[01:36] <mkde> anyone around?
[01:36] <Liz> i just got here
[01:37] <mkde> hi there liz
[01:37] <Liz> greetings
[01:37] <Liz> its been a while since i was in here
[01:39] <mkde> i was just reading seans email
[01:47] <Liz> which one?
[01:48] <mkde> i guess you must have moderated it through just now
[01:48] <Liz> yes i did
[01:48] <Liz> there were a few
[01:48] <Liz> tell me ..do you add them to the ban list when you reject them?
[01:48] <mkde> no
[01:49] <Liz> im asking cause this is the first time ive moderated a mailing list
[01:49] <Liz> and im not sure if im doing it right
[01:49] <mkde> they just get a message telling them that non members can't post to the list
[01:49] <mkde> i always tend to discard spam
[01:49] <mkde> dunno if thats right tho
[01:49] <Liz> heh
[01:49] <Liz> i was rejecting them and adding them to the ban list
[01:49] <mkde> not a bad idea
[01:50] <Liz> but for spam...discard and ban might be the way to go
[01:51] <Liz> should be a wiki i guess about moderating mailing lists
[01:51] <mkde> i'm sure there is some documentation around
[02:03] <Liz> we seem to have documentation for everything on ubuntu
[02:03] <mkde> sometimes the mailman software explains some of the features quite nicely
[02:03] <Liz> cept how to moderate a list
[02:03] <Liz> its a bad thing for me
[02:04] <mkde> no sweat
[02:04] <Liz> i dont read the documentations
[02:04] <Liz> unless im truely stuck on something
[02:04] <mkde> i know what you mean
[02:08] <mkde> i gtg to bed
[02:08] <mkde> good night
[05:03] <jsgotangco> morning
[05:03] <swe3tdave> night.. ;)
[05:04] <jsgotangco> doh
[05:04] <jsgotangco> carthik, hello bored student :)
[05:04] <carthik> hey jsgotangco :)
[05:05] <jsgotangco> so you're looking for something to do
[05:05] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[05:05] <carthik> phonecall :|
[05:05] <jsgotangco> ok
[05:06] <carthik> jsgotangco, yes, I was in fact looking at the various wiki pages now
[05:07] <carthik> andreading through the "about ubuntu" preview picking holes in the document
[05:07] <carthik> but finding faults may not be the best way to introduce myself, I guess.
[05:08] <jsgotangco> no its ok, just dive in, thats the FOSS way
[05:08] <carthik> jsgotangco, if there is something you have in mind that I could do, I'd be glad to know of it :)
[05:08] <jsgotangco> nobody's stopping you from grabbing what you'd like to contribute
[05:08] <carthik> so do I file a seperate bug report for each spello/typo or just one grand unified bug report?
[05:08] <jsgotangco> on the wiki?
[05:08] <jsgotangco> or on the svn repos
[05:09] <carthik> the problem with the one big bug report might be that some folks might agree to some of the changes I suggest and not some others...
[05:09] <carthik> Am I not supposed to make bug-reports at bugzilla?
[05:10] <carthik> I was reading through the quickguide preview : http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/
[05:10] <jsgotangco> no bugzilla is fine
[05:10] <jsgotangco> hmm
[05:10] <jsgotangco> you can get the actual xml docs from svn
[05:10] <carthik> I am familiar with svn
[05:10] <carthik> but should I generate diffs after every change
[05:11] <carthik> cause obviously all my changes may not be seen as required or acceptable :)
[05:11] <jsgotangco> yes then submit to the list and ill patch it or whoever gets it
[05:11] <carthik> oh, okay
[05:11] <carthik> a unified diff, then :)
[05:11] <jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[05:11] <jsgotangco> would be much better if you patch per doc instead of a grand patch
[05:12] <carthik> Okay, I will read that doc again before I do anything
[05:12] <jsgotangco> svg artworks also welcome
[05:13] <carthik> patch per doc == patch per book, right, for the quickguide ?
[05:13] <jsgotangco> right its much easier
[05:14] <carthik> okay cool :)
[05:17] <carthik> thanks jsgotangco. I'll email the list when I am done.
[05:19] <jsgotangco> just email the diff and i'll grab it or probably sean
[06:10] <carthik> today is the day I start working for the ubuntu doc team :)
[06:10] <jsgotangco> welcome aboard, we're a small crew but deliver big stuff
[06:10] <jsgotangco> now i go to lunch
[06:10] <jsgotangco> :)
[06:10] <jsgotangco> brb
[06:10] <carthik> oops, that was meant for my friends. Nevermind :)
[06:11] <jsgotangco> heh
[06:11] <jsgotangco> :)
[07:10] <carthik> err, quickguide is not at ubuntu-docs/quick-guide/ - there is a ubuntu-docs/gnome/quick-guide which does not quite appear to be the same as the one in the preview at http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/ -- what am I missing here?
[07:25] <jsgotangco> the one in mako's shell is probably old
[07:25] <jsgotangco> current work is in svn
[07:30] <carthik> jsgotangco, could you please tell me how to make the svn version
[07:30] <carthik> I hope /gnome/quickguide/C/quick-guide.xml is the right file, too
[07:31] <jsgotangco> first things first
[07:31] <jsgotangco> 1.) did you download the docs from svn?
[07:31] <carthik> yes
[07:32] <jsgotangco> ok great now what's the problem then, the svn version is the most recent
[07:36] <carthik> jsgotangco, how would I create an html version locally? (I'm sorry if that is a dumb question)
[07:36] <carthik> make qg doesnt work
[07:37] <jsgotangco> umm what are you trying to do?
[07:38] <carthik> I am trying to create a readable vhtml version of the checked out quick guide
[07:39] <carthik> reading and editing the xml file directly is bound to be more difficult for me
[07:39] <jsgotangco> ok here's a tip you can open the xml file in yelp
[07:39] <jsgotangco> you can edit the xml file in bluefish which is better
[07:40] <carthik> okay, but how can i see the html version, if at all
[07:40] <carthik> just to make sure, as the step-by-step guide says I must
[07:41] <venda> African Greetings
[07:48] <jsg> gyah
[08:00] <jsgotangco> sorry about that :)
[08:03] <carthik> maybe I started off with the wrong doc :) the quick-guide seems to have been written for 5.04, and I guess will be edited next before the next release....
[08:04] <carthik> I saw an erroneous "5.40" somewhere and so thought I'd proof it...
[08:04] <carthik> again, that was from the preview...
[08:05] <robitaille> jsgotangco,  BeerDump??? 
[08:06] <jsgotangco> yeah hehe instead of Brain Dump in a BOF, i'd rather drink Beer
[08:06] <jsgotangco> carthik, just check what's in svn that's the latest always
[08:08] <venda> carthik: previews are outdated at present they should move to docteam.ubuntu.com shortly
[08:08] <venda> you should checkout svn src and hack that
[08:08] <jsgotangco> ahhh there's the expert
[08:08] <jsgotangco> venda, hello
[08:08] <venda> jsgotangco: hi
[08:09] <jsgotangco> venda, ill upload something in artwork and check it out
[08:09] <venda> carthik: we want to upgrade Ubuntu quick-guide for 5.10
[08:09] <venda> cool
[08:09] <venda> ideas welcome
[08:09] <venda> carthik: the problem with that book is that you do not have a stable system on which to document yet
[08:10] <venda> unless you dont mind your system breaking
[08:10] <venda> breezy is still very much under heavy devel
[08:10] <carthik> venda, that is cool - I will go through and fix some non-software specific things...
[08:10] <carthik> hopefully :)
[08:10] <jsgotangco> venda, committed, svn up pls
[08:10] <venda> carthik: sure, improvement welcome
[08:11] <jsgotangco> and check it now
[08:11] <jsgotangco> hehe
[08:11] <jsgotangco> :)
[08:11] <jsgotangco> its the best thing i can do for 2 days
[08:11] <venda> carthik: there are also other docs you can work on if you feel like it
[08:11] <jsgotangco> (i dont really know how to use inkscape
[08:12] <carthik> venda, is there one that could better use my time right now?
[08:12] <jsgotangco> you can help mdke on the wiki
[08:13] <mvirkkil> Is Henrik Nielsen Omma ever here?
[08:13] <venda> mvirkkil: over where?
[08:14] <jsgotangco> i dont think henrik chats
[08:14] <venda> carthik: well you can take a small section on any book and work on it
[08:14] <carthik> jsgotangco, is there a wiki-todo somewhere, or some tasks?
[08:14] <venda> carthik: mdke is working on the user guide
[08:14] <carthik> venda, cool
[08:14] <venda> carthik: I know there are a few blank sections that coul duse love
[08:15] <mvirkkil> venda: In irc
[08:15] <venda> just take someting small somethng you can do
[08:15] <venda> mvirkkil: I have not seen him on irc
[08:15] <mvirkkil> venda: Me neither.
[08:18] <robitaille> which application is a good to display svg? It seems my nautilus tries to display them using Firefox... and that's does work.
[08:19] <robitaille> s/does/doesn't/
[08:20] <jsgotangco> inkscape
[08:20] <jsgotangco> yeah its pretty dumb
[08:20] <jsgotangco> but i think EoG should also open SVG
[08:20] <jsgotangco> inkscape creates the svg
[08:21] <carthik> venda, I'm sorry if I am annoying or something :) but I can't find userguide or user-guide or any such anywhere in the tree i checked out...
[08:21] <venda> robitaille: sudo apt-get install inkscape
[08:21] <jsgotangco> carthik,  /ubuntu-docs/gnome/userguide
[08:22] <jsgotangco> ok ubuntu-docs is my own dir
[08:22] <venda> carthik: no problem see gnome/
[08:22] <jsgotangco> so its just /gnome/userguide
[08:22] <robitaille> just tried eog on svg;  it works, but the results are not that great looking.  I'll have to install inkscape.
[08:22] <venda> carthik: there are no stupid questions
[08:22] <jsgotangco> venda, just stupid answers?
[08:22] <carthik> jsgotangco, venda, thanks a lot.
[08:23] <jsgotangco> np just ask away
[08:23] <venda> robitaille: I think once inkscape is installed then naut will use it as plugin
[08:23] <carthik> venda, i'v been bugging jsgotangco for quite a while now :)
[08:23] <jsgotangco> we all start from something
[08:23] <venda> he he he needs it
[08:23] <jsgotangco> venda, did you see the artwork?
[08:24] <robitaille> venda,   I didn't have inkscape installed  but nautilus was still displaying a preview of the svg's...but there was no way of opening them.
[08:25] <venda> jsgotangco: what did you think the hug was for ;-)
[08:25] <jsgotangco> robitaille, i think its a bug that Burgandavia has already filed
[08:25] <jsgotangco> i didnt see that hug
[08:25] <venda> robitaille: inkscape dude install
[08:25] <jsgotangco> i hope you were already dressed
[08:25] <venda> no
[08:25] <venda> jsgotangco: but there is an image missing
[08:26] <carthik> shouldn't gimp be able to open svg files?
[08:26] <venda> best to do everything in svg
[08:26] <venda> carthik: no
[08:26] <carthik> I see
[08:26] <jsgotangco> venda, yes since its svg, it references to a png file which i didnt upload
[08:26] <venda> vector /= raster
[08:26] <robitaille> just installed inkscape...  now I can see the svg properly.
[08:26] <venda> can you redraw the png
[08:26] <venda> robitaille: :-)
[08:27] <jsgotangco> venda, screenshot
[08:27] <venda> ok upload the screen shot dude
[08:27] <jsgotangco> venda, i am trying to figure out how to publish it as pdf without going thru scribus
[08:27] <jsgotangco> because the svg filter of scribus plain sucks
[08:27] <venda> jsgotangco: export as png 300dpi
[08:27] <jsgotangco> then?
[08:28] <venda> open in gimp -- flatten image
[08:28] <venda> export as pdf if gimp supports
[08:28] <jsgotangco> ok let me try that in another file
[08:28] <venda> otherwise import to OOo w
[08:28] <venda> OOo 2.0 supports the whole svg
[08:29] <venda> that may be quicker
[08:29] <jsgotangco> its the best i can do with so little time
[08:29] <venda> its a start
[08:29] <venda> better than nothing I say
[08:29] <jsgotangco> it looks good for a start though
[08:29] <venda> brilliant
[08:30] <jsgotangco> let me mess it up first then ill upload the png as well
[08:30] <venda> even my posters are not a picaso
[08:30] <venda> but they are a start
[08:30] <venda> I am not much of a graphics person
[08:30] <jsgotangco> same here, i have a good eye for colors though
[08:35] <jsgotangco> on my lord it looks awesome as pdf
[08:36] <venda> Cool
[08:36] <venda> what process did you use?
[08:36] <jsgotangco> OOo
[08:36] <venda> 2.0
[08:36] <jsgotangco> the font is kinda messed up
[08:36] <jsgotangco> ah
[08:37] <venda> who is the cute 3 year old
[08:37] <jsgotangco> umm that's my daughter
[08:37] <venda> she wil be a real looker when she is older
[08:37] <jsgotangco> you think so, i think she got the features from my wife
[08:37] <venda> you gonna have lots of trouble on your hands
[08:37] <venda> well you wife is WOW too
[08:38] <venda> lucky man
[08:38] <venda> your daught is very photogenic
[08:39] <jsgotangco> yeah i have some pics in RAW but i have yet to send it to the studio
[08:39] <jsgotangco> i have this nice Nikon dslr i bought last christmas
[08:39] <venda> All the green in the pictures reminds me of Durban
[08:39] <venda> east coast
[08:39] <venda> also hot and warm there
[08:39] <venda> so everything is green all year
[08:40] <venda> up here in johannesburg everythng turns brown around this time of year
[08:40] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:40] <jsgotangco> "flickr is having a massage"
[08:40] <jsgotangco> i guess its down for maintenance now
[08:40] <venda> yes I saw them yesterday
[08:41] <venda> Oh well time to get dressed I guess
[08:42] <jsgotangco> no even when you're sleeping i imagine you in a suit
[08:42] <venda> oh dear, I am getting a bad reputation
[08:43] <venda> if it helps, I am sitting here in a pair of long jamas and a jersey
[08:43] <jsgotangco> i hope you dont have a baseball cap worn in reverse with some gold chains and stuff around your neck
[08:43] <venda> big coffee on one side and my laptop on my knees to keep me warm
[08:44] <venda> no those are next to my bed :-)
[08:44] <venda> jolly good show, what, what?
[08:45] <jsgotangco> a question first
[08:45] <jsgotangco> what's html.sh for
[08:45] <venda> mmm
[08:46] <venda> not working yet
[08:46] <venda> part of build sys
[08:46] <jeffsch> carthik: you can work on style guide :-)
[08:46] <venda> it was supposed to be the driver script to make html
[08:47] <jsgotangco> venda, it doesn't work
[08:47] <venda> no, not ready yet
[08:47] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, hi
[08:47] <venda> jeffsch: hi
[08:47] <jeffsch> hi
[08:47] <venda> ok I is off
[08:47] <carthik> jeffsch, erm, I am happy to have found the userguide that venda and jsgotangco pointed out, but should I lose interest, i will certainly look at the style guide
[08:48] <venda> carthik: do what you want to do and have fun
[08:48] <jeffsch> you can read the makefile in the stylguide folder to see how to generate html and pdf
[08:48] <carthik> venda, sounds like a plan :)
[08:48] <venda> jeffsch: why tldp project
[08:48] <jsgotangco> carthik, that's how we work here
[08:49] <jeffsch> umm errr, I tried the tldp stylesheets out
[08:49] <jeffsch> I liked the layout of their html
[08:49] <jeffsch> I didn't remove it from the makefile, just commented it out
[08:50] <venda> jeffsch: no that is fine, just wondered
[08:50] <venda> Ok now I is zero ca ya
[08:50] <jsgotangco> errmm
[08:50] <jsgotangco> how do you use this script
[08:51] <froud-away> jsgotangco: you dont until we're finsihed
[08:51] <jeffsch> cd to the styleguide folder, then type make html
[08:51] <jeffsch> or "make pdf"
[08:52] <jsgotangco> xmllint --dtdvalid /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/docbookx.dtd --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid styleguide.xml
[08:52] <jsgotangco> xsltproc -o styleguide.fo udp-pdf.xslt styleguide.xml
[08:52] <jsgotangco> Making portrait pages on USletter paper (8.5inx11in)
[08:52] <jsgotangco> fop.sh -fo styleguide.fo -pdf styleguide.pdf
[08:52] <jsgotangco> make: fop.sh: Command not found
[08:52] <jsgotangco> make: *** [pdf]  Error 127
[08:52] <jeffsch> hmmm... you don't have apache xml tools installed
[08:53] <jeffsch> I can't remember offhand the package
[08:53] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:53] <jeffsch> i will find out
[08:53] <jeffsch> you can still make the html though
[08:54] <jsgotangco> yeah html works
[08:54] <carthik> libapache-modxslt ?
[08:54] <carthik> or libapache2-modxslt....
[08:55] <jsgotangco> most likely 2
[08:57] <jeffsch> hmmm... no, i think those are for web server... I don't have either one installed
[08:59] <carthik> ant , ant-doc perhaps? (A system independent build tool that uses XML files as "Makefiles")
[09:00] <jeffsch> is there some way of searching packages to see if fop-0.20.5 is in one of them?
[09:04] <carthik> searching for "docbook pdf" gets me to docbook-utils
[09:05] <froud> carthik: you need an xsl-fo processor
[09:05] <froud> so you use saxon and then create xsl:fo > Apache FOP
[09:05] <froud> > PDF
[09:05] <froud> > PS
[09:05] <froud> > RTF
[09:05] <froud> etc
[09:06] <froud> carthik: I like ant
[09:06] <froud> but java is a regilious topic here so we stay wil the make wrinkles
[09:06] <carthik> xmlto package then, perhaps
[09:07] <carthik> the urge to install all lib* packages comes back every now and then :)
[09:07] <froud> carthik: if you like
[09:07] <froud> I just use saxon and xalan
[09:07] <froud> build system ant
[09:07] <jeffsch> froud: do you know which package has fop.sh?
[09:07] <froud> Apache fop
[09:07] <froud> download it form Apache
[09:08] <jeffsch> ahhh... so that's how I got it
[09:08] <froud> here is my classpath
[09:08] <froud> CLASSPATH="/usr/share/saxon-6.5.3/saxon.jar:/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/exte
[09:08] <froud> nsions/saxon65.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/build/fop.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/batik.
[09:08] <froud> jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xalan-2.4.1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xercesImpl-2.2.
[09:08] <froud> 1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/JimiProClasses.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/avalon-fra
[09:08] <froud> mework-cvs-20020806.jar"
[09:08] <froud> export CLASSPATH
[09:08] <jeffsch> http://gulus.usherbrooke.ca/pub/appl/apache/xml/fop/
[09:10] <froud> yes or just go to http://xml.apache.org/fop/ and click download to get your closest mirror
[09:10] <froud> notice when using saxon
[09:10] <jsgotangco> froud, the pdf only looks good when press optimized
[09:10] <froud> you can use the jar extension for db
[09:10] <froud> jsgotangco: it will
[09:11] <jsgotangco> lower than that, it sucks
[09:11] <froud> screen is not good for print
[09:11] <froud> for those who want to render png files in pdf note /usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/JimiProClasses.jar
[09:12] <froud> Download jimmi from sun or install jai'
[09:12] <froud> jia
[09:12] <froud> /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/exte
[09:12] <froud> [08:54]  <froud> nsions/saxon65.jar
[09:12] <froud> If you want extensions for formating in fo see 
[09:12] <froud> oops
[09:13] <froud> this path /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/extensions/saxon65.jar
[09:13] <froud> with saxon you ha ethe best control
[09:14] <froud> you can use dbfo proc intructs in the xml src to define things otherwise not possible
[09:14] <froud> well that's me for today
[09:14] <froud> later dude
[09:17] <jeffsch> me go too. bye.
[09:27] <jsgotangco> jdub, when you're free, can you probably review the flyer in svn so that it can be at least used by the LugRadioLive people
[09:29] <robitaille> jsgotangco,  what's the path in svn to the flyer?
[09:29] <jsgotangco> robitaille, artwork :)
[09:30] <robitaille> oh.. which one?  ubuntu-brochure?
[09:30] <jsgotangco> ubuntu_conferece_brocher_A4.svg
[09:30] <jsgotangco> svn up if you still dont have it
[09:32] <robitaille> got it. that's the  one the broken png image.  I was testing my newly-instal inkscape earlier on it
[09:33] <jsgotangco> svn up again, i uplodaed the png
[09:33] <robitaille> "firefox 1.04"...isn't that a bit misleading? 
[09:33] <jsgotangco> robitaille, i know that's why it should be edited :)
[09:34] <jsgotangco> i mean reviewed
[09:34] <jsgotangco> i could have just put dolor sit amet, etc.
[09:34] <jsgotangco> hehe
[09:36] <robitaille> got the new version with the png.  looks great.
[09:37] <jsgotangco> it looks awesome as 300 dpi PDF
[09:38] <jsgotangco> (not bad for something done in 3 hours)
[09:39] <robitaille> I have found that I'm totally hopeless with anything even remotely artistic for posters, logos, etc
[09:40] <robitaille> do you want comments on the text, or the ball is in jdub's court?
[09:40] <jsgotangco> i want comment on text, we can always change stuff on it, but of course, jdub's opinion would be great as well
[09:40] <jsgotangco> (we wouldn't want to publish stuff that they can't vouch)
[09:42] <robitaille> ok...so I think "firefox 1.0.4" is a bit misleading...but not sure what to put instead.  "Firefox 1" looks funny.  And "Firefox 1.0.2" looks insecure.
[09:42] <robitaille> I would replace the "totally rad laptop support"  The language seems out of place with the rest of the page.
[09:43] <jsgotangco> yes, that's the stuff i want to be identified
[09:43] <jsgotangco> we'd like people to know that our stuff works great with laptops
[09:45] <robitaille> Ubuntu is not really "entirely free and open source"...just take the "kernel-restricted modules"  packages installed by default :)
[09:47] <robitaille> maybe "Excellent laptops support" as a replacement?  Actually I'm not even sure what "rad" means here (english /= my 1st language).  Radical?
[09:47] <jsgotangco> yeah
[09:47] <jsgotangco> hmm
[09:54] <robitaille> maybe you should put the default gdm picture (the one with the circle of people) instead of the screenshot of the desktop.  That would put a nice human touch to the flyer. (that and I'm not a big fan of Hoary's default background image)
[09:55] <jsgotangco> actually, i was asking mako/jdub/silbs about stock images from the hoary cd
[09:56] <jsgotangco> the desktop was just there to put something
[10:06] <robitaille> time to go to bed... good night
[10:06] <jsgotangco> night
[10:34] <mdke> morning all
[10:38] <jsgotangco> hello
[10:40] <mdke> hiya
[10:51] <jsgotangco> whats up man
[10:51] <mdke> just getting up
[10:51] <mdke> last day at school today
[10:51] <mdke> :D
[10:51] <jsgotangco> wow
[10:51] <jsgotangco> after that what happens
[10:52] <mdke> just need to hand in my exams then I'm done
[10:52] <mdke> i start a job for a year in october after that i'll officially be a lawyer
[10:52] <mdke> til then i need to find something to do
[10:52] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[10:52] <jsgotangco> ambulance chase?
[10:53] <mdke> not sure I know that one
[10:53] <mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
[10:53] <jsgotangco> ambulance chasing
[10:53] <jsgotangco> hehe
[10:53] <mdke> <-- shower
[10:53] <jsgotangco> eww
[10:53] <jsgotangco> why do you guys have the habit of chatting first before fixing up
[10:59] <mdke> back
[10:59] <mdke> so whats ambulance chasing
[11:01] <mdke> jsgotangco
[11:02] <mdke> [09:53:34]  jsgotangco why do you guys have the habit of chatting first before fixing up
[11:02] <mdke> i consider this room part of my house
[11:05] <jsgotangco> oh its an american term for lawyers that constantly are on the lookout for possible clients
[11:05] <mdke> oh of course
[11:05] <jsgotangco> they usually stay near hospitals in the emergency rooms
[11:06] <mdke> personal injury lawyers are ebil
[11:06] <jsgotangco> you know how evil those things are along with tort law
[11:06] <mdke> its part of tort law
[11:06] <mdke> tort law is pretty cool, just personal injury lawyers give it a bad name
[11:06] <jsgotangco> corporate tort is the worst
[11:07] <mdke> so you guys have tort law eh?#
[11:07] <jsgotangco> not really
[11:07] <mdke> where did you get your law from?
[11:07] <jsgotangco> me?
[11:07] <mdke> your country i mean
[11:08] <jsgotangco> ah its usually american jurisprudence if there's no local to refer to
[11:08] <mdke> i c
[11:08] <mdke> hence "tort"
[11:09] <jsgotangco> i believe we would have been better off if we were colonized by the english instead of the spanish and the americans
[11:09] <mdke> *grins*
[11:09] <mdke> the americans got their law from us
[11:09] <mdke> not the spanish tho
[11:09] <jsgotangco> i;ve always compared countries colonized by the spanish and the british
[11:10] <jsgotangco> the british colonies seem to fare well after
[11:10] <mdke> not so sure about that
[11:10] <mdke> we are as oppressive as the next empire
[11:10] <jsgotangco> well you can imagine my country being under spanish rule for over 400 years
[11:10] <jsgotangco> and the next 100 from the americans
[11:10] <jsgotangco> it got pretty screwed up culture wise
[11:10] <jsgotangco> hehe
[11:11] <mdke> yeah i can imagine
[11:11] <jsgotangco> but i guess in a racial point of view
[11:11] <jsgotangco> we have our bloods so mixed up
[11:11] <jsgotangco> thats why we dont have that much asian features compared to our neighbors
[11:11] <mdke> taking the best parts from each race eh...
[11:12] <jsgotangco> it would be ok if its just race
[11:12] <jsgotangco> hehe
[11:12] <jsgotangco> thats why the vatican loves the philippines
[11:12] <mdke> ;)
[11:12] <jsgotangco> its the only country in asia which has more than 80% catholics
[11:13] <mdke> that'll be the spanish influence
[11:13] <jsgotangco> if it not for WWII, Manila would be beautiful
[11:14] <jsgotangco> there is some local news here now about 2 japanese soldiers from WWII were found 60 years after the war
[11:51] <Liz> evening enrico 
[11:51] <Liz> evening sivang 
[11:52] <enrico> Hi!
[11:53] <mdke> hi enrico, Liz 
[11:53] <Liz> hi again mdke 
[11:53] <Liz> wow..channels been chatty for a change
[11:53] <mdke> *grins*
[11:53] <mdke> it goes in bursts
[11:54] <Liz> hehe..its all good
[11:56] <jsgotangco> hey
[11:56] <jsgotangco> WOW
[11:56] <jsgotangco> i was reading some news
[11:56] <jsgotangco> who knows the PSP (Playstation Portable)
[11:58] <sivang> Hey Liz !
[11:58] <sivang> enrico: wooohooo ! :-)
[11:58] <jsgotangco> wow
[11:58] <sivang> enrico: it's like one in a million chance for me to catch up on you
[11:58] <sivang> enrico: how are you? how have you been?
[12:01] <sivang> amazing to see that the topic hasn't changed since I first set it :-)
[12:01] <sivang> (While I still had more time for Ubuntu :-....( )
[12:02] <jsgotangco> are you serious
[12:03] <sivang> jsgotangco: huh? what do you mean?
[12:03] <jsgotangco> the topic thing
[12:03] <sivang> jsgotangco: look at the date
[12:03] <sivang> Jan 1st 
[12:03] <sivang> this year
[12:03] <sivang> :-)
[12:03] <jsgotangco> i didnt even notice
[12:03] <froud> shalom sivang naim liroht ot gha
[12:03] <sivang> jsgotangco: here's another freind of mine from the early days of Ubuntu doc team
[12:04] <sivang> froud: :-) Ma Nishma! Hamon zman lo dibarnoo
[12:04] <jsgotangco> hmm
[12:04] <jsgotangco> israel?
[12:04] <enrico> sivang: hi
[12:04] <sivang> jsgotangco: yep, do you recognize the words?
[12:04] <froud> sivang: ken lama, la'an alaghta
[12:04] <sivang> enrico: hey enrico, 'sup?
[12:04] <sivang> froud: leshoom makom, pashoot matzati avoda ;-)
[12:04] <enrico> sivang: a wee overworked
[12:04] <froud> sivang: mazal tov
[12:05] <jsgotangco> i only recognize "shalom"
[12:05] <sivang> froud: toda :-)
[12:05] <froud> sivang: im eze grevra
[12:05] <enrico> avaa naguila avaaa naguila avaaa 
[12:05] <sivang> enrico: hahaha
[12:05] <sivang> froud: I think we should step back to hebrew
[12:05] <sivang> opos,
[12:05] <sivang> to english
[12:05] <froud> ok
[12:05] <sivang> enrico noted it with his hava nagila :-)
[12:05] <froud> he he
[12:06] <froud> so you have a job now
[12:06] <enrico> MAZELTOPF!
[12:06] <froud> good thing dude
[12:06] <sivang> froud: yeah, that's why you don't see me around much anymore
[12:06] <froud> which company
[12:06] <sivang> enrico: :-)
[12:06] <sivang> jsgotangco: where are you from?
[12:06] <froud> sivang hopefully you wil have time to do work on ubuntu
[12:07] <sivang> froud: yeah, but I don't think I will do something else then code...I feel it's my true self to work on code then on docs
[12:07] <jsgotangco> sivang, manila, philippines
[12:08] <sivang> jsgotangco: cool, I hope things have gotten back to normal there since last disaster?
[12:09] <jsgotangco> sivang, hmmm are you talking about the tsunami, no we werent affected by that at all
[12:09] <sivang> jsgotangco: eh , good for you, sorry for my confusion.
[12:09] <sivang> jsgotangco: I know you have a very nice place there, may freinds tell me that
[12:10] <jsgotangco> its a good place to spend money for sure
[12:11] <jsgotangco> (especially if you have loads of it)
[12:11] <sivang> jsgotangco: lot
[12:11] <sivang> jsgotangco: how com?
[12:12] <jsgotangco> sivang, well if you're a smoker for instance, a pack or marlboro red would only cost you .50 cents (US $)
[12:14] <jsgotangco> not bad, i got mine for $600 - no name centrino from taiwan
[12:14] <jsgotangco> a high end geforce would probably cost you $100
[12:15] <jsgotangco> you could probably get it much cheaper in taiwan or hong kong
[12:24] <jsgotangco> wow setting up mediawiki is a no brainer
[12:25] <Liz> ill be back later
[12:25] <Liz> bye bye all
[12:26] <sivang> froud: you here?
[12:26] <froud> here
[12:27] <sivang> ok, this may come as rather unusual,
[12:27] <jsgotangco> oh my it just ran
[12:27] <sivang> however it seems that myself and froud have been contacted by a company
[12:27] <froud> enrico: jdub jeff-away jsgotangco k31th Kinnison mdke mpt mvirkkil Seveas sivang sladen 
[12:27] <sivang> (a publishing house)
[12:27] <sivang> which seems to work out on the ubuntu doc team,
[12:27] <sivang> and their intentions are unclear
[12:27] <froud> seems this company is trolling the team for people to write a book
[12:28] <sivang> froud: please go on
[12:28] <mpt> sivang: What do you mean by "work out on"?
[12:28] <sivang> froud: (so good to have talked about this, I feel relieved)
[12:28] <froud> sivang: and I had a chat
[12:28] <jsgotangco> froud, i don't mind co-authoring a book
[12:28] <froud> and we think we need to bring this to the attention of the team
[12:28] <sivang> mpt: read on what froud says
[12:28] <jsgotangco> i have been thinking about an official book as well
[12:29] <mpt> That's cool!
[12:29] <froud> The company could be working us against one another
[12:29] <sivang> exactly
[12:29] <sivang> trying to lower the proice,
[12:29] <sivang> have us submit proposals etc
[12:29] <jsgotangco> hmm?
[12:29] <mpt> froud gets to write a book in the medium for which books are intended! ;-)
[12:29] <sivang> then take on those ideas 
[12:29] <froud> has anyone else been contacted
[12:29] <jsgotangco> no
[12:29] <jsgotangco> not i
[12:29] <jsgotangco> let me check email
[12:30] <froud> The method is not cool IMHO
[12:30] <froud> eg
[12:30] <mpt> Unless they're one of the lurkers here, they probably picked names off the wiki, which would prevent them knowing about me :-)
[12:30] <jsgotangco> no i dont have email
[12:30] <froud> if each of us submits an outline to a book then they will have the way to do a book without us
[12:30] <mpt> sivang, froud: So they contacted you two separately, without telling you about each other?
[12:30] <sivang> froud: exactly
[12:31] <froud> and we all endup with nothing
[12:31] <froud> this type of thing goes on often
[12:31] <sivang> they can then give this to a writer of their own
[12:31] <froud> yep
[12:31] <froud> the hard part is the planning and outline
[12:31] <sivang> me and froud are old timers already in this arena, we know stuff like this
[12:31] <jsgotangco> wow thanks for the heads up
[12:32] <jsgotangco> at least i shouldn't be excited if i got contacted
[12:32] <sivang> jsgotangco: yeah, take this into proportion
[12:33] <froud> it is good news
[12:33] <jsgotangco> it means we're doing good i guess
[12:33] <froud> but we need to walk slowly together
[12:33] <jsgotangco> froud, i'd rather publish a book co-author with people i know
[12:34] <froud> sivang and I thought it best to bring this into the open
[12:34] <jsgotangco> and get a stamp of approval from the people above
[12:34] <froud> I trust others in the team will do the same
[12:34] <sivang> me too
[12:34] <jsgotangco> if its a localized book, its a different story
[12:35] <froud> I don't mind being approached to do books but I dont like the way this company is doing it
[12:35] <froud> they communicate once or twice and then fall slilent
[12:35] <jsgotangco> ahh
[12:36] <enrico> I haven't been contacted so far
[12:36] <jsgotangco> when was this?
[12:37] <sivang> enrico: maybe I should publish my toc on the docteam wikik
[12:37] <enrico> sivang: you may want to wait for froud to come back online
[12:37] <froud> sorry split
[12:38] <sivang> enrico: and set foor for starting ground for a new ubuntu book, for people with only windows knowledge
[12:38] <enrico> I haven't been contacted so far
[12:38] <sivang> enrico: they might do this in rounds and with intervals
[12:38] <jsgotangco> i say we move faster and beat them to it
[12:39] <mpt> jsgotangco: Then who would publish it?
[12:39] <froud> mpt: I can register ISBN
[12:39] <jsgotangco> good question
[12:39] <froud> and handle publishing
[12:39] <mpt> And why wouldn't you want people to make money off Ubuntu?
[12:39] <froud> we do
[12:39] <sivang> enrico: papaers? for uni?
[12:39] <froud> but not at the expense of the community
[12:39] <jsgotangco> they just dont like their tactics
[12:39] <froud> "For Humanity"
[12:39] <mpt> If they want to put out a book, that's great, and if their price is too low, let them find someone else.
[12:40] <jsgotangco> divide and conquer
[12:40] <enrico> sivang: http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/paper-debtags.{html,rst,pdf} (for Debconf5)
[12:40] <froud> jsgotangco: yes
[12:40] <enrico> and another for an academic journal about a case study for free software in schools
[12:40] <jsgotangco> lets say they got froud to do it,
[12:40] <jsgotangco> they can say they have authoritative doc?
[12:40] <froud> not really important
[12:41] <sivang> enrico: cool, like a true scholar
[12:41] <froud> if they contact us as a team I am happy
[12:41] <sivang> froud: maybe we should offer this to mark?
[12:41] <enrico> About the company, how about naming a person in the team who is the only one having contacts with them?
[12:41] <enrico> Then when they write to anyone else, they get sent to that person
[12:41] <sivang> enrico: good idea
[12:41] <enrico> And that person can say "So, what do you want to do?"
[12:42] <sivang> froud: I mean, take on such a book , keeping the health of the community, having it open sourced and printed
[12:42] <mpt> enrico: They'll want to have a contract with only one or (at most) two people, surely
[12:42] <sivang> mpt: true, that's what they told me
[12:42] <jsgotangco> just like what they do on most deadtree books, it gets released to the community after a few days
[12:42] <sivang> mpt: however, as a joint team, we do not have to agree
[12:42] <froud> I think that Ubuntu.com is all the marketing we need
[12:43] <froud> adding an ISBN I can get it in Amazon and B&N
[12:43] <sivang> froud: you have an ISBN registeration?
[12:43] <mpt> froud, I think ubuntu.com is no match for the world's bookstores.
[12:43] <froud> I can do it
[12:43] <mpt> offline bookstores, I mean.
[12:43] <froud> mpt: you will be surprised
[12:43] <jsgotangco> wow
[12:43] <jsgotangco> this i got to see
[12:43] <froud> mpt: but with an ISBN it can be ordered by book stores
[12:44] <sivang> froud: can you start your own publishing house? ;-)
[12:44] <sivang> froud: to have the book published...
[12:44] <jdub> sivang: dude, maybe the publisher just wants to publish a book, not muck around.
[12:44] <sivang> froud: and to keep power in our hands?
[12:44] <froud> no, I will donate it back to the Ubuntu-docteam
[12:44] <mpt> froud: Who's going to promote it to them?
[12:44] <froud> mpt: the power of the community is strong
[12:44] <sivang> jdub: true, but their tactics is strange, acutally, very strange
[12:45] <jdub> sivang: they're asking people they can identify as ubuntu writers about involvement in a piece. not entirely strange.
[12:45] <froud> I would like a free and open book where people pay for the service of printing
[12:46] <jsgotangco> not bad either
[12:46] <sivang> thinking of refusing them unless they agree to follow this
[12:46] <jdub> that may be so, but it may be entirely irrelevant to this publisher
[12:46] <sivang> froud: what do you say?
[12:46] <sivang> jdub: you know the publisher's name?
[12:46] <jsgotangco> they would just find another person
[12:46] <jdub> and if they care enough to push the book, that just means someone else will write it
[12:46] <mpt> bingo.
[12:47] <jsgotangco> right
[12:50] <mpt> I'd rather one member of the docteam (not me! I'm too ignorant about Ubuntu) got paid by themselves to write it, whatever the license, than that we tried to hold the entire docteam hostage on our own behalf, only to have the publisher say "screw you" and hire someone who makes more mistakes.
[12:50] <mpt> But then, it's not really any of my business, since they haven't contacted me :-P
[12:50] <jdub> imparting common sense is sometimes a forced business :)
[12:51] <froud> mpt: I would like to see commiters collaborate on it
[12:51] <jsgotangco> i'm too dumb to write a book by myself if they contact me, i'd still ask for the docteam's help anyway
[12:51] <jdub> froud: don't muck around with publishers then, start your own book project
[12:51] <froud> jdub: we have
[12:51] <froud> the problem is a hijack
[12:51] <mpt> The more books the better
[12:52] <jdub> great, so stop conflating issues and get to work :)
[12:52] <jsgotangco> froud, we do?
[12:52] <froud> jdub: we are
[12:52] <sivang> froud: we do? ;-
[12:52] <froud> jsgotangco: yes its in svn
[12:52] <froud> see user guides
[12:52] <sivang> ah right, the start of a book
[12:52] <jsgotangco> hmm
[12:52] <jsgotangco> mpt, your'e right, they're books tee hee
[12:52] <mpt> yes :->
[12:53] <mpt> The more books the better ... except in yelp
[12:53] <froud> OK I am notsure on Canonical on this one
[12:53] <jsgotangco> i'd rather not think canonical for now
[12:53] <mpt> What does it have to do with Canonical?
[12:53] <froud> they have a split interest
[12:53] <jsgotangco> i'd rather not be bothered by bureaucracy
[12:53] <jdub> the most respected linux author in germany has just published an ubuntu book
[12:53] <mpt> Canonical doesn't own Ubuntu
[12:53] <sivang> froud: however, what if they want to hire you and me, and we can make sure they will have the book open sourced, has anybody a problem against it?
[12:54] <jdub> jsgotangco: (dude, there is very little bureaucracy to be dealt with, where canonical is involved)
[12:54] <froud> I have no problem working with the team
[12:54] <sivang> jdub: cool, does it adress non linux users as well?
[12:54] <froud> jdub: from inside perhaps not
[12:55] <sivang> froud: I'd just like to utilize their ersources, for paying on your and mine's work, to have an open sourced book that would be even shipped with Ubuntu :-)
[12:55] <jdub> sivang: what does the team have to do with an invitation to be involved in writing a book?
[12:55] <jdub> sivang: i don't know; it's a book about ubuntu written in german
[12:55] <jsgotangco> sivang, it has a DVD of the install image as well
[12:56] <froud> ok let ssee how this pans out
[12:56] <froud> the important thing is that you are all aware
[12:57] <jdub> froud: there is very little bureaucracy when dealing with canonical from inside or out. getting what you want or not is not related to bureaucracy.
[12:57] <froud> jsgotangco: yes, but it is how you go about doing that
[12:57] <jsgotangco> froud, thanks for the info anyway
[12:57] <froud> jdub: that's not my experience
[12:58] <froud> but that's just me
[12:58] <jsgotangco> well if i do got invited to write, i will tell you guys about it for sure
[12:58] <jsgotangco> (but i dont see myself getting invited)
[12:58] <froud> I think what's important here is that we are not being played off one against the other
[12:59] <froud> I don't want a situation where b'cause of this people have a bad taste in their mouth and leave
[12:59] <froud> If the company is open in their intention and communicates responsibly then I would not doubt them
[12:59] <jsgotangco> (but then, this is just a start, we're less than a year old)
[01:00] <froud> that has not been the case
[01:00] <jsgotangco> well this has been an exciting discussion
[01:00] <froud> sure
[01:01] <jsgotangco> i better leave i'll be late for dinner with my wife
[01:01] <froud> I must do some work
[01:01] <sivang> laterz all, we will update on this more
[01:01] <sivang> I also have to go
[01:01] <jsgotangco> froud, just keep us posted anyway for what its work
[01:01] <jsgotangco> worth
[01:01] <sivang> power to the peoplpe! :_)
[01:01] <froud> +1
[01:02] <jsgotangco> sivang, it will pay off further in the months to come i guess
[01:02] <jsgotangco> (future releases and all)
[01:02] <sivang> jsgotangco: for me it payed up from day 0 :-)
[01:02] <jsgotangco> heh
[01:02] <sivang> jsgotangco: and from waty
[01:02] <jsgotangco> later then
[01:02] <sivang> laterz
[01:02] <sivang> later jdub , thanks 
[01:02] <mpt> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/books/
[01:03] <jsgotangco> argghh
[01:04] <jsgotangco> they help fund ubuntu?
[01:04] <jsgotangco> hmm
[01:05] <sivang> bye all
[01:15] <Kinnison> Morning
[03:31] <froud> He he, now even our finance minister s calling for Ubuntu http://www.finance24.com/articles/economy/display_article.asp?ArticleID=1518-25_1715369
[03:32] <jjesse> grin a global ubuntu
[03:44] <froud> is it possible to order Kubuntu CDs through shipit
[04:33] <jjesse> i recently ordered some and never saw a choice, i htink there should be
[04:59] <froud> jjesse: seems there is not .. confirmed by Riddle
[05:00] <jjesse> i got the same answer in #kubuntu
[05:23] <froud> jjesse: you following the list
[05:24] <froud> am I totally wrong here
[05:25] <froud> I know I am out on a limb for doing
[05:25] <froud> but it also seems that is the only way to get the attention and get things done
[05:26] <froud> :-)
[05:26] <froud> I still think we can do a great help system for ubuntu-docs without installing anything except html pages
[05:26] <froud> let the devels and users use whatever tool they want to view ubuntu docs
[05:27] <froud> dunno, maybe I am just not wanting to get into the battle of getting things changed upstream, but at least I made sure there is compatability
[05:27] <froud> thoughts
[05:41] <jjesse> sorry was away from desk, but i'm following the list and agree w/ you
[05:42] <jjesse> want to write that?
[05:43] <froud> well I would like to finalize this, with who agrees and who does not
[05:43] <froud> so comment is a good thing
[05:43] <froud> I am happy to finally be having this discusson at all :-)
[05:43] <froud> last I tried it was a deafening silence
[05:44] <jjesse> grin ok i'll write up a response
[05:44] <jjesse> sorry that i haven't done much w/ the network install guide yet... been reall busy w/ life, but this weekend i've blocked out some time to wwork on it while i do an upgrade at work
[06:39] <froud> jjesse: that's fine I have been side tracked into the FAQ Guide
[06:39] <froud> jjesse: so please do your thang when you have time
[08:55] <jjesse> a
[08:58] <venda> b
[08:59] <venda> Ok all tapped out on this conversation with Jeff
[08:59] <venda> think I am gonna call it a night
[08:59] <venda> see you good chaps later
[10:29] <sivang> froud-away: ping
[10:29] <sivang> froud-away: you here?
[10:30] <sivang> jdub: what's the license of the stuff published on the wiki?