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pitti22:00 CEST02:28
pittiargh, ECHAN, sorry02:29
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mdkehi titus` 08:07
titus`can I know what UTC time is it please ?08:09
tseng|workmeeting is in ~2 hours08:10
mdketech meeting08:10
titus`i'm waiting for the community council :)08:11
mdketitus`, thats in 4 hours08:11
titus`so 4 hours, thank you08:11
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mdketitus`, for future use: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/08:11
titus`ok, bookmarked08:12
zultitus` or you could open a terminal and go date --utc08:13
titus`better :)08:14
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Seveasplease, someone, put date -u in the topic :)08:33
mdkepeople asking won't read it08:33
mdkebut we can try ;)08:33
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdke] : Tue 24 May 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- review http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaintainerCandidates || Tue 24 May 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
Burgundaviadid anybody email -users and -devel about the meeting being moved back 2 hrs?08:47
dholbachfirst one will be a TB catch up meeting08:47
Burgundaviathe CC meetin, was it not originally at 24h08:47
dholbachno 22 utc08:48
dholbachi directly edited the calendar08:48
Burgundaviathat is odd08:48
dholbachafter the last one :-)08:48
Burgundaviaoh, ok, as long as it was not today08:49
Burgundaviamy mind playing funny tricks08:49
=== dholbach hands Burgundavia a cup of tea
=== Burgundavia has been up since UTC 14:00 yesterday
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ograwow ?08:54
mdkejust a regular day for you Burgundavia 09:00
opihi guys09:01
opiit's +1 to the meeting? or is that +3?09:01
mdke+1 to tech meeting09:01
mdke+3 to CC09:01
opioh, thanks mdke :)09:01
opimdke: yup I just rised my head from a pillow :)09:01
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zulhey JaneW09:49
JaneWhi zul09:49
tseng|workhi zul, jane09:49
zulhey tseng|work 09:49
JaneWhi tseng|work 09:49
\shgood evening :)09:50
lamontevening JaneW 09:52
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=== JaneW waves at lamont
JaneWlo \sh09:52
dholbachhellas mvo09:52
mvohey dholbach 09:53
dholbachhey JaneW, lamont, zul, tseng|work, \sh :-)09:53
=== \sh waves to JaneW :)
\shhuhu dholbach :)09:53
JaneW\sh btw are you South African? (originally)09:53
\shJaneW: no :)09:54
JaneW\sh, I asked because of the bilton thing09:54
ograJaneW, he'd love to09:54
JaneWhey dholbach 09:54
\shJaneW: but my ex-wife comes from P.M.09:54
zulheh...i lived in africa for 8 years09:54
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\shJaneW: and when I was visiting ZA I became addicted to biltong :) and chili cheese burgers from coconut grove@durban beach front :)09:55
lamontKamion: you around?09:55
JaneWyour name *could* be SA too09:55
TreenaksJaneW: that's because of all the German and Dutch influence09:55
\shJaneW: yeah I know :) I saw also some german city names there :)09:55
\shJaneW: where u coming from?09:55
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opiOK, I'll spy on you gus because I have nothing better to do untill CC will start :-)09:56
JaneW\sh you mean like Heidelberg!? *LOL*09:56
\shJaneW: right :)09:56
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dholbachhaha... heidelberg :-)09:57
zulhey jeff09:57
jbaileyHeya Chuck09:57
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\shJaneW: btw...there is a guy from .fi he wants to get this biltong connection working too :)09:57
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\shdholbach: it was funny to see this city name on a highway in ZA...09:58
ivokshi all09:58
\shhey doko 09:58
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dholbach\sh: you thought you took the wrong crossing, hm? :-)09:58
JaneWdholbach: don't laugh we actually have 2 towns called Heidelberg in SA!09:58
\shdholbach: hey...I was sitting in a car with 4 ZA indians on the way to joburg09:59
dholbachJaneW: i dont :-)09:59
tseng|workmeeting time.09:59
tseng|workhi pitti!09:59
=== Treenaks hands tseng|work ntpdate
mdz15 second by ntp.09:59
JaneW\sh: yes biltong is a good SA export, of course you'd get locked up trying to take any to a place like australia ;)09:59
mdzwelcome, everyone10:00
mdzlet's begin10:00
\shdholbach: just in front of the city frontiers the locale police of joburg had a test of new recruiters...they were quite surprised, a paleface sitting with 4 indians in a car 10:00
mdzKeybuk notified me that he may be ~10 minutes late10:00
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mdzso we'll need to wait for him in order to process maintainer candidates10:00
mdzbut if there is any other business, we can discuss it while we wait10:00
\shJaneW: it's not even allowed here in germany :( but when you enter germany via terminal 2 from heathrow u have luck and no customs is controlling (if you're european)10:00
Treenaksmdz: Maintainer or MemberCandidates?10:01
mdzTreenaks: both10:01
pittimdz: can we hot-add postgresql to the agenda?10:01
dholbachTreenaks: members are in CC meeting10:01
mdzpitti: sure, what's the issue?10:01
dholbachah ok10:01
fabbionemdz: and TB meeting time rotation please10:01
pittimdz: the current breezy packages are still the "old" architecture, I'd like to put in the new architecture as in Debian experimental10:01
JaneWmaybe mention that the CC meeting follows at 22:00 UTC?10:01
Treenaksdholbach: oh wait.. *wrong agenda*10:01
pittimdz: I won't support the current packages for Sarge+1 anyway, so Breezy would be the first distro with 8.0 and the multicluster architecture10:02
mdzpitti: are you confident that the packages can be stabilized by featurefreeze?10:02
dokopitti: hold on! let's finish one of the three things we started ...10:02
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ogradoko, why ? its more fun....10:02
pittimdz: yes, I hack a lot of them during my free time and they have almost all of the features of the current packages10:02
pittidoko: ?10:02
mdzpitti: are there upgrade issues to consider?10:02
pittimdz: there is a transition package to postgresql-7.4, and a pg_upgradecluster script to transition to 8.010:03
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pittimdz: a mere dist-upgrade will settle everything for you10:03
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Treenakspitti: a working upgrade script?!10:03
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dokopitti: how many packages have to be changed? let's wait one or two weeks until xorg and C++ ABI are in a usable state10:03
mdzpitti: so postgresql_7.4.5 will be superseded by postgresql_8.0?10:03
pittimdz: actually by postgresql-7.410:03
pittimdz: -8.0 can be installed in parallel10:04
mdzdoko: the question is whether we will do it for breezy10:04
pittimdz: the biggest piece of work is the libpq3 -> libpq4 transition10:04
mdzpitti: ok, so a dist-upgrade does not upgrade you to 8.010:04
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ogradoko, i thought main was done already10:04
pittimdz: no, the purpose of the new arch was to explicitly avoid database upgrades during package upgrades10:04
pittimdz: that only led to trouble10:04
ogradoko, CXX that it...10:04
mdzpitti: and you do not mind supporting both 7.4 and 8.0 in a stable release?10:04
pittimdz: since I will do it anyway for Sarge+1, and upstream is very nice, I don't mind10:05
mdzpitti: ok, I have no problem then10:05
pittimdz: for bigger vendors like ISPs it is nice to be able to offer several versions and multiple clustes, so I'd like to keep 7.4 around10:05
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pittimdz: it would require to minimally-change ~20 packages for libpq410:06
fabbionepitti: we need to talk about pgsql 8.010:06
fabbionebut at a later stage10:06
dokopitti: please don't start now, but in June first 10:06
pittidoko: that's fine for me10:06
pittimdz: the point is, the current packages are a PITA to maintain and a PITA for upgrading users10:06
dokopitti: thanks10:06
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mdzok, fabbione: meeting times?10:06
pittimdz: I don't want to support it longer than necessary10:06
fabbionemdz: yes. we need to rotate the meeting time to get other people too10:07
fabbionemdz: it was proposed and approved but never really took place10:07
pittidoko: I'm not in a hurry, June will be more than fine10:07
JaneWI second that10:08
mdzfabbione: what do you suggest?10:08
fabbionemdz: mako suggested something like 20:00 UTC and 10:00 UTC?10:08
fabbionemdz: or something along that line10:08
ograsounds good10:08
JaneWworks for me10:08
fabbionemdz: my original suggestion was different10:08
mdzfabbione: it is necessary that I be awake during the meeting10:08
pittiogra: yeah, nice for Europe10:08
fabbionebut apparently nobody liked it10:08
mdz1000 UTC is 0300 for me10:09
\shyes...directly in my lunch pause :)10:09
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fabbionemdz: the point is whatever rotation we do, somebody needs to be awake10:09
fabbionemdz: and uk didn't like the original proposal10:09
JaneWhow bad is 6:00UTC?10:09
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dokoit would be nice not to have a 20:00 UTC meeting in end of June10:09
dokoJaneW, yes!10:09
pittiHi Keybuk 10:09
Burgundavia11pm our time, JaneW10:09
JaneWare people in the states still up then?10:09
mdzKeybuk: we briefly discussed postgresql 8.0, and are now talking about meeting scheduling10:09
mdzKeybuk: (while waiting for you so that we can process maintainers)10:10
BurgundaviaJaneW, by our, I mean mdz and myself10:10
Keybukdid you get my text?10:10
mdzJaneW: I'm often awake then, but it means the meeting will have to be strictly time-limited so that I get to sleep at a reasonable hour10:10
mdzKeybuk: yes10:10
JaneWBurgundavia: ok, and the Canadians etc too of course10:10
\shsiretat will join the meeting between 20:30 and 20:45 utc he has a schedule 10:10
mdzKeybuk: you beat your estimate by 20 seconds10:10
Keybukwhat meeting times are we considering?10:11
BurgundaviaJaneW, that is terrible time for east coast people/brazial people10:11
Keybukgiven this current time already seems to be impossible for sabdfl to make10:11
JaneWmdz: it;s 10:11pm now, and the CC meeting is 12am my time :P10:11
mdzKeybuk: fabbione proposed 1000 UTC, but that's firmly in sleep territory for me10:11
fabbioneKeybuk: 06:00 UTC and 20:00 UTC10:11
fabbionein rotation10:11
fabbioneso that we can alternate10:11
Keybuk6 utc is too early for me to function properly (or indeed, make, usually)10:12
mdzJaneW: yes, but I have to be lucid for TB meetings :-)10:12
dokowhat about 18:00 UTC?10:12
mdz1800 UTC is no problem for me10:12
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fabbionewell clearly in rotation somebody needs to sacrify a bit10:12
JaneWI could do 1800 UTC, but 1900 would be better10:13
dokois this ok for jbailey, or earlier? we did start with 16:00 UTC10:13
fabbionebut that would give other continets the possibility to partecipate as well10:13
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mdzbasically 1700-0500 can be made to work for me10:13
jbaileydoko: Yup.10:13
Keybukfabbione: the problem with the TB meeting is that we've such as small Q, for even one of us to be unable to make it or insufficiently lucid, defaults the point10:13
Keybukunlike the CC members, who are ten a penny :p10:13
JaneWok, how many Australians are there?10:13
pittimdz: well, 0500 is still almost night, but doable10:13
jbaileydoko: Pretty much any night time that is good for Europe is going to be good for north america, and any morning that's good for mdz will be good for those of us east of him. =)10:13
fabbioneKeybuk: well that's an issue that can be addressed expanding the TB10:13
SeveasNow here's an idea: let everybody write down his/her doable time and send it to JaneW, she can pick a time that's reasonable for all10:14
ograJaneW, none10:14
fabbioneKeybuk: as it is now we are cutting away a good portion of the community10:14
JaneWSeveas: good idea10:14
fabbioneand i don't find it sensible at all10:14
JaneWhoweveer I will have to make some 'executive decisions' I am sure ;)10:14
mdzKeybuk: huh?10:14
pittiwe also have to consider people from e. g. Asia10:14
mdzlast I checked the CC and TB had a similar number of members10:14
KeybukI thought CC had 5 ?10:14
opiSeveas: I suggest same thing to Mako about CC ;)10:15
JaneWdoes sabdfl need/want to be at these meetings?10:15
JaneWif yes, what times is HE available?10:15
pittiJaneW: he has a vote, he should be10:15
opiJaneW: he's on CC from time to time10:15
Seveassabdfl wants to be on CC generally afaik10:15
mdzKeybuk: 410:15
mdzKeybuk: The Community Council is constituted as follows: Benjamin Hill, Mark Shuttleworth, Colin Watson, and James Troup10:15
Keybukyeah, just read that :)  Somehow I thought lamont was on that too10:16
Keybukso ignore me :p10:16
mdzJaneW: sabdfl and Keybuk are in the same time zone10:16
mdzphysically anyway10:16
JaneWyes, which is similar to mine10:16
lamontKeybuk: I show up and give my opinion from time to time... but am on neither board10:16
dholbachi think we should pick some times that fit for the most, make the time frame a BIT bigger, so it will hurt a BIT, and then start rotating10:16
mdzI can give a 12-hour window, 1700-0500 UTC for the start of a meeting10:17
JaneWcan we try 6:00 and 20:00 and see how that goes?10:17
Keybukfor me, 1000-2359UTC10:17
\shi don't mind the times....when I know when the meeting starts i'm there...even during work hours or dream hours10:18
=== Kamion arrives
Keybukor I may mean 0900-2300UTC, I'm not sure which way the math works :p10:18
Kamion(sorry for lateness, etc.)10:18
JaneWthanks \sh :)10:18
mdzJaneW: we can try 0600 next tiime, yes10:18
dholbach\sh: same for me10:18
pittiworks for Europe10:18
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JaneWmdz if it's poorly attended or doesn;t work for you etc, we can strap the idea?10:18
mdzJaneW: for me, anyway10:18
mdzJaneW: I think it's worse for Keybuk10:18
mdzand sabdfl10:18
Keybukyeah, I almost certainly won't make a 0600UTC meeting10:18
Keybuknot entirely sure Mark will eitehr10:18
fabbionebut that would be like once every second week10:19
=== Kamion definitely can't make 0600, and we tried UK evil-time for the CC and it failed miserably
JaneWit's 7am then isn;t it?10:19
pittiJaneW: yes, and 8 in summer10:19
dholbachand if we rotated the time ever two weeks?10:19
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JaneWso, what;s the problem?10:19
Kamionpitti: for the UK it's 6am in winter and 7am in summer10:19
mdzthere is more than one problem10:19
KeybukJaneW: 7am UK in summer, 6am in winter10:19
seb128pitti: there is one hour difference between you and uk10:19
mdzsabdfl often can't make these meetings, regardless of the timing10:19
=== JaneW generally starts work at 7:30 am, 8:00 on a bad day :P
mdzKeybuk and I are 8 hours apart, so we're fairly restricted there already10:20
KamionI start after we've got the kid to school, which is 9am10:20
opiJaneW: me too, but I have to get to the office so it's another ~0.5h10:20
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JaneWKamion: that's why 15:00 - 18:00 UTC is not ideal for me (kids)10:20
=== Nafallo likes Seveas idea more and more ;-)
pittiI think the idea with the disc-shaped Earth a few centuries back was not at all that bad...10:21
mdzif we don't have sabdfl, then we need to accomodate both Keybuk and myself with regard to times10:21
JaneWok mdz, it;s obvious you just have to move ;)10:21
opipitti: unless you're not a sailor ;)10:21
Kamionof course, as far as the TB goes, quoracy is more important, so it doesn't matter *too* much if (say) I can't make every meeting, but somebody should ask sabdfl10:21
opipitti: s/not//10:21
mdzJaneW: then people will just complain that we're scheduling against the US10:21
ograpitti, oh, that changed ?10:21
mdzand excluding that bit of the community10:22
mdzif you guys want to try the next meeting without me, that's fine10:22
mdzbut if only one member of the board can attend, not much will get done10:22
Keybukwe tried that last week ;)10:22
JaneWer no, we tried that last week...10:22
JaneWthat's why we are back now ;)10:22
pittimdz: can we do the idea of the "every CC member states his available times and we take the intersection"?10:23
ograpitti, its TB here10:23
dokopitti: empty set ;-)10:23
=== Seveas repeats his idea in a different form: let all TB members and community enthousiasts write their time on some wiki page and a decision can be made later
mdzpitti: that's how we got the current time10:23
JaneWspeaking of which, now that Kamion is here should we go back to point 1, since this argument will probably never be concluded...10:23
mdzpitti: the complaint is that while the board members can attend, many community members can't10:23
=== Kamion can't find a point 1 in scrollback, so I hope we can recap
fabbionesomehow there are 2 problems10:24
mdzJaneW: eh?10:24
pittimdz: right, I know, but without board membery community folks can't be approved anyway10:24
fabbione1) time rotation10:24
dholbachi think most guys will "prepare" themselves, if they know a date and time (whenever it is)10:24
fabbione2) TB is too small to cover 24hour community10:24
fabbioneboth of them needs to be addressed imho10:24
Nafallofabbione: ++10:24
JaneWer were we waiting on kamion for a maintainer candidate?10:24
pittiidea: every meeting is 6 hours later than the previous one10:25
JaneWmaybe I missed something10:25
KamionJaneW: I'm not a TB member; I don't get a vote there10:25
mdza larger TB is not a good solution to a scheduling problem10:25
fabbionepitti: that was what mako and I proposed for the CC10:25
mdzJaneW: we were waiting on Keybuk10:25
pittithen all folks should be able to attend at least 2/4 in a month10:25
fabbionepitti: it didn't work10:25
\shquestion i have: do we need a TB meeting every 2nd week?10:25
pittifabbione: ok :-(10:25
ograJaneW, for maintainer candidates we're waiting for siretart10:25
mdz\sh: yes10:25
dholbach\sh: yes, i think so10:25
KamionI think it's far more important that general community members be able to attend CC meetings than TB meetings10:25
KeybukI think both mdz and I ignored the last attempt at rotation in the hope it'd go away :p10:25
Seveas\sh, see the calendar10:25
mdzpitti: there are only 2 per month10:25
fabbionepitti: mainly because nobody can deal with 1 bad wake up over 4 :(10:25
fabbione4 meetings...10:26
fabbione(2 months)10:26
\shmdz: ok for really technical stuff ok..but what about the community tb stuff? this should go every 4 weeks, and when the wanna be TB members wants to be in, they have only one appointment 10:26
Kamion\sh: by the time people are coming up for maintainership approval, their contributions ought to be obvious even in absentia10:26
dholbachfabbione has  a point - i think it's not that bad10:26
mdz\sh: technical stuff -> TB, community stuff -> CC10:26
Kamion\sh: if they aren't, they shouldn't be approved yet (he says making a wild generalisation)10:27
\shmdz: I was thinking about upload possibility for members10:27
mdzKamion: for discussion, it's useful for the persons involved in a project/idea to be present10:27
mdzKamion: sometimes a proxy works, but often not10:27
\shmdz: CC is something else10:27
ogramdz, i think \sh meant MOTU approvals10:27
siretarthi folks, just arrived :)10:27
\shogra: right10:27
ograsiretart, heya10:27
mdz\sh: that means waiting a full month just to get an answer for a candidate, and that is too long10:27
\shmdz: but then we can come to a conclusion for the times :) 10:27
mdz\sh: I don't see how it helps10:28
mdzwe have exactly the same scheduling problem, only less frequently10:28
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\shmdz: if there is only one meeting once a month for approval and that is, lets say, 6am UTC, so the people are there, because this is the only date for it..10:28
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JaneWhi siretart10:29
dholbachwhat about fabbione's point? who can't cope with one "bad wake up" in 4 meetings? this, to me, seems to be the only solution to this10:29
Kamion\sh: if you can make totally arbitrary times, you're a lucky man. Not everyone can.10:29
siretarthi JaneW, hello ogra 10:29
mdzdholbach: I don't see how that solves the problem10:29
mdzdholbach: 4 meetings = 2 months10:30
lamontmdz: it shares the pain10:30
fabbionemdz: as lamont said10:30
dholbachyes, if we rotated times properly10:30
JaneWand allows various timezones/continents to get involved, even if they only join in once every 2 months10:30
Keybukdholbach: clearly some people can't cope with one "bad wake up" for the sole time they need TB for something ... otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion10:30
fabbionemdz: basically of 4 meetings you get 2 of them during working hours, 1 a bit late in the eveining and only one as bad wake up10:30
mdzconsider that you're applying for maintainership10:30
lamontmdz: and basically means that you can count on being totally useless for one day every 2 months. :)10:30
\shKamion: well, when I have a schedule I can try to attend, if not, I can't 10:31
suraklamont: that's almost a booze - only missing beer10:31
JaneWlamont: aren't you usually? *duck*10:31
lamontJaneW: nearly always, dear. :-)10:31
Kamion\sh: even if people know in advance that really doesn't guarantee that other real life commitments that are more important than a volunteer project won't step in10:31
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mdzthe problem more or less goes away if we can get quorum all the time10:31
mdzI'll talk to sabdfl about what we can do about that10:32
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mdzKamion: yeah, having one window every 2 months means that it's very inconvenient if you miss it10:32
mdzwe've spent too much time on it; let's take this discussion to the ubuntu-devel list10:32
mdzespecially since the point is that not everyone can be present at the meeting ;-)10:32
mdzon to maintainer candidates10:32
mdzdo we actually need to look at MaintainerCandidates, or only the folks who are on the agenda proper?10:33
mdzMC is huge10:33
ograjust take the agenda10:33
KeybukKamion wanted us to look at MC itself10:33
Keybukunless I misinterpreted?10:33
Nafalloogra: ++10:33
KamionI wanted people not to be left out in the cold for a full month10:33
mdzSaravanan Raju, here?10:33
ogracould we first do the ppl on the agenda, i know some have to leave10:33
Kamionup to you how you prioritise it :)10:33
mdzJohn Levin, here?10:33
mdzMartin Krafft, here?10:33
mdzDarren Critchley, here?10:34
mdzDavid Walker, here?10:34
ogramdz, most of them arent even members yet10:34
mdzMarco Bonetti, here?10:34
mdzLuke Yelavich, here?10:34
mdzDiego Andrs Asenjo, here?10:34
mdzmoquist: here?10:34
mdzAmaya Rodrigo, here?10:34
ogramoquist isnt a maintainer ??10:34
mdzMonty Taylor, here?10:34
astharot-Gerardo Di Giacomo here10:35
mdzDavid Mandelberg, here?10:35
mdzastharot-: I am processing the list in order, please wait a moment10:35
mdzBrian Sutherland, here?10:35
astharot-sorry :P10:35
fabbionedoh.. Amaya did apply as maintainer? :)10:35
mdzJorgeOCastro, here?10:35
mdzImre Kaloz, here?10:35
jbaileyfabbione: Before I did, IIRC. =)10:35
dholbachfabbione: ages ago10:35
mdzMatthewParslow, here?10:35
ografabbione, i think only as member, there was no distinction at this time10:36
mdzfabbione: yes, though I don't think she has ever attended a meeting to be considered officially10:36
mdzMarioCarrion, here?10:36
mdzGoedsonPaixao, here?10:36
dholbachi will make another section on the Maintainer Candidates page and move all of those that need to show up again10:36
mdzBjrnOveGrtan, here?10:36
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mdzJavier Carranza, here?10:36
mdzdholbach: thanks10:36
mdzZac Brown, here?10:36
mdzGeorge Farris, here?10:36
mdzArnaud Vandyck, here?10:36
mdz Stephen Shirley, here?10:37
tseng|workcould they just speak up if they are here and on the list?10:37
mdztseng|work: not all at once10:37
Kamiontseng|work: we're nearly at the end anyway10:37
mdzFrodeDoeving, here?10:37
mdz Gabriel Puliatti, here?10:37
mdz\sh: you're here10:37
\shStephan Hermann is here10:37
mdzthat's not a very good hit rate10:37
=== siretart is shocked
pittiit's an extra meeting and it wasn't announced on the wiki page10:38
\shsiretat is also on the list (agenda)10:38
mdzdholbach, ogra: can either of you speak on behalf of \sh?10:38
JaneWactually it was on the wikipage10:38
=== ogra proposes to process tseng|work now, i know he urgently has to go
mdz\sh: we'll continue with the agenda in order10:38
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\shmdz: ah ok 10:38
ograto late :(10:38
JaneWand 2 e-mails were sent to the Ubuntu-devel list 10:38
JaneWgranted the second was like 10 mins before the meeting started10:38
mdkei was surprised by the meeting, the wiki page says 31st10:39
=== JaneW checks again
JohnDonghi, everyone :)10:39
mdzJohnDong: the tech board meeting is in progress10:39
mdzogra,dholbach: \sh?10:40
ogramdz, ok, \sh has done a handfull of packages on the review pages, the quality is ok and he has done a good amount for the CXX transition, i'd like to see him as a MOTU10:40
dholbachmdz: i can vouch for him as well10:40
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dholbach\sh: welcome in the MOTU world :-))10:41
ogra\sh, welcome in MOTU :)10:41
mdz\sh: do you know how to proceed?10:41
\shmdz: yeah10:41
JaneWto confirm the meeting was in the calendar, but the agenda date was not updated (sorry)10:41
mdzok, great10:41
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\shthx to everyone :) 10:41
mdz\sh: congratulations10:41
JaneWwelcome \sh10:41
=== pitti congratulates \sh
=== siretart congrats \sh :)
\shit's really an honour to work with u all :) a great community and a great team :)10:41
mdkenice one10:41
mdzJeff Buchbinder here?10:41
Nafallo\sh: congrats :-)10:41
mdzJeanRemyFalleri here?10:41
jdodsonJonDodson here.  fwiw.10:42
mdzok, that's it for MaintainerCandidates10:42
dokowho is ivoks?10:42
=== siretart raises his hand - huhu?
\shsiretat is on the list :) 10:42
mdzjdodson: I don't see you on the agenda or the candidates list10:42
ograivoks, you name ?10:42
mdkejdodson, wrong meeting i think10:42
ograyour even10:42
ivoksAnte Karamatic10:42
dholbachjdodson: you're on the community council list, right?10:42
pittimdz: astharot should be MaintainerCandidate10:42
dokoogra: he's not on the list?10:42
mdzgah, the page was rearranged while I was reading it :-)10:42
\shhehe :)10:42
ogradoko, who ?10:42
dholbachmdz: excusez-moi10:42
mdzso siretart and astharot remain10:43
seb128dholbach: nice :)10:43
mdz(followed by those on the agenda)10:43
jdodsonmdz, dholbach: no.  just here:)10:43
siretartah. :) 10:43
mdzogra,dholbach: can you speak for siretart?10:43
ograhe s 50% of the games team10:43
dholbachsiretart did a lot of work for 3 months in the MOTU world now10:44
ograand did a goood bunch of work for us already10:44
dholbachhe worked with us in the hoary-release roundup and i'm VERY happy with him10:44
mdzcan you vouch for the quality of his work, such that he should be able to upload packages without review?10:44
ograme to10:44
mdzok, that's sufficient for me to approve for universe upload status10:45
mdzKeybuk: siretart?10:45
Keybukyup, good for me10:45
ograyay, welcome, siretart 10:45
siretartthank you all!10:45
dholbachsiretart: it's great to have you with us... finally :-)10:45
mdzsiretart: congratulations10:45
ograsiretart, you got the lead of the MOTUGames team now ;)10:46
siretartYEAH! :)10:46
mdzastharot is next10:46
astharothere !10:46
=== pitti wants him
dholbachpitti's right hand :-)10:46
\shsiretart: congrats :) 10:46
mdzpitti: you have worked with him probably the most10:46
pittimdz: I vouch for him, he does an awesome job10:46
NafalloSimira: congrats :-)10:46
=== ogra agrees with pitti, based on pittis expertise
Keybukthat's plenty good enough for me, then10:46
pittimdz: he does universe security updates at an awesome pace10:46
Seveasastharot, just needs to remember to *attach* patches :)10:46
astharoteheh it's true! :)10:46
mdzastharot: have you been working with the MOTU team as well as pitti?10:46
pittiSeveas: indeed :-), but me as well10:47
astharotmdz: I worked with pitti mainly10:47
mdzastharot: you should definitely join #ubuntu-motu, etc. if you are not already there10:47
mdzit will be important to work closely with that team10:47
astharotmdz: I do10:47
astharotok, I didn't know10:47
mdzastharot: ogra and dholbach can guide you10:47
ograastharot, and probably take part in the MOTUSecurity team (if not lead it)10:47
=== dholbach welcomes astharot gladly
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=== ogra too
mdzok, approved10:47
mdzastharot: congratulations10:48
astharotthanks :)10:48
dholbachWOW :-)10:48
pittiAs long as we keep the policy that another member of the (uiniverse) security team approves patches, he should be able to upload10:48
=== ogra applauds astharot
mdkecomplimenti :)10:48
pittiastharot: congrats! I'm so glad to see you in :-)10:48
astharoteheh I'm glad too10:48
astharotthank you!10:48
=== \sh ^5s astharot
=== siretart applaudes as astharot
mdzpitti: yes, we'll handle -security/universe differently from universe in the development branches10:48
Nafalloastharot: congrats :-)10:48
mdznext agenda item is to consider dholbach for upload to main10:49
mdzKeybuk: ?10:49
ogra*REMINDER* all approved MOTUS, please put yourself on the MOTU page in the wiki *REMINDER*10:49
pittimdz: oh, astharot mainly fixes stable releases, for the development release we can mostly sync from Debian (I track that)10:49
dholbachogra: i was just about to do it10:49
KeybukI think he might be good enough to go without the training wheels now ;)10:49
ogradholbach, let the guys do some work too ;) delegating is magic ;)10:49
dholbachhaha... training wheels :-)10:49
seb128arf, daniel is going to break GNOME :)10:49
=== dholbach hugs seb128 :-)
pittiseb128: even worse than you do? *duck*10:50
ograseb128, we're sure you'll fix it afterwards ;)10:50
seb128somebody to blame for new gtk bogs :)10:50
dokoseb128: is there anything he didn't break? ;-)10:50
mdzif seb128 won't have a heart attack, I'm happy for dholbach to upload to main ;-)10:50
seb128pitti: right, that's a challenge :)10:50
pittiseb128: SCNR, you're great, you know that :-)10:50
seb128ah ah10:50
=== fabbione thumns up for dholbach
=== ogra hugs dholbach and seb128
mdzso, approved10:51
dholbachmerci beaucoup10:51
fabbionewell you get it10:51
mdzdholbach: congratulations10:51
Keybukdholbach: congrats, someone'll get you a red cap and a speedo ;)10:51
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mdkedholbach, :)10:51
seb128dholbach: welcome dude :)10:51
=== siretart applaudes to dholbach - great job! :)
ograKeybuk, with propeller ?10:51
mdzeveryone else on the agenda was already processed10:51
seb128dholbach: don't break everything as a welcome :p10:51
dholbachKeybuk: you're too kind :-)10:51
mdzexcept tseng who had to leave unfortunately10:51
Nafallodholbach: :-D congratulations!10:51
\shdholbach: congrats10:51
mdzI'll send him an email about rescheduling10:51
ogramdz, which is very sad, since it holds up the move of mono to main10:51
Keybukmdz: we could process him in absence?10:51
mdzKeybuk: hmm, I don't see why not10:52
mdzdoes anyone have anything to say?10:52
Keybukcertainly I've been relying on his packages for a while now, and he's impressed me, so I'd have no worries doing that10:52
=== X-Men- make his congratulations to astharot
thomthumbs up from me to tseng -> main10:52
ogramdz, i worked on the mono packages a lot, they are a real mess if they come from debian.... tseng did such an awesome job, that upstream wants to work with him10:53
ogra(upstream == novell)10:53
=== pitti notes that he approved mono for main inclusion
mdzI think tseng would do fine in main10:53
ograso an absolute thimbs up from me10:53
JaneWcool, so all on the agenda are approved?10:53
ograJaneW, yeah10:53
mdzJaneW: so it would seem10:53
JaneWI'll send out a note in summary10:54
JaneWto the devel list?10:54
mdztseng: congratulations in abstentia10:54
mdzJaneW: include it with the meeting summary?10:54
mdzI suppose it's worth a separate announcement10:54
Keybuksomeone should probably mail Brandon personally to inform him :p10:54
ograKeybuk, i'll do10:55
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mdzany other business?10:55
ograKeybuk, but he'll be here again in about 30min anyway10:55
Keybukwhile we've got time, do we want to broach the idea of adding another member to the TB (I guess all we could do is recommend to Mark) ?  or are we happy as it is?10:56
dokoyes, please let's announce "major" changes for the archives before packages are uploaded ...10:56
opimdz: it's not quite related to the TC, but I have a question about MOTU-ML10:56
JaneWmdz: ok I'll include in the summary, AND it can be a separte announcement as well. Anyone want to do the separte one, or shall I?10:56
ograopi, there is none yet10:56
opimdz: will all MOTU subsection (MOTU-Games) have separated ML10:56
ograopi, and we are not enough motus yet to have a MOTU ml10:57
opiogra: I know, I'm watchin http://lists.ubuntu.com on daily bassis10:57
mdzKeybuk: right, "Appointments to the board are made by Mark Shuttleworth subject to confirmation by a vote amongst the maintainers."10:57
dholbachopi: the consensus, unfortunately, is there will be no motu mailing lists yet10:57
opiOK, noted10:57
ograopi, if we are more then 50 we can probably think about it10:57
mdzKeybuk: so let's take that elsewhere, since he's not here10:57
dokowe need to have a bit more organization on on major changes in the archives, although more than one change in parallel is probably not avoidable10:57
mdzdoko: are you referring to xorg vs. g++-4.0?10:57
opiI need to get membership, and then I'll find someone who will help me improve my package-foo, that would be 50-1 :)10:58
ogradoko, have a proposal ? 10:58
dokomdz: yes, and dpkg10:58
dholbachopi: join #ubuntu-motu - we'll help you get there :-)10:58
opidholbach: after I'll attend CC :)10:58
dokothe proposal is simple: announce, what you plan, avoid doing things in parallel10:58
KamionFWIW I don't think we could have done either xorg or g++-4.0 significantly later; they were both "early breakage" items, and both took (are taking) a significant amount of time10:59
seb128what the issue with // changeS?10:59
seb128changes even10:59
seb128the sooner the better for such changes10:59
seb128and that doesn't make a big difference10:59
Keybukthis basically comes to "have a spec before major changes" ?10:59
ograwhich we already have ....11:00
dokoKeybuk: it may be informal, but people should know about it. Looking at all our specs, they are not very detailed11:00
mdzdoko: what were the problems which were caused by it?11:00
mdzwe fully intended to break major things at the same time during this cycle11:01
mdzperhaps there are other ways to address the problems, rather than breaking only one thing at a time11:01
dokomdz: the ABI transtionplan was to avoid a freeze, so we decided to finish the libs first11:02
mdzwe have a limited amount of time available to break things before we must start stabilization11:02
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dokomdz: I don't deny it, but there has to be time to announce things11:02
Seveasahh, so that's why dholbach is approved for main: fast breakage11:02
mdzdoko: what do you propose?11:02
dholbachdo i have a THAT bad reputation already?11:03
Keybukdholbach: second only to seb128 :p11:03
Keybukso at least you're in good company11:03
dokomdz: please scroll back: announce major changes, before you upload11:03
ogradoko, isnt it to late anyway ? we are in the middle of the transition now....11:03
mdzdoko: how far in advance?11:03
mdzogra: yes, but we can discuss what to do in the future11:04
dokomajor changes are planned for a longer time, so one 3 or 4 work days should be fine.11:04
JaneWmdz: I just became aware of the HoaryRelease schedule page on the main wiki today, we can make a similar one for Breezy addressing many of these questions and dates.11:04
dokoleaving room for coordination between us11:05
mdzJaneW: I created one just before the meeting ;-)11:05
lamontthere are advantages to breaking only one thing at a time... as it sits, most of the failures are obviously one of the 3 reasons, but some of them are less obvious'11:05
mdzlamont: but we can't do 3 2-week transitions serially; we lose too much time11:05
mdzI see no problem with requiring advance notice11:05
mdzso that at least everyone is aware that there could be multiple reasons for the breakage11:05
Keybukyeah, an advance e-mail to u-d would at least give people a heads-up that apt might not be their friend this week11:06
lamontmdz: true.  the fact that most of the failures are obvious which camp they belong to just means that we are "working in a target rich environment"11:06
dholbachKeybuk: and it will be easier for MOTU to set up transition lists11:07
mdzI would prefer to fix a number of days rather than deal in "working days"11:07
ogradholbach, i thought we go to RT, then it'll be easy anyway11:07
JaneWmdz: you are good!11:07
mdzso something like 4 days advance notice11:07
dokomdz: we do have a nice section in our spec template "packages affected", this section should be detailed in the announcement11:07
mdzJaneW: I have a time travel device11:07
dholbachogra: that's one of the point i missed quite often: a new upload of a library and the MOTU have to figure out themselves what's to fix11:07
dokomdz: yes, that looks fine11:07
ogradholbach, ah, yes, thats true11:08
mdzunfortunately, I don't think we have a place to document such conventions11:08
mdzdo we/11:08
dholbachogra: like X, like ogg/flac stuff, like ...11:08
dokomdz: I'll write a wiki page11:08
mdzdoko: ok, I think we have an index of maintainer documentation somewhere11:09
mdzdoko: so maybe link to a HandlingTransitions or such11:09
mdzthere is certainly more that we can say about transitions there as well11:09
mdzany other business before we close?  we're over time11:09
ograyeah, please no more transitions with wiki lists....the editing takes me more time then the package fix11:09
mdzok, meeting adjourned11:10
mdzthanks, everyone11:10
ivoksclap clap 11:10
dholbachthanks mdz11:10
mdkeogra, maybe you can consider access controlling the pages?11:10
mdzand welcome to all the new maintainers!11:10
dholbachogra: wiki lists are better than NO lists11:10
ogramdz, oh, do i need approval for mono to main ?11:10
=== fabbione orphans the kernel
=== ivoks congrats everyone
lamontdholbach: flat file lists work too, and have less editing pain11:10
ogradholbach, sure, but its a real PITA11:10
mdzogra: if pitti already reviewed it, then no11:10
mdkeogra, something like, maintainers can edit the pages, normal users not?11:11
ogramdke, its not that someone edits it....11:11
mdkeoh i c11:11
ogramdke, its the length of the lists and the lack of searching in test input boxes in ff11:11
ogratext even11:11
ograsladen, ?11:12
sladenogra: typo11:13
ograsladen, hi then :)11:13
zulfabbione: fine with me :)11:14
fabbionezul: ?11:14
fabbioneah the kernel..11:14
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opiwell, it's almost the time :-)11:28
opioh, 0.5h 11:29
SeveasCC is in 30 minutes :)11:29
=== mdke offers tea round
kassetrawhew!  When I first logged in, I thought I was late!11:30
dholbachmdke: merci beaucoup11:30
=== Seveas offers cookies
mdkeoooh cookies11:30
mdkehi kassetra 11:30
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ivoksi have strawberies... anyone? :)11:31
kassetraHi!  :)11:31
=== opi is going to get caffee
opiivoks: can you fax some? ;)11:31
dholbachivoks: hmmmmmm :-)11:31
mdkeivoks, nice one11:31
opiivoks: I'll pick up them tom. at office ;)11:31
HiddenWolfopi, that'd be called coffee :P11:31
kassetraopi: that tends to cause a fax jam.  ;)11:31
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mdkepainful but strangely amusing11:31
Seveasrofl kassetra 11:31
opiHiddenWolf: I don't know why I'm allways messing around this word11:31
opiHiddenWolf: maybe I just like it *too* much? :)11:32
opior, I lack of it when I'm mentioning it11:32
HiddenWolfopi, probably, you french? 11:32
opiHiddenWolf: Poland11:32
HiddenWolfopi, ah, ok11:32
opiHiddenWolf: we call it ,,kawa''11:33
opiHiddenWolf: where's w sounds like f11:33
ivoksopi: lol11:33
ivoksopi: we call it kava11:33
HiddenWolfopi, no suprize there :)11:33
opiivoks: well, you're balkan, no? :)11:33
ivoksbut we say w as v11:33
ivokssome say as f11:33
opican't we just call it tasteful-brown-wather? :)11:34
ivoksopi: balkan is difficult term, but yes :)11:34
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Seveastasteful brown water would be hot choco :)11:34
ivoksopi: polska?11:35
opiivoks: yup ;)11:35
opiSeveas: that would be a sticky-tasteful-brown-wather11:35
surakwhen I was a child, I used to say coffe is the dirt water from hell - it kept me awake for days!11:35
ivoksopi: so, today we fight for member status? :)11:36
opisurak: you where right at this :p11:36
opiivoks: it's not like a fight ;)11:36
opiivoks: you have some chances when you fight11:36
opiivoks: we're going to be reviewed by Council Of Evilness :)11:36
ivoksopi: well, that's fight11:36
ivoksyou have to stand up for your self11:37
surakCE: give us some coffe, and we will worship you :-)11:37
Seveaswho of you is pllying for membership (/me is)11:37
=== opi too
tjl2not me - just observing...11:37
=== ivoks is thinking... there is time to do one more cxx transition :)
opithen, MOTU11:37
opiand the World Domination11:38
ivoksopi: that would be Universe domination11:38
diemani might apply next month11:38
Simirathe meeting's in 20 mins, right?11:38
=== Seveas goes for motu after *paid* packaging experiments at work :)
kassetraI think I have already been made a member, but as I couldn't make the last meeting, I came to this one.11:38
SeveasSimira, yes11:38
diemandepends on if i get involved enough in the next month or so11:38
opiwell, the last point will be easy, as I'm a member of Dogbert's New Rulling Class11:38
diemanso far im just submitting bugs and doing a lot of stuff locally11:38
dieman45 installed ubuntu machines at work so far.11:39
opidieman: just hang around and you'll know would you like to share title with fsc^H^H^Hpeople like us. :)11:39
diemanjust need to reinstall 260 debian machines. ugh.11:39
opidieman: I can not compete there, not more than 10 ;)11:39
opidieman: you can try to move them to the Hoary11:40
Seveasdieman, i need to do ~3511:40
Seveasbut they want red hat on them11:40
JohnDongopi: not good idea11:40
Seveasi'm gonna push ubuntu until they either snap or fire me :)11:40
JohnDongI've tried11:40
opiJohnDong: unless it's an oldie11:40
opiJohnDong: the SID should move without much problems :-)11:40
JohnDongWoody to Warty was pretty awful11:40
JohnDongand Sid to Hoary DEFINITELY won't work11:40
diemanopi: i've got about 14 warty machines im going to be upgrading to hoary11:40
diemanopi: been doing them 'by hand' to ensure X works.11:41
JohnDongSid is much newer than Hoary11:41
JohnDongthat's why I can still get backports from Sid ;)11:41
JohnDongminus the GCC 411:41
Seveasyeah, glibc hell :)11:41
opiJohnDong: right, I've been reading about such move before Hoary was frozen11:41
Seveaseven sarge->hoary is hard11:41
jbaileySeveas: Hmm?11:41
\shdieman: which debian u r running on the servers?11:41
JohnDongBEFORE hoary was frozen11:41
JohnDongnow Hoary IS frozen11:41
dieman\sh: servers aren't debian for the most part, they are solaris.11:41
Seveasjbailey, when trying to move from sid to hoary you encounter some glibc 'problems'11:42
dieman\sh: these are mostly desktops and cluster machines.11:42
kassetraI do have to say that upgrading from Warty to Hoary was painful, but not nearly as painful as any other upgrade I've ever done.11:42
jbaileySeveas: Eh, really?  Sid to hoary ought to be fine.11:42
dieman\sh: the 260 debian boxes are woody + lots of local crap and backports11:42
jbaileyOh wait.11:42
dieman\sh: and local kernels, and etc.11:42
Seveassid has a newer glibc..11:42
dieman\sh: its very painful.11:42
jbaileySeveas: Right, but I think it downgrades safely.11:42
Kamiondowngrades are generally painful11:42
jbaileyYou can't move from the experimental glibc to Hoary.11:42
Seveasjbailey, i would be surprised :)11:42
opiwhatever you do, redoing 260 will be painful whatever you do11:43
dholbach b a c k p o r t s *SHUDDER*11:43
diemanopi: i've got help :)11:43
Kamionyou can do woody->warty->hoary (tediously), and you'll be able to do sarge->breezy11:43
jbaileyYou can move from experimental glibc to sid glibc to hoary, I think, though.  I didn't include the downgrade magic in Hoary.11:43
diemanopi: plus 109 of them are in labs, i can do those in about a day11:43
diemanopi: using fai. :)11:43
kassetrabackports are good!  :)11:43
\shdieman: ah...yeah i can imagine...quite the same situation we had at lycos with out debian servers11:43
mdkei'm with dholbach 11:43
diemankassetra: heh, they are good when someone is managing a backport and has time.11:43
=== ajmitch successfully did sid->breezy before the g++ & X move :)
kassetraand that's jdong for me, at least.  :)11:44
diemankassetra: its bad when you start piling them up locally and have to deal with security updates :)11:44
dholbachkassetra: most of the people, i helped to upgrade, who had severely fucked up systems, used backports which broke their upgrade paths :-/11:44
dieman\sh: heh11:44
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dieman\sh: i've got a few headless machines running ubuntu anyhow.11:44
opidholbach: you should see my old Debian box11:44
dieman\sh: this colo box runs sarge, tho.11:44
opidholbach: backports are at least in .deb form11:44
mdkealso its important that people realise that backports will inevitably not be as stable as the tested ubuntu packages11:44
kassetrawell, on my system, all of the backports upgraded flawlessly, it was xserver->xorg and nvidia upgrades that botched it.11:44
opidholbach: while my box was partly-this-partly-that-partly-from-sources11:45
dholbachopi: .deb can be EVERYTHING11:45
diemandholbach: like some of the experimental xf86 4.3 woody backports :)11:45
kassetrathe only backports I use are the ones that jdong builds, actually...11:45
Kamionwhich are about 50 times harder to get right than the average backport to start with. :)11:45
\shdieman: u have cfengine running, too?11:45
Kamion(xorg and nvidia that is)11:45
dieman\sh: yeah11:45
opidholbach: sure, but at least you have some tools to deal with it :-)11:45
dieman\sh: i've actually promised to put some cfengine examples on the web11:45
\shdieman: thats much nicer in a DC env11:45
dieman\sh: i need to do that soon.11:45
Seveastools can't beat bad packager11:45
opidholbach: it died before Sarge get in, so I'm not crying :P11:45
dholbachpeople should try get involved in the development cycle and do some GOOD work in something that is to be released11:46
dieman\sh: i've essentially got a unified cfengine config i've used from the old progeny stuff, to woody, to ubuntu hoary and warty11:46
opidholbach: actually, it died year ago.. man, there's still no Sarge ;}11:46
dieman\sh: the ability for cfengine to class things based on shell scripts is nice11:46
dholbachand backports for a half-a-year...11:46
dieman\sh: lsb_release -c -s is my friend :)11:46
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makogreetings everyone11:47
kassetrahello!  :)11:47
diemani should go get on the bus so i can join the metting from there.11:47
diemanmeeting, rather11:47
makomy network is *flakey*11:47
Seveasyou have 13 minutes dieman :)11:47
\shhey maki11:47
Seveasgreetings mako11:47
\shmako even :)11:47
diemanmako: thats what .edu networks are for! :)11:47
opimako: if you'll split, we'll badmouth about Ubuntu-CC ;)11:47
makowell, i'm connecting from one .edu to the other and they have both developed the jitters in the last hour11:48
makoin any case11:48
diemanmako: heh, nice.11:48
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\shdieman: for us it was quite difficult..we managed 3 different archs and 5 diff. unixes 11:48
makoalright.. the agenda has exploaded overnight.. always a good sign11:49
mdkehiya mako11:49
makomdke: greetings :)11:49
opi\sh: you should think about some intagration11:50
\shopi: I did....i'm not working for lycos anymore ,)11:50
opi\sh: ha ha11:50
Kamionmako: is it just me or does the agenda have stuff from four weeks ago?11:50
opi\sh: sounds like a solution to my problems at work :-)11:50
makoKamion: umm.. i think i cleaned it up11:51
mdke Rock the Casbah.11:51
Kamionthe LoCo stuff?11:51
makoKamion: we defered teh loco team mailing stuff from 2 weeks ago11:51
\shopi: hehe...well but right now the situation is not better 11:51
makoand the first candidates we considered last time and put off11:51
makothe rest haven't been looked at in a meeting yet11:52
makoKamion: yes, the first loco item is review11:52
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makosmurfix: you around?11:52
smurfix*yawn*  ;-)11:52
opismurfix: get a mug of tasteful-brown-wather11:53
\shah mr. uisdn ;)11:53
JaneWmako: get out of the park, I hear connectivity is generally better in doors :P11:54
=== robitaille wonders if coke counts as a "tasteful-brown-wather" drink...
Seveasrobitaille, only if it's neither decaf nor light :)11:55
smurfix\sh: I actually hope to outlive everybody who still remembers that stuff11:55
makoJaneW: it has been pretty nasty and cold since last thursday11:55
\shsmurfix: no way ;)11:55
makono park hacking for me lately :(11:55
opirobitaille: it counts as derusting liquid :-)11:55
makothat's gonna be me all summer though.. 11:56
opimako: go to the park with a laptop at my city11:56
opimako: there's no WiFi there11:56
ograwoah, joeys blog is heavy today....11:56
opimako: plus, you'll get robed ;)11:56
makonow that i have a laptop with a screen that take the sun, being inside on a nice day is hard to justify11:56
mdkehere you get your laptop full of water11:56
JaneWmako: making me jealous, winter has set in here, 12 degs (celcius) here atm11:56
opimdke: yup, rains all over the europe11:56
Seveashere in amsterdam they have wifi in bars :)11:56
\shJaneW: joburg or capetown?11:57
JaneW\sh: cape town11:57
opiSeveas: bah, I have a bar at my office :->11:57
makoJaneW: with a winter at 12d, don't expect too much sympathy :)11:57
makoJaneW: try -12 :P11:57
JaneWmako: true ;)11:57
opiSeveas: ok, a fridge with beer, but that's almost like it ;)11:57
opibefore we begin11:57
Simiraopi: no rain in Norway to day. Nice and sunny.11:57
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opimy boss posted a lousy joke toay11:57
opiwhat's boss fav. cake?11:58
opiwork harder11:58
Simirahi Nafallo. Congrats with what?11:58
makoi count two minutes11:58
opiit make no sesn in Polish, too11:58
opiso we posted something after that11:58
NafalloSimira: typo for siretart ;-)11:58
\shJaneW: snow on the mountains?11:58
opiscroll to the bottom ;)11:58
NafalloSimira: and hi *hugs* :-)11:58
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diemandamn freenode needs ident.11:58
Seveasopi, which one of those are you?11:59
JaneW\sh: not yet, but soon, it will drop to belwo 10 degs then11:59
Nafallodieman: it's not a must :-)11:59
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siretartNafallo: thanks :)11:59
dave_date --utc11:59
makoalright, we'll officially start in a couple minutes11:59
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Nafallosiretart: *s* :-)11:59
\shJaneW: but then you have the nicest season coming: the whales ;)11:59
makosabdfl will not be joining us today11:59
diemanNafallo: ahh, i guess only some of them do.11:59
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makodave_: greetings12:00
=== robertj lurks
=== craigaa waves hello to everyone
makowhich means you guys are stuck with the likes of myself, kamion and elmo :)12:00
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JaneW\sh: yes and wine and fires and chocolate can be quite fun ;)12:00
Seveasah well, could be worse :)12:00
Nafallodieman: AFAIK they only asks you if you have it, witch takes an awful time if you drop the packets ;-).12:00
=== JaneW shuts up
makoaganeda is up there and you have about -1 minutes to add something :)12:00
\shJaneW: oh yeah..stellenbosch ;)12:00
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diemanNafallo: i had at least 2 servers drop me without it.12:01
Nafallodieman: yay, I've been lucky then ;-)12:01
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ograSimira, i thought tea12:01
makoalright, lets get this party started12:01
makono wait12:01
diemanoh well.12:01

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