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nufanAnyone active?01:12
carthiknufan, just ask :)01:12
carthikI may know the answer, though highly unlikely01:12
nufanIt's to do with helpng out with LaptopTestingHardware on the wiki01:12
carthiknufan, it might be a good idea to ask the entire question in one go :)01:13
nufanI have an iBook and would like to help out, butu I'm not sure if I am 'allowed' to edit the wiki page01:14
carthiknufan, you are01:14
nufanThat's good :P01:15
nufanThank you01:15
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mdkehave cut a few things off the FrontPage01:19
mdkeput them in second level pages01:19
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mkdehow cool is that02:24
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mptcarthik! Fancy seeing you here04:45
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jsgotangcohey Burgundavia 06:52
mpthi Burgundavia07:09
Burgundaviasalut mpt07:10
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vendaAfrican Greetings07:43
Burgundaviasalut venda07:43
vendahello chaps07:45
vendaanyone got time to test that mono help viewer matthew spoke about07:47
jsgotangcowe and Burgundavia talked about it before07:49
jsgotangcoits an api doc app07:49
jsgotangco(not sure if its extensible at the moment(07:49
vendahmm, if the src is there and its mono, then it must be07:56
vendathat beagle thing is cool07:56
vendaI wonder if it can be embeded07:56
=== venda thinks to use it as a search function within help view environment
vendaBurgundavia: you've played with it, what do you think?07:58
Burgundaviaanother doc viewer07:58
Burgundavianothing special, to be honest07:58
vendais it lighter than a browser and yelp/khelpcenter07:59
Burgundaviahmm, didn't really check07:59
Burgundaviamight be07:59
Burgundaviabut it also probably does less07:59
vendayes, tradeoff07:59
vendabut if it is faster, then then our help app can do the main functions08:00
vendawell just an idea08:01
jsgotangcoits quite fast compared to yelp08:03
vendaguys I am thinking to use the MS HTML Format for help, just not to compile it into CHM08:19
vendasee here for information http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/HtmlHelp.html#HHTOCs08:19
vendaInstead of compiling it, we will use a frameset08:19
vendathis will give us all the features of MS help, with the ability to run on the web or under any browser08:20
vendaof ocurse we will not have to encode the docs for windows, we remain at UTF-808:20
Burgundaviahmm, I have no idea, so I will not comment either way08:23
jsgotangcoit would be easier for sure though08:23
vendayes, it is also close to what many of the windows users who try ubuntu are accustomed to08:23
vendaremember what mpt was saying08:24
vendaI think the compromise is to use the technical structure, but remain flexible to customization08:24
vendabut we will not be supporting features like the ms help buttons08:25
vendathose are up to the individual help viewer08:25
vendaif for example somebody develops a help viewer they can always enable the help buttons in their app08:26
mptWhat's an "ms help button"?08:26
vendaI started learning python last week, I hope to be able to write a help viewer for us08:27
vendampt: on ms help there are several buttons that can be enabled/disabled on the ms help viewer08:27
vendamostly for navigation etc08:27
=== mpt realizes who venda is
mptvenda: (1) Will it have a search function?08:28
mptvenda: (2) Will it be faster to launch than yelp?08:28
vendaYes search will be embeded into our html08:28
mptvenda: I'm talking about the help viewer08:29
mpt(hence my comparison to yelp)08:29
mptnot about the HTML08:29
vendaI want any app capable of rendering html to be available for use08:29
vendaso how fast is dependant on what app is used08:30
vendahence Iwas interested in the monodoc we spoke about earlier08:30
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mptvenda: I'm responding to this: <venda> I started learning python last week, I hope to be able to write a help viewer for us08:30
vendaI will design it to be fast08:30
vendait is a major consideration08:31
jsgotangcoyou can extend it to wxpython or something similar08:31
mptvenda: So writing a new help viewer from scratch will be quicker than implementing search in yelp and making yelp fast?08:32
vendaI will post a spec and interface design, I would like it to be a community project08:32
vendampt: no08:32
vendabut yelp etc can still read HTML very well08:32
mptSo why not do the latter?08:32
vendathe idea of doing a new viewer is to be able to tailor faster08:33
mptTailor what to what faster?08:33
vendaIf we want our own this thingy or that08:33
vendaalso we can design new concepts08:33
mptThingy? Concepts?08:34
=== mpt is confussssed
vendayou said, Linux help sucks and so does windows, we can try some new ideas08:34
vendaperhaps you can help us with your toughts there08:34
mptWell I have in my head exactly what I'd like a help viewer should look like, and it's not very different from yelp08:34
vendanobody is happy with the tools available08:35
jsgotangcompt, you have a mockup or something?08:35
mptshould --> to08:35
vendaBut help must load lots of baggage08:35
mptjsgotangco: No, only in my head at the moment :-)08:35
vendayes, the diff is not large, but making your own you can do things that yelp team wont want to do08:35
vendampt can you sketch the interface08:36
vendaI have the following requirements:08:36
vendathat's it08:37
mptAnd you think the yelp team don't want any of those things? :-)08:37
vendathey carry to much baggage08:37
vendamany of things we would want, they dont want08:37
vendaand they would have to re-engineer yelp08:38
mptSuch as?08:38
vendafor example I do not plan reading anything except html help08:38
vendayelp loads stuff for many formats08:38
mptSo what about all those apps that currently have their help written in DocBook?08:39
vendahowever, I do plan enabling others to include modules for other formats08:39
mptAnd what about man pages?08:39
vendaDocbook transforms to HTML08:39
vendayelp tries to read it and tranform it to html08:39
mptYes, but who's going to do that for a third-party app?08:39
jsgotangcosimilar to what khelp does?08:39
vendathat is up to the community08:39
vendaI will take a kpart type of approach to it08:40
mptIf Ubuntu uses this VendaHelp and everyone else uses yelp, and some third-party app supplies its help in DocBook, where does the conversion happen?08:40
vendaAT present all GNOME stuff is in Yelp08:40
vendaI am focused on ubuntu-docs08:40
vendawe do not package xml in ubuntu08:41
vendawe package html08:41
mptIf some *third-party* app (i.e. not part of Gnome) supplies its help in DocBook, where does the conversion happen?08:41
vendabut uses can do apt-get install ubuntu-docs-src08:41
jsgotangco(i always thought we packaged in xml)08:41
vendajsgotangco: at present yes08:41
vendampt: they will transform to html when they build their apps08:42
vendaxml is not for presentation layer08:42
mptSo are there no third-party apps that currently provide their help in DocBook format?08:42
mptI thought yelp did the conversion on-the-fly08:43
vendapart of the reason help opens so slow is that it is trying to transformations from xml to html08:43
mptCould that be solved by making the home page HTML instead?08:43
vendaIn kde the help is html08:43
jsgotangcoyelp relies on scrollkeeper to catalog what xml is included08:43
vendait is only gnome that tries the fly approach08:43
mptjsgotangco: And I *wish* I could figure out how :-)08:43
vendampt: yes home page for ubuntu-docs is html easy to custom08:44
mptI'd like to edit the help, but no-one can tell me how to do it08:44
mptexcept saying "it's not easy"08:44
vendampt: exactly08:44
mptwhich I've been told several times already :-P08:44
vendaI want it more open and custom08:44
vendafor example the the formatting an dlayout in yelp is stunnted by yelp08:45
vendampt: with this system you can do what you like08:45
mptI think stunted formatting is good08:45
vendayou need freedom and control08:45
vendafor example08:46
mptNo, really, you don't08:46
vendaI would like to have a pick list of related topic and task on the right08:46
vendain yelp that is not possible08:46
mptEven in the Apple Help viewer when it only supported HTML 3.2, instead of using the standard help font, third-party apps often used whatever font the author of the app looked cool08:46
mptIt was a PITA08:46
vendain yelp I cant even change the color of headings08:46
mptThat's a feature08:47
vendawell we do our stuff using the same style08:47
vendawhat other do in up to them08:47
vendaour focus is smaller that other tools08:47
mptwhich is exactly the problem08:47
vendawe just want an easy to use faster tool for our stuff08:48
vendaothers can use it if they want08:48
vendabtw the help system should also be accessible on a web site08:49
vendanot the help viewer08:49
vendajust the content08:49
vendaI do not envision everyone using this viewer08:50
vendaand do not exclude the ability to use yelp or khelpcenter to view the ubuntu-docs08:50
vendathe content of the help system must be portable across apps08:51
vendathe idea is just to be able to improve what we can do for ubuntu08:51
vendathe same way gome and kde worry only about what they can do for their projects08:52
vendaif others want to use it, then they should be free to do so08:52
mptXHTML Basic with no style sheets would be a reasonable language for help08:53
vendampt: for you a major immediate plus is that you will be able to rapidly custom the home page and anything else08:53
vendayes and no08:53
vendahtml + css is more flexible08:54
vendafaster too08:54
vendabut technically you are right'08:54
mptvenda: This is where we disagree. I think that in help, flexibility is not a good thing.08:54
vendawell take yourself as an example08:55
vendayou are frustrated by yelp/scrollkeeper08:55
mptAll help pages, no whether they come from Gnome or KDE or Adobe, should use the same fonts, the same colors, the same margins, the same padding.08:55
vendain an ideal world08:55
mptAuthors shouldn't be able to muck around with the formatting.08:55
vendampt: start small08:56
mptBecause if they can, they will.08:56
vendain docbook they see no formatting08:56
vendathe xsl transformation takes care of that08:56
vendabut I want to stay topical for now08:56
vendaI dont want to change the world08:56
vendaShaum tried that and he had huge problems08:57
mptWho's Shaum?08:57
vendaSorry Shaun M from GNOME08:57
vendaIf all ubuntu-docs look the same and we have control over the look and feel, I am a happy camper08:58
jsgotangcohow about the other docs?08:58
jsgotangco(from scrollkeeper)08:58
vendaif others want to adopt it, they're welcome08:58
vendajsgotangco: use yelp08:58
mptvenda: So Ubuntu should have *two* help viewers?08:59
vendawe will still register with srollkeeper for compatability reasons08:59
vendagnome has one and so do we08:59
vendaat first08:59
mpt"gnome"? What's this "gnome"?</aunttillie>08:59
vendaas and when people create plugins other things can be done09:00
vendaother formats suppoerted09:00
vendalike man09:00
jsgotangco(i dont like the concept of 2 help viewers)09:00
vendabut I dont want to go there for now, just leave it open to possability09:00
jsgotangco(you support 2 apps as well)09:00
vendajsgotangco: your web browser is ff yes09:01
mptvenda: I'm not the world's expert on how jdub and mdz and co. think, but I find it difficult to imagine them putting multiple help viewers into Ubuntu when they have the choice not to.09:01
vendaplease click help09:01
vendampt there must be about six of them installed today09:02
vendajust look at the firefox help, opera help, OOo help09:02
mptvenda: Yes, but that's not through choice, that's through upstreams being silly.09:02
vendano upstreams not silly09:02
vendathey just want control not given by yelp09:02
mptAnd they don't have the choice09:02
vendathere is a tradeoff alwasy09:03
mptbecause they don't have the time to spend on putting the Firefox and OOo help into yelp.09:03
vendanot true09:03
vendathere help is xml09:03
vendaand they just need to install it09:04
vendayelp will do the rest09:04
vendaHmm, maybe we can just us ethe ff helpviewer09:04
=== mpt just opened the Firefox help viewer
mptit's crack09:04
vendait is more or less what I had inmind09:04
mptOpera isn't in main09:04
vendampt: crack = good :-)09:05
mptIt's a classic case of programmers overestimating how much people care about a particular window09:05
vendaso is it good or bad09:05
mptIt's far too large, and too complex, and oh yes, let's have a Customize Toolbar dialog! For a help viewer!09:05
mptBecause I want to spend time deciding which buttons should appear in a HELP WINDOW09:06
vendawe can dumb it down09:06
=== mpt is cranky today :-)
vendampt is there any winning with you?09:06
mptSure, add search to yelp and I'll be your fan for life ;-)09:07
vendabut you say yelp is too slow09:07
vendaso what do you want09:07
mptYes, but that's slightly less of a problem than it not having search09:07
vendaso why put so much focus on the slow issue earlier09:07
mptOr, MUCH easier, give me step-by-step instructions on how to change yelp's front page09:07
mptI wasn't focusing on the slow issue in particular, I just had to ask it a few times because you thought I was talking about something else09:09
vendatake your pic custom or no custom, fast or slow09:09
vendaeverything has some trade-off09:09
vendaok must go now. take care09:10
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=== mpt cries
mptThat was a boil-the-ocean strategy09:16
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mdkewhats all this crying?09:57
mptmdke: Oh, um, Sean wants to write a help viewer from scratch, to be used *alongside* yelp09:57
mdkewell get to it09:58
mdkempt, what do you favour?09:59
mdkeare there any minimal browsers that might work?09:59
mptAny help viewer would have to display help in the formats that it is currently supplied in09:59
mdkempt, you mean the gnome docs?10:00
mptwhich includes DocBook and man pages, neither of which Sean's would read10:00
mptI'm talking about all the help shipped with Ubuntu10:00
mdkei guess the problem is finding a solution for both ubuntu and kubuntu10:00
mdkegiven that kubuntu doesn't use yelp10:00
mptWhat I favour is decreasing the number of help viewers10:01
mptPreferably to the one help viewer that sucks the least10:01
jsgotangcosame here10:01
mdkeyes of course thats a good idea10:01
mdkeand what sucks the least?10:01
jsgotangcokubuntu uses khtml alredy10:01
mdkefor man pages too?10:01
mptthen getting Gimp to use it, then getting Firefox to use it, then getting OpenOffice to use it10:02
mpt(I'm assuminug that's in ascending order of difficulty)10:02
jsgotangcoscrollkeeper even10:02
jsgotangcobut its a mess10:02
mdkei love the idea of OOo10:02
mdkea 30 second startup for getting help ;)10:02
jsgotangcomonodoc is faster10:03
mdkewould it work for all docs, in kubuntu and ubuntu?10:03
mptI have no idea10:03
jsgotangcoi dont think it was designed as a general help viewer10:03
jsgotangcojust for mono at the moment10:03
mdkei guess it will be difficult to move away from yelp given that gnome uses it10:03
jsgotangcoyelp isnt so bad it just needs some love10:04
mdkebut the faqguide as sean has converted it is already unusable in yelp10:04
mdkeand that will probably be the most used doc for breezy if it goes in10:04
mptWho came up with the name "faq guide" anyway?10:05
mdkempt, no idea10:05
jsgotangcono idea10:05
mptYou know10:05
jsgotangcomust be the first authors10:05
jsgotangco(sean, enrico, et al)10:05
mptI should bind my hands today so I can't type10:05
mdkewe can change the name fairly easily, thats not the big deal10:05
mptcoz I'm cranky10:05
mdkempt, time of the month huh10:06
mptAnd when I'm cranky, BAD CRAP happens10:06
=== mdke pats
=== jsgotangco just had 3 bottles of green tea
mdkejsgotangco, you are so addicted to that stuff10:06
jsgotangcoyeah tea rules10:06
mdkejust inject the caffeine directly10:06
mdke(does green tea have caffeine?)10:06
jsgotangcohigher than coffee10:07
mdkein italian they call it teaine ;)10:07
mdkegiven that coffee is "caffe"10:07
mdkethey figured that caffeine comes from the word coffee10:07
jsgotangcowe even have tofu drinks here10:07
jsgotangcoits delicious10:08
jsgotangcotea + tofu = awesome10:08
jsgotangcoi dont blame you10:09
mdkethe good thing about using html for the docs would be that they could be published online/offline in the same way10:09
mdkeif you think about it, having ubuntu docs and then gnome/kde docs in a different help viewer isn't the end of the world10:09
mdkempt, i remember that you were saying that the books should be published as pdf10:09
jsgotangcougghh no one reads in pdf10:10
mdkei do10:10
mptfor print use10:10
mdkei use pdf for whatever I write10:10
jsgotangcofor print no problem10:10
mptbecause the books aren't suitable for on-screen reading10:10
mdkempt, so all the Ubuntu docs are books atm10:10
mptno matter *what* medium they're in10:10
jsgotangcoid consider them as books too10:10
mptWell observed :-)10:10
jsgotangco(the way they are formatted)10:10
mptand the way they're written10:10
mdkeexcept maybe the faqguide10:11
mdkewhich will shortly be renamed10:11
mptCurrently we have plenty of reference material, but none of what I'd categorize as onscreen help.10:11
mdkefor breezy we should also have some howtos from the wiki10:12
=== mdke chomps on toast
jsgotangcowell i gotta go10:16
jsgotangcoi have a diner to attend10:16
mdkethose vnc2swf videos are pretty cool10:16
mdkehave fun jsgotangco 10:16
jsgotangcoi just installed 2 ubuntu servrs today10:17
jsgotangcoman ubuntu as a server is awesome10:17
mdkethats cool10:17
mdkei will try breezy this weekend10:17
jsgotangcoid rather not yet when x is borked10:17
mdkejsgotangco, did you see LaptopTestingTeam btw?10:17
jsgotangconot yet10:17
mdkei think its fixed now10:17
jsgotangcowhat's that about10:17
mdkejsgotangco, check it out10:18
mdkefree laptops for testing breezy10:18
jsgotangcoyeah i know that10:18
jsgotangcowe discussed that in UDU10:18
mdkewell put your name down10:18
jsgotangcosabdfl was willing to invest10:19
mdkethat guy is a genius10:19
mdkeits a brilliant idea10:19
mdkeubuntu is gonna rock laptops10:19
jsgotangcothat list is already long10:19
mdkelots of people on the list haven't done any work10:19
mdkeyou have10:19
jsgotangcoi know10:19
jsgotangcoif you check the udu laptop wiki me and ogra are listed10:20
mdkewell there ya go10:20
mdkeget your name down10:20
jsgotangcoill put mine beside you hehe (cheater)10:20
mdkea guy in #ubuntu-it said breezy was real fast10:21
mdkethats why i'm gonna try it10:21
mdkethat, and the fact that I have time on my hands10:21
mdkemy course finishes friday10:21
jsgotangcohmm wonder why dholbach didnt list himself10:21
jsgotangcoor even ajmitch10:21
mdkeguess they have flair laptops already10:22
jsgotangconahhh you should see ajmitch's laptop10:22
jsgotangcoor worse, even mako's10:22
mdkeno way?10:22
mdkehe has a p1 166 mmx?10:22
jsgotangcowell a P210:22
mdkemy gf has one of those10:22
jsgotangcoi still have a p3 laptop10:23
jsgotangcowell i gotta go my wife is gonna kill me if im late10:23
mdkeok have fun10:23
jsgotangcolisted myself already10:23
mdkedholbach is third on the list btw10:24
jsgotangcomjg59 is doing swell work on laptops10:24
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vendaBurgundavia: bounties for docs that's a first :-)08:26
vendaBurgundavia: I wonder if they will accept my Lenya solution?08:29
Burgundaviathey might08:31
vendaHmmm, I wonder ...08:34
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abelliKinnison: ding dong dang08:43
Kinnisonabelli: hi09:03
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Burgundaviavenda, someone has posting something to the gnome list as well09:18
vendayes, dorvak or something like that09:18
mkdevenda, any reply on the ubuntuguide?09:19
abellivenda, domo arigato.09:20
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_vendaouch that hurt09:22
abelli_venda: re-"domo arigato".09:22
_vendahello abelli09:23
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mkdevenda, any reply on the ubuntuguide?09:23
vendamdke: no09:24
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vendagotta love wget09:26
vendadownload a whole web site in minutes09:26
carthikvenda, and mp3s, in some cases :)09:27
carthikI love netjuke users, who allow downloads, but I am evil.09:27
=== venda does not download music, but undrstands
venda590 files in 2.07 secs09:31
vendagood night ppl09:56
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abelliciao a tutti10:04
abellibuona notte10:04
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mdkeKinnison, is your dad called norman?11:48
mdkehe posted to the ubuntu-uk list this evening11:48
mdkei need to convert my parents11:48

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