[12:23] <mdke> sorry
[01:52] <mpt> I'd agree with this bit though
[01:52] <mpt> ""One problem with the services model is that it is based on the idea that you are giving customers crap--because if you give them software that works, what is the point of service?"
[01:52] <mpt> That's why help keeps sucking, for example.
[08:34] <froud> African Greetings
[08:41] <robitaille> and in return, some Canadian greetings
[08:41] <froud> hello robitaille , you're new here. Please to meet you :-)
[08:42] <robitaille> yeah; I have been hanging around here in the background from time to time.
[08:42] <froud> we have quite a few Canadians here
[08:43] <froud> so, are you new to Linux or an old hand?
[08:43] <robitaille> actually live in the same town than Corey Burger.  Still haven't met him yet in real life.
[08:43] <froud> programmer or net admin or writer?
[08:43] <froud> that's cause corey never leaves his computer
[08:43] <froud> :-)
[08:44] <robitaille> Been using Linux since late 1990s.  Formally working as a  system admin...now doing it in the evening while I code in Fortran during the day.
[08:44] <froud> Oh cool, you ever considered helping out on the docs
[08:45] <robitaille> I did.  I did review the hardware database application manual for you just before Hoary was released.   And played with the xhtml strict version of ubuntuguide.org a couple of weeks ago when someone wanted to convert it to docbook
[08:46] <froud> Oh yes, great, now I remember. Thanks for that :-)
[08:46] <froud> well I have ported ubuntuguide.org into docbook so it is now in svn
[08:47] <froud> still needs some work
[08:47] <froud> the port is mostly a manual thing
[08:47] <robitaille> I have been doing all sort of little things around  Ubuntu for the last few months;   I'll probably try to help when some of the wiki gets converted using the template you probided the other day
[08:48] <robitaille> s/probided/provided/
[08:48] <froud> Great, that would be a good help
[08:48] <froud> Your a sysadmin, so how about writing for the Admin Guide?
[08:49] <froud> The outline is done
[08:49] <froud> of cours eyou are free to change the outline
[08:50] <robitaille> I could take a look at it at one point;  I'm not that great of  a writer in the first place, and english isn't my first language. But besides that, I'm sure I could help a bit.
[08:50] <froud> we dont expect shakespear
[08:51] <froud> b'side others will edit and reveiw
[08:51] <froud> if you see a section you would like to do or feel there is something on the wiki you can port, insert to one of the existing docs are create a new doc, just go for it
[08:52] <froud> if the docbook is problematic, we will help you out with that
[08:52] <robitaille> is the outline in the svn?
[08:52] <froud> yes
[08:52] <froud> you can find it under https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/gnome/adminguide/C
[08:54] <robitaille> thanks. got it
[08:54] <froud> so you know how to svn then, that's good
[08:55] <robitaille> yes; thanks for the great wiki pages for the doc group.  I have been reading a little bit about docbook; I have to write some small doc at work, and I'l probably try to to it in that format as a learning experience.
[08:56] <robitaille> I have done html/xhtml in the past, so it's not that foreign in concept 
[08:56] <froud> OK, well if you need help just give me a shout
[11:01] <mdke> morning all
[11:16] <mdke> what do you guys think about deleting pages without much material on the wiki? I guess we're going to be deleting quite a few pages during the transition... i was looking at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QTThemeWithoutKDE
[05:37] <jiyuu0> finally i removed marillat
[05:37] <Kinnison> Heh
[05:37] <jiyuu0> and added backports in the main sources.list
[05:37] <Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
[05:38] <jiyuu0> the only thing that will use the marillat is acroread and transcode 
[05:38] <jiyuu0> if only backports has it... then can 100% marillat free :)
[09:29] <mdke> *grins*
[09:29] <mdke> jiyuu0, now all you have to do is remove backports :p
[09:29] <jiyuu0> remove backports?
[09:29] <jiyuu0> i just added it
[09:30] <jiyuu0> quite some changes made
[09:30] <jiyuu0> but it's worth it
[09:30] <jiyuu0> java, azureus, nvu... more updates
[09:32] <mdke> updates are detested by the ubuntu developers
[09:33] <mdke> they don't pay any attention to packaging policy
[09:33] <mdke> but most users want them i suppose
[09:34] <jiyuu0> ic
[09:34] <jiyuu0> but at least it's better than marillat
[09:34] <jiyuu0> in the sense... backports is meant for ubuntu
[09:34] <mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports
[09:35] <mdke> my personal reason for disliking the backport project is that it encourages the "I must have the latest version of everything" attitude, without explaining that this compromising stability
[09:35] <mdke> but thats IMO
[09:36] <jiyuu0> well... take e.g. firefox 1.0.4
[09:36] <jiyuu0> it's considered to be stable and official
[09:36] <jiyuu0> and why is ubuntu devel not updating
[09:36] <jiyuu0> i mean it fixes security and stuff
[09:36] <venda> jiyuu0: I am just about to make a big commit on this thing will you pleas eprovide patch to align your changes
[09:37] <jiyuu0> venda, what patch?
[09:37] <jiyuu0> i'm not the developer of backports
[09:37] <mdke> jiyuu0, he means the guide
[09:38] <mdke> jiyuu0, do you seriously think that the ubuntu developers don't update security problems?
[09:38] <mdke> jiyuu0, the firefox fixes are included in the Ubuntu security updates
[09:38] <mdke> jiyuu0, ALL security issues are fixed
[09:38] <jiyuu0> ok :)
[09:39] <jiyuu0> is there going to be a conflict with backports?
[09:39] <mdke> the version name does not change because they are patched
[09:39] <venda> jiyuu0: yes, the ubuntu guide. can you please add any changes you have made to the docbook xml version in svn. Thanks
[09:39] <mdke> jiyuu0, yes there is a conflict. backports are safe if properly pinned I believe
[09:40] <jiyuu0> ok. just spent one whole day on ubuntuguide
[09:40] <venda> so did I
[09:40] <jiyuu0> now waiting for the add-on-cd to be uploaded
[09:40] <venda> see commit list
[09:42] <venda> oh that's handy
[09:43] <venda> jiyuu0: will you do the update?
[09:43] <venda> jiyuu0: have you sent your public pgp key to elmo yet?
[09:43] <jiyuu0> not yet...
[09:44] <jiyuu0> i'll look into it... but i need instructions
[09:44] <jiyuu0> subversion and stuff
[09:44] <jiyuu0> ok.. gotta crash... nearly 4am
[09:44] <jiyuu0> c'ya tomorrow
[09:45] <venda> you have a working copy still
[09:45] <venda> just svn update
[09:45] <venda> make updates to FAQGuide
[09:45] <venda> make diff and send us the diff
[09:46] <jiyuu0> ok... i'll workn on the svn from 3.0 onwards
[09:46] <venda> Huh?
[09:46] <jiyuu0> UbuntuGuide 3.0 just release today
[09:47] <venda> Ok what about the changes you have made now, can you do the changes in svn?
[09:47] <jiyuu0> major change -> removed marillat and use backports (as lot requested)
[09:47] <venda> please send me diff between your html files
[09:48] <venda> mdke: to save the translators major work
[09:48] <venda> mdke: I wonder if we can create a pot of en version
[09:48] <venda> and copy paste from nn versions into po files
[09:48] <mdke> of what?
[09:48] <venda> then submit these to rosetta
[09:49] <venda> ubuntuguide.org (FAQGuide)
[09:49] <mdke> i spent like a week trying to get a pot out of it, no go
[09:49] <venda> no no
[09:49] <venda> I mean, from the xml version
[09:49] <venda> once we have it finsihed we can create POT
[09:49] <mdke> that is the plan for breezy yeah
[09:49] <venda> then create po files
[09:50] <jiyuu0> first time using diff
[09:50] <venda> can copy paste the strings from nn HTML files into respective po files
[09:50] <jiyuu0> diff file1 file2?
[09:50] <mdke> jiyuu0, diff file1 file2 > file.diff i think
[09:50] <venda> diff foo1 foo2 > foo3
[09:50] <venda> mail foo3 to list
[09:51] <venda> if you can do this I will upgrade xml in svn to 3.0
[09:51] <jiyuu0> the output not easy to read
[09:51] <jiyuu0> what version is the svn?
[09:51] <venda> svn 1.0
[09:51] <venda> I can read diff well
[09:51] <venda> let me take care of it
[09:52] <venda> or send me new HTML 3.0 and I will diff it for you
[09:52] <venda> sean@inwords.co.za
[09:52] <jiyuu0> the last 2.09 is here
[09:52] <jiyuu0> http://frankandjacq.com/ubuntuguide/5.04/index.html
[09:52] <jiyuu0> the new 3.00 is
[09:52] <jiyuu0> http://ubuntuguide.org/index.html
[09:52] <venda> OK
[09:52] <venda> got it
[09:53] <jiyuu0> btw, just curious what will the svn of the guide turn to?
[09:53] <mdke> jiyuu0, it can turn into anything
[09:53] <mdke> yelp, pdf, html
[09:53] <jiyuu0> i don't really like yelp
[09:53] <venda> what format do you want?
[09:53] <mdke> if it is made official it can go on the Ubuntu website
[09:54] <venda> I can make PDF
[09:54] <venda> or X/HTML if it is better for you
[09:54] <jiyuu0> can u send me a sample of PDF
[09:54] <jiyuu0> jiyuu0@gmail.com
[09:54] <jiyuu0> just curious how it will look like
[09:55] <venda> yes, once we have version in svn complete
[09:55] <mdke> the great thing is that it can be published in many ways
[09:55] <venda> jiyuu0: we would also like to profile this doc for kubuntu
[09:55] <jiyuu0> but i'm still going to maintain ubuntuguide as it is right?
[09:55] <mdke> and therefore can go in the Ubuntu local system, and on the website, and on the livecd etc
[09:55] <jiyuu0> as it suites my preference
[09:56] <venda> we would like to take Judos
[09:56] <mdke> jiyuu0, the point of putting it in svn is that it would be a community project
[09:56] <venda> if you want to maintain ubuntuguide.org you can
[09:57] <venda> but we cannot say what will happen to the version in svn
[09:57] <venda> we expect people in the community to develop it
[09:57] <mdke> if it will go on the ubuntu website and on the ubuntu local system, it will have to be modified fairly heavily
[09:58] <venda> while I was marking it up as docbook I got some ideas that I think will improve it
[09:58] <venda> I am sure others will do the same
[09:58] <jiyuu0> what ideas?
[09:58] <mdke> jiyuu0, but that doesn't stop you from developing the guide on your website as you wish
[09:58] <venda> :-) JOin us and let's share them dude
[09:58] <jiyuu0> so SVN will be more detailed
[09:59] <mdke> not necessarily
[09:59] <jiyuu0> the ubuntuguide.org will still maintain in it's point form (for easier reference)
[09:59] <venda> its a faq, so detail is not wanted
[09:59] <mdke> jiyuu0, the point form is good
[09:59] <venda> the version in svn is a question and answer format
[09:59] <venda> Q A
[09:59] <venda> qanda
[09:59] <mdke> does it validate?
[10:00] <venda> not yet
[10:00] <venda> working on it
[10:00] <venda> jiyuu0: here is a small example

[10:01] <venda>                 <question>
[10:01] <mdke> yes i've seen how hard you are working on it
[10:01] <venda>                     <para>Configuring network interfaces... (taking too long to load)</para>
[10:01] <venda>                 </question>
[10:01] <venda>                 <answer>
[10:01] <venda>                     <orderedlist>
[10:01] <venda>                         <listitem>
[10:01] <venda>                             <para>Read <xref linkend="temporaryskipboot-upservices"/>
[10:01] <venda>                             </para>
[10:01] <venda>                         </listitem>
[10:01] <venda>                     </orderedlist>
[10:01] <venda>                 </answer>
[10:01] <venda>             </qandaentry>
[10:02] <venda> yeah, my next step is to resolve the xref
[10:02] <venda> mdke: we want to bring in KUDOS to this guide
[10:02] <mdke> cool
[10:02] <venda> that way we will have a book for ubuntu and a book for kubuntu
[10:03] <mdke> that would be excellent
[10:03] <venda> but KUDOS is large
[10:03] <venda> larger than ubuntuguide.org :-(
[10:03] <venda> I hope he has docbook src already
[10:03] <mdke> unlikely
[10:03] <venda> yeah
[10:03] <mdke> is it significantly different to jerome's document?
[10:04] <venda> some stuff is duplicated
[10:04] <venda> its a faq
[10:04] <venda> jerome is doing quickguide
[10:04] <jiyuu0> kudus is like a book
[10:04] <jiyuu0> lot's of explanations and stuff
[10:05] <mdke> i c
[10:05] <jiyuu0> it's good in a way i's bad
[10:05] <mdke> maybe those can be cut out if it is converted to a faqguide
[10:05] <venda> yes, it has pros and cons
[10:05] <mdke> and inserted into a userguide
[10:05] <venda> we need to normalize it
[10:05] <mdke> ok i'm gonna hook up to the userguide and see if I can do somemore work on it
[10:05] <mdke> see ya later
[10:06] <jiyuu0> ok... i've really gotta crash
[10:06] <venda> jiyuu0: night
[10:06] <mdke> night jiyuu0 
[10:06] <mdke> thanks
[10:06] <jiyuu0> night :)
[10:20] <mkde> argh
[10:20] <mkde> venda!!
[10:20] <mkde> the userguide doesn't open anymore.
[10:20] <mkde> have you removed entities?
[10:20] <mkde> or added some invalidly
[10:21] <mkde> pasting you the errors
[10:23] <mkde> froud_, venda ?
[10:31] <_venda> sorry crash mdke paste again
[10:31] <mkde> just do ./validate.sh on the userguide
[10:31] <mkde> :/
[10:31] <mkde> entities are missing
[10:32] <venda> OK I will resolve them
[10:32] <mkde> ty
[10:32] <mkde> how come it happened?
[10:32] <venda> I may have merged and missed something :-)
[10:33] <mkde> ok np
[10:33] <mkde> we need a "no removing entities without grepping around for them first" rule tho :p
[10:34] <venda> no its not a merge problem I see the problem now
[10:35] <venda> gimme a sec
[10:35] <mkde> awesome
[10:35] <mkde> what was it
[10:36] <venda> I forgot a whitespace and also duplicated an entity
[10:37] <mkde> is that all?
[10:37] <mkde> gosh
[10:37] <mkde> so all the remaining entities weren't found?
[10:38] <venda> svn up
[10:38] <venda> try it now
[10:38] <mkde> ok thanks
[10:38] <mkde> bingo
[10:38] <mkde> works
[10:38] <venda> yes, an invalid entity is a blocker
[10:38] <venda> he he
[10:38] <mkde> its always the damn typos
[10:38] <venda> yeah
[10:38] <mkde> i hate them
[10:39] <venda> that's programming for you ;-)
[10:39] <mkde> today it was a - instead of a = that mucked me up
[10:43] <mkde> still here?
[10:43] <venda> yep
[10:43] <mkde> can i check that xref with ya
[10:43] <mkde> its a chapter
[10:44] <venda> which xref
[10:44] <venda> in faq
[10:44] <mkde> you remember i asked you how to do it
[10:44] <mkde> i've sort of forgotten
[10:44] <venda> :-( yes
[10:44] <mkde> <xref something="id"></xref>
[10:44] <venda> oh
[10:44] <venda> xref linkend="target-id"
[10:45] <mkde> awesome
[10:45] <venda> you can also bring in text
[10:45] <venda> like this
[10:45] <mkde> so how is this:
[10:45] <venda> xref linkend="target-id" endterm="title-target-id"
First and foremost you must have a working connection to the internet. To find out how to set this up, see <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet">this section</xref>
[10:45] <mkde> hmm
[10:46] <venda> no
[10:46] <mkde> :/
[10:46] <venda> <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
[10:46] <mkde> ok
[10:47] <mkde> so i just need to insert the /?
[10:47] <venda> this will create the text for you
[10:47] <venda> the id is in the same file right?
[10:47] <mkde> yes
[10:47] <venda> ok xref is an open tag
[10:47] <venda> when the proc does its work the xsl will do the rest
[10:48] <venda> it will say, see the Chapter "Title of Chapter"
[10:48] <mkde> so i can't define the text that is linked
[10:48] <mkde> ok
[10:48] <venda> or it will say, see the section "Title of Chapter"
[10:49] <mkde> ok so:
[10:49] <mkde> To find out how to set this up, see the section <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
[10:49] <venda> it will do the words for you
[10:50] <venda> To find out how to set this up, see <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
[10:50] <venda> this will become
[10:50] <venda> To find out how to set this up, see the section <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
[10:50] <mkde> ok
[10:50] <mkde> clever
[10:50] <mkde> whats the policy on linking to other documents?
[10:50] <venda> To find out how to set this up, see the section $target-text
[10:51] <venda> we don't yet support olink
[10:51] <venda> I hope to add this support before 5.10
[10:52] <mkde> i guess the problem is that they would be published in different places, not just yelp, like on the website, so linking between documents is not easy
[10:52] <venda> but not impossible ;-)
[10:53] <mkde> that would be supercool
[11:00] <mkde> gnome help seems to be back at 2.6 on my system
[11:00] <mkde> GNOME 2.6 Desktop System Administration Guide
[11:00] <venda> dunno I am on Kubuntu right now
[11:01] <mkde> that sucks balls
[11:01] <mkde> maybe gnome 2.10 hasn't got a help yet
[11:02] <Burgundavia> Sun also just stopped supporting some gnome docs
[11:02] <Burgundavia> so the gnome doc team is in a real mess
[11:03] <venda> yeah I saw that
[11:03] <mkde> ic
[11:03] <mkde> how would I link to the synaptic help?
[11:03] <venda> just dont
[11:04] <venda> interlinking does not work without olinks
[11:04] <mkde> ?
[11:04] <mkde> but the whole userguide has links to other help docs
[11:04] <mkde> like this:
[11:04] <mkde> <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:sound-juicer"
[11:04] <mkde>                         >here</ulink>
[11:04] <venda> yeah
[11:04] <mkde> does that not work?
[11:05] <venda> dont use ghelp
[11:05] <mkde> how come?
[11:05] <venda> it should not be used
[11:05] <mkde> ,,,
[11:05] <venda> ties us in to yelp
[11:05] <mkde> ah
[11:05] <venda> remain neutral
[11:05] <mkde> so what should I do just copy all those documents?
[11:06] <venda> no
[11:06] <mkde> remove all the:
[11:06] <venda> if the doc is online use it
[11:06] <mkde>                 <para> A more thorough explanation of the ins and outs of <application>Sound
[11:06] <mkde>                     Juicer</application> can be found <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:sound-juicer"
[11:06] <mkde>                         >here</ulink>. </para>
[11:06] <mkde> there will be lots to remove
[11:06] <venda> yes, it was a problem
[11:06] <mkde> especially because the userguide attempts to do an overview
[11:06] <mkde> it is useful to refer a user to a more detailed doc
[11:06] <venda> the user guide need to explain in itself
[11:07] <venda> arh perhaps I can call you
[11:07] <venda> msg your number to me
[11:07] <mkde> i'll call i have a cheap thing
[11:07] <mkde> whats the land line again
[11:08] <venda> +27 11 678 4496
[11:09] <mkde> gimme a mo
[11:09] <mkde> cheap thing is slow tonight, everyone is calling ;)
[11:10] <mkde> ok
[11:10] <mkde> ring ring
[11:10] <venda> no ring
[11:11] <mkde> stupid thing
[11:11] <mkde> give it time
[11:11] <venda> the number is right
[11:11] <mkde> ok
[11:12] <mkde> trying again
[11:13] <mkde> ring ring?
[11:13] <venda> no ring ring
[11:13] <mkde> :/
[11:13] <venda> cheap thing no work
[11:13] <venda> me call you
[11:13] <venda> what number
[11:13] <mkde> damn
[11:14] <mkde> +44 207 476 3259
[11:14] <mkde> perhaps the lines are clogged this evening
[11:14] <venda> ring ring
[11:35] <mkde> :)