/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/06/08/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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JaneWok time for bed12:13
JaneWnight all <- this time it is ME saying good night12:13
ogranight JaneW 12:14
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terrexwhen the meeting will start?01:06
Mithrandirthere's a kernel meeting at 1600UTC and a backports meeting at 1930UTC today.01:07
terrexthx01:08
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Nafallothanx fabbione 05:52
fabbionehttp://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2005-May/000527.html05:52
fabbionethis is the agenda for today :)05:52
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KamionI'll be around sort of if you need me for installer stuff, but you'll need to get my attention by saying my nick05:53
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fabbioneKamion: ok thanks :)05:55
zulblah05:55
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toresbethat's not me, btw :P05:55
tore_toresbe: =] 05:55
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zuli just won a poker tournament yeah!05:57
zulanyways05:57
fabbionejust to refresh your mind:05:57
fabbionehttp://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2005-May/000527.html05:57
fabbione^^agenda05:57
fabbionehttp://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxKernelRoadmap05:57
fabbioneand roadmap05:57
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zulless than a hour? that is goign to be a record05:58
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fabbionewell i hope it can be less than one hour :)05:58
zulit will05:58
ograguys, we need this room at 19:00 UTC again for backporting things.... so speed up ;)05:59
fabbioneogra: i read it was at 19:30 but ok :)06:00
fabbioneok it's 16:00 UTC now06:00
Lathiatwhat time is it now?06:00
fabbionelet's start06:00
Nafalloogra: thanx. I just wondered when it was ;-)06:00
fabbionewelcome everybody06:00
ograerr, yes... but we need to clean up your mess before ;)06:00
fabbionetoday we will review the status of the spec implementation06:00
zulshhhush 06:00
fabbioneand we will assign the last few remaining tasks to people06:00
fabbionemost of the stuff has been happily done06:01
fabbioneas a side note, the release for 2.6.12 final seems to be delayed upstream06:01
infinityNot delayed long enough to be an issue, though.06:01
zulsurprise surprise06:01
fabbioneso the first 4 points might slow down a bit06:01
jbaileyWhat's the spec clalled so we all have the same one up?06:01
fabbionehttp://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxKernelRoadmap06:01
jbaileytx06:02
fabbioneso let's go point by point06:02
fabbioneinfinity: right06:02
fabbionewe are already building 2.6.12rcX with gcc-3.4 and so far we have received no complains about regressions06:02
fabbioneand that's good06:02
fabbionegcc-4.0 is still known to miscompile the kernel06:02
fabbionepoint 2 is dependent on upstream06:03
fabbionesame goes for 3 and 406:03
fabbionework that can be done in parallel:06:03
infinityDo e have any idea where gcc-4.0 is miscompiling the kernel?06:03
LathiatIs it likely to get that fixed before shipping ?06:03
fabbioneinfinity: afaik there are bugs open upstream with specific details06:03
fabbioneLathiat: we don't know06:03
LathiatBecause that raises issues compiling out of tree drivers, etc06:04
fabbionethat depends a lot06:04
fabbioneLathiat: external drivers will have to be compiled with the proper gcc. if they use the kbuild system they will be fine06:04
infinityLathiat : Out of tree modules should be able to set kgcc to something sane.06:04
fabbioneotherwise they are on their own06:04
fabbionethe problems with gcc-4.0 are:06:04
zulLathiat: most of the external drivers that we use have been switched to kbuild06:04
fabbione1) gcc-4.0 doesn't compile the kernel06:04
Lathiathrm vmware musnt use kbuild ?06:05
fabbione2) some kernel code is not gcc-4.0 compliant06:05
zulwe dont use vmware :)06:05
Lathiatanyway06:05
fabbioneanyway06:05
fabbionechmj: can you plese give us a status update on thirdy part drivers tracking tool?06:05
chmjits finished 06:05
fabbionechmj: ok.. we need to get the code :)06:05
chmjjust need to document it and then you can test it 06:06
fabbionechmj: ok06:06
fabbionegreat06:06
fabbioneHIGHMEM on 386 has been enabled, but i gues we will see the first reports only after we will make 2.6.12 the default06:06
fabbionedid anybody in here tested it?06:06
chmjwhat can we do about the gcc-4.0 kernel problem though ?06:06
infinityI've used it on my own machines without issues, but I haven't tested your current images.06:06
fabbionechmj: not much right now06:07
dilingerchmj: test it and submit fixes upstream?06:07
fabbioneinfinity: ok06:07
fabbionethe next 3 points are benchmarking related06:07
fabbioneand we didn't start on them yet06:07
fabbionei don't have enough resources to even start it06:08
infinityDoes anyone have any sane benchmark suites?06:08
fabbionewho would like to take the tasks?06:08
zulbonnie++ is one06:08
infinityI will happily test SMP vs UP vs optimised vs generic on my amd64 til the cows come home, if I have some benchmarks to run.06:08
zuli dont have the gear for smp06:08
chmjI don't have the resources 06:08
dilingerwhoever does take on the task should make the process public, so other people can reproduce the benchmark results06:08
fabbionewho could test ppc?06:09
fabbioneinfinity: i assume you can test i386 on amd6406:09
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infinityMore importantly, though, what do we consider an acceptable performance loss to switch to generic-SMP on all installations?06:09
jbaileychmj: PRobably at a minimum, find the bugs in gcc's bugzilla and list them on the page.  Then they can be tracked.06:09
infinity5%? 10%?06:09
jbaileyfabbione: I can test ppc g4/g5.06:09
toresbeI can test m68k! oh wait... :P06:09
fabbioneinfinity: between 5 and 10% is ok with me06:09
infinityfabbione : I can test an i386 and amd64 root, but obviously the kernel will always be amd64.06:09
chmjjbailey: ok 06:09
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fabbionenote that Herbert Xu reported that the worst bottle neck is networking related06:10
fabbioneusing SMP kernels on UP machines06:10
infinityIn what sense?... When the network is saturated?06:10
fabbionewith very high load on the cpu and very high load on the network card (~1Gb)06:10
infinityI could see locking issues coming into play only when you're saturating I/O.06:10
dilingerprobably related to softirq locking, would be my guess06:10
infinityYeah.  Do we even care about such a use case?06:10
fabbioneinfinity: that's what he was talking about06:10
fabbioneinfinity: for server, we do06:11
infinityPeople who need to push that kind of bandwidth will almost never use default kernels.06:11
fabbioneinfinity: unfortunatly we cannot assume06:11
infinity(And people who push that kind of bandwidth also often have SMP machines, so the point becomes moots)06:11
infinitys/moots/moot/06:11
fabbionebut i agree06:11
fabbioneso does everybody agree in a possible loss of perf between 5 and 10%?06:12
fabbioneor should we put it down?06:12
fabbionebetween 3 and 7?06:12
toresbethat's quite a lot, isn't it?06:12
infinityI could go as high at 10, but I'd be happier with 5.06:12
dilinger%5 is fine06:12
zulwell if its too high then users are going to complain06:12
infinityI think we should shoot for 5 as a baseline.06:12
chmj5% is fine 06:12
toresbeI mean, if people are using SMP machines, which atm is quite rare...06:12
fabbioneok let's average...06:12
infinityAnd see how bad our results are. :)06:12
fabbioneno more than 6% :)06:12
fabbioneclearly the lower the better :)06:13
fabbioneso we have jbailey on ppc and infinity for i386/amd64.06:13
chmjno more than 6 is acceptable06:13
infinitySomeone needs to be tasked with coming up with some comprehensive benchmarks.06:13
fabbioneinfinity, jbailey: i would like you 2 to update the wiki with an ETA for test results06:13
jbaileyfabbione: ppc newworld g4/g5 only, though.  If you want oldworld support or g3 support, I don't have the equipment.06:13
toresbewhat sort of thing should one test?06:14
fabbionejbailey: one ppc serie is acceptable06:14
jbaileyfabbione: Standard linux test suite is fine?06:14
toresbeforks? malloc? memcpy...?06:14
infinityIf it's going to involve network I/O and CPU, something like ab running against boa might work, over a crossover GigE.06:14
fabbionetoresbe: the more the best06:14
fabbionetoresbe: do you want to take care to find a benchmarking tool?06:14
fabbionezul: ?06:15
jbaileyinfinity: Something we should put together for FormalTestPlans?06:15
fabbionethat needs to be done by yesterday06:15
zulfabbione: i would suggest bonnie or ltp06:15
infinityjbailey : FormalTestPlans seems to be all-encompassing, doesn't it?06:15
toresbefabbione: I, uhm, I could try...06:15
jbaileyinfinity: I did mention that.06:15
zulhttp://ltp.sourceforge.net/06:15
fabbionetoresbe: you don't need to write it.. just find one out there06:15
toresbeyeah06:15
jbaileyI wonder how much elmo would hurt us if the kernel build fired up Xen and started an ltp pass?06:15
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fabbioneanyway.. add what you find at the end of the wiki06:15
infinityjbailey : I would hurt you.06:16
toresbefabbione: me?06:16
fabbionetoresbe: you and zul06:16
fabbioneok next item06:16
toresbeokies06:16
zulokies then06:16
toresbeltp seems fairly spot-on, though06:16
fabbioneare we aware of any way to detect SMP machines booting a UP kernel?06:16
jbaileyfabbione: Depends on the arch, iirc.06:17
fabbionethis is needed if enabling SMP kernels on UP machines is too expensive06:17
infinityNot reliably, IIRC.06:17
infinityWhy is it needed?06:17
infinityCan the installer not run an SMP kernel unconditionally, and drop to installing a UP kernel if the system is UP.06:17
zulso we dont have a zillion configs for builidng the kernel06:17
infinity(much easier to detect UP from SMP than the other way around)06:17
fabbioneinfinity: because if installing a SMP kernel on UP machine is too expensive performance wise, we can ask d-i to install the proper kernel06:18
infinityfabbione : Yes, but d-i can run an SMP kernel.06:18
fabbioneinfinity: while i agree, it is somehow known that SMP kernels don't always boot UP hardware06:18
toresbeyeah, I've noticed that.06:18
infinityfabbione : It's much easier to detect a single CPU on an SMP kernel than the other way around.06:18
toresbebut it's quite rare.06:19
infinityfabbione : Is this still a concern, or are we operating on 5 year old assumptions?06:19
fabbioneinfinity: we can't risk breezy not even being installable because of an SMP kernel on the wrong UP hardware06:19
fabbioneinfinity: it's true on sparc at least... and that's now06:19
infinityRight, but Sparc isn't a release arch. ;)06:19
jbaileyNor is hppa (the other arch I know of that can reliably detect offline CPUs)06:20
fabbioneinfinity: yes but it's the same code that runs on other arches.. you know06:20
infinityfabbione : Not really, no.06:20
fabbionedamn you got me :)06:20
infinityfabbione : The bits that just plain won't boot are drastically different between arches.06:20
fabbionei was trying to be vague ;)06:20
infinityCPU setup is very arch-dependent, obviously.06:20
infinityAnd I'd be very surprised if the SMP-on-UP problem still exists on our 3 release arches.06:21
fabbioneinfinity: there are other problems too06:21
fabbionenot all drivers are compiled for SMP kernels, because they are not SMP friendly06:21
infinityWell, fair enough.  We can examing the CPU detection thing and see where it takes us.06:21
fabbioneor they compile and don't work06:22
fabbioneso we might kill the installation just a bit further06:22
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infinityBut if we're looking at SMP default kernels anyway (assuming the performance hit isn't teh suck), we need to tackle any other problems SMP may bring us, like crap drivers.06:22
infinityOtherwise, it's a pipe dream, and we can scrap the benchmarking.06:22
fabbioneinfinity: yes, but this doesn't assume we need to kill d-i for it :)06:22
fabbioneat least not in the beginning06:23
fabbionebut yes...06:23
toresbeok06:23
toresbehow about in the installer, it asks if you want to use more than one processor?06:23
fabbionenext point06:23
fabbionetoresbe: and what would that solve?06:23
infinitytoresbe : Questions in d-i will get Kamion and mdz smacking you.06:23
infinityCertainly not ones like that.06:23
fabbioneeven a boot option is not an option :)06:24
fabbionegiven that the code is still compiled in the kernel06:24
toresbethe installer could use a UP kernel, and could also very reliably detect it ;)06:24
infinityAnyhow, put me down for CPU number detection on amd64 and i386.  Can't do PPC until my Mac flies in here in a month.06:24
fabbioneinfinity: ok. i am not writing down who is going to do what ...06:24
fabbionei expect you guys to remember :)06:24
infinityfabbione : You're the lead, you should. :)06:24
fabbioneinfinity: i can remember without writing :)06:25
fabbioneso you are still doomed ;)06:25
infinityjbailey : Unless you want to play secretary.06:25
fabbionenext 2 steps are pretty related to each other06:25
infinityYeah, but I suck at reembering things.  It's nice to go back to the spec and remember who to bug about what (or what I said I'd do and didn't)06:25
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fabbionewe should have done this a long long time ago06:25
fabbioneinfinity: you can just add yourself to it ;)06:26
fabbioneanyway06:26
fabbionelet's keep going06:26
infinityCarry on.06:26
fabbione generate non-supported-linux-kernel-modules.06:26
jbaileyinfinity: For this meeting?  I guess I could, but since it's already written in text form, I'd rather not.06:26
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fabbionenow we have a problem06:26
infinityjbailey : Alright, I'll grab the log later. :)06:26
fabbionewe include a lot of external drivers that are just a pile of junk code06:26
fabbionebut users want it06:27
fabbioneand we all know the drill06:27
fabbioneso the idea was to create the above package06:27
fabbionethat will contain all the modules that:06:27
fabbione1) are not part of upstream kernel06:27
fabbione2) we don't support directly06:27
fabbione3) they are not required for installation (like webcam drivers)06:27
infinity3) can compile cleanly out-of-tree?06:27
fabbione4) as infinity 3)06:28
fabbione5) we will drop as soon as they stop compiling06:28
fabbionefor whatever reason06:28
zulor no longer supported upstream06:28
fabbionezul: right06:28
infinityIs this actually a long list?06:28
fabbionenow.. we still want this package coming from the main kernel06:29
chmjI'm also wonderign how long it is 06:29
fabbioneinfinity: quite06:29
fabbioneand we still want it shipped with the CD06:29
zulinfinity: read the external-drivers file in the debian dir06:29
fabbionebut clearly we don't want to support it06:29
fabbionehence the fancy name06:29
fabbionewho would like to take this task?06:30
fabbionethe task is to prepare a list of such drivers06:30
fabbionefor all the arches06:30
fabbioneby flavour06:30
zuli guess i can i have the experience with the drivers06:30
fabbioneit needs to be detailed06:30
fabbionezul: ok.. it's your06:30
zulor maybe a couple of people can help06:30
chmjzul: I can help 06:30
fabbionezul: we will work on it together06:30
zulok good06:30
fabbionesince we need some changes to the build system too06:31
fabbionechmj: welcome to help :)06:31
fabbionechmj: would you like to help zul with the list and start to strech your wings on the build system?06:31
chmjyes 06:31
fabbioneperfect06:31
fabbionenext point06:31
fabbione create policy for 3rd party driver inclusion policy.06:31
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chmjmaybe we can also enhance the watch program 06:31
fabbionethis is mainly documentation/wiki stuff06:32
fabbioneto reflect what are the criteria of 3rd party drivers06:32
jbaileychmj: I'd like to work with you a bit on build system stuff to see if cdbs2 can be bent to do what you want simply.06:32
fabbionemainly is what we wrote above already06:32
chmjjbailey: ok 06:33
fabbioneand 3rd party patches must not touch any kernel core functionality or feature06:33
fabbionewho would like to spend a few minutes doing it?06:33
zulfabbione: uh so like kdb?06:33
fabbionezul: debugging is a bit different and we can apply patches per flavour06:34
zulah ok06:34
zuljust had me worried for a minute06:34
fabbionei don't consider that a 3rd party drivers that to gain 1 ms in 8000 hours processing will patch 9000 lines of code06:34
fabbioneso anybody wants to write this stuff down?06:35
fabbioneit's just copy/paste from this discussion basically ;)06:35
fabbionei will offer a beer at the next conf? ;)06:35
infinityI'm grabbing the log anyway, so I'll do it.06:35
jbailey12:26 <infinity> jbailey : Alright, I'll grab the log later. :)06:36
fabbioneinfinity: you win a beer :)06:36
fabbioneehhe06:36
infinityYay, beer!06:36
fabbionenext point06:36
fabbione 3rd party drivers will be maintained as patches.06:36
fabbionethis was just a decision06:36
fabbionenothing fancy06:36
fabbioneit has always been there06:36
fabbionenext one:06:36
fabbione Provide a psuedo/virtual package named 'linux' that depends on a generic06:36
fabbionethis has been done where possible06:37
fabbionethat means i386/amd64/ia6406:37
fabbioneand sparc06:37
fabbioneppc and hppa have too many specific needs06:37
fabbionenext one06:37
fabbione Include ABINAME in kernel version string, to remove ambiguities from bug reports.06:37
zulis anyone besides fabbione actually looking at ppc?06:37
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zuljust had to ask06:38
fabbionezul: i guess nobody...06:38
zulok then06:38
fabbioneand the funny thing is that i don't even have one to test on06:38
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chmjlack of hardware06:38
zuli could care less about ppc imho06:38
infinityPPC and I will spend some quality time when my Mac comes home to me.06:38
infinityWhich is at the end of June.06:38
fabbioneinfinity: ok :)06:39
jbaileyzul: What's needed?  I don't have a lot of time, but my main two boxes are PPC.06:39
chmjfabbione: you don't? 06:39
fabbionejbailey: it needs porting love :)06:39
fabbionechmj: no06:39
fabbionesince it breaks every time06:39
jbaileyThe boxes I have are probably not the ones that need alot of love.06:39
zuljbailey: im not exactly sure it just needs someone to hold it and pet it and love and call him george06:39
fabbioneanyway ppc is fluxating a lot now06:39
fabbionelet's keep going guys....06:39
fabbionewe will talk about ppc later06:40
fabbione Include ABINAME in kernel version string, to remove ambiguities from bug reports.06:40
fabbionethis has been done06:40
fabbionewith the extra huglification of the version06:40
fabbione Defer enhancing ABI check for now; improvements to this can come over06:40
fabbioneas it says.. we have deffered it..06:40
fabbionethe original system invented by mdz and improved by dilinger and lamont seems to meet our needs fine for now06:41
fabbione Add a -dbg kernel image for all architectures that have a generic kernel06:41
fabbionezul: ^^06:41
fabbionestatus update?06:41
zul686-dbg 386-dbg done...i have to enable kdb in the kernel rest will be working once 1.3 is branced06:41
zuland the ramdisk_size issue 06:42
fabbionerocking.. infinity, jbailey i will need you to test the -dbg packages on amd64/ppc06:42
fabbionebut that's in about a couple of kernel releases06:42
jbaileyfabbione: Will we get reminders at the time? =)06:42
fabbionezul: we might want to get that one fixed before06:42
zulfabbione: if i knew how to fix it i would06:43
fabbionejbailey: do i ever forget who are my bitches^W^Wyou? ;)06:43
jbaileyfabbione: Not so far, dear. =)06:43
fabbionezul: ok we will work on it together than06:43
=== chmj shivers
fabbionelet's skip Debian/Ubuntu pkg unification for now06:43
fabbionewe will take it later06:44
fabbione Add infrastructure to autobuild git/bk snapshots from upstream.06:44
infinityBut dilinger showed up just for that, I suspect. :)06:44
fabbionedeferred for now....06:44
fabbioneinfinity: right in 10 minutes :)06:44
fabbionejust that we finish the other simple points in the specs06:44
fabbioneif somebody is interested in creating git/cogito autobuild snapshot can speak now.. or we will recruit for breezy+106:45
zuloh that would be fun..not that im volunteering06:45
infinityI would, but my plate's too full this cycle, I suspect.06:45
infinityIt's something I cal look at when bored, though.06:45
infinitys/cal/can/06:45
chmjI still need to spead my wing on the build system 06:45
fabbionechmj, infinity: it's not a high priority thing06:46
jbaileyfabbione: Is that something best left to the GrumpyGroundhog timeframe?06:46
fabbioneso if you feel bored or waiting for firefox to compile...06:46
infinityjbailey : GrumpyGroundhog will pretty much buy us this for free, but we're not sure when Grumpy will happen.06:46
fabbionejbailey: the motivations behind kernel crack of the day are several06:46
jbaileyRight.  But do we want to encourage folks to try for CrackOfTheDay before that?  It seems better to not pretend that we might even support such a notion.06:46
fabbionelike testing upstream fixes06:46
infinityfabbione : I'd leave it deferred for now anyway.  I don't have time for it right now, and I doubt anyone else wants to look at it.06:47
fabbioneinfinity: i am not promoting it :)06:47
zuljbailey: suse/novell has a kotd 06:47
fabbionebut if somebody volunteers....06:47
fabbionejbailey: COTD won't be in the archive.. only somewhere available06:47
chmjfabbione, can still be touched on spare time, I guess 06:47
dilingeri could do some git stuff06:47
fabbionechmj: sure.. that works for me06:48
chmjsweet 06:48
dilingerbut people at work are making me deal w/ a failed drive right now06:48
fabbionedilinger: wait .. i would really love you to do something else ;)06:48
fabbione Add a hook to kernel image's postinst to call out to module-assistant.'06:48
fabbionei think we should defer this one to breezy+106:48
chmjwhy ?06:49
jbaileyIS that where my mkinitramfs hook goes? =)06:49
infinityIs the end goal there to never have to provide any binary packages matching module-source packages?06:49
fabbionechmj: because we can't ship it in the default install CD06:49
infinityIf so, I'm all for it.  Keeping those in sync is stupidly painful.06:49
fabbioneinfinity: the goal was to have a common framework, where the user stick his external module source06:50
fabbionethat get rebuilded automatically at postinst if there is an ABI change06:50
fabbionebut that's quite complicated 06:51
infinityAhh, so not for sources we ship?06:51
fabbioneand there are several points of failre06:51
infinityJust for random downloaded crap.06:51
fabbioneinfinity: whatever that is source 06:51
infinityThat sounds harder than it initially did.06:51
chmjheh, yes 06:51
fabbionewe still have the issue that even if it is source that we ship, it might build on the kernel you are going to install06:51
fabbione+ you need the framework to depends on gcc-*06:52
fabbione+ you don't know if the crap that it's in there needs to be built with a specific order06:52
fabbioneso i think we should rediscuss it a bit06:52
infinityFair enough.  It sounds cracktastic.06:52
fabbionewell it is....06:53
fabbionei think dilinger and I were discussing it at 5am :)06:53
fabbioneor something like that06:53
fabbioneany other comment on this?06:53
fabbione306:53
fabbione206:53
fabbione106:53
fabbioneok06:53
fabbione Notification applet.06:53
fabbionethat's done06:53
infinity\o/06:53
fabbionebasically if you have event notifier installed06:53
fabbioneevery time you upgrade your kernel you get told to reboot..06:54
fabbioneF4nCy06:54
chmjsweet 06:54
fabbioneso let's go back to the Debian/Ubuntu thing06:54
fabbione#06:54
fabbioneUnify Debian and Ubuntu kernel packaging. Drop dpatch, and add centralized06:54
fabbione    *06:54
fabbione      config file generation/management. (possibly use cdbs2) (low priority: decision beeds to be taken within 2 months)06:54
infinitydilinger : You can stop working on hard drives now.06:54
fabbionedilinger: what is the situation and feelings in debian about this merge?06:55
fabbionei know that quite a bunch of guys would be happy about it06:55
infinityIt can't be timed more appropriately, given Sarge's impending release and Etch opening up within a week.06:55
fabbioneand i remember we agreed on you and horms to prepare somekind of draft...06:55
infinitySo, now is the ideal time to shove unification down everyone's throats.06:55
fabbioneinfinity: let me tell you a secret.. i knew when sarge was going to be released :)06:56
fabbionedilinger: ??06:56
infinityI think dilinger got stuck dealing with that failed drive at work. :/06:56
fabbioneok06:56
infinity(See, you shouldn't have left this point til last)06:56
fabbionelet's suspend it for a while06:56
fabbioneand hope he can come back06:57
fabbionewe forgot 2 important things from the specs06:57
fabbionePPC64 and CONFIG_ handling (the latter also part of the debian integration)06:57
fabbioneKamion: i think it would be nice if you can stay here with us a few minutes?06:57
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Kamionsure06:57
fabbionePPC64 :)06:58
fabbionefinally we have a working toolchain06:58
Amaranthhow come the backports meeting isn't in the topic?06:58
fabbionethat can build the kernel (or we believe so)06:58
fabbioneAmaranth: we are in another meeting. kthxbye06:58
dilingerback06:58
Lathiatfabbione: 'kthxbai'06:58
Amaranthyeah, get it right :)06:58
jbaileymeow06:58
Amaranthi'll watch this one06:58
fabbionewe agreed after some discussion for the naming of the new ppc64 flavours :)06:59
dilingerfabbione: i don't think anyone has problems w/ a merge06:59
fabbionepowerpc, powerpc-smp -> 32Bit06:59
dilingerfabbione: trave11er's reworking the debian packaging to build from a single source06:59
fabbionedilinger: ok.. we will take it up in a few minutes if that's ok06:59
dilingerapparently he wasn't aware of ubuntu's work to do that06:59
dilingerok06:59
fabbionepseries-smp, iseries-smp -> ppc6407:00
fabbionethe power3 and power4 flavours will die07:00
fabbionereplaced by pseries and iseries07:00
fabbionegiven that we don't have any experience i would suggest a few releases transition plan07:00
fabbionethat will mean overbloating ppc images with what we have now07:00
KamionI still really hate the pseries name for that07:01
fabbione+ the ppc6407:01
infinityfabbione : And what does one install on their G5?  (Yes, I know it's the pseries one, but no one else will know that)07:01
Kamioninfinity: my feeling exactly07:01
fabbioneok...07:01
fabbioneany better suggestions are welcome until they retain the -smp at the end07:01
fabbionesince there will be no UP for them07:01
infinitypowerpc64-smp, iseries-smp07:02
fabbione(according to benh it's perfectly safe)07:02
infinitySince iseries is the odd man out.07:02
fabbioneKamion: are you happy with that?07:02
Kamionyeah, iseries is unusual powerpc64, in the same way as powerpc isn't everything that's "PowerPC" but it's the most generic kind07:02
Kamionwell, most common07:02
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Kamionfabbione: yes07:02
fabbioneKamion: ok.07:03
Kamionnot bothered about whether -smp is there or not07:03
infinityAnd so much for that bikeshed.07:03
fabbionenow the point is to get people to test these kernels and d-i before we kill the old flavours07:03
fabbioneKamion: i am a bit fuzzy in having it for the sake of consistency with the other arches07:03
jbaileyWhat testing is needed?  powerpc should just work on all the 32 bit ones, no?  And the 64 bit ones are new.07:03
fabbionejbailey: that's why we need a ppc person in the team ;)07:04
fabbionejbailey: we need somebody to see if the kernel actually works before we force it to the users07:04
infinityfabbione : My Mac will be handy here, as it's an OldWorld, and thus far more likely to not work right. :)07:05
infinityfabbione : Again, that's "end of month" timeframe.07:05
fabbioneperfect07:05
fabbioneKamion: what do you want me to do in terms of udebs?07:05
fabbioneKamion: should i give you udebs for 64bits or should we wait?07:05
Kamionfabbione: yes please, same udebs as are currently there for power3/power407:06
Kamionfabbione: so just let it use modules/powerpc/ and it should be fine07:06
fabbioneKamion: ok.. i will generate udebs for you07:06
fabbioneand you will decide what you want to include in d-i for testing07:06
fabbionei have no problems with that :)07:07
fabbioneKamion: thanks07:07
Kamionok, no problem07:07
fabbioneany other comment on PPc64?07:07
KamionI imagine I'll just s/power4/powerpc64/g07:07
infinityYes, send me one.07:07
fabbione(btw i will take this tasks since i think i am one of the few with access to the porting box)07:07
fabbioneinfinity: if i had one....07:08
jbaileyMigration path for people with current kernels?07:08
infinitywhich box is that?07:08
fabbionejbailey: we will use linux-meta for that07:08
fabbioneinfinity: davis07:08
infinityfabbione : I have access.07:08
fabbioneinfinity: want to take the tasks?07:09
infinityNot really. :)07:09
fabbioneinfinity: so shut up next time :P07:09
infinity<grin>07:09
fabbioneheeh07:09
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zulsend me one and ill do it ;)07:09
titus`hi07:09
fabbionejbailey: i think it will be safe at a certain point for the 64bit kernels to provide the old 32 power3/407:09
fabbionebut we will see when we will have the images in place....07:10
fabbionedoes it sound reasonable to everybody?07:10
fabbioneok07:10
fabbionelet's go back to Debian07:10
fabbionedilinger: are you still around?07:10
chmjdilinger, ? 07:11
zuldiiiiiiiiilinnnnnnnnnnger07:11
=== fabbione sighs
zulsorry07:11
fabbioneok i guess dilinger is floating around a bit07:12
infinityLooks like his job kidnapped him.07:12
fabbionei think other than the Debian merge we have done with the specs...07:12
infinityAnything else on your agenda?07:12
fabbioneinfinity: yes07:12
fabbionejust one second..07:12
fabbioneah sorry.. i had a cramp on my right hand07:13
fabbionethe last item in agenda is 2.6.12 in main07:13
fabbionehow do you guys feel with the current images?07:13
fabbioneright now we are not respecting ABI changes07:13
fabbioneto keep the package "simpler"07:14
zulexcept with some random crashing im fine with it07:14
jbaileystable for me on i386 and ppc so far.07:14
Mithrandirfabbione: they blow up on my AMD64 due to acx07:14
fabbionei am fine here too...07:14
fabbioneMithrandir: did the old version work?07:14
Amaranthfine here in i38607:14
Amaranthon07:14
fabbioneMithrandir: if so can you try to do some debugging?07:14
zulMithrandir: im getting random crashes as well with ati07:14
chmji386 work for me 07:14
fabbioneanyway acx is an external driver and Mithrandir is supposed to be the amd64 porter :)07:15
Mithrandirfabbione: 2.6.10-5-amd64-k8 works fine, 2.6.12 blows up.07:15
fabbioneMithrandir: you lose :)07:15
Mithrandirfabbione: I can do some debugging if you give me kernels I can debug usefully. :-P07:15
fabbioneok.. i guess i will than upload 1.2 with the -dbg merges from zul07:15
zulthere isnt one for amd64 yet07:16
fabbioneMithrandir: acx is easy to debug.. i will tell you tomorrow how07:16
fabbioneand we will ask to move the kernel in main07:16
Mithrandirfabbione: if you say so.07:16
fabbionethat means start supporting it07:16
fabbioneincluding ABI changes07:16
zulheh we werent? :)07:16
fabbionezul: nope.. :)07:16
fabbionewe cheated07:17
zuloh...07:17
fabbioneoh i shouldn't have said that07:17
=== fabbione goes and edits the logs
fabbione:P07:17
fabbioneok07:17
infinityToo late.07:17
fabbioneso general consensum is to have it in main07:17
infinityBetter now than never, really.07:17
infinityThe bugs will get worked out faster if more people install them and complain.07:18
fabbioneinfinity: i tend to agree if some arches like ppc didn't tend to selfdestruct each minor upstream release07:18
zulyah...fun fun07:18
fabbionebut yeah07:18
fabbioneit's time to move it to main07:18
fabbioneit will be a bit more painful in the beginning but ok07:18
chmjzul: heh 07:18
infinityPain is character-building.07:19
chmjfabbione: painfull is putting it mildly07:19
fabbionewhen do we want to switch 2.6.12 as default kernel?07:19
zultomorrow hah!...edit that out as well :)07:19
fabbione2 weeks after it will hit main?07:19
infinityDepends on how many bug reports we get. :)07:20
zuluh...wait..linux-restricted-modules07:20
fabbionezul: easy dude... it's an rc release07:20
infinityIf it seems reasonably stable 2 weeks after it goes in, promote it.07:20
fabbioneit might eat your machine and you still don't know07:20
fabbioneinfinity: agreed07:20
chmjfabbione: depends on the bugs Ithink 07:20
fabbionezul: daniels is already working on them07:20
fabbionechmj: bugs or non bugs we need a deadline07:20
fabbionethere will be always bugs07:20
zulfabbione: ok 07:20
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zulyeah it is the kernel07:21
fabbionethere is no way to get a 0 bugs kernel07:21
fabbionepeople can make bugs out of hello.c07:21
fabbioneso..07:21
fabbionedilinger: are you back?07:21
chmjlike infinity, has to be reseanably stable07:21
chmj+said 07:22
jbailey*g*07:22
fabbioneok07:22
fabbionelast item in the agenda07:22
fabbionethat was for dilinger07:22
fabbionewe need to do some CONFIG_ rework07:22
fabbionei know dilinger and zul started on it already07:22
dilingeryea07:22
dilingeri'm here07:22
dilingerthis is a horrible time for a meeting, btw :)07:23
fabbioneit's goal is to try to get CONFIG_ options across arches/flavours are coherent as possible07:23
infinityDude, it's 3:23am where I am, don't complain.07:23
dilingerthe CONFIG stuff ties in w/ the package unification stuff we're doing w/ debian07:23
fabbionedilinger: ok.. so if you don't mind to give us a short status update again07:24
dilingeri hadn't bothered to finish it due to the fact that i couldn't use it07:24
fabbionedilinger: why not?07:24
dilingerbecause there is no common package yet07:24
dilingerso getting back to what i was saying07:24
dilingertrave11er's started working on a single source package07:24
dilingerhe wasn't aware ubuntu already did it07:24
dilingerhe also wasn't aware that we wanted to use cdbs207:25
fabbioneehehhe07:25
dilingerwe made him aware, and he started pulling in changes; but he hasn't started using cdbs207:25
dilingeri haven't looked at his stuff yet (been busy moving), but i plan to within the next week or two07:25
fabbionei did look at his tree and it seems interesting07:25
dilingerubuntu and debian requirements should be about the same07:25
fabbionedilinger: other than the udebs yes07:26
dilingerdebian has some additional requirements; i don't believe there's anything that ubuntu needs that debian doesn't, other than udebs07:26
fabbionewe have the same pkging requirements atm07:26
dilingerso, merging just makes sense07:26
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fabbionedilinger: the only problem is to move debian away from svn07:26
=== fabbione hides
dilingeri'll look at trave11er's stuff, convert to cdbs2 if it lends itself well to it, and made it so that it works for both debian and ubuntu07:26
fabbioneto a more sane SCM to handle branches07:26
dilingerfabbione: i'm hesitant to do such a thing until lifeless fixes baz bugs that are keeping me from actually getting stuff done07:27
fabbionedilinger: point taken07:27
infinitySVN works fine.  Leave the poor thing alone.07:27
dilingerit's looking like we might just skip right to bzr or git in a few months07:27
dilingerwhichever actually matures07:27
fabbionebzr sounds fine to me :)07:28
fabbionewhat do we want to do in the meanwhile?07:28
dilingerpart of making the single source packaging work for both ubuntu and debian includes adding CONFIG_ handling07:28
Amaranthis bzr the python git that actually does more?07:28
dilingerAmaranth: bzr is the python SCM; git is the "tree management" something-or-other that other SCMs (cogito, monotone or darcs, i forget which) are attempting to base themselves off of07:29
fabbionedilinger: ok.. sounds good, perhaps we want to start experimenting the CONFIG_ stuff in ubuntu while traveller plays with the packaging?07:29
dilingerfabbione: to be honest, i'd rather get the packaging out of the way first.  the architectures headache causes me much more stress than config file handling07:30
dilingeronce we have a single source package, CONFIG handling suddenly becomes *my* problem when i do a new kernel-source upload and am required to update configs for 20 different files instead of just 507:30
dilingerso i'll be quick to take care of that ;)07:31
fabbionedilinger: ok :)07:31
dilingerdid i miss anything?07:31
fabbionedilinger: we need to set a timeframe for this work07:31
dilingerok07:32
fabbionebecause definetely we can't wait forever07:32
fabbioneso i suggest we merge the packaging asap07:32
dilingeri'm considering this week to be a waste; i've still got a bunch of things i need to take care of related to my new apt07:32
fabbioneand later the source trees07:32
dilingerthis weekend/next week, i intend to work on the packaging07:32
dilingeri don't know how far along trave11er is yet07:32
fabbionedilinger: sounds fine for me07:32
fabbioneit will give me time to do a few userland things07:33
fabbioneso i suggest:07:33
fabbione- we merge the packaging07:33
fabbionebasically debian/* !debian/patches07:34
fabbioneand at a later stage when Debian will start to work on .12 we will merge the code too07:34
=== dilinger nods
zulso would this mean would we have to keep track of bugs and bugzilla?07:34
fabbioneat least the common part of debian/patches/*07:34
fabbionezul: no07:34
fabbionezul: we will only take care of our bugs07:35
zulok07:35
fabbioneand debian will do it in it's bugtracking07:35
dilingerfabbione: i still do intend to get -as kicked off again after .12 (i'll need to write scripts to interface git instead of bk, though.  which is where the git autobuild stuff might tie in..)07:35
fabbionewe will have different patchsets at the end07:35
dilingerso having debian and ubuntu share patches, and call it -as, might work07:35
fabbionedilinger: yes.. works for me07:35
fabbioneand on top everybody adds whatever they want07:36
fabbioneso that it get's more tasty ;)07:36
fabbioneok07:36
fabbionei think that's it07:36
fabbioneis there Any Other Businees?07:36
fabbione307:37
fabbione207:37
fabbione107:37
fabbioneok07:37
fabbionethanks everybody07:37
chmj:) 07:37
fabbioneit was nice to see you all07:37
=== infinity passes out.
dilingerheh07:37
=== chmj applause
fabbioneand see you again in 2 hours for the backporting meering07:37
zulthat will keep ogra happy07:37
chmjman, I'm gonna miss that 07:38
fabbionebye and have a nice evening if you will not show up later07:38
ograheh07:38
fabbionedilinger: if it's ok with you we will review possible deadline of the merging later or tomorrow...07:38
=== ogra looks for the broom
=== fabbione needs to go and cook dinner
=== chmj goes home
chmjcheers all !07:39
=== zul goes have lunch
Nafallothanx all :-)07:39
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Tue 6 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Wed 1 June 1930 UTC Ubuntu Backports discussion || Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Tue 6 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
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makogreetings everyone08:52
dilingerhello08:53
zulhey mako 08:53
makothere's not a bonus meeting in here now, is there?08:53
Nafallohi mako 08:53
Amaranth30 minutes?08:53
siretarthi folks08:53
makoyeah, 35 or so08:53
makoi'm going to start working on the agenda.. 08:53
siretartmako: there was, I think08:53
Amaranthlets start now, decide to not allow backports, and be done before the backports guys get here :D08:54
siretartlol08:54
tseng|worktoo late for that, he's here08:54
tseng|workbut i second the motion08:54
tseng|work*G*08:54
tseng|workbrb08:54
Amaranthjdahl? what's his irc nick?08:54
Amarantherr, jdong08:55
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makoAmaranth: alas, we're going to be constructive instead :-P08:55
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tseng|workhello ubunteros08:58
siretarthi tseng|work 08:58
Nafallohi tseng|work 08:58
kassetramako: do you want our suggestions on the agenda page as well?09:00
ograsure09:01
ograits a wiki, its for all of us ;)09:01
\shevening people09:01
ogra\sh, you stopped packaging ?09:02
tseng|workkassetra: i thought I asked you to do that a week ago :(09:02
tseng|workthe page was empty until a few hours ago09:02
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makokassetra: umm.. i'm editing it now09:02
Amaranthno backports for packages in main? kinda harsh09:02
\shogra: yeah....fixed one bug, the next is waiting :( c++ crap09:03
Amaranthoh, the meeting hasn't started yet ;)09:03
kassetraI have the suggestions, but I wasn't sure you wanted them on the agenda.09:03
\shogra: and finally it's your thing, gnome ;)09:03
ogra\sh, lazy guy, GO PACKAGING, there is still 1/2h left ;)09:03
tseng|workAmaranth: uh, not really.09:03
tseng|workbackports-for-main screws support09:03
ograAmaranth, 30mins09:03
tseng|workbecause people dont readily advertise that they have backported stuff on their system09:04
siretartkassetra: I'd suggest to create a new wiki page then09:04
\shogra: gnome-chemistry-utils09:04
tseng|worksee the support nightmare for gentoo gnome team with breakmygentoo if you need proof09:04
Amaranthgood point09:04
ograhmm, \sh *very* important indeed ;)09:04
makogive me like 5 minutes more to do this09:05
\shogra: and taking over ivoks work ;)09:05
tseng|workbasically people dont understand that third party bugs dont go to bugzilla09:05
JohnDongI've tried to get people to understand that...09:05
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ogra\sh, i saw it, awesome :) i love our team09:05
tseng|workJohnDong: its not your fault, they just cant fathom it09:05
JohnDongthanks, tseng... I've put disclaimers everywhere on the Backports site... but some people just don't read :)09:06
tseng|worka segment of people attracted to crack-of-the-day are not really well aclimated to how OSS works09:06
kassetraWe're working on ways to really broadcast that idea to people...09:06
\-hey JohnDong, thanks for the backports. wanted to say that for a long time.09:06
JohnDongthanks :)09:06
tseng|workseemingly a large segment09:06
ograyep09:06
AmaranthJohnDong: my only problem with the backports is that you've put my stuff in hoary universe instead of hoary-extras ;)09:06
JohnDongAmaranth: what package, specifically09:07
JohnDongI've taken smeg out due to gnome deps09:07
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AmaranthJohnDong: oh, then just pymusique and related packages09:08
AmaranthJohnDong: I guess gnome-menus from the 2.10 cvs branch was too much crack, eh?09:08
AmaranthI need to go back and redo that package...09:08
JohnDonggnome-devel broke with those packages09:08
JohnDongI can't accept that09:08
=== mako just told steve bourne to call back later
makoYES THAT BOURNE09:09
makoi hope you all feel important09:09
\shwhoever it is?09:09
JohnDonglol09:09
infinityPfft.  He was calling from my bedroom, dude.09:09
Amaranthyeah, every hoary user using my stuff is getting a backport (*gasp*) of gnome-menus that breaks gnome-devel09:09
\shjust a VIP ;)09:09
siretarthas the meeting already begun?09:09
JohnDongsort of, I guess09:09
\shno 20mins left09:09
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kassetraAmaranth - you're going to kill me telling me that.09:10
\sheta:2009:10
ograsiretart, in 2009:10
makoi'm still finishing the agenda09:10
\shbut we're heating up i guess ;)09:10
JohnDongmako: thanks for all the time you're putting into this09:10
JohnDongwe've needed this for a while now09:10
siretartheavy discussion already here. promises to be a heatful meeting :)09:10
Amaranththis is kind of odd for me09:10
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Amaranthi've made backports, some of my stuff is in backports, and i'm trying to be a MOTU so i kinda don't like backports...09:11
=== Amaranth beats himself up
kassetrawell, MOTU and backports shouldn't be mutually exclusive.09:11
JohnDongI certainly don't try to make anybody use backports...09:11
JohnDongand I certainly am not trying to make Backports conflict with Ubuntu efforts09:12
=== ubuntugeek is now known as Ryantroy
Amaranthpersonally i think universe shouldn't freeze09:12
Amaranthhey Ryantroy 09:12
\shAmaranth: i don't think that backports and motu are byting each other..but the problem is, we need a policy for backports...09:12
kassetrawhich is why we're all here.09:12
\-why a policy for backports?09:12
\shAmaranth: see gentoo...even gentoo.de has it's own backports repos09:12
JohnDong\sh: what do you mean, biting?09:12
Amaranthwhy would gentoo need backports?09:13
JohnDongwhat kinds of conflicts am I not informed?09:13
JohnDongamaranth: experimental ebuilds09:13
Amaranthah, breakmygentoo09:13
JohnDongamaranth: Version bumps, like what I do, are done with the mv command ;)09:13
tseng|worker, gentoo cant have backports09:13
tseng|workthat doesnt make sense.09:13
ogra\-, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports09:13
JohnDongtseng:3rd party repo, not really backports09:13
tseng|workyes09:13
tseng|workthats totally different, more common with apt-get.org09:14
tseng|worklets ignore it.09:14
RyantroyAmaranth: hello09:14
JohnDongok09:14
JohnDongPerhaps a more relevant example is Fedora...09:14
AmaranthRyantroy: Still waiting on moderator access to my subforum. ;)09:14
JohnDongCore 3 shipped with Firefox .10 and since then, they've updated it to 1.0.409:14
makoalright09:14
makoi put up a new agenda09:14
RyantroyAmaranth: Yes :) I know... working on that solution atm.. Sorry its taking so long.09:14
bob2isn't Core 4 out, or nearly so?09:14
makoEVERY GO EDIT IT AT ONCE09:15
JohnDongbob2: almost09:15
makoEVERYONE GO EDIT IT AT ONCE09:15
bob2mako: ONE09:15
JohnDongmako: lol09:15
Amaranthyes, let's break it09:15
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bob2BREAKMYWIKI, it'll be awesome09:15
makoit's obvious09:15
Amaranthdoesn't rosetta handle people editing things at the same time?09:15
bob2moin at -O9!09:15
makoscrew moin09:15
siretarthey dholbach :)09:15
dholbachhey09:15
bob2Amaranth: rosetta != wiki09:15
tseng|workbob2: -j00709:15
ograhi dholbach 09:15
JohnDong*resisting urge to CTRL-A*09:15
JohnDongj/k09:15
Amaranthbob2: It could be. :)09:15
JohnDong;)09:15
makoscrew moin, lets replace zwiki with BAZ09:15
bob2hahaha09:15
kassetraLOL09:15
makoSUCH A GOOD IDEA09:16
dholbach:)09:16
bob2mako: harsh!09:16
makothat will make mdz happy09:16
tseng|workhah09:16
tseng|workplaintext in version control09:16
tseng|workim down for that09:16
bob2mako: only Subversion can deliver the enterprise synergy and XML compatbility needed in todays heady internet marketplace.09:16
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ograhey jbailey :)09:16
JohnDongbob2: I've had a LOT of trouble with subversion09:17
Amaranthbob2: Congrats, you've blown the top off the bullshit-o-meter. :)09:17
JohnDongRyan can testify to svnadmin recover09:17
JohnDonglol09:17
AmaranthJohnDong: Use the fsfs backend.09:17
bob2Amaranth: I'd like to thank Jeebus, and the forums and Scientology.09:17
JohnDongAmaranth: I could change systems now that my lazy cycle is done09:17
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JohnDongAmaranth: before I served directly from mod-dav-svn09:18
drmaravohola holita flanders terrex09:18
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AmaranthJohnDong: scary09:18
JohnDongAmaranth: tell me about it09:18
terrexdrmaravo: X-D09:18
Amaranthperfect timing, as always09:19
mdzmako: do we have an agenda for the backports discussion?09:19
JohnDongmdz:http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports09:19
JohnDongI'm quite happy with this agenda09:19
ograhttps://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports09:19
Burgundaviaalways good before a meeting, a netsplit09:19
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ograhaha09:21
ogradilinger incognito09:21
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\shah there ;)09:21
dilingeruhm?09:21
\shfreenode hub ddos ;)09:21
ogradilinger, havent seen you yet with this name :)09:22
dilingerouh yeah09:23
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Amaranthhide!09:23
\shhahaa....now i know why i had so much traffic on my line09:23
dilingergentoo rulez!09:23
\shsamba greets me09:23
ograGOOD MORNING JDUB !09:23
=== zul smacks dilinger
tseng|work"How can the backports team guarantee that system works after using their packages, are backports rather using cdbs or debhelper?"09:23
tseng|workwhat does this mean09:23
JohnDongI was looking at that, too09:23
AmaranthKDE 10x10!09:23
=== Amaranth runs
=== Riddell pats Amaranth
ograAmaranth, lol09:24
JohnDongtseng: I think it's a question on the method we use to build packages?09:24
\shand all those windows noobs tried to inject me with this stupid viruses09:24
tseng|workwell i imagine you dont touch rules09:24
Amaranthi'm running gnome-panel, kicker, and xfce4-panel, which do i choose? :)09:24
\shKDE 90x10 it says ;) because gnome only 10x10 ;)09:24
bob2JohnDong: that can't be it09:24
bob2JohnDong: you can't be touching debian/rules when backporting things09:24
tseng|workif you did i'd be beating you alot harder :P09:24
tseng|workso the question seems odd09:24
JohnDongtseng: no, I don't touch rules, lol09:24
infinitybob2 : Says you.  I've done some pretty intrusive backporting.09:25
Amaranthouch09:25
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Amaranthnetsplit bites back09:25
tseng|workwell actually you should have for mono09:25
ograAmaranth, you still have left one edge09:25
bob2infinity: you don't count!09:25
tseng|workbut thats another story09:25
JohnDongtseng: yeah... Mono is really a mistake....09:25
ograAmaranth, for an xtra panel ;)09:25
bob2infinity: it was the hat doing the editing, afaict09:25
Amaranthogra: i should be running it all on e17?09:25
zulahem...kernel...09:25
ograhehe09:25
JohnDongtseng: BTW, the Beagle Wiki uses Backports as its primary Ubuntu installation method, though ;)09:25
tseng|workzul: dude help me backport glibc09:25
JohnDongLOL09:25
infinitybob2 : Altogether possible.  The hat always has had a thing for makefiles.09:26
tseng|workJohnDong: uh09:26
zultseng|work: no i want to live to a ripe old age09:26
tseng|worki tried to explain to seb (who did that) why thats crack09:26
JohnDongtseng: not trying to give you high blood pressure09:26
tseng|workhe cant understand09:26
tseng|worki beat on him for 2 hours or so09:26
JohnDongOh, he wrote that wiki article?09:26
tseng|workhe just cant fathom why something that appears to work to him can be wrong09:26
ajmitchhi09:26
ograhey ajmitch 09:26
\shETA 309:26
Amaranthbeagle wiki's install method broke my system when i upgraded to breezy :/09:26
tseng|workhi andrew09:26
JohnDongAmaranth: that shouldn't be possible09:27
bob2ajmitch: hah, up early09:27
JohnDongAmaranth: Backports doesn't survive if you put in Breezy09:27
tseng|worki actually told him to leave it as it was, rather than promote breezy09:27
JohnDongyeah, you told me that, too ;)09:27
=== dieman watches in
tseng|worki dont want those users using breezy anymore than I do backports09:27
AmaranthJohnDong: It was an old mono backport09:27
siretart3minutes to go :)09:27
tseng|workat this stage09:27
Amaranthactually i think it came from manno.name09:27
tseng|work...09:28
JohnDongtseng: Yeah, Backports mono is a mess, I'll agree :(09:28
tseng|workthose are the WORST09:28
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tseng|workits all native packages09:28
bob2haha09:28
Amaranthhey, i just followed the beagle wiki :P09:28
tseng|workand he didnt merge mcs and mono sources09:28
ograargh native packages09:28
tseng|workno idea where he got an mcs orig09:28
kassetraOk, mono was not our brightest moment in the backports world.09:28
bob2"deb http://manno.name/debian/ breezy cvs", debian, breezy, cvs.  WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?09:29
ograerr09:29
tseng|workkassetra, that wasnt backports09:29
tseng|workthat was some guy making his own package09:29
Amaranthhaha09:29
zulbob2: besides a fatal beating09:29
JohnDongCan we please stop mentioning non-backports 3rd party repos?09:29
tseng|workyes.09:29
=== tseng|work hits Amaranth
JohnDong:)09:29
\shok ETA 1 packaging a cigarette ;)09:30
Amaranththey kinda all get lumped together when users have extra repos in their sources.list and ask for help on #ubuntu09:30
bob2zul: hey, I'm not the manno.name person09:30
Amaranthis that macewan?09:30
JohnDongAmaranth: Yeah, and I often get blamed for that too09:30
JohnDongAmaranth: I've got a guy bitching at me because his Sid sources no longer work...09:30
JohnDongand it was aparantly my fault...09:30
JohnDonglol09:30
bob2Amaranth: someone needs to talk to the ubuntuguide person about the "Recommended" sources.list crap09:31
ograyeah09:31
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tseng|worksomeone is already woking on ubuntuguide09:31
JohnDongbob2: Would you rather have him recommending Marillat?09:31
Amaranthbob2: jiyou?09:31
ograouch09:31
Amaranthhe was, for awhile09:31
ograJohnDong, what for either ?09:31
\shtranscode :(09:31
JohnDongtranscode, acroread 709:31
bob2JohnDong: I don't know.09:31
Amaranthhalf the people with broken systems in #ubuntu have sid marillat enabled09:31
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JohnDongYou guys gotta admit, Backports is safer than Marillat09:32
Amaranthok, time for the meeting to start09:32
mdzmako: are we ready?09:32
bob2JohnDong: presumably you guys don't have crap like w32codecs in there, tho09:32
siretartAmaranth: ++09:32
JohnDongand Backports is safer than forcing Sid packages to install09:32
tseng|workmaybe we should just backport marillat09:32
makoalright09:32
tseng|workthat would be awesomes.09:32
JohnDongI was working on that09:32
makoalright.. i don't have ops here09:32
JohnDonga lot of Marillat is in Backports09:32
JohnDongbut let's move on :)09:32
makoso i can't forcefully SILENCE PEOPLE :)09:32
JohnDong**Ready to start09:32
mako(yet)09:32
ograJohnDong, its also in multiverse09:32
tseng|workMAKO HAS THE STAGE09:32
Amaranthjdub: ping?09:32
jdubAmaranth: pong09:33
makoso we need to all show restraint here09:33
Amaranthjdub: op mako :)09:33
makoso anyway09:33
ograAmaranth, we're all grown up...09:33
makohttps://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports09:33
mdzbefore we dive in, we should elect someone to take notes09:33
mdzand summarize the discussion, preferably in the form of a draft spec09:33
makoeverytime we need quiet, mdz will ask that question09:34
mdzany volunteers?09:34
mdzmako: good idea09:34
kassetrawell, I'll volunteer, but I'll need to know some specifics.09:34
makokassetra: sure09:34
makokassetra:  i can go over the form with you.. take notes often means just go through the log later09:34
ograkassetra, see the specs on udu.wiki.ubuntu.com09:34
kassetrak.09:34
makokassetra: thanks :)09:35
makokassetra: but yeah.. if you need summary or overview, stop us at anytime09:35
kassetraok.09:35
kassetrawill do.09:35
ograkassetra, there are alos logs of the meetings to review if you need09:35
ograalso even09:35
kassetra(ok.  :)09:35
makook.. so the agenda is not set in stone09:36
makobut we should try to stick to it generally09:36
JohnDongOk09:36
makowe'll call for any othe comments on particular issues in the subsections09:36
ografor anyone: people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/09:36
makoand we should be ready to put issues to rest or to put them off for a later meeting if we're going down a rathole09:36
JohnDongok09:36
fabbioneplease somebody else should also record the irc logs09:36
mdzI'm logging09:36
kassetraI have them being recorded as well.09:36
fabbionesince freenode is not exactly stable today09:37
makoi'm logging too09:37
Amaranthi'm logging09:37
BurgundaviaI am logging09:37
JohnDongwe get the point09:37
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Amaranthhehe09:37
makoJohnDong: alright dude :)09:37
JohnDonglol09:37
makoJohnDong: why don't you give us a brief background on the backports project09:37
JohnDongsure09:37
makoemphasize what we probably don't know09:37
Amaranthin case of netsplit, stop discussion09:37
JohnDongThe Backports project started halfway through Warty's release, when Firefox 1.0 came out09:38
JohnDongPrimarily, I intended to address apps like GAIM And Firefox getting dated through the 6-month release cycle09:38
JohnDongFrom there, I registered a SF project and started offering two or three debs09:38
JohnDongRyan also made arrangements with me for a Ubuntu Backports section @ the forums09:39
JohnDongsince then, requests have been exponentially growing, and soon SF booted me off :)09:39
makowhy?09:39
JohnDongtoo much bandwidth09:39
Amaranthtoo much bandwidth09:39
JohnDongto do APT repositories, I had to use Public Web Services09:40
makohow much bandwidth were you using?09:40
JohnDong20GB or so daily09:40
JohnDongThey've been "setting up a sandbox" for me, since last October :)09:40
\-this should tell how much people like the backports :)09:40
JohnDongAnyway, we moved to a Ubuntu Forums server and continued happily09:41
JohnDongToday, the repository houses 400 packages weighing in at 14GB, with about 40GB daily transfer and 24,000+ unique IP's logged in a 7-day period09:41
Amaranthdamn09:41
Lathiatwow09:41
mez That's not including Mirrors09:41
makohow many people are contributing backports09:41
\sh1.2TB per month09:41
mdzJohnDong: which 400 packages?09:41
JohnDongprimarily desktop programs from Universe09:42
makocan we get a list?09:42
mdzJohnDong: and how do you decide which packages?09:42
JohnDongusers request them, I make sure they're not too big, then I package them09:42
makoJohnDong: are you the only person doing packages?09:42
JohnDongmako: it's available via rsync09:42
fabbioneJohnDong: do you repackage them, or you use the ones from a newer ubuntu suite?09:42
JohnDongmako: no, there are 2 new developers, fairly recently added09:42
makoJohnDong: it might be nice to take a look at that list right now09:43
mdzJohnDong: do you support any non-i386 architectures?09:43
JohnDongbefore Hoary, I was the only one09:43
makoJohnDong: ok09:43
JohnDongwe're starting to support powerpc09:43
JohnDonghttp://ubuntu-backports.mirrormax.net/09:43
JohnDongyou can get a rough idea of what I backport by looking into the repository09:43
Amaranthyou packaged 400 packages by yourself?09:43
JohnDongyeah09:43
dholbach400 packages take up 14gb?09:43
JohnDongwith history :)09:43
ograhow that ?09:43
fabbioneJohnDong: can you answer my question please?09:43
fabbioneJohnDong: do you repackage them, or you use the ones from a newer ubuntu suite?09:44
makodholbach: many versions09:44
JohnDongsorry09:44
JohnDongfabbione: I recompile Breezy packages09:44
pittiJohnDong: you take unstable Ubuntu's packages and build them for hoary/warty? Or do you really repackage them? (Why?)09:44
JohnDongI try not to modify them09:44
ograouch09:44
JohnDongI take Ubuntu devel packages and rebuild them for Haory09:44
pittiah, ok09:44
mdzso in what way is the result different, from a usability standpoint, from Breezy itself?09:44
JohnDongstability.09:45
fabbioneJohnDong: what criteria do you use to select build-dependencies?09:45
JohnDongaah, one at a time09:45
Amaranthno g++ tranistion, no x transition09:45
mdzJohnDong: do you only update the packages when you decide that they are stable?09:45
JohnDongcorrect09:45
mdzAmaranth: but we didn't do those things during Hoary, and still there were backports09:45
JohnDongonly when the community tests to deem it stable09:45
Amaranthmdz: agreed, it didn't make as much sense then09:45
mdzbut it happened, so clearly there was some need09:46
JohnDongfabbione: I try only to select packages that are satisfied by Hoary dev packages09:46
makoJohnDong: do you rebuild against a system with backports or against a pure hoary system in each case?09:46
mdzI'm trying to establish what the use cases are which are not met, or not seen as met, by our existing offering09:46
\shmdz: update policy of ubuntu ... but later09:46
JohnDongI rebuild against a Backports chroot09:46
ograJohnDong, who reviews you packaging changes if they happen ?09:46
mdzwhat is it that users are looking for which leads them to backports, and not to any of our existing trees?09:46
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Amaranthguys, one at a time please09:46
NetGeeksorry I'm late09:46
=== doko wonders about classifying GCC as desktop application
dholbachcould all the backport developers in here raise their hand?09:47
makoNetGeek: we're all asking JohnDong questions at once09:47
JohnDongmdz, about the demand for Backports:09:47
Mezmdz, people coming to use backports are basically looking for the most up to date version of general desktop apps09:47
JohnDongsome packages become useless very quickly09:47
kassetramdz: typically a user request a backport because they want a new feature / bug fix, etc.09:47
NetGeekbtw: I'm Mike a Backport Developer09:47
makoJohnDong: useless is pretty subjective09:47
AmaranthMez: Are you the other one?09:47
mdzmako: extremely so09:47
Mezno - I'm a backports user ;)09:47
fabbioneJohnDong, NetGeek: so.. how come there was a new version of glibc available from backports?09:47
JohnDongsorry for the bad wording09:47
kassetramdz: if they're requesting an application be backported without a meaningful reason, we won't backport it.09:47
JohnDongaaahhhhhh09:48
Amaranthmako: If the user considers it useless, it's useless.09:48
mdzAmaranth: but different users have vastly different criteria09:48
makokassetra: really?09:48
JohnDongfabbione: Firefox 1.0.4 Breezy is compiled with GCC4, so I decided to do the same09:48
kassetramako: really.09:48
jdubmdz: interesting use case -> regularly putting new versions of cool (reviewed?) apps on a magazine coverdisk09:48
mdzI know a lot of people who are happy with the web browser, IM client, etc. in hoary, and even Warty09:48
makokassetra: how many requests are rejected?09:48
JohnDongright now, it's a 50-5009:48
mdzjdub: I don't think that's what backports is being used for today, though09:48
fabbioneJohnDong: did any of you evaluated the impact of a new glibc?09:48
jbaileyfabbione: Did it appear and then go away?  I didn't see it in the backports tree when I was trying to hunt it down.09:49
fabbioneand if so.. how09:49
mdzJohnDong: wait, so you're using g++-4.0 in backports now?09:49
ograouch09:49
jdubmdz: people see version number increases and begin to salivate, regardless of wheter or not it makes sense to upgrade09:49
JohnDongmdz: only with packages in breezy that explicitly call gcc-4.009:49
Burgundaviajbailey, I did some hunting as well, and I couldn't find it on the usual suspects (backports, marilliat)09:49
=== Amaranth cancels statement about not using breezy
JohnDongcurrently, that's ONLY FIREFOX09:49
\shuhhhh09:49
JohnDongit DOES NOT COMPILE with 3.309:49
makolets try to stay away from the specifics right now09:49
JohnDongfabbione: what new glibc?09:49
infinityJohnDong : Would make more sense to edit firefox's debian/rules to not explicitly call the new compiler, then.09:49
mdzJohnDong: you can't build firefox with g++-4.0 unless you also build all its dependencies with g++-4.009:50
mdzmako: this is valuable, for me at least09:50
JohnDonginfinity: it still doesn't compile09:50
makomdz: alright09:50
infinityJohnDong : what mdz said.  You're asking for a world of C++ ABI trouble.09:50
JohnDongthe code has changed since09:50
fabbioneJohnDong: somehow a bunch of users using backports did have a newer version of glibx09:50
fabbioneglibc evenb09:50
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Amaranththey had a crack repo enabled then09:50
sabdflhi all09:50
Amaranthhey sabdfl 09:50
mdzit sounds like you're running into the ABI transition issue anyway09:50
\shevening sabdfl 09:50
Mezfabbione, it's only in the staging area at the moment if I remember correctly09:50
ograwhich caused a LOT of trouble and dragged a lot of manpower09:50
AmaranthJohnDong: You should explain staging maybe?09:51
JohnDongare we getting into specifics already???09:51
kassetrawait.09:51
ograhey sabdfl 09:51
mdzsabdfl: JohnDong is helping to educate us about what backports are today09:51
makoogra: hold off09:51
fabbioneMez: well the point is that it's breaking hoary-security updates (including the kernel)09:51
ajmitchhello sabdfl 09:51
mvohey sabdfl 09:51
kassetraJohn: why don't you explain what mdz asked about first.09:51
ogramako, sure09:51
fabbioneMez: but we can talk about tech details later09:51
fabbionehi sabdfl 09:51
makofabbione: yes09:51
dokoJohnDong, you should use a compiler from breezy, namely g++-3.4 -fabi-version=1. upgrading system libraries shouldn't be done in backports09:51
JohnDongthanks for that info09:51
\shJohnDong: why didn't u try to talk to the devs for reviewing the policy of updating ubuntu?09:51
AmaranthI thought 3.4 was ABI incompatible with 3.309:51
mdzdoko: let's discuss for now what is happening, and later decide what should happen :-)09:51
dokos/breezy/hoary/ of coursse09:51
makoi think we should probably try to establish something like this a little bit later as a good policy to move forward with09:52
makowhat mdz said09:52
makoJohnDong: why don't explain staging09:52
mdz\sh: it has come up many times already; we will not abandon the idea of a stable release09:52
Amaranthok, let's try to get back on track09:52
\shmdz: i know :)09:52
JohnDongstaging: When a backport gets packaged it goes into beta-testing under the -staging section of the repository09:52
JohnDongthat way, we can see how the package behaves in a live APT repo09:52
Mezmako: it says this about staging "But, BIG FAT WARNING: The staging area should be treated like Debian experimental -- it's NOT tested, NOT guaranteed in any way, shape or form to be stable!"09:53
makohow many people use it?09:53
siretartJohnDong: what criteria do you have for moving it to the regular backport archive?09:53
makohow long do things stay in staging?09:53
Amaranth7 days, iirc09:53
JohnDongstuff stays in staging for at least a week, sometimes a month or more09:53
NetGeekmako, one week usually09:53
sabdflis -staging like -security or -updates?09:53
JohnDongno09:54
sabdflit's a separate little repo?09:54
JohnDongit's like a -experimental09:54
JohnDongyep09:54
sabdflok09:54
makosabdfl: no, it's just testing for the main backports archive09:54
JohnDongto separate the testing from the stable09:54
kassetramako: we try not to let go of items in staging if there are still errors.09:54
JohnDongsiretart: no bug reports in staging09:54
sabdflok. so folks who want latest crack go there, others get it from  the primary backport repo09:54
makohow are bugs reported?09:54
mdzJohnDong: yes, it is like -security or -updates in the sense that sabdfl meant09:54
JohnDongNONE... it's a beta testing area09:54
kassetrasabdfl: well, those are the ones we mark "for testing purposes only!"09:55
JohnDongit's more like a testing area for -updates09:55
suifurmako: we receive them via our forum at http://ubuntuforums.org09:55
JohnDongthe entire Backports repo is like hoary-updates09:55
siretartJohnDong: do you have a bug tracking system or goes bugreporting exclusivly through webforums?09:55
mdzyes, but the point of testing is to get feedback :-)  where does the feedback go?09:55
kassetramdz: the forums09:55
mdzthere must be some means to report problems, or you wouldn't know whether they work or not09:55
JohnDongin the Ubuntu Backports section of Ubuntuforums09:55
mdzok, so bug reports go to the forums09:55
makomdz: it all goes to the forums09:55
JohnDongcorrect09:55
makoalright.. 09:56
sabdflJohnDong: would it be useful to have a more structured bug management system for the staging area? or do you actively want that stuff on a forum/mailing list?09:56
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JohnDongsabdfl: not really, do you really want users to register for another account??09:56
JohnDongthey'd be much less willing to file a bug report09:56
sabdflKinnison is writing the infrastructure which will manage archives etc for breezy+1, so i thought to invite him along09:56
\shJohnDong: when those people reporting to official bugzilla or malone...it doesn't matter ;)09:56
suifursabdfl: the forum has been effective and we've seen no reason to change the bug-reporting system09:57
makoJohnDong: well, it would be the same login for the website, wiki, launchpad, etc09:57
sabdflJohnDong: we only do one account around here :-)09:57
=== Kinnison intends to mostly lurk; if people want me to comment on something, ping me so irssi turns red
siretartJohnDong: take a look at the debian bts. you can file bugs without accounts there09:57
Amaranthheh, with smeg they don't even seem to be willing to make a new thread for bugs, asking them to make a new account somewhere would kill any hope for bug reports09:57
JohnDongmako: If it can be integrated with Ubuntu's bugzilla, that'd be awesome09:57
sabdflJohnDong: it would be09:57
makoJohnDong: exactly09:57
JohnDongI'm all for it :)09:57
mdzJohnDong: there is already a single login for the website/wiki, malone, rosetta, etc.09:57
makook, that's a possibility09:57
sabdflwe already have the infrastructure to support this09:57
\shcan we wait with integrating something in something?09:57
JohnDongthanks for letting me know09:58
Amaranthok, back on track09:58
mdzit would be nice if we could share credentials with the forums09:58
JohnDongyeah09:58
makobefore we move on though, can we back to questions about backports is and what it is doing?09:58
Amaranthmdz: talk to Ryantroy 09:58
JohnDongONE AT A TIME :) :)09:58
RyantroyHello09:58
\shJohnDong: so r u only backporting apps or also essential libs (libs in main and/or universe?)09:59
JohnDongno libs09:59
JohnDongjust apps09:59
JohnDongmostly in universe09:59
JohnDongbut a hand-picked FEW in main09:59
JohnDonglike Firefox, Gaim, xchat09:59
JohnDongI've never went deeper than that :)09:59
makoany other questions about what backports are.. how they are done, etc?09:59
ograJohnDong, but hwo do you handle C++ then ?09:59
mdzJohnDong: what do you do if the current version of the app in Breezy doesn't work with the libs/infrastructure currently in backports?09:59
JohnDongmdz: with the second FF 1.0.4 backport, I've tried to introduce GCC409:59
ograin hoary ?10:00
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JohnDongI though since GCC4's alpha was already in Universe, introducing the real thing wouldn't hurt10:00
JohnDongyeah10:00
JohnDongAfter a month of testing, nobody's said anything's wrong10:00
JohnDongand I use ubuntu for at least 8 hours daily10:00
\shJohnDong: did u have any concerns breaking binary compatiblity in hoary?10:00
JohnDongI did, and that's why it stayed in -staging for a month10:00
sabdflJohnDong: is FF C++?10:00
JohnDongyes10:01
mdzsabdfl: very much so10:01
Amaranth*shudder*10:01
mdzJohnDong: so what did you do about the ABI transition?10:01
Amaranthso wouldn't that break everything in hoary that uses firefox?10:01
JohnDongI haven't seen any problems yet10:01
sabdflis the breakage then confined to any FF libraries that other apps might use?10:01
JohnDongAll that build on mozilla-firefox-dev work fine10:01
mdzJohnDong: after a rebuild, you mean10:02
JohnDongno, no rebuild10:02
JohnDongEpiphany worked fine10:02
ograJohnDong, o still use mozilla-ff, not ff ?10:02
Amaranththat's impossible10:02
\shAmaranth: not at all...if u r using ff as an app it won't break anything...if you need some things from some ff libs u r lost10:02
mdzoh, firefox-dev exports a C interface, not a C++ one10:02
JohnDongogra: I have both names as aliases for each other, to aid in transition10:02
ograOUCH10:02
dokofirefox doesn't have any external C++ build deps, so if you don't build firefox-dev, then the C++ ABI version doesn't matter10:02
\shmdz: no c++ stuff in those libs?10:02
JohnDongI tested Firefox dependents a lot10:02
mdz\sh: inside, yes, but not exporting an interface10:02
ogradid you check how it breaks upgradeability ?10:03
\shmdz: ok 10:03
JohnDongI play with chroots and bringing them to 10:03
JohnDongBreezy10:03
JohnDongAlso, I use the "~" version tag in Backports10:03
JohnDongso everything's "older" than Breezy10:03
Amaranthi've never quite understood how that worked10:03
JohnDongAll backports get removed when someone apt-get upgrades to Breezy10:03
JohnDongAmaranth: foo 1.0.0~ubp is older than foo 1.0.010:03
JohnDongthe "~" tag is special10:04
mdzJohnDong: how can you be sure of that (all backports get removed)?10:04
makowell, that's one part of upgradability10:04
JohnDongmdz: because I know all Backports packages are older than Breezy's10:04
sabdflthe version ordering is well documented and implemented10:04
Amaranthso you have to bump the version number to match the one in breezy?10:04
mdzJohnDong: what if the package is removed in breezy?10:04
sabdflif there's a ~ in there it's older10:04
JohnDonghow often does Firefox get removed from Breezy ? ;)10:04
mdzJohnDong: we're going to do it shortly10:04
mdzmozilla-firefox has been renamed to firefox10:05
sabdflmdz: we don't in any event guarantee that a hoary -> breezy upgrade == breezy install10:05
JohnDongTo answer your question: I make an override package in Breezy backports10:05
JohnDongmdz: what do you do without backports if Firefox is removed?10:05
mdzsabdfl: no, but we know where everything came from10:05
mdzJohnDong: we'll rely on the metapackages for the transition10:05
sabdflmdz: we won't in the real world with 3rd party ISV's, so we shouldn't be too paranoid10:05
mdzsabdfl: that's different, backports contain infrastructure components, ISV's don't10:05
JohnDongmdz: If it doesn't get automatically overridden in extreme cases, I'll do it via a fake Breezy backport10:06
JohnDongI've yet to see this happen though...10:06
mdzit depends entirely on which packages you decide to backport10:06
=== mako nods
mdzwhich is one of the reasons I'm interested in that list10:06
JohnDongany good place for me to post it?10:07
sabdflthe wiki10:07
ograJohnDong, ubuntu-devel mailinglist10:07
fabbioneor both10:07
ograyep10:07
fabbione;)10:07
siretart:)10:07
Amaranthyou want to dump a list of 400 packages in the wiki?10:07
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\shsummary: there is a extra repos  with ca. 400 packages making 1.2TB per month downloads 10:07
\shJohnDong: why didn't u apply for a motu job? ,-)10:07
makoAmaranth: yes.. 10:07
ograAmaranth, sure we work with it regulary on such a base with MOTU10:07
makoAmaranth: 400 is not so long a list10:08
Amaranthogra: I seem to remember firefox locking up and crashing on those MOTU pages. :)10:08
\shAmaranth: the c++ transistion list is on the wiki...and it works ;) 10:08
ograAmaranth, thats a ff bug ;)10:08
kassetraI'll add the package list to the wiki.10:08
makokassetra: great, thanks10:08
makoalright.. 10:08
makoare there more specific questions for JohnDong or others about what backports do or how they do it?10:09
makoif not, we can move on...10:09
\shmako: the how is explained on their webpage10:09
JohnDongsent to the list10:09
makoJohnDong: thanks10:09
mdzI count 184 packages in hoary-backports10:09
JohnDongyeah10:09
JohnDongWarty has quite a few, too10:09
mdzmain+restricted+universe+multiverse10:09
mdzoh, so that's 400 .debs10:09
Amaranthmdz: don't forget extras10:09
JohnDongyeah10:09
JohnDongextras, too10:10
mdzhow many actual source packages, do you know?10:10
JohnDongI don't have that number10:10
mdzthere are no sources on the backports mirror10:10
JohnDongthey're all Breezy sources10:10
pittiJohnDong: to what percentage you can used breezy source packages unmodified?10:10
JohnDongI thought wasting space on that would be pointless10:10
sabdflneed to have sources :-)10:10
makoJohnDong: you should probably fix that, from a gpl compliance issue10:10
JohnDongpitti: 100%10:10
pittiJohnDong: uh, that's surprising :-)10:10
JohnDongmako: can I just point to Ubuntu sources?10:11
fabbionethat's impossible10:11
ograyep10:11
JohnDongwhy do you say so?10:11
ograJohnDong, not if you modified them10:11
Amaranthwe've seem how many things have changed in breezy10:11
ograJohnDong, (pomit to ubunu that is)10:11
ograpint even10:11
Amaranthfor instance, any C++ backport would be changed10:11
fabbionebecause there are at least a few dependencies or build-dependencies that you need to modify10:11
=== ogra curses his keyboard
makoJohnDong: you need to be responsible to provide them to people10:11
ajmitchand also because you need to at least change the version number to rebuild each one10:12
mdz54 source packages10:12
bob2if nothing else, you've changed the version10:12
mdzso we are talking about a MUCH smaller amount of code than I thought10:12
makoalright.. in most cases, the changes are very minor10:12
JohnDongyeah;10:12
ograJohnDong, GPL forces _your_ to provide your changes as source...10:12
makomdz: that's good news10:12
Amaranth54 slightly changed source packages10:12
JohnDongchanges are limited to a few extra chars on changelogs10:12
JohnDongogra: how about "~5.04ubp1"????10:12
mdzhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/temp/backports-sources.txt10:12
makoJohnDong: still need to provide source but that's not a conversation we need to have10:12
Amaranththis is starting to not sound so bad10:13
mdz5 versions of gcc!10:13
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ograJohnDong, that doesnt give ppl the changes in the source10:13
JohnDongmdz: huh?10:13
tseng|workJohnDOng: you cant post a binary w/o source if its a different binary than in breezy10:13
mdzoh, that's probably an error in my source mapping logic10:13
JohnDongthe binaries ARE NOT DIFFERENCE10:13
JohnDongDIFFERENT10:13
ograJohnDong, sure10:13
Amaranthcan't you provide sources as a patch against the breezy source?10:13
zulmdz: i noticed linux-image-2.6.10-19 was there as well10:13
JohnDongsure10:13
ograAmaranth, yes10:13
makoalright lets try to reign this in a bit.. the source distribution issue and gpl stuff is not super relevant10:14
makoat least not to this discussion10:14
dokoJohnDong, why do you need all these GCC versions?10:14
\shat least, we know now, that backports is not only updating, it's even upgrading in some areas (like ff)10:14
infinitydoko : I think that was an error in mdz's script. :)10:14
mdzyes, I've fixed it up by hand10:15
JohnDongdoko: what GCC version???10:15
mdzthe fastest way to do it was to map the packages based on breezy10:15
fabbionemdz: kernel is still missing :)10:15
JohnDongzul: that was for Warty10:15
makoJohnDong: it was a script error :)10:15
ogragcc-4.0_4.0.0-7ubuntu6~5.04ubp1_i386.deb10:15
JohnDonglol10:15
JohnDongok10:15
mdzfabbione: feel free to do it yourself10:15
ogragcc-4.0-doc_4.0.0-7ubuntu6~5.04ubp1_all.deb10:15
Amaranthaside from mono this list doesn't look bad at all10:15
mdzI just wanted an idea of what was there10:15
JohnDongguys, a family issue has popped up10:15
JohnDongI'll need to leave for about 15-20 minutes10:15
fabbionemdz: hence the ":)"10:15
zulJohnDong: that was still way behind10:16
makoJohnDong: alright.. 10:16
makoare there other bp people around?10:16
JohnDongzul: that never made it to stable10:16
JohnDongyeah10:16
kassetrayes.10:16
AmaranthNetGeek10:16
makoJohnDong: hurry back10:16
JohnDongand Kass can help you out10:16
Ryantroyhello10:16
Amaranthoh, and kassetra 10:16
JohnDongI'll keep logging10:16
kassetra:)10:16
ograthere is a ton of libs in that list10:16
mdzfabbione: I see no linux-* anywhere in the hoary-backports Packages.gz10:16
mdzRyantroy: hi10:16
Amaranthand Ryantroy has something to do with all of this, as ubuntuforums admin10:16
Amaranthi guess10:16
pittiuh, tla, but no bazaar :-/10:16
fabbionemdz: as JohnDong said, it's in warty from hoary10:17
mdzfabbione: did I miss something?10:17
Amaranthwho would request tla? :P10:17
mdzfabbione: I only looked at hoary backports10:17
fabbionewell there are backports to warty too.. zul?10:17
Amaranthbtw, nothing from main is a bit extreme10:17
makoi have one more question10:17
zulfabbione: i believe so10:18
siretartare the backports for warty updated with sources from breezy?10:18
makoare people actively backporting stuff to warty still?10:18
ajmitchAmaranth: supportability issues for canonical..10:18
zulmdz: i saw it in the forums...ill dig it up again10:18
\shat least no libstdc++6 ;)10:18
\shin warty10:18
tseng|worki was told that backports to dists were removed when the dist+1 became rasonably stable10:18
Mezmako - according to the developers group - this stoopped a while back10:18
ograAmaranth, but that breaks stuff, heavily10:18
makoMez: ok.. good to know10:18
Amaranthfor example, gnome-menus in hoary has a bug that makes menu editing impossible, the patch is about 60 lines10:18
zulmdz: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1591310:18
tseng|workor just stopped new backports I guess10:18
doko\sh, libstdc++6 is in warty10:19
mdzzul: ok, that's warty10:19
dokomaybe universe10:19
kassetratseng: correct.10:19
makoalright.. we need to move on10:19
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Amaranththey don't have the bandwidth to support backports for more than one distro10:19
Amarantherr, more than one distro release10:19
mdzI would like to raise the question of security support10:19
makocan we establish if there are any more remaining questions here about what backports are?10:20
mdzonce a package has been backported, how are security  updates handled?10:20
ogramako, the list is enough10:20
mdz(if they are)10:20
mkdei am interested in "why" the backports are10:20
makokassetra, Mez: ?10:20
Amaranthmako: i think we're good there10:20
RyantroyAmar: we got 4 mirrors now and the main BP server has plenty of bandwidth10:20
mkdemaybe that is OT tho10:20
ogramako, and JohnDong's explanations10:20
Amaranthmkde: was explained at the beginning10:20
kassetramdz: let me grab that explanation for you.10:20
makokassetra: great10:20
mkdeAmaranth, ok i missed it10:20
Amaranthmkde: check fabbione's logs10:20
mkdeAmaranth, they are not quite current i don't think10:20
mkdebut i will later10:21
sabdflmdz: if backports are generally the next version's sources, they would inherit our security work10:21
Amaranthmkde: want me to paste in a PM for you?10:21
\shthe bandwidth is nothing...when I think about the wide user range10:21
mkdeAmaranth, that would be lovely thanks10:21
Amaranthsabdfl: only if the backport is updated10:21
makosabdfl: right, but not on our timescale10:21
kassetrasabdfl: correct, and yes, we do update backports.10:21
fabbionesabdfl: only if they are regularly maintained10:21
ograsabdfl, only if upgradeability is guaranteed10:21
fabbionewell as the above10:21
kassetramako: John stays on top of security fixes for any package he backports.10:21
mdzsabdfl: we don't do security work in the development branch until after upstreamversionfreeze, at the earliest10:22
ograkassetra, for all 400 ?10:22
infinitysabdfl : Only if they continue to upgrade their backports.  People will often backport a version, then not update it for a month.10:22
makoand since there are only ~50 source packages, that's relatively straight forward10:22
mdzit would be a waste of effort10:22
pittiJohnDong: are you aware that currently I do not actively do security updates for Breezy? mostly we get them through Debian10:22
kassetraogra: yes.10:22
Amaranthwe are now down to one bp developer here10:22
makoAmaranth: JohnDong will reappear in a few minutes10:23
ograkassetra, so he is subscribed to the secret mailing lists handling vulnerabilitys ?10:23
kassetramako: exactly, we aren't backporting large amount of code, so security fixes are relatively minor.10:23
kassetraogra: yes.10:23
ograok10:23
pittimost issues are fixed, but there are certainly one or two unfixed vulnerabilities in Breezy10:23
mdzpitti: he's away for a bit10:23
makokassetra: right, but pitti is saying that *we're* not even providing real security support for the breezy packages10:23
pittiyeah, I just noticed10:23
makocan i get one last call for open questions about backports?10:24
kassetramako: right, he checks securityfocus as well.10:24
Mezmako, so doesnt htta mean tahtyou're making the people helping out by bugtesting breezy vulnerable to security issues?10:24
pittiMez: really bad issues are fixed10:24
makowe're making them vulnerable to a wide range of issues.. welcome to development releases10:24
AmaranthMez: it's a development version, they really shouldn't expect it to be bug and exploit free10:25
sabdflinfinity: what if we did it automatically?10:25
pittiMez: but if it is convenient, I just mail a patch to Debian and wait until they fixed it, which might last a week in some cases10:25
makoalright.. 10:25
makolets move on10:25
infinitysabdfl : Then you lose the promised stability of a backport repo.  When I used to backport stuff, I would pay attention to the debian changelogs (okay, I cheated, i wrote the debian changelogs), and I'd only backport and publish known-good versions.10:26
Mezpiti, then if you're deeming certain things to be not "important" enough to be fxe din your dev version, does it make a difference if they're in the backport?10:26
infinitysabdfl : You can't really automate that sort of "I think this version's good and stable enough to release it to users" very well.10:26
mkdeMez, yeah because the backport gets used with peoples' hoary10:26
ograMez, its a _development_ version.... we only care about the most critical things10:27
mkdewhich should be secure/stable10:27
pittiMez: yes, I think so, since stable versions should not have any open issues10:27
sabdflinfinity: good point10:27
pittiMez: well, it depends what the bp audience is; for desktops, it's probably alright, but for servers you can get screwed10:27
sabdflmaybe we could have an auto-built repo, and a migrated-from-autobuilt-by-hand-cos-it's-solid repo10:27
makopitti: it's mostly desktop applications10:27
makoin any case10:27
Mezpitti: near enough everything that is backported are desktop apps10:28
Amaranthdesktop apps and utilities, it looks like10:28
ograsabdfl, grumpy auto security ?10:28
makoi'd like to sort of help kassetra with the notes by putting together a list of concerns and limitations of backports now10:28
pitti.... apart from samba, yes10:28
makoif you'll let me steer conversation in that way10:28
makowe've done a bit of that already10:28
\shpitti: if we were talking about servers they won't have 1.2TB per month bandwisth on one server ;)10:28
makobut i think it will be helpful to sort of establish the problems briefly before we establish thes olutions10:28
Amaranthmako: good idea10:28
makothere are a number of classes of issues out there10:28
Amaranthperhaps we should debunk the myths about backports at the same time?10:29
makoi've roughly divied it into integration with the largest project issues, qa issues, communication issues and others10:29
sabdflif this can fit into our existing plans (which we can stretch a little to accommodate the backports team) then we can provide servers and bandwidth10:29
makoAmaranth: i'm not entireliy sure what that is10:29
ograAmaranth, myths ?10:29
sabdflJohnDong: where are you based?10:29
mdzsabdfl: we'd want to semi-automate it, I think10:29
kassetrasabdfl: he's in Michigan, US.10:29
makoAmaranth: if you want to do that, and you think it's the correct time to do it, why don't you go ahead and do that10:29
tseng|workwhat if we had a list to be "auto" built10:29
tseng|workfrom stuff JohnDong verified by hand10:30
Amaranthwell, most of them are cleared up now, but for example before this meeting everyone thought using backports would completely break upgrades10:30
tseng|worka whitelist.10:30
Amaranthbut perhaps that goes along with the concerns10:30
makowe can please hold off on the solutions until we've given folks a chance to identify the problems10:30
ograAmaranth, it did for the warty -> hoary part, for a lot of people10:30
sabdflsorry mako :-)10:30
mdzsabdfl: have a human decide when something should be backported, and the system handles the rest10:30
makonot everybody shares the same concerns here.. or even knows what other people's concerns are :)10:30
makowe all know what our own concerns are :)10:31
Amaranthyeah, let's go through concerns for now10:31
Mezogra, yes it did, which is when John put in the work to make sure that didnt happen in for futre upgrades10:31
makoAmaranth: go ahead, dispell some myths10:31
Amaranthmako: I'm not a bp dev, the main one I know of is the upgrading. It was true before, doesn't seem to be now. Anyway, I think it goes along with the concerns.10:31
ograMez, how can he make it sure now, breezy doesnt even exist as it will when the upgrade will happen10:31
Amaranthmako: If a concern isn't warranted, the bp devs can say so and explain why.10:32
\shmako: I'm thinking only about the users not the devs...what impact will it has, when backports are not there, and the users get p*ssed off why they don't get a ff 8.0 at the same day as it is released10:32
ograMez, we transition half of the world currently10:32
Mezogra: John explained it earlier10:32
mako\sh: i think we've already established taht backports are desired by many people10:32
makopeople want a stable system with a brand new FF or something10:32
makolots of people10:32
Ryantroytons of people10:33
tseng|workmako: most of my concernts are out of line with everyone elses and we came to a conclusion out-of-band10:33
Amaranthevery regular user, it seems :)10:33
Mezthe ~ operator makes for example package-1.0.0~ubp1 older than package-1.0.0, so it will upgrade properly10:33
ograMez, i saw it, i'm not confident since all library names for c++ stuff changes still for example10:33
makotseng|work: shouldn't keep you from saying it10:33
hervehow did you measure the "tons of people"?10:33
makoherve: 24k/week10:33
ograMez, the ~ doesnt apply if a name changed10:33
\shmako: yeah, but because of this, i'm thinking about this issue...for main, i'm quite concerned, for universe i would say: ok, one new version compiled against the libs of ubuntu hoary/breezy/breezy+1 could be ok10:33
Amaranthherve: using 1.2TB/month should be a useful measure10:33
Mezogra, which is where John tracks things like this and makes meta-packages to aid the transition10:34
kassetramako: I myself requested a backport for an application that had a massive spec change.10:34
ograMez, since its a totally different binary package then10:34
Ryantroyherve: before we had mirrors the main server was pushing a solid 10mbit pipe daily 24x710:34
tseng|workmakoL just basically mono is too large/complex to be backported by someone who hasnt worked with the packages for quite some time. its a large "stack" with interdependencies and such.10:34
ograMez, so he's aware of the c2 names ?10:34
makotseng|work: right, i think that's a reasonable thing to bring up10:34
makotseng|work: so, your concern is in porting things like interpretors10:34
tseng|workwe already agreed on why he shouldnt port something this large/complex10:35
ograMez, ... and the source changes that have to be made to a package to match them10:35
kassetratseng: yes, and we aplogize for mono.10:35
tseng|workhe ported the interpreter and no tthe bindings and appliactions10:35
\shi would like to see a system like kubuntus (riddell ping) update system...(as seen with 3.4.1)10:35
tseng|workseveral things wont work, the rest works by sheer luck10:35
makoi think the integration into the major project concerns were already raised in the forms of figuring out what the backpots project is10:35
makoso..10:35
tseng|workbut its a non issue since we agreed already, I think.10:35
\shso..concentrating only on the main desktop things like kde/gnome/xfce != main10:36
makoin terms of concerns, i've got some things on the wiki10:36
kassetra\sh: we're more similar to fedora's "rolling backports"10:36
Riddellthe kubuntu system is popular (pretty well expected) but not perfect10:36
Mezogra: you have to rememebr mnost of these are desktop apps, and will rarely change package name :D if they do, it's are, and a meta-package can be made10:36
kassetraAlso, I have added the backport package list to the wiki.10:36
\shkassetra: lets talk about something else then fedora...10:36
makobasically, there's a percieved difficulty in providing QA for these packages10:36
ograMez, i'm not upset or something, but we (MOTU) and your group should vlerly work closer together to make sure that works10:36
Mezogra, I'm not part of any group ;) just a bp supporter10:36
ograMez, the libs _below_ the desktop packages changed their names....10:37
Mezand isnt that the aim of this meeting10:37
Amaranthogra: when the desktop package upgrades to breeze i don't see how that would be a problem10:37
Amarantherr, breezy10:37
makoalright10:37
Mezas amaranth says, when it upgrades to breezy, it will use the dependency list of the new package witht eh new names10:37
ograAmaranth, the dependencys dont match10:38
kassetramako: I think that the QA questions stem from users talking with developers instead of John about the backports, correct?10:38
MezIt's  for breezy devs to make sure that works ;)10:38
makoright10:38
philipacamaniac\sh: what do you like specifically about the kubuntu update system?10:38
siretartAmaranth: right now, uploads for C++ application are restricted. as soon as this restriction is removed, backporting them will get more challenging.10:38
mdzkassetra: yes, it's very awkward to have so much parallel infrastructure for QA10:38
Amaranthogra: the breezy package will get used over the backports one, so the dependencies will be updated10:38
ograAmaranth, all backports might break once in a while while we transition ther architecture below10:38
\shphilipacamaniac: they're conform with the system...no breakage of the system 10:38
mdzkassetra: it's frustrating for developers to receive bug reports from backports users10:38
makokassetra: well, there is this issue that people want to be able to install a single package and still get support from the ubuntu community10:38
makobut they now have a system that is not pure ubuntu10:39
makoand not even *known* ubuntu10:39
Amaranthsiretart: that is true10:39
philipacamaniac\sh: That's because Riddell made them... If MOTU was in charge of backports, then...10:39
Amaranthmako: that's the same problem with ubuntuguide telling people to use marillat10:39
kassetramdz: we're working on ways of making sure users know that backports are only supported by the backports team.10:39
\shphilipacamaniac: it doesn't have to do with motu10:39
makoAmaranth: that is a problem, and it's been raised with the author10:39
\shor riddell10:39
BurgundaviaAmaranth, mako the docteam is working with the author on that10:39
\sh(that was luck ;))10:39
ograkassetra, a package where the changes are not reviewed by at least 3 other devs cant even enter universe currently, i'd like to see such a QA in the backpors too....10:40
makodo people have any other comments or additions to the list of limiations that we had collected before10:40
kassetraogra: typically john doesn't make a change to anything except the version number.10:40
makokassetra: there *is* less overview and qa for backports than there is for universe now10:40
makokassetra: introducign large amounts of new code into a system is a major change10:41
ograkassetra, how do i know, i cant see the source10:41
makoogra: that's another issue10:41
ogramako, yes10:41
makoogra: JohnDong has said these are almost always clean rebuilds from breezy and there's no reason to doubt that10:41
kassetraok, mako: we use breezy sources - so whatever qa and overview breezy sources use, we benefit from that as well.10:41
mdzkassetra: what about the atypical cases?  at least firefox falls into that category10:42
makokassetra: but that is the point that mabye you don't realize.. that code is *development* code10:42
mdzbuilding with a different toolchain is a major divergence10:42
kassetramako: no, I do understand, exactly.10:42
Mezogra: assuming that ubuntu started mirroring backports etc etc, then John owuld be able to upload the sources aswell...10:42
ogramako, sorry but he also said he didnt backport libs... 10:42
ograMez, ok :)10:42
kassetraogra: exactly.10:42
Mezbut, at the moment, he does have the bandwidth to handle it :D10:42
ogramako, and his package list is full of libs10:43
makokassetra: introducing a huge ball of development code into a stable system is a major change and makes the entire system less reliable and more difficult to support10:43
mdzogra: there are pretty few libraries in hoary-backports10:43
ogramdz, i only look at the list he mailed10:43
kassetramako: ok, we're not talking backporting libraries or any multi-level applications.10:43
Amaranthif you say no backports for things in main then the main reason for having the backports is gone (firefox and gaim)10:43
mdzperhaps there are more in warty-backports; I didn't look at his list10:43
makoAmaranth: dude, don't jump to the end of the agenda10:44
Amaranthmako: sorry10:44
Amaranthmako: the agenda seems to have fallen apart...10:44
makoAmaranth: well, don't make it worse10:44
Mezwhere in the agenda are we?10:44
Mezish10:44
makowe're in the problems issues10:45
ogramdz, 68 libs according to: grep ^lib |wc -l10:45
\shAmaranth: i was my statement, just because, as I understand, "main" is actively supported10:45
makoright above proposals10:45
Amaranthok10:45
Amaranththe only concerns i have are that more and more things are going to have to be changed to make breezy things run on hoary after the transition finishes10:45
kassetramako: typically we don't introduce items that aren't already compatible with the OS and system-relevant libraries.10:45
JohnDongok, I'm back guys.....10:46
kassetraogra: please take a look at those "libraries" first.10:46
makokassetra: nobody is accusing anybody of introducing maintainability problems intentionally10:46
makoJohnDong: great :)10:46
Amaranthgood, now we can get back on track :)10:46
=== Mez still cant see wher about in the agenda we are (I'm just asking about how far through we are and how long this si going to a;lst
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JohnDongso I read a bit about "libraries"?10:46
kassetraJohn - in the list of items you have backported.10:47
kassetraWe're actually talking about qa.10:47
makoMez: we're talking about issues and concerns that people have with backports10:47
mdzogra: 10 of those are from wine10:47
AmaranthMez: Probably another hour.10:47
makoMez: right, and qa in particularly10:47
makoAmaranth: i think so10:47
ograkassetra, libpam-smbpass, libstdc++6, libsmbclient, libmyth etc10:47
Mezok10:47
mdzogra: that also counts runtime and devel as 210:47
Mezwell I'm going to have to go ;) sorry10:47
JohnDongmost of them are from wine or gcc4 or mythtv10:47
makoMez: alright10:47
Mezand if someone can send me alog to mezzle@gmail.com it'd be appreciated10:48
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makoMez: it will be published online10:48
Mezah, kk10:48
Mezthx10:48
linuxboywhere?10:48
AmaranthJohnDong: I'm still not sure why gcc4 was backported.10:48
mdzJohnDong: what do you do about packages which depend on the libraries for which you are providing updated versions?10:48
kassetraogra: we're not talking about libgtk2 or so.10:48
mdzJohnDong: do you rebuild them, or do people simply use the versions in hoary?10:48
ograkassetra, nope...10:48
JohnDongmdz: there is usually no ABI change10:49
JohnDonglike Samba...10:49
JohnDongFedora bumps up samba like crazy10:49
JohnDongthey started with 3.0.0 and made it up to at least 3.0.1210:49
mdzJohnDong: well, there certainly is with mythtv, eg10:49
JohnDongand they don't "rebuild"10:49
mdzwith every release10:49
JohnDongmythtv in Hoary is pretty broken up10:49
\shJohnDong: fedora is something else...do u know how redhat is working in the moment?10:49
JohnDong\sh: It doesn't matter; their update model works10:49
\shJohnDong: yes, for them10:49
mdzJohnDong: what is their model?10:49
titus`linuxboy, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/10:50
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JohnDongmdz: provide rolling updates for some packages and stable version backports for others10:50
JohnDongmdz: i.e. rolling Firefox, fixed Apache10:50
mdzJohnDong: rolling updates meaning what?10:50
\shJohnDong: but u won't see HP taking fedora as laptop distri...they would use RedHat enterprise or advanced...so redhat is picking the diamonds out of fedora10:50
Amaranthbasically what the backports do10:50
JohnDongGentoo-style introduce new versions10:50
\shand not the pees10:50
JohnDong\sh: Am I asking for HP to include Backports?10:50
JohnDongthat's not the point10:51
mdzJohnDong: meaning they track the same versions which are in their development tree?10:51
JohnDongall I'm saying is that backports works10:51
mdzJohnDong: or something else?10:51
JohnDongmdz: yes10:51
mako\sh: we've established that there is demand and that it's filling a need10:51
JohnDongthey take rawhide builds and rebuild them for stable10:51
mdzJohnDong: so if firefox breaks in rawhide, it's broken for backports users too?10:51
\shJohnDong: it is the point..this distribution is actively support not only by the community...and fedora is only supported by the community..redhat wont give u any chance to ask for fedora support10:51
JohnDongmdz: not really....10:51
mdzJohnDong: I assume the backports are opt-in, then?10:51
JohnDong\sh: correct10:52
JohnDongerr10:52
JohnDongmdz: correct10:52
JohnDongsh: I'm not asking for Canonical to support backports10:52
JohnDongmdz: Backports is perfectly optional. I don't force anyone to use it :)10:52
AmaranthJohnDong: Your users are though.10:52
makoJohnDong: you don't have to.. we've already established that it happens10:52
JohnDongAmaranth, what can I do about that?10:52
AmaranthJohnDong: I think he meant fedora's backports.10:52
kassetraAmaranth: only when they don't listen to us first.10:52
\shJohnDong: but the users are asking not the backports support channels..they want to have also support on the official lists or channels 10:52
makoJohnDong: that's why we're talking about it now10:52
mdzlook, we're not here to criticize backports.  I don't think that JohnDong is doing anything wrong, on the contrary, backports clearly provide a valuable service to the community10:53
JohnDongthanks.10:53
mdzand we're here to discuss how we can work more closely, not whether it's a good idea10:53
Amaranthyes, please don't look at it that way10:53
makomdz: Yes10:53
JohnDongI agree that this support ordeal needs to be resolved10:53
ograJohnDong, but we (MOTU) would appreciate to know whats going on in your universe and even would like to help out, you must admit that the communication was not as good as it could have been in the past10:53
makoalright10:53
makomaybe it's time to move forward10:53
makocan folks look at teh agenda and say if there are any other problems10:53
JohnDongogra: I appreciate that :)10:53
makowith backports, that should be brought up here now?10:54
kassetraogra: we've been developing technologies in the forums to help out with the communication aspects between the developers and the backports.10:54
makothings any solution or set of solutions should take in consideration10:54
makothat (a) is not on that list or (b) has not been brought up today?10:54
\shhmmm10:54
JohnDongok, developer<->backports communications10:54
kassetramako: did you want to discuss communications?10:54
JohnDongshould I use the mailing list for that?10:54
\shbackports as subpart of MOTU?10:54
makoif we've covered this ground and everyone is confident that we know the problem, we can start plowing into solutions10:54
mako\sh: that's a solution :)10:55
JohnDongI've learned saying the B-word isn't a good idea on ubuntu-devel10:55
mdz\sh: patience, we'll talk about solutions next ;-)10:55
JohnDong\sh: I don't want backports to really be a part of MOTU....10:55
makoJohnDong: in what sense?10:55
JohnDongMOTU is forced upon Ubuntu users10:55
JohnDongI don't want backports to be that way10:55
mdzJohnDong: there's a certain amount of resentment which has built up as a result of a lack of communications10:55
mdzbackports is something which has grown up outside Ubuntu, and many developers (including me, until today) didn't know enough about it10:55
makoJohnDong: lets stick to remaining issues/problems before we evaluate taht and other solutions10:55
JohnDongmdz: I understand that. But communications isn't grouping Backports with MOTU...10:55
kassetramdz: we've opened a special forum area where devs can talk with us directly to stop the communications mishaps.10:56
mdzJohnDong: I was responding to your "B-word on ubuntu-devel" statement10:56
kassetramdz: also, we're looking into tying the channels in irc into the forums as well.10:56
JohnDongmdz: yeah, I've seen some of the misconceptions10:56
Amaranthyou have irc channels?10:56
\shJohnDong: u r not forced by your users? in a special way?10:56
ograJohnDong, i must iadmit, i'm one of the people pushing that attitude, but i'm willing to change that if i see QA, upgradeability etc as MOTU has10:56
mako\sh: hold off10:56
JohnDong\sh: huh?10:56
makoJohnDong: you too 10:56
makowe'll get to that10:57
mdzJohnDong: well, consider that the first contact most of us have with backports is that we receive a bug report for a problem we can't reproduce, spend some time diagnosing, and discover that the user isn't using our packages at all10:57
=== \sh shut's up ;)
JohnDongmdz: yeah :)10:57
mdzJohnDong: at which point everyone loses, since we don't know where to send them for support, nor how the backports community works10:57
mdzand they get a RESOLVED/INVALID10:57
JohnDongok, I understand that10:57
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mdzI think we've made good progress in the right direction at this meeting10:58
JohnDongI agree10:58
ograyep10:58
mdzbut of course only a subset of the developer community is represented here10:58
dholbachJohnDong: MOTUs and Backport guys are both working voluntarily and both should need to meet some review criteria before uploading stuff anywhere, maybe that's why they both were mentioned in one breath. maybe we can think of processes how to make people more confident in what happens?10:58
makonow that we know each other and how our communities, work, we've probably gone some of the way to making that situation slightly better10:58
Amaranthis there anything backports can modify that can be used to easily tell if a user is using them? firefox UA perhaps?10:58
Amaranthshit, that's a solution, never mind10:58
makomdz: we'll MAKE the others read the summary :)10:58
mdzmako: well, we'll discuss what to do about it in the bit about solutions ;-)10:58
mdzmako: BUSTED10:58
=== mako slaps his own wrist
JohnDongAmaranth: You can't mistake a backport for a regular package10:58
JohnDongAmaranth: They all contain ~*ubp*10:59
BurgundaviaJohnDong, but the user doesn't see that when they run the icon on the desktop10:59
JohnDongBurgundavia: You want me to rebrand every package? lol10:59
ograJohnDong, the user who apt-getted doesnt know that, the bugreport goes to malone anyway10:59
mdzspeaking of which, are we ready to move on?10:59
JohnDonglet's move on10:59
makoogra: bugs going to the wrong places!@10:59
kassetraBurgundavia - no but there is the possibility of adding a backports icon to specific packages, in say, synaptic.10:59
makokassetra: that's a new problem10:59
mdzkassetra: we had discussed it earlier already11:00
Burgundaviakassetra, that would need expanded synaptic11:00
mdzer11:00
mdzs/kassetra/mko/11:00
mdzs/mko/mako/11:00
JohnDongkass: it doesn't have a Ubuntu logo beside it....11:00
makoalright.. 11:00
kassetraJohn: no, I know.11:00
makokassetra: did you want to say something else about communication problems?11:00
AmaranthBurgundavia: Doable for breezy, not a solution for hoary though.11:00
ograJohnDong, all universe packages have no ubuntu logo11:00
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makodid someone else?11:00
ograJohnDong, you talk about 1600011:00
JohnDongogra: well, maybe that should change11:00
kassetramako: well, we've been working on ways of solving those issues, actually.11:00
dokomako: require a version field to be filled and in case o a backports version, redirect the bug report11:00
mdzmako: I do, but it's all solution-oriented ;-)11:01
makoalright11:01
makoFINE SOLUTION TIME11:01
JohnDonglol11:01
kassetraLOL11:01
JohnDong:)11:01
makook11:01
mdzwhat shall we solve first?11:01
JohnDongbugzilla11:01
makolets look at the proposals on the wik11:01
JohnDongsince everyone's in my face about that right now :)11:01
ograoh, one thing i'm very concerned about11:01
makowant to talk about bugs, sure.. why not11:01
makoogra: quickly, quickly11:01
pittiimho it shouldn't really be bz, maybe malone? it already supports different releaese11:02
pittireleases, even11:02
Amaranthyeah, malone11:02
JohnDongpitti: same difference...11:02
mdzpitti: yes, malone should be the target11:02
JohnDonglol :D11:02
ograMOTU would love to see the manpower thats loszt in backports, there is no chance to convince you guys to become MOTUs ? JohnDong ?11:02
makoJohnDong: so sabdfl has already suggested throwing you guys to malone11:02
JohnDongmako: eventually, there's gonna be other 3rd party confusion in the bugs database11:02
pittiJohnDong: which differences?11:02
makoJohnDong: malone is ALL ABOUT third party confusion11:02
JohnDongpitti:nvm :)11:02
kassetraogra: manpower isn't lost to backports, ok?  That's what people want.11:03
Amarantheasy now11:03
ograkassetra, for me as MOTU it is11:03
JohnDongogra: I don't like the term "lost"... MOTU isn't backports11:03
philipacamaniacmalone seems to have bugs of its own that need to be ironed out11:03
ograkassetra, we are 20 ppl caring for 16000 packages ;)11:03
kassetraogra: if the goal is to provide users with packages, no, it's not.11:03
AmaranthWe all serve a role is making Ubuntu better for the user here.11:03
JohnDongogra: the goals are different enough that it'd cause more conflict11:03
dholbachphilipacamaniac: they will be, this is not part of this meeting :)11:03
AmaranthHow we do it isn't as important as doing it.11:03
ograJohnDong, its lost for the MOTU ;)11:03
ajmitchMOTUs want all the recruits we can get :)11:03
ograyeah11:04
JohnDongogra: nothing personal... nothing against MOTU... but I don't think we share similar goals :)11:04
mdzMOTU and backports are orthogonal11:04
kassetraogra, ajmitch: then you're going about it the wrong way.11:04
ograJohnDong, it was a lame try to recruit you ;)11:04
ajmitchsince the more MOTUs there are, the better the breezy packages will be for you to backport :)11:04
makoi think it's clear that both are different solutions filling different needs11:04
kassetramako: exactly.11:04
mdzbut they should both be closely coordinated with core development11:04
makoyes11:04
dholbachyes11:04
mdzMOTU is a better example than backports right now of how it should work11:04
kassetramdz: we see nothing wrong with that.  :)11:04
makothey are similar in that they both work on universe packages a lot11:04
makomdz: yes11:04
\shwell I would be glad to see, backport devs efford under MOTUs guidance, QA and reviewing practice...so we can improve Ubuntu 11:04
makook.. so11:04
mdzmako: hoary-backports looks like a pretty even split between main and universe11:04
dholbachi think we should have *yet another* mailing list with the debdiffs sent to it, so the packages would catch more eyes11:04
mdzif not biased toward main11:05
makomdz: hmm11:05
JohnDongmdz: more people use stuff in main11:05
AmaranthIf we could get backports more integrated it could take a load of the bp devs that they could possible spend working on MOTU things? :)11:05
JohnDongthere's stuff in universe that I've never heard of...11:05
makoJohnDong: are you comfortable moving ahead with some sort of plan for switching bug tracking to malone?11:05
JohnDongmako: sure11:05
ograJohnDong, exciting, isnt it ;)11:05
JohnDongmako: but I want forums integration, too :)11:05
=== ogra grins
JohnDongs/want/would like11:05
Amaranthusing malone really only works if we have single sign-on with the forums11:06
JohnDongAmaranth: Exactly.11:06
makoJohnDong: well, you may end up using both seperately or with some integration.. we'll see11:06
JohnDongmako: that's fine. As long as if it's separate, the Ubuntu Backports forum survives :)11:06
makosabdfl, mdz: who should he talk to be working with to identify needs and such and to move forward with malone?11:06
makoJohnDong: absolutely11:06
JohnDong:)11:06
Amaranthideally only malone would be needed11:06
mdzmako: I think we should set up a meeting between JohnDong, Ryantroy and someone on the launchpad squad11:07
Amaranthfile a wishlist bug for new backports, file bugs for broken backports11:07
Ryantroymdz: sounds good11:07
makomdz: yes11:07
JohnDongAmaranth: yeah; but forums currently attract a bigger crowd11:07
mdzto discuss the forums and launchpad11:07
mdzcommon authentication, and perhaps some way to tie in malone11:07
makomdz, JohnDong: also, we should talk about how you work your backport packages to make sure the bugs go the right place11:07
Amaranthbtw, the 'launchpad' name just made sense to me for the first time :D11:07
mdzsabdfl: who would be a good person on the launchpad side to participate in that?11:07
makothat doesn't need to happen right now11:07
makocool.. one solution down :)11:08
JohnDongmako: yeah11:08
makohow about:11:08
mako* Don't do backports for an unreleased version.11:08
makois that useful? possible?11:08
JohnDongmako: "unreleased"... definition?11:09
mdzJohnDong, ryantroy: could you guys send mail to me (mdz@ubuntu.com) so that I have your contact information?  I'll forward it on11:09
makosticking to breezy sources?11:09
AmaranthI know .desktop packages have info about where bugs go and what help to use for debian things.11:09
AmaranthOr at least I think they do.11:09
JohnDongmdz: done11:09
mdzmako: meaning that backports should be strictly from Ubuntu development releases -> Ubuntu stable releases, right?11:09
dholbachAmaranth: that's for bug-buddy afaik11:09
JohnDongmdz: I'm fine with that11:09
kassetraJohnDong: unreleased = the version that's not released yet, like Breezy right now.11:09
Amaranthyeah, for bug-buddy11:09
mdzif so, that seems reasonable to me11:09
mdzbackports are not the right place to introduce new stuff from upstream11:09
mdzit should go into our development release first11:10
JohnDongok, so reworded: only backport stuff from Breezy11:10
makoJohnDong: right11:10
JohnDongI know, stuff will get restricted very soon :)11:10
kassetraexcept, Breezy won't be breezy next time.11:10
JohnDongkass, we get it.11:10
JohnDong:)11:10
kassetra:)11:10
makoalso, not introducing new libraries sounds likew it could be huge11:10
Ryantroymdz: done11:10
makowhich is something you are trying to do already11:10
JohnDongmako: yeah, we've stopped doing that altogether11:10
makobut there are situations when you do introduce new libraries because of deps that could be worked around11:10
JohnDongmako: it was done a bit back in Warty, but I've learned11:10
JohnDongmako: If deps aren't too nasty (like new firefox libs) that's fine11:11
JohnDongmako: just no gtk backports :)11:11
JohnDonglol11:11
makoJohnDong: in the future, it may be nicer if you work with the rest of the team in #ubuntu-devel and we can figure out to do it the Right Way11:11
makoJohnDong: doko knows a few things about gcc, for example11:11
mdzmako: along those lines, I'd like to step back a bit and propose a high-level solution idea11:11
JohnDongmako: sure... it's just that #ubuntu-* hasn't been too welcoming in the past. I'll try again :)11:11
mdzI would like for backports to become an official Ubuntu project11:11
ogramako, a fwe, lol11:11
ografew11:11
makomdz: !!!!11:12
JohnDongmdz: interesting... I'd still like it to be "optional"... maybe a "recognized" project?11:12
ograJohnDong, try in -motu11:12
makoJohnDong: what do you say?11:12
Amaranthmdz: having ubuntu host it would resolve a few issues all at once11:12
makoJohnDong: oh yes.. optional yes11:12
JohnDongthat'd be nice11:12
JohnDongwe need to work out details on that, though11:12
makoJohnDong: official doesn't mean required11:12
makoJohnDong: i don't use kubuntu11:12
mdzJohnDong: what this would mean would be sharing our infrastructure and working closely with the development team11:12
makoJohnDong: hell, i don't even have gnome installed :)11:12
JohnDongmako: yeah, but kubuntu repository changes get propagated to everyone11:12
mdzright, this wouldn't imply any requirement on the part of the users11:12
\shmdz: official optional ubuntu project == u can do this and that, but bound to ubuntu community rules?11:13
kassetramdz: would users still get to request items to be backported?11:13
mdzkassetra: of course11:13
makokassetra: sure11:13
JohnDong:)11:13
Amaranthand we could work to get you guys into MOTU :)11:13
mdzif the current approach is working well, then the right idea would be to try to maintain that workflow11:13
MezI just popped back and saw this11:13
Mezall i can say is wewt11:13
mdzbut do it on top of Ubuntu proper, rather than working in a separate sandbox11:13
JohnDongso does that mean I can get access to some build machines?11:13
JohnDongprimarily amd6411:13
mdzJohnDong: it means that we would provide automatic build services11:13
makoJohnDong: so..11:13
ograJohnDong, yes11:14
mdzthe same way that breezy works11:14
MithrandirJohnDong: if you have a key signed by a DD or a MOTU then I can provide access for you.11:14
JohnDongmdz, mako: I'll need some documentation about Ubuntu's build system11:14
makofrom an organizational perspective, it will means that you guys become the ubuntu backports team11:14
ograJohnDong, on the buildds11:14
makoand keep working on your own11:14
\shmdz: but this means, that u allow updates different from secfixes ;)11:14
ograJohnDong, join the MOTU ;)11:14
JohnDongogra: stop :)11:14
mdz\sh: this is orthogonal to hoary-updates and hoary-security11:14
SeveasJohnDong is MOTB, not MOTU :)11:14
ograJohnDong, we can tell you everything about the build system11:14
makoif there are problems or issues within your team or between your team and others, it will ultimately be up to the tech board and the community council to sort it out11:15
\shmdz: this is what i meant in the beginning :)11:15
JohnDongogra: thanks11:15
JohnDongmako: sounds great!!11:15
mdzJohnDong: we can go into the implementation later, but the general idea is that we want to provide support for what you are doing, and provide for closer collaboration with the development team11:15
kassetramdz: yes, we really like the idea.  :)11:15
makoJohnDong: so you'll be giving up a little bit of control, potentially, in that sense11:15
JohnDongmako: I'm fine with compromising11:15
ograJohnDong, wecould have a MOTUBackports team11:15
makoJohnDong: but you should be working the way you did almost all of the time11:15
Amaranththat would bring us back to 'no backports form main' then11:15
JohnDongogra just doesn't give up :)11:15
makoogra: sssh :)11:15
Nafallohoary,hoary-updates,hoary-security,hoary-backports ;-)11:16
JohnDongAmaranth: I was just about to bring that up11:16
JohnDonglol11:16
ograJohnDong, never ;)11:16
mdzNafallo: right, that's the sort of idea we mean11:16
ograJohnDong, i'm known for agressive recruiting ;)11:16
makoNafallo: yes11:16
=== \sh nods
JohnDongmdz, mako: would "restricted" ever get as far as a ban on backporting stuff in main?11:16
=== \sh nods again
ajmitchogra: very aggressive :)11:16
ograhehe11:16
JohnDongprimarily, xchat, firefox, gaim....11:16
makoJohnDong: i don't think so11:16
JohnDongmako: excellent :)11:16
mdzJohnDong: I don't see any reason to have restrictions by section11:16
mdzJohnDong: but I think we should formalize what you are already doing11:17
JohnDongI'm all for working with devs11:17
kassetramako, mdz: that sounds like a winning plan then.  :)11:17
JohnDongthis sounds great :)11:17
makowell that's great11:17
mdzJohnDong: you and the community have sorted out which packages it makes sense to backport11:17
makothere are a few other things to maybe try to sort first11:17
makoi know we've been here a long time11:17
AmaranthJohnDong: that reminds me, if i redo my gnome-menus backport, would it have a chance of being accepted? :)11:17
=== siretart wants to raise a technical question
makosiretart: go ahead11:17
siretartI like backports the way http://backports.org provide11:17
JohnDongAmaranth: I think the tech board needs to be involved in this one11:17
siretartis this aproach possible for ubuntu backports, too?11:18
Nafallomdz, mako: and does that share the mirrornetwork as well?11:18
mdzNafallo: the mirrors are volunteers, it would be their decision11:18
JohnDongsiretart: if I figure out how pools work11:18
mdzNafallo: but I hope so, yes11:18
Nafallomdz: k11:18
JohnDongsiretart: I'm sure you guys know :)11:18
JohnDonglol11:18
siretartthe advatage for users: they can decide with the apt line, which backported packages they want11:18
mdzsiretart: yes, this is something I wanted to discuss as well11:18
mdzthe granularity of backports11:19
JohnDongsiretart: as long as there's an "all backports" option, too.11:19
mdzusers generally either use the backports repository, or they don't, right?11:19
mdzor do users pick and choose packages they want to upgrade?11:19
kassetramdz: pick & choose.11:19
JohnDongmdz: they either use or don't use.11:19
JohnDongmdz: apt-pinning is popular11:19
Amaranthheh, two different answers11:19
JohnDongI see more of all-or-nothing11:19
Mezprobably two differnt interpretations of thwe question11:19
JohnDongsome people do hand-pick backports11:19
kassetraYeah, I do.11:20
mdzdoes apt-pinning work well in your environment?11:20
JohnDongmdz: I've gotten excellent reports about it11:20
mdzit tends to fall apart between major Debian releases, e.g.11:20
kassetramdz: yes.  :)11:20
mdzwhere there are many complex dependency changes11:20
JohnDongmdz: but I don't like the system. it's more of a workaround11:20
mdzbut with backports, it seems like it could work11:20
JohnDongmdz: I like the Backports.org method11:20
mdzwhat do they do?  one section per source package?11:20
JohnDongmdz: are you familiar with the backports.org structure?11:20
makomdz: couldn't we just generate a load of Packages files?11:20
mdzmako: in the future, perhaps, but not initially11:21
siretartfrom what I read, nobse also plans an upload queue for DD's for backports.org. that would be awesome for us too :)11:21
JohnDongmdz: virtual "sections" with single packages, plus the whole "backports " section11:21
JohnDongmdz: just a bit of scripting magic11:21
mdzJohnDong: as above, I think that's something we should look into down the road, but shouldn't be part of our initial roadmap for getting backports integrated with our infrastructure11:21
siretartnobse == maintainer of backports.org (for those who did not know)11:21
mdzit's much more complex to administer11:21
JohnDongmdz: I agree. I see it for the future11:22
makoexcellent11:22
mdzgiven the limitations that we've agreed on, I think this should be pretty simple11:22
MezIt doesnt look that hard to do11:22
mdzif I can sketch a few implementation details for a moment, to make sure we're all on the same page11:22
Mezas John said - it's a bit of scripting magic11:22
mdzwe would create a backports repository, directly adjacent to hoary (e.g., hoary-backports)11:22
makomdz: go ahead11:22
ograwhich is already there)11:23
mdzthe backports team would decide when to backport a particular version, and would request it from the archive administrators11:23
mdzthis would cause the source package to be copied over, and rebuilt against hoary11:23
mdzthen the binaries would be published in hoary-backports11:23
Amaranthso backport+patch would be totally out?11:23
siretartthis sounds reasonable11:23
makoAmaranth: i'm sure he's going there11:23
Mezmdz: wouldnt that mean barely any work exeptdeciding what to backport for the backport developers?11:23
mdzMez: it would mean that the backports team could get out of the business of building packages and maintaining an archive (which is really not much fun anyway)11:24
\shMez:  this is a pro point of a working infrastructure and team11:24
JohnDongMez: I have autobuild scripts; the more work on quality, the better11:24
mdzand concentrate on providing the best quality service11:24
JohnDongmdz: absolutely11:24
makomdz: and in situations that that build fails, what is the process?11:24
mdzwhich I think is a win both for the users and the backports team11:24
mdzmako: then it should be fixed in breezy11:24
MezI wasnt questioning it... I was more, that makes life easier for them :D11:24
\shmako: as i understand they could use our infrastructure11:24
mdzI think wherever possible, we should provide for backports by making breezy packages continue to build on hoary11:25
JohnDongmdz: we'll need to go into the failure part again11:25
mdzusually this is not difficult to do11:25
Amaranthmdz: some dependencies need to be changed11:25
ograJohnDong, are your packages signed btw ?11:25
Amaranthmdz: and what about backport+patch?11:25
JohnDongogra: no :(11:25
mdzusually or-ed dependencies can be used11:25
makomdz: even if the fix doesn't affect the packages ability to be built against breezy?11:25
mdzAmaranth: can you provide an example?11:25
JohnDongogra: I was just workin on that yesterday11:25
mdzwhat's a situation where you need to patch?11:25
makomdz: right11:25
Mezogra - no - but they will be11:25
ograJohnDong, great :)11:25
JohnDongmako: package renames11:25
ograMez, ^^11:25
Amaranthmdz: to make gnome-menus work with smeg i need to apply a small patch (~60 lines, i think) to it11:25
MezI'm too slow ogra ;)11:25
mdzif the patch is necessary in order to build on hoary, it should be patched into breezy in a generic way wherever possible11:25
ograheh11:25
mdzAmaranth: is that patch unsuitable for breezy for some reason?11:26
Amaranthmdz: gnome-menus 2.11 is fixed11:26
JohnDongmdz: it requires a gnome-menu backport :)11:26
JohnDongmdz: I'm sure the tech board won't like that11:26
mdzthen where's the problem?11:26
Amaranthmdz: not wanting to backport GNOME just for smeg?11:26
JohnDongmdz: backporting a core component of GNOME probably won't be accepted warmly by you guys11:27
mdzwell, our archive infrastructure certainly allows for a new version to be uploaded to backports directly11:27
mdzI think we would want to establish some pretty clear criteria for when we should do that, and when not11:27
JohnDongmdz: back to the transition, what becomes of -staging? A testing area is still necessary11:27
JohnDongmdz: would -staging go into my people.ubuntu.com repo?11:27
mdzJohnDong: we could do it that way, but it probably makes more sense to have it exist within the archive infrastructure also11:28
mdzI assume that you test in staging, and then move exactly the same binaries over when you're satisfied?11:28
mdzthis is a facility that we would like to have anyway, in order to test security updates before rolling them out11:28
JohnDongmdz: ok, awesome11:28
Nafallomdz++11:28
siretart.oO( setting up britney from dak for backports? ohoh... )11:28
mdzbut let me say, that we don't have it yet :-)11:28
ogramdz, wouldnt be necessary the MOTU way, but i'll shut up about MOTU now11:28
JohnDongmdz: I just move binaries, too :)11:28
Amaranthdoesn't elmo need to approve some of this stuff?11:28
mdzogra: how do you mean?11:28
ogramdz, three reviews11:29
Kamionogra: reviews aren't perfect11:29
mdzAmaranth: elmo has been consulted11:29
JohnDong**puts ogra on a list with Gentoo mods....11:29
makomdz: what's the timeline for that functionality?11:29
ograKamion, but better then nothing11:29
Kamionogra: I've reviewed a lot of stuff, and I know I miss stuff too often even so. Testing is better than reviews.11:29
Amaranthogra: but not better than -staging11:29
ograJohnDong, dont do that ;)11:29
mdzmako: the outline that I've described, getting hoary-backports set up, should be less than a week's work11:29
mdzstaging is a bigger project that I haven't really thought enough about yet11:29
makomdz: including building the functionality to do the staging area?11:30
makoJohnDong: are you happy doing a hack for the staging stuff in the meantime?11:30
mdzmako: that requires some consultation with people who are not here11:30
JohnDongmako: sure :)11:30
JohnDongDoes this mean Breezy will ship with hoary-backports lines commented out, just like how universe is shipped?11:30
makoalright.. seems reasonable11:30
mdzbut I think it is the right idea for us to integrate the staging functionality as well, because it is useful beyond just backports11:30
\shjohndong: staging implies only install issues with the packages or also functionality issues of the backported software?11:30
JohnDongThat way, Synaptic will have a checkbox11:30
mdzJohnDong: that sounds reasonable11:31
JohnDongsh: it can be either11:31
makoJohnDong: sure, seems possible11:31
JohnDongYAY11:31
Amaranth\sh: functionality11:31
LarstiQdoes hoary-backports make sense for breezy?11:31
JohnDongit can be either... sometimes renames cause packaging issues11:31
mdzin fact we might decide that hoary-updates should be identical to backports, though that's less clear11:31
AmaranthLarstiQ: obviously it'd be breezy11:31
makoLarstiQ: no11:31
mdzit would certainly need to change from opt-out to opt-in11:31
LarstiQright, just checking11:31
makoLarstiQ: i mean, we're talking about packages that are already in breezy :)11:32
mdzbut I don't think we need quite all of -security, -updates, -backports and -backports-staging11:32
JohnDongmdz: awesome :)11:32
mdzthere is a lot of overlap there11:32
LarstiQmako: I could see a use, but yes :)11:32
mdzand it would be a lot to maintain11:32
JohnDongmdz: correct. -updates is barely used at all...11:32
JohnDongmdz: maybe like the Fedora and Extras model?11:32
Kamiondoes seem kind of overkill for a default install11:32
mdzJohnDong: I'm not very familiar with that11:32
KamionJohnDong: when -updates is needed, it's needed, though11:32
mdzKamion: especially given that timeout bug ;-)11:32
JohnDongmdz: Fedora maintains a core updates repo, and Extras is like a Backports11:32
Kamionmdz: yeah ...11:32
JohnDongso it's like having all 4 repos there.... :(11:33
mdzKamion: could you file that in bugzilla for mvo if you haven't already?11:33
JohnDongmdz: I don't think there's "overlap", but just bad naming11:33
mdzJohnDong: well, I think we should do some thinking about how many different use cases there really are11:33
JohnDongmdz: 'hoary-updates' can be renamed to mean more of major bugfixes11:33
Kamionmdz: he's cced on the relevant bug, and I've included an explanation11:33
mdzhow many people really want security but NOT critical bugfixes, for example11:33
Kamionmdz: (I'm going to work around it, so it's still assigned to me)11:33
mdzKamion: ok, my bugzilla-fu is way behind these days11:33
elmomdz: me :P11:33
JohnDongmdz: I don't know, lol :). hoary-updates isn't even that well publicized11:34
KamionI think people want to be able to distinguish between security and critical bugfixes, rather than having them all jammed together11:34
makoalright.. lets move on :)11:34
mdzelmo: oh, hello ;-)11:34
Kamionbecause the criteria for the latter is a lot less well-defined11:34
ogramdz, so how do we sort the missing gpg key issues, the backports guys need a valid gpg key or not ?11:34
mdzelmo: how do you feel about having 5 suites for each release, though?11:34
JohnDongmdz: won't Ubuntu provide a signing key? like how hoary-* is handled11:34
ograJohnDong, you need to sign the source11:34
makoJohnDong: you will need a key to upload11:35
JohnDongogra: aha, I see11:35
mdzelmo: do you have any initial ideas about the best way to implement some sort of staging facility?11:35
ograJohnDong, with your own key11:35
=== Amaranth has a feeling this whole things will stall on keysigning
elmomdz: it's kind of unfortunate in that, per-suite mirroring is annoying (i.e. can't be done with just rsync)11:35
mdzJohnDong: yes11:35
JohnDongmako: I'll work on trying to keep a gpg key :)11:35
elmowould it be 14Gb for us too?  if so, that's not an insubstantial hit11:35
ograAmaranth, thats why i brought it up11:35
mdzelmo: we're expecting these suites to be quite small11:35
makoJohnDong: create one, sign with someone in the strongly connected set, it should be no problem11:35
JohnDongelmo: no!11:35
mdzhoary-backports/i386 is ~250M currently11:35
JohnDongelmo: the actual binaries are small11:35
elmo(where did the 14Gb figure come from?)11:35
mdzelmo: of course, we'd need to copy the source as well11:35
AmaranthJohnDong: where do you live?11:36
JohnDongelmo: Subversion metadata11:36
=== \sh 's changing servers...lagging
JohnDongAmaranth: Michigan11:36
Amaranthcity?11:36
makosubversion!11:36
mdzelmo: and also that figure includes warty backports11:36
elmoJohnDong: bong11:36
KamionAmaranth: even an unsigned key is better than no key at all, although it's still not good11:36
JohnDongmako: we're currently using subversion11:36
=== \sh [~shermann@xdsl-84-44-198-129.netcologne.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
makoJohnDong: ok11:36
Amaranthif an unsigned key works for the backports i can work on them :D11:36
KamionAmaranth: at least you can tell that this set of uploads are all by the same person11:36
elmomdz: if it's small, then I don't have any real/valid objections11:36
elmofrom an archive/mirror POV11:36
makoif you don't have a signed key, talk to me about getting it signed11:36
elmomako: will-sign-keys-for-food?11:37
KamionI'm not sure if we'll be accepting unsigned keys, though; TBH I hope not, I want signed-key verification of anything an unsigned key does ...11:37
makoafter the meeting11:37
makoi don't think we will either11:37
mdzgetting your key signed is not that hard11:37
makowhich is why you should talk to me abou getting it signed11:37
JohnDongmako: talk about keys via e-mail?11:37
mdzand it's a good excuse to meet people11:37
Amaranthmdz: sure it is11:37
makoJohnDong: yes11:37
ograhehe11:37
makoso..11:37
mdzAmaranth: we already have a facility in place for people who can't arrange a face-to-face meeting11:37
JohnDongmdz: I'm a junior in high school... not too much travel goes by me :)11:37
makosince we've passed teh two hour mark11:37
makolets try to wrap this up11:38
makomdz: do you have more impelementation details you want to go over?11:38
Amaranthmdz: i have no one who can sign me within 100 miles and i have no transportation11:38
makoAmaranth: then talk to me after the meeting11:38
Amaranthmako: ok11:38
makoplease, lets no talk about keys right now11:38
JohnDonglol11:38
ogramako travels for keys ;)11:38
JohnDongwho's gonna update the wiki page with our progress?11:38
=== Nafallo will get signed in july ;-)
mdzmako: no, I think that's too much already11:38
makoJohnDong: kassetra 11:38
makook then11:39
JohnDongok11:39
makoANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS11:39
JohnDongkey signing?11:39
makoproposals, things of that sort11:39
JohnDongj/k :)11:39
=== mako thwaps JohnDong
ograheh11:39
JohnDonglol11:39
\shok...we will make backports official11:39
RyantroyAll I have to leave..  this meeting looks to be going well.. thanks all..11:39
makoRyantroy: cool thanks for showing up11:39
makoJohnDong: you know what is going to be problematic11:39
=== philipacamaniac would like to raise the issue of other popular 3rd party backports (such as KDE 3.4.1 Hoary packages at kubuntu.org)
makoJohnDong: in terms of libs, etc11:39
ograRyantroy, all of them go well ;)11:39
Ryantroymako: always! I wish i had more time in the day :) 11:39
ograRyantroy, at least in ubuntu ;)11:39
makoJohnDong: i think if you run those things by people in #u-devel to ask for advice, etc11:40
makoJohnDong: it might be good11:40
makoJohnDong: i apologize that it's not been ultra welcoming in the past but you know moe people now11:40
makoJohnDong: and i suspect it will be better11:40
siretartwill hoary-backports become a new upload target? Who will be allowed to upload there?11:40
JohnDongmako: thanks. I'll consult you guys much more than before :)11:40
\shphilipacamaniac: as I understand it, it applies to all packages in ubuntu warty/hoary/etc.11:40
=== mdz [~mdz@ca-studio-bsr1o-251.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Client]
=== mdz [~mdz@ca-studio-bsr1o-251.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
makoman, that mdz guy was annoying11:41
mdzJohnDong: it will get a lot easier to work with the deveolper community when this stuff is official, I expect11:41
makooh wait.. he's back11:41
mdzvisibility helps a lot11:41
JohnDongmdz: thanks :)11:41
mdztaonheutnsao xchat and its keyboard shortcuts11:41
JohnDonglol11:41
kassetra*snicker*11:41
philipacamaniac\sh: but KDE is such a big metapackage - it couldn't possibly be "officially" backported, could it?11:41
ogramdz, get rid of dvorak ;)11:41
mdzogra: that's unrelated :-P11:41
JohnDongumm, I don't plan to backport KDE...11:41
\shphilipacamaniac: riddell took the same sources as in breezy 11:41
makook11:42
JohnDongthat's just as unholy as doing so with GNOME 11:42
JohnDonglol11:42
ograJohnDong, to late11:42
JohnDong:)11:42
makobefore we end11:42
\shJohnDong: no..this is what the people want11:42
ograJohnDong, now aou have _all_ backports11:42
makoJohnDong: want to take a look at the "When to backport, when not to" list 11:42
makoand short of "don't do backports to main" do you have any other objectsions?11:42
makoor does that list looks like a good set of rules to on11:42
JohnDong*looking*11:42
=== Amaranth doesn't agree with 'don't do backports to main'
makoin situations where you think you might be crossing one of those lines or need to, talking to the rest of the team will be helpful11:43
JohnDongwhere is this list?11:43
makoAmaranth: we've established that this was not realistic11:43
JohnDongam I being blind here?11:43
makoJohnDong: on the agenda11:43
\shmako: talking about "main"...so, there r no official backports for main, or only != libs*11:43
Amaranthmako: ok, just making sure11:43
\-but what about pakages that are not in breezy and that the comunity would like to have packaged? wil those eventually be added to breezy first and then be backported?11:43
JohnDongI see it11:43
\sh\-: to universe first.11:43
mako\-: yes11:43
\sh\-: for those packages we have policies11:43
JohnDongok, I'm fine with it11:43
JohnDongminus the part about main, of course!11:43
ogra\-, please leave them to MOTU11:43
JohnDonglol11:43
mako\-: no reason we can't do that.. if it's not in breezy, it can't be backported11:43
mdz\-: yes, absolutely11:44
kassetraother than the main/backport moratorium.11:44
makoand if shouldn't even be in multiverse, you shouldn't install it :)11:44
ogra\-, but no objections on backporting them later ;)11:44
makoogra: yes11:44
mdzif people working on backports are interested in adding new stuff as well, they should absolutely join MOTU11:44
JohnDongyeah11:44
makoJohnDong: excllent11:44
JohnDongbackports will definitely pull on MOTU work :)11:44
mdzI'm sure ogra won't argue with that ;-)11:44
JohnDonglol11:44
makoANY OTHER BUSINESS?11:44
ograyep :)11:44
JohnDongwe gotta make ogra happy11:44
JohnDonglol11:44
mako....11:44
ograyay11:44
dholbach:)11:44
\-ogra, i would be all for it, if only universe would not be freezed11:44
makohave we sufficiently killed this issue?11:45
siretartsorry if I got something wrong, but will hoary-backports become a new upload target? Who will be allowed to upload there?11:45
Nafallodholbach, ogra: congrats ;-)11:45
kassetramako: killed, and then grilled it.11:45
ogra\-, why  you can backport ;)11:45
dholbachuniverse freezed?11:45
makoKILLED GRILLED... GOING ONCE11:45
mdzsiretart: we will have that capability, but we should discuss how and when it should be used11:45
JohnDongkeys....11:45
makoGOING TWICE11:45
makoJohnDong: FU11:45
JohnDongkeys....11:45
JohnDonglol11:45
JohnDongLOL11:45
Mezlol11:45
kassetraLMFAO11:45
makothis meeting is declared over half an hour ago11:45
mako:)11:45
mdzmako: one more thing11:45
ograkassetra, F ?11:45
makodamnit11:45
makomdz: 11:45
JohnDonglol11:45
mdzseriously11:45
makomdz: ok go11:45
mdzUbuntu membership11:46
siretartmdz: in this or an later meeting?11:46
makoright11:46
mdzdid we already talk about that?11:46
makomdz: we solved half of this problem already11:46
kassetraogra: my F'ing tushie off.11:46
\shno11:46
makoJohnDong and kassetra are already members so is ryan11:46
ograkassetra, *g*11:46
mdzmako: oh, I didn't realize11:46
JohnDong:)11:46
Amaranththey are?11:46
mdzexcellent :-)11:46
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makolast meeting11:46
JohnDongBTW, that member list on the wiki needs a bit of updating :)11:46
makoi didn't send the minutes yet :)11:46
makoso that's partially my fault11:46
kassetraheh.11:46
Amaranththat just leaves me then, sitting as potential backporter/motuer for 6 months now11:46
mdzanyone who is working on backports should obviously become an Ubuntu member11:46
makoyes, absolutely11:47
makoand they need to get their keys signed11:47
mdzthat's about all I wanted to say11:47
dholbachare they on UbuntuMembers yet?11:47
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=== mako holds his mouth
sabdflwow11:47
makoOVER11:47
JohnDongamd64 arch11:47
JohnDongoh well, we'll talk later11:47
makoalright.. thanks for showing up everybody11:47
mdkehows the meeting going?11:47
kassetramako: mine *is* signed!  :)11:47
mdkeomg finished surely not11:47
mdzmdke: over :-)11:47
makoi think this went longer and more successfully than i suspected11:47
dholbachthanks mako11:47
JohnDongyeah11:47
mdkecool11:47
dholbachabsolutely11:47
mdzthanks to everyone who participated11:47
makokassetra: thank you SO MUCH for helping write this up11:47
JohnDonggreat job conducting the meeting, mako11:47
ograJohnDong, you can do amd64 on the buildds ;)11:47
makokassetra:  i can help go over this11:47
KinnisonWill there be a summary posted somewhere?11:47
JohnDongogra: yeah, I remembered that :)11:47
mdzKinnison: yes11:48
makoKinnison: yes.. kassetra will send it -news :)11:48
NafalloJohnDong: you should let ogra brief you on the buildingsystem ;-)11:48
KinnisonI guess I should sub to -news11:48
makothanks everybody11:48
Kinnisonor could someone fwd it to me when it happens11:48
ograNafallo, but not tonight anymore ;)11:48
makoKinnison: subscribe11:48
mako:)11:48
makook.. i'm going to the park11:48
Amaranthhey!11:48
Nafalloogra: baah, don't act so lazy ;-)11:48
JohnDongawesome11:48
makobut i will talk about keys AFTER the park11:48
Amaranthmako: what about the key thing?11:48
ajmitchbye mako :)11:48
JohnDongwe'lll all be in contact :)11:48
Amaranthok11:48
Amaranthping me11:48
Amaranthi need to go clean house a bit anyway11:48
ograNafallo, its 23:47 here ....11:48
makoAmaranth: will do11:49
Nafallomako: what keys? ;-)11:49
Nafalloogra: we're in the same timezone ;-)11:49
mdkemako, yeah ping me too on the keys when you are back11:49
=== mako takes to the keys to his appartment and leaves
JohnDongis he gone yet?11:49
JohnDonghmm11:49
ograJohnDong, you find me in #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-motu, nearly every day11:49
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JohnDongnow to talk behind his back...11:49
JohnDonglol11:49
mdkeJohnDong, ogra is on irc 24 hours a day11:49
JohnDongogra: sure; we'll be in contact11:49
mdkeJohnDong, sometimes more11:49
NafalloJohnDong: and night ;-) (finding ogra)11:50
ograyep, great :)11:50
kassetraok, I will be summarizing later tonight, after my regular work day is over.11:50
JohnDongk11:50
ajmitchhe's always recruiting, so if you ever reconsider MOTU... :)11:50
JohnDongLOL11:50
ograJohnDong, and ogra@ubuntu.com :)11:50
JohnDongalright, I gotta leave too11:51
JohnDonggreat seeing everyone11:51
ograyep :=11:51
ogra:)11:51
kassetraman.  I have a bunch of work to do now.11:55
mdkekassetra, maybe you can delegate a bit?11:55
kassetraLOL no, I meant to summarize this meeting.  :)11:55
mdkeme too11:56
kassetraLOL well, if you have any suggestions, I'm all ears.11:56
mdkehmm11:56
mdkewell if you can't find anyone to help, then just take as much time as you need11:56
kassetrak.  :)11:57
mdkeit doesn't have to be done for tomorrow11:57
kassetraoh... that's a relief.11:57
kassetraI will get it soon, but I have my regular job meetings for today too.11:57
mdkekassetra, LOL people can't force you to do stuff you haven't got time to do11:57
kassetraLMFAO11:57
kassetraI know.  I just wanted to be a good reporter.  :)11:57
\-thanks kassetra for summarizing all this stuff.11:58
mdkeyou'll find that people will appreciate whatever you do11:58
mdkeor they should anyhow11:58
kassetraLOL well, it's my first time doing this for this meeting, but I shouldn't be too terribly bad at it.11:59
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=== {Seb} [~{Seb}@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
{Seb}hi all12:02
{Seb}what happeneded in the backports meeting?12:02
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dholbachthere will be a wrapup on ubuntu-news <at> lists.ubuntu.org12:02
{Seb}can you basically tell me what happened?12:02
kassetrabackports is going to be officially folded into the development community.  :)12:03
{Seb}good good12:03
{Seb}and?12:03
mdke{Seb}, you can find the log at people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs12:03
{Seb}ok12:03

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