[12:09] <mvo> Kamion: I put some proof of conecpt code for #185424 into michael.vogt@ubuntu.com--2005/apt--progress-reporting--0. I think we can use this as a starting point for a better interface. once I have a bit more (a OpProgress like interface or something) I'll announce it on the deity list as well
[12:32] <jcole> i installed vnc4server, but when i add 'Load "vnc"' to xorg.conf and restart X, the xorg log says it cannot find the vnc module... any insight to this? works in debian just fine
[12:34] <jcole> #apt-file search vnc.so
[12:34] <jcole> vnc4server: usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/vnc.so
[12:36] <jcole> is this module not compatable with xorg??
[12:37] <Kamion> may be bitten by the /usr/X11R6 reorganisation, if this is breezy
[12:37] <Kamion> don't know the details though
[12:38] <jcole> it's hoary
[12:40] <jcole> has does xorg "detect" a "valid" module?
[12:41] <Kamion> no idea, I'd be inclined to strace it ... :-)
[12:43] <mdz> gah, I think my RAM is quitting on me
[12:45] <jcole> well... is there another way to access the gdm screen on an external box?
[12:46] <calc> you can always use xdmcp
[12:47] <calc> its likely slower than vnc though
[12:47] <jcole> calc: ah, right
[12:47] <jcole> calc: ya, it exports to vnc proto
[12:48] <jcole> calc: oh, wait, you said xdmcp
[12:48] <calc> or ssh into the box and just do x forwarding
[12:48] <jcole> calc: ewwww
[12:48] <calc> works fine if you have the bandwidth ;)
[12:51] <jcole> calc: well, i'll just have him log in and run x0rfbserver
[12:52] <jcole> the vnc X module is quite handy though on my debian system though... i'll figure it out later on ubuntu
[01:07] <wasabi> When you add "vnc" to xorg.conf?
[01:07] <wasabi> Huh huh huh?
[01:07] <wasabi> What's that do?
[01:09] <wasabi> oh interesting. never knew about that.
[01:09] <jdub> later dudes, going away for the weekend :-)
[01:09] <Kamion> jdub: have fun
[01:10] <wasabi> don't really like it much either.
[01:12] <wasabi> gdm should really be offering a VNC server.
[01:12] <wasabi> Which should let you login to a new session, or resume an existing one.
[01:12] <jdub> wasabi: see mark mcloughlin's talk from guadec
[01:14] <wasabi> not seeing it
[01:16] <bronson> I just tried to dist-upgrade to breezy and I can't get gdm to run.
[01:16] <bronson> I fixed xbase-clients.
[01:17] <bronson> After GDM finishes flashing, my VGA mode is fubar.  Reboot time.
[01:17] <bronson> Known issue?
[01:34] <tseng> bronson: X is broken = a known issue. it will be randomly broken for some time.
[01:49] <wasabi> install X from hoary if you want it workingl.
[01:50] <tseng> thats silly advice
[01:50] <tseng> mixing dists can break things more
[01:50] <KaiL_> install everything from hoary, if you want somethink working :)
[01:51] <KaiL_> somebody should try to explain the people out there, that they can't compare the ubuntu devel versions with debian/unstable
[01:51] <Amaranth> i'm fully upgraded in breezy without issues
[01:52] <Amaranth> but i've had daniels help me get X running a couple times
[01:52] <tseng> lets not all bother daniels every 2 days please.
[01:52] <Amaranth> KaiL_: They could with hoary
[01:52] <KaiL_> Amaranth: ?
[01:52] <Amaranth> KaiL_: hoary was relatively stable from right after xorg stabilized
[01:53] <Amaranth> which was about a month into hoary, wasn't it?
[01:53] <KaiL_> you can use debian/sid for daily working (more or less), but ubuntu/breezy is currently _NOT_ made for daily use
[01:53] <KaiL_> for that we have hoary
[01:55] <KaiL_> developers doesn't care that much, if breezy currently doesn't work - it's only important, that it'll work in October
[01:56] <Amaranth> KaiL_: That's not true. It needs to somewhat work.
[01:56] <Amaranth> KaiL_: If they get no testing it won't work in October.
[01:57] <Kamion> I care; if it doesn't work, I can't release test CDs
[01:57] <Kamion> it doesn't have to work all the time, but it has to at least go through periods of workingness
[01:57] <KaiL_> Kamion: you don't expect a working test CD soon, or? ;))
[01:57] <Kamion> KaiL_: it's overdue
[01:58] <Kamion> KaiL_: and bear in mind I am typically not just passively sitting back and waiting for stuff to work
[01:58] <daniels> mdz: tricky.  i'll have a look later today and see how it goes.
[01:58] <Kamion> KaiL_: it doesn't seem productive to hassle people at this precise moment, though
[01:58] <KaiL_> Kamion: that's not what I mean
[01:59] <KaiL_> it's only a bit annoying to explain people in the support chats, that they can not expect, that breezy works
[02:00] <tseng> its pretty effective to let them figure that out for themselves
[02:00] <KaiL_> this "do NOT use breezy, if you want something stable" seams not to be big enough ;)
[02:01] <Amaranth> we've started a "no help if you're using breezy" thing in #ubuntu
[02:01] <KaiL_> that might help
[02:01] <mdke> Amaranth, *laughs*
[02:01] <Amaranth> most users are satisfied with backports
[02:01] <mdke> bit harsh maybe
[02:01] <Amaranth> mdke: we try, anyway
[02:02] <mdke> i'm gonna try breezy tomorrow
[02:02] <Kamion> KaiL_: you said "developers don't care"; that's simply not true. I'm correcting misinformation, that's all.
[02:02] <Amaranth> if someone is willing to use breezy right now they really should be beyond needing help in #ubuntu
[02:02] <KaiL_> Kamion: doesn't care that much
[02:02] <mdke> Amaranth, well... sometimes you can get help on complex matters in #ubuntu
[02:02] <Kamion> KaiL_: not true either.
[02:02] <KaiL_> =if even one package in hoary is not installable, there will be a bug very very soon
[02:03] <Kamion> KaiL_: I care really rather deeply. It blocks my work.
[02:03] <KaiL_> if this happenes in breezy, it's something for the todo list
[02:03] <Amaranth> mdke: Well, it's not like we say "using breezy? FOAD" or anything. But if they bring up problems with X, etc and they're using breezy we tell them to go back to hoary.
[02:04] <Amaranth> KaiL_: uninstallable packages in universe are one thing, uninstallable parts of the desktop seed are another
[02:04] <KaiL_> Amaranth: you run gnome?
[02:04] <Amaranth> yes
[02:04] <mdz> daniels: I think the keyboard guessing should only be done on first install, and not reconfigure
[02:04] <KaiL_> with kde it's WAY more fun to use breezy
[02:04] <mdz> daniels: of course, that breaks the live cd
[02:05] <Amaranth> KaiL_: sucks to be you then, you were warned ;)
[02:05] <Amaranth> although i have most of kde installed
[02:05] <KaiL_> because there are still many apps in main (!), which can't be build with gcc4
[02:05] <KaiL_> afaik there's nothing done in breezy/universe...
[02:05] <Amaranth> main transition finished already, didn't it?
[02:05] <Amaranth> KaiL_: that's a lie
[02:06] <KaiL_> Amaranth: for kde packages
[02:06] <Amaranth> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList
[02:06] <Amaranth> dude, i have kicker and KDE libs installed
[02:06] <daniels> mdz: right.  that's the problem, is that it's a probing-type thing.  hrm.
[02:06] <KaiL_> Amaranth: and?
[02:06] <mdz> daniels: I consider it in a different class than hardware probing, though
[02:07] <mdz> hardware probing on reconfigure makes sense to me, but re-guessing the layout (especially if they've changed it) seems counter-intuitive
[02:07] <Amaranth> KaiL_: as of right now kubuntu-desktop is installable
[02:08] <KaiL_> Amaranth: amarok?
[02:08] <Amaranth> KaiL_: if it's a part of kubuntu-desktop, sure
[02:08] <KaiL_> k3b?
[02:08] <KaiL_> kscreensaver?
[02:08] <KaiL_> all NOT installable
[02:08] <Amaranth> k3b isn't kubuntu-desktop
[02:08] <mdz> daniels: it seems like the live CD is the odd man out; similar semantics make sense for both a user-initiated dpkg-reconfigure and the LTSP case
[02:08] <Amaranth> KaiL_: What is your point?
[02:09] <wasabi> mdz, so what's up with java/ :)
[02:09] <mdz> wasabi: I sent you some messages in this channel earlier today
[02:09] <wasabi> oh
[02:09] <mdz> Jun 03 10:47:17 <mdz>    wasabi: looks like libxerces2-java is the last free-java-sdk package
[02:09] <wasabi> ahh ok will grab it
[02:09] <mdz> Jun 03 10:21:27 <mdz>   wasabi_: I've updatedhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/temp/java-main.txt
[02:10] <KaiL_> only that the kde stuff in main is still not done and afaik nobody had time for the packages in universe
[02:10] <Amaranth> KaiL_: and all of those _are_ installable
[02:10] <KaiL_> Amaranth: in breezy?
[02:10] <Amaranth> yes
[02:10] <KaiL_> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/testing/breezy_probs.html
[02:10] <KaiL_> uninstallable packages:
[02:10] <KaiL_> amarok(i386)
[02:10] <Amaranth> not up to date
[02:11] <Amaranth> i'll believe my computer over a static web page
[02:11] <KaiL_> just ran apt-get update and it's still same
[02:11] <Amaranth> no offense Kamion 
[02:11] <Kamion> it's hardly static
[02:11] <Kamion> I just updated it, so it's current with respect to the archive
[02:12] <Amaranth> KaiL_: just ran apt-get update and they're still installable
[02:12] <Kamion> they so aren't
[02:12] <Amaranth> synaptic is lying to me?
[02:12] <Kamion> you have pre-C++-transition libraries installed locally
[02:12] <Kamion> try a fresh chroot
[02:12] <Amaranth> ah :P
[02:12] <Kamion> e.g.
[02:12] <Kamion>           Depends: kdelibs4 (>= 4:3.4.0) but it is not installable
[02:13] <Kamion> kdelibs4c2 | 4:3.4.1-0ubuntu2 |        breezy | amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[02:13] <KaiL_> bingo
[02:13] <Amaranth> ah well, KDE users get what they deserve :D
[02:13] <Kamion> it needs to be rebuilt once all its libraries have been transitioned
[02:13] <KaiL_> amarok needs some fixes to build with gcc4
[02:13] <Kamion> Amaranth: anyone assuming breezy_probs.html is bogus usually turns out to be wrong, I'm afraid. :-)
[02:14] <Kamion> at least since I made it mirror at the same frequency as archive updates a little while ago
[02:14] <KaiL_> k3b doesn't look much better
[02:15] <Amaranth> Kamion: that explains it
[02:15] <Amaranth> last time i looked at it it was out of date
[02:15] <Kamion> I really doubt that
[02:15] <Kamion> this was a while back
[02:15] <Kamion> people often assume it's wrong if they're testing in a non-fresh chroot
[02:15] <Amaranth> well, someone it said was uninstallable installed
[02:15] <Amaranth> err
[02:16] <Kamion> that's no proof of anything; it's looking at whether it's installable with respect only to packages currently in main
[02:16] <Amaranth> how can i have packages on my system that can't be setup in a chroot?
[02:16] <Kamion> it might depend on stuff in universe, or it might depend on old packages that you still have installed but that have been removed from the archive since
[02:16] <mdke> anyone speak spanish?
[02:17] <mdke> i was wondering what those comments on the FrontPage of the wiki mean
[02:17] <Kamion> most package managers provide a facility to search for obsolete packages
[02:18] <Amaranth> yeah, the only 'obsolete' ones i have around are local installs
[02:18] <Amaranth> except for the one package for enigma
[02:19] <KaiL_> ia32-libs << compatibility libs to run i386 on amd64?
[02:21] <KaiL_> I wonder, why it lists kleopatra as not installable
[02:22] <KaiL_> ah, needs gnupg2 from universe
[02:25] <wasabi> Odd.
[02:25] <wasabi> Xerces2 no compile.
[02:25] <wasabi> =(
[02:26] <daniels> mdz: mmm, I suppose.  i was thinking of a Debconf question that you could set that got reset to defaul t(e.g. do_reprobe_keyboard).
[02:34] <mdz> daniels: sounds reasonable; the default would be off, and casper would set it to true?
[02:34] <mdz> and it would get bumped to true on initial installs?
[02:36] <KaiL_> daniels: why don't you use "radeon" as default driver for ATI R200 cards? does that also break S3 as the commercial drivers do?
[02:40] <tseng> KaiL_: the ati driver loads radeon
[02:40] <KaiL_> afaik you get no DRI then...
[02:41] <tseng> vs loading radeon explicitly?
[02:41] <KaiL_> yes
[02:44] <KaiL_> and I'd like to see "dynamic clocks" autoenabled for the mobile Radeon, that brings us a lot closer to XP in run time
[02:47] <tseng> KaiL_: i already asked that, supposedly it greatly kills performance for some folks
[02:48] <KaiL_> I think, those can disable it, if they really care
[02:48] <tseng> erm
[02:48] <KaiL_> those guys will also enable fglrx and kill S3 then :)
[02:48] <KaiL_> most people I know ONLY care about run time
[02:49] <tseng> i think you are wrong about the ati/radeon no accel thing
[02:50] <tseng> i changed to radeon explicitly and its still sucking
[02:50] <KaiL_> "still sucking"?
[02:50] <tseng> yeah, like 230fps
[02:50] <KaiL_> that's no DRI...
[02:50] <KaiL_> R200?
[02:50] <tseng> in that thing that daniels will beat me senseless for calling a benchmark
[02:50] <KaiL_> (meany <=9250)
[02:51] <tseng> no this is a AIW atm
[02:51] <tseng> 0000:01:00.1 Display controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV350 AP [Radeon 9600]  (Secondary)
[02:51] <tseng> r200 is in my laptop
[02:51] <KaiL_> RV350 -> needs fglrx
[02:51] <KaiL_> or the r300-beta one ;)
[02:51] <tseng> oh.
[02:51] <KaiL_> don't ask me, which is worse *g*
[02:55] <eruin> off-topic I guess, but do any of you have a link to a good read about highlights in gcc4?
[02:56] <KaiL_> http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.0/changes.html ?
[03:09] <dooglus> hi guys.  we've been having a flood of people in #ubuntu complaining about the us.archive mirror being down.  we tried asking the ops to mention it in the topic, but they all seem to be sleeping, so I put a 'onjoin' message in my client to tell people when they join.
[03:09] <dooglus> it's got rid of the people asking about the downed mirror, but now we've got a flood of people complaining about the onjoin message...  :)
[03:09] <dooglus> can any of you edit the topic please?
[03:09] <lamont__> in #ubuntu?
[03:10] <dilinger> is that a reentrant lamont?
[03:11] <lamont_r> dilinger: roaming, dammit
[03:12] <dilinger> ok.  i won't use you in any threaded applications, then.
[03:12] <elmo> I've dropped us.archive.u.c, FWIW, it'll time out in the next 
[03:12] <elmo> I've dropped us.archive.u.c, FWIW, it'll propagate in the next ~10 mins
[03:12] <elmo> speak english well do i
[03:16] <dooglus> thanks lamont_r 
[03:18] <lamont_r> elmo: once it's had a chance to really time out, you want to change the #ubuntu topic, or kick me and I'll do it?
[06:33] <Micksa> mjg59: ping
[07:20] <Micksa> if I wanted to track down STR bugs, would I be better off using hoary or breezy?
[07:22] <Micksa> which one would you guys prefer bug reports for?
[07:23] <crimsun> breezy is the focus
[07:59] <Micksa> fucking, debootstrap won't work :(
[08:35] <Micksa> I can't create a breezy debootstrap :(
[08:35] <Micksa> it just won't let me do it
[08:40] <Micksa> hang on... I think I might have tricked it...
[08:49] <Micksa> or not.
[09:11] <stuNNed> crimsun: the prob with stuff not refreshing on nautilus desktop was due to human-icons afaik
[09:59] <Reza_M> What's the goal of the ServerInstall project? A derivate dist or adding some futures to the standard One-CD ubuntu?
[10:01] <Ssh_rdp> I Think it is a derative distro :)
[10:02] <Reza_M> So, It's very similar to SBS
[10:02] <Reza_M> SmallBusinessServer
[10:02] <Mithrandir> uhm, what ServerInstall project?
[10:03] <Reza_M> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerInstallation
[10:03] <Reza_M> and http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/SmallBusinessServer
[10:04] <Mithrandir> the ServerInstallation spec is still very early, it seems.
[10:04] <Mithrandir> it doesn't appear to be a derivative, just some features added
[10:06] <Reza_M>  Base install only option -> rapid installation, minimal questions, auto partitioning (config file defined?)
[10:06] <Reza_M>  NO GUIs on servers
[10:06] <Reza_M>  Central Admin Interface -> GUI on ubuntu desktop, html/curses interface, package selection/updates 
[10:08] <Reza_M> The standard One-CD Ubuntu wants to have these futures?
[10:09] <Mithrandir> it has most of it already.
[10:11] <Ssh_rdp> Whats the goal of ServerInstallation?
[10:11] <Ssh_rdp> I cant understand
[10:13] <Reza_M> I think SBS is a Ubuntu Server with some other server futures. Is it?
[10:58] <Micksa> grah
[10:58] <Micksa> I'm trying to get a pxe boot going to test acpi stuff
[10:58] <Micksa> I can get a cramfs working with the breezy kernel, which becomes readonly at boot
[10:59] <Micksa> but a normal ext2 fs won't work
[10:59] <Micksa> will with the installer kernel though
[11:00] <Micksa> pff
[11:20] <Kamion> Micksa: current debootstrap in breezy *should* be fine for breezy ...
[11:32] <ajmitch> hi JaneW 
[11:33] <tseng> hi JaneW, ajmitch, *
[11:33] <ajmitch> & hi sabdfl, tseng 
[11:33] <sabdfl> hey ajmitch
[11:33] <tseng> morning sabdfl
[11:33] <sabdfl> top 'o the mornin' to ya
[11:33] <ajmitch> JaneW: you pinged yesterday?
[11:34] <Kamion> two months and 18 days too late? :-)
[11:34] <Kamion> (top o' the mornin')
[11:34] <Micksa> kamion: it's dpkg that appears to be broken.
[11:34] <tseng> ah silly me, who do I bother about moving my key to main upload keyring
[11:35] <Micksa> kamion: something about mmap failing
[11:35] <Micksa> on /var/lib/dpkg/available
[11:35] <tseng> keyring@ I guess.
[11:35] <Kamion> Micksa: ! what release are you running debootstrap on?
[11:35] <Kamion> I've never seen that ...
[11:35] <Micksa> breezy
[11:35] <Kamion> Micksa: also, /var/lib/dpkg/available could be corrupt; try 'dselect update'
[11:35] <Micksa> it was size 0 at the time
[11:36] <Kamion> oh, fix that with 'dselect update'. :)
[11:36] <Micksa> does that count as corrupt? :)
[11:36] <Micksa> okay
[11:37] <Micksa> didn't know you could rebuild available
[11:37] <Micksa> how dumb am I
[11:38] <tseng> lamont: /proc is not mounted on x86 buildd? f-spot ftbfs
[11:42] <infinity> tseng : Is now.  Giving back the package.
[11:43] <\sh> lamont: ping
[11:45] <infinity> \sh : pong
[11:45] <tseng> infinity: thanks!
[11:46] <\sh> hehe...
[11:46] <\sh> infinity: u have a nc6000 laptop? ,-)
[11:47] <infinity> \sh : Ahh, no.  It's one small way in which lamont and I differ.  And hair colour.  <nod>
[11:49] <\sh> infinity: hahaha...
[12:25] <daniels> KaiL_: we use 'ati' as the default because it just delegates to radeon
[12:26] <daniels> mdz: that's the one; every time we tripped that codepath, we'd set it back to false, so you don't get unexpected behaviours
[12:26] <daniels> mdz: sound sensible?
[12:27] <daniels> KaiL_: also, enabling DynamicClocks is *bad*.  it's not just performance implications, it's that it causes a whole bunch of random laptops to just randomly lock up.
[12:27] <mjg59> daniels: Do we have any idea how to enable the CRT out on Radeons or Geforces?
[12:31] <daniels> mjg59: radeons should happen automatically.  nfi about geforces.
[12:31] <mjg59> daniels: "Automatically" how?
[12:31] <daniels> mjg59: if you start X with a CRT plugged in, it should mirror
[12:31] <mjg59> What if I plug in a CRT afterwards?
[12:32] <daniels> ... you lose
[12:32] <mjg59> (And what if the CRT has different DDC limitations?)
[12:32] <mjg59> I... see
[12:32] <daniels> if the CRT has higher limitations, it'll just expand
[12:32] <daniels> if the CRT has lower limitations, it should set up scrolling
[12:32] <mjg59> But it ought to be possible to rip that code out of the radeon driver and implement a userspace tool to enable/disable?
[12:33] <daniels> um, sort of, yeah
[12:33] <mjg59> Um. "Sort of"?
[12:33] <sabdfl> how do i prevent the console from blanking?
[12:33] <daniels> basically you want RADEON_CRTC_GEN_CNTL and RADEON_CRTC2_GEN_CNTL fiddling, et al
[12:33] <mjg59> Ok, so it's mostly just basic register setup?
[12:33] <daniels> but you'd also probably need to program the clocks for that mode
[12:34] <daniels> i can't speak as to how complex it might be
[12:34] <daniels> the best would be a way to kick the X server, but we don't have one of those at the moment
[12:34] <mjg59> Hmm. So it has different clocks for internal and external? Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
[12:34] <mjg59> Ideally we want to be able to trigger on hotkey events
[12:34] <daniels> mjg59: well, on a laptop, it'd probably power down the crtc if you're just using lvds
[12:35] <daniels> mjg59: so you'd need to bring it up and then punch in the right parameters to get the mode you so desire
[12:35] <mjg59> Yeah
[12:35] <mjg59> But there's existing code that does that in the X server, right?
[12:35] <daniels> theoretically you could tell it to always assume a 1024x768 CRT and use a userspace tool to just force the clocks on and off
[12:35] <elmo> sabdfl: setvesablank  [guessing though] 
[12:35] <daniels> but that's, um, kind of nasty
[12:35] <trulux> heya
[12:35] <daniels> mjg59: yeah, mostly in radeon_driver.c
[12:35] <sabdfl> elmo: thanks
[12:35] <sabdfl> elmo: i'm trying to debug these lockups
[12:36] <mjg59> daniels: My hacky thing was going to be to use whatever the screen resolution was at the time, and let people use xrandr to set that
[12:37] <daniels> heh
[12:37] <daniels> crtc always on -> no battery life though
[12:37] <mjg59> Yeah
[12:38] <mjg59> So have the display key generate an event that checks what hardware the machine has, checks what resolution the screen currently is and then calls the appropriate userspace tool
[12:39] <mjg59> Then possibly hack the screen resolution app to update that whenever the user changes the resolution
[12:39] <daniels> ideally we'd be able to HAL it up and have X get kicked on display hotplug events
[12:39] <mjg59> Yes. Yes, that would be the ideal solution.
[12:39] <mjg59> If you can get that into 6.9/7.0, I will love you forever
[12:39] <daniels> ha ha
[12:39] <daniels> you do know we're releasing in like august, yeah?
[12:40] <mjg59> Yes
[12:40] <elmo> sabdfl: might be worth trying a 2.6.12 kernel at some stage too
[12:40] <daniels> mjg59: cool
[12:40] <tseng> elmo: are you the person to bother about putting my key in main keyring?
[12:40] <mjg59> (I hasten to add that I won't be writing that)
[12:41] <daniels> mjg59: soft.
[12:42] <mjg59> Why will Intel not release 2D specs?
[12:42] <daniels> mjg59: because they hate our freedom
[12:42] <elmo> tseng: if you've got TB/CC approval, mail keyring@
[12:42] <daniels> ergo, terrorists
[12:42] <sabdfl> elmo: thanks, seems to have worked
[12:42] <sabdfl> elmo: you at my place somewhere?
[12:42] <elmo> sabdfl: mossop street
[12:43] <mjg59> The only public information seems to be "The 2D registers are a combination of registers based on the Video Graphics Array adapter and others that Intel has added to support graphics modes that have color depths, resolutions and hardware acceleration features that go beyond the original VGA standard"
[12:43] <mjg59> THANKS, INTEL
[12:44] <tseng> JaneW: probably shouldnt link "ubuntu-meeting-current" as the log for 
[12:44] <tseng> JaneW: Tb/CC, it doesnt stay relevant
[12:44] <sabdfl> elmo: coolio. marianne is here, we'll be around!
[12:55] <Nafallo> mjg59: where do you want the answers to the testing spec? wiki somewhere?
[12:59] <mjg59> Nafallo: Nowhere yet
[01:00] <mjg59> I want the spec to be sorted first
[01:01] <Nafallo> mjg59: oh, oki :-)
[01:03] <sabdfl> hi guys
[01:03] <sabdfl> my desktop keeps locking hard, running hoary
[01:04] <sabdfl> mdz told me to use alt-sysrq-t
[01:04] <sabdfl> but all it says is "Show status:"
[01:04] <sabdfl> and nothing further
[01:04] <sabdfl> gdm is not running
[01:04] <sabdfl> happens with and without acpi
[01:04] <sabdfl> bios hs been updated to latest version
[01:04] <sabdfl> any suggestions?
[01:04] <sabdfl> elmo mentioned using a serial cable
[01:05] <tseng> does the harddrive light go solid?
[01:05] <mjg59> daniels: Hmm. There's some code in the nv driver to switch heads, but it's not clear whether that's for dual head PCI cards or what
[01:06] <tseng> jbailey mentioned checking for bad blocks.. but it took forever and wasnt the issue at all for me
[01:06] <tseng> so id save it for last.
[01:07] <Micksa> pokes, even
[01:07] <Micksa> mjg59: your blogs are entertaining
[01:07] <Micksa> also
[01:07] <mjg59> Haha
[01:07] <Micksa> MY LAPTOP WON'T SUSPEND PLS HELP
[01:07] <mjg59> daniels: Also, nvtv seems to have some code for i810-based tv out
[01:08] <mjg59> Micksa: Hmm. What laptop?
[01:08] <Micksa> inspiron 6000
[01:08] <Micksa> so far, on resume the screen is blank, attempting to blind-type commands doesn't work but sysrq combos do
[01:08] <Micksa> haven't tried with X yet :)
[01:09] <mjg59> Micksa: Ok, it's quite probably IDE resume issues
[01:09] <mjg59> Micksa: Can you put /var/log/dmesg up somewhere?
[01:09] <Micksa> you mean after the resume? :)
[01:10] <Micksa> what parts of it?
[01:10] <mjg59> No, the entirity of /var/log/dmesg after boot
[01:11] <daniels> mjg59: is it calling through VBE, or poking registers?
[01:11] <mjg59> daniels: Poking registers
[01:11] <Micksa> okay
[01:11] <daniels> mjg59: intriguing
[01:11] <mjg59> Micksa: Is this Hoary or Breezy?
[01:11] <Micksa> breezy
[01:11] <Micksa> 2.6.12
[01:11] <mjg59> Micksa: Hmm
[01:12] <mjg59> Micksa: Less sure, then. There's a few things that will be going in in the near future that may help
[01:12] <Micksa> google search for other peoples experiences gets more or less the same result with hoary at least
[01:12] <mjg59> Micksa: Does caps lock work on resume?
[01:13] <Micksa> um, hang on
[01:13] <Micksa> I'm in the middle of trying to set up a minimal breezy on a ramdisk so I can narrow it down
[01:13] <Micksa> (yes, I want STR that badly)
[01:14] <Micksa> yes, capslock works
[01:17] <Micksa> c'or, 56M initrd :)
[01:18] <mdke> i'm trying the colony1 install cd :)
[01:18] <mdke> is it likely to pick up an acx111 wifi card?
[01:19] <Mithrandir> I thought it would, yes.
[01:19] <mdke> seems not mine
[01:19] <mdke> np
[01:20] <mdke> looks like the firmware is missing
[01:20] <mjg59> Micksa: Hmm. Do you have a serial por?
[01:20] <Mithrandir> mdke: ah, that would make sense.
[01:20] <Micksa> mjg59: yes.
[01:21] <Micksa> on a USB port replicator.
[01:21] <mdke> Mithrandir, maybe there is space on the install cd for more firmware, what do you think?
[01:22] <mjg59> Micksa: Oh. No, that's unlikely to work, then.
[01:22] <Mithrandir> mdke: would make sense, yes.
[01:22] <mdke> maybe i'll file a bug
[01:22] <Micksa> I fscking NEW that would come up :)
[01:23] <mjg59> Micksa: Sorry, I mean that a serial port on a USB thing isn't going to be good enough for serial debug
[01:23] <Micksa> yeah, I know
[01:23] <pitti> Hey
[01:23] <mjg59> If you had on-board serial we could figure out how far the system's got
[01:23] <mjg59> Hahaha
[01:23] <mjg59> Irritatingly, it probably has one
[01:23] <mjg59> There's an ACPI spec for debug ports, which are just serial ports without a full connector
[01:24] <Micksa> oh? interesting
[01:24] <sladen> Micksa: if it's a modern laptop, it'll have the pins, since otherwise MS would help with porting
[01:25] <mjg59> Micksa: Do you know if any of the current Inspiron range (1200, 2200, 510m, or 9300) work?
[01:25] <Micksa> I got the 8200 working
[01:25] <Micksa> er. no :)
[01:25] <mjg59> Ok. I'll see if I can pick up one of them to debug on at some stage.
[01:26] <Micksa> am I going to get anything out of testing off a ramdisk?
[01:27] <mjg59> Hmm. It's /possible/
[01:27] <mjg59> It really depends where it's hanging
[01:27] <mjg59> Have you tried with init=/bin/bash ?
[01:27] <Micksa> hmm, not yet
[01:27] <mjg59> Try that first
[01:27] <Micksa> I could I guess... um...
[01:27] <mjg59> Boot with init=/bin/bash and then just mount /proc and echo -n 3 >/proc/acpi/sleep
[01:28] <mjg59> Then see if it resumes
[01:28] <sladen> mjg59: your testing page could probably do with a ''does the display looked screwed during the installer'' ?
[01:28] <mjg59> sladen: Oh, true
[01:29] <Micksa> I think I tried something like that and it still didn't power up the screen again. hang on.
[01:30] <Micksa> no, blank screen
[01:30] <mjg59> Yeah, powering up the screen is a separate problem
[01:30] <mjg59> Is the machine running, though?
[01:30] <mjg59> Does ls -R / do anything?
[01:31] <Micksa> no
[01:31] <mjg59> Ok, so the system isn't resuming fully. Sigh.
[01:33] <sladen> mjg59: oh, I had a report of a machine that didn't come up after resume, but SAK worked
[01:33] <mjg59> sladen: Yes, that's generally driver resume failure of some sort
[01:34] <mjg59> Usually IDE
[01:34] <mjg59> Micksa: And this is the latest Breezy kernel?
[01:35] <Micksa> yes, 2.6.12-1
[01:35] <mjg59> On its own, that doesn't provide much information :)
[01:35] <mjg59> What's the package version?
[01:35] <Micksa> um, well latest as of a few days ago
[01:36] <mjg59> 2.6.11.93-1.1?
[01:37] <Micksa> yeah.
[01:37] <mjg59> Ok. Hm.
[01:37] <mjg59> Can you send me a copy of /proc/acpi/dsdt ?
[01:38] <Micksa> sure. address?
[01:38] <mjg59> mjg59@srcf.ucam.org
[01:38] <\sh> i need someone with a hp/compaq nc6000 laptop
[01:39] <Micksa> hang on.
[01:39] <Micksa> I'll do whatever I can to figure this out.
[01:39] <Micksa> I have the ACPI spec, and I WILL read it
[01:40] <Micksa> don't make me do it, cos I will
[01:40] <mjg59> It's almost certainly the kernel drivers rather than an acpi spec issue
[01:40] <mjg59> With the possible exception of us not doing anything with the _GTF method
[01:41] <mjg59> Micksa: Oh, did you put /var/log/dmesg anywhere?
[01:41] <Micksa> no. hang on.
[01:43] <Micksa> http://knobbits.org/tmp/dmesg
[01:43] <Micksa> http://knobbits.org/tmp/dsdt-i6000-a06.bin
[01:45] <mjg59> Micksa: Ah!
[01:45] <mjg59> Micksa: SATA drive
[01:45] <Micksa> sata interface
[01:46] <Micksa> the drive is actually PATA
[01:46] <mjg59> Micksa: Right, yes, there's a patch to make that work. I'll try to get that into the next kernel.
[01:46] <mjg59> At the moment, if you have SATA it'll all blow up
[01:47] <mjg59> Micksa: Ok, I'll sort out a debpatch for fabbione and we'll get that into the kernel
[01:47] <mjg59> With a bit of luck you'll be able to test it next week
[01:47] <Mithrandir> mjg59: if you need testing of that on amd64, I'm all ears. :-)
[01:47] <mjg59> Mithrandir: Before amd64 really has a prayer, someone needs to port vbetool to use x86emu
[01:48] <daniels> yeah
[01:49] <Mithrandir> mjg59: how hard is that?
[01:49] <mjg59> Mithrandir: Not indescribably, but not something I have time for right now
[01:49] <Micksa> mjg: if you can point me at the patch I'll be more than happy to test it :)
[01:50] <Mithrandir> mjg59: would I be able to do it if I suddenly was bored during an afternoon?
[01:50] <mjg59> Mithrandir: Yes
[01:50] <Mithrandir> ok, I might become suddenly bored, then.
[01:50] <mjg59> Mithrandir: Basically, we just need a shim to convert the lirc calls into appropriate x86emu ones
[01:50] <mjg59> Uh, lrmi (not lirc)
[01:50] <daniels> heh, lirc
[01:50] <Mithrandir> mjg59: I've just skimmed the x86emu stuff, and it didn't look unsurmountable.
[01:51] <mjg59> Mithrandir: On x86, we want to use lrmi rather than x86emu. On amd64, we have no vm86 mode so need to use x86emu
[01:51] <mjg59> That also gives us the DDC code for video probing on amd64 for free
[01:52] <Mithrandir> mjg59: hwinfo gives us that on amd64 for free already.  I've been poking daniels to use that for a week or so now.
[01:53] <Micksa> oh great, amd64 trashed vm86
[01:53] <daniels> Mithrandir: i've been busy fixing your keyboard :P
[01:53] <mjg59> Micksa: http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/5/23/116
[01:53] <mjg59> Micksa: More usefully, http://lkml.org/lkml/diff/2005/5/23/116/1
[01:53] <daniels> plus, I have some reservations about hwinfo
[01:54] <Micksa> mjg59: thanks muchly
[01:54] <mjg59> t
[01:55] <Micksa> now I just have to figure out how to get it into the ubuntu kernel :)
[01:55] <Mithrandir> daniels: that's like the five last minutes, but yes.  :-)
[02:00] <sabdfl> elmo: can we use hutte to test this damn upgrade script on a production snapshot?
[02:00] <sabdfl> my desktop crashed again... and again
[02:00] <elmo> sabdfl: sure
[02:02] <\sh> gentlemen, if lamont shows up, he should ping me
[02:02] <mjg59> sabdfl: You're sure this is related to an upgrade, rather than being bad hardware?
[02:04] <daniels> \sh: try emailing him, dude
[02:05] <tepsipakki> shouldn't rbscrobbler already be on the archive.. uploaded a month ago?
[02:05] <fabbione> hey sabdfl 
[02:06] <Micksa> is there a page on "ubunto kernel package hacking" that someone could point me to? :)
[02:06] <Kamion> tepsipakki: rbscrobbler |   0.0.9r-1 | breezy/universe | source
[02:06] <Kamion> tepsipakki: failed to build on all architectures
[02:06] <fabbione> Micksa: not really.. what do you need to do exactly?
[02:07] <Micksa> add a patch to the kernel and compile
[02:07] <Micksa> preferrably for just the one subarch :)
[02:07] <tepsipakki> kamion: heh, sweet
[02:07] <fabbione> oh you are on #u-k.. let's keep the talk there
[02:07] <Kamion> tepsipakki: it's build-depending on python-dev but doing -I/usr/include/python2.3
[02:08] <Kamion> needs to become python2.4-dev and -I/usr/include/python2.4, probably, but test in a clean chroot to ensure it isn't relying on other things from the unversioned python-dev
[02:08] <tepsipakki> will do, exams suck
[02:12] <elmo> daniels: btw, I have a desktop here where the autoconfig stuff fails to generate a working config (LCD says "out of range"), it's a recent-ish onboard intel gfx, is that already known?  [I remember you told me about something to do with intel and X, but not what] 
[02:12] <daniels> elmo: hrm, out of range shouldn't happen
[02:12] <daniels> elmo: using d-sub or dvi?
[02:12] <elmo> d-sub
[02:13] <daniels> wack
[02:13] <daniels> it doesn't say what frequencies it's trying to use, does it?
[02:13] <elmo> hum, I don't think it did, in the xorg.conf file at least.  helpfully, of course, I've reinstalled it headless
[02:13] <elmo> I'll reinstall X and reproduce
[02:14] <daniels> er, sorry
[02:14] <daniels> i mean the screen when you start X
[02:14] <elmo> oic, no
[02:14] <daniels> ahr, damn
[02:15] <daniels> log would be handy
[02:20] <Micksa> dammit, WTF is pid one taken by "[swapper] "?
[02:20] <Micksa> I can't pivot! :(
[02:28] <sladen> is that swsuspend coming out
[02:44] <elmo> dpkg: ../../main/packages.c:191: process_queue: Assertion `dependtry <= 4' failed.
[02:44] <elmo> Aborted
[02:44] <elmo> kmeh
[02:45] <Mithrandir> why is the cdbs-simple-patchsys so _UTTERLY_ unusable?
[02:46] <daniels> it bites so hard
[02:48] <pitti> Mithrandir: what is so bad about it?
[02:48] <pitti> Mithrandir: cdbs-edit-patch makes it quite nice, at least for me
[02:49] <tepsipakki> kamion: it worked
[02:50] <tepsipakki> -I/usr/include/python2.3/ -> -I/usr/include/python2.4/
[02:51] <Mithrandir> pitti: it blows up when some applications or deapplications fail, then goes "NANANANANA".
[02:51] <pitti> Mithrandir: oh, well, that's why it's called "simple"...
[02:52] <pitti> but that only really hurts without tarball.mk
[02:53] <Mithrandir> pitti: it should be called "unusable" instead.
[02:54] <pitti> hm, works well enough for me, given that it was not actually intended to be used, but only as an example
[02:54] <pitti> Mithrandir: I find dpatch ugly, do you know whether quilt is any better?
[02:55] <pitti> Mithrandir: I only ever used quilt once 
[02:56] <Mithrandir> pitti: quilt gave me headaches last time I looked at it.
[02:56] <pitti> Mithrandir: so what is the best one in your experience?
[02:56] <Mithrandir> pitti: dbs with tarball. :P
[02:57] <Mithrandir> ooo's patch system is also _really_ nice.
[02:57] <Mithrandir> it actually saves a copy of the patch so you can apply patch, edit patch, unapply patch and it works.
[02:59] <Mithrandir> and why did /usr/share/dpatch/dpatch-run suddenly not become executable any more?
[03:02] <pitti> Mithrandir: for me I still get along best with simple-patchsys
[03:02] <pitti> no things you always forget about (patch lists, executable shell snippets, and so on)
[03:03] <pitti> hrmpf, network breakage
[03:03] <pitti> Mithrandir: did you say anything after the "quilt headaches"?
[03:06] <Mithrandir> 14:56 < Mithrandir> pitti: dbs with tarball. :P
[03:06] <Mithrandir> 14:57 < Mithrandir> ooo's patch system is also _really_ nice.
[03:06] <Mithrandir> 14:57 < Mithrandir> it actually saves a copy of the patch so you can apply patch, edit patch, unapply patch and it works.
[03:06] <Mithrandir> 14:59 < Mithrandir> and why did /usr/share/dpatch/dpatch-run suddenly not become executable any more?
[03:06] <pitti> Mithrandir: right, I replied with "maybe dpkg 2 is the final solution -> like dbs, but without the tarball-in-tarball ugliness"
[03:07] <pitti> Mithrandir: I always tend to forget that e. g. warty's dpatch does not yet have dpatch-run
[03:07] <doko> pitti: can dpkg 2 more than one tarball?
[03:07] <pitti> Mithrandir: and I generally find the concept of executable patches ugly; it's a patch, nothing more
[03:07] <pitti> but that's just me maybe
[03:07] <pitti> doko: ask Keybuk :-)
[03:08] <pitti> Mithrandir: dbs with tarball is not bad, but if you like that, cdbs with tarball.mk is the same and you get the cdbs magic
[03:09] <pitti> doko: for now I think that the orig.tar.gz _is_ the tarball which is unpacked in a build-tree/, then the patches are applied
[03:09] <pitti> doko: there is a documentation about the concept of dpkg 2 somewhere
[03:09] <mako> elmo: around?
[03:09] <elmo> mako: yeah
[03:10] <Mithrandir> pitti: well, true, but I would like not to have tarball for small stuff like pyblosxom
[03:10] <pitti> doko: http://www.dpkg.org/NewSourceFormat
[03:10] <pitti> Mithrandir: yes, and at the same time you certainly don't want OO.o's patch system for that :-)
[03:11] <pitti> so dear Mr. dpkg maintainer, give us a system that is sane and makes everybody happy, kthxbye :-)
[03:11] <mako> elmo: so i should really upload these goofy userlinux packages..
[03:12] <Mithrandir> pitti: well, true.  Just the _very nice_ property of saving applied patches and using those to unapply.
[03:12] <pitti> oh, yeah; and a standard script to edit them
[03:13] <Mithrandir> *shrug*; I use emacs. :)
[03:13] <pitti> Mithrandir: I wrote cdbs-edit-patch to make it much less pain 
[03:14] <mako> elmo: it's eezy for breezy.. but mark also wanted them for hoary
[03:15] <elmo> mako: you just need to upload them to 'hoary-updates', but please check  with mdz first that they'll be accepted
[03:16] <mako> elmo: did you ever add my key to the uploaders?
[03:16] <mako> it wasn't there last time i tried
[03:20] <SloMo_> Amaranth: i hacked something together for the smeg localization... do you want to try it?
[03:25] <elmo> mako: done, now, give it 30 or so to prop
[03:26] <mako> elmo: awesome, thanks
[03:40] <tepsipakki> credit?-) actually it was suggested by Kamion, I just tested the build on a clean breezy-chroot =)
[03:40] <tepsipakki> damn...
[03:40] <tepsipakki> wrong window..
[03:48] <Nafallo> dooh
[03:49] <pitti> ah, I already suspected culture :-)
[03:50] <tepsipakki> "chopping" would've been quite disturbing ;)
[03:52] <pitti> bye folks, Carmina Burana awaits me (and some stuff before) :-)
[04:16] <mdke> just did a colony 1 installation on my laptop and it went excellently without a hitch
[04:16] <mdke> :D
[04:32] <Mithrandir> Nafallo: could you please turn off public away?
[04:34] <Nafallo> Mithrandir: done
[05:59] <Lathiat> tseng: indeed
[05:59] <Lathiat> tseng: it also doesnt fuck up on my cpu as much
[05:59] <Amaranth> SloMo_: rock!
[06:00] <Lathiat> tseng: powernwd has a habbit of getting stuck on 600mhz
[06:00] <tseng> Lathiat: yeah when i rip cds it goes back to 600mhz
[06:00] <Lathiat> tseng: which mroe to the point is a kernel drive issue
[06:00] <tseng> and takes forever
[06:00] <Amaranth> SloMo_: Got the emails, I'll look in to it a little more later today.
[06:00] <SloMo_> Amaranth: ok, does it work for you or haven't you tested it so far?
[06:00] <Amaranth> SloMo_: Haven't tested, I'm doing other things right now.
[06:01] <SloMo_> Amaranth: ok, just let me know when something breaks ;) i'll be away the next few hours
[06:47] <adn> hello people
[06:47] <adn> I want to build my package for hoary
[06:48] <adn> hmm, wait, let us read the doc :)
[07:07] <thesaltydog> Kamion, ??
[07:13] <adn> I am the maintainer for Debian's p7zip, and was asked by a user to have a ubuntu version for it
[07:13] <adn> is http://adn.diwi.org/ubuntu/p7zip/ OK?
[07:14] <zul> adn: you might want to check on #ubuntu-adn
[07:14] <zul> sorry...#ubuntu-motu
[07:14] <adn> ok
[07:17] <Micksa> update-pciids isn't going to actually make anything work better huh :)
[07:17] <Micksa> cept lspci
[07:34] <tseng> mako: ping
[07:35] <tseng> mako: id like to schedule a meeting sometime about MOTU-and-Debian.
[07:47] <Micksa> mmmm, throbbing windows
[08:01] <SloMoSnail> Amaranth: you have new mail... just changed one thing, should be ready for inclusion now ;)
[08:02] <Amaranth> SloMoSnail: A user can still just run python setup.py install and have it install with the correct locale, right?
[08:02] <Amaranth> SloMoSnail: Wait, it should install them all, but yeah.
[08:03] <SloMoSnail> Amaranth: right... nothing more is needed for a user
[08:03] <Amaranth> rock
[08:03] <SloMoSnail> Amaranth: but you have to run update-locales.sh whenever you changed/added some strings in your programm
[08:03] <Amaranth> that's fine
[08:04] <SloMoSnail> Amaranth: hopefully this will run under all circumstances... otherwise we probably have to add some checks
[08:05] <Amaranth> still working on some other stuff, will look at it ASAP
[08:06] <SloMoSnail> Amaranth: and we have another build-dep: gettext must be installed... but i think python depends on it also
[08:06] <Amaranth> pbuilder will tell me
[08:07] <SloMoSnail> Amaranth: ok... i'll be away until tomorrow... so when something doesn't work write me a mail or something ;)
[08:07] <Amaranth> ok
[08:20] <lamont> \sh: I'm not here at 6AM most saturdays..
[08:20] <lamont> admittedly, noon is a bit late-ish
[08:22] <\sh> lamont: sorry ;)
[08:23] <\sh> lamont: r u interessted to get your nc6000 runnin properly?
[08:25] <lamont> define "runnin properly" - most things seem to work :-)
[08:26] <\sh> lamont: irda
[08:27] <lamont> ah - irda... I am still looking (these 10 years, it seems) for something I care about that requires working irda on my laptop....
[08:28] <lamont> having said that, I suppose that the purist in me is probably interested in it a little bit.
[08:28] <\sh> lamont: e.g. my nokia 6100 needs to sync with my kaddressbook e.g.
[08:28] <\sh> if my cell breaks, I'm lost..my cell is my pda ;)
[08:30] <lamont> ah, that would tend to make one care more, wouldn't it...
[08:30] <lamont> was it you that said he'd been hacking on the driver but it still wasn't happy?
[08:30] <lamont> brb
[08:30] <\sh> lamont: yes...but now I need someone with nc6000 who could check if a solution is working
[08:33] <lamont> \sh: but testing also requires an irda device...
[08:33] <lamont> although I suppose I could try having my palm send something to it.
[08:35] <\sh> lamont: well, the first step will be, to test if the irda device works at all :)
[08:35] <\sh> lamont: with my first test, modprobe tried to insmod smsc-ircc2 >100 times
[08:36] <lamont> modprobe for what?
[08:36] <\sh> smsc-ircc2
[08:36] <\sh> cause I have no clue where to put the "preinstall" section for modprobe
[08:37] <\sh> there r two solutions
[08:37] <\sh> http://jfenal.free.fr/linux/nc6000.php
[08:37] <\sh> http://people.debian.org/~pxt/nc6000/
[08:37] <\sh> both extra utils are kernel 2.6.x compatible
[08:38] <\sh> but both need to have adjustments...1. parport must be disabled, 2. ttyS2 has to be disabled
[08:39] <lamont> hrm.
[08:39] <lamont> \sh: http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/05/23/21OPopenent_1.html
[08:40] <lamont> that'd be the solution I'd try first... :-)
[08:41] <\sh> lamont: well
[08:42] <\sh> lamont: do i tell u a secret, that the irda maintainer is working at hp?
[08:42] <\sh> lamont: and he didn't fix this issue in the kernel module? ,-)
[08:42] <\sh> lamont: _this_ is really annoying :)
[08:43] <lamont> \sh: I wonder if his boss at HP pays him to work on that module, or if he does it in what little free time is left at the end of the day...
[08:44] <\sh> lamont: HP should if not already 
[08:49] <dooglus> using apt-get to go from hoary to breezy I see a whole load of errors about missing locales.  is that to be expected?
[08:49] <dooglus> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
[08:49] <dooglus> perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings:
[08:49] <dooglus>         LANGUAGE = "en_GB:en",
[08:50] <dooglus>  eventually it gets to 'setting up locales'.  would it be better to do that first?
[08:51] <kent> dooglus, breezy is going to be broken lots of time before it gets stable, even more broken that that ;)
[08:52] <dooglus> kent: sure.
[08:52] <dooglus> kent: I just thought I'd mention it.
[08:52] <dooglus> last I heard even X wouldn't start...
[08:53] <lamont> dooglus: you could always file a bug about the locales errors during upgrade...
[08:54] <dooglus> lamont: i'll do that.
[08:54] <kent> dooglus, I dont dare to use breezy becaus of those problems.  It seem sane to use it when it freezes to perhaps find bugs etc, but during this early time I guess people things change to much.. (but im no expert though..)
[09:43] <calc> daniels: i noticed in -21 you mention a symlink from /usr/lib/X11/xkb -> /etc/X11/xkb but the symlink isn't installed for some reason
[09:46] <calc> very very odd
[09:46] <calc> the file shows like it exists when dpkg -L xlibs-data is run
[09:47] <calc> erm nevermind
[09:47] <calc> its there
[09:48] <calc> sorry for being blind
[09:51] <dooglus> I've got a question about apt-file and dpkg giving different results.  Can you explain the different paths shown here? :
[09:51] <dooglus> root@chrislap:/home/chris # apt-file search bin/mkfontscale
[09:51] <dooglus> xutils: usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontscale
[09:51] <dooglus> root@chrislap:/home/chris # dpkg -L xutils | grep bin/mkfontscale
[09:51] <dooglus> /usr/bin/mkfontscale
[09:55] <tsume> hi there
[09:55] <tsume> is there a patch for the xclients? or a temp hack?
[09:58] <uniq> the temp hack i used was to put exit 0 in the /var/lib/dpkg/info/xbase-clients.postinst (or preinst don't remember which one, but it's printed in the error)
[09:58] <tsume> hmm, okay I'll try. Minute
[09:58] <uniq> it's a evil hack to force it.
[09:59] <tsume> uniq: if I already upgraded to the broken client, what am I supposed to do to fix it? a reconfigure?
[10:01] <uniq> tsume: after editing the file in /var/lib/dpkg/info/ you can run dpkg --configure -a
[10:01] <tsume> uniq: what line did you place the exit 0?
[10:01] <uniq> at the top somewhere.. directly after set -e
[10:02] <tsume> oh :) heh. How dirty
[10:02] <uniq> it's very evil :)
[10:02] <tsume> now I feel filty
[10:02] <uniq> didn't have the time to investigate.. i basically just needed it to check that another package installed cleanly :)
[10:03] <tsume> hmm
[10:03] <uniq> dpkg --configure -a didn't do it? 
[10:03] <tsume> no
[10:04] <tsume> it starts, but X doesn't display anything
[10:04] <tsume> same as before that hack
[10:04] <uniq> hum.
[10:04] <uniq> well.. then the hack is for the wrong problem.
[10:04] <tsume> :) maybe.. its because I'm trying to run 2.6.12?
[10:05] <tsume> frek
[10:05] <uniq> that souldn't be a problem afaik.
[10:05] <tsume> I set the driver back to nv, and now I'm getting errors for font 'fixed' again
[10:06] <uniq> heh.. great.
[10:06] <tsume> I already rebuilt the nvidia driver again, so I didn't think it was that. The fonts are not correct
[10:06] <tsume> uniq: what do your font paths say? :) If you don't mind
[10:07] <uniq> i use a even more ugly hack there.. you don't want to know :)
[10:07] <tsume> I don't care :)
[10:07] <tsume> I'll unhack my system later
[10:07] <tsume> I had the font paths changed, but they keep changing the stupid font paths
[10:07] <uniq> i run breezy in a chroot.. and started xfs on hoary.. and added tcp/127.0.0.1:7100 in breezy to make it start.
[10:07] <uniq> i didn't change the paths.
[10:08] <tsume> it was the paths last time, and I had to change them again
[10:08] <tsume> uniq: lol. I don't like your hack
[10:08] <tsume> I want to know where the font paths are in this current change
[10:08] <uniq> i know. i did that too.. once. i can check the backup of my old breezy /etc
[10:09] <uniq>  /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc  and so on.
[10:09] <uniq> is the last working config i had on breezy.
[10:11] <tsume> ok fixed
[10:11] <uniq> did it work? 
[10:11] <tsume> I needed to run mkfontdir
[10:11] <uniq> ah.
[10:11] <tsume> you need to edit the sh script 'mkfontdir' the program it runs is no longer in /usr/X11R6/bin
[10:11] <tsume> its in /usr/bin
[10:12] <uniq> then i'll unhack one of my changes too :)
[10:12] <tsume> then you make each directory, and Xorg will work again
[10:12] <tsume> Xorg needs the fonts.dir in each font directory, or it won't start
[10:14] <tsume> I'm a mr. know it all when it comes to problems, but some problems don't take 3 minutes like this one
[10:15] <uniq> then i'm mr. make it work fast. :)
[10:15] <uniq> and ugly :)
[10:16] <tsume> heh
[10:16] <tsume> I like fixing instead of hacking
[10:16] <tsume> its so easy compared to your time-wasting-way :)
[10:16] <uniq> as i said, i only needed it installed to test another package.
[10:16] <uniq> didn't commit my change to a cvs or anything :)
[10:16] <tsume> I need the latest and greatest for real work ;)
[10:17] <uniq> i use hoary for real work for now.
[10:18] <tsume> heh
[10:19] <tsume> well, I can't stand bugs in old software
[10:19] <dooglus> tsume: is there a trick to get 'gnome-terminal' working?  It's all black for me.
[10:19] <dooglus> xterm is fine
[10:19] <tsume> minute
[10:19] <tsume> well..
[10:20] <tsume> gnome's cdburning program was broken last time, so I had to install KDE
[10:20] <uniq> tsume: i need a working system until my exams are done.
[10:21] <tsume> the gnome burning tool wouldn't burn all the data to a disc. I had to place less on a DVD or cd for it to burn, like about 550MB when is supposed to hold 700MB
[10:21] <tsume> uniq: breezy works more for me compared to hoary
[10:21] <tsume> I constantly am a person who runs in to bugs.
[10:21] <uniq> i use kde :)
[10:22] <tsume> person.. I guess I could call myself a gremlin. I break software by nature
[10:25] <tsume> dooglus: it works for me
[10:25] <tsume> though.. the text is very unreadable. Could be my res.. buyt everything is blurry
[10:25] <tsume> must be crappy gnome
[10:26] <tsume> they are so behind in code evolution. They are dumb asses for wanting to integrate Mono in the environment
[10:27] <tsume> my card is still running decent... 2250 fps from glxgears
[10:34] <tsume> gnome is basically a big waste of time :)
[10:39] <dooglus> tsume: I guess the problem is that no gnome apps are working at all, just basic X stuff
[10:40] <tsume> dooglus: everything works here..
[10:41] <dooglus> oh, I also don't see the gnome panel, or nautilus, or anything other than the xterms I start from a virtual console.
[10:42] <tsume> dooglus: I'd have to see the system
[10:43] <herve> hi
[10:44] <herve> do I have to replace build deps mesag-dev libosmesa6-dev
[10:44] <herve> or they are still valid packages?
[10:45] <tsume> looks like I use fluxbox until the best desktop is fixed
[10:47] <herve> wasabi, ping
[11:02] <dooglus> interestingly, using kde instead of gnome seems to have fixed almost everything.
[11:03] <tepsipakki> dooglus: my breezy runs fine with gnome..
[11:03] <herve> mine too
[11:04] <tepsipakki> check that all the relevant processes are dead before you login
[11:04] <herve> ha yes
[11:04] <mako> tseng: sounds totally rasonable
[11:04] <herve> that is an issue with gnome
[11:05] <tepsipakki> i had to reboot my laptop today for the first time in two months, and I've been running breezy from the day it was opened ;)
[11:05] <tseng> mako: great, can we set up a time?
[11:05] <tseng> mako: i didnt want to just dictate one :P
[11:05] <tepsipakki> the reason being that the xorg.conf had wrong font-paths and restarting it messed my console (it stilla does, but at least it's usable)
[11:05] <herve> tepsipakki, I doubt laptops are designed to run 24/24
[11:06] <dooglus> when I try running gnome, I just see a completely blank desktop
[11:06] <dooglus> it's a uniform brown though, not the black and white pixels you sometimes see
[11:06] <dooglus> and the CD light on the pc keeps flashing.
[11:06] <tepsipakki> dooglus: are you logging in from gdm?
[11:07] <tsume> heh, well by using fluxbox, I increase my GFX card performance by 50 frames
[11:07] <Mithrandir> tsume: glxgears is not a benchmark.
[11:07] <tseng> holy crap X works.
[11:07] <tsume> Mithrandir: no its not, but it means gnome and kde take too much CPU
[11:07] <dooglus> tepsipakki: I am, yes
[11:07] <tseng> tsume: does it?
[11:08] <tsume> tseng: I just was in gnome. I tried glxgears, and the fps was exactly 2233.600
[11:08] <tseng> why dont you decide cpu usage based on top or ps
[11:08] <Mithrandir> or flipping a coin.
[11:08] <tseng> instead of FPS.
[11:08] <tsume> tseng: I don't want to nice every app I use :P
[11:08] <tseng> i mean that might sound good in a game review hobbyist site.. :P
[11:08] <tsume> well.. with relevence to graphics
[11:08] <tseng> but its not real
[11:09] <tsume> yes it is
[11:09] <tseng> what is gnome cpu usage relevant to graphics
[11:09] <tseng> the work should all be on your GPU
[11:09] <tsume> tseng: no
[11:09] <tseng> thats why you spent all that money on it
[11:09] <tsume> tseng: if that were true, C# would be faster/better for writing games ;)
[11:09] <tseng> erm
[11:09] <tseng> im running glxgears for kicks
[11:09] <tseng> its barely using 20% of my cpu
[11:10] <tseng> which is scaled down to 600mhz
[11:10] <tseng> all the work is on the gpu, thats the entire point of DRI and all that
[11:10] <tseng> "direct"
[11:10] <tepsipakki> dooglus: your session might be screwed somehow. try moving .gnome2/session out of the way
[11:10] <herve> and I thought #u-d was having serious discussions :-)
[11:10] <tsume> barely takes any on mine, which it doesn't matter, The screen still has to maintain the screen
[11:11] <tsume> s/screen/card/
[11:11] <dooglus> tepsipakki: OK.  I'll try rebooting too.
[11:11] <tsume> tseng: you need to think out of the box
[11:11] <tseng> oh man
[11:11] <tsume> tseng: you have tunnel vision
[11:11] <tepsipakki> dooglus: no need to, just make sure no gconfs or gnome* is running
[11:11] <dooglus> there are 2 gconfs running...
[11:11] <tsume> my eyes!
[11:12] <tsume> light blue sucks on a white terminal :)
[11:12] <tepsipakki> dooglus: so logout, wait for a sec and if they are still there, kill them..
[11:12] <herve> dooglus, the b0rked one and the one you tried later
[11:12] <herve> dooglus, rebooting will help cleaning out
[11:12] <dooglus> herve: maybe.  or b0rked one and b0rked two :)
[11:13] <herve> the b0rked twins
[11:13] <herve> the new horror movie!
[11:14] <dooglus> nope, still no good.
[11:14] <tsume> tseng: now.. if I loaded all kinds of apps which had all these pretty effects on the GUI. my framerate would be lower like it should be because the card has to maintain the whole screen, not just the current application
[11:14] <tsume> like having the screen filled with icons which also have AA enabled for the text
[11:14] <herve> big deal
[11:15] <tepsipakki> as if they keep the cpu/gpu busy..
[11:15] <tsume> herve: 50 frames is a big deal here :) 
[11:15] <tepsipakki> a static screen consumes only your eyes
[11:15] <tsume> tepsipakki: no, they don't keep it busy. They just take a bit more to render so the rate drops a bit in gears
[11:15] <tseng> if you were playing a game fullscreen, xdamage wouldnt be updating all your fancy window manager effects
[11:15] <tseng> theyd not be visible
[11:15] <herve> tsume, remember gnome or kde are desktop envs for people working
[11:15] <tseng> so your use case stops at glxgears
[11:16] <herve> not for seeing gears spinning faster and faster
[11:16] <tsume> tseng: heh. If the person doesn't use games? ;)
[11:16] <tseng> tsume: then he needs to turn off the flash whiz bang crap and get back to work, I guess
[11:16] <tepsipakki> the only thing "moving" on my screen is the clock on the panel
[11:17] <tsume> tseng: heh. Well there are some scientific GL based apps.  :)
[11:17] <herve> althought I'd like to see more things like cairo exploiting the capabilities of my graphics card
[11:17] <tseng> tsume: are there scientify GL based candy effects?
[11:17] <tsume> tseng: :)
[11:17] <tseng> s/y/ic
[11:17] <herve> and speeding up screen refresh
[11:17] <tsume> tseng: well, there are a few models which mutate and spin
[11:18] <tsume> they don't take up the whole screen.
[11:18] <dooglus> aaah... it wasn't a b0rked gconfd that was causing problems, but a b0rked nautilus...
[11:18] <tepsipakki> dooglus: yes, it is a gnome-specific process ;)
[11:18] <herve> tseng, let's ask blender folks if their productivity falls within gnome or kde ;-)
[11:18] <herve> dooglus, I thought you rebooter
[11:18] <herve> rebooted
[11:18] <seb128> elmo: around?
[11:19] <tsume> herve: it won't since the desktop isn't showing
[11:19] <elmo> seb128: yes
[11:19] <tsume> herve: unless you're a goob who uses blender in window mode
[11:19] <seb128> elmo: can you sort gtkhtml3.8/main for evo build if that's not sorted yet?
[11:19] <herve> tsume, same in a game, so big deal if glxgears loses 50 frames
[11:19] <dooglus> herve: I am just about to.
[11:19] <seb128> elmo: evo is broken due to eds maj for the moment
[11:19] <tsume> herve: its 50 frames :>
[11:19] <herve> tsume, and you talked about tunnels?
[11:20] <tepsipakki> tsume: in this case about 2%
[11:20] <tseng> herve: and boxes.
[11:20] <elmo> oh god damn
[11:20] <elmo> who pulled in the mono stuff while it depends on insane libgal from the 1700's?
[11:20] <tsume> herve: :> maybe I really need those 50 frames
[11:20] <seb128> not me 
[11:20] <tseng> brandon@lappy:~$ apt-cache depends mono | grep gal
[11:20] <tseng> brandon@lappy:~$ 
[11:20] <herve> tsume, who needs glxgears anyway?
[11:21] <tseng> ?
[11:21] <tsume> herve: 50 extra frames is good if I'm modifying the engine
[11:21] <herve> just run glxinfo to read "direct" or not
[11:21] <elmo>  o gtkhtml3.0: libgtkhtml3.0-4, libgtkhtml3.0-dev
[11:21] <elmo>    [Reverse-Depends: libgnome2.0-cil] 
[11:21] <elmo>    [Reverse-Build-Depends: gtk-sharp] 
[11:21] <elmo> tseng: ^-- which in turn pulls in gal
[11:21] <elmo> (2.0)
[11:21] <elmo> seb128: done
[11:21] <seb128> elmo: thanks
[11:21] <seb128> hum
[11:21] <seb128> we still have gtkhtml3.0?
[11:21] <seb128> WTF
[11:22] <seb128> there is 3.2/3.4/3.6/3.8 since
[11:22] <herve> seb128, I was stuck trying to transition a package using it a while ago :-)
[11:22] <tseng> ok its: libgtkhtml3.0-dev (>= 3.0.10)
[11:22] <tseng> this should be made 3.8 in ubuntu?
[11:23] <seb128> 3.6 or 3.8 yep
[11:23] <tseng> I can do that, np
[11:23] <seb128> 3.8 is really new, 3.6 is the hoary version
[11:23] <seb128> thanks
[11:24] <tseng> so 3.6 then?
[11:24] <seb128> should be fine
[11:24] <dooglus> rebooting and "adduser"ing a new user has allowed me to use gnome.
[11:25] <herve> dooglus, still not your own account?
[11:25] <tseng> libgtkhtml3.6-dev (>= 3.6.0)
[11:25] <tseng> off we go.
[11:25] <dooglus> herve: that's the next thing to try :)
[11:26] <dooglus> herve: my own account is ok without my ~/.gnome2 ...
[11:27] <tseng> elmo: did you process my key yet? i need to upload mono first or this will all just take a dump on ppc
[11:27] <dooglus> herve: and even with my .gnome2.  excellent.  I've no idea why it wasn't working before, but thanks guys.
[11:29] <elmo> tseng: no, and I'm kind of busy with a debian emergency right now, sorry - I'll try and do it later
[11:29] <tseng> elmo: k. i can do it some other time then. thanks for pointing it out
[11:30] <tsume> +o
[11:30] <tseng> here, have a 2% performance hit
[11:31] <tsume> tseng: beagle needs to be rewritten in C++
[11:31] <tseng> C..++?
[11:31] <tsume> C++ :)
[11:31] <tseng> hardly.
[11:31] <tsume> yes
[11:31] <tsume> CLucence is nice ;)
[11:31] <\sh> woot?
[11:31] <\sh> beagle in c++?
[11:32] <tsume> \sh: would be sort of easy since C# is a lower generation of C++
[11:32] <tsume> less features, less power.. so its easy to convert the code
[11:32] <tseng> man could you stop that?
[11:32] <tsume> :)