[03:34] <jsgotangco> hello
[06:17] <mpt> jsgotangco: I think we've reached the "show us the code" point of the discussion :-)
[07:45] <jsgotangco> hah
[07:49] <jsgotangco> mpt, by chance, have you checked out the sytleguide in svn?
[07:50] <mpt> jsgotangco: no
[07:50] <jsgotangco> you want me to make an html for you and send it by email?
[07:50] <mpt> What format is it in currently?
[07:50] <jsgotangco> docbook
[07:50] <mpt> "svn up" updates me, right?
[07:51] <jsgotangco> right
[07:51] <jsgotangco> on the styleguide folder just execute the script
[07:51] <jsgotangco> "make html"
[07:52] <jsgotangco> it will make a styleguide.html in the folder
[07:52] <jsgotangco> venda, hi
[07:52] <venda> hi
[07:53] <venda> irclog is still stuck ;-(
[07:54] <jsgotangco> yes
[07:54] <venda> what we speaking about this morning
[07:54] <jsgotangco> it has been quiet
[07:55] <venda> Ah ok
[07:55] <jsgotangco> so far the natives have been peaceful
[07:55] <jsgotangco> (interesting exchange on the list though)
[07:56] <venda> Hmm, I know the problem
[07:57] <jsgotangco> you do?
[07:57] <venda> jsgotangco: I am looking for help on merging kudos into faqguide
[07:57] <venda> jsgotangco: sure, my mrs, calls me an addict
[07:57] <venda> says I should spend less time online
[07:58] <venda> So I spent most of the weekend reading Python Programming:-)
[07:59] <jsgotangco> i've been reading Ruby
[07:59] <venda>  he he
[08:00] <venda> jsgotangco: how's the kwickguide
[08:00] <jsgotangco> i have been busy but i did some small hacks
[08:01] <venda> OK did you get all the screenshots?
[08:02] <jsgotangco> not all yet
[08:02] <venda> it always amazes me how long taking screenshots takes :-)
[08:03] <jsgotangco> blame my existing contract
[08:03] <venda> no contracts are good
[08:03] <venda> screenshots take time
[08:04] <venda> dunno why, just the way it is
[08:04] <jsgotangco> my shots arent clean either
[08:04] <venda> Hmm why?
[08:04] <jsgotangco> maybe i should take them at a low resolution then clean them up after
[08:04] <jsgotangco> instead of taking them in a hig-rez
[08:06] <venda> do you use imagemagic like we described
[08:06] <jsgotangco> yep
[08:06] <venda> that will give you the right res
[08:07] <venda> looking at the screenshots I see you always have the Kubuntu desktop wall-paper in the background. Why?
[08:08] <venda> imagemagic should capture just the window
[08:08] <jsgotangco> venda, because the first shots werent made with imagemagic
[08:09] <venda> Ah ok
[08:09] <jsgotangco> the new hack should fix it
[08:09] <venda> OK
[08:10] <venda> jsgotangco: about messages on list. Is there anyting you want to say/ Do you agreee/disagree with the current strategy we are using?
[08:13] <venda> I am just interested to know whether or not those ppl committing are happy with the direction or not?
[08:14] <jsgotangco> venda, i like our current setup and would rather stick to yelp for now to deliver docs for breezy
[08:14] <jsgotangco> (sorry i think our current setup just needs housekeeping)
[08:15] <venda> that's fine
[08:15] <venda> so you prefer to dumb down the xml to support yelp
[08:16] <jsgotangco> like jdub said before, what we need to do docs for now are already in our system let's just improve on it
[08:16] <venda> what kind of housekeeping 
[08:17] <venda> yes our focus is on writing the docs
[08:17] <jsgotangco> my gripe is with the current state of gnome docs which is catalogued by scrollkeeper
[08:17] <venda> but that is upstream work
[08:18] <jsgotangco> if we can fix that, we can contribute that to upstream then
[08:18] <venda> well then I would suggest that we all move to GNOME docs
[08:18] <venda> no point working at ubuntu on gnome docs
[08:18] <venda> much better to move upstream and work there
[08:19] <venda> but that would mean ubuntu docs suffer
[08:20] <jsgotangco> heh it doesnt have to be that way
[08:20] <jsgotangco> i mean what can we do with existing stuff
[08:20] <jsgotangco> unless ubuntu really goes by itself
[08:20] <venda> Hmm not sure I undersatnd
[08:21] <venda> GNOME has a Desktop Manual and app docs
[08:22] <jsgotangco> i still like the current setup probably because i am learning from it
[08:23] <venda> So you want yelp to view the xml or the HTML
[08:23] <jsgotangco> either whatever works
[08:23] <jsgotangco> (although some xml still isnt being recognized by yelp)?
[08:24] <venda> OK did you understand why I am saying to direct at HTML
[08:24] <jsgotangco> ummm..not entirely sure but i would guess when rendering it?
[08:25] <venda> I am not saying lose Yelp I am saying instead of using XML under yelp we will have yelp view HTML
[08:25] <venda> this obviates the need to dumb down the xml to support yelp
[08:25] <venda> enables more features
[08:25] <jsgotangco> will it make yelp faster?
[08:26] <venda> Yelp will still load in th etime it takes, but viewing individual pages in faster
[08:26] <venda> since it will not be transforming and then rendering 
[08:26] <venda> it will just be rendering
[08:27] <venda> there is some confusion about the term "web-based" app
[08:27] <venda> the web-based app I speak of in really an HTML frameset, pages, CSS, jscript
[08:28] <venda> Yelp will not load the frameset
[08:28] <venda> and no jscript, unless the new release will support it
[08:28] <jsgotangco> will the packaging be the same?
[08:28] <venda> the packaging is the same, except we package HTML
[08:29] <venda> users can optionaly install the src package
[08:29] <venda> but the src will not always be supported by yelp
[08:29] <jsgotangco> will the html pages in yelp still show the pages catalogued by scrollkeeper?
[08:30] <venda> yelp toc does that
[08:30] <venda> or are you talking aboutthe main page
[08:30] <jsgotangco> main
[08:30] <venda> the main pag eof yelp is not touched by us
[08:31] <jsgotangco> yes i know that, i mean will it still be the same for now
[08:31] <venda> yes
[08:31] <jsgotangco> i wouldn't mind that, but we still have to write in docbook for obvious reasons and just transform it during packaging
[08:32] <venda> yes, instead of shipping xml that yelp wont support at present, we ship static HTML
[08:32] <jsgotangco> i like that
[08:33] <jsgotangco> (we can probably save some space on the disc as well)
[08:33] <venda> yes it does
[08:33] <jsgotangco> i think this is a more acceptable solution for now
[08:33] <venda> I would howver like the About Ubuntu link to open our HTML frameset
[08:34] <venda> that is what we are saying
[08:34] <venda> well me
[08:34] <venda> The About Ubuntu menu option currently opens FF
[08:35] <venda> in 5.10 instead of just showing About Ubuntu Doc there will be an HTML frameset with TOC access to all our docs
[08:35] <venda> release notes etc
[08:35] <jsgotangco> hmm
[08:35] <jsgotangco> they don't want that?
[08:36] <venda> I think people do not understand or cannot see the vision
[08:36] <jsgotangco> i think that is so simple if you ask me
[08:36] <jsgotangco> it would render the same pages anyway
[08:36] <jsgotangco> right?
[08:37] <venda> yes. I need to build a demo
[08:37] <venda> but now I am sidetracked into merging kudos into faq guide
[08:38] <jsgotangco> venda, that frameset is just one html page it shouldn't be that much of an issue
[08:38] <venda> yes
[08:38] <venda> the toc is also html
[08:38] <venda> just styles with css and made interactive with jscript
[08:38] <jsgotangco> i dont see it even go beyond 5kb
[08:39] <jsgotangco> venda, i dont see any problem with this, it is very much doable and promotes reuse of existing packaged stuff
[08:39] <venda> yes, because it is a frameset, individual pages can be accessed one at a time
[08:40] <venda> so yelp will have access to individual pages
[08:41] <jsgotangco> hmmm what's the fuzz with the thread then
[08:41] <venda> I think ppl think that we are looking to replace yelp
[08:41] <venda> but that is not so
[08:42] <venda> yelp will just be viewing html from us and not transforming xml
[08:42] <jsgotangco> i say we go that path
[08:42] <jsgotangco> nobody needs the xml anyway
[08:42] <venda> but we will enable access to ubuntu doc collection under a html frameset
[08:43] <jsgotangco> venda, will the collection be in the cd or online?
[08:43] <venda> well xml is not meant for presentation
[08:43] <venda> yelp tries to transform the xml to html on the fly
[08:43] <jsgotangco> yes i noticed that
[08:43] <venda> but it does not support all docbook
[08:43] <jsgotangco> (and not very good at it)
[08:44] <venda> it supports only what gnome docteam need
[08:44] <venda> the docs will be packaged as normal on the cd
[08:44] <venda> and will be available online at help.ubuntu.com
[08:45] <venda> well that is the idea
[08:45] <venda> need to hear back from Hendrik on this
[08:45] <jsgotangco> i think that is doable and acceptable to the brass
[08:45] <venda> for preview during devel we will hopefully have use of docteam.ubuntu.com
[08:45] <venda> well we will see
[08:46] <venda> what does this mean for kwick guide
[08:46] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:46] <venda> it means that you will be able to use interdoc references
[08:46] <jsgotangco> i dont see any problem considering kde does khtml
[08:46] <venda> yes, KHelpcenter uses HTML
[08:47] <venda> but in general in means that we will be able to link between our docs
[08:47] <venda> we will not be able to link to docs under yelp
[08:47] <venda> this is the weak link
[08:48] <venda> the tradeoff is a balance between greater functional support of docbook and support of yelp
[08:48] <venda> I think it is a worthwhile tradeoff
[08:48] <venda> if we can use links between our docs
[08:49] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:49] <venda> and freatures such as glossary and index can be used
[08:49] <jsgotangco> we can probably worry about that later if yelp really gets ugly for us
[08:49] <venda> well we hope that jdub and shaunm can improve on yelp
[08:51] <jsgotangco> maybe you can email this again and explain it further in detail
[08:51] <venda> jsgotangco: but staying true to docbook, I think that oneday, help will be able to support all docbook xml
[08:52] <venda> well I am mostly interested in ppl who are comtting
[08:52] <venda> at present that is you, mdke and I
[08:53] <jsgotangco> well you forgot jeffsh
[08:53] <venda> oops and jeffsh and jjesse
[08:53] <jsgotangco> (what can 4 people do at the moment)
[08:54] <jsgotangco> with 1M users
[08:54] <jsgotangco> (1M is conservative based on the no of warty cds shipped)
[08:54] <venda> allot if they focus on writing and do not get derailed by all these discussions
[08:54] <venda> look at yourself how well you have done with kwickguide
[08:55] <jsgotangco> heh its not much at the moment, but i agree it has come a long way
[08:56] <venda> What I have found is that we get more done if we focus on writing the docs and just use what docbook has given us instead of trying to figure out work arounds to helpviewer limitations and desktop incompatabilities
[08:56] <venda> but I want the commiters to understand the HTML strategy
[08:57] <venda> At present this is the only way I see of negating the problems
[08:58] <venda> I hope yelp will oneday support full docbook
[08:58] <venda> I know that Shaunm wants this, but without help from other developers he cannot do it all alone
[08:59] <venda> hopefully now that jdub is getting involved and there is some traction at freedesktop.org we will see greater support for docbook as a standard
[08:59] <jsgotangco> (shouldn't it be in the first place)
[09:00] <venda> in a perfect world
[09:00] <venda> well gotta go get dressed
[09:00] <jsgotangco> ok i gotta grab a sandwhich
[09:00] <venda> coffee finished day must start
[09:00] <venda> c ya
[11:36] <froud> life gets interesting when you get .Net on Linux http://www.codeproject.com/showcase/Mainsoft_grasshopper.asp
[11:42] <jsgotangco> java?
[11:42] <jsgotangco> blasphemy!
[11:43] <froud> I take an open approach to technologies, if it works I use it.
[11:44] <froud> free from religios questions I can do more
[11:45] <jsgotangco> i condemn thee to be hang, drawn, and quartered
[11:45] <froud> hold on I have not got my black leathers on
[11:46] <mdke> there is so much crap on the wiki
[11:46] <mdke> sometimes I'm tempted just to delete hundreds of pages
[11:46] <jsgotangco> ahhh my favorite barrister is now awake
[11:47] <mdke> morning m'lud
[11:47] <jsgotangco> (the only barrister i know of anyway)
[11:47] <mdke> hey
[11:47] <mdke> i preferred "my favorite"
[11:47] <jsgotangco> how long will you be one anyway
[11:47] <mdke> for ever!
[11:47] <jsgotangco> ackk
[11:48] <jsgotangco> is a barrister the same as a solicitor
[11:49] <mdke> not quite
[11:49] <mdke> a barrister speaks in court
[11:49] <mdke> a solicitor does the stuff behind the scenes, like taking the client out to dinner etc
[11:50] <jsgotangco> hmm
[11:50] <jsgotangco> i like the solicitor then
[11:50] <mdke> ;)
[11:50] <jsgotangco> especially if the client is a young widow of an 90-year old oil baron
[11:51] <froud> mmmmmm
[11:52] <mdke> jsgotangco, i told you to stop going out to dinner with young ladies
[11:52] <mdke> have you guys seen the page http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EverydayUsage
[11:52] <mdke> it sucks SO bad
[11:52] <froud> mdke: watch what you say soon he will focus on little boys :-(
[11:53] <froud> but there are nice ideas there for User Guide
[11:54] <froud> like I never thought of having a section on compiling
[11:54] <mdke> nor did i
[11:54] <froud> I wonder if that is a good idea or not
[11:54] <mdke> why in gods name is he telling people to compile mplayer
[11:54] <froud> dunno
[11:54] <mdke> no not for beginners imo
[11:55] <froud> mplyer is in the repos
[11:55] <mdke> quite
[11:55] <froud> guess if you want specific codecs
[11:56] <mdke> still don't think that is necessary
[11:56] <mdke> also telling users to compile kde?
[11:56] <mdke> crazy shit
[11:57] <froud> sometimes I build kde from CVS
[11:57] <froud> but that is for development
[11:57] <froud> not averageuser
[11:57] <mdke> quite
[11:58] <jsgotangco> let's just nuke the wiki one time
[11:58] <froud> not before we have ported the stuff we need :-)
[11:58] <mdke> yes
[11:58] <mdke> that's why I have left that page
[11:58] <mdke> just in case it has something that would be useful
[11:59] <jsgotangco> i dont even use our wiki to search for something useful
[12:06] <mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
[12:50] <froud> Interesting concept and perhaps a tool
[12:51] <froud> would be nice to see how this works.
[12:51] <froud> BTW. The LFS book is great
[12:51] <froud> Nice use of docbook 4.4
[12:52] <froud> nice use of xinclude and entities
[12:53] <froud> and very neat custom layers
[12:53] <jsgotangco> hmm
[12:53] <froud> impressive
[12:53] <jsgotangco> ill check it out later
[12:53] <jsgotangco> i gotta go
[12:53] <froud> ok
[06:26] <Burgundavia> morning all
[06:27] <Burgundavia> I have had a busy weekend, and have not been at the computer much
[06:49] <jjesse> morning burgundavia
[06:52] <jjesse> or afternoon as it is here :)
[08:35] <venda> elo
[10:30] <Burgundavia> venda, here
[10:30] <venda> Burgundavia: in a minute
[10:35] <venda> Burgundavia: catch you in the morning
[10:37] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:33] <mdke> aha
[11:33] <mdke> bravo enrico