=== carthik [~carthik@user-0cej7av.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === nufan [~nufan@cpc2-hem14-4-0-cust73.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:12] Anyone active? [01:12] nufan, just ask :) [01:12] I may know the answer, though highly unlikely [01:12] It's to do with helpng out with LaptopTestingHardware on the wiki [01:13] nufan, it might be a good idea to ask the entire question in one go :) [01:14] I have an iBook and would like to help out, butu I'm not sure if I am 'allowed' to edit the wiki page [01:14] nufan, you are [01:15] OK [01:15] That's good :P [01:15] Thank you === nufan [~nufan@cpc2-hem14-4-0-cust73.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [01:19] *laughs* [01:19] have cut a few things off the FrontPage [01:19] put them in second level pages === mkde [~matt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:24] http://nat.org/demos/monodoc.html [02:24] how cool is that === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:45] carthik! Fancy seeing you here === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:52] hey Burgundavia [06:52] salut [07:09] hi Burgundavia [07:10] salut mpt === venda [~sean@ndn-165-138-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:43] African Greetings [07:43] salut venda [07:45] hello [07:45] hello chaps [07:47] anyone got time to test that mono help viewer matthew spoke about [07:49] yeah [07:49] we and Burgundavia talked about it before [07:49] its an api doc app [07:49] (not sure if its extensible at the moment( [07:56] hmm, if the src is there and its mono, then it must be [07:56] that beagle thing is cool [07:56] I wonder if it can be embeded === venda thinks to use it as a search function within help view environment [07:58] Burgundavia: you've played with it, what do you think? [07:58] another doc viewer [07:58] nothing special, to be honest [07:59] is it lighter than a browser and yelp/khelpcenter [07:59] hmm, didn't really check [07:59] might be [07:59] but it also probably does less [07:59] yes, tradeoff [08:00] but if it is faster, then then our help app can do the main functions [08:01] well just an idea [08:03] its quite fast compared to yelp [08:19] guys I am thinking to use the MS HTML Format for help, just not to compile it into CHM [08:19] see here for information http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/HtmlHelp.html#HHTOCs [08:19] Instead of compiling it, we will use a frameset [08:20] this will give us all the features of MS help, with the ability to run on the web or under any browser [08:20] of ocurse we will not have to encode the docs for windows, we remain at UTF-8 [08:21] thoughts? [08:23] hmm, I have no idea, so I will not comment either way [08:23] it would be easier for sure though [08:23] yes, it is also close to what many of the windows users who try ubuntu are accustomed to [08:24] remember what mpt was saying [08:24] I think the compromise is to use the technical structure, but remain flexible to customization [08:25] but we will not be supporting features like the ms help buttons [08:25] those are up to the individual help viewer [08:26] if for example somebody develops a help viewer they can always enable the help buttons in their app [08:26] What's an "ms help button"? [08:27] I started learning python last week, I hope to be able to write a help viewer for us [08:27] mpt: on ms help there are several buttons that can be enabled/disabled on the ms help viewer [08:27] mostly for navigation etc === mpt realizes who venda is [08:28] Hide/Show htmlhelp.button.hideshow [08:28] Back htmlhelp.button.back [08:28] Forward htmlhelp.button.forward [08:28] venda: (1) Will it have a search function? [08:28] Stop htmlhelp.button.stop [08:28] Refresh htmlhelp.button.refresh [08:28] venda: (2) Will it be faster to launch than yelp? [08:28] Home htmlhelp.button.home [08:28] Options htmlhelp.button.options [08:28] Print htmlhelp.button.print [08:28] Locate htmlhelp.button.locate [08:28] Next htmlhelp.button.next [08:28] Previous htmlhelp.button.previous [08:28] Zoom htmlhelp.button.zoom [08:28] Yes search will be embeded into our html [08:29] venda: I'm talking about the help viewer [08:29] (hence my comparison to yelp) [08:29] not about the HTML [08:29] I want any app capable of rendering html to be available for use [08:30] so how fast is dependant on what app is used [08:30] hence Iwas interested in the monodoc we spoke about earlier === robitaille [~robitaill@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:30] venda: I'm responding to this: I started learning python last week, I hope to be able to write a help viewer for us [08:30] Oh [08:30] I will design it to be fast [08:31] it is a major consideration [08:31] you can extend it to wxpython or something similar [08:32] venda: So writing a new help viewer from scratch will be quicker than implementing search in yelp and making yelp fast? [08:32] I will post a spec and interface design, I would like it to be a community project [08:32] mpt: no [08:32] but yelp etc can still read HTML very well [08:32] So why not do the latter? [08:33] the idea of doing a new viewer is to be able to tailor faster [08:33] Tailor what to what faster? [08:33] If we want our own this thingy or that [08:33] also we can design new concepts [08:34] Thingy? Concepts? === mpt is confussssed [08:34] you said, Linux help sucks and so does windows, we can try some new ideas [08:34] perhaps you can help us with your toughts there [08:34] Well I have in my head exactly what I'd like a help viewer should look like, and it's not very different from yelp [08:35] nobody is happy with the tools available [08:35] mpt, you have a mockup or something? [08:35] should --> to [08:35] But help must load lots of baggage [08:35] jsgotangco: No, only in my head at the moment :-) [08:35] yes, the diff is not large, but making your own you can do things that yelp team wont want to do [08:36] mpt can you sketch the interface [08:36] I have the following requirements: [08:37] faster [08:37] simpler [08:37] better [08:37] that's it [08:37] And you think the yelp team don't want any of those things? :-) [08:37] they carry to much baggage [08:37] heh [08:37] many of things we would want, they dont want [08:38] and they would have to re-engineer yelp [08:38] Such as? [08:38] for example I do not plan reading anything except html help [08:38] yelp loads stuff for many formats [08:39] So what about all those apps that currently have their help written in DocBook? [08:39] however, I do plan enabling others to include modules for other formats [08:39] And what about man pages? [08:39] Docbook transforms to HTML [08:39] yelp tries to read it and tranform it to html [08:39] Yes, but who's going to do that for a third-party app? [08:39] similar to what khelp does? [08:39] that is up to the community [08:40] I will take a kpart type of approach to it [08:40] If Ubuntu uses this VendaHelp and everyone else uses yelp, and some third-party app supplies its help in DocBook, where does the conversion happen? [08:40] AT present all GNOME stuff is in Yelp [08:40] I am focused on ubuntu-docs [08:41] we do not package xml in ubuntu [08:41] we package html [08:41] If some *third-party* app (i.e. not part of Gnome) supplies its help in DocBook, where does the conversion happen? [08:41] but uses can do apt-get install ubuntu-docs-src [08:41] (i always thought we packaged in xml) [08:41] jsgotangco: at present yes [08:42] mpt: they will transform to html when they build their apps [08:42] xml is not for presentation layer [08:42] So are there no third-party apps that currently provide their help in DocBook format? [08:43] I thought yelp did the conversion on-the-fly [08:43] part of the reason help opens so slow is that it is trying to transformations from xml to html [08:43] Could that be solved by making the home page HTML instead? [08:43] In kde the help is html [08:43] yelp relies on scrollkeeper to catalog what xml is included [08:43] it is only gnome that tries the fly approach [08:43] jsgotangco: And I *wish* I could figure out how :-) [08:44] mpt: yes home page for ubuntu-docs is html easy to custom [08:44] I'd like to edit the help, but no-one can tell me how to do it [08:44] except saying "it's not easy" [08:44] mpt: exactly [08:44] which I've been told several times already :-P [08:44] I want it more open and custom [08:45] for example the the formatting an dlayout in yelp is stunnted by yelp [08:45] mpt: with this system you can do what you like [08:45] I think stunted formatting is good [08:45] nah [08:45] you need freedom and control [08:46] for example [08:46] No, really, you don't [08:46] I would like to have a pick list of related topic and task on the right [08:46] in yelp that is not possible [08:46] Even in the Apple Help viewer when it only supported HTML 3.2, instead of using the standard help font, third-party apps often used whatever font the author of the app looked cool [08:46] It was a PITA [08:46] in yelp I cant even change the color of headings [08:47] That's a feature [08:47] well we do our stuff using the same style [08:47] what other do in up to them [08:47] our focus is smaller that other tools [08:47] which is exactly the problem [08:48] we just want an easy to use faster tool for our stuff [08:48] others can use it if they want [08:49] btw the help system should also be accessible on a web site [08:49] not the help viewer [08:49] just the content [08:50] I do not envision everyone using this viewer [08:50] and do not exclude the ability to use yelp or khelpcenter to view the ubuntu-docs [08:51] the content of the help system must be portable across apps [08:51] the idea is just to be able to improve what we can do for ubuntu [08:52] the same way gome and kde worry only about what they can do for their projects [08:52] if others want to use it, then they should be free to do so [08:53] XHTML Basic with no style sheets would be a reasonable language for help [08:53] mpt: for you a major immediate plus is that you will be able to rapidly custom the home page and anything else [08:53] yes and no [08:54] html + css is more flexible [08:54] faster too [08:54] but technically you are right' [08:54] venda: This is where we disagree. I think that in help, flexibility is not a good thing. [08:55] well take yourself as an example [08:55] you are frustrated by yelp/scrollkeeper [08:55] All help pages, no whether they come from Gnome or KDE or Adobe, should use the same fonts, the same colors, the same margins, the same padding. [08:55] in an ideal world [08:55] Authors shouldn't be able to muck around with the formatting. [08:55] yes [08:56] mpt: start small [08:56] Because if they can, they will. [08:56] in docbook they see no formatting [08:56] the xsl transformation takes care of that [08:56] good [08:56] but I want to stay topical for now [08:56] I dont want to change the world [08:57] Shaum tried that and he had huge problems [08:57] Who's Shaum? [08:57] Sorry Shaun M from GNOME [08:57] shaun [08:58] If all ubuntu-docs look the same and we have control over the look and feel, I am a happy camper [08:58] how about the other docs? [08:58] (from scrollkeeper) [08:58] if others want to adopt it, they're welcome [08:58] jsgotangco: use yelp [08:58] er [08:59] venda: So Ubuntu should have *two* help viewers? [08:59] we will still register with srollkeeper for compatability reasons [08:59] gnome has one and so do we [08:59] at first [08:59] "gnome"? What's this "gnome"? [09:00] as and when people create plugins other things can be done [09:00] other formats suppoerted [09:00] like man [09:00] (i dont like the concept of 2 help viewers) [09:00] but I dont want to go there for now, just leave it open to possability [09:00] Well [09:00] (you support 2 apps as well) [09:01] jsgotangco: your web browser is ff yes [09:01] venda: I'm not the world's expert on how jdub and mdz and co. think, but I find it difficult to imagine them putting multiple help viewers into Ubuntu when they have the choice not to. [09:01] please click help [09:02] mpt there must be about six of them installed today [09:02] just look at the firefox help, opera help, OOo help [09:02] venda: Yes, but that's not through choice, that's through upstreams being silly. [09:02] etc [09:02] no upstreams not silly [09:02] they just want control not given by yelp [09:02] And they don't have the choice [09:03] there is a tradeoff alwasy [09:03] because they don't have the time to spend on putting the Firefox and OOo help into yelp. [09:03] not true [09:03] there help is xml [09:04] and they just need to install it [09:04] yelp will do the rest [09:04] Hmm, maybe we can just us ethe ff helpviewer === mpt just opened the Firefox help viewer [09:04] it's crack [09:04] it is more or less what I had inmind [09:04] Opera isn't in main [09:05] mpt: crack = good :-) [09:05] It's a classic case of programmers overestimating how much people care about a particular window [09:05] so is it good or bad [09:05] It's far too large, and too complex, and oh yes, let's have a Customize Toolbar dialog! For a help viewer! [09:06] Because I want to spend time deciding which buttons should appear in a HELP WINDOW [09:06] we can dumb it down === mpt is cranky today :-) [09:06] mpt is there any winning with you? [09:07] Sure, add search to yelp and I'll be your fan for life ;-) [09:07] but you say yelp is too slow [09:07] so what do you want [09:07] Yes, but that's slightly less of a problem than it not having search [09:07] so why put so much focus on the slow issue earlier [09:07] Or, MUCH easier, give me step-by-step instructions on how to change yelp's front page [09:08] can't [09:09] I wasn't focusing on the slow issue in particular, I just had to ask it a few times because you thought I was talking about something else [09:09] take your pic custom or no custom, fast or slow [09:09] everything has some trade-off [09:09] sure [09:10] ok must go now. take care === venda [~sean@ndn-165-138-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] === mpt cries [09:15] gyahh [09:16] That was a boil-the-ocean strategy === Seveas [~seveas@dhg-tradeict.ne.qinip.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:55] morning [09:57] whats all this crying? [09:57] mdke: Oh, um, Sean wants to write a help viewer from scratch, to be used *alongside* yelp [09:58] well get to it [09:58] :p [09:59] mpt, what do you favour? [09:59] are there any minimal browsers that might work? [09:59] Any help viewer would have to display help in the formats that it is currently supplied in [10:00] mpt, you mean the gnome docs? [10:00] which includes DocBook and man pages, neither of which Sean's would read [10:00] right [10:00] I'm talking about all the help shipped with Ubuntu [10:00] i guess the problem is finding a solution for both ubuntu and kubuntu [10:00] given that kubuntu doesn't use yelp [10:01] What I favour is decreasing the number of help viewers [10:01] Preferably to the one help viewer that sucks the least [10:01] same here [10:01] yes of course thats a good idea [10:01] and what sucks the least? [10:01] kubuntu uses khtml alredy [10:01] for man pages too? [10:02] then getting Gimp to use it, then getting Firefox to use it, then getting OpenOffice to use it [10:02] yep [10:02] (I'm assuminug that's in ascending order of difficulty) [10:02] scrollkeeper even [10:02] but its a mess [10:02] i love the idea of OOo [10:02] a 30 second startup for getting help ;) [10:03] monodoc is faster [10:03] would it work for all docs, in kubuntu and ubuntu? [10:03] I have no idea [10:03] i dont think it was designed as a general help viewer [10:03] just for mono at the moment [10:03] i guess it will be difficult to move away from yelp given that gnome uses it [10:04] yelp isnt so bad it just needs some love [10:04] heh [10:04] but the faqguide as sean has converted it is already unusable in yelp [10:04] and that will probably be the most used doc for breezy if it goes in [10:05] woohoo [10:05] quite [10:05] Who came up with the name "faq guide" anyway? [10:05] mpt, no idea [10:05] no idea [10:05] You know [10:05] must be the first authors [10:05] (sean, enrico, et al) [10:05] I should bind my hands today so I can't type [10:05] we can change the name fairly easily, thats not the big deal [10:05] coz I'm cranky [10:06] mpt, time of the month huh [10:06] And when I'm cranky, BAD CRAP happens === mdke pats [10:06] moo === jsgotangco just had 3 bottles of green tea [10:06] jsgotangco, you are so addicted to that stuff [10:06] yeah tea rules [10:06] just inject the caffeine directly [10:06] (does green tea have caffeine?) [10:07] LOADS [10:07] higher than coffee [10:07] in italian they call it teaine ;) [10:07] given that coffee is "caffe" [10:07] they figured that caffeine comes from the word coffee [10:07] we even have tofu drinks here [10:07] ugh [10:08] its delicious [10:08] tea + tofu = awesome [10:08] ugh [10:09] i dont blame you [10:09] the good thing about using html for the docs would be that they could be published online/offline in the same way [10:09] if you think about it, having ubuntu docs and then gnome/kde docs in a different help viewer isn't the end of the world [10:09] mpt, i remember that you were saying that the books should be published as pdf [10:09] yup [10:10] ugghh no one reads in pdf [10:10] i do [10:10] for print use [10:10] i use pdf for whatever I write [10:10] for print no problem [10:10] because the books aren't suitable for on-screen reading [10:10] mpt, so all the Ubuntu docs are books atm [10:10] no matter *what* medium they're in [10:10] Yes [10:10] id consider them as books too [10:10] Well observed :-) [10:10] (the way they are formatted) [10:10] and the way they're written [10:11] sure [10:11] except maybe the faqguide [10:11] which will shortly be renamed [10:11] ;) [10:11] Currently we have plenty of reference material, but none of what I'd categorize as onscreen help. [10:12] for breezy we should also have some howtos from the wiki === mdke chomps on toast [10:16] well i gotta go [10:16] i have a diner to attend [10:16] laterz [10:16] those vnc2swf videos are pretty cool [10:16] have fun jsgotangco [10:17] i just installed 2 ubuntu servrs today [10:17] man ubuntu as a server is awesome [10:17] thats cool [10:17] i will try breezy this weekend [10:17] id rather not yet when x is borked [10:17] jsgotangco, did you see LaptopTestingTeam btw? [10:17] not yet [10:17] i think its fixed now [10:17] what's that about [10:18] jsgotangco, check it out [10:18] wiki? [10:18] yes [10:18] free laptops for testing breezy [10:18] yeah i know that [10:18] we discussed that in UDU [10:18] well put your name down [10:19] sabdfl was willing to invest [10:19] that guy is a genius [10:19] its a brilliant idea [10:19] ubuntu is gonna rock laptops [10:19] hmmm [10:19] that list is already long [10:19] hehe [10:19] lots of people on the list haven't done any work [10:19] you have [10:19] i know [10:20] if you check the udu laptop wiki me and ogra are listed [10:20] heh [10:20] well there ya go [10:20] get your name down [10:20] ill put mine beside you hehe (cheater) [10:20] k [10:21] a guy in #ubuntu-it said breezy was real fast [10:21] thats why i'm gonna try it [10:21] that, and the fact that I have time on my hands [10:21] my course finishes friday [10:21] hmm wonder why dholbach didnt list himself [10:21] or even ajmitch [10:22] guess they have flair laptops already [10:22]