[12:10] <\sh> now i can go to bed
[12:10] <chris`schnarchen> LOL
[12:10] <chris`schnarchen> me now ;)
[12:13] <herve> ok I'm off
[12:13] <herve> night all
[12:13] <herve> I'll answer later
[12:13] <crimsun> ok, weeend
[12:14] <crimsun> weekend, even. Time for cxxtrans!
[01:15] <plugwash> lamont any chance you could slip fp-compiler and fp-units-rtl (the second one is not actually needed for the build but apt will complain if its not there) package from into the buildd environment so that fpc can build
[01:16] <plugwash> *from debian sid
[01:16] <lamont_r> plugwash: no way in hell
[01:16] <lamont_r> otoh, I can bootstrap fp-compiler for you
[01:17] <lamont_r> plugwash: which architectures should it build on?
[01:17] <lamont_r> (for bootstrapping, we'll do one build using the debian packages, then we'll remove all traces of debian from the chroot, install the bits we just built, and do another build.  the second build is the one we upload.)
[01:18] <plugwash> debian currently has it for i386 powerpc and sparc
[01:18] <lamont_r> ok.  I'll bootstrap i386 and ppc, I expect fabbione can get around to sparc sometime
[01:19] <lamont_r> which source package is this?
[01:20] <lamont_r> ah, fpc
[01:20] <lamont_r> interestingly, PaS has i386 powerpc, not sparc..  Hence sparc is not autobuilding
[01:21] <lamont_r> which would explain why it's out-of-date
[01:22] <plugwash> PaS?
[01:22] <lamont_r> Packages-arch-specific, the file that controls what packages the buildd's try to build
[01:23] <lamont_r> there.  now the debian sparc buildd will actually try to build it tomorrow sometime.
[01:24] <lamont_r> hrmpf... 80% of my poor machine's time is in wait states, 3% is user space
[01:24] <plugwash> your a debian developer as well as a ubuntu one?
[01:24] <lamont_r> plugwash: yes
[01:25] <lamont_r> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=lamont@debian.org
[01:26] <lamont_r> hrm.. that reminds me...
[01:30] <Amaranth> aren't most of the ubuntu developers?
[01:36] <plugwash> btw what exactly is multiverse?
[01:36] <plugwash> is it the equivilent of debians contrib/non-free?
[01:39] <koke> who is in the security team?? (apart from pitti)
[01:42] <Amaranth> um
[01:42] <Amaranth> i think the maintainers handle their own security updates
[02:01] <koke> Amaranth: security uploads are managed by the security team
[02:01] <koke> but it seems it's pitti + his shadow :)
[02:08] <plugwash> btw how long is security support on ubuntu
[02:09] <plugwash> with such a fast release cycle i can't imagine you can hold off long before upgrading
[02:11] <tseng> for universe it is one release cycle (6 months)
[02:11] <tseng> for main its 18 months
[02:11] <tseng> or 3 releases.
[02:13] <plugwash> thats from when the version in question is released?
[03:18] <blahrus> hey all
[04:23] <ajmitch> hi
[04:24] <mgalvin> hi
[04:30] <mgalvin> in the control file the uploaders field is just "Uploaders:" right?
[04:32] <blahrus> hey all
[04:34] <ajmitch> mgalvin: yes, although it's not really necessary for ubuntu
[04:37] <mgalvin> ajmitch, ok thnx, just needed to know b/c today I became the new maintainer for the libcwd package which has been uploaded to debian through its previous maintainer (my new debian sponsor) madduck, so I am adding him as an uploader
[04:37] <ajmitch> ok
[04:57] <tseng> hi ajmitch.
[05:05] <tseng> hm was i supposed to upload some kind of beagle fixage
[05:06] <tseng> oh libmono0-dev
[05:07] <|QuaD-> how does that fix beagle?
[05:07] <tseng> er thats not the fix
[05:07] <tseng> thats the problem, more or less
[05:07] <|QuaD-> oh :)
[05:07] <tseng> upstream developers dont seem to realize that you cant rely on libfoo.so
[05:07] <|QuaD-> thats why there are stability issues with beagle?
[05:07] <tseng> we have that in -dev packages
[05:08] <tseng> so I need to go back and make patches to force libfoo.so.x.y
[05:08] <|QuaD-> ok
[05:08] <tseng> and kick upstream around a bit.
[05:08] <tseng> the culprit is stuff in libmono-dev atm
[05:08] <ajmitch> dllmap crack?
[05:08] <tseng> yes
[05:08] <tseng> totally shithouse
[05:08] <tseng> novell should know this stuff
[05:09] <tseng>  /usr/lib/libMonoPosixHelper.so.0 vs /usr/lib/libMonoPosixHelper.so
[05:10] <ajmitch> yeah I had the same issue with pnet
[05:10] <tseng> pnet has libMono?
[05:10] <tseng> :P
[05:10] <ajmitch> no, just requiring a map
[05:10] <tseng> um
[05:10] <tseng> grep -R PosixHelper * give me nothing
[05:37] <crb> Hi all.
[05:38] <crb> Should I mention problems with universe here or straight to launchpad?
[05:44] <mgalvin> crb, whats the problem, if its a bug, then yes stick it in launchpad
[05:45] <crb> The version of a couple of debs doesn't match the filenames in universe.  Not a bug against the program, just the package/s.  libxml-libxml-perl & libxml-libxml-common-perl.
[05:47] <mgalvin> is it in hoary or breezy
[05:47] <crb> hoary
[05:49] <mgalvin> well, it will probably not be fixed for hoary since its non-critical, it can surely be fixed for breezy, i would say just open a bugs for them in launchpad and someone will fix em, i'll take a peak at them when I get a chance
[05:50] <crb> i've thrown one in (or at least tried, malone complained a little) and I'll install the files manually
[05:50] <crb> but I imagine the debs are OK, and its just the Packages file is out of sync?  Are they regenerated every so often?
[05:59] <mgalvin> well, new come over from debian once and a while, but the packages are only rebuilt when fixes are made, not sure if that answers your question
[06:00] <mgalvin> that particular issues must not have gotten fixed
[06:00] <crb> I'm familiar with repos and packaging - the problem sounds like it's in the repo, not in the package, if you see where i'm coming from.
[06:03] <mgalvin> i got ya now, sorry its midnight here ;=/
[06:06] <mgalvin> well the mirror i hit to grab packages from seems to be broken, argh
[06:08] <mgalvin> what is the version diff u r seeing?
[06:08] <crb> http://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/910/
[06:11] <mgalvin> ok, well the mirrors seem to be not working right now which may be the problem
[06:11] <mgalvin> i am seeing the same thing here against the us mirror
[06:16] <ajmitch> hello crb
[06:16] <crb> nz doesn't really have a mirror, I think it goes straight to archive. which is in the UK?
[06:16] <crb> hey ajmitch
[06:16] <ajmitch> yep
[06:17] <ajmitch> they just put in the country codes for future expansion
[06:17] <mgalvin> this is the actual package on the server
[06:17] <mgalvin> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/libx/libxml-libxml-perl/libxml-libxml-perl_1.56-6_i386.deb
[06:17] <ajmitch> I don't know why the Packages file would get out of sync for haory, as it should be frozen
[06:18] <ajmitch> probably something elmo has to fix up
[06:18] <ajmitch> crb: how's life up north?
[06:20] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: can you attempt to package that ultimate stunts game?
[06:20] <crb> ajmitch: cold and windy
[06:20] <mgalvin> |QuaD-, sure, what was the url again?
[06:21] <ajmitch> we managed to have a bit of snow here yesterday
[06:21] <crb> mgalvin: yeah, i've installed it already
[06:21] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: http://www.ultimatestunts.nl/
[06:27] <crb> ajmitch: you run mythtv?
[06:27] <mgalvin> crb, ok, sorry i couldn't be more helpful
[06:27] <crb> np, i was more just trying to alert
[06:29] <mgalvin> |QuaD-, thnx, i'll take a crack at packing it up
[06:29] <ajmitch> crb: nope, I don't have a card for it
[06:29] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: no no no, thank you!
[06:30] <blahrus> anyone aware of where libavifile is at? or maybe why it isn't is breezy atm?
[06:40] <blahrus> nm, they are still working on moving it to gcc4
[06:42] <ajmitch> possibly
[06:42] <ajmitch> I see libavifile-0.7
[06:48] <blahrus> there we go
[06:52] <blahrus>   drip: Depends: libavifile-0.7c102 (>= 1:0.7.38.20030710-1.1) but it is not installable
[06:52] <blahrus> guess the need to fix drip
[06:57] <ajmitch> yup
[06:57] <ajmitch> apps need to be recompiled, and they will be
[06:58] <ajmitch> but not until the libs are done, afaik
[07:00] <Unfrgiven> hi all
[07:01] <ajmitch> hi Unfrgiven
[07:01] <blahrus> whats up
[07:01] <Unfrgiven> blahrus: im good
[07:01] <Unfrgiven> how r u
[07:02] <blahrus> not to bad
[07:02] <blahrus> got x working this afternoon so i am happy again :)
[07:02] <blahrus> wish memcoder was working
[07:02] <blahrus> wanted to mess with dvd ripping again
[07:04] <Unfrgiven> blahrus: what was the prob with x?
[07:06] <blahrus> fonts and symlink issues
[07:07] <blahrus> I hate hacking around on a system, but I guess its one of the best ways to learn
[07:10] <mgalvin> |QuaD-, i got all of its deps tracked down, i think
[07:10] <mgalvin> |QuaD-, and i got it to compile cleanly and run
[07:10] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: it sounds like you are about to add a but
[07:10] <blahrus> everytime I use acidrip I get an error code 139 with mencoder
[07:11] <mgalvin> :) on hoary though, and since its a cpp app, i don't if it'll work on breezy yet
[07:11] <blahrus> VDecoder init Failed :(
[07:11] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: :(
[07:11] <blahrus> this is in hoary not beezy btw
[07:16] <mgalvin> |QuaD-, and sound isn't working, but i think I can fix that
[07:16] <crimsun> sound can be a beast
[07:16] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: i noticed that was a weird dependency.... sdl
[07:17] <mgalvin> and it uses openAL for sound by default which i installed, but in the conf file the section seems to only have FMOD options
[07:18] <mgalvin> i have to play with it a bit
[07:18] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: take your time... i can't use it until uploads for c++ packages resume to breezy
[07:19] <|QuaD-> mgalvin: thanks for the good work :) bedtime for me
[07:19] <|QuaD-> ttyl
[07:19] <mgalvin> |QuaD-, same here, l8r
[07:19] <mgalvin> good night all
[10:35] <abelli> ciao Gods,
[10:35] <abelli> is breezy usable?
[10:41] <uniq> don't think so.. X is randomly breaking atm.
[10:41] <abelli> uniq: thx
[10:57] <\sh> morning
[10:57] <chris`duschen> morning \sh
[10:58] <chris`duschen> uniq, my X is working :-)
[11:03] <uniq> chris`duschen: it'll probably break soon :)
[11:04] <uniq> i have x running too.. but it needes some work.
[11:28] <\sh> morning ivoks
[11:32] <ivoks> hi
[11:32] <ivoks> nice...
[11:32] <ivoks> sarge -> hoary -> breezy -> hoary
[11:32] <ivoks> without reboot :)
[11:33] <chris`wikiwork> LOL!
[11:38] <ivoks> ok, time for cxx
[11:46] <ivoks> :(
[11:46] <ivoks> http://www.libranet.com/
[11:46] <ivoks> :(
[12:03] <ivoks> Mithrandir: ping
[12:06] <DanielN> ivoks: some time to spend for a review? ;)
[12:08] <ivoks> DanielN: sure
[12:09] <ivoks> DanielN: where is source?
[12:09] <DanielN> ivoks: http://marissa.ath.cx/daniel/archive/breezy
[12:09] <DanielN> ivoks: on MOTUNewPackages too!
[12:10] <ivoks> when?
[12:11] <DanielN> yep
[12:12] <ivoks> what's with debian_stuff/?
[12:12] <ivoks> that's in upstream?
[12:13] <ivoks> dir should be called when, not when_dist
[12:14] <DanielN> ivoks: yep, is in upstream .. and the dir is called when_dist from upstream too
[12:14] <ivoks> oh, upstream packaged this?
[12:14] <ivoks> errr... debianized?
[12:15] <DanielN> no, i began from scratch again
[12:15] <Mithrandir> ivoks: pong
[12:15] <Mithrandir> ivoks: don't /quit from irc all the time. :P
[12:15] <ivoks> Mithrandir: :)
[12:15] <ivoks> Mithrandir: i would need couple of packages on ravel... :)
[12:16] <Mithrandir> postgresql-dev chrpath done
[12:16] <ivoks> DanielN: from scratch? that diff doesn't look like you did
[12:16] <ivoks> Mithrandir: automake too
[12:16] <Mithrandir> ivoks: which automake?
[12:16] <ivoks> Mithrandir: sec..
[12:17] <ivoks> Mithrandir: it doesn't specify version... i guess ^automake$ then :)
[12:17] <DanielN> ivoks: i mean that i didn't use the debian files from upstream
[12:17] <DanielN> ivoks: debian_stuff is going to be deleted by patch!
[12:17] <ivoks> DanielN: ah, right... you changed man :)
[12:18] <ivoks> err.. Makefile :)
[12:18] <DanielN> ;)
[12:18] <Mithrandir> ivoks: you need kde stuff?
[12:18] <ivoks> Mithrandir: no
[12:19] <Mithrandir> good
[12:19] <ivoks> Mithrandir: giflib-dev lib3ds-dev ccache - this three too :) please... :)
[12:19] <Mithrandir> ok, automake1.4 installed.
[12:19] <ivoks> thanx
[12:20] <ivoks> DanielN: Section: unknown - that's wrong
[12:20] <ivoks> DanielN: you should specify some Section
[12:21] <DanielN> ok .. which one would be suitable?
[12:21] <ivoks> that's perl script?
[12:21] <DanielN> yep
[12:21] <ivoks> utils would be good
[12:22] <DanielN> ok, thanks ivoks .. i would fix that :)
[12:22] <DanielN> i'll
[12:22] <ivoks> wait... there is more :)
[12:22] <DanielN> ..
[12:22] <ivoks> Description starts with when is...
[12:22] <ivoks> not When is...
[12:22] <ivoks> and doesn't end with '.'
[12:23] <ivoks> and... initial release can't include "cleaning debian/" :)
[12:23] <DanielN> ah .. ok
[12:24] <ivoks> it's first release, you didn't clean previous release :)
[12:24] <DanielN> ;>
[12:24] <DanielN> ok, clear now for me, tx
[12:25] <ivoks> leave out (DNE) from MAINTAINER_NAME
[12:25] <ivoks> only name ans lastname goes there
[12:25] <DanielN> argh yeah, i found it right now, that i zhaven't changed this in the Makefile
[12:26] <DanielN> ;>
[12:26] <ivoks> hm..
[12:27] <ivoks> bigest issue
[12:27] <ivoks> when_dist must be when-1.0.23
[12:28] <DanielN> hm..
[12:28] <ivoks> and one more thing...
[12:28] <ivoks> you never patch that Makefile
[12:28] <DanielN> mhm.. why not?
[12:28] <ivoks> you defined patch:
[12:29] <doko> DanielN: ping
[12:29] <ivoks> but you didn't tell .PHONY to run it :)
[12:29] <DanielN> ivoks: err.. that needs some explanation now :)
[12:29] <DanielN> doko: pong
[12:30] <doko> DanielN, did you see my comments on the C++ libs, you are working on?
[12:30] <DanielN> doko: if you're Matthias Klose, then yep :)
[12:30] <ivoks> :))
[12:31] <doko> DanielN: ok, fix it ;-)
[12:31] <DanielN> doko: i've fixed cppopt already .. you can take a look
[12:32] <ivoks> DanielN: in debian/rules, line 98
[12:32] <ivoks> DanielN: binary: patch binary-indep binary-arch
[12:32] <DanielN> doko: with debdiff now ;)
[12:32] <DanielN> ivoks: ah ok.. but the patch commands at beginning of debian/rules must be there too?
[12:33] <ivoks> DanielN: you defined patch "function"
[12:33] <ivoks> DanielN: but you never run it
[12:33] <DanielN> ahhhh
[12:33] <doko> DanielN: where is libcppopt0_c2_patch.diff
[12:33] <ivoks> DanielN: you must run it before building :)
[12:33] <ivoks> DanielN: and you can leave out unpatch :)
[12:33] <DanielN> ivoks: ok thanks
[12:34] <DanielN> doko: mhm.. ??
[12:34] <ivoks> DanielN: work on that and then i'll check it again...
[12:34] <ivoks> Mithrandir: ping :)
[12:34] <DanielN> ok .. thanks for your tipps
[12:34] <Mithrandir> ivoks: yes?
[12:34] <doko> +patch: patch-stamp
[12:34] <doko> +patch-stamp:
[12:34] <doko> +	dh_testdir
[12:34] <doko> +
[12:34] <doko> +	patch -p1 < debian/patches/libcppopt0_c2_patch.diff
[12:34] <doko> +
[12:34] <doko> +	touch patch-stamp
[12:34] <doko> +
[12:34] <ivoks> Mithrandir: giflib-dev lib3ds-dev ccache - please :)
[12:34] <tseng> hi Mithrandir.
[12:34] <doko> DanielN, where is this file?
[12:35] <DanielN> doko: mhm.. i should put it in debian/patches
[12:35] <DanielN> but then i must do 2 diffs
[12:35] <DanielN> :/
[12:35] <Mithrandir> ivoks: done
[12:35] <ivoks> Mithrandir: :* :)
[12:36] <ivoks> Mithrandir: i guess you don't have /usr/lib/X11/Xlib.h :)
[12:37] <doko> DanielN: no, just use debdiff. And I'm wondering why you need a patch at all ...
[12:37] <DanielN> hrmpf
[12:37] <DanielN> to rename it, i thought
[12:37] <ivoks> ?
[12:38] <DanielN> doko: i think, no the big AHA is comming
[12:38] <ivoks> DanielN: you have to rename it
[12:38] <DanielN> ivoks: talking about what now?
[12:38] <Mithrandir> ivoks: Xlib.h should not be in lib; I'm kinda busy now so if it's not something kinda urgent, please hold it.
[12:39] <ivoks> DanielN: same thing doko is
[12:39] <DanielN> doko: i just rename it normally and create a debdiff of it, without apply a patch in any kind.. LOL.. missunderstanded that
[12:39] <ivoks> Mithrandir: it's ok... not urget, i'll investigate that...
[12:39] <DanielN> but right now?
[12:43] <ivoks> doko: one question... in the end, Xlib.h will be in /usr/lib/X11 or only in /usr/X11R6/include/X11 ?
[12:44] <doko> DanielN, sounds ok
[12:44] <DanielN> doko: ok, then it's burned in my brain now, how transition works, thanks :)
[12:44] <doko> ivoks, ask daniels, I don't know his plans. But I assume, it will be in /usr/include/X11
[12:45] <ivoks> doko: thanks
[12:48] <Mithrandir> oh, hi tseng.  Sorry, busybusy.
[12:48] <tseng> heh, nps
[12:49] <tseng> i have to try to package .net 2.0 preview stuff for doko today
[12:49] <ajmitch> sleep time, night all
[12:49] <tseng> ironpython is written with all that crap
[12:58] <ivoks> doko: stutilsxx is ready for upload [ https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11083 ]  builds on amd64 and i386 (tested)
[01:06] <DanielN> ivoks: how should i handle it, to rename when_dist to when-1.0.23 ?
[01:06] <ivoks> yes
[01:07] <ivoks> mv when_dist when-1.0.23
[01:07] <ivoks> :)
[01:07] <DanielN> in Makefile?
[01:07] <ivoks> DanielN: you should read http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/
[01:07] <DanielN> ivoks: i'm working with this document, yep
[01:08] <ivoks> DanielN: then open section 2.3
[01:09] <DanielN> k
[01:10] <DanielN> ivoks: but i moved it to when-1.0.23
[01:11] <ivoks> ok, let's go from start...
[01:11] <ivoks> d/w source package
[01:11] <DanielN> yep
[01:11] <doko> ivoks: looks fine, but please attach one patch covering both fixes. the new diff is not complete.
[01:11] <ivoks> untar it
[01:12] <ivoks> doko: ok (but ubuntu1 is up allready...)
[01:12] <ivoks> DanielN: untar it
[01:13] <ivoks> DanielN: it will create when_dist directory, right?
[01:13] <DanielN> yeah... and this one i renamed to when-1.0.23 before beginning packaging work
[01:13] <ivoks> DanielN: enter it, and do: dh_make -e your.email@address -f ../when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:14] <DanielN> done it like that ivoks!
[01:14] <ivoks> ok
[01:14] <DanielN> :/
[01:14] <ivoks> now untar that when-1.0.23
[01:14] <ivoks> now untar that when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:14] <ivoks> it will create when-1.0.23 dir
[01:14] <DanielN> ah
[01:14] <ivoks> not when_dist
[01:15] <ivoks> DanielN: now, that's your source on top of which you create your package
[01:15] <DanielN> ivoks: ok.. another '?' is cleaned out now :)
[01:15] <ivoks> it's signed and has correct naming
[01:15] <\sh> grmpf
[01:22] <doko> ivoks: sure, but we should have a patch, which we can forward to debian
[01:23] <ivoks> doko: ok, it's up (nice to hear it would be sent to debian)
[01:23] <DanielN> ivoks: that doesn't work like you said! the upstream tarball: when.tar.gz -> when_dist mv when-1.0.23 -> dh_make -e ba@ba.b -f ../when.tar.gz
[01:23] <ivoks> DanielN: ?
[01:24] <DanielN> gives when_1.0.23.orig.tar.gz -> still when_dist
[01:24] <ivoks> DanielN: tar xvfz when.tar.gz && mv when_dist when-1.0.23 && cd when-1.0.23 && dh_make -e YOUR@EMAIL -f ../when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:24] <ivoks> copy paste that
[01:25] <ivoks> change only your email
[01:25] <DanielN> ivoks: i've done it like that.. vut there isn't a ../when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:25] <\sh> grmpf
[01:26] <DanielN> so i get an error, that the upstream tar isn't there ;)
[01:26] <ivoks> \sh: problems? :)
[01:26] <\sh> yes
[01:26] <\sh> ivoks: please read http://people.debian.org/~pxt/nc6000/ the part about irda...and tell me what I'm doing wrong...
[01:26] <\sh> i removed parport and the serial ports
[01:27] <\sh> installed this toshiba util, it's initializing my irda port, but modprobe smsc-ircc2 doesn't work
[01:27] <ivoks> DanielN: mv when.tar.gz when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:27] <ivoks> DanielN: tar xvfz when-1.0.23.tar.gz && mv when_dist when-1.0.23 && cd when-1.0.23 && dh_make -e YOUR@EMAIL -f ../when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:28] <DanielN> ivoks: ok, i'll test it
[01:28] <ivoks> \sh: depmod -a?
[01:29] <\sh> ivoks: no
[01:29] <ivoks> \sh: so, you buit modul and install it
[01:30] <ivoks> now it doesn't come up?
[01:30] <\sh> ivoks: it's not an module...toshiba thingy is extra app
[01:30] <ivoks> ?
[01:31] <\sh> and smc-ircc2 is module for kernel 2.6 (it's already there)
[01:31] <ivoks> modprobe smc-ircc
[01:31] <ivoks> ?
[01:31] <DanielN> ivoks: sorry, but i think you're wrong.. if i do it similar to your hint above, the .orig.tar.gz still gives a when_dist and not a when-1.0.23
[01:31] <ivoks> ok
[01:31] <ivoks> DanielN: and what about when-1.0.23.tar.gz?
[01:31] <ivoks> DanielN: where did i mention .orig.tar.gz?
[01:32] <DanielN> ivoks: mhm.. now you're making me diffused... the target is to provide an orig.tar.gz with when-1.0.23 instead of when_dist, right>?
[01:33] <ivoks> DanielN: no, objective is to provide when-1.0.23 with when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:34] <DanielN> hm
[01:34] <DanielN> but then there will be never a tarball without when_dist
[01:34] <ivoks> \sh: i don't get it... modprobe smsc-ircc2 uploads module or not?
[01:34] <\sh> yes...but freezes the kernel
[01:34] <ivoks> DanielN: ?
[01:34] <\sh> or better it tries to install many of them
[01:34] <ivoks> \sh: ah... :)
[01:35] <DanielN> ivoks: i mean, that when_dist don't become when-1.0.23
[01:36] <ivoks> DanielN: man...
[01:36] <ivoks> DanielN: there is allready source package of when on upstream site
[01:36] <ivoks> DanielN: why don't you use it?
[01:37] <ivoks> it has errors, tough...
[01:37] <DanielN> ivoks: yep
[01:37] <ivoks> when_1.0.23.orig.tar.gz - should be when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:37] <DanielN> mhm
[01:37] <ivoks> DanielN: http://www.lightandmatter.com/when/when_1.0.23-debian-source.tar.gz
[01:38] <DanielN> well.. i'm such a fuck diffused now.. think packaging isn't something for me :/
[01:38] <ivoks> \sh: kernel errors are hard to discover over irc :)
[01:38] <ivoks> DanielN: relax :)
[01:39] <\sh> ivoks: it's not a kernel error :(
[01:39] <\sh> it's a user to stupid error...
[01:39] <ivoks> \sh: it is if module freezes kernel
[01:39] <\sh> ivoks: no..modprobe -v shows me, that it's tries to load many instances of smsc-ircc2
[01:39] <ivoks> DanielN: ok, let's do original when.tar.gz, step by step... i'll do it with you
[01:39] <\sh> and that breaks my mem
[01:39] <ivoks> :)))
[01:40] <DanielN> ivoks: no no.. spend your time to something more important.. i'm fucked of to package something at this time now.. but thanks ;>
[01:40] <ivoks> DanielN: don't give up
[01:40] <ivoks> DanielN: i said same thing not long ago :)
[01:41] <DanielN> ivoks: i don't give up.. but i'm pissed a bit off right now
[01:41] <DanielN> :)
[01:41] <ivoks> DanielN: you choosed fscking package :)
[01:41] <ivoks> DanielN: but it isn't hard
[01:41] <ivoks> look
[01:42] <DanielN> ivoks: yeah, but i thought that when is a easy stuff to start ;)
[01:42] <ivoks> DanielN: first package is allways hard
[01:42] <DanielN> ivoks: clearly ;)
[01:43] <ivoks> DanielN: tar xvfz when.tar.gz
[01:43] <ivoks> DanielN: mv when_dist when-1.0.23
[01:44] <DanielN> yep
[01:44] <ivoks> DanielN: tar -cf when-1.0.23.tar when-1.0.23
[01:44] <ivoks> DanielN: gzip -9 when-1.0.23.tar
[01:44] <ivoks> DanielN: cd when-1.0.23
[01:44] <DanielN> aaaaaaaaargh :)
[01:44] <ivoks> DanielN: dh_make -e you@email.address -f ../when-1.0.23.tar.gz
[01:45] <DanielN> ivoks: why you didn't say that earlier that i have to create the tar.gz manually... cleared out much now
[01:45] <ivoks> DanielN: heh :)
[01:46] <ivoks> DanielN: point is... you have to have source archive <package>-<version>.tar.gz
[01:46] <DanielN> k
[01:46] <ivoks> DanielN: that extracts to <package>-<version>
[01:46] <DanielN> ivoks: yep.. i'm understanding now. and from this tar, the orig.tar.gz will be created
[01:46] <ivoks> DanielN: problem is that author did <package>.tar.gz that extracts to <package>_dist.tar.gz
[01:47] <ivoks> silly, IMHO
[01:47] <ivoks> DanielN: no
[01:47] <DanielN> yep
[01:47] <ivoks> DanielN: that is your source tar.gz
[01:47] <DanielN> mhm
[01:47] <ivoks> DanielN: you will not have .orig.tar.gz
[01:47] <ivoks> pardon :)
[01:47] <DanielN> ivoks: mmm.. but i thought that a orig.tar.gz is a _must_
[01:47] <ivoks> you will
[01:48] <ivoks> you will not have when-1.0.23.orig directory :)
[01:48] <ivoks> DanielN: i type faster then i think :)
[01:48] <DanielN> omg
[01:48] <DanielN> diffused again now
[01:48] <ivoks> what?
[01:49] <DanielN> so i'll hzave an orig.tar.gz now or i don't?
[01:49] <ivoks> DanielN: yes
[01:49] <DanielN> aha
[01:49] <ivoks> DanielN: when you do dpkg-buildpackage
[01:49] <DanielN> mhm.. but isn't that a native package then?
[01:49] <ivoks> DanielN: it will create .dsc, .diff.gz and .orig.tar.gz
[01:50] <ivoks> DanielN: error :)
[01:50] <ivoks> DanielN: dh_make created .orig.tar.gz
[01:50] <DanielN> yeah
[01:50] <ivoks> DanielN: dpkg-buildpackage will not do that :)
[01:50] <DanielN> ...
[01:50] <ivoks> yeah, i hate doing 5 things in the same time :)
[01:51] <DanielN> ivoks: no one said to you that you have to do 5 things at same time ;) as your choice
[01:52] <\sh> it's time to reinstall my b0rked ubuntu install :(
[01:53] <ivoks> ?
[01:53] <DanielN> ivoks: so i can follow your steps with creating this source tar?
[01:54] <\sh> ivoks: i broke everything :) in german i say all the time "Ich hab zu viel gefrickelt"
[01:54] <DanielN> \sh: :))
[01:55] <ivoks> you have to much <some word i don't understand> :)
[01:55] <ivoks> DanielN: you have source now, now edit/fix debian/*
[01:56] <ivoks> since i downgraded breezy to hoary, my fonts are... hm... wierd :)
[01:59] <\sh> now i can build my shelf
[02:02] <DanielN> now i can build my tte :)
[02:26] <spacey> \sh, did you check nexiuez?
[02:29] <spacey> \sh, the -glx version doesn't start properly here, and the -sdl version is slow like ****
[02:29] <spacey> :)
[02:30] <\sh> spacey: not now..
[02:30] <\sh> i have to figure out some other problems first
[02:30] <ivoks> like he's ubuntu installation :)
[02:30] <ivoks> again... he's :)
[02:30] <ivoks> his
[02:30] <\sh> ivoks: well..just now ;)
[02:31] <\sh> but i just finished my shelfs
[02:31] <\sh> shelves even
[02:31] <\sh> two of them
[02:32] <spacey> \sh, sure, thats all i had to say anyway :)
[02:32] <\sh> spacey: u tried to compile the stuff?
[02:32] <spacey> \sh, no, i'll try that, i just used to precompiled binaries atm
[02:54] <herve> morning
[02:54] <ivoks> herve: hi
[03:04] <tepsipakki> hi, there's a fairly trivial fix needed for rbscrobbler to build (trayicon/Makefile: -I/usr/include/python2.3/ -> -I/usr/include/python2.4/). the build-deps also need to be changed to python2.4-dev
[03:04] <tepsipakki> I've tested this
[03:05] <tepsipakki> so.. how to get this fix in?
[03:06] <herve> let me check
[03:28] <\sh> re
[03:32] <herve> Amaranth, I see smeg hited the archive ;-)
[03:37] <herve> tepsipakki, how should I credit you for the fix?
[03:37] <herve> real name, email?
[03:40] <tepsipakki> credit?-) actually it was suggested by Kamion, I just tested the build on a clean breezy-chroot =)
[03:40] <herve> hehe, ok
[03:42] <Nafallo> herve: credit cjwatson or something ;-)
[03:43] <herve> Nafallo, done :-)
[03:43] <herve> still 5 min until I downloaded the build deps
[03:49] <herve> I would like to talk a walk
[03:49] <herve> but the weather is strange
[03:49] <herve> shopping sounds nice too :-)
[03:56] <DanielN> yes! when should be fine now :)
[03:58] <herve> tepsipakki, uploaded, thanks!
[03:59] <herve> DanielN, remind me to review your package when I come back
[03:59] <herve> see you later
[04:06] <tepsipakki> herve: thank _you_!
[04:22] <DanielN> \sh: when should be perfect now, if ivoks is right with his hints :)
[04:32] <uniq> hmm.. can anyone confirm that libxml-sax-expat-perl is uninstallable in hoary?
[04:32] <uniq> 404
[04:32] <uniq> http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/download.pl?arch=all&file=pool%2Funiverse%2Flibx%2Flibxml-sax-expat-perl%2Flibxml-sax-expat-perl_0.37-3_all.deb&md5sum=e430e4a9f8926fe83e8589e810f9575b&arch=all&type=main
[04:32] <uniq> 404 on all the mirrors i've tested.
[04:33] <uniq> it's in the packages file though.
[04:34] <uniq> it leaves libxml-simple-perl, gnuift-perl and most important docbook2x uninstallable.
[04:35] <uniq> the source doesn't exist either.. http://packages.ubuntu.com/hoary/source/libxml-sax-expat-perl
[04:36] <DanielN> uniq: seems that you're right! but here: http://www.artfiles.org/ubuntu.com/archive/pool/universe/libx/libxml-sax-expat-perl/libxml-sax-expat-perl_0.37-3_all.deb there it is :)
[04:36] <uniq> i know, i have it already.. it's just that it's broken in hoary.
[04:37] <DanielN> mhm..
[04:38] <DanielN> you should talk to a MOTU
[04:39] <uniq_> argh.. my ipv6 is unstable.. :/
[04:45] <uniq> finally stable.. xs26 ipv6 service isn't very stable.
[04:45] <uniq> danieln: that's why i posted my message in this channel -motu :)
[04:46] <\sh> ok..now I'm back in action
[04:46] <\sh> well just now
[04:48] <uniq> \sh: hi, i've got work for you - read back please :)
[04:48] <\sh> ??
[04:50] <uniq> libxml-sax-expat-perl is uninstallable in hoary
[04:50] <uniq> 404
[04:50] <uniq> even though it's in the packages file.
[04:50] <uniq> can't download the source either http://packages.ubuntu.com/hoary/source/libxml-sax-expat-perl
[04:51] <uniq> and you get 404 on most of the mirrors http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/download.pl?arch=all&file=pool%2Funiverse%2Flibx%2Flibxml-sax-expat-perl%2Flibxml-sax-expat-perl_0.37-3_all.deb&md5sum=e430e4a9f8926fe83e8589e810f9575b&arch=all&type=main
[04:51] <uniq> that breaks libxml-simple-perl, gnuift-perl and most importantly docbook2x.
[04:55] <Amaranth> woo, smeg made it
[05:00] <\sh> uniq: hmmm
[05:00] <\sh> uniq: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/libx/libxml-sax-expat-perl/
[05:01] <uniq> that's -2
[05:01] <uniq> and i have the package, i don't need it. universe just needs to be fixed.
[05:04] <\sh> hmmm2
[05:04] <\sh> it has a meaning that it is not there anymore
[05:04] <uniq> well, update the Packages file then :)
[05:05] <\sh> nono...officially it's not there
[05:05] <\sh> anymore
[05:05] <uniq> apt-get thinks -3 is there because it is in the Packages file, when -2 is, apt-get doesn't automagicaly failover and install -2. it must be specified.
[05:06] <uniq> and -2 isn't in the Packages file at all.
[05:06] <uniq> so users can't even force the version with =version
[05:09] <\sh> Riddell: ping
[05:09] <uniq> don't think he's around.
[05:20] <siretart> hi
[05:22] <siretart> is some java guru here? I need to install jboss. whats the recommended way to install on hoary?
[05:59] <DanielN> welcome back, ivoks :)
[06:00] <ivoks> hi
[06:00] <DanielN> ivoks: you should review when again, should be fine now :)
[06:01] <ivoks> :)
[06:02] <ivoks> ok... let's see...
[06:03] <DanielN> ;>
[06:04] <ivoks> i can't open URL on MOTUNewPackages
[06:04] <ivoks> server down?
[06:04] <ivoks> http://marissa.ath.cx/daniel/archive/breezy doesn't work
[06:05] <tseng> worksforme
[06:05] <\sh> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUNewPackages
[06:05] <ivoks> now it works for me too
[06:05] <ivoks> i'm so pissed
[06:05] <ivoks> :(
[06:06] <DanielN> ivoks: marissa.ath.cx doesn't work?
[06:06] <ivoks> works now
[06:06] <DanielN> fine :)
[06:09] <ivoks> again, you don't do patching
[06:09] <ivoks> you added patch on wrong place :)
[06:09] <ivoks> when you build binary, it calls binary function
[06:10] <ivoks> this one calls binary-indep
[06:10] <ivoks> which calls build and install
[06:10] <ivoks> non of these calls patch
[06:10] <\sh> ??
[06:11] <ivoks> \sh: :)
[06:11] <DanielN> ivoks: but i added patch do PHONY
[06:11] <DanielN> as you said
[06:11] <ivoks> DanielN: not to .PHONY, but to binary:
[06:11] <ivoks> DanielN: I said look at line 97
[06:11] <ivoks> DanielN: i even pasted here how it whould look like
[06:11] <\sh> right
[06:11] <\sh> the patch call needs to be before configure target
[06:11] <ivoks> yes
[06:12] <\sh> so configure: patch configure-stamp
[06:12] <ivoks> and unpatch after clean
[06:12] <DanielN> ivoks: ok, i'll check that later, the horse entrecote is just finished :)
[06:12] <\sh> clean: unpatch yeah
[06:12] <\sh> horse?
[06:12] <DanielN> pferdeentrecote :)
[06:12] <ivoks> DanielN: one more thing
[06:12] <DanielN> yep?
[06:12] <ivoks> dpkg-gencontrol: warning: unknown substitution variable ${shlibs:Depends}
[06:13] <ivoks> you don't have .shlibs
[06:13] <tseng> we are starting to add alot of NEW packages
[06:13] <tseng> this isnt scalable
[06:13] <\sh> u mean a real "pferd"?
[06:13] <tseng> we should have a meeting about it.
[06:13] <ivoks> so you can't put Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}
[06:13] <DanielN> \sh: yeah? whatelse
[06:13] <ivoks> DanielN: same thing with misc
[06:13] <\sh> DanielN: nice :)
[06:13] <\sh> tseng: we need RT
[06:13] <tseng> RT?
[06:13] <\sh> request tracker
[06:13] <tseng> no, we dont
[06:13] <ivoks> i agree
[06:14] <\sh> this wiki stuff is not good enough for package tracking
[06:14] <tseng> we need the packages to go to Debian with sponsors
[06:14] <ivoks> and one more thing...
[06:14] <tseng> or someone to take them over.
[06:14] <ivoks> we shouldn't add every app that is out there
[06:14] <Burgundavia> tseng, https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/809
[06:14] <ivoks> and I agree - we should/must cooperate with Debian
[06:15] <tseng> we dont need better tracking for new packages, we need to not add so many locallyh
[06:15] <\sh> ajmitch: ping ! sponsor uploads now ;)
[06:15] <ivoks> for that we should stop flamewar on debian-lists, and start productive conversation
[06:15] <tseng> that are going to be added in Debian with an ITP
[06:15] <tseng> ivoks: what flamewar?
[06:15] <tseng> I work with debian devels every day
[06:16] <\sh> tseng: and how long should we gonna wait?
[06:16] <tseng> half of cannonical is DDs
[06:16] <ivoks> tseng: you don't know? :)
[06:16] <tseng> \sh: wait for what?
[06:16] <tseng> ivoks: is this something new, or the same couple people with a stick up their ass
[06:16] <\sh> tseng: wait for integration in debian?
[06:16] <\sh> tseng: wnpp is full of requests...
[06:16] <ivoks> tseng: Subject: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?
[06:17] <tseng> \sh: how many with good packages?
[06:17] <\sh> tseng: oh there r some...
[06:17] <tseng> anyway the problem is this
[06:17] <tseng> i package XYZ new mono package
[06:17] <\sh> too many packages, too less people, too much governance overhead @debian?
[06:17] <tseng> then i find an ITP for it by some DD who doesnt know anything about mono
[06:17] <tseng> and its all wrong.
[06:18] <tseng> i have to explain to him why and fix the package
[06:18] <ivoks> tseng: do we need to fill ITP?
[06:18] <tseng> we should be filing the ITPs
[06:18] <ivoks> :)
[06:19] <tseng> still after daniel and andrew review it
[06:19] <tseng> then we wont have problems with merging, see
[06:19] <ivoks> true
[06:20] <Burgundavia> \sh, I think the last, and possibly even the appearance of the last in the most important
[06:20] <\sh> tseng: i'll give u an example
[06:20] <\sh> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=286203
[06:20] <tseng> wow, useful one
[06:20] <\sh> tseng: well, what is usefull?
[06:21] <tseng> boo
[06:21] <tseng> if you want proof, 3 people packaged it
[06:21] <\sh> tseng: when the user are downloading and compiling those things by themself, is it useful then?
[06:21] <\sh> right
[06:21] <\sh> and this guy, who opened this bug, is pissed
[06:21] <ivoks> as I understand, when one fills ITP, one has to wait for it's approval?
[06:22] <tseng> he can be pissed, but it stands that its a volunteer project
[06:22] <tseng> if the software is lame, no one will want to pick it up
[06:22] <\sh> i can take over his whole repos and upgrade all packages to whatever I want
[06:22] <tseng> but we arent doing NEW stuff for a bunch of ugly themes
[06:22] <tseng> its cool new Gnome software that people want
[06:22] <\sh> hahahaha
[06:22] <ivoks> ok... here is idea
[06:22] <uniq> and KDE stuff :)
[06:22] <Amaranth> boo?
[06:22] <tseng> boo.
[06:22] <Amaranth> i've always wanted to play with that
[06:23] <tseng> yep
[06:23] <ivoks> we package software and fill ITP
[06:23] <ivoks> we don't have to wait for Debian
[06:23] <Amaranth> nice mix of python and C#
[06:23] <tseng> ivoks: yes.
[06:23] <tseng> MOTU should not be a fork
[06:23] <\sh> sh*t i'm waiting for my pizza
[06:23] <tseng> as the thread says
[06:23] <ivoks> cause, they'll have ITP and that package will be used in debian too
[06:23] <tseng> yep.
[06:23] <ivoks> but meanwhile, it can be in ubuntu
[06:23] <tseng> and we'll be there first or work with the guy who was
[06:23] <ivoks> so, it would be one big source repository for all debian derivates
[06:23] <tseng> to make sure we dont have bad merges
[06:24] <ivoks> yeah
[06:27] <tseng> zwiki login is annoying
[06:27] <tseng> it has 0 persistance
[06:27] <Amaranth> oddly this session saver extension for firefox adds persistance
[06:28] <Amaranth> well, not oddly, i guess
[06:28] <Amaranth> it's supposed to just remember what tabs you had open, i guess it remembers their state and etc too
[06:28] <\sh> hmmm...
[06:28] <Amaranth> smeg has been uploaded and in on the mirrors, could be removed
[06:28] <tseng> i movedit to uploaded
[06:29] <\sh> can someone give me a gmane link to this thread?
[06:29] <Amaranth> well, i did that right after ajmitch uploaded it
[06:29] <Amaranth> but i didn't know what to do with the reviews
[06:29] <tseng> er
[06:29] <ivoks> \sh: moment...
[06:30] <tseng> im moving them to uplaoded
[06:30] <Amaranth> any reason MOTUNewPackages can't be scrapped for malone?
[06:30] <ivoks> \sh: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/05/msg00000.html
[06:30] <ivoks> \sh: no, that's wrong one... sec
[06:31] <ivoks> \sh: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/05/msg01438.html
[06:32] <ivoks> tseng: so, no new packages untill we settle this up with debian?
[06:32] <tseng> i cant make that decision all by myself
[06:32] <tseng> but im getting sick of conflicting packages in ITP
[06:33] <ivoks> i agree
[06:33] <ivoks> tseng: is that topic for TB?
[06:33] <tseng> On the other hand, I've had packages for which ubuntu has moved to a
[06:33] <tseng> newer upstream version without properly updating the debian/ files,
[06:33] <tseng> resulting in packages that are severely broken (some to the point of
[06:33] <tseng> unusability), with my name listed as maintainer.
[06:33] <tseng> uh?
[06:34] <tseng> i dont understand this email at all
[06:35] <ivoks> it means that someone repackaged whole thing
[06:35] <ivoks> and left DD as maintainer
[06:35] <Burgundavia> pure hatred --> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/05/msg01468.html
[06:37] <ivoks> DanielN: your diff should compleetly remove debian_stuff out of source
[06:37] <ivoks> DanielN: but then you are maintainer of that package
[06:40] <\sh> *shakinghead*
[06:41] <ivoks> \sh: :)
[06:43] <ivoks> 3:1 nice :)
[06:43] <ivoks> http://live.index.hr/ :)
[06:43] <Treenaks> SCARY animation..
[06:43] <Treenaks> mozilla seems to want attention
[06:44] <ivoks> lol... IIS crashed :)
[06:44] <ivoks> no live anymore :))
[06:45] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, what is this panel stuff that people keep talking about?
[06:45] <Lathiat> Burgundavia: heh (@d-d
[06:45] <tseng> this is all so silly
[06:45] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: open firefox (which will take a while), then focus something else
[06:46] <tseng> we leave attribution in the form of a changelog
[06:46] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, that is only flame I see on that whole thread, so I am very happy
[06:46] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: watch the panel pulsate when the window is mapped
[06:46] <tseng> and we note out own changes also in the changelog
[06:46] <tseng> wtf would we change the Maintainer field in every package
[06:46] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, focus on something?
[06:46] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: "window wants attention"
[06:46] <\sh> tseng: the thing is, we're doing now their work for sarge+1
[06:46] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: in hoary it'll just be bold. in breezy it's bold and it pulsates
[06:46] <ivoks> we should all stop for a minute and organise this
[06:47] <ivoks> otherwise ubuntu will become fork and it wouldn't have enough people to be this good
[06:47] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, huh? I am felling very stupid!
[06:47] <\sh> and when they have access to our bugzilla etc. and transistion list they have to get the packages and merge the changes
[06:47] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: When a window wants attention, the indicator for that window in the window switcher in the panel will be bold, right?
[06:48] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: in breezy, it's not just bold, it slowly fades strangely as well
[06:48] <\sh> ivoks: what do u think how many months mandrake needed to be a real fork of redhat?
[06:48] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, hmm, ok
[06:48] <tseng> \sh: years.
[06:48] <Burgundavia> there are still mdk packages that install on redhat
[06:48] <Burgundavia> at least my old RH8 did
[06:49] <ivoks> \sh: and where is mandrake now?
[06:49] <ivoks> dead
[06:49] <ivoks> :)
[06:49] <\sh> ivoks: no
[06:49] <Lathiat> Burgundavia: rofl @ tollefs its a spoon
[06:49] <\sh> ivoks: they have their user base
[06:49] <\sh> ivoks: so will ubuntu
[06:50] <ivoks> \sh: that wouldn't be good
[06:50] <ivoks> debian is big great base on top of wich is easy to work
[06:50] <\sh> ivoks: why not? do u think progeny will stay close to debian?
[06:50] <ivoks> if we fork, you can forget about 6 month cycle
[06:50] <\sh> ivoks: we forked already...
[06:51] <ivoks> we should stop
[06:51] <\sh> ivoks: we're quite faster
[06:51] <ivoks> imho
[06:51] <\sh> ivoks: we are at least sarge+1 and how long did it take debian to try a release after woody?
[06:51] <Treenaks> \sh: progeny will stay VERY close to Debian (that's what Ian wants)
[06:52] <\sh> i mean, no offense against debian, they do really good work
[06:52] <jaldhar> \sh the two situations are really not comparable
[06:52] <Treenaks> and don't forget that ubuntu has "buzz"
[06:52] <Treenaks> Debian Sarge will sounds like "Hey, they finally released?"
[06:52] <\sh> Treenaks: that's what ian wants, but what about his user? if the user wants to be much better and faster, then he has to take action and take over debian ;)
[06:52] <Treenaks> Progeny will sound like "Oh no, more Debian"
[06:52] <tseng> ok well i want to talk to daniel and ogra
[06:52] <tseng> my ideas have 0 to do with this thread
[06:52] <tseng> i hadnt even read it until today
[06:52] <Treenaks> this is not about the firewall flamewar, is it?
[06:53] <tseng> and we should have a meeting.
[06:53] <\sh> Treenaks: no
[06:53] <tseng> Treenaks: no?
[06:53] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, progeny will ship 2.10, only the 3rd distro to do so
[06:53] <Treenaks> tseng: ubuntu-devel ml
[06:53] <tseng> Treenaks: i told stunned he was wrong, and the other guy was right but an ass
[06:53] <tseng> Treenaks: so i think it will go away
[06:53] <tseng> yes?
[06:53] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: after ubuntu and suse, yes
[06:54] <\sh> They generally don't. Ubuntu considers it more effective to spend
[06:54] <\sh> their time on PR to make people think they are giving stuff back, than
[06:54] <\sh> to actually do it; it generates more 'goodwill', since most people
[06:54] <\sh> won't bother to check. This thread will probably become a good
[06:54] <\sh> example, most of the others did.
[06:54] <\sh> Andrew Suffield
[06:54] <Amaranth> Treenaks: Are you talking about how the contrast on the window list changes to make it look like things are pulsing?
[06:54] <\sh> hmmm
[06:54] <\sh> i have an idea
[06:54] <Treenaks> Amaranth: it already looks that way in breezy
[06:54] <Amaranth> Treenaks: I know.
[06:54] <jaldhar> \sh: oh that's just Andrew Suffield :)  He rarely has a good thing to say about anything
[06:54] <\sh> we collect all patches and changes from bugzilla etc. put them into one big tar.gz and send them to the debian-devel-ml
[06:54] <Treenaks> Amaranth: and it's cool :)
[06:54] <Amaranth> just making sure i'm thinking of the same thing
[06:54] <Amaranth> yeah
[06:55] <ivoks> \sh: :)
[06:55] <Amaranth> \sh: They'll kill us.
[06:55] <Amaranth> WebCore vs KHTML, but on the distro level
[06:55] <jaldhar> \sh: I think mosts DDs do want to cooperate with Ubuntu its just a question of what is the right way
[06:55] <Burgundavia> Treenaks, I see why I never see it. I only have one app per virtual desktop
[06:55] <\sh> Amaranth: yeah, but they have their "give back and thanks for the fish"
[06:55] <Treenaks> we (MOTU) at least should file/fix Debian bugs as well as Malone bugs
[06:55] <Treenaks> imho
[06:55] <Treenaks> and send patches, etc.
[06:55] <Treenaks> then "they" can't say we're not helping
[06:55] <Amaranth> does sid have gnome 2.10?
[06:55] <jaldhar> I think all MOTUS should also join the Debian new maintainer process
[06:55] <Treenaks> Amaranth: experimental does
[06:56] <Treenaks> Amaranth: sid has .8
[06:56] <Treenaks> Amaranth: uh.. sarge
[06:56] <Amaranth> it might not be too late to get my patch for gnome-menus in there
[06:56] <Lathiat> jaldhar: thats stupid
[06:56] <jaldhar> Lathiat: why?
[06:56] <DanielN> ivoks: so i put a "patch" to configure?
[06:56] <DanielN> sorry
[06:56] <Lathiat> jaldhar: if im a motu who just pets some packages to work properly on ubuntu, theres no reason for me to become a dd
[06:56] <DanielN> could you write that again, i don't have the chatlog, ivoks
[06:57] <Lathiat> jaldhar: esp since, for example, i wouldnt have a package to maintain to make me a dd for a start
[06:57] <ivoks> DanielN: you can do that too, yes
[06:57] <Lathiat> jaldhar: and i might not have the time to do this
[06:57] <Amaranth> who wrote the blog entry on patching with cdbs and debhelper?
[06:57] <Lathiat> jaldhar: or agree with debains policies, or whatever
[06:57] <ivoks> DanielN: configure: patch configure-stamp
[06:57] <Lathiat> jaldhar: i do howevver, think people who are uploading (new, non-debian) packages to ubuntu should if possible try to get involved with debian
[06:57] <DanielN> ok.. and i leave the other patching stove above?
[06:57] <DanielN> paching stuff i mean
[06:58] <ivoks> DanielN: who wrote that control for you? :)
[06:58] <DanielN> dh_make
[06:58] <DanielN> :)
[06:58] <ivoks> DanielN: you define patch "function" with "patch: "
[06:58] <jaldhar> Lathiat: that's a very short-sighted attitude.  Unless the package you are working on is so inconsequential it does not interact with any other you need to be involved with the OS has a whole
[06:58] <ivoks> DanielN: it isn't executed untill you call it from configure or build
[06:59] <Lathiat> jaldhar: its not
[06:59] <jaldhar> Lathiat: that's the difference between a distro and a CD full of shovelware
[06:59] <Lathiat> jaldhar: if all im doing is petting packages to work on ubuntu
[06:59] <DanielN> ok, so i have to add patch to configure and leave the rest as it is.. thx ivoks.
[06:59] <Lathiat> jaldhar: or fixing Cxx stuff
[06:59] <ivoks> DanielN: then you have to say to configure: "function" that you would like it to call patch: function, before it exec it self
[06:59] <Lathiat> i would be absoltely no use as a DD
[06:59] <Burgundavia> jaldhar, Ubuntu is much easier to get a pcakge into, please don't make it arbitrarily harder, for no real gain
[06:59] <Lathiat> because none of it applies to debian
[06:59] <\sh> DanielN: info make :)
[06:59] <Lathiat> and part of becoming a DD is packaging something
[06:59] <Lathiat> i dont have anything to package
[06:59] <ivoks> DanielN: so you define configure: with configure: patch configure-stamp
[06:59] <Lathiat> (afaik anyway, ic ould be wrong)
[06:59] <jaldhar> Burgundavia: and thats your goal?  More packages or better packages?
[06:59] <DanielN> ivoks: ok.. wati i'll fix it
[06:59] <ivoks> DanielN: in configure-stamp: you define all other non-patching related configurations
[07:00] <DanielN> ivoks: can i erase Depends completely?
[07:00] <ivoks> DanielN: NO!
[07:00] <DanielN> :P
[07:00] <Burgundavia> jaldhar, more and better, they are not exclusive
[07:00] <DanielN> then leave it blank or what?
[07:00] <Burgundavia> jaldhar, I want packages that flow into the distro faster
[07:00] <ivoks> DanielN: does your package depends on perl?
[07:00] <ivoks> DanielN: it does.
[07:01] <ivoks> DanielN: then, put Depends: perl (>= 5.0.0)
[07:01] <\sh> I agree with Burgundavia
[07:01] <jaldhar> Burgundavia: but note I didn't say don't do anything for ubuntu until you've passed Debian new maintainer process, only that you should go through it
[07:01] <ivoks> so..
[07:01] <\sh> jaldhar: and then?
[07:01] <DanielN> ivoks: argh.. have that in build-deps...
[07:01] <DanielN> ivoks: ok
[07:01] <ivoks> just fill ITP, send it to debian
[07:01] <ivoks> and put it in ubuntu
[07:01] <jaldhar> \sh: and then you will be able to work better with Debian and vice-versa.  Everyone wins
[07:02] <Burgundavia> jaldhar, I only dable in the package process, and have no interest in maintaining a program for a long time, ala debian
[07:02] <ivoks> then DD will know package allready egxist and will contact you
[07:02] <ivoks> DanielN: build-deps are something different
[07:02] <ivoks> DanielN: build-deps are packages you need to build your program
[07:02] <ivoks> DanielN: so, you don't need perl there
[07:02] <\sh> jaldhar: well, there is one reason I don't want to play with debian in the first way, and this is the "old system of blabla"
[07:02] <jaldhar> Burgundavia: so in answer to my earlier question you prefer quantity to quality.
[07:03] <ivoks> DanielN: Depends: are packages that you program needs so it could work
[07:03] <ivoks> DanielN: you need perl there
[07:03] <\sh> jaldhar: i don't like discussions about "is this license correct for debian?" or "is ubuntu a fork or what" or "ian said: "Progeny" on his blog...kill him"
[07:03] <Burgundavia> jaldhar, as I said before, they are not mutally exclusive
[07:04] <ivoks> \sh: that's why we need to cooperate
[07:04] <jaldhar> \sh: everyone goes through that phase.  You'll grow out of it.  Even gentoo is putting the brakes on a little bit as people actually start using them for serious stuff
[07:04] <DanielN> ivoks: patch: patch-stamp
[07:04] <DanielN> patch-stamp:
[07:04] <DanielN>         dh_testdir -i
[07:04] <DanielN>         patch -p1 < debian/patches/when_1.0.23_p1.diff
[07:04] <DanielN>         touch patch-stamp
[07:04] <DanielN> unpatch: unpatch-stamp
[07:04] <DanielN> unpatch-stamp: patch-stamp
[07:04] <DanielN>         dh_testdir -i
[07:04] <ivoks> ?
[07:04] <DanielN>         patch -p1 -R < debian/patches/when_1.0.23_p1.diff
[07:04] <DanielN>         rm -f patch-stamp
[07:04] <\sh> ivoks: it has nothing to do with "coorperate"
[07:04] <jaldhar> \sh: as for the mailing lists, ignore most of whats said there
[07:04] <DanielN> ivoks: configure: patch configure-stamp
[07:04] <DanielN> configure-stamp:
[07:04] <DanielN>         dh_testdir -i
[07:05] <DanielN> is that ok so?
[07:05] <ivoks> DanielN: don't paste
[07:05] <ivoks> DanielN: yes, that's good
[07:05] <DanielN> ok
[07:05] <jaldhar> \sh: the real talk is going on behind the scenes but you need to be on the inside to see it
[07:05] <\sh> jaldhar: "serious" stuff is something else...I can go on with the distribution and I can give the userbase quality
[07:05] <DanielN> i'll put it on then
[07:05] <\sh> jaldhar: and gentoo is another story...i don't want to talk about it
[07:05] <ivoks> DanielN: fix debian/control too
[07:06] <DanielN> yep, done
[07:06] <\sh> jaldhar: the mailinglist is not important :)
[07:06] <ivoks> DanielN: and remove debian_stuff
[07:06] <ivoks> DanielN: you have double files...
[07:06] <DanielN> ivoks: debian_stuff should be removed via patch
[07:06] <jaldhar> \sh: debian-devel, mostly not.  Other lists are more productive but like I said a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes
[07:08] <\sh> jaldhar: right...but there is a big difference between "debian" and the rest of the "world"
[07:08] <ivoks> DanielN: no
[07:08] <ivoks> DanielN: it should be in package's diff
[07:08] <ivoks> DanielN: that patching source you are doing with patch: function is stoopid :)
[07:08] <DanielN> ok, so i simply delete it in the source top?
[07:08] <\sh> jaldhar: it's extreme in their "thinking"
[07:09] <ivoks> DanielN: remove patch: and unpatch:
[07:09] <ivoks> DanielN: and just change that Makefile
[07:09] <ivoks> and other changes
[07:09] <DanielN> ivoks: this patching stuff comes from \sh ;)
[07:09] <ivoks> i'm sure you missheard him :)
[07:09] <DanielN> ivoks: but i shouldn't edit the upstream stuff without patch?
[07:10] <DanielN> right?
[07:10] <jaldhar> \sh: um I'm a Debian developer and I'm talking to you.  So it can't all be extreme can it?
[07:10] <ivoks> DanielN: you aren't!
[07:10] <ivoks> DanielN: orig.tar.gz will allways be upstream's source
[07:10] <ivoks> diff.gz will contain your changes
[07:10] <DanielN> aha
[07:10] <DanielN> lol
[07:10] <\sh> jaldhar: do not take it personal...it has nothing to do with the people personally
[07:11] <ivoks> it's silly to patch a program, and that patch will just create another patch
[07:11] <DanielN> ok
[07:11] <DanielN> so i remove all patching stuff
[07:11] <ivoks> IMHO, we should have one basic list/bugzilla for all debian derivates
[07:11] <DanielN> and simply rm -r debian_stuff/
[07:11] <ivoks> launchpad is good start
[07:11] <ivoks> DanielN: yes
[07:12] <DanielN> ok thanks a lot my dear ;)
[07:12] <jaldhar> \sh: oh no I understand.  I'm just saying there are some extreme parts and some not. Don't give up on the whole thing just because of a part
[07:12] <ivoks> it would be silly to package same thing twice!
[07:12] <\sh> jaldhar: but there are a mass of narrow-minded people, who don't want to improve, and want to deal with unix 0.1 ;) and in the end, i was introduced to many of those narrow-minded
[07:13] <\sh> but I can change :)
[07:13] <ivoks> \sh: true, but, look it this way... aren't all people in USA monkeys, just because their president is :)
[07:13] <\sh> ivoks: no :)
[07:13] <\sh> ivoks: just like not all frenchmen will eat frogs ;)
[07:13] <ivoks> there should be good will from ubuntu and debian side
[07:14] <jaldhar> \sh: that's unfortunate.  All I can do is repeat that there are many in debian who do want to work with Ubuntu and other deriavatives/forks/whatever
[07:14] <ivoks> we should work together as much is possible
[07:14] <ivoks> but not mix distributions
[07:14] <\sh> ivoks: yeah...and my last bugreport is now 4 days old
[07:14] <tseng> ivoks: eh I already do it.
[07:14] <adn> hello
[07:14] <jaldhar> ivoks: right on!
[07:14] <ivoks> \sh: the point is
[07:14] <ivoks> you fix bug in debian
[07:14] <\sh> jaldhar: see, and I want/try to work with ubuntu, gentoo, fedora and debian together
[07:14] <ivoks> but tell them about it
[07:15] <adn> I am the maintainer for Debian's p7zip, and was asked by a user to have a ubuntu version for it
[07:15] <adn> is http://adn.diwi.org/ubuntu/p7zip/ OK?
[07:15] <ivoks> u see..
[07:15] <ivoks> this is stoopid
[07:15] <ivoks> why shouldn't one be able to take sarge package and install it on hoary?
[07:15] <tseng> ivoks: because of differnt versions of key libraries?
[07:16] <jaldhar> \sh: yes Debian may not be the world as you said, but for Ubuntu it is all the continents and half the oceans :-)
[07:16] <tseng> thats hardly stupid.
[07:16] <ivoks> tseng: but those diffs aren't that different
[07:16] <tseng> adn: hi!
[07:16] <ivoks> tseng: look at sarge <-> hoary transition
[07:16] <adn> tseng: hi!
[07:16] <\sh> jaldhar: in the end we're working for opensource, to rule da world ;)
[07:16] <tseng> adn: what happens in the begining of an ubuntu cycle is, every package from debian is synced over
[07:16] <ivoks> whole thing is so meesed up beacuse one has libc6-X.Y.Z-qwert1 and other libc-X.Y.Z-qwert1.1
[07:17] <tseng> adn: if your package is in Sid, it will automatically appear in our next release
[07:17] <adn> here is scrolling what I was just reading on debian-devel@ :)
[07:17] <adn> tseng: oh, then no need for me to worry about it, right?
[07:17] <adn> ok, great!
[07:18] <tseng> adn: if you want to work directly with ubuntu you are always welcome to join us, but you dont have to worry about manually syncing things in most cases.
[07:18] <adn> and when is the next cycle?
[07:18] <tseng> the final release will be in October.
[07:18] <ivoks> truth is that debian becomed one big fat distro
[07:19] <adn> tseng: you mean have p7zip in ubuntu's main?
[07:19] <ivoks> with lots of packages unmaintained correctly and even more useless
[07:19] <tseng> adn: it will be in universe
[07:19] <adn> by me working directly with ubuntu
[07:19] <tseng> adn: *is* in universe rather.
[07:19] <adn> tseng: yes, cycle => universe
[07:19] <adn> but "to work directly with ubuntu" => main?
[07:19] <tseng> no.
[07:19] <adn> ok
[07:19] <tseng> things dont often move to main
[07:19] <ivoks> jaldhar: debian should first clear it's trenches, and ubuntu it's
[07:20] <tseng> but we now have a team supporting universe, so it will continually improve in quality
[07:20] <adn> ok, then how could I help with p7zip? :)
[07:20] <tseng> adn: keep rocking as the debian maintainer is the easiest :)
[07:20] <ivoks> adn: you did allready
[07:20] <adn> not having an ubuntu by myself :
[07:20] <adn> :)
[07:20] <adn> ok, thanks, then
[07:20] <tseng> we benefit from your work for free
[07:20] <tseng> so thank you.
[07:20] <adn> you're welcome :)
[07:20] <ivoks> adn: would you like to recive ubuntu's patches for your package?
[07:21] <adn> ivoks: I would be very very happy
[07:21] <ivoks> ok..
[07:21] <ivoks> another idea
[07:21] <adn> but isn't people/scott/ enough?
[07:21] <ivoks> all patches we do in debians packages
[07:21] <DanielN> ivoks: it's up and fixed
[07:21] <ivoks> we should put them in debian/patches/ dir
[07:21] <adn> ok
[07:21] <jaldhar> adn: btw, you can set up pbuilder to create packages under Ubuntu if you want to do some basic testing
[07:21] <ivoks> we would change only changelog
[07:22] <ivoks> and rest of the stuff would be in one file
[07:22] <adn> jaldhar: yes, that is how I made those on http://adn.diwi.org/ubuntu/p7zip/
[07:22] <\sh> now
[07:22] <\sh> i will build a debian pbuilder env
[07:22] <ivoks> this way, that one file would be easy to review by DD
[07:22] <\sh> and start with packages not in debian, to put them in debian :)
[07:22] <adn> ivoks: OK, then I'll have a frequent look on people/scott to find patches if there are
[07:22] <ivoks> adn: sec..
[07:22] <adn> ok
[07:23] <ivoks> adn: this is idea :)
[07:23] <ivoks> adn: we should figure out something to make it easier for all of us
[07:23] <adn> I think so, too
[07:23] <ivoks> i think new packages in ubuntu should be reported to debian
[07:24] <adn> exactly
[07:24] <ivoks> but not over ITPs
[07:24] <ivoks> cause that sucks
[07:24] <tseng> er?
[07:24] <ivoks> :)
[07:24] <tseng> you think you are going to get a fasttrack because you are ubuntu?
[07:24] <adn> ivoks: then how?
[07:24] <ivoks> ?
[07:24] <tseng> go the same route as everyone else
[07:24] <jaldhar> ivoks: if keybuks page had an RSS feed it would save a lot of time manually checking it
[07:24] <adn> if not ITP?
[07:24] <tseng> thats fair
[07:24] <ivoks> not fasttrack
[07:25] <adn> you'll have to find a sponsor...
[07:25] <ivoks> ok, ITP would be fine
[07:25] <\sh> jaldhar: keybuks page?
[07:25] <ivoks> RSS feeds would be nice too
[07:25] <jaldhar> maybe Ubuntu devs who are also Debian devs could be permanent sponsors
[07:25] <jaldhar> \sh: scott remnants patches page
[07:26] <\sh> jaldhar: ah you mean this MoM?
[07:26] <adn> jaldhar: it could be a way
[07:26] <adn> but sponsorship is not intended to be a "semi-automated" process
[07:27] <adn> then they do are the deb maintainers for those packages
[07:27] <adn> for example creating a pkg-ubuntu project
[07:27] <adn> for debian
[07:27] <ivoks> lol
[07:27] <adn> backporting the ubuntu new packages to debian
[07:27] <ivoks> that one would end up in ubuntu too :)
[07:28] <adn> :)
[07:28] <ivoks> agree
[07:28] <ivoks> debian would need to work on colaboration too
[07:28] <ivoks> it isn't one way proces
[07:28] <adn> yup
[07:28] <jaldhar> ivoks: definitely not
[07:28] <ivoks> someone said here, let's gzip all patches and send on devel-list
[07:29] <ivoks> we should provide means for you to easily download patch
[07:29] <ivoks> but i don't think we should send them to you
[07:29] <ivoks> filling ITP and provide RSS feeds should be ok, right?
[07:29] <ivoks> ITP for new packages...
[07:30] <ivoks> RSS feeds for patches
[07:30] <tseng> eh we dont need to make decisions now, we need to have a MOTU meeting
[07:30] <adn> every maintainer should have the right to choose the way (rss, mail, bts, ...)
[07:30] <ivoks> tseng: sure, just considering options
[07:30] <jaldhar> ivoks: It would be ok for me.  But could there be a subscription system so if you did want mailing you could?
[07:30] <tseng> this could be part of launchpad
[07:30] <ivoks> yes
[07:30] <ivoks> launchpad is great for that
[07:31] <tseng> but it would have to offer the debian maintainer some reason he'd want to sign up
[07:31] <Amaranth> so we don't totally fork away from him? :D
[07:31] <tseng> eh that is our problem not his
[07:32] <tseng> unless we are fixing bugs in his package
[07:32] <tseng> i always work iwth the same group of packages
[07:32] <ivoks> why would that be fork?
[07:32] <tseng> i know all my debian maitnainers
[07:32] <tseng> so..
[07:32] <tseng> if i change something, i tell them
[07:32] <ivoks> if ubuntu developer changes something
[07:32] <tseng> and we coordinate changes back and forth
[07:32] <tseng> i sync with them, they sync with me
[07:32] <ivoks> why shouldn't DD apply that cnage too?
[07:32] <ivoks> yes
[07:32] <ivoks> everybody happy
[07:33] <ivoks> development goes faster
[07:33] <tseng> yes, happy with me
[07:33] <tseng> the rest of MOTU is apparantly pissing people off
[07:33] <tseng> not blaming anyone on either side
[07:33] <tseng> its just happening
[07:34] <ivoks> \sh: are you here?
[07:34] <ivoks> we should have MOTU meeting and talk about this
[07:34] <tseng> yes, we should
[07:34] <ivoks> and then go to debian with proposal
[07:34] <\sh> ivoks: yepp
[07:34] <ivoks> meanwhile, they should have same thing
[07:34] <\sh> but right now, i'm mirroring a complete repository
[07:34] <ivoks> \sh: say something :) you are MOTU
[07:35] <\sh> ivoks: u r motu as well
[07:35] <ivoks> yes, but i like other oppionos
[07:35] <\sh> ivoks: but both parties should read something about "baz" ;)
[07:35] <ivoks> and I know you think different than me...
[07:35] <adn> who are MOTU?
[07:36] <tseng> adn: they maintain/bugfix things in universe
[07:36] <ivoks> adn: you should know that before comming here :)
[07:36] <adn> I mean persons
[07:36] <tseng> ah, there is a list on the wiki
[07:36] <adn> I read the topic, don't worry :)
[07:36] <tseng> hang on
[07:36] <ivoks> well... ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTU
[07:36] <adn> ok
[07:37] <tseng> adn: basically, we auto sync things from Debian, this doesnt always work 100%
[07:37] <\sh> i hope debian.neo.pl is not pissed, while I'm hammering with 10MB/s on their apache
[07:37] <adn> yes, yes, I know the principle :)
[07:37] <tseng> adn: for example, we are using GCC4 now, so the MOTU team is fixing debian packages that dont build
[07:37] <adn> I just wanted "names" :p
[07:37] <tseng> k.
[07:37] <adn> tseng: oh, ok
[07:37] <adn> you're kind of porters, then
[07:38] <tseng> most of the team doesnt work so much in new packaging or stuff like that
[07:38] <tseng> yep!
[07:38] <tseng> its QA for universe
[07:38] <adn> ok
[07:38] <ivoks> adn: and, wouldn't it be great if debian would have all those patches?
[07:38] <adn> are there DD MOTU?
[07:38] <tseng> one.
[07:38] <\sh> adn: no
[07:38] <ivoks> adn: so, going to gcc4 would be pice of cake
[07:38] <tseng> ajmitch
[07:38] <adn> ivoks: not sure
[07:38] <\sh> adn: there r some motus who r dd
[07:38] <\sh> adn: but not all of them
[07:39] <adn> ivoks: some patches are not agreed with from the DD maintainer side
[07:39] <ivoks> adn: then there is our first problem
[07:39] <ivoks> we patch one package to fix gcc4, and you patch it with another patch
[07:39] <ivoks> what then?
[07:39] <adn> but, in the absolute, patches should indeed be minimal
[07:40] <adn> as fixes should be integrated here and there
[07:40] <\sh> adn: we're providing debdiff pacthes...so it will be against a debian package
[07:40] <tseng> adn: yep.
[07:41] <adn> \sh: yes
[07:41] <Amaranth> hey, konq passes the acid2 test now
[07:41] <tseng> adn: we do track a few things ahead of debian (gnome, mono, gstreamer).. but in those cases we work with debian also
[07:41] <\sh> adn: so u have to do only a patch -p{1..4} < debdiff.patch in the debianized sourcetree
[07:41] <adn> tseng: that is really great
[07:41] <\sh> adn: replace changelog
[07:41] <ivoks> \sh: no, not replace!
[07:41] <\sh> adn: upload to debian
[07:41] <ivoks> \sh: append
[07:41] <\sh> ivoks: yeah
[07:41] <ivoks> \sh: that will preserve compatibility
[07:41] <\sh> but the version scheme must be updated ;)
[07:42] <\sh> because debian is our upstream
[07:42] <ivoks> eh..
[07:42] <\sh> and for breezy+1 we will sync again :)
[07:42] <ivoks> if we are going to work together
[07:42] <ivoks> we should establish new versioning
[07:42] <ivoks> why..
[07:42] <adn> but I think my ideal would lead to a fusion :)
[07:42] <\sh> adn: impossible right now
[07:43] <adn> \sh: exactly, that is an utopical idea ;)
[07:43] <\sh> adn: we're not compatible with debians religion ;)
[07:43] <ivoks> well, if we do x.y.z-0ubuntu1, and other packages depend on x.y.z-0ubuntu1 that will be wrong
[07:43] <adn> \sh: which religion?
[07:43] <\sh> and i don't think about technical issues..
[07:43] <adn> yup
[07:43] <tseng> i think he means, ubuntu is alot more laid back then debian in several places
[07:43] <tseng> software freedom, new maintainer standards..
[07:43] <ivoks> we should divide program version from package version
[07:43] <\sh> adn: it's the same reason why the debian planet maintainer removed ians blog the last time he was spreading news about progeny ;)
[07:44] <ivoks> and other packages should depend on program version, not package version
[07:44] <adn> \sh: he made a bad decision, right
[07:44] <adn> an "under pressure" bad decision
[07:44] <\sh> adn: no :) he followed the OSS principle
[07:44] <ivoks> this way you could have 1.2.3-ubuntu123 and 1.2.3-sarge234254 deps that would go along without problems
[07:45] <\sh> adn: free as in free speech :)
[07:45] <adn> \sh: hmm
[07:45] <ivoks> ah, monolog :)
[07:45] <adn> what do you mean?
[07:45] <\sh> adn: and this guy from p.d.o wanted to be the king of queens and shut down ian's blog
[07:46] <adn> which principles lead to remove ian's blog without even telling him?
[07:46] <\sh> adn: debian has an idea, everything should be GPLed in a common way...
[07:46] <\sh> adn: even documentation and opinions and statements
[07:46] <adn> you tell him, you discuss it with him
[07:46] <\sh> no..
[07:46] <adn> \sh: it is easier to package, if gpled ;)
[07:46] <Amaranth> the big fuss over it was because the guy running p.d.o was an ubuntu dev
[07:47] <adn> Amaranth: I didn't even know it
[07:47] <\sh> Amaranth: who was it?
[07:47] <Amaranth> i can't remember
[07:47] <adn> the new one is an ubuntu dev
[07:47] <adn> mako
[07:48] <\sh> mako's maintaining p.d.o?
[07:48] <tseng> i thought scott was.
[07:48] <\sh> lol
[07:48] <\sh> hahhahahaha
[07:48] <\sh> rotflbtc
[07:48] <\sh> I go home ;)
[07:49] <zul> i just love when ian murdock promotes progeny
[07:49] <adn> I just don't care :)
[07:49] <\sh> http://linux.blogweb.de/archives/13-Free-as-in-free-speech...-and-all-that-nonsense.html
[07:49] <\sh> i p*ssed of keybuk *rotfl*
[07:50] <\sh> and he approved me as member
[07:50] <tseng> so?
[07:50] <tseng> he is a cool enough guy
[07:50] <\sh> this was wrong from him..:)
[07:50] <\sh> no offense against him :)
[07:50] <adn> who is keybuk?
[07:50] <\sh> well...
[07:51] <tseng> adn: scott james remnant
[07:51] <\sh> gentoo staff was much more complaining against me :)
[07:51] <adn> ok
[07:51] <tseng> gentoo staff are asshats about planet
[07:51] <\sh> when I kicked drobbins
[07:51] <tseng> and the users
[07:52] <ivoks> i have to go now...
[07:52] <zul> truthfully i could care less about gentoo
[07:52] <ivoks> we should meet and discuss things...
[07:52] <tseng> yes.
[07:52] <ivoks> for now, bye all
[07:53] <DanielN> going out now.. nice evening to all of you.. ivoks: it's finished as you know :p
[07:53] <\sh> zul: sometimes it's funny to see how the politics are improving from time to time
[07:53] <zul> its all politics all the time
[07:54] <tseng> yep.
[07:55] <adn> well, see p.d.o now, if you want to laugh :p
[07:55] <tseng> saw it.
[07:56] <tseng> its his blog, i hate planet censorship
[07:56] <\sh> tseng: me too
[07:57] <\sh> but more funnier to see: he's far more onto ubuntu then debian ;) at least he's using plone ;)
[07:57] <tseng> thats a good things?
[07:58] <\sh> tseng: not at all..but the similarities are fascinating...
[08:01] <adn> nice evening
[08:06] <\sh> hmm...strange
[08:06] <\sh> ssh is not forwarding $DISPLAY?
[08:06] <\sh> argl..no xauth
[08:10] <herve> re
[08:13] <\sh> hoi herve
[08:42] <ivoks> hi :)
[08:48] <ivoks> hi tritium
[08:48] <tritium> hi ivoks
[08:49] <tritium> How are things?
[08:51] <ivoks> been better :)
[08:52] <ivoks> lots of work on university..
[08:52] <tritium> same here
[09:11] <herve> hi ivoks
[09:11] <herve> anyone knows of lulu.com?
[09:12] <ivoks> herve: hi
[09:12] <ivoks> nope
[09:12] <ivoks> interesting concept
[09:13] <ivoks> herve: planing to write a book? :)
[09:14] <herve> a child's dream
[09:14] <herve> evince really is a great piece of software
[09:15] <Lathiat> it is
[09:19] <ivoks> lol lulu.com
[09:19] <ivoks> 25%
[09:23] <\sh> what is lulu.com
[09:23] <ivoks> free publishing :)
[09:24] <ivoks> herve: you are good with python?
[09:24] <herve> I head to it :-)
[09:24] <ivoks> what do you say we develop one nice firewall for ubuntu? :)
[09:25] <herve> yet another one? :-)
[09:25] <ivoks> no, the real one :)
[09:25] <Lathiat> iptables -P ACCEPT DROP; iptables -P OUTPUT DROP
[09:25] <Lathiat> done!
[09:25] <ivoks> herve: it has bounties :)
[09:26] <herve> but I mean it
[09:26] <\sh> a firewall?
[09:26] <herve> there already are a dozen of firewall GUIs
[09:26] <ivoks> yeah... let me just check firestarter
[09:26] <\sh> u know that a firewall is a concept not a piece of software
[09:26] <\sh> fwbuilder
[09:26] <ivoks> :)
[09:27] <ivoks> fwbuilder is gtk?
[09:27] <ivoks> herve: acctually, we need small applet
[09:27] <herve> \sh, as I understand his point, we think of "firewall" as a protecting application for the average ubuntu user
[09:27] <ivoks> herve: that would do "security high/medium/low"
[09:28] <herve> ivoks: why would one want low security? :-)
[09:28] <ivoks> herve: that would be ACCPET policy, no rules
[09:28] <herve> isn't that a question asked by SELinux? :-)
[09:29] <ivoks> damn
[09:29] <ivoks> i didin't compile netfilter :)
[09:29] <herve> apt-get install iptables :-)
[09:30] <ivoks> ?
[09:30] <ivoks> that
[09:30] <ivoks> 't not it
[09:30] <ivoks> lol, ante, you can write lying on one hand, and typing with other :)
[09:38] <ivoks> bulgaria:croatia 1:3
[09:44] <encolpe> Hi
[09:56] <herve> houba
[09:56] <herve> ivoks,
[09:56] <ivoks> yes, darling?
[09:56] <herve> for ending up with that firewall thing
[09:57] <herve> I'm afraid I can't afford to give more time
[09:57] <ivoks> ok
[09:57] <ivoks> i'll try firestarter
[09:57] <ajmitch> it won't take long, even I could write one ;)
[09:57] <\sh> hey ajmitch
[09:57] <ivoks> it would only need to run iptables :)
[09:57] <ajmitch> hi
[09:57] <ivoks> ok, reboot into new kernel...
[09:58] <ivoks> i shall return :)
[09:58] <herve> ajmitch, you usually say you lack of time
[09:58] <herve> you're surprising me :-)
[09:58] <ajmitch> herve: I just finished all but exams at uni last week
[09:58] <herve> exams...
[09:58] <herve> I thought you were teaching there :-)
[09:59] <ajmitch> that too ;)
[09:59] <herve> you couldn't make up your mind :)-
[09:59] <ajmitch> heh
[10:01] <\sh> ajmitch: we need sponsors ;)
[10:02] <ivoks> for debian? :)
[10:02] <\sh> yeepp
[10:02] <ivoks> yeah..
[10:02] <ivoks> anyone DD in MOTU?
[10:02] <ajmitch> sure
[10:03] <ivoks> who? :)
[10:03] <ivoks> so, you could be our link
[10:03] <\sh> ajmitch: check http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=286203
[10:03] <ivoks> :>
[10:03] <ajmitch> sure, but I said I'm going out right now :)
[10:03] <\sh> gogogo :)
[10:03] <ivoks> out?
[10:03] <ajmitch> so talk to me when I get back, or email me @ ajmitch@debian.org :)
[10:04] <ajmitch> yes, outside
[10:04] <ajmitch> big blue room
[10:04] <ivoks> you?! outside?!
[10:04] <ivoks> is this a joke
[10:04] <ivoks> ?
[10:04] <ajmitch> no joke
[10:04] <ajmitch> really leaving
[10:04] <ivoks> i tought you are bot :))
[10:04] <Amaranth> anyone wanna bet ubuntu wins cnet's "Open Source Initiative of the Year" award ;)
[10:04] <ajmitch> haha
[10:04] <ajmitch> bbl :)
[10:04] <ivoks> ajmitch: enjoy
[10:05] <herve> \sh, I have one too ;-)
[10:05] <\sh> herve: what? :)
[10:06] <herve> an ITP
[10:06] <\sh> well..i'm only taking over from this guy
[10:06] <ivoks> heh
[10:06] <\sh> not all
[10:06] <\sh> some upstreams are too old
[10:07] <ivoks> we should probably wait couple of days
[10:07] <ivoks> untill we agree about this things at least on MOTU meeting
[10:07] <ivoks> will we fill or not ITPs
[10:07] <ivoks> ah..
[10:07] <ivoks> i give up :)
[10:08] <ivoks> that's to complicated
[10:08] <ivoks> let's fork :)
[10:09] <herve> we already did :-p
[10:09] <\sh> ivoks doesn't want to understand ;)
[10:09] <ivoks> i know we did
[10:09] <ivoks> but we should stop
[10:09] <ivoks> :(
[10:09] <herve> heh, I'm just kidding!
[10:10] <\sh> ivoks: why do u want to stop development?
[10:10] <ivoks> \sh: i didn't said that
[10:10] <ivoks> \sh: you could be good politican :)
[10:10] <\sh> ivoks: the thing is, how many new packages coming into universe?
[10:10] <\sh> in the last couple of days, only smeg
[10:10] <\sh> and thats all
[10:10] <ivoks> yeah, couse my wifi is still waiting :)
[10:11] <\sh> the rest is only gcc/g++ 4 bugfixing and petting ;)
[10:11] <ivoks> seriously, we should define framework for new packages
[10:11] <\sh> and this will get back to debian, this way or the other
[10:11] <ivoks> we should contact debian
[10:11] <ivoks> what if someone in debian puts smeg into debian?
[10:12] <ivoks> we would have problems with that package on syncing
[10:12] <\sh> how? Amaranth is the developer I think :)
[10:12] <ivoks> now, imagine 100 packages like that
[10:12] <\sh> he can say "forget it" ;)
[10:12] <\sh> ivoks: what about the 100 packages, which weren't packaged by debian nor ubuntu?
[10:12] <ivoks> if we have unique framework for all debian derivates (not just ubuntu)
[10:13] <\sh> SIP Express Router is a good example
[10:13] <ivoks> it would be much easier
[10:13] <\sh> it has debian/* and it's completly b0rked
[10:13] <\sh> btw..i have to fix this package
[10:13] <ivoks> \sh: then you take it, fix it and put it back in mutual source repository
[10:13] <ivoks> \sh: every distro can then grap it and build it
[10:13] <ivoks> knoppix, ubuntu, debian...
[10:14] <\sh> ivoks: u see...and this is not working :)
[10:14] <ivoks> no one tried
[10:14] <ivoks> why wouldn't we have binary repository for ubuntu packages
[10:14] <ivoks> and source from debian.org?
[10:14] <\sh> ivoks: http://www.linuxbase.org/
[10:15] <ivoks> participants: debian :)
[10:16] <\sh> yes...and can u alien a package from debian directly into redhat, without adjusting config files and where they r installed?
[10:17] <\sh> even the position of QT is different from distro to distro
[10:17] <ivoks> \sh: then one source repository would be step in right direction for debian based distros
[10:17] <\sh> ivoks: read the documents about "bazaar" :)
[10:17] <ivoks> \sh: i know for bazaar
[10:17] <\sh> thats what I said earlier :)
[10:18] <ivoks> we should suggest it to debian
[10:18] <\sh> ivoks: they know :)
[10:18] <ivoks> force it
[10:18] <ivoks> tell them that's the way.. we have infrastructure - let's do it
[10:18] <\sh> ivoks: how can u force something in an democratic anarchy?
[10:19] <ivoks> force bazzar
[10:19] <ivoks> not them
[10:19] <ivoks> like promote, talk about it
[10:19] <ivoks> etc...
[10:19] <ivoks> i didn't choose right word
[10:19] <\sh> ivoks: there must be a decision be made..the decision will be made for ubuntu via techboard
[10:19] <ivoks> i know
[10:20] <\sh> ivoks: the decision for debian is a mixture of 100s of important and more important people, who wants to have something to say.
[10:20] <\sh> ivoks: that is the only problem with debian (imho), sometimes they're talking too much, instead of going on with the future
[10:21] <ivoks> we all know debian has bad organistaion
[10:21] <ivoks> when i did my first review of ubuntu
[10:21] <ivoks> on my LUG
[10:22] <ivoks> I ended review with sentence "Ubuntu can give so much to Debian, maybe first thing is example of organization that works."
[10:23] <\sh> ivoks: the answer will be: "Even if ubuntu claims to be free, it's the project of a commercial company"
[10:24] <ivoks> well, debian should wake up then
[10:24] <ivoks> computers cost money
[10:24] <\sh> the descision can only be made on the level of the developers...to have a technical solution
[10:24] <ivoks> one thing is free software, something totaly different is company
[10:24] <ivoks> companys can build free software
[10:25] <ivoks> we should talk to them ASAP
[10:28] <herve> do you remember something about libosmesa6-dev or mesag-dev to be changed?
[10:29] <\sh> what is it?
[10:30] <herve> mesa development headers :-)
[10:30] <\sh> wasn't it xlibmesa ?
[10:30] <\sh> or libglu?
[10:30] <\sh> now?
[10:30] <herve> I don't have a clue
[10:31] <\sh> which lib?
[10:31] <herve> tulip
[10:34] <ivoks> oh, tulip :((
[10:34] <herve> yes...
[10:35] <herve> I thought the powerpc package list was broken
[10:35] <herve> but it still occurs
[10:35] <ivoks> what will be with /usr/lib/X11?
[10:35] <ivoks> i can't build openscenegraph untill this is resolved
[10:36] <herve> even changing some configure/Makefile?
[10:36] <ivoks> i didn't change...
[10:36] <ivoks> i can and i will when i'll know default place for development libs
[10:37] <ivoks>  /usr/X11R6/include doesn't look like good solution for me
[10:38] <herve> quoting ogra: "fixed the build dependencys (xlibmesa-gl-dev, libglu-dev-xorg, libgle3-dev and libxinerama-dev added)"
[10:38] <herve> I guess I have something like that to do
[10:41] <ivoks> bye all
[10:41] <herve> bye
[10:42] <herve> is #u-d active?
[10:42] <tepsipakki> very..
[10:43] <herve> tepsipakki, I trust your word :-)
[10:43] <tepsipakki> warning, some gnome-bashing on the list ;)
[10:43] <herve> I'll distract them :-)
[10:44] <tepsipakki> i meant that there's one quite vocal guy preaching his visions
[10:44] <tepsipakki> oh well..
[10:45] <herve> too late :-)
[10:52] <\sh> my skype runs like hell :)
[10:53] <Nafallo> \sh: sounds... ehm... bad ;-)
[10:54] <\sh> no...it's ok..just had a nice chat with a friend of mine :) with artsdsp it's working ;)
[10:55] <Nafallo> hehe
[11:00] <blahrus> afternoon all!
[11:00] <Riddell> \sh: yo
[11:03] <tepsipakki> dooglus: my breezy runs fine with gnome..
[11:03] <tepsipakki> damn..
[11:07] <\sh> Riddell: why is kmilo not working in kde 3.4.1 as in 3.4.0?
[11:08] <\sh> Riddell: just installed kubuntu today ;)
[11:08] <herve> nice thread on #u-d
[11:08] <herve> "I have the bigger"...
[11:09] <herve> s/bigger/bigest
[11:09] <herve> biggest?
[11:09] <tepsipakki> biggest, yeah ;)
[11:11] <tseng> herve++
[11:12] <\sh> preparing again python-kde3 package
[11:13] <\sh> hamlib just compiled successfully
[11:14] <Riddell> \sh: no idea
[11:14] <Riddell> should work just the same
[11:14] <\sh> tomorrow I will recompile all new apps for breezy and put them in my repos
[11:14] <\sh> hmm....
[11:15] <\sh> have to recheck my X config
[11:15] <\sh> then it's i think the keyboard layout
[11:16] <herve> still X errors at yours?
[11:31] <herve> tseng, you need an upload.
[11:31] <herve> ?
[11:31] <tseng> herve: to main.
[11:31] <herve> argh
[11:31] <tseng> he'll fix it
[11:31] <herve> who had the idea to move it to main? ;-)
[11:32] <tseng> he jsut didnt move my key yet, its fine.
[11:32] <herve> seb128 would help too
[11:32] <herve> but it doesn't look like an emergency
[11:32] <tseng> nope.