=== mdke [~mdke@81-178-74-18.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [~mdke@mdke.user] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === mdke [~mdke@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:33] morning === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.63.100] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:09] people im cleaning up global.ent and standardizing on ubuntu.com instead of ubuntulinux.org whenever possible [04:10] jiyuu0, do you have a gpg key? === Skywind [~Skywind@218.94.37.34] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:51] brb === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [~robitaill@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-88.dsl.clear.net.nz] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === venda [~sean@ndn-165-138-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:09] venda, hi === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Liz [~Liz@fixed-203-87-81-158.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === venda [~sean@ndn-165-138-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] [08:30] oh well [09:20] mdke, ping? [10:10] mdke, we have a BIG problem [10:11] W$%^$%@# [11:42] hi [11:42] jsgotangco, pong [11:43] yes we do === omppa [~juu@addr-213-139-178-202.suomi.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === omppa [~juu@addr-213-139-178-202.suomi.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [12:00] we're screwed [12:01] mdke, what you reckon we do for starters [12:01] jsgotangco, have you read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy [12:01] don't panic [12:02] im not [12:02] there are a few things we can do [12:02] but we don't have plan b at the moment [12:03] we can talk to sabdfl or silbs maybe [12:03] and maybe I will ring froud later [12:03] we can start on the cc meeting later [12:03] you mean in the meeting? [12:03] well [12:03] we we can't raise this stuff [12:03] we have to have a meeting on our own [12:04] we need jeffsh as well [12:04] hmm [12:04] give it a bit of time [12:04] jsgotangco, what is the big issue? [12:04] we can organise a meeting [12:04] Burgundavia, froud has quit again [12:04] ah, I seee [12:04] i think he's quitting for good [12:05] dunno [12:05] jsgotangco, these things can happen i guess [12:05] it happens [12:06] but we don't have plan B at the moment [12:06] no [12:06] and until canonical takes and interest in the docteam it will probably keep happening [12:06] please read the last post on this page [12:06] http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3734&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=c52f2a1f8c4c40598f4557f5341e5a37 [12:06] it is quite relevant right now [12:06] ok [12:06] hold on [12:07] Burgundavia, sure that's right [12:07] but it wasn't a lack of enthusiasm for the project in this case [12:07] people come and go that's for sure [12:07] right [12:08] we can still continue with our roadmap though [12:08] and deliver what we've been doing for now [12:08] yeah [12:08] we may have to refocus a little [12:09] we should organise a meeting [12:10] i'll pull out the agenda as well as clean up the roadmap [12:10] now more than ever, we'll need more committers [12:10] i think we should discuss this with jdub [12:10] we'll invite jdub as well [12:10] ok [12:10] jsgotangco, if you do the grunt work on organizing, I am willing to assist you, but I cannot take the lead on this === mpt [mpt@210-55-161-23.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:11] Burgundavia, i don't mind, i'll organise stuff at the moment, we need to focus on the current roadmap [12:11] thing about trying to corner mark after the meeting tonight, if he turns up, is that it will be about midnight [12:12] I will be asleep, sorry [12:12] Burgundavia, how did the job hunting go btw? [12:12] no problem, we'll email anyway, i want to resolve this without going through those channels if possible [12:13] mdke, not done yet, that is why I haven't been very active recently [12:13] Burgundavia, well good luck [12:13] keep at it [12:13] jsgotangco, which channels? [12:13] sabdfl, silbs [12:14] well to be honest i think that the question of the docteam is worth raising with them regardless of this issue [12:14] i have been thinking that for a while [12:14] especially now enrico is not employed anymore [12:14] yes it needs consideration [12:15] i hope enrico goes online now [12:15] if he comes on later i'll talk to him [12:15] yes please [12:17] i'll mail henrik too to see what he thinks [12:18] <-- shower :p [12:19] i wouldn't worry too much on the wiki for now [12:19] night all [12:19] jsgotangco: What is the current roadmap? [12:19] need to sleep [12:21] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects is just a table of targets [12:21] there is no roadmap to speak of at the moment [12:30] one thing we will need to figure out is what to do with the documents which are profiled for ubuntu/kubuntu and Q and A and such [12:31] yeah [12:31] its way over my head at the moment, but we'll have to do with yelp for now to reach targets [12:32] sure but the question is, yelp with xml or yelp with html [12:32] we still code in docbook anyway its a matter of packaging [12:33] jsgotangco, at least 2 of the docs are profiled for kubuntu/ubuntu, yelp does not support this if we package in xml [12:33] so either we need to remove the profiling [12:33] or package in html [12:33] the same applies to Q and A i think [12:33] qanda sets are a problem [12:34] as i understand it they are both a problem [12:34] but we'll have to do with what yelp can do for now [12:34] jsgotangco, as I say, either we package in html or we cut out the profiling and qanda [12:35] we can discuss it in a meeting maybe [12:36] Is HTML the only way to get a frameset-less set of documents in yelp? [12:36] i don't know [12:37] who can change the topic in here? [12:38] sivang [12:38] anyone else? [12:38] NO IDEA [12:39] hmm [12:39] caps? [12:39] its a statement [12:39] heh [12:39] (not directed to you) [12:40] strange that its closed topic [01:12] i have to go [01:12] ill just draft an email later [03:25] the whole wiki is in moin now [03:26] woohoo [03:26] cor === mdke nurses his aching wrist [03:33] hey dudes [03:35] hi jdub [03:35] whats up [03:37] hrm. me. ;) [03:37] good morning then [03:37] are you not in oz? [03:39] yeah, in .au [03:40] you heard sean has quit the team i guess? [03:46] jdub, btw did you publish those WorldWide scripts? [03:47] i sent them to a couple of people who asked for them, but they're not exactly publishable [03:48] i'm kinda waiting to see where the kde ones turn up, because they're a heck of a lot better [03:48] only they use the old version of xplanet [03:48] ok [03:48] would you send them to me? [03:51] jdub ^ [03:53] yeah [03:54] jdub, thanks its matthew.east@breathe.com [03:57] cool [03:58] ah, so, i'm just going to send this *really* raw :) [03:58] straight off the disk [03:58] ok [03:58] i'll see if I can figure it out [03:59] it's a shell script and a bunch of accompanying crack [03:59] it uses current xplanet in ubuntu [03:59] hoary? [03:59] yah [03:59] yeah [03:59] ok [03:59] hrm [03:59] actuall [04:00] ooh yeah the kde one is nice === mpt will use xplanet for his desktop when he has time to learn the command-line options or when someone makes a nice GUI for it, whichever comes first, probably the latter [04:02] yeah, the new one is pretty bong [04:02] mdke: http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/random/UbuntuWorldWide.tar.gz [04:03] jdub, thanks [04:03] jdub, so do you have any thoughts on the current docteam situation? [04:05] mdke: yeah, though i can't see that froud has quit publically [04:05] no [04:06] mdke: i've been in the channel and watching the mailing list for a few weeks, because i want to help get the communication and integration between ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-devel rolling in a useful way [04:06] we have been happy to see you around jdub [04:07] but in some ways your habit of briefly dismissing our methodology has caused a bit of confusion [04:07] i mentioned to corey and jerome that i'm sketching out some ways to help people get involved with particular goals for breezy, so we can get some really satisfying stuff done [04:07] that would probably be helpful [04:08] yeah, i wasn't very clear on the list [04:08] jdub, you have been clear [04:08] just a little terse [04:09] i know the team would really appreciate being listened to [04:09] what we need is a structured methodology that all can agree with and we can stick to [04:09] i think in most cases, that comes down to sean [04:09] and i'm not sure sean has set a productive agenda [04:10] jdub, the thing is, no one else has set one at all [04:10] yeah [04:10] so sean's is accepted by default - i think that's part of the problem [04:11] jdub, i can understand your point of view [04:11] (i don't tend to think i'm disagreeing with the whole team when i disagree with sean) [04:11] jdub, however, in a team like this, where only a few people are putting work in, it is disruptive to have someone come in and say, in a line or two, screw this [04:11] jdub, yes I know [04:12] yeah, i'm disappointed with this thread [04:12] i know that sean has a tendency to just go ahead with things [04:12] but he has been putting in a lot of work [04:13] i don't want to sound ungrateful for his work, but his direction has not really been related to that of the rest of the project [04:13] which draws the whole team further away [04:13] jdub, i disagree to some extent [04:14] and makes it that much harder for everyone else to value the work being done [04:14] which sucks, because that's demotivating [04:51] mdke: Nice work with the moin conversion :) [04:52] :) [04:52] wiki is moving next week [05:03] jdub: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp [05:04] jdub: I'll try to get it finished once I've had some sleep [05:04] (it's probably about 40% done a.t.m.) [05:05] mdke: To moin? [05:05] mdke: What version? [05:05] mdke: As the one in breezy is horrbily outdated. [05:05] mdke: I really hope it'll be the 1.3 branch. [05:07] mpt: 'rename yelp' -> it's never referred to as yelp in the ui :) [05:07] apart from that, it's rocking [05:08] jdub: All abstractions leak. It's referred to as yelp in (1) the About box, (2) error messages, (3) my "System" menu ever since I chose it from the "Open With..." menu for a DocBook file [05:08] mpt: feasibility of print -> actually 200 times simpler than search, will be done through bounty if i get a response about it [05:09] mpt: not sure any of those are horrendously important [05:09] No, you're right, they're not [05:09] error messages would be the most important of the three [05:09] (3) is crack ;) [05:09] If by "crack" you mean "a bug", sure [05:09] (it's crack that it happens at all, like amazingly surprisingly weird) [05:10] Normally I wouldn't mind the panel menus not being editable [05:10] but since they aren't, I've got no idea how to return it to its proper name :-P [05:10] (or restore its icon) [05:10] what do you have under .gnome/apps/ ? [05:11] I have a .gnome directory, but not a .gnome/apps/ directory [05:12] ahr [05:12] mucho bong! [05:12] As for error messages, here's a simple example: (1) Open yelp to the default Hoary help page. (2) Choose "File" > "About this Document". (3) There is no step 3. [05:13] Maybe I've been pushing Hoary too hard, and it's starting to fall apart [05:13] 2/3 of the gnome-games don't have icons any more [05:14] Or maybe I just have the evil touch :-) [05:20] mvirkkil, yes 1.3 === jdub [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [~mdke@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === swe3tdave_ [~swe3tdave@Toronto-HSE-ppp3761490.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === SquishyWaffle [~GTaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:24] howdy [09:24] I don't know who to direct this to but I had some feedback that I was hoping some of the doc team leaders could peek at. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=203332#post203332 [09:25] In regards to wiki ergonomics and making things easier to get around in. [09:33] or maybe this is the wrong place to ask since I hear you guys mostly do the stuff via SVN :) [09:33] hi SquishyWaffle [09:33] i'll check it out [09:33] hello [09:34] i'll reply on that thread too [09:34] thanks for that [09:34] i see henrik is involved in that thread [09:34] ok, I'm not trying to complain, I just really love the idea of good documentation and I want to see the work everyone is investing go to good use [09:35] sure i agree [09:35] ah is that your post? [09:36] SquishyWaffle, lets talk about it now then if you like [09:36] sure [09:36] I was the last one, GTaylor [09:36] ok [09:36] i'm matt [09:36] ok [09:36] now [09:36] 1. speed [09:37] the speed will be greatly increased after the transition to the new enging [09:37] *engine [09:37] that's definitely good news [09:37] ok [09:37] 2. mediawiki [09:37] out of the question i'm afraid [09:38] ok, not a big deal [09:38] the ubuntu guys considered it and rejected it [09:38] sadly [09:38] 3. images [09:38] just link them by filename and they will appear [09:38] e.g. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PicDoc.png [09:39] is there a way to easily upload/resize on-page? [09:39] upload yeah [09:39] lemme fine the exact button [09:39] *find [09:39] ok "add image" [09:40] you can't resize on page at the moment, maybe with the new engine it will be possible [09:40] ok [09:40] erm [09:40] 4. html [09:40] no [09:40] there is only MoinMoin markup [09:41] 5. categories [09:41] supported by the new engine [09:41] :) [09:41] hmm what else [09:42] i'm not sure i agree that gentoo are one of our big contenders... but still they do have much better docs than us [09:42] well that covers what I had wondered and is re-assuring [09:42] big contenders in docs :) [09:42] yeah that would be something to aim for [09:42] but they will quickly be outstripped as the Wiki grows [09:42] well the official gentoo docs are better too [09:43] that brings up another point, what's this I'm hearing about SVN-based docs when we have the Wiki? [09:43] our official docs are developed in an svn repository in xml docbook format [09:44] what goes in those versus the wiki? [09:44] couple of points here [09:44] first, we will use parts of the wiki, and other doc sources when writing those documents [09:45] secondly, we are working on a means to convert wiki documents, where they are very good, to xml docbook and publish them [09:45] publish them as in paperback? [09:45] no i mean in the distribution and on the website [09:46] But I'm curious as to why we're doing that when I'd imagine we should be able to do it on the Wiki [09:46] *grins* [09:46] see gentoo [09:46] the wiki is essentially a brainstorming area [09:46] yeah, but see Wikipedia [09:46] where anyone can edit and contribute [09:47] we don't have that sort of quality of editors [09:47] heh, shucks [09:47] quality/quantity ;) [09:47] ok, so your project is basically a refining of what's on the wiki? [09:48] SquishyWaffle, there are some books being worked on as well [09:48] guides [09:48] that's good to hear too, I wish this stuff was more publicized [09:48] yeah we need to work on that [09:48] our methodology is a little bit sketchy at the moment [09:48] I'd love to see them give more people access to the announcement forums so you guys can keep everyone hyped up :) [09:48] so when it is stabilised we will publish it better [09:49] hmm [09:49] i know henrik and others are very keen on developing the forums/docteam relationship [09:49] me too [09:49] when the new wiki is out we can port some guides forum->wiki [09:50] well is there anywhere I can see what you guys are working on right now? [09:50] https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam [09:50] its a start [09:50] although not necessarily complete [09:52] So I take it this is your main project right now?: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/quickguide/ [09:56] looks like there are some good things in the works [09:57] quickguide is done basically, we've got a kde one now [09:57] i'm trying to get behind the userguide [09:57] its quite raw atm [09:58] i'm working on the install guide [09:58] trying to put the network install guide from the wiki into the install guide [09:58] jjesse, awesome [09:59] I'd really like to help in some way. I'm a Kubuntu user/packager and would love to assist [09:59] thanks mdke [10:00] SquishyWaffle, ok that would be great [10:00] SquishyWaffle, you can checkout our repository and have a poke around [10:00] Where is help needed the most? [10:01] difficult to say right now [10:01] we will be having a meeting soon and hopefully we can establish our targets [10:01] would be great if you join [10:01] when is the meeting? [10:01] not set yet [10:02] shoot, the KDE docs haven't even been started :) That's a pretty ripe area [10:02] SquishyWaffle, we have a kde quickguide, but nothing else i believe [10:02] hrm, no active link to it on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects [10:02] SquishyWaffle, if you join the mailing list, you can make sure you don't miss the meeting [10:02] ok, will do [10:03] SquishyWaffle, we can help you get our repository to have a look [10:04] SquishyWaffle, the previews on that projects page are not maintained i'm afraid, best way is to see the repository [10:05] https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde/kquickguide/C/kquickguide.xml [10:05] ok [10:05] and are you guys editing this by hand or using a GUI tool of some sort? [10:06] gedit for me [10:07] it supports syntax highlighting [10:07] ok, guess I have a mark-up language to learn :) [10:07] :) [10:07] SquishyWaffle, i haven't really learnt it yet [10:08] i just copy whats already there [10:08] its like html basically [10:08] yeah [10:09] SquishyWaffle, there may also be a easy reference help project being worked on soon [10:09] best to wait for the meeting and see how the targets go [10:10] ok, I can start playing with what's in the repository. Are there guides on the wiki to compiling things locally for testing? [10:10] you can just open the document [10:10] "yelp path/to/xml" [10:10] yelp :) [10:11] or whatever kde uses [10:11] sounds violent [10:11] kdehelpcenter or something [10:12] kdehelpcenter [10:13] though if i recall from froud kdehelpcenter doesn't do the convert on the fly or something like that [10:13] it should be able to read xml? [10:13] convert on the fly? [10:13] trying to remember a conversatation w/ froud about converting to html or something like that? [10:14] shouldn't be necessary [10:14] i think it reads the xml [10:14] yelp certainly does [10:16] will these documents we're writing be in the KDE/Gnome help systems too? [10:16] yelp is the gnome help system [10:16] so yeah that's the idea [10:16] very good [10:16] but they don't get pushed upstream cos they are docs for ubuntu [10:17] yeah, I'm just hoping they'll be easy to find and open up within Gnome/KDE [10:17] oh right [10:17] yeah they are in the main menu [10:17] under System [10:17] -> Help [10:17] again, dunno about kde [10:18] btw I replied on that thread with the same stuff I told ya here [10:18] in KDE there are a lot of branches from the main page, I'm hoping that'll be cleaned up a little [10:18] ok good [10:18] its khelpcenter [10:18] for kde [10:19] hopped on the mailing list [10:20] cool [10:20] bear with us for a bit because today we lost our main contributor, so things will need reorganising, hence the meeting [10:20] ouch, ok [10:26] we lost our main contributer? [10:26] did i miss an email about that or somethng? [10:26] jjesse, no email as yet [10:26] froud has decided to quit [10:26] mdke oh thats too bad [10:26] i really got along w/ him [10:26] yeah [10:27] he was a hard worker for the cause :) [10:27] but these things will happen and we will carry on [10:27] is there an email going to come out? [10:28] i hope so [10:28] he said that he has unsubscribed, but I hope that he will email [10:31] that really stinks i wonder why he left [10:31] life gets busy/hard at times :( === mdke nods [10:32] the forum has such a busy interface [10:32] where is the thing to subscribe to the thread? [10:33] ah its in thread tools [10:37] woohoo, 100 posts [10:37] *grins* [10:37] 7! [10:37] oh no [10:37] 6! [10:38] on a roll [10:39] anyone find it ironic that those messenger buttons under avatars don't work under Linux? :) [10:39] (unless you do some manual labor) [10:40] which? [10:44] none of them work for me [10:44] of what? [10:44]