[02:28] <pitti> 22:00 CEST
[02:29] <pitti> argh, ECHAN, sorry
[08:07] <titus`> hello
[08:07] <mdke> hi titus` 
[08:09] <titus`> can I know what UTC time is it please ?
[08:09] <thom> 18:09
[08:10] <tseng|work> meeting is in ~2 hours
[08:10] <mdke> tech meeting
[08:11] <titus`> i'm waiting for the community council :)
[08:11] <mdke> titus`, thats in 4 hours
[08:11] <titus`> so 4 hours, thank you
[08:11] <mdke> titus`, for future use: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
[08:12] <titus`> ok, bookmarked
[08:13] <zul> titus` or you could open a terminal and go date --utc
[08:14] <titus`> better :)
[08:33] <Seveas> please, someone, put date -u in the topic :)
[08:33] <mdke> people asking won't read it
[08:33] <mdke> but we can try ;)
[08:47] <Burgundavia> did anybody email -users and -devel about the meeting being moved back 2 hrs?
[08:47] <dholbach> hm?
[08:47] <dholbach> first one will be a TB catch up meeting
[08:47] <Burgundavia> the CC meetin, was it not originally at 24h
[08:48] <dholbach> no 22 utc
[08:48] <Burgundavia> oh
[08:48] <dholbach> i directly edited the calendar
[08:48] <Burgundavia> that is odd
[08:48] <Burgundavia> when?
[08:48] <dholbach> after the last one :-)
[08:49] <Burgundavia> oh, ok, as long as it was not today
[08:49] <Burgundavia> my mind playing funny tricks
[08:52] <dholbach> wow
[08:53] <tseng|work> wow!
[08:54] <ogra> wow ?
[09:00] <mdke> just a regular day for you Burgundavia 
[09:00] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:01] <opi> hi guys
[09:01] <opi> it's +1 to the meeting? or is that +3?
[09:01] <mdke> +1 to tech meeting
[09:01] <mdke> +3 to CC
[09:01] <mdke> /topic
[09:01] <opi> oh, thanks mdke :)
[09:01] <opi> mdke: yup I just rised my head from a pillow :)
[09:49] <zul> hey JaneW
[09:49] <JaneW> hi zul
[09:49] <tseng|work> hi zul, jane
[09:49] <zul> hey tseng|work 
[09:49] <JaneW> hi tseng|work 
[09:50] <\sh> good evening :)
[09:52] <lamont> evening JaneW 
[09:52] <JaneW> lo \sh
[09:52] <dholbach> hellas mvo
[09:53] <mvo> hey dholbach 
[09:53] <dholbach> hey JaneW, lamont, zul, tseng|work, \sh :-)
[09:53] <\sh> huhu dholbach :)
[09:53] <JaneW> \sh btw are you South African? (originally)
[09:54] <ogra> hehe
[09:54] <\sh> JaneW: no :)
[09:54] <ogra> lol
[09:54] <JaneW> \sh, I asked because of the bilton thing
[09:54] <ogra> JaneW, he'd love to
[09:54] <JaneW> ;)
[09:54] <JaneW> hey dholbach 
[09:54] <\sh> JaneW: but my ex-wife comes from P.M.
[09:54] <zul> heh...i lived in africa for 8 years
[09:54] <JaneW> oic!
[09:55] <\sh> JaneW: and when I was visiting ZA I became addicted to biltong :) and chili cheese burgers from coconut grove@durban beach front :)
[09:55] <JaneW> \hehe
[09:55] <lamont> Kamion: you around?
[09:55] <JaneW> your name *could* be SA too
[09:55] <Treenaks> JaneW: that's because of all the German and Dutch influence
[09:55] <\sh> JaneW: yeah I know :) I saw also some german city names there :)
[09:55] <\sh> JaneW: where u coming from?
[09:56] <opi> OK, I'll spy on you gus because I have nothing better to do untill CC will start :-)
[09:56] <JaneW> \sh you mean like Heidelberg!? *LOL*
[09:56] <\sh> JaneW: right :)
[09:57] <dholbach> haha... heidelberg :-)
[09:57] <zul> hey jeff
[09:57] <jbailey> Heya Chuck
[09:57] <\sh> JaneW: btw...there is a guy from .fi he wants to get this biltong connection working too :)
[09:58] <\sh> dholbach: it was funny to see this city name on a highway in ZA...
[09:58] <doko> hi
[09:58] <ivoks> hi all
[09:58] <\sh> hey doko 
[09:58] <dholbach> \sh: you thought you took the wrong crossing, hm? :-)
[09:58] <JaneW> dholbach: don't laugh we actually have 2 towns called Heidelberg in SA!
[09:59] <\sh> dholbach: hey...I was sitting in a car with 4 ZA indians on the way to joburg
[09:59] <dholbach> JaneW: i dont :-)
[09:59] <pitti> Moin
[09:59] <tseng|work> meeting time.
[09:59] <tseng|work> hi pitti!
[09:59] <mdz> 15 second by ntp.
[09:59] <JaneW> \sh: yes biltong is a good SA export, of course you'd get locked up trying to take any to a place like australia ;)
[10:00] <mdz> welcome, everyone
[10:00] <mdz> let's begin
[10:00] <\sh> dholbach: just in front of the city frontiers the locale police of joburg had a test of new recruiters...they were quite surprised, a paleface sitting with 4 indians in a car 
[10:00] <mdz> Keybuk notified me that he may be ~10 minutes late
[10:00] <mdz> so we'll need to wait for him in order to process maintainer candidates
[10:00] <mdz> but if there is any other business, we can discuss it while we wait
[10:00] <\sh> JaneW: it's not even allowed here in germany :( but when you enter germany via terminal 2 from heathrow u have luck and no customs is controlling (if you're european)
[10:01] <Treenaks> mdz: Maintainer or MemberCandidates?
[10:01] <\sh> ok
[10:01] <mdz> Treenaks: both
[10:01] <pitti> mdz: can we hot-add postgresql to the agenda?
[10:01] <dholbach> Treenaks: members are in CC meeting
[10:01] <mdz> pitti: sure, what's the issue?
[10:01] <dholbach> ah ok
[10:01] <fabbione> mdz: and TB meeting time rotation please
[10:01] <pitti> mdz: the current breezy packages are still the "old" architecture, I'd like to put in the new architecture as in Debian experimental
[10:01] <JaneW> maybe mention that the CC meeting follows at 22:00 UTC?
[10:01] <Treenaks> dholbach: oh wait.. *wrong agenda*
[10:02] <pitti> mdz: I won't support the current packages for Sarge+1 anyway, so Breezy would be the first distro with 8.0 and the multicluster architecture
[10:02] <mdz> pitti: are you confident that the packages can be stabilized by featurefreeze?
[10:02] <doko> pitti: hold on! let's finish one of the three things we started ...
[10:02] <ogra> doko, why ? its more fun....
[10:02] <pitti> mdz: yes, I hack a lot of them during my free time and they have almost all of the features of the current packages
[10:02] <pitti> doko: ?
[10:02] <mdz> pitti: are there upgrade issues to consider?
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: there is a transition package to postgresql-7.4, and a pg_upgradecluster script to transition to 8.0
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: a mere dist-upgrade will settle everything for you
[10:03] <Treenaks> pitti: a working upgrade script?!
[10:03] <doko> pitti: how many packages have to be changed? let's wait one or two weeks until xorg and C++ ABI are in a usable state
[10:03] <mdz> pitti: so postgresql_7.4.5 will be superseded by postgresql_8.0?
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: actually by postgresql-7.4
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: -8.0 can be installed in parallel
[10:04] <mdz> doko: the question is whether we will do it for breezy
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: the biggest piece of work is the libpq3 -> libpq4 transition
[10:04] <mdz> pitti: ok, so a dist-upgrade does not upgrade you to 8.0
[10:04] <doko> ok
[10:04] <ogra> doko, i thought main was done already
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: no, the purpose of the new arch was to explicitly avoid database upgrades during package upgrades
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: that only led to trouble
[10:04] <ogra> doko, CXX that it...
[10:04] <mdz> pitti: and you do not mind supporting both 7.4 and 8.0 in a stable release?
[10:05] <pitti> mdz: since I will do it anyway for Sarge+1, and upstream is very nice, I don't mind
[10:05] <mdz> pitti: ok, I have no problem then
[10:05] <pitti> mdz: for bigger vendors like ISPs it is nice to be able to offer several versions and multiple clustes, so I'd like to keep 7.4 around
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: it would require to minimally-change ~20 packages for libpq4
[10:06] <fabbione> pitti: we need to talk about pgsql 8.0
[10:06] <fabbione> but at a later stage
[10:06] <astharot-> hi
[10:06] <doko> pitti: please don't start now, but in June first 
[10:06] <pitti> doko: that's fine for me
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: the point is, the current packages are a PITA to maintain and a PITA for upgrading users
[10:06] <doko> pitti: thanks
[10:06] <mdz> ok, fabbione: meeting times?
[10:06] <pitti> mdz: I don't want to support it longer than necessary
[10:07] <fabbione> mdz: yes. we need to rotate the meeting time to get other people too
[10:07] <fabbione> mdz: it was proposed and approved but never really took place
[10:07] <pitti> doko: I'm not in a hurry, June will be more than fine
[10:08] <JaneW> I second that
[10:08] <mdz> fabbione: what do you suggest?
[10:08] <fabbione> mdz: mako suggested something like 20:00 UTC and 10:00 UTC?
[10:08] <fabbione> mdz: or something along that line
[10:08] <ogra> sounds good
[10:08] <JaneW> works for me
[10:08] <fabbione> mdz: my original suggestion was different
[10:08] <mdz> fabbione: it is necessary that I be awake during the meeting
[10:08] <pitti> ogra: yeah, nice for Europe
[10:08] <fabbione> but apparently nobody liked it
[10:08] <ogra> yep
[10:09] <mdz> 1000 UTC is 0300 for me
[10:09] <\sh> yes...directly in my lunch pause :)
[10:09] <fabbione> mdz: the point is whatever rotation we do, somebody needs to be awake
[10:09] <fabbione> mdz: and uk didn't like the original proposal
[10:09] <JaneW> how bad is 6:00UTC?
[10:09] <doko> it would be nice not to have a 20:00 UTC meeting in end of June
[10:09] <doko> JaneW, yes!
[10:09] <pitti> Hi Keybuk 
[10:09] <Burgundavia> 11pm our time, JaneW
[10:09] <JaneW> are people in the states still up then?
[10:09] <mdz> Keybuk: we briefly discussed postgresql 8.0, and are now talking about meeting scheduling
[10:10] <mdz> Keybuk: (while waiting for you so that we can process maintainers)
[10:10] <Burgundavia> JaneW, by our, I mean mdz and myself
[10:10] <Keybuk> did you get my text?
[10:10] <mdz> JaneW: I'm often awake then, but it means the meeting will have to be strictly time-limited so that I get to sleep at a reasonable hour
[10:10] <mdz> Keybuk: yes
[10:10] <JaneW> Burgundavia: ok, and the Canadians etc too of course
[10:10] <\sh> siretat will join the meeting between 20:30 and 20:45 utc he has a schedule 
[10:10] <mdz> Keybuk: you beat your estimate by 20 seconds
[10:11] <Keybuk> what meeting times are we considering?
[10:11] <Burgundavia> JaneW, that is terrible time for east coast people/brazial people
[10:11] <Keybuk> given this current time already seems to be impossible for sabdfl to make
[10:11] <JaneW> mdz: it;s 10:11pm now, and the CC meeting is 12am my time :P
[10:11] <mdz> Keybuk: fabbione proposed 1000 UTC, but that's firmly in sleep territory for me
[10:11] <fabbione> Keybuk: 06:00 UTC and 20:00 UTC
[10:11] <fabbione> in rotation
[10:11] <fabbione> so that we can alternate
[10:12] <Keybuk> 6 utc is too early for me to function properly (or indeed, make, usually)
[10:12] <mdz> JaneW: yes, but I have to be lucid for TB meetings :-)
[10:12] <doko> what about 18:00 UTC?
[10:12] <mdz> 1800 UTC is no problem for me
[10:12] <fabbione> well clearly in rotation somebody needs to sacrify a bit
[10:13] <JaneW> I could do 1800 UTC, but 1900 would be better
[10:13] <doko> is this ok for jbailey, or earlier? we did start with 16:00 UTC
[10:13] <fabbione> but that would give other continets the possibility to partecipate as well
[10:13] <mdz> basically 1700-0500 can be made to work for me
[10:13] <jbailey> doko: Yup.
[10:13] <Keybuk> fabbione: the problem with the TB meeting is that we've such as small Q, for even one of us to be unable to make it or insufficiently lucid, defaults the point
[10:13] <Keybuk> unlike the CC members, who are ten a penny :p
[10:13] <JaneW> ok, how many Australians are there?
[10:13] <pitti> mdz: well, 0500 is still almost night, but doable
[10:13] <jbailey> doko: Pretty much any night time that is good for Europe is going to be good for north america, and any morning that's good for mdz will be good for those of us east of him. =)
[10:13] <fabbione> Keybuk: well that's an issue that can be addressed expanding the TB
[10:14] <Seveas> Now here's an idea: let everybody write down his/her doable time and send it to JaneW, she can pick a time that's reasonable for all
[10:14] <ogra> JaneW, none
[10:14] <fabbione> Keybuk: as it is now we are cutting away a good portion of the community
[10:14] <JaneW> Seveas: good idea
[10:14] <fabbione> and i don't find it sensible at all
[10:14] <JaneW> howeveer I will have to make some 'executive decisions' I am sure ;)
[10:14] <mdz> Keybuk: huh?
[10:14] <pitti> we also have to consider people from e. g. Asia
[10:14] <mdz> last I checked the CC and TB had a similar number of members
[10:14] <Keybuk> I thought CC had 5 ?
[10:15] <opi> Seveas: I suggest same thing to Mako about CC ;)
[10:15] <JaneW> does sabdfl need/want to be at these meetings?
[10:15] <JaneW> if yes, what times is HE available?
[10:15] <pitti> JaneW: he has a vote, he should be
[10:15] <opi> JaneW: he's on CC from time to time
[10:15] <Seveas> sabdfl wants to be on CC generally afaik
[10:15] <mdz> Keybuk: 4
[10:15] <mdz> Keybuk: The Community Council is constituted as follows: Benjamin Hill, Mark Shuttleworth, Colin Watson, and James Troup
[10:16] <Keybuk> yeah, just read that :)  Somehow I thought lamont was on that too
[10:16] <Keybuk> so ignore me :p
[10:16] <mdz> JaneW: sabdfl and Keybuk are in the same time zone
[10:16] <mdz> physically anyway
[10:16] <JaneW> yes, which is similar to mine
[10:16] <lamont> Keybuk: I show up and give my opinion from time to time... but am on neither board
[10:16] <dholbach> i think we should pick some times that fit for the most, make the time frame a BIT bigger, so it will hurt a BIT, and then start rotating
[10:17] <mdz> I can give a 12-hour window, 1700-0500 UTC for the start of a meeting
[10:17] <JaneW> can we try 6:00 and 20:00 and see how that goes?
[10:17] <Keybuk> for me, 1000-2359UTC
[10:18] <\sh> i don't mind the times....when I know when the meeting starts i'm there...even during work hours or dream hours
[10:18] <Keybuk> or I may mean 0900-2300UTC, I'm not sure which way the math works :p
[10:18] <Kamion> (sorry for lateness, etc.)
[10:18] <JaneW> thanks \sh :)
[10:18] <mdz> JaneW: we can try 0600 next tiime, yes
[10:18] <dholbach> \sh: same for me
[10:18] <pitti> works for Europe
[10:18] <fabbione> yeps
[10:18] <JaneW> mdz if it's poorly attended or doesn;t work for you etc, we can strap the idea?
[10:18] <mdz> JaneW: for me, anyway
[10:18] <mdz> JaneW: I think it's worse for Keybuk
[10:18] <mdz> and sabdfl
[10:18] <Keybuk> yeah, I almost certainly won't make a 0600UTC meeting
[10:18] <Keybuk> not entirely sure Mark will eitehr
[10:19] <fabbione> but that would be like once every second week
[10:19] <JaneW> it's 7am then isn;t it?
[10:19] <ogra> yeps
[10:19] <pitti> JaneW: yes, and 8 in summer
[10:19] <dholbach> and if we rotated the time ever two weeks?
[10:19] <JaneW> so, what;s the problem?
[10:19] <Kamion> pitti: for the UK it's 6am in winter and 7am in summer
[10:19] <mdz> there is more than one problem
[10:19] <Keybuk> JaneW: 7am UK in summer, 6am in winter
[10:19] <seb128> pitti: there is one hour difference between you and uk
[10:19] <mdz> sabdfl often can't make these meetings, regardless of the timing
[10:20] <mdz> Keybuk and I are 8 hours apart, so we're fairly restricted there already
[10:20] <Kamion> I start after we've got the kid to school, which is 9am
[10:20] <opi> JaneW: me too, but I have to get to the office so it's another ~0.5h
[10:20] <JaneW> Kamion: that's why 15:00 - 18:00 UTC is not ideal for me (kids)
[10:21] <pitti> I think the idea with the disc-shaped Earth a few centuries back was not at all that bad...
[10:21] <mdz> if we don't have sabdfl, then we need to accomodate both Keybuk and myself with regard to times
[10:21] <JaneW> ok mdz, it;s obvious you just have to move ;)
[10:21] <opi> pitti: unless you're not a sailor ;)
[10:21] <Kamion> of course, as far as the TB goes, quoracy is more important, so it doesn't matter *too* much if (say) I can't make every meeting, but somebody should ask sabdfl
[10:21] <opi> pitti: s/not//
[10:21] <mdz> JaneW: then people will just complain that we're scheduling against the US
[10:21] <ogra> pitti, oh, that changed ?
[10:22] <mdz> and excluding that bit of the community
[10:22] <mdz> if you guys want to try the next meeting without me, that's fine
[10:22] <mdz> but if only one member of the board can attend, not much will get done
[10:22] <Keybuk> we tried that last week ;)
[10:22] <JaneW> er no, we tried that last week...
[10:22] <mdz> right
[10:22] <JaneW> that's why we are back now ;)
[10:23] <pitti> mdz: can we do the idea of the "every CC member states his available times and we take the intersection"?
[10:23] <ogra> pitti, its TB here
[10:23] <doko> pitti: empty set ;-)
[10:23] <mdz> pitti: that's how we got the current time
[10:23] <JaneW> speaking of which, now that Kamion is here should we go back to point 1, since this argument will probably never be concluded...
[10:23] <mdz> pitti: the complaint is that while the board members can attend, many community members can't
[10:24] <fabbione> somehow there are 2 problems
[10:24] <mdz> JaneW: eh?
[10:24] <pitti> mdz: right, I know, but without board membery community folks can't be approved anyway
[10:24] <fabbione> 1) time rotation
[10:24] <dholbach> i think most guys will "prepare" themselves, if they know a date and time (whenever it is)
[10:24] <fabbione> 2) TB is too small to cover 24hour community
[10:24] <fabbione> both of them needs to be addressed imho
[10:24] <Nafallo> fabbione: ++
[10:24] <JaneW> er were we waiting on kamion for a maintainer candidate?
[10:25] <pitti> idea: every meeting is 6 hours later than the previous one
[10:25] <JaneW> maybe I missed something
[10:25] <Kamion> JaneW: I'm not a TB member; I don't get a vote there
[10:25] <mdz> a larger TB is not a good solution to a scheduling problem
[10:25] <fabbione> pitti: that was what mako and I proposed for the CC
[10:25] <mdz> JaneW: we were waiting on Keybuk
[10:25] <pitti> then all folks should be able to attend at least 2/4 in a month
[10:25] <fabbione> pitti: it didn't work
[10:25] <\sh> question i have: do we need a TB meeting every 2nd week?
[10:25] <pitti> fabbione: ok :-(
[10:25] <ogra> JaneW, for maintainer candidates we're waiting for siretart
[10:25] <mdz> \sh: yes
[10:25] <dholbach> \sh: yes, i think so
[10:25] <Kamion> I think it's far more important that general community members be able to attend CC meetings than TB meetings
[10:25] <Keybuk> I think both mdz and I ignored the last attempt at rotation in the hope it'd go away :p
[10:25] <Seveas> \sh, see the calendar
[10:25] <mdz> pitti: there are only 2 per month
[10:25] <fabbione> pitti: mainly because nobody can deal with 1 bad wake up over 4 :(
[10:26] <fabbione> 4 meetings...
[10:26] <fabbione> (2 months)
[10:26] <\sh> mdz: ok for really technical stuff ok..but what about the community tb stuff? this should go every 4 weeks, and when the wanna be TB members wants to be in, they have only one appointment 
[10:26] <Kamion> \sh: by the time people are coming up for maintainership approval, their contributions ought to be obvious even in absentia
[10:26] <dholbach> fabbione has  a point - i think it's not that bad
[10:26] <mdz> \sh: technical stuff -> TB, community stuff -> CC
[10:27] <Kamion> \sh: if they aren't, they shouldn't be approved yet (he says making a wild generalisation)
[10:27] <\sh> mdz: I was thinking about upload possibility for members
[10:27] <mdz> Kamion: for discussion, it's useful for the persons involved in a project/idea to be present
[10:27] <mdz> Kamion: sometimes a proxy works, but often not
[10:27] <siretart> re
[10:27] <\sh> mdz: CC is something else
[10:27] <ogra> mdz, i think \sh meant MOTU approvals
[10:27] <siretart> hi folks, just arrived :)
[10:27] <\sh> ogra: right
[10:27] <ogra> siretart, heya
[10:27] <mdz> \sh: that means waiting a full month just to get an answer for a candidate, and that is too long
[10:27] <\sh> mdz: but then we can come to a conclusion for the times :) 
[10:28] <mdz> \sh: I don't see how it helps
[10:28] <mdz> we have exactly the same scheduling problem, only less frequently
[10:28] <\sh> mdz: if there is only one meeting once a month for approval and that is, lets say, 6am UTC, so the people are there, because this is the only date for it..
[10:29] <JaneW> hi siretart
[10:29] <dholbach> what about fabbione's point? who can't cope with one "bad wake up" in 4 meetings? this, to me, seems to be the only solution to this
[10:29] <Kamion> \sh: if you can make totally arbitrary times, you're a lucky man. Not everyone can.
[10:29] <siretart> hi JaneW, hello ogra 
[10:29] <mdz> dholbach: I don't see how that solves the problem
[10:30] <mdz> dholbach: 4 meetings = 2 months
[10:30] <lamont> mdz: it shares the pain
[10:30] <fabbione> mdz: as lamont said
[10:30] <dholbach> yes, if we rotated times properly
[10:30] <JaneW> and allows various timezones/continents to get involved, even if they only join in once every 2 months
[10:30] <Keybuk> dholbach: clearly some people can't cope with one "bad wake up" for the sole time they need TB for something ... otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion
[10:30] <fabbione> mdz: basically of 4 meetings you get 2 of them during working hours, 1 a bit late in the eveining and only one as bad wake up
[10:30] <mdz> consider that you're applying for maintainership
[10:30] <lamont> mdz: and basically means that you can count on being totally useless for one day every 2 months. :)
[10:31] <\sh> Kamion: well, when I have a schedule I can try to attend, if not, I can't 
[10:31] <surak> lamont: that's almost a booze - only missing beer
[10:31] <JaneW> lamont: aren't you usually? *duck*
[10:31] <lamont> JaneW: nearly always, dear. :-)
[10:31] <Kamion> \sh: even if people know in advance that really doesn't guarantee that other real life commitments that are more important than a volunteer project won't step in
[10:31] <mdz> the problem more or less goes away if we can get quorum all the time
[10:32] <lamont> Kamion++
[10:32] <mdz> I'll talk to sabdfl about what we can do about that
[10:32] <JaneW> ok.
[10:32] <mdz> Kamion: yeah, having one window every 2 months means that it's very inconvenient if you miss it
[10:32] <mdz> we've spent too much time on it; let's take this discussion to the ubuntu-devel list
[10:32] <mdz> especially since the point is that not everyone can be present at the meeting ;-)
[10:32] <JaneW> heh
[10:32] <mdz> on to maintainer candidates
[10:33] <mdz> do we actually need to look at MaintainerCandidates, or only the folks who are on the agenda proper?
[10:33] <mdz> MC is huge
[10:33] <ogra> just take the agenda
[10:33] <Keybuk> Kamion wanted us to look at MC itself
[10:33] <Keybuk> unless I misinterpreted?
[10:33] <Nafallo> ogra: ++
[10:33] <Kamion> erm
[10:33] <Kamion> I wanted people not to be left out in the cold for a full month
[10:33] <mdz> Saravanan Raju, here?
[10:33] <ogra> could we first do the ppl on the agenda, i know some have to leave
[10:33] <Kamion> up to you how you prioritise it :)
[10:33] <mdz> John Levin, here?
[10:33] <mdz> Martin Krafft, here?
[10:34] <mdz> Darren Critchley, here?
[10:34] <mdz> David Walker, here?
[10:34] <ogra> mdz, most of them arent even members yet
[10:34] <mdz> Marco Bonetti, here?
[10:34] <mdz> Luke Yelavich, here?
[10:34] <mdz> Diego Andrs Asenjo, here?
[10:34] <mdz> moquist: here?
[10:34] <mdz> Amaya Rodrigo, here?
[10:34] <ogra> moquist isnt a maintainer ??
[10:34] <mdz> Monty Taylor, here?
[10:35] <astharot-> Gerardo Di Giacomo here
[10:35] <mdz> David Mandelberg, here?
[10:35] <mdz> astharot-: I am processing the list in order, please wait a moment
[10:35] <mdz> Brian Sutherland, here?
[10:35] <astharot-> sorry :P
[10:35] <fabbione> doh.. Amaya did apply as maintainer? :)
[10:35] <mdz> JorgeOCastro, here?
[10:35] <mdz> Imre Kaloz, here?
[10:35] <jbailey> fabbione: Before I did, IIRC. =)
[10:35] <dholbach> fabbione: ages ago
[10:35] <mdz> MatthewParslow, here?
[10:36] <ogra> fabbione, i think only as member, there was no distinction at this time
[10:36] <mdz> fabbione: yes, though I don't think she has ever attended a meeting to be considered officially
[10:36] <mdz> MarioCarrion, here?
[10:36] <mdz> GoedsonPaixao, here?
[10:36] <dholbach> i will make another section on the Maintainer Candidates page and move all of those that need to show up again
[10:36] <mdz> BjrnOveGrtan, here?
[10:36] <mdz> Javier Carranza, here?
[10:36] <mdz> dholbach: thanks
[10:36] <mdz> Zac Brown, here?
[10:36] <mdz> George Farris, here?
[10:36] <mdz> Arnaud Vandyck, here?
[10:37] <mdz>  Stephen Shirley, here?
[10:37] <tseng|work> could they just speak up if they are here and on the list?
[10:37] <mdz> tseng|work: not all at once
[10:37] <Kamion> tseng|work: we're nearly at the end anyway
[10:37] <mdz> FrodeDoeving, here?
[10:37] <mdz>  Gabriel Puliatti, here?
[10:37] <mdz> \sh: you're here
[10:37] <\sh> Stephan Hermann is here
[10:37] <mdz> that's not a very good hit rate
[10:38] <pitti> it's an extra meeting and it wasn't announced on the wiki page
[10:38] <\sh> siretat is also on the list (agenda)
[10:38] <mdz> dholbach, ogra: can either of you speak on behalf of \sh?
[10:38] <JaneW> actually it was on the wikipage
[10:38] <mdz> \sh: we'll continue with the agenda in order
[10:38] <\sh> mdz: ah ok 
[10:38] <ogra> to late :(
[10:38] <JaneW> and 2 e-mails were sent to the Ubuntu-devel list 
[10:38] <JaneW> granted the second was like 10 mins before the meeting started
[10:39] <mdke> i was surprised by the meeting, the wiki page says 31st
[10:39] <JohnDong> hi, everyone :)
[10:39] <mdz> JohnDong: the tech board meeting is in progress
[10:39] <JohnDong> sorry
[10:40] <mdz> ogra,dholbach: \sh?
[10:40] <ogra> mdz, ok, \sh has done a handfull of packages on the review pages, the quality is ok and he has done a good amount for the CXX transition, i'd like to see him as a MOTU
[10:40] <dholbach> mdz: i can vouch for him as well
[10:40] <Keybuk> \sh++
[10:40] <mdz> agreed
[10:40] <ogra> yay
[10:41] <dholbach> \sh: welcome in the MOTU world :-))
[10:41] <ogra> \sh, welcome in MOTU :)
[10:41] <mdz> \sh: do you know how to proceed?
[10:41] <\sh> mdz: yeah
[10:41] <JaneW> to confirm the meeting was in the calendar, but the agenda date was not updated (sorry)
[10:41] <mdz> ok, great
[10:41] <\sh> thx to everyone :) 
[10:41] <mdz> \sh: congratulations
[10:41] <JaneW> welcome \sh
[10:41] <\sh> it's really an honour to work with u all :) a great community and a great team :)
[10:41] <mdke> nice one
[10:41] <mdz> Jeff Buchbinder here?
[10:41] <Nafallo> \sh: congrats :-)
[10:41] <mdz> JeanRemyFalleri here?
[10:42] <jdodson> JonDodson here.  fwiw.
[10:42] <mdz> ok, that's it for MaintainerCandidates
[10:42] <doko> who is ivoks?
[10:42] <ivoks> me
[10:42] <\sh> siretat is on the list :) 
[10:42] <mdz> jdodson: I don't see you on the agenda or the candidates list
[10:42] <ogra> lol
[10:42] <ogra> ivoks, you name ?
[10:42] <mdke> jdodson, wrong meeting i think
[10:42] <ogra> your even
[10:42] <ivoks> Ante Karamatic
[10:42] <dholbach> jdodson: you're on the community council list, right?
[10:42] <pitti> mdz: astharot should be MaintainerCandidate
[10:42] <doko> ogra: he's not on the list?
[10:42] <mdz> gah, the page was rearranged while I was reading it :-)
[10:42] <\sh> hehe :)
[10:42] <ogra> doko, who ?
[10:42] <dholbach> mdz: excusez-moi
[10:43] <mdz> so siretart and astharot remain
[10:43] <seb128> dholbach: nice :)
[10:43] <mdz> (followed by those on the agenda)
[10:43] <jdodson> mdz, dholbach: no.  just here:)
[10:43] <siretart> ah. :) 
[10:43] <mdz> ogra,dholbach: can you speak for siretart?
[10:43] <ogra> he s 50% of the games team
[10:44] <dholbach> siretart did a lot of work for 3 months in the MOTU world now
[10:44] <ogra> and did a goood bunch of work for us already
[10:44] <dholbach> he worked with us in the hoary-release roundup and i'm VERY happy with him
[10:44] <mdz> can you vouch for the quality of his work, such that he should be able to upload packages without review?
[10:44] <ogra> me to
[10:44] <ogra> yep
[10:44] <dholbach> absolutely
[10:45] <mdz> ok, that's sufficient for me to approve for universe upload status
[10:45] <mdz> Keybuk: siretart?
[10:45] <Keybuk> yup, good for me
[10:45] <ogra> yay, welcome, siretart 
[10:45] <siretart> thank you all!
[10:45] <dholbach> siretart: it's great to have you with us... finally :-)
[10:45] <mdz> siretart: congratulations
[10:46] <ogra> siretart, you got the lead of the MOTUGames team now ;)
[10:46] <siretart> YEAH! :)
[10:46] <mdz> astharot is next
[10:46] <astharot> here !
[10:46] <dholbach> pitti's right hand :-)
[10:46] <\sh> siretart: congrats :) 
[10:46] <mdz> pitti: you have worked with him probably the most
[10:46] <astharot> eheh
[10:46] <pitti> mdz: I vouch for him, he does an awesome job
[10:46] <Nafallo> Simira: congrats :-)
[10:46] <Keybuk> that's plenty good enough for me, then
[10:46] <pitti> mdz: he does universe security updates at an awesome pace
[10:46] <Nafallo> oops
[10:46] <Seveas> astharot, just needs to remember to *attach* patches :)
[10:46] <astharot> eheh it's true! :)
[10:46] <mdz> astharot: have you been working with the MOTU team as well as pitti?
[10:47] <pitti> Seveas: indeed :-), but me as well
[10:47] <astharot> mdz: I worked with pitti mainly
[10:47] <mdz> astharot: you should definitely join #ubuntu-motu, etc. if you are not already there
[10:47] <mdz> it will be important to work closely with that team
[10:47] <astharot> mdz: I do
[10:47] <astharot> ok, I didn't know
[10:47] <mdz> astharot: ogra and dholbach can guide you
[10:47] <ogra> astharot, and probably take part in the MOTUSecurity team (if not lead it)
[10:47] <mdz> ok, approved
[10:48] <mdz> astharot: congratulations
[10:48] <astharot> thanks :)
[10:48] <dholbach> WOW :-)
[10:48] <pitti> As long as we keep the policy that another member of the (uiniverse) security team approves patches, he should be able to upload
[10:48] <mdke> complimenti :)
[10:48] <pitti> astharot: congrats! I'm so glad to see you in :-)
[10:48] <astharot> eheh I'm glad too
[10:48] <astharot> thank you!
[10:48] <mdz> pitti: yes, we'll handle -security/universe differently from universe in the development branches
[10:48] <Nafallo> astharot: congrats :-)
[10:49] <mdz> next agenda item is to consider dholbach for upload to main
[10:49] <mdz> Keybuk: ?
[10:49] <ogra> *REMINDER* all approved MOTUS, please put yourself on the MOTU page in the wiki *REMINDER*
[10:49] <pitti> mdz: oh, astharot mainly fixes stable releases, for the development release we can mostly sync from Debian (I track that)
[10:49] <dholbach> ogra: i was just about to do it
[10:49] <Keybuk> I think he might be good enough to go without the training wheels now ;)
[10:49] <ogra> dholbach, let the guys do some work too ;) delegating is magic ;)
[10:49] <dholbach> haha... training wheels :-)
[10:49] <seb128> arf, daniel is going to break GNOME :)
[10:50] <pitti> seb128: even worse than you do? *duck*
[10:50] <ogra> seb128, we're sure you'll fix it afterwards ;)
[10:50] <seb128> somebody to blame for new gtk bogs :)
[10:50] <doko> seb128: is there anything he didn't break? ;-)
[10:50] <ogra> hehe
[10:50] <mdz> if seb128 won't have a heart attack, I'm happy for dholbach to upload to main ;-)
[10:50] <seb128> pitti: right, that's a challenge :)
[10:50] <pitti> seb128: SCNR, you're great, you know that :-)
[10:50] <seb128> ah ah
[10:50] <pitti> mdz++
[10:51] <fabbione> meh
[10:51] <fabbione> thumbs
[10:51] <mdz> so, approved
[10:51] <dholbach> merci beaucoup
[10:51] <fabbione> well you get it
[10:51] <mdz> dholbach: congratulations
[10:51] <Keybuk> dholbach: congrats, someone'll get you a red cap and a speedo ;)
[10:51] <mdke> dholbach, :)
[10:51] <seb128> dholbach: welcome dude :)
[10:51] <ogra> Keybuk, with propeller ?
[10:51] <mdz> everyone else on the agenda was already processed
[10:51] <seb128> dholbach: don't break everything as a welcome :p
[10:51] <dholbach> Keybuk: you're too kind :-)
[10:51] <mdz> except tseng who had to leave unfortunately
[10:51] <Nafallo> dholbach: :-D congratulations!
[10:51] <\sh> dholbach: congrats
[10:51] <mdz> I'll send him an email about rescheduling
[10:51] <ogra> mdz, which is very sad, since it holds up the move of mono to main
[10:51] <Keybuk> mdz: we could process him in absence?
[10:52] <ogra> Keybuk+++
[10:52] <mdz> Keybuk: hmm, I don't see why not
[10:52] <mdz> does anyone have anything to say?
[10:52] <Keybuk> certainly I've been relying on his packages for a while now, and he's impressed me, so I'd have no worries doing that
[10:52] <thom> thumbs up from me to tseng -> main
[10:53] <ogra> mdz, i worked on the mono packages a lot, they are a real mess if they come from debian.... tseng did such an awesome job, that upstream wants to work with him
[10:53] <ogra> (upstream == novell)
[10:53] <mdz> excellent
[10:53] <mdz> I think tseng would do fine in main
[10:53] <ogra> so an absolute thimbs up from me
[10:53] <JaneW> cool, so all on the agenda are approved?
[10:53] <ogra> JaneW, yeah
[10:53] <mdz> JaneW: so it would seem
[10:54] <JaneW> I'll send out a note in summary
[10:54] <JaneW> to the devel list?
[10:54] <mdz> tseng: congratulations in abstentia
[10:54] <mdz> JaneW: include it with the meeting summary?
[10:54] <mdz> I suppose it's worth a separate announcement
[10:54] <Keybuk> someone should probably mail Brandon personally to inform him :p
[10:55] <ogra> Keybuk, i'll do
[10:55] <mdz> any other business?
[10:55] <ogra> Keybuk, but he'll be here again in about 30min anyway
[10:56] <Keybuk> while we've got time, do we want to broach the idea of adding another member to the TB (I guess all we could do is recommend to Mark) ?  or are we happy as it is?
[10:56] <doko> yes, please let's announce "major" changes for the archives before packages are uploaded ...
[10:56] <opi> mdz: it's not quite related to the TC, but I have a question about MOTU-ML
[10:56] <JaneW> mdz: ok I'll include in the summary, AND it can be a separte announcement as well. Anyone want to do the separte one, or shall I?
[10:56] <ogra> opi, there is none yet
[10:56] <opi> mdz: will all MOTU subsection (MOTU-Games) have separated ML
[10:57] <ogra> opi, and we are not enough motus yet to have a MOTU ml
[10:57] <opi> ogra: I know, I'm watchin http://lists.ubuntu.com on daily bassis
[10:57] <mdz> Keybuk: right, "Appointments to the board are made by Mark Shuttleworth subject to confirmation by a vote amongst the maintainers."
[10:57] <dholbach> opi: the consensus, unfortunately, is there will be no motu mailing lists yet
[10:57] <opi> OK, noted
[10:57] <ogra> opi, if we are more then 50 we can probably think about it
[10:57] <mdz> Keybuk: so let's take that elsewhere, since he's not here
[10:57] <doko> we need to have a bit more organization on on major changes in the archives, although more than one change in parallel is probably not avoidable
[10:57] <mdz> doko: are you referring to xorg vs. g++-4.0?
[10:58] <opi> I need to get membership, and then I'll find someone who will help me improve my package-foo, that would be 50-1 :)
[10:58] <ogra> doko, have a proposal ? 
[10:58] <doko> mdz: yes, and dpkg
[10:58] <dholbach> opi: join #ubuntu-motu - we'll help you get there :-)
[10:58] <opi> dholbach: after I'll attend CC :)
[10:58] <doko> the proposal is simple: announce, what you plan, avoid doing things in parallel
[10:59] <Kamion> FWIW I don't think we could have done either xorg or g++-4.0 significantly later; they were both "early breakage" items, and both took (are taking) a significant amount of time
[10:59] <seb128> what the issue with // changeS?
[10:59] <seb128> changes even
[10:59] <seb128> the sooner the better for such changes
[10:59] <seb128> and that doesn't make a big difference
[10:59] <Keybuk> this basically comes to "have a spec before major changes" ?
[11:00] <ogra> which we already have ....
[11:00] <doko> Keybuk: it may be informal, but people should know about it. Looking at all our specs, they are not very detailed
[11:00] <mdz> doko: what were the problems which were caused by it?
[11:01] <mdz> we fully intended to break major things at the same time during this cycle
[11:01] <mdz> perhaps there are other ways to address the problems, rather than breaking only one thing at a time
[11:02] <doko> mdz: the ABI transtionplan was to avoid a freeze, so we decided to finish the libs first
[11:02] <mdz> we have a limited amount of time available to break things before we must start stabilization
[11:02] <doko> mdz: I don't deny it, but there has to be time to announce things
[11:02] <Seveas> ahh, so that's why dholbach is approved for main: fast breakage
[11:02] <Seveas> :)
[11:02] <ogra> yeah
[11:02] <mdz> doko: what do you propose?
[11:03] <dholbach> do i have a THAT bad reputation already?
[11:03] <Keybuk> dholbach: second only to seb128 :p
[11:03] <seb128> :)
[11:03] <Keybuk> so at least you're in good company
[11:03] <doko> mdz: please scroll back: announce major changes, before you upload
[11:03] <ogra> doko, isnt it to late anyway ? we are in the middle of the transition now....
[11:03] <mdz> doko: how far in advance?
[11:04] <mdz> ogra: yes, but we can discuss what to do in the future
[11:04] <ogra> ok
[11:04] <doko> major changes are planned for a longer time, so one 3 or 4 work days should be fine.
[11:04] <JaneW> mdz: I just became aware of the HoaryRelease schedule page on the main wiki today, we can make a similar one for Breezy addressing many of these questions and dates.
[11:05] <doko> leaving room for coordination between us
[11:05] <mdz> JaneW: I created one just before the meeting ;-)
[11:05] <lamont> there are advantages to breaking only one thing at a time... as it sits, most of the failures are obviously one of the 3 reasons, but some of them are less obvious'
[11:05] <mdz> lamont: but we can't do 3 2-week transitions serially; we lose too much time
[11:05] <mdz> I see no problem with requiring advance notice
[11:05] <mdz> so that at least everyone is aware that there could be multiple reasons for the breakage
[11:06] <Keybuk> yeah, an advance e-mail to u-d would at least give people a heads-up that apt might not be their friend this week
[11:06] <lamont> mdz: true.  the fact that most of the failures are obvious which camp they belong to just means that we are "working in a target rich environment"
[11:07] <dholbach> Keybuk: and it will be easier for MOTU to set up transition lists
[11:07] <mdz> I would prefer to fix a number of days rather than deal in "working days"
[11:07] <ogra> dholbach, i thought we go to RT, then it'll be easy anyway
[11:07] <JaneW> mdz: you are good!
[11:07] <mdz> so something like 4 days advance notice
[11:07] <doko> mdz: we do have a nice section in our spec template "packages affected", this section should be detailed in the announcement
[11:07] <mdz> JaneW: I have a time travel device
[11:07] <dholbach> ogra: that's one of the point i missed quite often: a new upload of a library and the MOTU have to figure out themselves what's to fix
[11:07] <doko> mdz: yes, that looks fine
[11:08] <ogra> dholbach, ah, yes, thats true
[11:08] <mdz> unfortunately, I don't think we have a place to document such conventions
[11:08] <mdz> do we/
[11:08] <mdz> ?
[11:08] <dholbach> ogra: like X, like ogg/flac stuff, like ...
[11:08] <ogra> yep
[11:08] <doko> mdz: I'll write a wiki page
[11:09] <mdz> doko: ok, I think we have an index of maintainer documentation somewhere
[11:09] <mdz> doko: so maybe link to a HandlingTransitions or such
[11:09] <mdz> there is certainly more that we can say about transitions there as well
[11:09] <doko> ok
[11:09] <mdz> any other business before we close?  we're over time
[11:09] <ogra> yeah, please no more transitions with wiki lists....the editing takes me more time then the package fix
[11:10] <mdz> ok, meeting adjourned
[11:10] <mdz> thanks, everyone
[11:10] <ivoks> clap clap 
[11:10] <fabbione> danke
[11:10] <dholbach> thanks mdz
[11:10] <mdke> ogra, maybe you can consider access controlling the pages?
[11:10] <mdz> and welcome to all the new maintainers!
[11:10] <dholbach> ogra: wiki lists are better than NO lists
[11:10] <ogra> mdz, oh, do i need approval for mono to main ?
[11:10] <fabbione> :)
[11:10] <surak> tkz
[11:10] <lamont> dholbach: flat file lists work too, and have less editing pain
[11:10] <ogra> dholbach, sure, but its a real PITA
[11:10] <mdz> ogra: if pitti already reviewed it, then no
[11:10] <ogra> great
[11:10] <ogra> :-D
[11:11] <mdke> ogra, something like, maintainers can edit the pages, normal users not?
[11:11] <ogra> mdke, its not that someone edits it....
[11:11] <mdke> oh i c
[11:11] <mdke> gotcha
[11:11] <ogra> mdke, its the length of the lists and the lack of searching in test input boxes in ff
[11:11] <ogra> text even
[11:12] <sladen> 3
[11:12] <ogra> sladen, ?
[11:13] <sladen> ogra: typo
[11:13] <ogra> sladen, hi then :)
[11:14] <zul> fabbione: fine with me :)
[11:14] <fabbione> zul: ?
[11:14] <fabbione> ah the kernel..
[11:14] <fabbione> ehhe
[11:28] <opi> well, it's almost the time :-)
[11:29] <opi> oh, 0.5h 
[11:29] <Seveas> CC is in 30 minutes :)
[11:30] <kassetra> whew!  When I first logged in, I thought I was late!
[11:30] <dholbach> mdke: merci beaucoup
[11:30] <mdke> oooh cookies
[11:30] <mdke> hi kassetra 
[11:31] <ivoks> i have strawberies... anyone? :)
[11:31] <kassetra> Hi!  :)
[11:31] <opi> ivoks: can you fax some? ;)
[11:31] <dholbach> ivoks: hmmmmmm :-)
[11:31] <mdke> ivoks, nice one
[11:31] <opi> ivoks: I'll pick up them tom. at office ;)
[11:31] <HiddenWolf> opi, that'd be called coffee :P
[11:31] <kassetra> opi: that tends to cause a fax jam.  ;)
[11:31] <mdke> *grins*
[11:31] <anto9us> *groan*
[11:31] <mdke> painful but strangely amusing
[11:31] <Seveas> rofl kassetra 
[11:31] <opi> HiddenWolf: I don't know why I'm allways messing around this word
[11:32] <opi> HiddenWolf: maybe I just like it *too* much? :)
[11:32] <opi> or, I lack of it when I'm mentioning it
[11:32] <ivoks> :)
[11:32] <HiddenWolf> opi, probably, you french? 
[11:32] <opi> HiddenWolf: Poland
[11:32] <HiddenWolf> opi, ah, ok
[11:33] <opi> HiddenWolf: we call it ,,kawa''
[11:33] <opi> HiddenWolf: where's w sounds like f
[11:33] <ivoks> opi: lol
[11:33] <ivoks> opi: we call it kava
[11:33] <ivoks> :)
[11:33] <opi> :)
[11:33] <HiddenWolf> opi, no suprize there :)
[11:33] <opi> ivoks: well, you're balkan, no? :)
[11:33] <ivoks> but we say w as v
[11:33] <ivoks> some say as f
[11:34] <opi> can't we just call it tasteful-brown-wather? :)
[11:34] <ivoks> opi: balkan is difficult term, but yes :)
[11:34] <Seveas> tasteful brown water would be hot choco :)
[11:35] <ivoks> opi: polska?
[11:35] <surak> seveas++
[11:35] <opi> ivoks: yup ;)
[11:35] <opi> Seveas: that would be a sticky-tasteful-brown-wather
[11:35] <surak> when I was a child, I used to say coffe is the dirt water from hell - it kept me awake for days!
[11:36] <ivoks> opi: so, today we fight for member status? :)
[11:36] <opi> surak: you where right at this :p
[11:36] <opi> ivoks: it's not like a fight ;)
[11:36] <opi> ivoks: you have some chances when you fight
[11:36] <Seveas> lol
[11:36] <ivoks> :)
[11:36] <kassetra> heh.
[11:36] <opi> ivoks: we're going to be reviewed by Council Of Evilness :)
[11:36] <ivoks> opi: well, that's fight
[11:37] <ivoks> you have to stand up for your self
[11:37] <ivoks> :)
[11:37] <surak> CE: give us some coffe, and we will worship you :-)
[11:37] <Seveas> who of you is pllying for membership (/me is)
[11:37] <Seveas> s/pllying/applying/
[11:37] <tjl2> not me - just observing...
[11:37] <opi> then, MOTU
[11:38] <opi> and the World Domination
[11:38] <Seveas> lol
[11:38] <ivoks> opi: that would be Universe domination
[11:38] <dieman> i might apply next month
[11:38] <ivoks> :)
[11:38] <Simira> the meeting's in 20 mins, right?
[11:38] <kassetra> I think I have already been made a member, but as I couldn't make the last meeting, I came to this one.
[11:38] <Seveas> Simira, yes
[11:38] <dieman> depends on if i get involved enough in the next month or so
[11:38] <opi> well, the last point will be easy, as I'm a member of Dogbert's New Rulling Class
[11:38] <dieman> so far im just submitting bugs and doing a lot of stuff locally
[11:39] <dieman> 45 installed ubuntu machines at work so far.
[11:39] <opi> dieman: just hang around and you'll know would you like to share title with fsc^H^H^Hpeople like us. :)
[11:39] <dieman> just need to reinstall 260 debian machines. ugh.
[11:39] <opi> dieman: I can not compete there, not more than 10 ;)
[11:40] <opi> dieman: you can try to move them to the Hoary
[11:40] <Seveas> dieman, i need to do ~35
[11:40] <Seveas> but they want red hat on them
[11:40] <JohnDong> opi: not good idea
[11:40] <Seveas> i'm gonna push ubuntu until they either snap or fire me :)
[11:40] <JohnDong> I've tried
[11:40] <opi> JohnDong: unless it's an oldie
[11:40] <opi> JohnDong: the SID should move without much problems :-)
[11:40] <JohnDong> Woody to Warty was pretty awful
[11:40] <JohnDong> and Sid to Hoary DEFINITELY won't work
[11:40] <dieman> opi: i've got about 14 warty machines im going to be upgrading to hoary
[11:41] <dieman> opi: been doing them 'by hand' to ensure X works.
[11:41] <JohnDong> Sid is much newer than Hoary
[11:41] <JohnDong> that's why I can still get backports from Sid ;)
[11:41] <JohnDong> minus the GCC 4
[11:41] <Seveas> yeah, glibc hell :)
[11:41] <opi> JohnDong: right, I've been reading about such move before Hoary was frozen
[11:41] <Seveas> even sarge->hoary is hard
[11:41] <jbailey> Seveas: Hmm?
[11:41] <\sh> dieman: which debian u r running on the servers?
[11:41] <JohnDong> BEFORE hoary was frozen
[11:41] <JohnDong> now Hoary IS frozen
[11:41] <JohnDong> lol
[11:41] <dieman> \sh: servers aren't debian for the most part, they are solaris.
[11:42] <Seveas> jbailey, when trying to move from sid to hoary you encounter some glibc 'problems'
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: these are mostly desktops and cluster machines.
[11:42] <kassetra> I do have to say that upgrading from Warty to Hoary was painful, but not nearly as painful as any other upgrade I've ever done.
[11:42] <jbailey> Seveas: Eh, really?  Sid to hoary ought to be fine.
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: the 260 debian boxes are woody + lots of local crap and backports
[11:42] <jbailey> Oh wait.
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: and local kernels, and etc.
[11:42] <Seveas> sid has a newer glibc..
[11:42] <dieman> \sh: its very painful.
[11:42] <jbailey> Seveas: Right, but I think it downgrades safely.
[11:42] <Kamion> downgrades are generally painful
[11:42] <jbailey> You can't move from the experimental glibc to Hoary.
[11:42] <dieman> heh
[11:42] <Seveas> jbailey, i would be surprised :)
[11:43] <opi> whatever you do, redoing 260 will be painful whatever you do
[11:43] <dholbach>  b a c k p o r t s *SHUDDER*
[11:43] <opi> s/what...//
[11:43] <dieman> opi: i've got help :)
[11:43] <Kamion> you can do woody->warty->hoary (tediously), and you'll be able to do sarge->breezy
[11:43] <Seveas> opi++
[11:43] <jbailey> You can move from experimental glibc to sid glibc to hoary, I think, though.  I didn't include the downgrade magic in Hoary.
[11:43] <dieman> opi: plus 109 of them are in labs, i can do those in about a day
[11:43] <dieman> opi: using fai. :)
[11:43] <kassetra> backports are good!  :)
[11:43] <\sh> dieman: ah...yeah i can imagine...quite the same situation we had at lycos with out debian servers
[11:43] <mdke> i'm with dholbach 
[11:43] <dieman> kassetra: heh, they are good when someone is managing a backport and has time.
[11:44] <kassetra> and that's jdong for me, at least.  :)
[11:44] <dieman> kassetra: its bad when you start piling them up locally and have to deal with security updates :)
[11:44] <dholbach> kassetra: most of the people, i helped to upgrade, who had severely fucked up systems, used backports which broke their upgrade paths :-/
[11:44] <dieman> \sh: heh
[11:44] <dieman> \sh: i've got a few headless machines running ubuntu anyhow.
[11:44] <opi> dholbach: you should see my old Debian box
[11:44] <dieman> \sh: this colo box runs sarge, tho.
[11:44] <opi> dholbach: backports are at least in .deb form
[11:44] <mdke> also its important that people realise that backports will inevitably not be as stable as the tested ubuntu packages
[11:44] <kassetra> well, on my system, all of the backports upgraded flawlessly, it was xserver->xorg and nvidia upgrades that botched it.
[11:45] <opi> dholbach: while my box was partly-this-partly-that-partly-from-sources
[11:45] <dholbach> opi: .deb can be EVERYTHING
[11:45] <dieman> dholbach: like some of the experimental xf86 4.3 woody backports :)
[11:45] <kassetra> the only backports I use are the ones that jdong builds, actually...
[11:45] <Kamion> which are about 50 times harder to get right than the average backport to start with. :)
[11:45] <\sh> dieman: u have cfengine running, too?
[11:45] <Kamion> (xorg and nvidia that is)
[11:45] <dieman> \sh: yeah
[11:45] <dholbach> OUCH
[11:45] <opi> dholbach: sure, but at least you have some tools to deal with it :-)
[11:45] <dieman> \sh: i've actually promised to put some cfengine examples on the web
[11:45] <\sh> dieman: thats much nicer in a DC env
[11:45] <dieman> \sh: i need to do that soon.
[11:45] <Seveas> tools can't beat bad packager
[11:45] <Seveas> s
[11:45] <opi> dholbach: it died before Sarge get in, so I'm not crying :P
[11:46] <dholbach> people should try get involved in the development cycle and do some GOOD work in something that is to be released
[11:46] <dieman> \sh: i've essentially got a unified cfengine config i've used from the old progeny stuff, to woody, to ubuntu hoary and warty
[11:46] <opi> dholbach: actually, it died year ago.. man, there's still no Sarge ;}
[11:46] <dieman> \sh: the ability for cfengine to class things based on shell scripts is nice
[11:46] <dholbach> and backports for a half-a-year...
[11:46] <dieman> \sh: lsb_release -c -s is my friend :)
[11:47] <mako> greetings everyone
[11:47] <kassetra> hello!  :)
[11:47] <opi> mako-san
[11:47] <dieman> i should go get on the bus so i can join the metting from there.
[11:47] <dieman> meeting, rather
[11:47] <mako> my network is *flakey*
[11:47] <Seveas> you have 13 minutes dieman :)
[11:47] <\sh> hey maki
[11:47] <Seveas> greetings mako
[11:47] <\sh> mako even :)
[11:47] <dieman> mako: thats what .edu networks are for! :)
[11:47] <opi> mako: if you'll split, we'll badmouth about Ubuntu-CC ;)
[11:48] <mako> well, i'm connecting from one .edu to the other and they have both developed the jitters in the last hour
[11:48] <mako> in any case
[11:48] <dieman> mako: heh, nice.
[11:48] <dieman> brb
[11:48] <\sh> dieman: for us it was quite difficult..we managed 3 different archs and 5 diff. unixes 
[11:49] <mako> alright.. the agenda has exploaded overnight.. always a good sign
[11:49] <mdke> hiya mako
[11:49] <mako> mdke: greetings :)
[11:50] <opi> \sh: you should think about some intagration
[11:50] <\sh> opi: I did....i'm not working for lycos anymore ,)
[11:50] <opi> \sh: ha ha
[11:50] <Kamion> mako: is it just me or does the agenda have stuff from four weeks ago?
[11:50] <opi> \sh: sounds like a solution to my problems at work :-)
[11:51] <mako> Kamion: umm.. i think i cleaned it up
[11:51] <mdke>  Rock the Casbah.
[11:51] <Kamion> the LoCo stuff?
[11:51] <mako> Kamion: we defered teh loco team mailing stuff from 2 weeks ago
[11:51] <\sh> opi: hehe...well but right now the situation is not better 
[11:51] <mako> and the first candidates we considered last time and put off
[11:52] <mako> the rest haven't been looked at in a meeting yet
[11:52] <mako> Kamion: yes, the first loco item is review
[11:52] <mako> smurfix: you around?
[11:52] <smurfix> yes
[11:52] <mako> killer
[11:52] <smurfix> *yawn*  ;-)
[11:53] <opi> smurfix: get a mug of tasteful-brown-wather
[11:53] <\sh> ah mr. uisdn ;)
[11:54] <JaneW> mako: get out of the park, I hear connectivity is generally better in doors :P
[11:55] <Seveas> robitaille, only if it's neither decaf nor light :)
[11:55] <smurfix> \sh: I actually hope to outlive everybody who still remembers that stuff
[11:55] <mako> JaneW: it has been pretty nasty and cold since last thursday
[11:55] <mako> :(
[11:55] <\sh> smurfix: no way ;)
[11:55] <mako> no park hacking for me lately :(
[11:55] <opi> robitaille: it counts as derusting liquid :-)
[11:56] <mako> that's gonna be me all summer though.. 
[11:56] <mdke> nice
[11:56] <opi> mako: go to the park with a laptop at my city
[11:56] <opi> mako: there's no WiFi there
[11:56] <Seveas> haha
[11:56] <ogra> woah, joeys blog is heavy today....
[11:56] <opi> mako: plus, you'll get robed ;)
[11:56] <mako> now that i have a laptop with a screen that take the sun, being inside on a nice day is hard to justify
[11:56] <mdke> here you get your laptop full of water
[11:56] <JaneW> mako: making me jealous, winter has set in here, 12 degs (celcius) here atm
[11:56] <opi> mdke: yup, rains all over the europe
[11:56] <Seveas> here in amsterdam they have wifi in bars :)
[11:57] <\sh> JaneW: joburg or capetown?
[11:57] <JaneW> \sh: cape town
[11:57] <opi> Seveas: bah, I have a bar at my office :->
[11:57] <mako> JaneW: with a winter at 12d, don't expect too much sympathy :)
[11:57] <mako> JaneW: try -12 :P
[11:57] <JaneW> mako: true ;)
[11:57] <opi> Seveas: ok, a fridge with beer, but that's almost like it ;)
[11:57] <opi> before we begin
[11:57] <Seveas> :)
[11:57] <Simira> opi: no rain in Norway to day. Nice and sunny.
[11:57] <opi> my boss posted a lousy joke toay
[11:58] <opi> what's boss fav. cake?
[11:58] <opi> work harder
[11:58] <Simira> hi Nafallo. Congrats with what?
[11:58] <mako> i count two minutes
[11:58] <opi> it make no sesn in Polish, too
[11:58] <opi> so we posted something after that
[11:58] <Nafallo> Simira: typo for siretart ;-)
[11:58] <opi> http://kierzko.com/dowcip/
[11:58] <\sh> JaneW: snow on the mountains?
[11:58] <opi> scroll to the bottom ;)
[11:58] <Nafallo> Simira: and hi *hugs* :-)
[11:58] <dieman> back...
[11:58] <dieman> damn freenode needs ident.
[11:59] <Seveas> opi, which one of those are you?
[11:59] <JaneW> \sh: not yet, but soon, it will drop to belwo 10 degs then
[11:59] <Nafallo> dieman: it's not a must :-)
[11:59] <siretart> Nafallo: thanks :)
[11:59] <dave_> date --utc
[11:59] <mako> alright, we'll officially start in a couple minutes
[11:59] <Nafallo> siretart: *s* :-)
[11:59] <\sh> JaneW: but then you have the nicest season coming: the whales ;)
[11:59] <mako> sabdfl will not be joining us today
[11:59] <dieman> Nafallo: ahh, i guess only some of them do.
[12:00] <xuzo> hi
[12:00] <dave_> hello
[12:00] <mako> dave_: greetings
[12:00] <mako> which means you guys are stuck with the likes of myself, kamion and elmo :)
[12:00] <mako> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[12:00] <JaneW> \sh: yes and wine and fires and chocolate can be quite fun ;)
[12:00] <Seveas> ah well, could be worse :)
[12:00] <Nafallo> dieman: AFAIK they only asks you if you have it, witch takes an awful time if you drop the packets ;-).
[12:00] <mako> aganeda is up there and you have about -1 minutes to add something :)
[12:00] <\sh> JaneW: oh yeah..stellenbosch ;)
[12:01] <dieman> Nafallo: i had at least 2 servers drop me without it.
[12:01] <Simira> chocolate!
[12:01] <Nafallo> dieman: yay, I've been lucky then ;-)
[12:01] <ogra> Simira, i thought tea
[12:01] <mako> alright, lets get this party started
[12:01] <mako> no wait
[12:01] <dieman> oh well.