[04:51] <jsgotangco> morning
[05:14] <Burgundavia> salut
[07:04] <jiyuu0> just created this thread
[07:04] <jiyuu0>  UbuntuGuide Learning Material for Beginners
[07:04] <jiyuu0> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=188692
[07:30] <jsgotangco> ummm
[07:30] <jsgotangco> jiyuu0, it would be great if you can talk to jdub about this
[07:30] <jsgotangco> we had a BOF about training materials
[07:30] <jiyuu0> BOF?
[07:30] <jsgotangco> Birds of a Feather
[07:30] <jsgotangco> let me get that BOF session
[07:31] <jiyuu0> i have to start this quick as i'm organizing the workshop of such by end of june
[07:31] <jsgotangco> yes, there's no problem with that
[07:31] <jiyuu0> and the material should finish by mid june
[07:31] <jiyuu0> am working on this full time :)
[07:31] <jsgotangco> but wouldn't it be nice if your training materials would become official materials just in case?
[07:31] <jsgotangco> yes i understand that
[07:32] <jsgotangco> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining
[07:32] <jiyuu0> making it official would be nice
[07:32] <jsgotangco> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TrainingLiveCd
[07:32] <jiyuu0> but have to come out with the first draft
[07:35] <jsgotangco> you can contribute a lot for sure with regards to community matters
[07:38] <jiyuu0> while waiting for the next meeting/conference
[07:38] <jiyuu0> i'll start the ball rolling first
[07:39] <jsgotangco> yeah go for it
[07:39] <jiyuu0> how's the table of content?
[07:40] <jsgotangco> its great but im no expert in training materials
[07:40] <jiyuu0> me too
[07:40] <jsgotangco> you should consult froud he's the expert on documentation systems
[07:40] <jsgotangco> he's been doing stuff like these in ZA for quite some time
[07:40] <froud> African greetings
[07:41] <jsgotangco> speak of the devil
[07:41] <jiyuu0> yes... he has been asking to open up ubuntuguide.org too :)
[07:41] <jsgotangco> you should
[07:41] <jiyuu0> the devil watchin over us...
[07:41] <jsgotangco> it has so much potential
[07:41] <jiyuu0> yes... the force is strong with this one
[07:41] <jsgotangco> it would be great if we could meet up if my trip to KL pushes through
[07:42] <jiyuu0> sure.... and i thought is today
[07:42] <jiyuu0> froud, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=188692
[07:42] <jiyuu0> another guy here in MY is helping out too
[07:43] <jiyuu0> he will be compiling it and puttin into proper english
[07:43] <froud> yes I have seen this thread
[07:43] <jiyuu0> and i'll give him the structure and points
[07:43] <froud> and I wrote http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=188692
[07:43] <froud> ooops
[07:43] <froud> and I wrote http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining
[07:44] <froud> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining is no smal thing and has to be done very very well
[07:44] <jiyuu0> true
[07:44] <froud> I already started this as a commercial excercise
[07:45] <jiyuu0> mine would be much simplier
[07:45] <froud> I am hapy to colloborate with youon this
[07:45] <froud> providing we meet the terms of the docteam licenses
[07:45] <froud> and the work is done in svn
[07:45] <jiyuu0> can svn be printed as a handbook
[07:45] <froud> yes
[07:46] <froud> PDF
[07:46] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:46] <jiyuu0> ok... i'll make the first draft
[07:46] <jsgotangco> DocBook rules the world
[07:46] <jiyuu0> in word format then we beautify it into svn
[07:46] <froud> use OOo Writer
[07:47] <jiyuu0> oops... hehe
[07:47] <froud> jiyuu0: please send elmo your public pgp key
[07:47] <jsgotangco> sxw
[07:47] <froud> that way we can get you commit access
[07:47] <jiyuu0> i don't have pgp key... never used it b4
[07:47] <froud> yes
[07:47] <jsgotangco> jiyuu0, create one its easy
[07:47] <froud> first time for everything
[07:48] <jiyuu0> true
[07:48] <jsgotangco> just make sure you keep the key
[07:48] <froud> jiyuu0: I have ported ubuntuguide to docbook it is now in svn
[07:48] <jsgotangco> (someone here accidentally erased his key)
[07:48] <jiyuu0> froud, can u send me ur email... i have another guy who is also workin on this too
[07:48] <froud> sean@inwords.co.za
[07:48] <jiyuu0> i'm meeting him shortly
[07:48] <jiyuu0> to discuss bout his
[07:49] <jiyuu0> this
[07:49] <froud> Images are drawn in inkscape
[07:49] <jsgotangco> froud, spiffy posters in svn? *grin*
[07:50] <froud> Arhhh yes forgot too busy
[07:50] <froud> jiyuu0: will you work on ubuntuguide in svn
[07:50] <jiyuu0> i'm rushin for this new training thing... 
[07:50] <jiyuu0> dead line end of june
[07:50] <jiyuu0> material by mid june
[07:50] <jsgotangco> for your business?
[07:51] <jiyuu0> temporary will not have big changes in ubuntu guide
[07:51] <froud> why june, breezy wont be out until October
[07:51] <froud> pleae make all changes in svn
[07:51] <jiyuu0> jsgotangco, not really... it's a open source training session that i organise for my open source club
[07:52] <froud> jiyuu0: please can you make change in svn, it takes time for us to keep tracking your changes
[07:52] <jiyuu0> u mean the ubuntuguide.org?
[07:52] <jsgotangco> froud, i can help him out we're in the same timezone anyway
[07:52] <froud> yes
[07:52] <jiyuu0> i've created a log file
[07:53] <froud> jiyuu0: why not just do it in svn
[07:53] <froud> once you have commit access you will be able to do it much faster
[07:53] <jsgotangco> yeah
[07:53] <jiyuu0> i have plans for that in the next version (breezy)
[07:53] <froud> great plans are good but do it in svn
[07:53] <jsgotangco> we can move the existing one now with very little effort
[07:54] <froud> jsgotangco: I have moved it
[07:54] <jsgotangco> ahh right
[07:54] <froud> and now I am doing the markup
[07:54] <froud> jiyuu0: will you work in svn?
[07:55] <jiyuu0> not now... i have to work on the training stuff
[07:55] <jiyuu0> nothing major would come up in ubuntuguide.org
[07:55] <froud> no I mean in general when you come to making updates
[07:55] <jiyuu0> all hands tied :(
[07:55] <froud> making them in svn would be easier
[07:56] <froud> we are extra hands
[07:56] <jiyuu0> can u update the svn
[07:56] <jiyuu0> and i'll update the .html with proper changelog
[07:56] <froud> jiyuu0: do you understand how open source development works
[07:56] <froud> jiyuu0: no
[07:56] <froud> we are not going to track that
[07:57] <froud> jiyuu0: please understand
[07:57] <froud> I am not going to waste my time if a person is not going to work in a toatlly free and open way
[07:58] <froud> I have better things to do that try to keep track of changes in ubuntuguide.org
[07:58] <froud> change log or no
[07:58] <jiyuu0> i can't work on it right now (no major updates for ubuntuguide.org)... changing the original site to svn would change a lot of things
[07:59] <jsgotangco> froud already moved it you're just going to maintain it in svn
[07:59] <froud> jiyuu0: at some point you do realize that I will just start ignoring you
[07:59] <jsgotangco> svn will track changes for everyone of us
[07:59] <froud> why do you need so much control
[07:59] <jsgotangco> that's why you're supposed to create a gpg key and send it to elmo
[08:00] <jiyuu0> cause i use it to teach other ppl strictly based on it
[08:00] <jiyuu0> and everything works with it
[08:00] <froud> jiyuu0: we want you to join us and work with us, its good for all of us, but there is a limit
[08:00] <froud> jiyuu0: I am not sure you understand the power of FOSS development models or how they work
[08:01] <jiyuu0> and it's difficult for me to keep track of changes other ppl had made
[08:01] <froud> no it is not
[08:01] <froud> we have a mail system for exactly that
[08:02] <froud> jiyuu0: once I have finsihed porting this doc, it will take a life on its own in svn, the community will improve it
[08:02] <froud> you have toput trust in the community it is more powerful that anyone of us
[08:02] <froud> each of us needs to work selflessly
[08:03] <froud> by sharing ideas and giving control to the community you will benefit greatly
[08:04] <froud> at present you seem to be doing great work, but you do not want to lose control
[08:04] <froud> I understand this, but feel that you need to take this leap of faith at some point
[08:05] <froud> trust and work with the community, that is all we ask
[08:05] <froud> at some point we will stop asking you
[08:05] <jsgotangco> froud, this should also apply on the kubuntu and ppc guide that came out
[08:06] <jsgotangco> its getting pretty fragmented
[08:06] <froud> and instead of working together we will be compteing against each other, that is very sad
[08:06] <froud> jsgotangco: yes
[08:06] <jsgotangco> i should talk to the guy who did for kubuntu
[08:06] <froud> I am very concerned about the fragmentation
[08:06] <froud> yes, where is thatURL again
[08:06] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:06] <jsgotangco> wait let me check the list
[08:07] <jsgotangco> KUDOS or something
[08:07] <froud> jiyuu0: so what do you think, canyou work with us on everything in svn
[08:07] <jsgotangco> http://kudos.berlios.de/
[08:08] <jiyuu0> froud, really give me some time here... cause it's going to change the way i'm writing
[08:08] <jiyuu0> and maitaining it
[08:08] <froud> jiyuu0: it will give you more time
[08:08] <froud> it will make it easier for you
[08:08] <jsgotangco> Abdullah Ramazanoglu
[08:09] <jiyuu0> u see i've have dead line for the training material... i am going to do it full force
[08:09] <jiyuu0> and it will be based on the ubuntuguide.org and add-on-cd
[08:09] <froud> do it in svn and you will get help
[08:09] <jiyuu0> to change it to svn right now... means burning extra time
[08:09] <froud> do it outside and I am not intersted in helping
[08:10] <froud> time you will make up when you have more hands from the community
[08:11] <jsgotangco> let's adjourn this for a while
[08:11] <jsgotangco> we're just going in circles
[08:11] <froud> jiyuu0: do you or do you not want help
[08:11] <froud> jiyuu0: WE ARE OFFERING YOU EXTRA HANDS WE CAN DO MORE TOGETHER, THAT IS HEAPS OF EXTRA TIME
[08:12] <froud> jiyuu0: BUT YOU NEEDS TO COMPROMISE SO WE CAN COLLABORATE
[08:12] <jiyuu0> training material project -> svn from the beginning 
[08:12] <jiyuu0> that i can do
[08:12] <froud> jiyuu0: agreed
[08:12] <jiyuu0> but ubuntuguide.org -> svn (shortly)
[08:12] <froud> jiyuu0: I ported 5.04 yesterday
[08:12] <froud> its in svn already
[08:13] <froud> I am just cleaning up the markup
[08:13] <froud> jiyuu0: did you understand what I just said?
[08:13] <froud> 5.04 is in svn as of two days ago
[08:14] <froud> 5.04 is available as docbook xml in svn, all we ask is that if and when you need to do updates that you please do them in svn
[08:15] <froud> jiyuu0: plovs did the port for warty and I have done the port for hoary, this stuff takes time and we dont want to waste our time
[08:15] <jiyuu0> froud, yes... to look into ubuntuguide.org svn needs time... and my time now is at training material
[08:15] <jiyuu0> that's why ubuntuguide.org (svn) will come in shortly
[08:15] <jiyuu0> ubuntuguide.org (svn) means changing the current state of ubuntuguide
[08:16] <jiyuu0> web site have to change too
[08:16] <froud> jiyuu0: in the community there will be changes, its to be expected.
[08:16] <froud> flow with these changes
[08:17] <froud> I think you will find that the changes improve things
[08:18] <jiyuu0> like jsgotangco said... let's adjourn this topic for a while... i need to concentrate on the training materials
[08:18] <froud> jsgotangco: will you contact KUDOS guy
[08:18] <jsgotangco> yeah
[08:18] <jsgotangco> as early as possible
[08:18] <jsgotangco> don't want this to happen again
[08:19] <froud> OK, I think we can do FAG Guide as Kubuntu and Ubuntu, what do you think
[08:19] <jsgotangco> kubuntu will be much easier except i know you're traded barbs with this guy before
[08:19] <jsgotangco> FAQ Guide sounds good its already there
[08:19] <jsgotangco> i can whip it up probably a day or two and show it to the kudos guy
[08:20] <froud> jsgotangco: no no, I mean we can do both FAQ Guides in one XML file
[08:20] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:20] <jsgotangco> won't that be messy
[08:20] <froud> I already started to profile it as such
[08:20] <jsgotangco> hmm what should i do then
[08:20] <jsgotangco> you can move it to generic
[08:20] <froud> not really, there are many things the same between the distros
[08:20] <froud> it is in generic
[08:20] <froud> :-)
[08:20] <jsgotangco> ohh
[08:21] <jsgotangco> svn up
[08:21] <jsgotangco> ok will look at it later then
[08:21] <froud> <book lang="&language;" id="x01">
[08:21] <froud>     <title>
[08:21] <froud>         <phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>
[08:21] <froud>         <phrase id="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase> FAQ Guide</title>
[08:21] <froud> oops I see a bug
[08:21] <jsgotangco> hmmm i should email amu or Riddell sometime
[08:22] <froud> <book lang="&language;" id="x01">
[08:22] <froud>     <title>
[08:22] <froud>         <phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>
[08:22] <froud>         <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase> FAQ Guide</title>
[08:22] <froud>     <bookinfo>
[08:22] <jsgotangco> i still dont know the roadmap
[08:22] <froud> amu and riddle know about it
[08:22] <froud> ;-)
[08:22] <jsgotangco> no no i mean i dont know the roadmap
[08:22] <jsgotangco> i should
[08:23] <jsgotangco> i should email kubuntu-users and ask for help on screenshots
[08:23] <froud> yes, good idea
[08:24] <jsgotangco> im sure i'll get replies
[08:24] <froud> dont know until you try
[08:24] <froud> I suggest you do one or two as examples
[08:24] <froud> that way they have somethng to follow
[08:24] <jsgotangco> yeah but i think we also have conventions on screenshots
[08:24] <jsgotangco> (i still have to read on that)
[08:25] <froud> yes look at code in gnome quick guide
[08:25] <jsgotangco> yeah i was studying that last night
[08:25] <froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots
[08:25] <jsgotangco> yeah that too
[08:26] <froud> cool dude your the best
[08:26] <jsgotangco> that KUDOS thing is huge though
[08:26] <froud> great
[08:26] <froud> no worries
[08:26] <jsgotangco> one question though
[08:26] <jsgotangco> we're in bugzilla
[08:26] <froud> yes
[08:26] <jsgotangco> but enrico is still the contact?
[08:26] <froud> enrico is around
[08:27] <froud> he is still part of the team, just busy with work
[08:27] <jsgotangco> yeah we don't get that much bugs anyway
[08:27] <froud> there was talk about going to malone
[08:27] <froud> I think it may be a good idea
[08:27] <jsgotangco> well main documentation should still be in bugzilla (if i know)
[08:28] <froud> I think Burgundavia wanted to move us to Malone
[08:28] <jsgotangco> i think malone is mostly universer for now
[08:28] <froud> yes, but we can port over to malone
[08:28] <jsgotangco> do we have a roadmap of going out to svn?
[08:28] <froud> what?
[08:28] <jsgotangco> i mean
[08:29] <jsgotangco> are there plans to move us to baz?
[08:29] <jsgotangco> or do we decide to keep svn
[08:29] <froud> there was talk but no plan, I dont think people what to do it
[08:29] <froud> so we just keep in svn
[08:29] <jsgotangco> we should upgrade though
[08:30] <froud> elmo was supposed to upgrade, but hey who knows
[08:30] <froud> for now it does not slow us down
[08:30] <jsgotangco> (but then we don't even utilize 50% of existing features)
[08:30] <froud> that's ok
[08:30] <jsgotangco> for our size, it works at the moment
[08:30] <froud> we use what we use and have room for growth
[08:31] <froud> svn can support many thousands
[08:31] <jsgotangco> we only got like 4 people with active accounts
[08:31] <froud> there are more active accounts, but people not able to commit right now
[08:31] <froud> people like trickie
[08:31] <froud> plovs
[08:31] <jsgotangco> yeah but trickie just retired (temporarily)
[08:31] <froud> hornbeck
[08:32] <froud> yes, but that is the nature of FOSS, they will come and go
[08:32] <froud> and come back again
[08:32] <jsgotangco> i sure hope so
[08:32] <jsgotangco> its funny though
[08:32] <jsgotangco> in the contributors list
[08:32] <froud> however, at core you're right, we are 4 people
[08:32] <jsgotangco> documentation has the most number of people
[08:33] <froud> I think it is just because of the wiki
[08:33] <jsgotangco> *tee hee*
[08:33] <jsgotangco> i was thinking though
[08:33] <jsgotangco> with kubuntu
[08:34] <jsgotangco> would it be possible for it to have a splash screen on first boot showing docs
[08:34] <jsgotangco> quickguide for example
[08:35] <froud> dont understand
[08:36] <jsgotangco> ahhh forget about it for now october is a long way
[08:36] <jsgotangco> we'll just hack first
[08:36] <froud> yeah
[08:36] <froud> OK, I must get doing with my day. Keep up the great work on kwickguide
[08:36] <froud> I really like it
[08:36] <froud> think you have done a super job
[08:37] <jsgotangco> thanks it should be finished soon before i jump to another doc
[08:37] <jsgotangco> dont like to work on multiple docs
[08:37] <froud> yeah, once you have it we can upload it to Kubuntu web site
[08:37] <froud> that's ok
[08:37] <froud> you like to focus
[08:37] <jsgotangco> who hosts kubuntu.org?
[08:37] <froud> I understand that
[08:37] <froud> Riddle
[08:37] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[08:37] <jsgotangco> that's weird
[08:38] <froud> why
[08:38] <jsgotangco> but amu contributes heavily
[08:38] <froud> yes, he has an account
[08:38] <jsgotangco> well at least kubuntu is a kde testbed
[08:38] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:38] <jsgotangco> let me get this straight
[08:38] <jsgotangco> riddell has commit to ubuntu
[08:38] <froud> yes
[08:38] <jsgotangco> but kubuntu stuff it just pulled?
[08:39] <froud> kinda
[08:39] <froud> dont let it worry you
[08:39] <jsgotangco> no it doesnt
[08:39] <froud> good :-)
[08:39] <jsgotangco> im just surprised
[08:39] <froud> Ok, thanks for all the work you are doing, c you later jsgotangco 
[08:39] <jsgotangco> ok see you
[09:48] <mvirkkil> is it ok to use text/x-docbook+xml as the mimetype?
[11:02] <mdke> morning all
[11:03] <jsgotangco> mdke, hey
[11:03] <jsgotangco> top of the morning to you
[11:03] <mdke> same to you
[11:03] <jsgotangco> where's your work?
[11:03] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:04] <jsgotangco> no not that legal crap
[11:04] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:05] <mdke> hey i did a commit last night ;)
[11:05] <jsgotangco> hehe i had too much green tea today
[11:05] <mdke> made you a http://www.kubuntu.org entity
[11:06] <mdke> strange it wasn't there already
[11:06] <mdke> listen i have a couple of questions
[11:06] <mdke> quite simple
[11:06] <jsgotangco> sure
[11:06] <mdke> how do I make a link to another section in the document
[11:07] <jsgotangco> i think its <xref linkend="id">
[11:09] <jsgotangco> if its outside, you use <ulink url="foo/c">blah</ulink>
[11:11] <mdke> sure
[11:12] <jsgotangco> hehehe that's a really nice thread
[11:24] <mdke> wow he got a bit of a tough time
[11:25] <jsgotangco> thats why we need to whip people here
[11:26] <mdke> hmmm
[11:26] <jsgotangco> hmmm?
[11:26] <mdke> no quite the FOSS spirit jsgotangco, whipping people ;)
[11:26] <jsgotangco> baj
[11:26] <jsgotangco> bah
[11:27] <jsgotangco> you just don't want to be whipped
[11:27] <mdke> true
[11:28] <jsgotangco> i wonder if our cd has rawrite or something
[11:29] <jsgotangco> to create a boot disk
[11:30] <mdke> which cd?
[11:31] <jsgotangco> hoary
[11:32] <mdke> ask Kamion
[11:35] <mdke> there is a guy writing some installation tutorials in the wiki
[11:36] <mdke> i keep leaving messages saying "work with us, we are already writing such documents" but he doesn't seem to listen
[11:39] <jsgotangco> yeah it happens
[11:39] <jsgotangco> some people still dont get the concept of FOSS development
[11:43] <mdke> well its filed under the docteam pages
[11:43] <mdke> and i seem to remember that he's posted to the list
[11:44] <mdke> he's just not using work that has already been done
[11:44] <mdke> has mako got back to you about your CoC yet?
[11:46] <abelli> ciao 
[11:46] <abelli> Kinnison: ding
[11:48] <mdke> hi abelli 
[11:58] <jsgotangco> no why i've already signed my CoC
[11:59] <jsgotangco> did you?
[11:59] <mdke> i signed it but i think he is quite busy right now
[12:00] <jsgotangco> oh that means he hasn't replied back to you
[12:00] <jsgotangco> well im not rushing
[12:00] <jsgotangco> what happens next anyway
[12:00] <mdke> no idea
[12:00] <mdke> but i'm concerned my signature isn't valid
[12:00] <mdke> my key is only signed by henrik and his isn't signed by anyone ;)
[12:01] <mdke> np
[12:01] <jsgotangco> no your key is supposed to be valid but its untrusted at the moment
[12:01] <jsgotangco> (i have your key)
[12:01] <jsgotangco> (and i dont trust you either)
[12:01] <jsgotangco> hehe
[12:01] <jsgotangco> just kiddding
[12:02] <mdke> as i say, only henrik has signed it
[12:02] <jsgotangco> oh it doesnt matter actually
[12:02] <jsgotangco> let me refresh your key
[12:02] <mdke> if I do a --refresh-keys it always times out after 5 people or so :/ weird
[12:03] <jsgotangco> i just use enigmail
[12:03] <mdke> if i do em one at a time its ok tho
[12:03] <jsgotangco> did henrik sign your key already?
[12:03] <mdke> yes
[12:04] <jsgotangco> ok let me refresh your key to check
[12:04] <mdke> but as i say, his isn't signed for some reason
[12:05] <mdke> wtf is enigmail?
[12:06] <mdke> oh that's rather cool
[12:06] <jsgotangco> yeah its a thunderbird plugin
[12:07] <mdke> it has a key management interface, sweet
[12:07] <jsgotangco> it makes things so easy
[12:11] <mdke> afk
[12:42] <jsgotangco> oh well happy weekend to you all
[03:16] <froud> Ouch!!!! http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html?partner=rss
[03:16] <Burgundavia> there is more fud, related
[03:16] <Burgundavia> let me dig up the link
[03:21] <Burgundavia> http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=12185&hed=An+End+to+Free+Linux+Support&sector=Profiles&subsector=Companies
[03:23] <froud> Burgundavia: I fear there is touble in the brewing
[03:23] <Burgundavia> nah, is just the usual fud
[03:24] <Burgundavia> someone needs to point them to git
[03:24] <froud> NOt when it includes Mc Voy
[03:24] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:24] <froud> he is close to the community
[03:24] <Burgundavia> he looks like he can market himself well
[03:24] <froud> he knows the business
[03:24] <froud> many follow him
[03:25] <froud> if we see a wave of software product sgoing this way, then there is a problem
[03:25] <froud> the point about innovation is also true
[03:25] <froud> I hav enot seen much innovation in FOS
[03:25] <froud> great apps yes
[03:26] <froud> but at the lower levels of technology there is a need
[03:26] <Burgundavia> I think that is fud
[03:26] <Burgundavia> I have seen innovation at all places in FOSS
[03:26] <Burgundavia> but you usually see is all the messy steps in between
[03:26] <froud> you think Mc Voy is just talking
[03:26] <Burgundavia> which is usually hidden by prop. companies, like apple
[03:27] <froud> I dunno
[03:27] <froud> Mc Voy doe snot say much unless he has something to say
[03:27] <Burgundavia> Beagle? F-spot?
[03:27] <Burgundavia> mcvoy is pissed that he lost his plum candidate
[03:27] <froud> It would be good to see a community or free sf reaction to this
[03:27] <Burgundavia> he wanted his cake and to eat it too
[03:27] <froud> plum candidate?
[03:28] <froud> what did I miss
[03:28] <Burgundavia> the linux kernel was fantastic advertising for him
[03:28] <froud> OK, I c
[03:28] <Burgundavia> yes, he had to do a bunch of work, but that work that was needed to be done
[03:28] <froud> so he's been playing tuant all this time?
[03:29] <Burgundavia> http://www.bitkeeper.com/
[03:29] <Burgundavia> tell me what you see on that page
[03:29] <Burgundavia> front and centre
[03:29] <froud> yeah I know the problem
[03:29] <Burgundavia> you see a quote from Linux
[03:29] <Burgundavia> inux
[03:29] <Burgundavia> linus
[03:29] <Burgundavia> third time lucky
[03:29] <froud> so he has been playing truant
[03:30] <Burgundavia> mcvoy has been a dickhead, to be honest
[03:30] <froud> but he has made some good points with regard to the business model
[03:30] <Burgundavia> bah, mostly garbage
[03:30] <froud> as we have seen RH and SuSE > NLD
[03:30] <froud> makes you wonder
[03:31] <Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=37197
[03:31] <froud> dont get me wrong I believe strongly in FOSS, but I also see many FOSS companies struggling
[03:31] <Burgundavia> yes, but there are a great number of prop. software companies struggling as well
[03:32] <froud> true but they have more revenue
[03:32] <froud> most of the companies I see are on a shoe string budget
[03:33] <Burgundavia> most software companies do very badly
[03:33] <Burgundavia> open source or not
[03:33] <froud> the only thing that keeps them going is community development
[03:33] <Burgundavia> is that a bad thing?
[03:33] <Burgundavia> the community gets the product for free
[03:33] <froud> no, but you need to put bread on the table
[03:33] <Burgundavia> and when the company dies, the software survives
[03:33] <Burgundavia> think of the area of library software
[03:33] <froud> yes
[03:33] <Burgundavia> often very much tied to one company
[03:34] <froud> yeah
[03:34] <Burgundavia> now, say a company goes under, now libraries (who are perenially short of money) now have to spend a lot of money changing vendors
[03:34] <Burgundavia> with an oss alternative, they can just go to the next company
[03:34] <froud> yes, true
[03:34] <Burgundavia> that is the reason taht Koha exists
[03:35] <froud> we know that works
[03:35] <Burgundavia> the company that created it, under contract, gave a shit about the library that they were working for
[03:35] <Burgundavia> and convinced the libary to oss their product
[03:35] <Burgundavia> it now has 3 small companies working on it
[03:35] <froud> yes, the model works in that respect
[03:35] <froud> but when you are a startup
[03:36] <froud> you have no customers yet
[03:36] <froud> innovation without cash can be a problem
[03:36] <Burgundavia> what better way to get customers?
[03:36] <froud> sure free beer
[03:36] <Burgundavia> build a huge buzz
[03:37] <Burgundavia> think, people fixing your bugs for you
[03:37] <froud> Linux is a test platform
[03:37] <froud> software testing is good
[03:37] <froud> anyway, it will be good to see the response
[03:37] <Burgundavia> best simply to ignore forbes
[03:37] <Burgundavia> one voice will not change the fud
[03:38] <Burgundavia> rather than fight a lost battle, built a better mousetrap, and get them with that
[03:39] <Burgundavia> I am coming to the conclusion that there is no place for non-open source stuff in the world
[03:39] <froud> I would not go that far
[03:40] <mdke> http://www.kofler.cc/ubuntu.html
[03:41] <Burgundavia> wow
[03:41] <froud> Hmmm now that is interesting
[03:42] <froud> I wonder if aw paid him
[03:42] <mdke> only in german atm
[03:42] <froud> yeah
[03:42] <froud> but I wonder why he did it closed doors
[03:42] <Burgundavia> Basically, my though pattern boils down to this? Why should a company spend its own good money to develop software (like my ex-employer did) when a free alternative is just as good?
[03:42] <mdke> froud, money?
[03:43] <froud> mdke: you mean if he had done it in the community he would have no moeny?
[03:43] <froud> Burgundavia: some software should be closed
[03:44] <Burgundavia> froud, such as?
[03:44] <froud> Burgundavia: some software is just to intimate by nature for open dev
[03:44] <froud> ERP Business Logic
[03:44] <froud> Even compaire
[03:44] <froud> the main development is done by paid people
[03:44] <froud> not much comes from community in the ERP space
[03:44] <Burgundavia> if you build an engine that companies can plug there own logic into?
[03:45] <Burgundavia> yes, OSS is only starting to penetrate that sort of stuff
[03:45] <froud> I think this is because those systems are so monolithic
[03:45] <Burgundavia> and working on server stuff is boring
[03:45] <froud> banking systems
[03:45] <Burgundavia> banking because of security issues?
[03:45] <froud> well that is an opinion
[03:45] <Burgundavia> they run destroyers on windows
[03:47] <froud> Burgundavia: there is a place for closed source
[03:47] <froud> mdke: you think if he did the book in the community he would hav eno work
[03:47] <froud> sorry no money
[03:47] <mdke> froud, dunno
[03:48] <froud> which begs the question, "How do OSS authors make money?"
[03:48] <mdke> but its a commercial venture
[03:48] <mdke> froud, by doing other things :p
[03:48] <froud> yes, aw must have paid him or he is getting a royalty
[03:48] <froud> that is the traditional set of rules
[03:49] <froud> I would like to discover whether or not the new rule set used in FOSS can apply to authoring
[03:49] <froud> developers and integrators can make money
[03:49] <froud> the model is easy
[03:49] <froud> but how about writers
[03:51] <froud> jjesse: hi
[03:53] <jjesse> hello froud
[03:53] <froud> jjesse: I have informed enrico that you will be sending elmo keys
[03:54] <jjesse> cool thanks :)
[03:54] <froud> anyone got any business models fo rthe doteam
[03:54] <froud> docteam
[03:54] <jjesse> froud gotta run, work emergency
[03:54] <froud> surely we must be able to develop books in the community under open licenses and make money from it
[03:55] <froud> Let's take an example
[03:55] <froud> lets say we decide to write a book and then publish it
[03:55] <froud> we would charge for the printed version
[03:56] <froud> the source and html view would be available on line
[03:56] <froud> do you think we would get sales
[03:57] <froud> perhaps the best person to speak to is Tim O'Reilly
[03:57] <froud> hello enrico 
[03:58] <froud> well, any opinions
[03:58] <froud> :-)
[03:59] <froud> I can register the book with an ISBN, that means we can sell it through all regular cannels
[03:59] <froud> channels
[03:59] <froud> production I can also take care of
[03:59] <froud> so how do we make it happen?
[03:59] <froud> in the community
[04:01] <mdke> *laughs*
[04:01] <mdke> sorry i'm working here
[04:02] <froud> Interesting how we have so many opinions on all sorts of things but when it comes to this we have non :-)
[04:02] <Burgundavia> hmm
[04:02] <Burgundavia> for docs, I think you can make money
[04:02] <Burgundavia> you just need to provide a good service
[04:02] <mdke> i have no idea
[04:02] <Burgundavia> like O'Reilly does
[04:03] <froud> OK, so how do we band togther to protect each others interests
[04:03] <froud> and how many people are we talking about?
[04:03] <enrico> froud: hello!
[04:04] <froud> how would revenue be shared in a way proportionate to the effort
[04:04] <froud> would we be able to trust one another or would we need a broker?
[04:06] <froud> to structure a business model that works for us, that is the question.
[04:08] <froud> He he my books on Python arrived from Amazon today
[04:08] <froud> finally I can start learning
[04:08] <froud> Python Programming for the absolute beginner and Learn Python (the mouse book)
[04:09] <froud> that should be a good combination, right?
[04:10] <froud> lol Opening sentence, "Writing a book is like giving birth-and I have the stretch marks of the brain to prove it." 
[04:18] <froud> wow mdke nice patch yesterday dude :-)
[04:18] <froud> really making progress there
[04:18] <froud> not bad for a legal bunny
[04:24] <mdke> froud, haven't actually written much yet
[04:24] <mdke> but i intend to keep at it
[04:24] <froud> well it was a god patch
[04:24] <mdke> ty
[04:24] <mdke> was the patch to global.ent all ok?
[04:25] <mdke> let me know if i muck anything up ;)
[04:25] <froud> as far as I can see
[04:26] <mdke> cool
[04:26] <mdke> froud, how do i link to another section in the document?
[04:26] <froud> create an id attribute on the target and then xref to it
[04:27] <mdke> ok cool
[04:27] <froud> what do you want to link to
[04:27] <mdke> erm
[04:27] <mdke> not sure yet ;)
[04:27] <froud> chapter sect1
[04:27] <mdke> chapter i think
[04:27] <froud> OK well look in install guide I have a few examples in there
[04:27] <mdke> ok sure
[04:28] <mdke> froud, btw did you see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/InstallationTutorial ?
[04:30] <froud> yeah I was confused by it. Is it an installation or gui tut
[04:30] <Burgundavia> it is every it seems
[04:31] <mdke> well so far its not much
[04:31] <Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BeginnerInstallationTutorial
[04:31] <Burgundavia> well, the plan is for everything
[04:31] <mdke> yeah he also seems to want to do an upgrade tutorial
[04:31] <mdke> something which is currently already done in the releasenotes
[04:31] <froud> I dont understand
[04:32] <froud> is this an install thing or how to us ethe desktop
[04:32] <froud> In the top left-hand corner of your screen there are three menus that look like this.
[04:32] <froud> If you use your mouse to click once on the word "applications", a drop down box will appear. If you click on "applications" a second time the drop down box will disappear. Try doing this now.
[04:32] <froud> The same thing will happen if you click on "Places" and "System" (but not on the three coloured buttons next to "system", you'll learn what to do with them in a minute).
[04:32] <froud> The "Applications" is made up of several sub-menus. The two that you will probably be most interested in are "Internet" and "Office". The "Internet" sub-menu has all the programs on your computer which are for the internet. The "Office" sub-menu has all the programs on your computer which are for writing documents. To open a sub-menu, move your mouse's cursor so that it is on top of the sub-menu you wish to open and it will appear to the r
[04:32] <froud> this is how to work with the gui
[04:32] <froud> not installation
[04:32] <mdke> yes
[04:32] <froud> so why the work is said to be install
[04:33] <mdke> maybe email him?
[04:34] <froud> I like the tut idea
[04:34] <Burgundavia> he has good ideas
[04:34] <froud> but cant see why this is the Installation project
[04:34] <froud> yes he does
[04:34] <Burgundavia> we just need to fold it into our project
[04:34] <froud> yes
[04:34] <froud> and get him to work in svn?
[04:36] <froud> I dont know, lets leave it run and see where it leads
[04:36] <froud> the ideas are good if we get involved we will just throw a spanner in the works
[04:38] <froud> Burgundavia: from GLUG
[04:38] <froud> > On Friday, 27 May 2005 15:04, Sean Wheller wrote: 
[04:38] <froud> > > http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html?pa 
[04:38] <froud> > >rtner=rss 
[04:38] <froud> > 
[04:38] <froud> > IMHO, it's a little fact and a lot of opinion. 
[04:39] <froud> > 
[04:39] <froud> > McVoy is giving his own opinion, which is probably true enough from 
[04:39] <froud> > his point of view. And maybe he's still smarting from the split with 
[04:39] <froud> > the kernel developers. I take his comments with a pinch of salt. 
[04:39] <froud> > 
[04:39] <froud> > alan 
[04:39] <froud> I believe that the rapid advance in the development of git is starting to scare him. It took him 5 years to develop Bitkeeper to the level it is currently in (with the help of Linus, for the initial design). Now Linus is developing an alternative in less that three months, which is almost at the level of Bitkeeper. With some improvements.....
[04:39] <Burgundavia> wow http://www.skolelinux.org/portal/user_experience/test_schools/test_schools_map
[04:39] <Burgundavia> git is not where bitkeeper is 
[04:39] <Burgundavia> git is for development of the linux kernel
[04:39] <Burgundavia> and not much else
[04:40] <Burgundavia> but at least now everything is free, so quilt and git can work better together
[10:32] <venda> good night
[10:33] <mdke> night venda 
[10:33] <mdke> great work on the guide