's tricky to debug because we can't tell which module is being loaded
[07:22] <trulux> pitti: I hadn't, though I had some feedback with akpm but not related to the patch itself
[07:22] <mdz> thom: I was reminded to file the bug due to dealing personally with a user experiencing such a problem
[07:22] <thom> mdz: nod. ah, right
[07:22] <trulux> pitti: that's because I pointed at vsecurity
[07:22] <trulux> pitti: you just choose the hard way ;)
[07:23] <pitti> trulux: I showed the patch to fabbione, he has to think about it
[07:23] <trulux> pitti: vsec? it's not patch, we can maintain separate deb packages for the module, really
[07:24] <pitti> trulux: it *might* be necessary to prepare another (lighter) patch without the sysctls, but otherwise it is fine
[07:24] <trulux> pitti: and most important...
[07:24] <trulux> pitti: I'm porting cap_over to it, so, we won't need suid binaries anymore
[07:24] <trulux> pitti: a very basic binary-policy-based access control with capabilities
[07:25] <trulux> pitti: well, using sysfs is a solution, but really, having vsec makes the effort no worth
[07:25] <pitti> trulux: no, not sysfs
[07:26] <trulux> pitti: vsec uses sysfs for a few things, though it also uses an internal sysctl for the policy stuff (cap_over)
[07:26] <trulux> pitti: sysctl is going to be deprecated
[07:27] <trulux> pitti: there are better interfaces
[07:27] <pitti> trulux: what about dropping the sysctls for now?
[07:27] <pitti> trulux: you can still enable/disable the stuff at boottime, but the patch would get lighter
[07:28] <pitti> trulux: (sorry for the mess)
[07:28] <trulux> pitti: I'll prepare a separate patch for that
[07:28] <trulux> pitti: no worries
[07:28] <trulux> pitti: I just try to get you all thinking in the right way, and that way means modularizing our stuff
[07:28] <trulux> we are not upstream, so, modularizing makes work easier, faster...
[07:29] <pitti> yeah, indeed
[07:30] <trulux> pitti: I'm working now on finsihing the next 0.3 release, with the guy that managed the OpenPaX project
[07:31] <Kamion> daniels: xorg.dsc still seems to mention libxau* and libxdmcp*
[07:33] <daniels> WQ#@$OIJ@#$@#$
[07:33] <Kamion> I guess they're still in debian/control?
[07:33] <daniels> good catch, thanks
[07:38] <fabbione> daniels: stop playing with X and give us back the monolitich tree :P
[07:39] <daniels> i just uploaded the monolithic tree twice in like five minutes
[07:39] <daniels> based on that, it's getting mroe attention than anything else ever :P
[07:41] <fabbione> i can see that :)
[07:42] <fabbione> daniels: but it's not an issue.. X is ccached.. it takes only around 2 hours to build :)
[07:51] <Amaranth> seb128: ping?
[07:51] <trulux> pitti: finished
[07:51] <trulux> pitti: it's pretty small patch now
[07:52] <seb128> Amaranth: ?
[07:52] <seb128> why people don't say why they ping?
[07:53] <Amaranth> seb128: was wondering if you could look into packaging pyxdg 0.11
[07:53] <Amaranth> seb128: sorry, will next time
[07:53] <seb128> I'll after dinner
[07:53] <Amaranth> no rush
[07:53] <seb128> was just going right now
[07:53] <Amaranth> thanks
[07:53] <seb128> np
[08:00] <thesaltydog> I have a question concerning runlevels and sysv
[08:01] <thesaltydog> I need to discuss runlevel and sysv policy in ubuntu
[08:04] <thesaltydog> I need to discuss runlevel and sysv policy in ubuntu, to tune my application.
[08:05] <trukulo> thesaltydog: what's your application?
[08:06] <thesaltydog> trukulo, Ubuntu Bootup Manager
[08:06] <trukulo> thesaltydog: similar to initng?
[08:06] <trukulo> or grub?
[08:07] <thesaltydog> no, it is a graphic tool to manage runlevels/priorities/etc... http://www.marzocca.net/linux/ubm.html
[08:07] <trukulo> thesaltydog: same as rcconf?
[08:07] <trukulo> well, similar, not same
[08:08] <thesaltydog> rcconf has been the first step for the development.
[08:08] <trukulo> umm, not very intuitive
[08:08] <thesaltydog> sorry?
[08:09] <trukulo> it seems not very intuitive to users, very cryptic (for novices)
[08:09] <trukulo> just my opinion
[08:09] <Lathiat> I think the idea is great but the interface could be much simpler
[08:09] <thesaltydog> maybe. But novices has also to learn. Anyway, my question is just in this direction..
[08:10] <thesaltydog> Is it stated somewhere that ubuntu's Runlevel 3-4-5 are the same as RL2??
[08:10] <trulux> pitti: there?
[08:10] <Amaranth> seb128: hold off on packaging that for the moment, i just found a nasty bug i'm talking to the upstream dev abou
[08:10] <pitti> trulux: yes
[08:11] <Kamion> thesaltydog: it's in Debian documentation, yes
[08:11] <luis_> hrm, anyone here familiar with the liveCD bits? what fs type is / (and as a result /home/ubuntu/) exactly?
[08:11] <luis_> mount reports it as... something very strange
[08:11] <luis_> '/dev/mapper/casper-snapshot on / type auto (rw,noatime)'
[08:11] <luis_> (I had expected tmpfs)
[08:11] <Lathiat> isnt it cloop ?
[08:11] <jdub> yes, it's a dm layer
[08:11] <thesaltydog> Not true. Debian can diversify runlevels.. One user asked me to provide divesification from RL 3 and the others..
[08:12] <surak> what is dm?
[08:12] <jdub> device mapper
[08:12] <Kamion> thesaltydog: Debian's default is identical to Ubuntu's.
[08:12] <jdub> luis_: it's a dm overlay on top of cloop
[08:12] <surak> jdub: Could you talk a little bit more about this?
[08:12] <Kamion> thesaltydog: so I'd like to know exactly what you're disagreeing with when you say "not true"
[08:12] <thesaltydog> Kamion, with debian I was used to have runlevel 4 as a non-graphic server configuration..
[08:12] <Kamion> thesaltydog: that's not the default. You could do the same with Ubuntu if you like.
[08:13] <thesaltydog> Kamion, no. Because then when you apdate a package, the postint script will run again update-rc.d and put all the RLs the same..
[08:13] <luis_> though I am googling furiously ;)
[08:13] <Kamion> thesaltydog: which is *exactly the same* on Debian.
[08:13] <Kamion> 17:49 < ewx> Pinkbeast: Fnqyl abg.
[08:13] <Kamion> err
[08:13] <Kamion> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html#s-sysvinit
[08:14] <thesaltydog> Kamion, I have read the debian-policy and they say that you can have different behaviours on runlevels.. 
[08:14] <Lathiat> luis_: aiui, theres probably more to the story, its a layer for consistent naming of devices, notably used with things like lvm/raid but other stuff too 
[08:14] <jdub> luis_: dm is just the kernel foo that lets us provide a writeable overlay on top of the cloop filesystem; it's also used for evms, lvm, etc.
[08:14] <luis_> ah
[08:14] <Kamion> thesaltydog: it's highly unconventional and I can't think of any Debian packages that do it by default. I also think it's unwise. Leave it to the sysadmin.
[08:15] <thesaltydog> Kamion, anyway, my question is just simple: should I remove RL3-4-5 from the GUI of ubm?
[08:15] <Kamion> thesaltydog: Please don't.
[08:16] <thesaltydog> Kamion, but trulux was saying that the GUI is not simple. He asked to simplify..
[08:16] <kiko-fud> surak, we use dm to implement a sort of COW on top of cloop.
[08:16] <Lathiat> thesaltydog: thats not a simplification
[08:16] <Lathiat> thesaltydog: thats just obfuscation
[08:16] <trukulo> thesaltydog: one interesting thing, for usability, is to show what the default RL is
[08:16] <Lathiat> thesaltydog: i would envisage the entire design to be different
[08:16] <doko> elmo: do some of xorg's, libxau's build deps need NEW love?
[08:16] <trukulo> thesaltydog: i'm not a developer, and this is just my opinion
[08:16] <thesaltydog> Lathiat, I agree..
[08:17] <elmo> nah, they need universe -> main love; I'm on it
[08:17] <thesaltydog> Lathiat, I don't like to obfuscate, that's why I have added also rcS.d
[08:17] <Lathiat> thesaltydog: so far example (this is just an example), you may say list all services, then you open that service and it lists what runlevels it starts and shuts down at, and to change it, etc
[08:17] <surak> Kamion: still having trouble with inirtrd.
[08:18] <thesaltydog> Lathiat, but in the way you don't have a first global impression of what your system is...
[08:18] <Lathiat> thesaltydog: I dont see what you mean
[08:18] <Lathiat> thesaltydog: its also possible to have multiple views
[08:18] <trukulo> thesaltydog: i think about simplified conf, and advanced conf
[08:18] <Lathiat> Service View
[08:18] <Kamion> surak: ?
[08:18] <Lathiat> Runlevel view
[08:18] <Lathiat> etc etc
[08:18] <surak> 1 min
[08:19] <Lathiat> because sometimes you want to see different lists of tings
[08:19] <surak> phone
[08:19] <thesaltydog> Lathiat, multiple view means "<confusion>". My opinion..
[08:19] <trukulo> thesaltydog: in simplified, just use default level, and enable- disable service
[08:19] <trukulo> as rcconf
[08:19] <thesaltydog> trukulo, so you mean to remove RL 3-4-5 information?
[08:20] <trukulo> thesaltydog: no, i mean put it on tab advanced i.e.
[08:20] <trukulo> use two tabs, simple and advanced
[08:20] <thesaltydog> trukulo, a sort of "expert" mode?
[08:20] <trukulo> advanced as you have
[08:20] <trukulo> thesaltydog: yes
[08:20] <trukulo> but very visible
[08:20] <thesaltydog> trukulo, you see, I have also rcS.d
[08:20] <trukulo> tabs are perfect for this
[08:21] <thesaltydog> trukulo, and I already havce tabs
[08:21] <trukulo> i see, just add another one, simple configuration
[08:21] <trukulo> and make it default, for novices
[08:22] <thesaltydog> trukulo, mmh. Nice. It could be..
[08:22] <trukulo> thesaltydog: and with description of service
[08:22] <trukulo> instead of RL
[08:22] <trukulo> that would be very interesting for novices, as they would know what a service does
[08:22] <thesaltydog> trukulo, description of service is always visible in the lower pane, as synaptic.
[08:23] <thesaltydog> trukulo, the full description
[08:23] <trukulo> umm, you're right
[08:23] <trukulo> perhaps one line desc only
[08:23] <trukulo> just for fast visual understanding
[08:24] <thesaltydog> trukulo, no, it will double the info... Of course in novice mode that should not change start/stop priority??
[08:24] <thesaltydog> trukulo, that==they
[08:24] <trukulo> thesaltydog: just my opinion, if you want descriptions, you have to select services one by one
[08:25] <trukulo> this way you can view it faster
[08:25] <thesaltydog> trukulo, it is now this way. Have you tried moving in list with cursors..?
[08:25] <trukulo> i know cursors do it, but that's not my point
[08:25] <trukulo> i want to see entire list easy
[08:26] <trukulo> imagine i'm a novice, and i want to stop printer service
[08:26] <trukulo> do i have to select and read all descs for services? that's slow
[08:26] <trukulo> it's just a commodity
[08:26] <trukulo> and only in simple view
[08:26] <thesaltydog> trukulo, no, you run the program, right-click con cupsys, and deactivate now. That's all..
[08:26] <trukulo> boot/service name/description
[08:27] <trukulo> novice don't know cupsys are for printers
[08:27] <trukulo> they have to look for it
[08:27] <mdke> trukulo, that will help them find out
[08:27] <trukulo> mdke: that's the point
[08:27] <thesaltydog> trukulo, mmh. Neither UBM knows...
[08:28] <mdke> trukulo, imo there is nothing wrong with getting users to read a full description, it is good education
[08:28] <trukulo> mdke: that's true, but you may help finding things
[08:28] <thesaltydog> mdke, like synaptic does..
[08:28] <trukulo> i can see cupsys is for printers, and then i select and read full desc
[08:28] <mdke> trukulo, i think the interface makes the full description fairly easy to find
[08:28] <thesaltydog> trukulo, between us. I don't want to make a Gates-like application for dummies.
[08:29] <mdke> trukulo, if you see that, i feel that you won't read the description ;)
[08:29] <mdke> thesaltydog, +
[08:29] <trukulo> that's just my opinion, of course you can disagree
[08:29] <thesaltydog> trukulo, hey, we are not arguing here, just brainstorming
[08:29] <mdke> yeah
[08:29] <mdke> iirc the old gnome-s-t service manager didn't have short descriptions
[08:29] <mdke> actually i'll have a look
[08:29] <trukulo> but easier, doesn't means "for stupids only" :)
[08:29] <trulux> pitti: http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/patches/security/kern-security-2.patch
[08:30] <thesaltydog> trukulo, one last question.
[08:30] <trukulo> thesaltydog: i'm just a sysadmin, not a ubuntu developer, eh?
[08:30] <trukulo> so take mi opinions just as that, a sysadmin opinion
[08:31] <thesaltydog> trukulo, is there a "standard & unique" way to detect if a script in init.d has a daemon running, currently?
[08:31] <trukulo> thesaltydog: as i know, not in debian, if you find one tell me, as yast4debian has problems with the same thing
[08:31] <thesaltydog> trukulo, i.e.: I see that a script is named cupsys, but his daemon's name is cupsd..
[08:32] <mdke> the old gnome system tools one is here: http://mdke.mine.nu/images/g-s-t.png, it has some brief explanations
[08:32] <trukulo> in other distros, it's with /etc/init.d/service status
[08:32] <thesaltydog> trukulo, I can parse the init.d script file, but they are not the same, not standard
[08:32] <trukulo> thesaltydog: you can take a look at yast4debian, they had the same problem
[08:32] <trukulo> http://yast4debian.alioth.debian.org/
[08:33] <thesaltydog> trukulo, ok. I will look. It could be nice coloring green running services and red stopped ones..
[08:33] <mdke> sorry, dud link, http://mdke.mine.nu/images/g-s-t.png
[08:33] <trukulo> thesaltydog: sure
[08:34] <mdke> thesaltydog, good idea
[08:35] <thesaltydog> mdke, but there is no way to get them..
[08:35] <trukulo> thesaltydog: but , again, i want to return to my point of fast descs :)
[08:35] <mdke> thesaltydog, :/
[08:35] <trukulo> thesaltydog: there's a way, very strange, but there is
[08:35] <trukulo> as yast4debian does this
[08:36] <thesaltydog> trukulo, you need to parse the files, but the syntax is not standard. Someone use NAME=daemon, other use DAEMON=daemon
[08:36] <thesaltydog> and other, like apache, use completely different syntax
[08:36] <trukulo> let me see
[08:37] <trukulo> thesaltydog: there was another way
[08:37] <trukulo> let me look for it
[08:43] <surak> Kamion: are u there?
[08:44] <Kamion> surak: yes, for about 15 more minutes
[08:44] <surak> Think I'll start working earlier, so I can cope with european time :-)
[08:44] <surak> My problems with ubuntuexpress are:
[08:45] <surak> 1) as you already know, the cd's initrd won't work.
[08:45] <surak> 2) I must be doing something really wrong with mkinitrd.
[08:45] <Kamion> 1) is a feature, not a problem. :-)
[08:45] <thesaltydog> trukulo, ?
[08:45] <Kamion> the initrd on the CDs is an integral part of the installer
[08:46] <Kamion> 2) can you elaborate?
[08:46] <Kamion> surak: mdz's back now, and he might be on more compatible times to you
[08:46] <surak> 3) the /dev is not ok. For instance, live has a /dev/shm/network - running udevstart won't create it (so no apt-get)
[08:47] <trukulo> thesaltydog: still looking for
[08:47] <surak> hum. it worked now ( 3 )
[08:47] <thesaltydog> trukulo, ah, okay. I wait..
[08:47] <doko> mdz: please could you review mvo's changes to apt? it's the last library in main with the old C++ ABI
[08:48] <Kamion> surak: you need to mount /dev/shm; there's an init script for it. Rebooting into the new system should be enough
[08:48] <trukulo> thesaltydog: http://www.shallowsky.com/software/scripts/lsconfig
[08:48] <trukulo> there you have
[08:49] <mdz> doko: I already did
[08:49] <thesaltydog> trukulo, wait.. I'll have a look
[08:49] <mdz> doko: he emailed me yesterday
[08:49] <Kamion> surak: 'mount -t tmpfs shmfs /dev/shm' ought to do it
[08:49] <surak> kamion: ok
[08:49] <mdz> doko: I responded to him today
[08:49] <thesaltydog> trukulo, this is what ubm does to list the init scripts...
[08:50] <thesaltydog> trukulo, but ubm does it better
[08:50] <trukulo> thesaltydog: but there was another program
[08:50] <thesaltydog> trukulo, maybe I have wrongly posed my question.
[08:50] <trukulo> and look at this
[08:50] <trukulo> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/12/msg00737.html
[08:51] <trukulo> there's no /etc/init.d/service status in debian
[08:51] <trukulo> and nothing similar, as i know
[08:51] <thesaltydog> trukulo, I know. Someone tried to make it standard, but it couldn't..
[08:52] <thesaltydog> trukulo, ok. I will take care of it.
[08:52] <doko> mdz: thanks
[08:52] <thesaltydog> trukulo, you have been very kind
[08:52] <trukulo> thesaltydog: i just try to help you :) you are helping us with your program more than i
[08:52] <thesaltydog> trukulo, so your suggestion is: 3 tabs: 1. Short view 2-Standard Runlevels 3_System runlevel
[08:53] <surak> Kamion: i need to do initrd in a chroot device, am I correct? Inside the mounted target. 
[08:53] <trukulo> yes, and short descs in the list, and extended down, as know
[08:53] <thesaltydog> trukulo,  don't know about this latter..
[08:53] <trukulo> it's easier for finding services
[08:54] <ogra> thesaltydog, you should work with the MOTU to get it included in universe
[08:54] <thesaltydog> trukulo, but I should build a completely new cache for descriptions! Now I am taking those from the apt cache on the user's disk..
[08:54] <ogra> thesaltydog, i already told that to abelli
[08:54] <trukulo> thesaltydog: you just can use a crippled desc, from full
[08:54] <thesaltydog> ogra, what do you mean by "work" with motu??
[08:55] <thesaltydog> trukulo, look at the titles. They are not enough for a sjort description.
[08:55] <ogra> thesaltydog, only MOTUs have upload rights to universe
[08:55] <trukulo> cupsys ? doesn't seem printing service :)
[08:55] <trukulo> for you and me, of course it is
[08:55] <trukulo> but for new people... it isn't
[08:56] <thesaltydog> trukulo, to make cupsys=printing services I have to write down (word by word) a dictionary
[08:56] <trukulo> or just take first 80 characters of description you are using now
[08:56] <thesaltydog> trukulo, aks to ubuntu mainteiners to change the descriptions
[08:56] <trukulo> at least, it's useful information
[08:56] <thesaltydog> trukulo, that could be
[08:56] <trukulo> and people can continue reading full desc when select it
[08:57] <thesaltydog> ogra, abelli already asked them. What should I do more?
[08:57] <Kamion> surak: yes; you should also look at what base-installer does with mkinitrd.conf
[08:57] <ogra> thesaltydog, yes, he asked me
[08:57] <thesaltydog> trukulo, but I like to have full descr in the lower pane... please..
[08:57] <ogra> thesaltydog, you probably should join #ubuntu-motu for a start ;
[08:57] <Kamion> because you'll need to imitate it, or (possibly better) refactor base-installer's code so that you can use it directly
[08:57] <ogra> ;)
[08:57] <thesaltydog> ogra, I will try if I can
[08:58] <thesaltydog> ogra, but I prefer to use my time for developing, than for making "public-relations"
[08:58] <trukulo> thesaltydog: of course, full desc is a MUST-HAVE
[08:58] <ogra> thesaltydog, if you want to see your app in ubuntu thats the way yu have to take
[09:00] <Kamion> oh, also, it might be worth thinking of a name other than "Ubuntu Bootup Manager"
[09:01] <Kamion> because we're trying to support derivatives and thus generally trying to move towards not stamping our name all over everything, except in clearly defined areas
[09:01] <trukulo> Service Boot Manager
[09:02] <thesaltydog> whay?
[09:02] <thesaltydog> why?
[09:02] <thesaltydog> trukulo, have you any babies in your family? Did someone ever asked you to change his/her name?
[09:02] <trukulo> because imagine that Guadalinex use this, they can't have a program named Ubuntu blah
[09:03] <trukulo> the only thing kamion says, is that is bad call a program ubuntu-blah
[09:03] <trukulo> as ubuntu can be used to make derivatives distributions, as guadalinex
[09:03] <Kamion> geez, don't equate programs with babies. :-)
[09:03] <thesaltydog> ubuntu update manager could be used in debian..
[09:04] <Kamion> thesaltydog: yes, and there's a bug open about its name ... it was written before we really started thinking about these issues
[09:04] <Kamion> or its .desktop file, at least
[09:04] <trukulo> can he call it UBM and change .desktop to say Service Boot Manager ?
[09:06] <thesaltydog> Someone has opened a thread for me in ubuntuforums with that name U..B..M..
[09:08] <TSWoodV> No one seems to care that "yum" is "Yellowdog Update Manager", from the eponymous PowerPC/Mac-oriented distro.
[09:09] <surak> I thought it was yellowdog updater modified
[09:09] <Kamion> TSWoodV: abbreviations are fine, but we'd prefer to have some other user-visible name for the .desktop file so that it isn't a branding headache
[09:10] <spotter> where did startx go in breezy?
[09:11] <Kamion> we're in the middle of a large X shakeup
[09:11] <spotter> any easy way to get my old X back :)
[09:11] <Kamion> don't use breezy? :)
[09:11] <spotter> what fun would that be?
[09:11] <spotter> :)
[09:11] <Kamion> at least not while it's in the middle of a fairly well-advertised transition
[09:12] <spotter> I was in japan
[09:12] <Kamion> upgrading may help, though, there've been fixes today
[09:12] <spotter> wasnt really paying attention
[09:12] <Kamion> breezy will settle down in time, but this is the "early breakage" period
[09:12] <spotter> yes, and thats why its fun
[09:13] <spotter> have a lot of packages on hold because of c++ issues
[09:13] <spotter> what was the last version of X before the breakage?
[09:14] <spotter> or shakeup that is
[09:15] <spotter> hmm, I can probably get X working for me for now via xvncserver and the svga client. hmm
[09:15] <surak> odd: hoary does not detect a second cd reader when running from live.
[09:15] <thesaltydog> Kamion, were you serious about changing ubm name??
[09:16] <Kamion> thesaltydog: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BrandingForDerivatives; read and ponder
[09:17] <Kamion> "ubm" is fine on its own, IMHO ...
[09:18] <thesaltydog> Kamion, so, change the name...change the gui... I did it for my enjoying and for the people, not for work!
[09:19] <trukulo> thesaltydog: it was me who say to change the gui :)
[09:19] <trukulo> thesaltydog: next tme, don't ask ;)
[09:20] <thesaltydog> trukulo, right :-)
[09:21] <spotter> argh, xbase-clients has xauth.1.gz but not the binary
[09:21] <spotter> there goes vnc idea
[09:21] <spotter> oh well, back to 1994 and no X for me
[09:21] <spotter> 94 was a better time anyways
[09:21] <eruin> muhaha. I like the daily X breakage :)
[09:22] <spotter> btw
[09:22] <spotter> anyone know how one switches channels in bitchx?
[09:22] <spotter> :)
[09:22] <eruin> alt+1 Id guess
[09:22] <spotter> my bitchx skills are rusty
[09:22] <trukulo> spotter: alt+number
[09:22] <spotter> and if you have more than 10?
[09:22] <spotter> :)
[09:22] <ogra> spotter, did you use highly breaking development branches of software in 1994 for your regular work ?
[09:23] <spotter> ogra: yes :)
[09:23] <spotter> otherwise known as slackware
[09:23] <ogra> heh
[09:23] <surak> it hasn't changed a lot since that :-)
[09:23] <surak> since then, sorry
[09:23] <spotter> about the only thing it could ompile sucsefully was the kernel
[09:23] <ogra> spotter, so then you are used to it, why do you complain ;)
[09:23] <spotter> dosemu seemed to cause make to go into an infinite loop on it
[09:24] <spotter> not complaining
[09:24] <spotter> asking if possible anything I can do to fix it
[09:25] <surak> Breezy live also does not seems to recognize a second cd drive...
[09:25] <ogra> spotter, either sending nice cool patches to daniels... or just wait is what you can do...
[09:25] <spotter> ok. I have the patience of a buddhist monk
[09:26] <spotter> ah, I see how this window stuff works
[09:30] <mdz> jbailey: I keep ending up with duplicate entries in /etc/locale.gen
[09:30] <mdz> jbailey: is that a langpack issue or a locales issue?
[09:33] <eruin> today's breezy i386 cd didn't seem to know how to install itself :-)
[09:43] <dilinger> infinity: ping
[09:46] <doko> thom: please could you have a look at the mozilla build failuere on ia64?
[09:57] <pitti_> ogra: yay http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/buildlogs/
[09:57] <doko> elmo: please could you install mozilla build-deps on halley?
[09:58] <ogra> pitti_, could be faster, but well :)
[09:58] <doko> ogra: fix more failures, a shorter list is faster to load ;-P
[09:59] <ogra> doko, i'm working on it... 
[09:59] <trulux> pitti_: going to sync the packages from ajmitch to pearls, will take a while
[09:59] <trulux> pitti_: ;) (today's good day for us!)
[09:59] <ogra> doko, not everybody is born to mass-upload ;-P
[10:00] <ogra> doko, and i dont have the hardware (yet) to run 50 builds in parallel
[10:16] <mvo> back from hockey
[10:16] <jbailey> mdz: I don't see that on my boxes here.  My guess is probably langpack issue - locales shouldn't touch the /etc/locale.gen except if you do a dpkg-reconfigure.  I say that completely without proof, though.
[10:16] <mvo> mdz: thanks for looking over the apt changes :)
[10:18] <kiko> mvo, how did they look?
[10:25] <elmo> doko: done
[10:26] <doko> elmo: thanks. I did upload fixed libxau and libxdmcp packages, please could you process them from NEW?
[10:28] <doko> elmo: do you see anywhere a x11proto-gl-dev (virtual) package?
[10:29] <elmo> doko: they're not in new
[10:29] <doko> ahh, ok, maybe the binaries will arrive there
[10:29] <elmo> x11proto-gl-dev |      1.4-1 |        breezy | all
[10:31] <doko> ok, then xorg should build at the next run
[10:38] <lamont> daniels: a new xfonts-core?  sigh
[10:40] <spotter> yay, X works again
[10:41] <mvo> kiko: so far we merged some gcc-4.0 warnings and the cache-control patch
[10:44] <kiko> mvo, you da man
[10:45] <mvo> kiko: thanks man, but that's too much praise, really
[10:45] <surak> :-)
[10:46] <doko> smurfix: ping
[10:46] <smurfix> doko: 
[10:46] <Mithrandir> is that a pong character?
[10:46] <smurfix> sure
[10:46] <Mithrandir> which font do I need to see it?
[10:47] <smurfix> good question. One moment
[10:47] <spotter> where doe one get the nautilis-open-terminal extension?
[10:49] <smurfix> Mithrandir: gucharmap finds "AR PL KaitiM GB", which probably is in whichever Chinese font I managed to install last time
[10:49] <kiko> mvo, I think that including the full path is the correct approach to the path truncation issue, for the record.
[10:50] <mvo> kiko: for error messages? or for all output?
[10:50] <doko> smurfix: festival doesn't build using 3.4 or 4.0 ...
[10:51] <smurfix> doko: That shouldn't happen. URL of the build log?
[10:51] <kiko> mvo, for all output. otherwise it's just confusing. and the case where the strings get too long (>72chars) is pretty rare, isn't it?
[10:52] <spotter> seb: you here?
[10:52] <spotter> guess not. hmm
[10:52] <smurfix> doko: did speech-tools build?
[10:52] <doko> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/f/festival/1.4.3-16build1/festival_1.4.3-16build1_20050523-1814-i386-failed.gz
[10:53] <doko> didn't try, because we have build-deps on festival-dev
[10:53] <mvo> kiko: for ubuntu it's very rare, but it's common for debian mirrors it seems
[10:54] <lamont> xorg ftbfs: x include file errors.  /me giggles
[10:55] <smurfix> doko: festival depends on libestools1.2-dev, built by speech-tools, and which presumably needs a c++ ABI transition ..?
[10:55] <kiko> mvo, how common? hummm.
[10:56] <mvo> kiko: it's easy for tools like synaptic that have scrollbars :P
[10:57] <smurfix> doko: anyway, the (first) errors occur in a speech-tools include file
[10:57] <doko> smurfix: ok, I have a look
[10:58] <smurfix> doko: Upstream is busy completing their transition to Festival 2.0 which includes an updated speechtools which allegedly works with gcc 4.0
[11:00] <smurfix> doko: ... which I obviously need to debian/ubuntu-ize as soon as I have a couple of spare hours :-/
[11:03] <smurfix> doko: Looking at these errors, it seems that gcc has again become annoyingly more standards-conformant, otherwise known as "anal".
[11:26] <surak> Kiko, are u there?
[11:26] <surak> or Kamion?
[11:28] <kiko> I am!
[11:29] <surak> My trouble was that I was not able to create a initrd.
[11:29] <surak> because of this: http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-20925.html
[11:31] <jbailey> surak: Best bet there is to run "sh -x mkinitrd ...." and see why it's not calling the mkcramfs bit then.
[11:33] <surak> doing it
[11:35] <elmo> Kamion: around?
[11:36] <elmo> GAR
[11:41] <surak> jbailey: seems I've found it.
[11:43] <surak> what happen is that if you don't type the full path, it will leave the initrd file inside the temporary folder, thus removing it right after creating it (if you don't use -k, of course. when you use it, you'll see your file as specified by -o inside the /tmp/mkinitrdXXXX folder)
[11:44] <Kamion> elmo: kinda
[11:45] <Kamion> surak: yeah, somebody just reported that bug in Debian recently
[11:45] <elmo> Kamion: you killed anastacia, you bastard
[11:45] <Kamion> elmo: how
[11:45] <Kamion> ?
[11:45] <elmo> kamion: removed the base seed
[11:46] <Kamion> er, yeah :)
[11:46] <Kamion> doesn't it use STRUCTURE?
[11:46] <elmo> it wasn't even 2005 germinate :P
[11:46] <Kamion> you should probably use 'cut -d: -f1' on seed-directory/STRUCTURE to get your seed list
[11:47] <elmo> kamion: I'm using ALL - hopefully that's unchanged?
[11:47] <elmo> err, 'all'
[11:47] <elmo> hmm, yay, that didn't work
[11:48] <Kamion> all? wassat?
[11:48] <elmo> the output file, 'all'
[11:50] <Kamion> elmo: that should still work
[11:50] <Kamion> I thought you meant you had a seed list hardcoded somewhere
[11:52] <surak> hum, seems I've done things right now. 
[11:52] <surak> It booted, altough in the ugliest way :-D
[11:52] <kiko> surak, woo!
[11:53] <surak> I cannot sudo udevstart ... :-D
[11:55] <surak> Well, let's make it inside my beatyful script now. This way, I'll have a completely borked system, right from ubuntu live! (just for today, of course)
[11:58] <mx|gone> jbailey: ping