[11:35] <Seveas> ah narf
[10:00] (mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) welcome, everyone
[10:00] (ogra/#ubuntu-meeting) hey :=
[10:00] (ogra/#ubuntu-meeting) :)
[10:00] (Nafallo/#ubuntu-meeting) sabdfl: evening
[10:00] (ajmitch/#ubuntu-meeting) hi
[10:00] (ivoks/#ubuntu-meeting) evening
[10:00] (dholbach/#ubuntu-meeting) hey
[10:00] (fabbione/#ubuntu-meeting) evening
[10:00] (zul/#ubuntu-meeting) evening sabdfl 
[10:00] (mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) MaintainerCandidates is stale; there are people at the top who were already processed
[10:01] (mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) is " Daniel 'Daniel N' Neuenschwander" present?
[10:01] <mdz> how about AnteKaramatic?
[10:01] <ivoks> here
[10:01] <ivoks> evening all
[10:02] <ogra> hey ivoks  :=
[10:02] <ogra> ;)
[10:02] <ivoks> ogra: ;)
[10:02] <mdz> ivoks: so you have been working with the MOTU team?
[10:02] <ivoks> mdz: for couple of weeks, yes
[10:02] <ivoks> mostly on cxx transition
[10:02] <diamond> apologies for not showing up the last time btw, lost net access for the last week -/
[10:02] <mdz> ogra,dholbach: what is your assessment?
[10:03] <dholbach> he did QUITE a lot of work on the c++ transition
[10:03] <ogra> mdz, seen my last mail to -devel ?
[10:03] <ogra> :=)
[10:03] <mdz> ogra: I doubt it
[10:03] <ogra> thumbs up from me
[10:03] <mdz> in your opinion, is he ready to make unreviewed uploads to universe?
[10:04] <dholbach> he is unstoppable and works nice with the team, i'm happy with ivoks on our side
[10:04] <ivoks> ok... if I can say something...
[10:04] <\sh> ivoks++ ..hes great
[10:04] <mdz> ivoks: of course
[10:04] <ivoks> i;m not planing to do unreviewd uploads right away..
[10:04] <ivoks> i'm more of a team player
[10:04] <ivoks> and will allways want second oppinion on somethign
[10:05] <ogra> i know he doesnt feel safe yet, but his changes were good and you could see the learning curve, he works tight with \sh and herve, so it would be ok for me 
[10:05] <ivoks> same thing with packages
[10:05] <mdz> ivoks: well, that is the privilege we are discussing: if you are granted upload privileges, it is left to your discretion
[10:05] <dholbach> hey jani
[10:05] <jani> hey dholbach :), all
[10:05] <mdz> ivoks: so I should rather say, "ready to choose whether an upload requires review"
[10:05] <ivoks> mdz: right
[10:05] <mdz> does anyone else have anything to say regarding ivoks?
[10:05] <ogra> \sh,  ??
[10:06] <\sh> yeah
[10:06] <dholbach> doko?
[10:06] <ajmitch> no, apart from that he'd be a welcome addition to the team
[10:06] <ogra> herve is missing sadly...
[10:06] <dholbach> i highly appreciate this sense of cautiousness
[10:06] <\sh> what i saw from ivoks, it was good enough (for me)...and when something wasn't ok, he fixed it accordingly
[10:06] <sabdfl> ivoks: looks like you've been working with software for some time
[10:07] <Mithrandir> mdz: I'm happy with ivoks as motu
[10:07] <sabdfl> nonetheless, software from Universe goes out to thousands of computers, so it requires a high level of responsibility
[10:07] <ivoks> sabdfl: well, my job requiers me to to that, so one learns something on the way
[10:07] <ivoks> sabdfl: i know, i'm ready for it
[10:08] <ivoks> responsibility, that is
[10:08] <sabdfl> erk
[10:08] <\sh> ivoks grew in the last couple of weeks (imho)
[10:08] <ogra> sabdfl, ivoks is ver cautious about his work and always asks for a second opinion
[10:08] <sabdfl> you're not actually 16, are you
[10:08] <ivoks> sabdfl: nope, 23
[10:08] <elmo> SPETHIAL
[10:08] <sabdfl> 'k
[10:08] <sabdfl> i'll shut up then
[10:08] <sabdfl> was trying to find a nice way to put it
[10:08] <ivoks> :)
[10:08] <mdz> ivoks == AnteKaramatic
[10:08] <ivoks> yes
[10:09] <ogra> elmo, very :)
[10:09] <mdz> Keybuk,sabdfl: thumbs up/down?
[10:09] <sabdfl> ivoks: given your clustering experience, have you come across the SSI project?
[10:09] <sabdfl> which clustering solution would you think best for ubuntu?
[10:09] <Keybuk> motu seem keen, so I'll give him an up
[10:09] <ivoks> sabdfl: no, i played only with mosix
[10:09] <Keybuk> and he seems to have humility
[10:10] <sabdfl> +1 for ivoks from me
[10:10] <jbailey> .msg Keybuk Like you'd know it if you ever saw it...
[10:10] <mdz> +1 from me as well
[10:10] <ivoks> sabdfl: well, this is load balancing cluster, wich works good with sarge, don't see why it wouldn't do same with ubuntu
[10:10] <mdz> ivoks: congratulations
[10:10] <ogra> HOORAYY
[10:10] <fabbione> mosix is nice
[10:10] <fabbione> +1
[10:10] <fabbione> :)
[10:10] <\sh> yes
[10:10] <diamond> ivoks: grats
[10:10] <ogra> congrats ivoks 
[10:10] <sabdfl> welcome, ivoks
[10:10] <ivoks> ok, it's like draming :)
[10:10] <\sh> ivoks: welcome :) and congrats :)
[10:10] <mdz> diamond: what is your name?
[10:10] <ivoks> thanks all
[10:10] <dholbach> WOW ivoks! ROCK!
[10:10] <diamond> mdz: Stephen Shirley#
[10:10] <ogra> yeah
[10:11] <mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StephenShirley
[10:11] <diamond> mdz: see apology above about not turning up last time (if you haven't seen it) btw
[10:11] <ajmitch> ivoks: good work, welcome :)
[10:11] <ivoks> ajmitch: thanks
[10:11] <surak> ivoks: congrats
[10:11] <mdz> diamond: no worries
[10:11] <ivoks> surak: thanks
[10:11] <ivoks> thank you all
[10:11] <mdz> last week's meeting was announced on short notice and few people were able to make it, it seems
[10:11] <Nafallo> ivoks: congrats :-)
[10:12] <mdz> feedback from the MOTU team on diamond's work thus far?
[10:12] <dholbach> Stephen "Captain Pedantic Pants" Shirley did great work before the hoary release, i remember some non-trivial cases he fixed
[10:12] <ivoks> Nafallo: :) tnx
[10:12] <dholbach> but you've been busy in the last time, diamond, right?
[10:12] <ogra> yep.. he was quite active in hoary
[10:12] <diamond> dholbach: aye
[10:12] <ogra> and did a good work
[10:12] <ajmitch> far more active than some of us other MOTUs :)
[10:13] <diamond> dholbach: i do sys admin for the university computer club, it's been chewing up a lot of my time recently with irc setup, i'd like to merge some of that work into ubuntu (and upstream) if i can
[10:13] <sabdfl> diamond: your packages are quite diverse, any particular focus you'd like to bring to ubuntu?
[10:14] <diamond> sabdfl: ah, yeah, those packages are mainly fixed because they were on the list, and i could figure out the isse. my focus is stuff like flexibile authenticaion. the above irc stuff is mainly a pam patch to ircd-hybrid that was written by one of the guys in the comp soc, i'd made a debian package that we're using, i'd like to get it more widespread. that sort of thing
[10:14] <diamond> i'd like to see kerberos auth available for everything,
[10:15] <diamond> ssl enabled (or at least enabable) for all services, things like that
[10:15] <sabdfl> cool, thanks
[10:15] <sabdfl> sounds good to me
[10:15] <Mithrandir> krb5++
[10:15] <mdz> Keybuk: +/- ?
[10:16] <JaneW> hi, sorry I am late - connection problems
[10:16] <diamond> i'm like ivoks in that i don't intend to upload anything without review for some time
[10:16] <Keybuk> ogra, dholbach?  + or - from you?
[10:16] <diamond> i've been doing development for a while, but i'm fairly new to debian packaging
[10:16] <ogra> +
[10:16] <dholbach> i'm absolutely happy with him
[10:16] <Keybuk> ok + from me
[10:17] <ogra> sorry got dragged away for a sec.)
[10:17] <\sh> g'evening JaneW 
[10:17] <ivoks> jupi
[10:18] <mdz> + from me, on the basis that he'll seek review and guidance from MOTU where appropriate
[10:18] <mdz> diamond: congratulations
[10:18] <diamond> mdz: thank you -)
[10:18] <mdz> is there anyone else here who is seeking approval for upload/maintainership?
[10:18] <ogra> yay 
[10:18] <ogra> heh
[10:19] <pitti> congrats ivoks and diamond 
[10:19] <\sh> diamond: welcome on board :) and congrats :)
[10:19] <ogra> hugs even
[10:19] <sabdfl> is there a complete list of the MOTU team anywhere?
[10:19] <mdz> sabdfl: I was just wondering the same
[10:19] <dholbach> http:///wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[10:19] <\sh> wiki/MOTU ?
[10:19] <dholbach> oops, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[10:19] <JaneW> dholbach: :)
[10:20] <ogra> ivoks, diamond please add yourself there ;)
[10:20] <mdz> is that 20 members now, then?
[10:20] <ogra> yep
[10:20] <dholbach> yes, mdz :)
[10:20] <mdz> excellent
[10:20] <ivoks> will do :)
[10:21] <mdz> thanks to ogra, dholbach and the rest of the team for successfully recruiting and nurturing new arrivals
[10:21] <sabdfl> seed change proposals?
[10:21] <surak> diamond: congrats
[10:21] <diamond> yeah, bigtime re: ogra and dholbach
[10:21] <ogra> sabdfl, serpentine for main please :)
[10:21] <mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SupportedSeedProposals
[10:21] <dholbach> mdz: i completely enjoy it ... the team itself works just fine
[10:22] <mdz> seb128: is seahorse a reasonable thing to have in main?
[10:22] <ogra> hmm, did it stop breaking things ?
[10:22] <mdz> if it's experimental, we should wait
[10:22] <ogra> i heard about doubled entrys and the like
[10:23] <seb128> mdz: I've not really used it, I can have a look but no opinion on it atm
[10:23] <Keybuk> that's a really out of date list
[10:23] <mdz> yes, we haven't looked at it in quite some time
[10:23] <mdz> due to the release
[10:23] <Mithrandir> it was last reviewed in mataro, wasn't it?
[10:23] <Keybuk> should we officially approve mono for main, or have we already done that? :)
[10:24] <mdz> there are some no-brainers on here
[10:24] <ogra> we should have a better system for package proposals then the wiki... MOTU is just disussing that
[10:24] <mdz> consensus on mono has always been that we should let germinate handle it
[10:24] <mdz> and seed the apps we want
[10:24] <pitti> Keybuk: I reviewed it, fine for me
[10:24] <Keybuk> yeah, that makes sense for me
[10:24] <mdz> so are there mono apps we should put in main?
[10:24] <mdz> is tseng around?
[10:24] <\sh> ogra: we forgot to put this on the agenda ;)
[10:24] <pitti> beagle, even
[10:24] <ogra> mdz, Kamion has the list since last week
[10:25] <Keybuk> there's nothing else on that list that immediately leaps to _my_ attention; so I guess we should ask for proposers to step forward to advocate their app?
[10:25] <mdz> patch-36
[10:25] <mdz>     add beagle, monodevelop, tomboy to supported (ogra)
[10:25] <mdz> so they're already done
[10:25] <mdz> and we just need to resync the archive
[10:25] <sabdfl> yay for tomboy
[10:25] <Keybuk> sabdfl: you installed it yet? :p
[10:25] <mdz> latex-ucs seems like a no-brainer, given pitti's approval
[10:25] <pitti> I still think latex-ucs would be a nice addition, but maybe there are not so many latex users in Ubuntu...
[10:25] <ogra> sabdfl, wiki links in notes ? ;)
[10:26] <sabdfl> waiting for it in main :-)
[10:26] <mdz> sasl2-bin is a no-brainer, given that its source is already in main
[10:26] <pitti> mdz: there is not much potential for breakage, also security-wise
[10:26] <dieman> pitti: i've got a fair number of latex users.
[10:26] <Mithrandir> pitti: seconded.
[10:26] <Keybuk> I've never used latex-ucs, how is it different from latex?  or is just the same with utf-8 .tex file support?
[10:26] <\sh> mdz: much more important should be the applications using sasl2 ;)
[10:26] <pitti> mdz: so I can seed it?
[10:26] <sabdfl> mdz: rather than getting caught on the detail of the packages, maybe it's worth talking about the policy for supported?
[10:27] <sabdfl> for our initial releases it's been strictly what the full-time team felt comfortable supporting
[10:27] <mdz> sabdfl: I think that's sufficiently documented already, no?
[10:27] <mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SeedManagement
[10:27] <Keybuk> fdclock jumps out as a "why do we need yet another clock, let alone support it" to me
[10:27] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: it can be thrown around? :-P
[10:27] <Keybuk> and vnc4server ... doesn't vino already cover that?
[10:27] <sabdfl> as the team grows, we should have the ability to put something in supported if we have sufficient commitment from the community that we think it will actually get supported
[10:28] <Keybuk> (though maybe that's more of a desktop worry than supported)
[10:28] <mdz> all proposals require review/approval from the core team regarding security and supportability
[10:28] <sabdfl> i don't think having someone just say "i'll do it" is sufficient
[10:28] <mdz> currently that's delegated to pitti, which has been working well so far
[10:28] <sabdfl> we need to have a strong feeling that it will happen
[10:29] <mdz> pitti: I already did
[10:29] <sabdfl> but i would be more open to persuasion if we had a list of names of people who are strongly active in the project who support any of those items
[10:29] <pitti> mdz: thanks
[10:30] <sabdfl> something can still be supported ad-hoc in universe, in the sense that updates can also be posted to universe packages post-release
[10:30] <ogra> sabdfl, the MOTU team still needs to grow for such things... trasitions eat our manpower....
[10:30] <mdz> we should probably have a "so you think that package 'foo' should be in Ubuntu main?" how-to document
[10:30] <mdz> pitti: could you draft something like that?
[10:31] <sabdfl> the criteria for main should be that we can provide an absolute assurance of pitti-like security updates, without requiring the clone-pitti branch to have landed
[10:31] <mdz> pitti: include some guidelines about things that you look for in review, so that the proposer can consider those before even requesting review
[10:31] <pitti> mdz: yes, I can
[10:31] <mdz> pitti: great, thanks
[10:31] <sabdfl> well, my point is that we should have a plan to scale main beyond what pitti can handle
[10:31] <sabdfl> but not beyond the point where we are in any doubt of the quality we can deliver
[10:32] <pitti> sabdfl: right now the reviews didn't take so much of my time, it's the updates that do :-)
[10:32] <sabdfl> pitti: the updates are the most important bit
[10:32] <ogra> but that requires a working sec team for universe.... we still dont have it...
[10:32] <sabdfl> i don't see anything on the list that i would want to devote your time to for updates
[10:32] <pitti> sabdfl: right, that's why I don't really like software with a bad security history (which I'm evaluating for the decision)
[10:32] <sabdfl> but we should be willing to consider anything on the list if there is a team of people who will provide the update assurance for it
[10:32] <\sh> ogra: and it will be more difficult when the server projects fires up for real life
[10:33] <pitti> ogra: well, we have the beginnings, but it needs to be developed much further
[10:33] <mdz> thom: do you know if NM's wpa support will use wpa-supplicant, or be native?
[10:33] <sabdfl> pitti: agreed - it shouldnt get in if it doesn't pass the review
[10:33] <ajmitch> ogra: there's a start on a security team for universe
[10:33] <mdz> at any rate, I've seen quite a number of requests for wpa-supplicant
[10:33] <mdz> the protocol seems to be gaining ground
[10:33] <ogra> but the start is there since quite some time, i dont see it evolving yet
[10:33] <mdz> pitti: please add wpa-supplicant to your queue for review; if you're happy with it, it should move into main
[10:33] <ajmitch> mdz: definitely, it's something that ideally should be done via network manager
[10:34] <pitti> mdz: added to my todo
[10:34] <Keybuk> is there any sense in an idea of having main-proposals accompanied by a spec, with appropriate people leading, seconding or expressing interest in it -- including plans for it being in main?
[10:34] <JaneW> Keybuk: isn't that what's happening now?
[10:34] <sabdfl> Keybuk: great idea
[10:35] <Keybuk> JaneW: those proposals don't have specs
[10:35] <sabdfl> JaneW: this is very ad-hoc
[10:35] <mdz> sabdfl,Keybuk: that's going to be overkill in most cases
[10:35] <Keybuk> Kamion would need to check each one too, as one package could drag in half of universe through germinate
[10:35] <sabdfl> difficult to look at "foobarmatic" and contribute to the discussion unless you know what it is. who wants it, who will look at it, who will watch the upstream mailing list for security updates, etc
[10:35] <Keybuk> mdz: a spec can be just a single page saying why the program rocks
[10:35] <Keybuk> it doesn't have to be 2000 words on plans for it
[10:36] <pitti> Keybuk: ... and why it won't break much :-)
[10:36] <mdz> I like the idea, I just don't think we can require it for all cases
[10:36] <mdz> e.g., sasl2-bin
[10:36] <sabdfl> having a page like that gives us place to put a motivation, and document the process, such as whether or not it has been reviewed
[10:36] <sabdfl> mdz: happy for you to fasttrack things
[10:36] <Keybuk> mdz: we can always just rubberstamp obvious things
[10:36] <mdz> ok, agreed then
[10:36] <sabdfl> but where suggestions come in that aren't immediately YES to the TB
[10:37] <mdz> pitti: the proposed document should specify that proposals be accompanied by a written rationale
[10:37] <\sh> mdz: the combination makes it...sasl2 is nice for postfix + cyrus imapd e.g. and postfix is in main and cyrus imapd is old (ubuntu version)
[10:37] <mdz> pitt is authoring the proposed specification for proposal specifications :-)
[10:37] <mdz> we definitely need a place to record rationale
[10:38] <mdz> there are things on SupportedSeedProposals that we can't put in main
[10:38] <mdz> but I don't want to just delete them
[10:38] <pitti> mdz: I think a small wiki page which has the rationale and the points I usually do for review would be fine
[10:38] <Mithrandir> add a new section with "Can't be put in main"
[10:38] <Mithrandir> ?
[10:38] <Kamion> hi, sorry I'm late
[10:38] <elmo> Kamion: part timer
[10:38] <Kamion> Keybuk: germinate> elmo does a post-hoc check on that when adding them to the archive, too
[10:38] <\sh> mdz: so if i like to see an application in main, will it pull the "security deps" into main, too?
[10:38] <mdz> \sh: "security deps"?
[10:39] <Kamion> .msg elmo slack-jawed hippy
[10:39] <mdz> Mithrandir: that's basically what I'm doing now
[10:39] <\sh> mdz: sasl2 is such a thing, postfix+imapd+sasl2 are belonging together for strong auth
[10:39] <mdz> elmo: you actually use scponly?
[10:39] <elmo> mdz: err, not really, no
[10:39] <elmo> that page is freakin ancient
[10:40] <mdz> elmo: please delete any of your stuff from there that is no longer interesting
[10:40] <mdz> I've saved my edits
[10:40] <mdz> I've seeded the obvious ones
[10:40] <Keybuk> if we spec-process it, we could replace that page with one on a moin wiki containing some magic to show all pages with SupportedSeedProposal in them ... and then split based on whether it's a draftspec, rejected, etc.
[10:40] <mdz> the rest of them will need rationales according to the process pitti is documenting
[10:41] <mdz> so let's move on with the agenda
[10:41] <mdz> jbailey: what's the rationale for this oo.o2 stuff?
[10:41] <mdz> we don't have the option of backing down on oo.o2 now; it's already part of desktop
[10:41] <jbailey> mdz: Pulling the Java stuff in to main right now brings two compilers and 3 vms in.  Now that toolchaintransition is mostly done, I can start cleaning it up.
[10:41] <Kamion> the rationale is that it won't build with just main at the moment, and that means we don't get to try out and fix up new milestones
[10:41] <elmo> mdz: is there anything better than scponly?
[10:41] <sabdfl> we could do so priefly during breezy, surely?
[10:42] <jbailey> mdz: But in the meantime, OOo2 needs it and the buildds cycle every 30 minutes not being able to pull in the build-deps.
[10:42] <Kamion> doko's been asking to demote it temporarily to universe for a while now
[10:42] <jbailey> The idea is to pull it out for now, get it all building and happy and move it back.
[10:42] <Keybuk> jbailey: any particular reason it pulls them in?
[10:42] <Keybuk> (in that why doesn't it just pull one?)
[10:42] <elmo> jbailey: err, no they don't
[10:42] <jbailey> Keybuk: Because the packages we inherit from Debian are a bit inconsistant.
[10:42] <elmo> I told lamont to fail stuff that was cycling
[10:42] <diamond> elmo: you can use restricted ssh keys instead of scponly for a more flexible approach
[10:42] <jbailey> elmo: Ah lovely.  That's a change from when I looked before then.
[10:43] <Keybuk> it's ultimately going in main anyway?
[10:43] <jbailey> Right.
[10:43] <Keybuk> so why not leave it there while it's fixed
[10:43] <elmo> diamond: err, not really - keys won't allow you to restrict an account to only scp-ing AFAIK
[10:43] <jbailey> But without also bringing in jikes, sablevm, etc.
[10:43] <Kamion> diamond: restricted ssh keys are more limited
[10:43] <Keybuk> it's not like breezy is otherwise unbroken right now
[10:43] <mdz> diamond: and it'd also be tricky to prevent the user from scping in a new authorized_keys
[10:43] <elmo> Keybuk: the buildds can't violate layers
[10:43] <mdz> jbailey: if you want to disable the java stuff until it builds properly, that's fine
[10:43] <Kamion> diamond: if you try to do that, you have to say "can scp only to this target"
[10:43] <mdz> but I'd rather it just got fixed
[10:43] <elmo> Keybuk: i.e. if main b-d's on stuff beneath main, it won't build, at all, ever
[10:44] <Keybuk> elmo: main can't b-d on stuff beneath it, that's how germinate works! :p
[10:44] <Keybuk> putting something in main implicitly drags in its b-ds
[10:44] <Kamion> Keybuk: not entirely automatically
[10:44] <jbailey> mdz: 'kay.  It'll be a couple weeks before new OOo2's will build usefully.
[10:44] <mdz> Keybuk: germinate != katie
[10:44] <elmo> Keybuk: heh, in germinate's mind sure.  but katie's an indepent kind of gal and has her own idea of what's in main
[10:44] <diamond> elmo, Kamion, mdz: ah, right. my bad
[10:44] <tseng|work> sorry was afk.
[10:44] <mdz> jbailey: can't we revert to the hoary state of affairs, to get it building?
[10:45] <diamond> would be nice if ssh did support it tho
[10:45] <mdz> tseng|work: never mind, it turned out that it had already been dealt with
[10:45] <tseng|work> ok, thanks.
[10:45] <jbailey> mdz: I'll have to ping doko on that part of it, he's away and asked me to proxy the question.  I thought OOo2 was in Universe for Hoary.
[10:45] <jbailey> So didn't really care what all it pulled in.
[10:45] <mdz> jbailey: it was, but it was also building without the java stuff at one point, I thought
[10:45] <elmo> openoffice.org2 | 1.9.79.2-0ubuntu2 |         hoary | source, i386, powerpc
[10:46] <jbailey> I'll ask doko if that's possible.
[10:46] <elmo> it's in main for hoary
[10:46] <Kamion> diamond: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=282339 - but scp is dead, it'd have to be done in sftp
[10:46] <mdz> jbailey: what's involved in fixing the actual breakage?
[10:46] <diamond> Kamion: *nod*
[10:46] <jbailey> mdz: Just going through and cleaning up deps/build-deps to use the prefered java apps.
[10:46] <mdz> elmo: oh, goodie.  does it actually build, I wonder?
[10:46] <jbailey> mdz: That was dep'ing on the C++ transition.
[10:46] <mdz> jbailey: why will that take weeks?
[10:47] <jbailey> mdz: Mostly because I think you want EarlyUserspace first, so I'm aiming for that this week, and Java stuff next week. =)
[10:47] <elmo> mdz: should do, we did do the full rebuild thing twice
[10:47] <mdz> jbailey: is there someone else capable of doing the work for oo.o2/java?
[10:47] <mdz> elmo: good point
[10:47] <sabdfl> i don't mind dropping oo.o2 from desktop for two weeks
[10:47] <jbailey> mdz: wasabi is capable, but is busy since getting his new job.
[10:48] <mdz> sabdfl: what purpose does it serve?
[10:48] <jbailey> mdz: Otherwise, it's just packaging and making sure that any errors that come up get fixed if something was depending on a particular vm quirk.
[10:48] <sabdfl> if it's an irritant in any way
[10:48] <mdz> the only problem it's causing currently is that oo.o2 won't build from source
[10:49] <mdz> jbailey: is oo.o2's breakage holding up the C++ transition or something?
[10:49] <dholbach> isnt it the other way round?
[10:49] <dholbach> c++ -> java -> ooo2?
[10:49] <mdz> it's pretty important that we get oo.o2 into a usable state early in the breezy cycle
[10:49] <mdz> we don't want to end up in the same situation we were in for Hoary
[10:50] <jbailey> mdz: I don't think so.  I think it was largely driven by not irritating the buildds.
[10:50] <mdz> if oo.o2 isn't blocking anything big, I'd prefer for it to stay put
[10:50] <mdz> the buildds can deal
[10:50] <mdz> jbailey: can you ping wasabi and see if he might be available to help us out on this?
[10:51] <mdz> jbailey: (on a bounty basis)
[10:51] <jbailey> mdz: Will do.
[10:51] <elmo> mvo!
[10:51] <elmo> (err, -ECHAN)
[10:51] <mdz> ok, next agenda item was about ServerTeam
[10:51] <sabdfl> THPECIAL
[10:51] <mdz> I have already assigned it a priority, and also responded to infinity's direct inquiry on the subject
[10:51] <sabdfl> (elmo, not the server team)
[10:51] <jbailey> sabdfl: You hate us, admit it ;)_
[10:52] <mdz> it wasn't a tech board matter in the first place
[10:52] <sabdfl> i'm a desktop guy, what can i say
[10:52] <mdz> but anyway, it's dealt with
[10:52] <mdz> any other business before we adjourn?
[10:52] <sabdfl> expansion of this group?
[10:52] <ogra> mdz, seed serpentine to main please... ?
[10:52] <mdz> sabdfl: nominees?
[10:52] <ogra> mdz, thats AudioCDBurning.....
[10:53] <pitti> what about our breezy goals review?
[10:53] <sabdfl> send me nominations, i'll make nominations and we'll have a vote of the developers
[10:53] <sabdfl> to confirm
[10:53] <mdz> ogra: given that seb128 maintains it, seems like a no-brainer
[10:53] <JaneW> pitti: I am just looking through them now
[10:54] <JaneW> hehehe
[10:54] <sabdfl> one question: confirmation of TB members, would that be a vote of main-maintainers, or main-and-motu?
[10:54] <ogra> mdz, yep... just wanted to state i :)
[10:54] <ogra> it even
[10:54] <pitti> JaneW: *blink* :-)
[10:54] <JaneW> some people are being better about giving regular updates than others
[10:54] <Keybuk> sabdfl: isn't it a vote of the existing TB (looking at the web page) ?
[10:54] <sabdfl> Keybuk: no
[10:54] <wasabi_> huh wha?
[10:54] <sabdfl> it's a vote of the developers
[10:54] <sabdfl> but when we decided that, we didn't have the MOTU
[10:54] <sabdfl> (Oxford)
[10:55] <mdz> confirming TB nominations is a weighty responsibility
[10:55] <sabdfl> confirmation of CC should clearly be all members
[10:55] <sabdfl> mdz: nominating them even more so :-)
[10:55] <thom> mdz: wpa-supplicant is the plan, last i heard
[10:56] <sabdfl> i'd like to hear from the TB and the MOTU regarding the TB confirmation vote
[10:56] <JaneW> pitti: was going to give you a gold star for your updates - but I may take it back now!
[10:57] <mdz> it seems logical to me that it should include MOTU
[10:57] <Keybuk> to me too
[10:57] <ogra> mdz++
[10:57] <dholbach> yes, i think so as well
[10:57] <mdz> though to date, I haven't really considered MOTU approvals in that light
[10:58] <JaneW> pitti: it doesn't really help that your updates are 'can someone else do this?'
[10:59] <pitti> JaneW: that was intended to be a reminder for discussing the goals here
[10:59] <Keybuk> JaneW: do you have gold stars to give?
[10:59] <ogra> p/me applauds jbailey 
[10:59] <mdz> pitti: is there a tech board issue to decide regarding the goals?
[10:59] <ajmitch> well done jbailey :)
[10:59] <JaneW> Keybuk: only to those that please me
[10:59] <sabdfl> ok, let's take that to the CC
[10:59] <pitti> mdz: not really, it's more a request for reassign, but that can be done on the ML
[10:59] <sabdfl> is that a wrap?
[11:00] <mdz> any other business before we adjourn?
[11:00] <pitti> mdz: security takes more time than expected, so I feel I should drop some assignments rather early than too late
[11:00] <pitti> mdz: if we had went through the goals page here I had mentioned it, but I'll ask on -devel
[11:01] <mdz> pitti: understood, please try to find candidates within the development team if you can
[11:01] <mdz> ask around if anyone is interested
[11:01] <\sh> well, i don
[11:01] <mdz> looks like we're finished with tech board business
[11:01] <mdz> right on time, too
[11:01] <JaneW> \sh are you volunteering again? ;)
[11:01] <mdz> meeting adjourned, thanks everyone
[11:01] <JaneW> *claps*
[11:01] <dholbach> thanks
[11:01] <\sh> JaneW: no :)
[11:01] <JaneW> thanks mdz
[11:01] <sabdfl> thanks all, night
[11:01] <pitti> thanks mdz
[11:01] <\sh> i need something else :)
[11:01] <JaneW> do you want notes sent out?
[11:01] <ogra> thanks mdz 
[11:02] <mvo> thanks mdz 
[11:02] <dholbach> night sabdfl 
[11:02] <JaneW> night sabdfl
[11:02] <ogra> night sabdfl 
[11:02] <\sh> one question concerning dev and testing stuff on other archs then i386 ...for those who haven't a cage full of hardware ;)
[11:04] <JaneW> pitti: what's happening with MountingHDDFilesystems? There's no comment there
[11:05] <pitti> JaneW: Kamion updated it
[11:06] <JaneW> hmmm, we didn;t discuss cycling meeting times, while sabdfl was here...
[11:06] <JaneW> ah, so he did, thanks
[11:07] <Kamion> I just updated that during the meeting
[11:07] <JaneW> dholbach: GraphicalPartitioningTool update?
[11:07] <Kamion> been working on it today
[11:07] <dholbach> JaneW: yes... wanted to talk to you about it anyway
[11:07] <JaneW> ok.
[11:08] <ogra> Kamion, you recognized serpentine ? could you seed it to main ?
[11:08] <JaneW> Kamion: OEMRescue - any news on that yet? Still drafting?
[11:08] <Kamion> ogra: I haven't been following that conversation
[11:08] <Kamion> JaneW: nothing useful can happen there until OEMInstaller gets much further; I'll put a note on the page to that effect
[11:09] <JaneW> Kamion: oic thanks
[11:09] <ogra> Kamion, its the outcome of AudioCDBurning, mdz approved it...
[11:09] <JaneW> seb128: you here?
[11:09] <seb128> yeo
[11:09] <seb128> yep 
[11:10] <JaneW> Seb128: could you update your BreezyGolas please?  LaunchpadIntegration , and then there's a few specs required for Bounties etc...
[11:11] <seb128> that's planned for tomorrow
[11:12] <JaneW> seb128: ok thanks
[11:12] <Kamion> ogra: ok, done
[11:12] <ogra> Kamion, thanks :)
[11:13] <Kamion> ogra: you need to get your account sorted out so that you can commit to the seeds when stuff's approved for you :)
[11:13] <Simira> JaneW
[11:14] <ogra> Kamion, it waits for elmo.... as may maildresses do
[11:14] <Kamion> ah, ok
[11:14] <ogra> my even
[11:14] <elmo> err, since today, for the record
[11:15] <dholbach> :)
[11:15] <pitti> ogra: just tried to update, too, but you still have the lock :-/
[11:17] <ogra> pitti, grab it :)
[11:18] <ogra> pitti, the prob is that cursor keys crash ff for me, so i have to do the moving in the input field by mouse.... slows down a lot :)
[11:18] <Mithrandir> is there a good reason why the seeds aren't cachereved?  Apart from "nobody has done it"?
[11:18] <pitti> ogra: oh, use mozilla, that works fine
[11:19] <ogra> pitti, hmm...
[11:20] <dholbach> good night
[11:21] <ajmitch> night dholbach 
[11:21] <dholbach> bye andrew
[11:22] <surak> night dholbach
[11:22] <JaneW> sigh
[11:22] <ajmitch> ogra: well done on the green bit ;)
[11:22] <JaneW> night
[11:22] <ogra> night JaneW 
[11:22] <pitti> night JaneW, sleep well
[11:23] <surak> night JaneW
[11:23] <\sh> g'night JaneW 
[11:23] <pitti> JaneW: now we update all of our goals, and you complain again? :-)
[11:23] <JaneW> no I am still here, was saying night to dholbach
[11:23] <JaneW> I am still whipping you guys! ;)
[11:24] <ajmitch> uh oh
[11:24] <ogra> JaneW, whipping _me_ ? 
[11:24] <\sh> ogra: u like it? *shiver*
[11:25] <JaneW> ogra; you are safe (for now) relax
[11:25] <JaneW> Mithrandir, on the other hand...
[11:25] <ogra> hehe
[11:25] <conformistINred> haha, everyone was like, good night JaneW...tsk tsk...
[11:25] <\sh> does anybody has a server with breezy running?
[11:26] <ogra> \sh, who would be _this_ crazy ?
[11:27] <\sh> ogra: well, I want to get rid of SER ;) and I need a test enviroment, where someone can connect to it, and try voip in a real env.
[11:27] <\sh> and my server is full :(
[11:27] <rb> Hi Kamion - I am richard braine, a cruel irony. Mark suggested i speak to you about my ppc install problem.
[11:28] <JaneW> Mithrandir: FasterNetworkedX? update please?
[11:28] <JaneW> rb: that really your surname?
[11:28] <Mithrandir> JaneW: tomorrow, please?  (And if you could drop me a mail, I'd be immensely happy)
[11:29] <JaneW> Mithrandir: oh alright! But just for you ;)
[11:29] <rb> i don't need your pity
[11:29] <rb> too
[11:29] <Mithrandir> JaneW: great, thanks.
[11:29] <JaneW> rb: heheh ok so you have obviously heard the obvious joke...
[11:29] <rb> you've got 5 seconds to laugh
[11:29] <JaneW> bwhahahahhaa!
[11:30] <surak> that was quick
[11:30] <JaneW> ok I'm done
[11:30] <dholbach> haha... hearing jane laughing like that is LOVELY :)
[11:30] <rb> for me the fun of it is that the joke goes on, year after year
[11:30] <JaneW> rb: I sympathise
[11:30] <JaneW> I have the whole Tarzan and Jane thing...
[11:31] <\sh> JaneWonda is new?
[11:31] <rb> that's ok as long as you like being dragged by your hair
[11:31] <rb> so Kamion, are you here?
[11:39] <conformistINred> rb, serious, what ppl tease you cause your last name is braine, and you actually care, and are older than 16?
[11:40] <conformistINred> non, i didnt get that...I guess you dont care...
[11:40] <rb> i don't care
[11:40] <conformistINred> right, I figured in a second...
[11:40] <conformistINred> thanks.
[11:40] <conformistINred> as they say, if it seeems to strange to be true...it likely isnt...
[11:41] <conformistINred> I think I should leave, I cant seem, top resist makibng stupid comments...
[11:41] <JaneW> Mithrandir: e-mail sent (I know you have study pressure, so don;t stress too much, when you can update it will be great)
[11:42] <JaneW> venda: yay thanks :)
[11:42] <venda> cold up here
[11:42] <JaneW> in venda? ;)
[11:43] <rb> Kamion - if you come back, you can get me at http://braine.com
[11:44] <venda> JaneW: what's with SouthAfricanTeam is there some life in the bush
[11:44] <rb> see ya guys and gals.
[11:44] <JaneW> by rb
[11:44] <JaneW> bye even
[11:44] <JaneW> next time I won't rb in how funny his name is
[11:45] <JaneW> *cough* Dick Braine *cough*
[11:45] <surak> night
[11:46] <JaneW> ogra: question, AudioCDBurning is it 100% done, or is there still further testing etc to do?
[11:46] <ogra> JaneW, Completed - Dev work done - still to be tested.
[11:47] <ogra> thats what the wiki says....
[11:47] <JaneW> ogra: because once it;s all tested and working properly and as finished as it;s going to be in the release it can move to implemented
[11:47] <ajmitch> pitti: selinux packages are really in the selinux goal below, not proactivesecurity, right?
[11:47] <JaneW> ogra: ok, that's perfect
[11:47] <ogra> waiting for user tests and bug reports
[11:47] <JaneW> some people were confussed
[11:47] <pitti> ajmitch: well, the specs overlap somehow, but right
[11:47] <JaneW> ogra: ok that was the exact intention of the different greens
[11:47] <venda> night
[11:48] <pitti> ajmitch: btw, any news wrt the pam breakage? it seems to be the only major problem
[11:48] <ogra> its not tested or implemented yet....err... its prtially tested... so it could be a bit brighter :)
[11:48] <pitti> ajmitch: all other packages work fine for me, they should be uploaded asap
[11:48] <ajmitch> pitti: not yet, I can fix it by porting the @include syntax forward to 0.78/.79, but I think it's ugly
[11:53] <\sh> I have bad luck
[11:53] <\sh> now i'm getting only the "unwilling to compile just like this" packages
[11:58] <Kamion> damn, missed rb