[12:01] <mdz> jbailey: ping
[12:08] <mdz> Lathiat: apparently someone else has experienced this: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10900
[12:08] <mdz> Lathiat: the installer certainly doesn't intend to add fstab entries for a flash drive; perhaps it is being treated as a CD-ROM
[12:09] <mdz> Lathiat: please send a copy of the fstab after install to Bugzilla if you find one
[12:12] <wasabi_> mdz, jbailey says he's going to try to tackle libxerces2-java tomorrow. I am out of time this week for it.
[12:12] <mdz> wasabi_: I fixed it today
[12:33] <jdub> http://gtkperf.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=testing&id=1
[12:33] <jdub> ^ site has an ubuntu logo on it ;)
[12:34] <tseng> jdub: a nice one too
[12:34] <tseng> wow.
[12:35] <seb128_> daniels: where is XRes.h ??
[12:35] <seb128_> boooog
[12:36] <ogra> seb128, my pbuilder doesnt find Xlibs.h anymore since today
[12:37] <uniq> i can confirm that.
[12:37] <uniq> Xlib.h rather. 
[12:37] <uniq> same goes for Xutil.h
[12:38] <seb128> daniels has declared .h files useless, that's it? :)
[12:38] <uniq> my guess is that x11proto-gl-dev (and probably atleast one more) lags behind. 
[12:38] <uniq> they are there.. just beeing moved around.
[12:38] <shaya> seb128: he's a c++ programer?
[12:38] <shaya> :)
[12:38] <uniq> seb128: they are at /usr/X11R6/include/X11 
[12:39] <ogra> seb128, yeah, looks like
[12:40] <shaya> btw, on the wiki anywhere is there a plan that describes what's going on with X and why?
[12:40] <seb128> uniq: XRes.h is not
[12:40] <shaya> I'm just curious
[12:40] <ogra> uniq, yes... 
[12:45] <uniq> seb128: yes, xres.h is gone. 
[12:45] <seb128> daaaaanieeeeel
[12:47] <Nafallo> seb128: does he highlight that? ;-)
[12:47] <seb128> not sure :)
[12:47] <Nafallo> he probably should ;-)
[12:48] <Nafallo> and wire his alarmclock to it ;-)
[12:49] <zyga> hello
[12:50] <zyga> I've rewritten chattr and included user-friendly argp command line parser
[12:50] <zyga> I was wondering if anyone would be interested in taking a look
[12:51] <lsuactiafner> zyga : you seem to be very busy with scrips
[12:51] <lsuactiafner> heh
[12:51] <zyga> lsuactiafner: ?
[12:51] <lsuactiafner> your mplayer-rtc seems to have improved my sync
[12:51] <zyga> lsuactiafner: thats good to hear
[12:51] <lsuactiafner> i think it was you..
[12:51] <zyga> lsuactiafner: yes
[12:51] <lsuactiafner> watched a movie today and could lip read
[12:52] <zyga> lsuactiafner: but that script is very questionable as I've learned (bad way to do what I wanted to do)
[12:52] <lsuactiafner> didnt notice the out of sync was that bad before since i watch anime mostly
[12:53] <lsuactiafner> worksforme(tm)
[12:53] <lsuactiafner> and i'm critical of most packages
[12:53] <zyga> lsuactiafner: you don't have a centrino cpu ;-)
[12:54] <lsuactiafner> ah ok hehehe
[12:54] <lsuactiafner> cat /proc/cpuinfo ; if not centrino then go ahead..
[12:55] <zyga> actually if I could detect that speedstep stuff this way that would be enough
[12:58] <mjg59> allee: Hi
[12:59] <allee> mjg59: hi ...
[01:00] <allee> mjg59: where is the translation in xkb/symbol/* of:  key (like <i65>) to keycode (of xev) defined?  Once I knew :(
[01:00] <mjg59> allee: That's based on your keymap
[01:00] <mjg59> xkb sets it
[01:00] <mjg59> The kernel gets a scancode from the keyboard. It turns that into a keycode and gives it to X. X uses its xkb table to turn that into a keysym.
[01:02] <jdub> mjg59: o/~ the thigh bone's connected to the knee bone... o/~
[01:02] <allee> mjg59: the way of the event is clear to me.  but I miss what to use for key <xyz> to get out the right keycode keysym combo
[01:03] <wasabi_> mdz, oh what did you do?
[01:03] <allee> mjg59: I did it once year ago but can't find it :(
[01:03] <mjg59> allee: I'm not quite sure what you mean
[01:04] <mjg59> The keycode keysym combination is keymap specific
[01:04] <allee> mjg59: status:  I have the keycode (from xev).  I know the XF86<whatever> from XF86symdef.h (or so) ...
[01:06] <allee> mjg59: but to write add a map in xkb/inet  I to find the translation table  keycode -> key <xyz>.
[01:07] <mjg59> allee: Look under /etc/X11/xkb
[01:07] <mdz> wasabi_: I had it build against the dom2 stuff in libjaxp1.2-java (you don't read ubuntu-changes?)
[01:07] <allee> mjg59: done.  but I check again.
[01:07] <mdz> wasabi_: unfortunately ecj wouldn't compile it, so it's still using jikes at the moment
[01:09] <mjg59> allee: I don't pretend to understand xkb. It's a complicated specification.
[01:09] <allee> mjg59: me too :(
[01:10] <mdz> wasabi_: I got a very weird failure on libbsf-java: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/libb/libbsf-java/1:2.3.0+cvs20050308-1ubuntu2/libbsf-java_1:2.3.0+cvs20050308-1ubuntu2_20050607-2349-i386-failed.gz
[01:10] <allee> mjg59: nevertheless it drives me cracy that I cant find the keycode defs of <SPCE>  <AE01>  etc :(
[01:10] <mdz> all I did was remove the jython deps and test that it still built locally
[01:15] <allee> mjg59: thx for making me search twice.  Now I can produce a xkb symbol file :)
[01:18] <dholbach> good night, have a nice evening
[01:30] <wasabi_> mdz, I don't tend to read nor pay that much attention to anything while at work all day. ;)
[01:30] <wasabi_> But I do idle in IRC and read/say things as my nick hilights
[01:39] <eazel7> hi ppl
[01:39] <pitti> night everybody
[01:41] <jbailey> mdz: pong
[01:42] <mdz> jbailey: looking for updates on EarlyUserspace, especially the hook for LTSP and getting hotplug or hotplug-ng going
[01:44] <jbailey> mdz: I worked out with Fabio this morning how we're going to make it so that you can use initramfs with an option in /etc/kernel-img.conf.  I have some test hooks in my local tree right now but they just execute whatever scripts in a directory unordered, which I think won't work.  For the hotplug stuff, there's bits in 2.6.12-rc6 which Fabio is working on tomorrow that allow you to just feed that info to mod
[01:44] <jbailey> probe to load the right driver.
[01:45] <jbailey> mdz: So there should be no need for hotplug-ng in the initramfs at all.
[01:46] <jbailey> mdz: Also, I have mdadm tentatively working, but there's a segfault that wants 1.0.10 at least to fix (or a fix backported that I looked at this afternoon before I ran out)
[01:46] <jbailey> I've listed in the EarlyUserspace spec all the configs I think we have to support and a status beside them.
[01:50] <jbailey> mdz: I also looked at what it would take to use busybox + uclibc.  busybox's modprobe doesn't support ppc64 and uclibc doesn't have the pieces for hppa, ia64 or x86-64.  It looks like I can get it down to about 400k with the features that I need, though.
[02:03] <\sh> good night folks :)
[02:23] <lamont> mdz: 10463: fixed in breezy postfix, I believe...  is that worth a hoary-updates?
[03:22] <mdz> jbailey: what are the bits in 2.6.12-rc6 like?  a tool which scans the various buses and calls modprobe?
[03:23] <mdz> jbailey: how is it different from hotplug-ng or hotplug?
[03:24] <jbailey> hotplug-ng is just a hotplug bit that accepts the calls from kernelspace.  hotplug includes a bunch of 'coldplug' scripts that walk the bus and sorts out what should be loaded when.
[03:25] <jbailey> Those were going to be ported to hotplug-ng, but in the annoucement of v002 on lkml he mentioned this new thing for coldplugging.
[03:25] <jbailey> (fetching)
[03:26] <jbailey> http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/5/6/101
[03:27] <jbailey> It appears to put all the information needed into sysfs.  Because fabio's uploading -rc6, it semes to make sense to take a look at it before moving all the old hotplug scripts into the initramfs.
[03:44] <daniels> jdub: what's happening with your X?
[03:44] <jdub> daniels: keyboard seems non-functional once X starts
[03:45] <jdub> daniels: though, i haven't remotely killed it to see if it still works at the console after the fact
[03:45] <jdub> hold on, i'll try
[03:45] <jdub> oh
[03:45] <jdub> that's great
[03:45] <jdub> screen goes blank, doesn't chvt, and ctrl-alt-fx doesn't work
[03:54] <daniels> er, wack
[03:54] <daniels> send me your log and I'll do what I can
[03:55] <daniels> got to drop offline for a little bit now, back in ~1hr
[03:58] <schweeb> jdub: I've had that problem before myself
[03:58] <schweeb> (with breezy)
[03:58] <schweeb> but I'm back on safe old hoary now ;)
[04:01] <jdub> ha ha
[04:03] <jsgotangco> Ubuntu Jingle?
[04:03] <jdub> UM-BONGO!
[04:04] <jsgotangco> this i gotta hear
[04:05] <Keybuk> it's just under an hour into Season 2, Episode 13
[04:06] <jsgotangco> gotcha
[04:13] <tseng> i know, we'll call it ubuntu!
[04:13] <tseng> thats brilliant.
[04:14] <Keybuk> it makes a lot more sense if you got the Umbungo TV adverts, I guess
[04:19] <jsgotangco> oh my god
[04:22] <mdz> jbailey: won't we need hotplugging functionality anyway, in order to handle e.g. USB?
[04:25] <jbailey> mdz: The only case I can think of was someone racing to plug their USB device in that's required for boot after the initramfs had started and before the bit needing the device ran.
[04:25] <jbailey> Aside from that, the system hotplug should deal with it when it fires up.
[04:30] <jbailey> Food time
[04:55] <mdz> jbailey: I'm more interested in, e.g., USB keyboards
[04:55] <mdz> which need to be activated as early as possible for debugging and recovery
[05:03] <whiprush> jdub: fridge!
[05:03] <lu|away> whipppprush
[05:04] <ajmitch> hey whiprush 
[05:04] <whiprush> so much news lately ... need ... place ... to ... post .... <boom>
[05:04] <whiprush> heya luis, aj.
[05:04] <lu|away> hrm
[05:04] <lu|away> there was something I wanted to steal you away from ubuntu for
[05:04] <lu|away> but now I can't remember what it was
[05:04] <lu|away> :)
[05:04] <whiprush> me?
[05:04] <whiprush> whew!
[05:04] <lu|away> yeah
[05:04] <lu|away> :)
[05:06] <jbailey> mdz: Right, but the coldplugging pass should cover all those.
[05:06] <jbailey> Hmm.
[05:06] <jbailey> I guess there could be a cryptroot or debug setup where the user gets prompted for a password and discovers at that point that they need a keyboard handy.
[05:43] <whiprush> jdub: ping.
[05:43] <bob2> FRIDGE
[05:44] <jsgotangco> FRIDGE
[05:44] <whiprush> put your drinks in the fridge bob2
[05:44] <bob2> whiprush: I would if there WAS ONE.
[05:45] <whiprush> Well, I'm ready to give out the drinks.
[05:45] <fabbione> morning
[05:45] <fabbione> mdz: ping?
[05:46] <whiprush> bob2: hmmm, jdub is running a prototype off his dsl just running drupal.
[05:49] <whiprush> bob2: think he'll mind if I set up a prototype on a proper host and get people started on stuff?
[05:50] <bob2> last time I spoke for jdub I ended up in the bottom of sydney harbour with concrete shoes
[05:50] <whiprush> the hair float you back up?
[05:50] <bob2> fortunately
[05:50] <bob2> but I don't know if I'd be so lucky the second time!
[05:51] <whiprush> "Luckily the air was trapped in my hair so I could survive long enough to be rescued. I'll get you Jeff Waugh!"
[05:55] <bob2> *brrrrrruh*
[05:55] <ajmitch> hi bob2 
[05:55] <bob2> aloha
[05:56] <ajmitch> yay, a new bazaar package
[05:56] <bob2> shiny! NEW!
[05:56] <ajmitch> is there a proper changelog in it somewhere?
[05:57] <syndicate> whiprush: i'm with you
[05:58] <syndicate> been fixing this iSCSI drive
[05:58] <syndicate> r
[06:13] <Jormundgand> Could we get some bugfixes backported from Firefox Deer Park alpha 1?
[06:15] <bob2> if there are serious existing bugs in the bts on firefox, which are fixed in a later version, please post patches to the bugs
[06:20] <lifeless> mako: are you mako@ubuntu.com ?
[06:21] <Jormundgand> bob2: Easier said than done, unfortunately. I am by no standards a programmer, and I'm certainly not equipped to tackle something the size of Firefox.
[06:28] <Lathiat> mdz: its not a lash drive, its a 200GB external hard drive
[06:37] <daniels> jdub: any luck with the log?
[06:39] <Lathiat> mdz: *flash
[06:57] <mako> lifeless: umm.. yes
[06:57] <lifeless> have you had correspondence from Aldo ?
[06:57] <mako> lifeless: why?
[06:58] <mako> lifeless: i send like 200+ messages a day
[06:58] <lifeless> random I want to be a developer and have cd's email landed in my mailbox
[06:58] <lifeless> want to flick it to you
[06:58] <mako> lifeless: go ahead, i looked in my sent mail and didn't see anything
[06:58] <lifeless> done
[06:59] <lifeless> thanks
[07:02] <fabbione> hey mako!
[07:10] <mako> i'm off to sleep
[07:17] <mdz> fabbione: yes?
[07:17] <fabbione> mdz: busy?
[07:17] <mdz> Lathiat: they use exactly the same driver, you see
[07:17] <mdz> fabbione: going to bed shortly
[07:17] <Lathiat> mdz: yeh :)
[07:18] <Lathiat> mdz: i'll let you know
[07:18] <fabbione> mdz: eheh ok..
[07:23] <mdz> Kamion: I could really use a way to tell ssh to close the connection when the command exits, rather than allowing x11 forwards to linger open.  is there any way to do that?
[07:30] <Lathiat> mdz: could just -f it ?
[07:31] <Lathiat> mdz: theres also -& "Background ssh at logout whenw aiting for forwarded connetion/X11 sessiosn to terminate"
[07:31] <Lathiat> oh, actually, thats a ~ escape thing, my bad
[08:19] <Amaranth> i think i missed the end of the meeting :D
[08:19] <Amaranth> right as i was about to talk my internet died and stayed dead for 6 hours
[08:37] <pitti> Morning
[08:37] <Amaranth> morning
[08:38] <jsgotangco> morning
[09:31] <ajmitch> hi JaneW 
[09:35] <pitti> Hi JaneW
[09:35] <pitti> ajmitch: Hi, what's new in selinux land? :)
[09:39] <ajmitch> pitti: selinux patches may start landing in debian soon, i hope :)
[09:42] <ajmitch> I haven't talked with manoj about it yet, and I've got to finish off the 0.76 pam patching
[10:07] <whiprush> jsgotangco: awake?
[10:07] <ajmitch> hi sabdfl 
[10:07] <sabdfl> hi guys
[10:07] <whiprush> morning sabdfl 
[10:08] <jsgotangco> whiprush, hey
[10:08] <fabbione> hey sabdfl 
[10:08] <jsgotangco> morning sabdfl 
[10:08] <jsgotangco> sure im awake its only 4pm
[10:08] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:08] <whiprush> jsgotangco: I have a cool fridge/docteam idea I need to run by you. I'm editing the spec, gimme a few minutes.
[10:08] <jsgotangco> sure
[10:09] <Simira> morning sabdfl, fabbione 
[10:09] <sabdfl> hey simira!
[10:09] <jsgotangco> ill continue listening to my weird japanese heavy metal cd then
[10:09] <sabdfl> Simira: how are you feeling?
[10:10] <Simira> sabdfl: well, I've got a serious cold, but else I'm fine. When are you leaving for Bergen? Saturday?
[10:11] <sabdfl> ah, thanks for the reminder, i'll sing Happy Birthday on #canonical :-)
[10:11] <JaneW> hi ajmitch/pitti
[10:12] <jsgotangco> err is that a lego set?
[10:12] <fabbione> hi Simira :)
[10:12] <sabdfl> hey fabbione!
[10:12] <Simira> jsgotangco: Mindstorms
[10:12] <fabbione> sabdfl: how is life in uk today?
[10:12] <jsgotangco> whoa
[10:13] <sabdfl> fabbione: blue blue skies, so of course i'm flying out this afternoon to Galicia
[10:13] <fabbione> sabdfl: ah cool :)
[10:13] <JaneW> Simira: cute! is that from you?
[10:13] <sabdfl> fabbione: to mars? or galicia?
[10:13] <fabbione> both :)
[10:13] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:13] <JaneW> sabdfl: are we meeting up at the school on saturday?
[10:14] <Simira> JaneW: me, and a few others. Mindstorms + MArs exploration expansion
[10:14] <fabbione> but galicia would be a good start ;)
[10:14] <JaneW> Simira: my son would love that!
[10:14] <jsgotangco> heh i would love a set of mindstorms as well
[10:14] <jsgotangco> (for myself)
[10:15] <Simira> JaneW: you should bring him when you're coming to Oslo, then ;)
[10:15] <JaneW> HAPPY BIRTHDAY Mithrandir !
[10:15] <JaneW> Simira: shame I wish I could... 
[10:15] <Mithrandir> thanks JaneW :-)
[10:15] <jsgotangco> Mithrandir, Maligayang Bati sa iyong Kaarawan (happy birthday)
[10:18] <ajmitch> Mithrandir: happy birthday :)
[10:21] <jsgotangco> hmm
[10:24] <whiprush> jsgotangco: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TheFridge
[10:24] <whiprush> see the "Original Content" section.
[10:27] <JaneW> Mithrandir: gratulerer med dagen :)
[10:27] <jsgotangco> whiprush, we have a wiki transition at the moment where henrik is in charge
[10:27] <jsgotangco> whiprush, but the end result of the transition is that we'll have clean docs
[10:28] <whiprush> excellent.
[10:28] <whiprush> obviously we don't want to do this in the middle of the wiki transition.
[10:29] <jsgotangco> i'll revisit this option once the wiki transition is done and the fridge can be viewed
[10:29] <whiprush> okey.
[10:34] <jsgotangco> whiprush, the spec is awesome i'm sold on it heh
[10:34] <whiprush> I have more ideas I'm adding.
[10:34] <whiprush> I was sleeping then got motivated for some reason (It's 4:30am here.)
[10:35] <jsgotangco> yes i notice you are still awake
[10:41] <pitti> Kamion: got a minute to talk about CD-ROMs in pmount vs. fstab?
[11:12] <Lathiat> wow, first kernel vuln in a while
[11:14] <fabbione> Lathiat: ?
[11:14] <pitti> he certainly means the USN released this morning
[11:15] <Lathiat> indeed
[11:15] <fabbione> oh you unleashed it this morning :)
[11:15] <fabbione> that makes sense
[11:15] <bob2> hah
[11:15] <pitti> fabbione: sorry, the build took a while and I sort of forget about it yesterday evening
[11:15] <fabbione> ahah
[11:15] <pitti> fabbione: I hacked at the alsa hotplug stuff for ours, who thinks about security at that time .. :-)
[11:16] <pitti> s/ours/hours/ *cough*
[11:16] <fabbione> so bets are open to see how many people will get an unbootable system
[11:16] <Lathiat> haha
[11:28] <zyga> hello
[11:28] <pitti> Hi zyga 
[11:29] <zyga> pitti: I rewritten part of e2fsprogs utils
[11:29] <zyga> pitti: to be more user friendly
[11:29] <pitti> uh, which?
[11:30] <zyga> I'm targeting all misc/ utilities (like chattr lsattr and so on)
[11:30] <zyga> right now I've finished chattra and sent the code to the maintainer I've found on the man page 
[11:30] <zyga> (no response yet)
[11:31] <zyga> I've added argp - it's now more like proper CLI tool
[11:31] <zyga> (old version was really bad here)
[11:32] <mvo> if newer udev no longer has a /.dev dir, dosn't /dev/MAKEDEV needs to be updated as well (it checks for /.dev to detect udev)?
[11:32] <zyga> I'd  be cool if ubuntu could get my improvements :)
[11:39] <Kamion> mdz: ssh> short of the ~& escape mentioned, I don't see a way to do that, I'm afraid
[11:43] <\sh> hmm...
[11:44] <\sh> when I'm using #include <limits> and then using std::numeric_limits<int>max() will it give me on 32bit and 64bit the maximum of int depending on the arch?
[11:45] <zyga> \sh: on amd64 int is still 32 bits
[11:46] <zyga> \sh: size_t will be 64 bits, long will be 64 bits but int stays 32 
[11:46] <\sh> ok...i will explain the other way around
[11:46] <\sh> right now, the source is using stdint.h
[11:47] <\sh> anjd trying to use INT64_MAX and INT32_MAX
[11:47] <\sh> when I compile this code with g++-4 it's complaining that those defines are not declared in this scope
[11:48] <\sh> so now, i'm trying to rewrite this section with real c++ code
[11:48] <\sh> using limits should help me..
[11:48] <zyga> hmm macros have global scope, don't they?
[11:48] <\sh> zyga: # define INT64_MAX              (__INT64_C(9223372036854775807))
[11:48] <\sh> this is the define in stdint.h
[11:48] <zyga> right
[11:49] <zyga> strange... what does the compiler say?
[11:49] <zyga> as for the proper-c++-method of doing this
[11:49] <zyga> I'm not a c++ developer but your limits approach sounds good
[11:49] <zyga> I just don't understand one thing
[11:49] <\sh> zyga: that INT64_MAX was not declared in this scope
[11:50] <\sh> funny thing is, u have to define another conditional define to include those defines
[11:50] <\sh> and it is
[11:50] <mvo> \sh: what package?
[11:50] <\sh> warped
[11:50] <\sh> there is a patch from debian
[11:50] <\sh> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=268250
[11:51] <\sh> but this is not working either
[11:51] <Amaranth> ooh, i got copy/paste working in smeg
[11:51] <zyga> does std::numeric_limits<int64_t>max() work?
[11:51] <Amaranth> now to make it worth having
[11:51] <\sh> zyga: i don't know..i want to try it
[11:51] <\sh> let me try the c++ solution
[11:51] <zyga> \sh: do you want different value based on current arch?
[11:51] <Kamion> pitti: sure ...
[11:52] <pitti> Kamion: mdz, ogra, and me had a short discussion yesterday about this CD-ROM issue
[11:52] <Kamion> pitti: the main thing is that /cdrom is used before pmount is installed
[11:52] <\sh> zyga: well, warped defines 
[11:52] <\sh> const warped64_t warped64Max = INT64_MAX;
[11:52] <\sh> const warped64_t warped64Min = INT64_MIN;
[11:52] <\sh> const warped64_t warped32Max = INT32_MAX;
[11:52] <\sh> const warped64_t warped32Min = INT32_MIN;
[11:52] <pitti> Kamion: are there issues with removing the cdrom stuff from fstab?
[11:52] <pitti> Kamion: ah, for apt-cdrom and the like?
[11:53] <Kamion> yes
[11:53] <pitti> hm, true
[11:53] <zyga> \sh: I see - well you might as well try to get those #defines working
[11:53] <Kamion> nowadays that's in the first stage, in fact, before the first reboot
[11:53] <zyga> \sh: they are probably regarded as 'evil' since they have global scope ;-)
[11:53] <Kamion> although mind you, apt-setup does 'mount $CDDEV /cdrom' or some such
[11:53] <pitti> mvo: would apt-cdrom be able to deal without an fstab entry?
[11:54] <Kamion> ah, but it looks in fstab to find the device
[11:54] <\sh> zyga: yes Iwill :) but it breaks on all archs :) and the debian patch breaks, too...so I need another solution..as we're speaking about c++ lets try the c++ way
[11:54] <Kamion> I think we might run into trouble in situations where the device is not just /dev/cdrom
[11:54] <pitti> Kamion: hm, right
[11:54] <Kamion> just trying to work out if that ever happens
[11:54] <pitti> Kamion: although it equally breaks on my system where the actual CD-ROM is _not_ /dev/cdrom nor /cdrom either
[11:54] <KaiL> 855resolution (or better a Version compatible with 915) should go into main - seams to be needed very often...
[11:54] <mvo> pitti: not right now
[11:55] <zyga> hmm
[11:55] <zyga> pitti: do you have /dev/cdrom ?
[11:55] <Kamion> pitti: let me try a quick install test with removable media support killed from partman-target
[11:56] <pitti> Kamion: hm, it's a special case either way (try to mount /dev/cdrom or /cdrom)
[11:56] <zyga> (on ubuntu I never had /dev/cdrom or /dev/dvd created)
[11:56] <Kamion> pitti: what is the actual problem with having it in fstab? I've never quite understod
[11:56] <Kamion> +o
[11:56] <pitti> zyga: yes, but I also have a /dev/cdrom1 and a /dev/cdrw, and my usual drive is the cdrw one
[11:56] <pitti> Kamion: oh, it's just to support changing hardware better
[11:56] <mvo> pitti: what would apt have to do to find a cdrom? what steps/dependencies would be involved?
[11:56] <zyga> pitti: strange... something must be buggy here I guess
[11:57] <pitti> mvo: well, on my system it seems to try to mount /cdrom
[11:57] <pitti> mvo: which fails, because the CD is in /media/cdrom1
[11:57] <zyga> pitti: what creates those links? I have none {cdrom,cdrw,dvd} ?
[11:57] <pitti> mvo: so instead of trying to mount /cdrom, maybe it could try to mount /dev/cd* until it finds a Debian CD?
[11:57] <pitti> zyga: udev
[11:58] <pitti> Kamion, mvo: if we manage to drop this hardcoded /cdrom from apt-cdrom, we might be able to drop the CD-ROMs from fstab at all and even make the stuff work on multi-CD systems, too
[11:59] <Kamion> pitti: I guess part of what concerns me is that, if we rely entirely on pmount for this, we screw over server installs. Servers have CD drives too ...
[11:59] <Kamion> and pmount is only in desktop
[11:59] <Kamion> pitti: also /dev/dvd*
[11:59] <zyga> pitti: oh well it's broken then 
[11:59] <mvo> pitti: if it depends on pmount I wouldn't want to do it. debian will probably not follow us here (at least not yet)
[11:59] <pitti> Kamion: well, apt-cdrom needs sudo anyway, so it could just use mount?
[11:59] <zyga> I got /media/cdrom and /media/cdrom0 but nothing in /dev
[12:00] <pitti> Kamion: I didn't thing about using pmount in apt-cdrom
[12:00] <Kamion> pitti: that only works for aptable CDs
[12:00] <Kamion> pitti: people want to mount CDs that we did not make, surprisingly enough ;-)
[12:00] <pitti> ah, ok
[12:00] <pitti> hm, fair point
[12:00] <Kamion> and 'mount /cdrom' is a traditional way to do it
[12:00] <Kamion> which I'm quite reluctant to break
[12:00] <pitti> we didn't think about that yesterday, we thought it was an easy thing to do
[12:00] <pitti> right, that should work
[12:01] <pitti> alright, then let's keep it like it is now
[12:04] <Kamion> pitti: isn't udev supposed to create a /dev/cdrom symlink in a sensible place?
[12:04] <pitti> Kamion: actually yes (it has worked fine for me since warty on my boxes)
[12:05] <Kamion> pitti: ah, I guess partman-target is using the canonical device names rather than /dev/cdrom
[12:05] <Kamion> pitti: would it help if I made it use /dev/cdrom etc. if available?
[12:05] <pitti> Kamion: I don't know in general, but it wouldn't help to unbreak apt-cdrom on my system at least
[12:06] <pitti> well, unbreak is too harsh
[12:06] <pitti> make it work better 
[12:06] <Kamion> pitti: it would seem to help with the hardware-changing case
[12:06] <pitti> Kamion: yes, for this use case it does
[12:07] <pitti> Kamion: not for the case where sb has more than one drive, but it shouldn't hurt either then
[12:11] <mvo> pitti: I think I could make apt smarter about multiple cdroms. if it importend for us I can spend a bit of time on it
[12:11] <mvo> pitti: it's a matter of checking /dev/{cd*,dvd*}?
[12:12] <pitti> mvo: it's not really a biggie, but if it could become smarter, that would rock
[12:12] <pitti> mvo: it should iterate through all /dev/cd* and dvd*, try to mount, check if it's an Ubuntu CD and unmount if it isn't
[12:13] <pitti> mvo: the mountpoint does not necessarily need to be /cdrom, right? It could be /var/foo/cdrom, as in the installer
[12:13] <pitti> mvo: so at least apt-cdrom would not depend on an fstab entry any more
[12:15] <Kamion> could just be /media/$devicetail
[12:15] <Kamion> which would fit with where (I think) Debian wants to go
[12:16] <mvo> that should be possible
[12:17] <pitti> Kamion: so if we had only one fstab entry for /dev/cdrom, that would reasonably cover the hw changing, too AFAICS
[12:17] <Kamion> until apt supports this, it's probably best to have the installer use /dev/cdrom only if that matches the drive your CD is actually in
[12:17] <pitti> right
[12:29] <HiddenWolf> Kamion, don't forget people who have dvd-drives only, (if that matters)
[12:29] <pitti> HiddenWolf: I have, and I still have /dev/cdrom
[12:32] <Kamion> HiddenWolf: udev has not forgotten them ;-)
[12:34] <fabbione> thom: are running ubuntu on ia64?
[12:35] <fabbione> if so does our kernel actually work?
[12:36] <thom> running the 2.6.10-5 kernel
[12:36] <thom> seems fine
[12:47] <bob2> so
[12:47] <bob2> warty amd64 was NPTL, right?
[12:47] <bob2> like every other debian-related amd64 port?
[12:48] <Kamion> amd64 never had LinuxThreads
[12:48] <Kamion> (AFAIK)
[12:48] <bob2> that's what I thought
[12:56] <fabbione> thom: ah cool
[12:56] <fabbione> thom: feel lucky to give 2.6.12 a shot?
[12:58] <thom> why not
[12:59] <fabbione> thom: i am just building 12rc6 if you really want something bleeeeeeeding edgeeee
[12:59] <fabbione> ;)
[12:59] <thom> i'll try 93-1.3 for now ;-)
[01:00] <fabbione> gcc-3.4: Internal error: Segmentation fault (program cc1)
[01:00] <fabbione> GO DAVIS! IT
[01:00] <fabbione> GO DAVIS! IT'S YOUR BIRTHDAY!
[01:01] <fabbione> thom: sure.. i plan to upload rc6 in one hour or max 2 anyway
[01:01] <fabbione> i need to wait davis to finish
[01:02] <fabbione> elmo: (btw that's only the 4th time since this morning.. it wasn't bad as usual)
[01:02] <bob2> I thought chinstrap was King Of  The Random Crashes
[01:03] <elmo> only for arch people
[01:03] <fabbione> bob2: nope.. chinstrap is nice and dandy :)
[01:09] <thom> 2.6.12 causes lots of red lights
[01:09] <thom> and no booting system
[01:10] <fabbione> neat
[01:10] <thom> not so much
[01:10] <thom> ;-)
[01:10] <fabbione> well there is not much i can do.. it's ia64 :)
[01:10] <elmo> ia64s are amusingly scary when they don't boot
[01:11] <fabbione> it builds.. it's ready for stable release ;)
[01:11] <fabbione> thom: i will hand you rc6 soon to see if it has been fixed
[01:11] <thom> making all sorts of fun noises too
[01:11] <fabbione> configs should be the same as .10 (or almost)
[01:12] <elmo> thom: the beeps actually make up "THE SKY IS FALLING" in morse code
[01:12] <fabbione> make[5] : *** [drivers/usb/media/pwc]  Segmentation fault
[01:12] <thom> elmo: seriously? (i can well believe it)
[01:12] <bob2> haha
[01:12] <fabbione> elmo: i start to think it's a temperature problem...
[01:12] <fabbione> more i go deep in the build, more it crashes
[01:13] <elmo> fabbione: I doubt it - the fans are on (at full speed) and the ia64 beneath it thinks the temperature is fine
[01:13] <elmo> thom: no :P
[01:13] <fabbione> rotfl
[01:13] <fabbione> elmo: probably ppc is allergic to ia64.. move it in another rack :)
[01:14] <fabbione> actually.. if you notice...
[01:14] <fabbione> davis started to segfault after Apple announced the switch to ia64..
[01:14] <fabbione> it that a coincidence?
[01:14] <elmo> ?!?! ia64?
[01:14] <fabbione> well they say intel..
[01:14] <fabbione> so my guess is ia64 :)
[01:16] <Burgundavia> fabbione, I think jobs specifically mentioned x86
[01:16] <Nafallo> pitti: :-). I'm lazy. I use /ame ;-)
[01:17] <fabbione> Burgundavia: apparently he only said intel
[01:20] <infinity> fabbione : The kenote was delivered while he was running OSX on a Pentium4, so it's a good bet that'll be the direction they go.
[01:20] <HrdwrBoB> infinity: most likely p-m
[01:20] <HrdwrBoB> but yeah, same thing
[01:20] <infinity> Not really.
[01:20] <infinity> P-M is a P3.
[01:20] <fabbione> infinity: i am betting on ia64 just to give a meaning to our buildds :)
[01:21] <infinity> fabbione : :)
[01:21] <HrdwrBoB> p-m runs at about the same speed as an a64, clock for clock, and it's much lower heat/power/etc
[01:21] <shawarma> When it says that the Community Council meetings are at 12:00 UTC.. That's PM, right? As in in the middle of the day?
[01:21] <elmo> hey the ia64's may be slow but they don't randomly segfault
[01:21] <HrdwrBoB> but the problem is now that PPC will become obsolete very quickly
[01:21] <fabbione> elmo: well.. after breezy release they won't even boot :)
[01:21] <elmo> HrdwrBoB: being shipped in millions of next gen consoles isn't exactly obsolete
[01:22] <HrdwrBoB> elmo: as a PC I mean
[01:22] <fabbione> HrdwrBoB: they will find a way to run Linux on consoles...
[01:22] <fabbione> do you think that's an issue?
[01:24] <HrdwrBoB> me?
[01:24] <HrdwrBoB> they will run it, but it won't be a mainstream thing
[01:25] <fabbione> probably
[01:36] <\sh> infinity: ping
[01:43] <koke> mvo: around?
[01:44] <mvo> koke: yes
[01:45] <koke> http://koke.amedias.org/img/g-a-i-mockup-1.png <-- I now it lacks an apply button, but that's my main idea
[01:45] <mvo> koke: integrating your patch right now
[01:45] <koke> great :)
[01:46] <koke> also the mockup needs some HIG love :)
[01:46] <\sh> HIG?
[01:46] <mvo> koke: I love the package view, I'm not sure about the left/right side
[01:47] <mvo> human-interface-guidlines
[01:47] <\sh> update manager? 
[01:48] <ogra> \sh, gnome app install
[01:48] <koke> mvo: left for browse/search packages
[01:48] <ajmitch> hey mvo, koke 
[01:48] <koke> right is the list of selected packages to install
[01:48] <ogra> koke, is the right pane necessary ?
[01:48] <ajmitch> koke: nice mockup
[01:49] <ajmitch> lots of blank space though
[01:49] <koke> ogra: the idea is to remove the checkboxes from the left
[01:49] <ogra> koke, and drop the left pane completely ?
[01:49] <koke> ogra: you mean browsing/searching from the browser?
[01:50] <ajmitch> koke: having blank space on both left & right is a bit much, don't you think?
[01:50] <ogra> cant you implement the search on the right ? o even better, mozilla like ....
[01:51] <ogra> koke, i would drop one of the panes.... else i think its awesome :)
[01:51] <koke> ajmitch: yep, that's why I said it needs HIG love ;)
[01:51] <koke> but you caught the main idea :)
[01:51] <ajmitch> yep, looks good :)
[01:51] <koke> maybe an expander
[01:52] <koke> do we have vertical expanders?? I don't think so
[01:53] <ogra> hmm
[01:53] <jdong> guys, quick question about the new *c2 package names....
[01:53] <ogra> ask :)
[01:54] <jdong> how do you want me to handle them?
[01:54] <Kamion> daniels: #11545's causing CD image trouble - sorry to hassle, but when will you get a chance to fix it?
[01:54] <\sh> mvo: where is your repos for gnome-app-install? ,-)
[01:54] <ogra> jdong, like we do it ?
[01:54] <jdong> I'm backporting qca for Hoary
[01:54] <Kamion> NOOOOO
[01:54] <mvo> \sh: it's in gnome-cvs
[01:54] <Kamion> jdong: use the C++ ABI in Hoary
[01:54] <jdong> do you want me to preserve the libqcac2?
[01:54] <ajmitch> jdong: c2 is only if it's built with the new C++ ABI
[01:54] <ogra> jdong, there is a bunch of wiki pages about the Cxx transition
[01:54] <jdong> ok, so you want me to strip off the "c2"?
[01:54] <Kamion> jdong: use package names that match those in Hoary
[01:55] <jdong> Kamion: the package isn't in Hoary ;)
[01:55] <Kamion> jdong: they may be missing c2 entirely, or they may have c102
[01:55] <Kamion> jdong: ok, probably drop c2 entirely then
[01:55] <ogra> jdong, it can be a PITA to backport c++ packages, i'd consider it twice
[01:55] <jdong> k
[01:55] <Kamion> jdong: doesn't libqca have a soname?
[01:55] <\sh> mvo: i have this repos here http://www.burtonini.com/arch/
[01:55] <\sh> and yours http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/arch/ubuntu/gnome-app-install--mvo--0/
[01:55] <Kamion> ah, libqca1c2
[01:55] <ogra> jdong, at least at this state of the transition...
[01:55] <Kamion> so make it libqca1
[01:56] <\sh> jdong: what?
[01:56] <mvo> \sh: ross recently imported it into gnome-cvs, I asked the baz people to import it from gnome-cvs back into arch again :)
[01:56] <Kamion> ogra: shouldn't be an issue as long as they only ever use the Hoary ABI
[01:56] <ogra> \sh, backpting c++ libs
[01:56] <Kamion> oh, although I guess the Breezy package would have to conflict with the backport
[01:56] <ogra> Kamion, i mean dependency wise.... 
[01:56] <jdong> Kamion: not really
[01:56] <Kamion>  Conflicts: libqca1
[01:56] <Kamion>  Replaces: libqca1
[01:56] <\sh> ogra: ja w8
[01:56] <ogra> Kamion, they do
[01:56] <Kamion> ... except it already does
[01:57] <Kamion> jdong: yes really. :)
[01:57] <ogra> Kamion, we conflict with the old names.... that shouldnt be an issue
[01:57] <jdong> I'll remove the Replaces:, but rename Conflicts: to libqcalc2
[01:57] <jdong> that ok?
[01:57] <Kamion> jdong: no, remove both replaces and conflicts
[01:57] <jdong> ok
[01:57] <Kamion> matching the version in Debian
[01:57] <\sh> jdong: source package qca
[01:57] <Kamion> ogra: it would be an issue if a C++ library were newly introduced in Breezy
[01:58] <ogra> Kamion, but we also apply debian patches for gcc4, so they might be incompatible with the old one in some cases....
[01:58] <mvo> koke: the main package view is great! but the lefthand side is not optimal. how would we eg display the categories?
[01:58] <Kamion> ogra: if they do, you've broken it, don't do that
[01:58] <ogra> depending on the patch
[01:58] <\sh> ogra: libqca is qt lib for tls stuff for psi
[01:58] <Kamion> ogra: patches for gcc4 should make it *more* standards-compliant, not less
[01:58] <\sh> ogra: and it doesn't have any patches
[01:58] <ogra> Kamion, i didnt try if they compile with the old version...
[01:59] <ogra> \sh, ok
[01:59] <Kamion> ogra: if a C++ library were newly introduced in Breezy, backporting it would involve adding c102 to the package name and getting the package in Breezy to conflict/replace the backport
[01:59] <Kamion> that would be correct ...
[01:59] <ogra> Kamion, yep
[01:59] <Kamion> ogra: you should, I think
[01:59] <Kamion> ogra: otherwise the patch cannot cleanly go upstream
[01:59] <Kamion> which should be part of our job
[01:59] <ogra> Kamion, they come *from* upstream (debian)
[01:59] <ajmitch> the most likely case of new C++ libs will still be syncs from sid
[02:00] <Kamion> ogra: they come from random Debian bug reports, usually
[02:00] <Kamion> which isn't quite the same thing
[02:00] <ogra> yep
[02:00] <Kamion> and that's only one step upstream, anyway
[02:00] <ogra> Kamion, i had the impression etch would switch soon to gcc4
[02:00] <Kamion> ogra: I imagine it will, yes. That doesn't mean upstream (not Debian) don't care about older compiler versions
[02:00] <ajmitch> ogra: depends on how long the flames last
[02:00] <ogra> so if they compile with gcc4 it should be fine
[02:01] <Kamion> it's just sloppy to fix for gcc4 and break older compilers, unless you know and clearly document that you're doing it ...
[02:01] <koke> mvo: it's like the current patch
[02:02] <koke> if there's no search, the categories view is shown
[02:02] <koke> http://koke.amedias.org/img/g-a-i-mockup-2.png <-- suggestions accepted :)
[02:02] <ogra> koke, looks way cooler :)
[02:03] <tseng> koke++
[02:04] <tseng> the top left box should wrap lines
[02:04] <tseng> vs horizontal scrolling
[02:04] <tseng> thats the only ugly part
[02:04] <ajmitch> koke: looking better
[02:04] <Nafallo> koke: nice :-)
[02:04] <tseng> or better
[02:04] <tseng> you could use the ellipsizing widget from gtk 2.6
[02:04] <zul> heylo
[02:05] <tseng> as in "Instant messaging client for multiple..." when you run out of space
[02:07] <whiprush> omg, slick-n-run lives.
[02:08] <Amaranth> koke: hey, can you make the g-a-i we have now work while you're at it? ;)
[02:09] <mvo> koke: I think that it looks nicer this way :) 
[02:09] <Amaranth> yes, i like this design
[02:09] <Amaranth> where does it get it's app list from?
[02:09] <jdong> and another question relating to the Forums: what should we recommend as the preferred way of compiling/installing from source? Checkinstall? /usr/local?
[02:10] <Kamion> either of those should work fine, as long as it doesn't touch /usr outside /usr/local ...
[02:10] <jdong> so you guys are fine with either method?
[02:10] <Kamion> speaking for myself only
[02:11] <jdong> k
[02:11] <Kamion> I don't really see a need to recommend a single method; I don't find that one size fits all
[02:11] <Kamion> but I don't know checkinstall well
[02:11] <koke> Amaranth: that data is hard-coded (by now) :P
[02:12] <Amaranth> koke: but where will it come from eventually?
[02:12] <Amaranth> koke: the package data and the screenshot, i mean
[02:12] <ajmitch> Amaranth: eventually launchpad, I'd say
[02:13] <Amaranth> launchpad? this is ubuntu specific, isn't it?
[02:13] <jdong> Kamion: it makes a very hasty .deb, so at least the installed files are managed by the dpkg system
[02:13] <Amaranth> unless you're using that autopackage crack :)
[02:13] <Kamion> jdong: using /usr or /usr/local?
[02:14] <mvo> Amaranth: the .desktop files of the packages provide quite a bit of information already
[02:14] <jdong> Kamion: wherever 'make install' does it by default
[02:14] <Kamion> I guess if it's in a .deb, /usr is sort of OK, but it brings up issues of distributed packages having to conflict with local packages, so /usr/local would be better
[02:14] <Kamion> jdong: ok, should generally be /usr/local then
[02:14] <koke> Amaranth: my idea is to integrate with launchpad
[02:14] <jdong> Kamion: yeah, depending on the source... Lots of stuff, in my experience, install in /usr by default
[02:15] <koke> I'll heve to talk to the launchpad guys about extending DOAP
[02:15] <koke> http://155.210.13.152/fpkgs/web-details-gaim.html <-- this could be the view for an apps.ubuntu.com (?)
[02:15] <Kamion> jdong: might be worth advising people to be cautious; if they install stuff into /usr, they can't expect support for that situation
[02:15] <koke> I mean, similar view, with an "install this" button
[02:17] <Amaranth> koke: aside from the wrapping issue there it looks nice :)
[02:18] <\sh> koke: can't we create an xml file out of the Packages and putting these infos into DOAP and let the user fill in screenshot and all?
[02:18] <Amaranth> can konq handle XHTML 1.1 (you need to send as application/xml+xhtml)?
[02:18] <\sh> Amaranth: tryit :) normally yes
[02:19] <\sh> (latest versions i think)
[02:19] <mvo> koke: does your mockup already uses pymozemed?
[02:19] <koke> \sh: DOAP is an RDF format, ergo it's XML
[02:19] <Amaranth> \sh: I don't know any site using 1.1, you'd be nuts to use it on a regular website.
[02:19] <koke> mvo: yep, it's called gtkmozembed though
[02:19] <jdong> can someone (attempt) to explain to me how the msttcorefonts package works?
[02:20] <Zomb> jdong: IIRC it fetches the MS fonts packages from sourceforge or so and installs the ttf files
[02:21] <Zomb> or tries to make symlinks to your local fonts (Windows installation), I don't remember
[02:21] <Lathiat> jdong: any chance of fixing transcode?
[02:21] <jdong> Zomb: it fetches.. that's what I'm interested in
[02:21] <jdong> Lathiat: what's wrong?
[02:21] <Lathiat> jdong: uninstallable
[02:21] <Lathiat> jdong: libgcc1 broken dep
[02:22] <jdong> Lathiat: strange; it works here
[02:22] <Lathiat> transcode: Depends: libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.0-7) but 1:4.0-0pre6ubuntu7 is to be installed
[02:22] <ogra> jdong, if you point users to the checkinstall method, make clear that checkinstall packages have *no* dependencys (a little warning or something would be nice here)
[02:22] <jdong> Lathiat: what architecture?
[02:22] <Lathiat> jdong: x86
[02:22] <jdong> ogra: sure
[02:23] <jdong> Lathiat: hoary-backports has libgcc1 v 1:4.0.0-7ubuntu6~5.04ubp1
[02:23] <ajmitch> Lathiat: is it fetching transcode from backports?
[02:24] <jdong> As far as msttcorefonts, I'm interested in how the fetching mechanism works; I want to make similar packages for Java & such
[02:24] <Lathiat> jdong: i only show libgcc1 from archive.u.c
[02:25] <Lathiat> ajmitch: yes
[02:25] <Lathiat> ahh
[02:25] <Lathiat> i have hoary-backports commented
[02:25] <jdong> Lathiat: LOL
[02:25] <Lathiat> any reason it cant use ubuntus version of libgcc?
[02:25] <ajmitch> apt-cache policy can be your friend
[02:25] <Lathiat> ajmitch: well i wasnt aware until jdong told me that backports had its own libgcc1 version
[02:25] <jdong> Lathiat: transcode's makefile calls gcc-4.0 explicitly
[02:26] <Amaranth> that's crack
[02:26] <jdong> I'd rather not violate that...
[02:26] <Reza_1> Hello, I have some questions about Breezy Bounties. I want to work on http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/SmallBusinessServer, what should I write in my proposal?
[02:26] <Lathiat> i was trying not to use backports and only extras for a couple things
[02:26] <jdong> Lathiat: nothing wrong with just pulling a few debs individually from the backports archive...
[02:26] <Lathiat> there goes that idea
[02:26] <Lathiat> installs now :)
[02:28] <\sh> jdong: how is it going with the migration of backports into ubuntu backports?
[02:29] <ogra> \sh, you will see it...
[02:29] <jdong> \sh: in the keysigning stage ;)
[02:29] <jdong> I need to talk with a local guy about my key
[02:29] <ogra> \sh, jdon needs upload rights to the main servers....
[02:29] <jdong> will get my key signed by the end of the week
[02:30] <ogra> pitti, switch it to automake ;)
[02:30] <pitti> ogra: I just need to fix this damn libpg-perl since it is FTBFS on the buildds
[02:30] <ogra> gah
[02:30] <pitti> ogra: and perl mods can't/shouldn't use autoff
[02:30] <ogra> no, i know.... i was kidding
[02:33] <ogra> does anybody know if or when the X headers are fixed ? 
[02:35] <Reza_1> Hello, I have some questions about Breezy Bounties. I want to work on http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/SmallBusinessServer, what should I write in my proposal?
[02:41] <Lathiat> synaptic 0.56+revertedto+officialhoary+0.55+cvs20050406-1~5.04ubp1
[02:41] <Lathiat> hmmm. :)
[02:41] <ogra> err ?
[02:42] <Amaranth> Lathiat: That's almost worse than warty's firefox.
[02:42] <ogra>  error: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or directory
[02:42] <Lathiat> Amaranth: :)
[02:42] <Amaranth> ogra: your includes are wrong :P
[02:42] <ogra> Amaranth, my includes are right
[02:43] <ogra> Amaranth, Xlibs.h is where it belongs
[02:43] <ogra> its just broken...
[02:43] <mvo> Lathiat: I'm preparing a new 0.56.2-1 version now 
[02:43] <Amaranth> *boggle*
[02:43] <ogra> seb128, ping, how did you work around that ?
[02:45] <seb128> around what?
[02:45] <jordi> pitti: ping
[02:45] <pitti> jordi: hi
[02:45] <seb128> oh, .h move, yep
[02:46] <jordi> jdthood and I recommend you sync alsa packages that will be uploaded in the next few mins to incoming
[02:46] <seb128> jordi: what's new? :)
[02:46] <crimsun> 1.0.9b for alsa-driver, no?
[02:46] <jordi> a few minor bugfixes for the 1.0.9 stuff.
[02:46] <jordi> noooo
[02:46] <pitti> jordi: cool, thanks
[02:46] <ogra> seb128, yep is not a stifying answer ;)
[02:47] <pitti> jordi: however, it will be autosynced anyway
[02:47] <ogra> satisfying
[02:47] <seb128> oh, "how"
[02:47] <ogra> hehe
[02:47] <seb128> I didn't get this issue
[02:47] <seb128> but I would workaround it time to get xorg fixed
[02:47] <ogra> seb128, i thought you had the same yesterday
[02:47] <seb128> probably by using -L/...
[02:47] <seb128> now, you said you have the same issue
[02:47] <ogra> uhh, an absolute path...
[02:48] <seb128> I just said that XRes.h is not shipped with current version
[02:48] <ogra> oh, ok
[02:48] <ogra> so it was something else... i misunderstood....
[02:48] <jordi> jdthood: crimsun just pointed us at our new PITA: 1.0.9b :)
[02:48] <ogra> jordi, fun :)
[02:49] <Amaranth> seb128: small bug in the latest gnome-menus https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11616
[02:49] <jdthood> Sharp eyes, crimsun.
[02:49] <jordi> ok, it's a fix for the bug we reported :)
[02:49] <jordi> jdthood: should be as easy as removing the patch and changing the tarball
[02:49] <seb128> Amaranth: what an useful bug
[02:50] <jdthood> 1.0.9b: "fix compilation on 2.2/2.4 kernels"
[02:50] <jdthood> yep
[02:50] <seb128> Amaranth: gnome-menu-spec-test? gnome-panel? gmenu-simple-editor?
[02:50] <seb128> Amaranth: where do you get the bug, how, etc
[02:50] <Amaranth> oh, heh
[02:50] <Amaranth> gnome-panel
[02:50] <seb128> Amaranth: so why do you bug on gnome-menus?
[02:51] <Amaranth> because the gnome-menus source package provides the lib that loads gnome-preferences.menu
[02:51] <Amaranth> unless i don't understand how that works, which i probably don't
[02:52] <seb128> Amaranth: gnome-panel opens the .menu
[02:52] <seb128> what happens for you? panel crash?
[02:52] <seb128> you have an empty menu?
[02:52] <Amaranth> no menu
[02:53] <seb128> which one?
[02:53] <Amaranth> i end up having to answer stuff on IRC anyway
[02:53] <Amaranth> um, the preferences one
[02:53] <seb128> bah, let's say it, your bug is useless
[02:53] <seb128> it doesn't describe anything from your issue
[02:53] <Amaranth> no, i sound like a user
[02:54] <stuNNed> hi can i ask what is the current status of http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CalendaringSynchronisation , still waiting on upstream?  I've noticed the bounty isn't claimed yet.
[02:54] <seb128> Amaranth: grep preferences /etc/xdg/menus/gnome-settings.menu ?
[02:54] <seb128> I guess you have modified this conffile
[02:54] <seb128> so it didn't get update
[02:54] <seb128> which creates your "bug"
[02:54] <seb128> no?
[02:54] <Amaranth> no
[02:55] <seb128> what returns the grep?

[02:55] <Amaranth> i haven't modified this file

[02:55] <seb128> ls /etc/xdm/menus ?
[02:55] <seb128> ups
[02:55] <seb128> ls /etc/xdg/menus ?
[02:55] <Amaranth> well, that will have preferences.menu in it, because i made a copy to see if that was the bug
[02:56] <Amaranth> dpkg-new, wtf
[02:56] <seb128> ?
[02:56] <Amaranth> i didn't touch those files
[02:56] <seb128> you changes preferences.menu at some point
[02:56] <seb128> md5sum /etc/xdg/menus/gnome-settings.menu
[02:56] <Amaranth> obviously it isn't going to match yours
[02:56] <seb128> 027cd947acfea2cfd4aa3056577de07c  /etc/xdg/menus/gnome-settings.menu
[02:56] <seb128> so you changed it
[02:56] <Amaranth> i have not touched it
[02:56] <Amaranth> smeg has not touched it (doesn't suppose those yet)
[02:56] <seb128> /etc/xdg/menus/settings.menu
[02:57] <Amaranth> doesn't exist
[02:57] <seb128> yeah, but it used to
[02:57] <seb128> it has been moved to gnome-settings.menu
[02:57] <Kamion> jbailey: did https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10933 get fixed in initrd-tools, by any chance? A breezy initrd seems to be able to handle that situation fine ...
[02:57] <seb128> with preservation of users changes on settings.menu
[02:57] <seb128> you never ever touched settings.menu since you installed your distro?
[02:58] <Amaranth> not that i'm aware of
[02:58] <seb128> weird
[02:58] <seb128> somebody did
[02:58] <Amaranth> *groan*
[02:58] <seb128> anyway, just change it
[02:58] <Amaranth> gmenu-simple-editor?
[02:58] <seb128> I'm closing the bug :)
[02:58] <Amaranth> no, that didn't run as root
[02:58] <jbailey> Kamion: not intentionally by me.  We might have inherited it from Sarge.
[02:59] <Amaranth> unless someone broke into my system through apache and got my password that file hasn't been touched
[02:59] <seb128> diff between the .new and the current one?
[02:59] <seb128> gnome-settings.menu and gnome-settings.menu.dpkg-new?
[02:59] <Amaranth> already got rid of the old one
[03:00] <seb128> k, so forget about it, just edit it to change the filename
[03:00] <Kamion> jbailey: the hoary->breezy diff doesn't look as if it could be responsible, at least ..
[03:00] <Amaranth> would a timestamp change count as an edit?
[03:00] <Amaranth> i know gnome-applications.menu changed that way
[03:01] <ajmitch> Amaranth: it shouldn't
[03:01] <Kamion> hmm, I wonder if it's an LVM1 thing
[03:01] <Kamion> nah
[03:08] <pitti> thom: can I please have the qt-x11-free build-deps in concordia's breezy dchroot?
[03:08] <pitti> thom: and the ones of pike7.6?
[03:09] <pitti> daniels: ping
[03:10] <Kamion> pitti: uh ... if perl 5.8.7's MakeMaker is broken, please report that to bod
[03:10] <Kamion> pitti: he explicitly asked for us to report bugs back to him
[03:10] <pitti> yes, I will do that
[03:10] <Kamion> that's why we're syncing his stuff from experimental
[03:11] <elmo> pitti: please direct install requests to me
[03:12] <pitti> elmo: ok :-) 
[03:14] <elmo> pitti: done
[03:14] <pitti> thanks
[03:21] <danielk> hi
[03:35] <tseng> is it possible to set defaults for casper?
[03:35] <tseng> so that it doesnt ask for locale etc on boot
[03:35] <lu|sleep> tseng: if you want it to just be en_US, use the i18n tips in the liveCD howto
[03:36] <tseng> oh!
[03:36] <tseng> thanks.
[03:37] <lu|sleep> that should work, at any rate :)
[03:37] <tseng> is the keyboard map in the same file
[03:37] <lu|sleep> hrm
[03:37] <lu|sleep> don't know
[03:37] <tseng> or you havent figured it out.
[03:37] <lu|sleep> good question
[03:38] <Kamion> preseed/locale=en_US kbd-chooser/method=us
[03:38] <Kamion> or similar
[03:42] <pitti> infinity: ping
[03:42] <sparkling> hi all
[03:42] <pitti> infinity: are you able to give-back packages? or is that still lamont-ish?
[03:43] <tseng> pitti: he did it for me.
[03:43] <Kamion> infinity has w-b access now, so yes
[03:43] <sparkling> is there a money manager tool like gnucash or kmymoney in unbutu livecd for ppc?
[03:43] <tseng> sparkling: no.
[03:43] <sparkling> is it possible to install in live?
[03:43] <Kamion> you can install packages while running the live CD, yes
[03:44] <sparkling> and is it possible (and simple) insert the program in the iso? or install on a usb pendrive and load the program during boot?
[03:45] <Kamion> if you've got network access you can just use synaptic
[03:45] <Kamion> oh, customise the ISO
[03:45] <Kamion> see the wiki, LiveCDCustomization or similar
[03:45] <tseng> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo
[03:45] <sparkling> ok
[03:46] <sparkling> is also possible the second chance? install it on a usb pendrive and load the program each time at boot?
[03:46] <sparkling> at live cd boot i mean
[03:47] <tseng> LiveCDPersistence
[03:47] <Kamion> you'd have to customise the ISO anyway to get it to do that automatically
[03:47] <infinity> pitti : What do you need?
[03:47] <pitti> infinity: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/p/pike7.4/7.4.117-1ubuntu2/pike7.4_7.4.117-1ubuntu2_20050607-0452-i386-failed.gz looks rather weird
[03:48] <pitti> infinity: some "could not install packages" foo
[03:48] <sparkling> Kamion ok tnx i'll try the wiki
[03:48] <pitti> infinity: dunno whether a g-b helps, though
[03:49] <infinity> pitti : That looks like the sort of thing you should whine to daniels about, not me.
[03:49] <infinity> pitti : (Actually, don't, I'm just trying to irritate him)
[03:50] <infinity> pitti : Probably build-deps with conflicting dependencies, leading to X stuff getting uninstallable.
[03:50] <pitti> infinity: don't worry, I tried to ping him already about the qt-x11-free FTBFS
[03:50] <infinity> (At a guess)
[03:50] <pitti> infinity: ok, I try in a dchroot
[03:50] <infinity> A give-back almost certainly won't fix it.
[03:50] <infinity> (I['ll give 'em back anyway, spinning a build for 3 seconds doesn't hurt)
[03:51] <infinity> Yay, I'm turning into lamont, lazy troubleshooting and all.
[03:51] <infinity> I blame the fast buildds.
[03:51] <pitti> elmo: can I please have the pike7.4 b-deps in concordia's breezy dchroot?
[03:52] <pitti> (bah, and WTH is pike anyway...)
[03:52] <sparkling> tseng what does "as a persistent Copy-On-Write overlay" mean exactly?
[03:52] <tseng> it means what it says really
[03:53] <tseng> its an overlay of the cd filesystem
[03:53] <infinity> pitti : It's a scripting language.
[03:53] <tseng> so if you write a file, it makes a changed copy in the overlay
[03:53] <tseng> and overrides the one on the cd
[03:53] <pitti> infinity: I know, it's just sooo common... :-)
[03:53] <ogra> pitti, morgue it :-D
[03:53] <sparkling> so after that procedure..each time i boot from the live with the usb inserted i can use a program installed on the usb pen?
[03:53] <infinity> pitti : Also the core for roxen and causium.  Which makes it evil by definition.
[03:53] <sparkling> for example
[03:53] <ogra> pitti, who needs pike ;)
[03:53] <infinity> s/causium/caudium/
[03:53] <tseng> sparkling: presumably.
[03:54] <sparkling> ok tnx
[03:54] <pitti> infinity: ah, so we have a language that nobody uses as a dependency for a web server that nobody uses and both is in main???
[03:54] <infinity> pitti : Nope, same build-dep breakage on a retry.
[03:55] <pitti> infinity: ok, thanks
[03:55] <infinity> pitti : caudium is in main?!
[03:55] <infinity> pitti : You must be joking.
[03:55] <pitti> no, it isn't
[03:55] <pitti> however, pike is in main, something must pull it in...
[03:57] <infinity> Build-dep for swig.
[03:58] <infinity> I bet nothing in Debian/Ubuntu actually generates pike extensions with swig.  Maybe I should just turn that language off, and kick pike to universe. :)
[03:58] <pitti> ++ :-)
[03:58] <Treenaks> people use pike? ;)
[03:58] <ajmitch> why does pike appear in universe here?
[03:58] <pitti> infinity: anyway, you're right. both qt and pike looks rather danielish
[03:59] <pitti>    pike7.6 | 7.6.24-1ubuntu2 | http://archive.ubuntu.com breezy/main Packages
[03:59] <pitti>    pike7.6 | 7.6.24-1ubuntu3 | http://archive.ubuntu.com breezy/main Sources
[03:59] <pitti>    pike7.6 | 7.6.9-2ubuntu1 | http://archive.ubuntu.com warty/universe Sources
[03:59] <pitti>    pike7.6 |   7.6.13-1 | http://archive.ubuntu.com hoary/main Sources
[03:59] <ajmitch> ah, pike7.6, not pike
[03:59] <infinity> ajmitch : 7.2 and 7.4 are in universe, 7.6 is in main.
[03:59] <infinity> (Though that situation was different in warty)
[03:59] <pitti> ajmitch: 7.4 is main in warty only
[03:59] <infinity> For the same reason, swig build-dep.
[03:59] <infinity> And that appears to be the only reason.
[03:59] <infinity> There isn't even a binary dep.
[04:00] <elmo> pitti: done
[04:00] <pitti> elmo: thanks
[04:00] <infinity> Someone remind me later to see if any swig-using packages actually generate pike extensions.  I find myself oddly curious now, but also rather tired.
[04:01] <pitti> infinity: hmm, so if elmo is able to install the b-deps of pike7.4 (I am too, locally), why can'T the buildd?
[04:01] <infinity> pitti : Cause the buildds are less bright?  Let me have a look.
[04:01] <elmo> no, probably because the buildds have restricted views
[04:02] <elmo> tho given pike7.4 is in universe, that shouldn't matter
[04:02] <infinity> Right.
[04:02] <pitti> elmo: yeah, I just wanted to fix it again after breaking it with postgresql foo...
[04:02] <infinity> Any better theories, then? :)
[04:02] <pitti> infinity: blame daniels and get to sleep :-)
[04:02] <infinity> (other than "apt-get build-dep finally surpassed sbuild's installation routing a while ago, and we should just use it")
[04:03] <infinity> s/routing/routine/
[04:03] <elmo> haha, right
[04:04] <infinity> Ah, there is it.
[04:05] <infinity> pitti : Replace "xlibmesa-glu-dev | libglu-dev" with "libglu-dev-xorg | libglu-dev"
[04:05] <infinity> At least...
[04:05] <infinity> And curse daniels while you do it.
[04:08] <pitti> infinity: ok, thanks for investigating that
[04:11] <infinity> np/
[04:11] <infinity> Now I see sleep in my near future.
[04:12] <pitti> infinity: sleep well!
[04:14] <robertj> Ouchie. CD installs of Debian 3.1 didn't ship with security repos :(?
[04:14] <bob2> robertj: fixed, new cd images are already up
[04:14] <robertj> bob2: yeah, that was rather bad though
[04:14] <maswan> bob2: are up:ish.
[04:15] <bob2> maswan: still rsyncing or something?
[04:15] <maswan> bob2: still building
[04:15] <JohnDong> can we eventually get the new nvidia modules in Breezy?
[04:15] <maswan> bob2: i386 is done though, so I guess most people are ok
[04:15] <JohnDong> I'm playing with this right now
[04:15] <ogra> JohnDong, we dont have l-r-m yet
[04:15] <ogra> JohnDong, since the new kernel is still in universe
[04:16] <JohnDong> k
[04:16] <fabbione> JohnDong: when the new nvidia drivers come out?
[04:16] <ogra> if it moves, we'll have l-r-m too very soon....
[04:16] <fabbione> last i checked they are the same version as in hoary
[04:16] <JohnDong> fabbione: a few days ago
[04:16] <JohnDong> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=39236
[04:16] <Kamion> robertj: was one of those things that was painful to check in advance, due to the way apt-setup works
[04:16] <JohnDong> I'm already gettin bugged about it
[04:17] <Kamion> robertj: as in, in order to test it properly, you had to hack up your mirror to pretend that sarge was already stable
[04:17] <JohnDong> weren't you guys planning to offer "update packs" for Hoary?
[04:17] <JohnDong> at least that was referenced to in Bugzilla
[04:18] <robertj> Kamion: maybe it should just always point to sarge
[04:18] <JohnDong> and also, do you guys mind if I apply the Firefox frame injection patch to the Backports version
[04:18] <Kamion> robertj: people say that a lot; I don't understand why it's done this way, but I know there was a reason
[04:18] <fabbione> JohnDong: please do not backport the kernel or l-r-m
[04:18] <Kamion> well, s/understand/remember/ maybe
[04:18] <robertj> Kamion: I suspect its because theoretically you should be able to dist-upgrade via crond and never have a problem, in some bizzarre fantasy world
[04:18] <fabbione> JohnDong: it's a bad idea if you don't backport hell of a lot of other stuff
[04:18] <JohnDong> fabiione: I won't... wasn't planning on it
[04:19] <JohnDong> so... the Firefox question?
[04:19] <robertj> Kamion: are they going to alter stable to fix that bad adding a dep on base?
[04:19] <robertj> err by adding
[04:19] <ogra> JohnDong, ?
[04:20] <JohnDong> ogra: can I add https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=296850 to the Backports version, as it is vulnerable
[04:20] <JohnDong> supposedly 1.0.2 (Hoary) is unaffected, so it's just a Backports/Breezy problem
[04:21] <JohnDong> since it's already included in the aviary branch, I assume it's pretty well reviewed
[04:21] <ogra> JohnDong, i cant answer this, talk to pitti or thom about ff/security
[04:22] <JohnDong> k, e-mail time :)
[04:24] <Kamion> robertj: I don't understand your question
[04:24] <pitti> JohnDong: breezy has 1.0.4 and should have all issues fixed...
[04:25] <JohnDong> pitti: no, this is a brand-new thing
[04:25] <JohnDong> pitti: breezy's 1.0.4 is affected
[04:25] <pitti> ah, ok
[04:25] <JohnDong> pitti: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=296850
[04:25] <JohnDong> pitti: I'm interested in the "aviary branch..." patch
[04:25] <pitti> JohnDong: ah, I see, an 1.0.3 regression
[04:25] <JohnDong> yep
[04:26] <pitti> JohnDong: that's a thom issue; but supposedly they will release 1.0.5 soon then?
[04:26] <JohnDong> pitti: maybe. I don't know if they feel it's urgent enough
[04:26] <JohnDong> pitti: but in the meantime....
[04:27] <JohnDong> I'll e-mail thom and cc to you
[04:27] <robertj> Kamion: If you broke the rules and added a package to *ahem* Stable, you could fix the sources.list in a postinst
[04:28] <Kamion> robertj: nah, overcomplicated compared to just rebuilding the CDs, and posting the trivial fix to announcement lists
[04:29] <robertj> Kamion: I think, except for policy dogma, it's worth it because Debian is going to have trouble living this one down
[04:29] <Kamion> building the CDs against a current archive fixes the problem; the problem was just that the CDs were built before release, and the tweaks to make sure they thought they were stable weren't complete
[04:29] <Kamion> robertj: oh, rubbish, it's happened before. :)
[04:29] <robertj> Kamion: really?
[04:29] <Kamion> certainly similar things
[04:30] <Kamion> and no, it's not worth the support issues with that approach
[04:31] <robertj> I guess mirrors might not check for changes on stable anyway...
[04:31] <Kamion> robertj: depending on the type of install you do, you may not have *any* network repositories in sources.list
[04:31] <Kamion> robertj: so that fix is not even possible
[04:31] <Kamion> we did talk about this and go through just about all the alternatives. :)
[04:32] <Kamion> reminds me, though, I have some testing to do ...
[04:37] <dato> is there a known problem in hoary-security with the md5sum of main/binary-i386/Packages.bz2?
[04:44] <dato> nevermind, transparent proxy going astray at $work
[04:55] <Nafallo> zul: got time to sync rt2400 && rt2500 before the next kernel hit the archive? :-)
[04:55] <elmo> hey, why is discover still in base?
[04:56] <elmo> oh, it's not in breezy nm
[04:56] <zul> Nafallo: no...next version
[04:57] <Nafallo> zul: oki. cool.
[05:00] <Kamion> elmo: was there for xserver-xorg.config
[05:08] <elmo> Kamion: ah
[05:08] <Kamion> (now we just install it on-demand)
[05:10] <eruin> are the installer cds functional atm?
[05:10] <Kamion> eruin: no, X is broken
[05:10] <ogra> heh, eruin what a question :)
[05:10] <Kamion> assuming you mean the dailies
[05:10] <eruin> yup
[05:13] <wasabi_> So is there a script to run to recreate /dev? :)
[05:14] <cartman> daniels: ping 
[05:15] <daniels> cartman: pong
[05:15] <jdub> Kamion: for a new ubuntu administrator, would you recommend command line use of aptitude over apt-get?
[05:15] <Kamion> jdub: I don't see why not
[05:15] <cartman> daniels: libxrandr-dev should install Xrandr.h to /usr/include/X11/extensions
[05:15] <cartman> daniels: randr.h is there already
[05:16] <daniels> cartman: it's in /usr/X11R6 still
[05:16] <Kamion> jdub: you certainly don't lose anything, and it has more facilities
[05:16] <daniels> when libxrandr gets split (which it will), it will be in /usr
[05:16] <cartman> daniels: yes and causing Qt not to find it
[05:16] <cartman> daniels: ok
[05:16] <daniels> cartman: qt needs -I/usr/X11R6/include for the time being
[05:16] <Kamion> jdub: and is somewhat more unified (aptitude install/search vs. apt-get install/apt-cache search)
[05:16] <daniels> Kamion: tomorrow (AEST) fo'sho
[05:16] <cartman> daniels: its ok if you are aware. I already workarounded it here
[05:16] <cartman> daniels: thanks for your time
[05:17] <daniels> no worries
[05:17] <ogra> daniels, i have similar issues with Xlibs.h, any ETA when this is fixed ?
[05:17] <daniels> ogra: xlib.h will be in the upload tomorrow, for better or worse
[05:17] <ogra> daniels, thanks :) 
[05:18] <daniels> Kamion: gar
[05:18] <daniels>          AssignedTo|debzilla@ubuntu.com         |daniel.stone@ubuntu.com
[05:18] <daniels>              Status|PENDINGUPLOAD               |UNCONFIRMED
[05:18] <Kamion> daniels: it just did that, I didn't tell it to
[05:19] <Kamion> sorry ...
[05:20] <Nafallo> jdub: and aptitude helps to clean the system when/if you remove stuff :-).
[05:21] <daniels> Kamion: no worries
[05:23] <seb128> daniels: hey. Read my msg about XRes.h? :)
[05:25] <daniels> seb128: hrm
[05:25] <daniels> seb128: it should be in /usr/X11R6/include/X11/extensions
[05:25] <daniels> or maybe /usr/include/X11/extensions
[05:25] <daniels> let me check
[05:25] <seb128> daniels: libxres-dev doesn't ship any .h atm
[05:25] <daniels> seb128: right, it's in /usr/include/X11/extensions now
[05:25] <daniels> seb128: correct, it just depends on x11proto-resource-dev
[05:26] <daniels> seb128: the way to include all X headers is <X11/foo>
[05:26] <daniels> so you need to include <X11/extensions/XRes.h> and have -I/usr/X11R6/include as a fallback
[05:26] <daniels> that covers both cases
[05:26] <seb128> I don't have X11/extensions/XRes.h
[05:26] <seb128> what package should ship that? 
[05:26] <daniels> x11proto-resource-dev
[05:27] <seb128> thanks
[05:27] <seb128> libxres-dev should depends on that :)
[05:28] <daniels> erk, it doesn't?
[05:28] <seb128> hum
[05:28] <seb128> no
[05:28] <seb128> $ apt-cache show libxres-dev | grep Depends
[05:28] <seb128> $
[05:29] <daniels> yeah
[05:29] <daniels> seems a couple of them are missing.  hm.
[05:29] <jdub> seb128: planning to package istanbul (or know of someone who is)?
[05:30] <seb128> jdub: dholbach did yesterday
[05:30] <seb128> it's up for review I guess
[05:30] <jdub> cool
[05:30] <seb128> needs 3 review to be uploaded, feel free to be 1 of them
[05:30] <seb128> s/be/do/
[05:32] <kartman> jdub: istanbul?
[05:32] <ogra> jdub, dholbach
[05:32] <kartman> jdub: are you packing my city? ;)
[05:32] <ogra> jdub, it is on MOTUNewPackages since the weekend
[05:32] <Burgundavia> kartman, we like the blue mosque and figured that we could use it elsehere
[05:32] <kartman> Burgundavia: damn
[05:32] <ogra> jdub, i'm very much after it for edubuntu, so you'll see it soon in universe
[05:33] <Burgundavia> ogra, the doc team is after it too
[05:33] <ogra> hehe
[05:35] <jdub> kartman: live.gnome.org/Istanbul
[05:36] <kartman> jdub: jealus jealus I am...
[05:38] <daniels> woah, go istanbul
[05:39] <lu|sleep> jdub: oh, hey, you might know; is the magic gstreamer streaming java applet open/available anywhere?
[05:39] <Lathiat> lu|sleep: well, fluendo have the java applet that decodes theora, no idea of its openness
[05:41] <lu|sleep> yeah, that's the one I meant
[05:41] <lu|sleep> there was some discussion of using that on gnome.org instead of flash
[05:41] <lu|sleep> for desktopcast
[05:41] <ogra> jdub, the planet css could need some additional love, i cant see any links if they are in the text
[05:41] <ogra> at least not in your text...
[05:42] <Nafallo> lu|sleep: The Fluendo playerless streaming applet is released under the GPL and currently available for download from the Flumotion website.
[05:42] <ogra> jdub, or in \sh's
[05:42] <Nafallo> lu|sleep: from fluendo.com :-)
[05:42] <lu|sleep> this is what I get for asking people instead of google
[05:42] <lu|sleep> ;)
[05:43] <ogra> heh
[05:43] <jdub> lu|sleep: that'd mean running gstreamer process or flumotion though, i believe.
[05:43] <Nafallo> lu|sleep: I didn't even google ;-)
[05:43] <jdub> lu|sleep: i don't think cortado does "play this ogg"
[05:43] <jdub> maybe it does though

[05:44] <lu|sleep> jdub: thomas was pushing it as a more open option, but we didn't have time to discuss the details
[05:44] <jdub> makes sense
[05:45] <lu|sleep> yeah
[05:45] <lu|sleep> I'd definitely prefer that to flash
[05:45] <lu|sleep> assuming it is workable, the load isn't much worse on the servers, etc.
[05:47] <lu|sleep> jdub: hrm, yeah, looks like flumotion is required on the backend
[05:47] <lu|sleep> which is fine
[05:47] <jdub> where "fine" means "as your attorney, i suggest you fire all of your sysadmins"
[05:48] <lu|sleep> haha
[05:48] <lu|sleep> well
[05:48] <lu|sleep> there is that
[05:48] <lu|sleep> :)
[05:48] <dholbach> jdub: you can review it on MOTUNewPackages - it will speed things up ;-)
[05:48] <lu|sleep> I mean 'fine for me' :)
[05:48] <ogra> dholbach, i'm just reviewing it too... get a third one... quick ;)
[05:48] <jdub> dholbach: ok
[05:49] <dholbach> *snigger*
[05:49] <jdub> lu|sleep: http://ubuntu.gplan.info/istanbul/
[05:49] <dholbach> i was bored from my thesis yesterday, saw istanbul on the planet and had the package an hour later :)
[05:50] <lu|sleep> jdub: I built it myself yesterday :)
[05:50] <jdub> lu|sleep: test the packages you hippie!
[05:50] <ogra> jdub, lu|sleep is no MOTU ..... (still not *sigh*)
[05:51] <ogra> lu|sleep, but that would be a good start indeed *g*
[05:51] <jdub> ogra: luis time is better spent on other things. like my massage. over a bit, to the left, up a bit, aaaahhhh.
[05:51] <dholbach> hahahaha :)
[05:52] <ogra> hehe
[05:52] <ogra> loool
[05:53] <jdub> suck!
[05:55] <jdub> dholbach: no source repo bits :)
[05:55] <dholbach> jdub: excusez-moi?
[05:56] <ogra> dholbach, .ex ?
[05:56] <jdub> dholbach: your istanbul dir is just files, can't use it with deb-src :)
[05:57] <ogra> jdub, you download the bits and run  dpkg-source -x istanbul_0.1.0-0ubuntu1.dsc ;)
[05:57] <dholbach> those files include  .dsc .diff.gz and .orig.tar.gz
[05:57] <jdub> guys
[05:58] <dholbach> ogra: oh yes...
[05:58] <ogra> jdub, we dont expect form a MOTU to be able to set up repo servers ;)
[05:58] <jdub> using source repositories means i don't have to copy and paste all those file names to wget
[05:58] <Kamion> dholbach: you need a Sources.gz file for apt-get source
[05:58] <jdub> ogra: it's really easy
[05:58] <ogra> jdub, i know, i run my own repos
[05:58] <dholbach> deb-src sucks
[05:58] <dholbach> it really does :)
[05:58] <Kamion> dholbach: apt-ftparchive sources . | gzip -c > Sources.gz
[05:58] <dholbach> i want to see what i pick :)
[05:59] <jdub> so if you have one dir with those in it, i can just apt-get source your stuff whenever you want me to review it
[05:59] <dholbach> i had a source repo set up, but didnt like it
[05:59] <jdub> which makes life easier, and reviews faster :)
[05:59] <Kamion> eh? you only ever get sources by hand
[05:59] <dholbach> i have to review packages from 42697426 repositories :)
[06:00] <dholbach> it makes no difference in the end
[06:00] <ogra> Kamion, yes, and he is twice as fast as we all are if he needs.... he will blow up if you give him deb-src repos ;)
[06:01] <Kamion> ogra: it wasn't giving *him* Sources files that I was talking about. :)
[06:01] <jdub> dholbach: for regular MOTUs (like yourself), it will
[06:02] <jdub> if Packages/Sources could include http: lines, we could do aggregations
[06:02] <jdub> oh
[06:02] <jdub> oh
[06:02] <jdub> holy shit
[06:02] <jdub> mvo: dude?
[06:03] <mvo> jdub: ?
[06:03] <Nafallo> lol
[06:03] <ogra> *g*
[06:08] <ogra> dholbach, ergh... gstreamer0.8-plugins is not installable....
[06:09] <dholbach> that's funny
[06:09] <dholbach> at my place it is
[06:09] <ogra> hmm...
[06:09] <ogra> strange
[06:10] <ogra> do you use the german mirror ?
[06:13] <JohnDong> greetings, world :)
[06:14] <ogra> dholbach, erhg, why does it install in multimedia ? 
[06:14] <JohnDong> Openoffice.org2 in Breezy is kind of old... are there any plans to update it? (I know, it's monstrous)
[06:14] <ogra> jdub, is that the right place ? i would expect it in tools
[06:15] <ogra> oohhh, i lost my control-center completely
[06:17] <ogra> seb128, ?? ^^^
[06:17] <seb128> due to the menus rename
[06:17] <dholbach> ogra: fixed the manpage
[06:17] <mdz> Kamion: I ended up writing an askpass program to pass the passphrase on an fd
[06:17] <seb128> nobody uses that anyway, it'll be fixed with next upload
[06:18] <ogra> dholbach, great... i think you missedmy last question.... shouldnt that be in the tools menu ? or is it a playback tool too ?
[06:18] <ogra> seb128, i use it :)
[06:18] <dholbach> ogra: i didnt write that desktop entry, but it's ok in audio&video i think
[06:18] <ogra> seb128, gnome-powermanager puts its icon in there.... 
[06:18] <seb128> that'll be fixed
[06:19] <seb128> but that's low priority
[06:19] <seb128> there is no menu entry for this panel
[06:19] <seb128> and I doubt many people run it from the command line
[06:19] <Kamion> mdz: sounds like a sane approach
[06:19] <ogra> seb128, i'm just to lazy to start it from alt-f2, dont worry....
[06:19] <mdz> Kamion: oh, you were responding to the backgrounding thing
[06:19] <mdz> that's still an issue
[06:20] <pitti> Morning mdz
[06:20] <mdz> I can only think of awful hacks to do that
[06:20] <mdz> pitti: morning
[06:21] <mvo> morning mdz
[06:21] <ogra> dholbach, i think its a tool, not a multimedia app.... as i think CD recording apps dont belong there since they are backup tools too...
[06:22] <ogra> dholbach, but i might be wrong :)
[06:22] <dholbach> :)
[06:23] <ogra> as i'm not a HIG guru.....it just feels wrong :)
[06:26] <ogra> heh, recording and running it fullscreen afterwards is funny....
[06:27] <ogra> dholbach, if the manpage is fixed its a go from my side....
[06:27] <dholbach> a bit bumpy, but funny
[06:27] <dholbach> well, the binary has no command line options, so it was easy to write :)
[06:27] <ogra> heh
[06:27] <dholbach> ogra: wouly you make a note on MOTUNewPackages?
[06:27] <ogra> yup
[06:27] <dholbach> excellent
[06:28] <ogra> btw, Desktop as the default save location would be cooler i think...
[06:28] <ogra> like the screenshot tool does
[06:29] <dholbach> i have my home as "desktop", so i'm happy :)
[06:29] <ogra> but thats not the default (yet) ;)
[06:29] <dholbach> unfortunately not
[06:35] <fabbione> hey mdz
[06:52] <dholbach> ogra: could you file those items as bugreports? upstream? :))
[06:52] <dholbach> jdub: did you try it already?
[06:53] <mdke> where's the package dholbach?
[06:53] <dholbach> mdke: ubuntu.gplan.info/istanbul
[06:53] <dholbach> but it's a source package
[06:53] <mdke> genius
[06:54] <mdke> right
[06:54] <dholbach> i would have packaged istanbul whatever it was... istanbul rocks :)
[06:54] <mdke> Burgundavia was saying maybe we could use it for documentation
[06:55] <mdke> would be awesome for tutorials
[06:55] <dholbach> yeah
[06:55] <dholbach> that sounds good
[07:10] <jdub> mdke: istanbul + annodex :)
[07:10] <jdub> (annodex.net)
[07:15] <Nafallo> daniels: ping
[07:15] <JohnDong> ugh... I spend an hour compiling Firefox.. just to figure out that I forgot the security patch. I'm gonna start crying.... :(
[07:16] <rob_afk> is there a web backend speced out for hwdb?
[07:16] <mdz> fabbione: what are the factors affecting the 2.6.12 release?  is losing bitkeeper causing a lot of problems?
[07:16] <Nafallo> fabbione: ping
[07:17] <ogra> robertj, not yet, but it will be a postgres DB 
[07:17] <fabbione> mdz: 2.6.12 should be out next week. the major issue was some internal stuff apparently, that got solved pretty quickly
[07:18] <fabbione> mdz: 12rc6 was out today and it's already in the archive. we have 2 successfull ppc64 tests and i plan to kill power3/power4 soon
[07:18] <fabbione> Nafallo: pong
[07:18] <mdz> wasabi,doko: libxerces2-java build-depends on libxml-commons-resolver1.1-java which build-depends on libxerces-java (the old one).  that can't possibly be correct, can it?
[07:18] <fabbione> mdz: there is some stuff (packaging related) that needs real cleaning.
[07:19] <Kamion> smurfix: fancy putting keymapper in Debian? it'd reduce the amount of dependency-chasing in my life ...
[07:19] <Nafallo> fabbione: is there any specific patchorder in xfree86/debian/patches I should use for patching CAN-2005-0605? :-)
[07:19] <fabbione> Nafallo: yes. look at debian/README*
[07:20] <smurfix> Kamion: sure, will do
[07:20] <Nafallo> fabbione: k, thanx
[07:20] <fabbione> it explain how patches should be numbered and why
[07:20] <Kamion> smurfix: great, thanks
[07:22] <robertj> ogra: is any help needed with that? I've done lots of stuff with php and MySQL, but I think I could probably survive a move over to pgsql
[07:22] <ogra> robertj, it will most likely be python or even zope.... but once i have speced everything out, i could need helping hands indeed
[07:24] <robertj> ogra: I'm pretty much a one-trick poney these days :(
[07:24] <ogra> you mean youre bound to php ?
[07:24] <robertj> Yeah, I'm sure it wouldn't be a horrible experience breaking out
[07:24] <ogra> python is cool.... especially for cgi and web development :)
[07:25] <robertj> is Formal Test Plans speccing out the db or are you?
[07:25] <robertj> (are you FTP ?)
[07:28] <Burgundavia> jdub, as soon as that fridge is live I have content for it
[07:31] <dholbach> have a nice evening
[07:31] <dholbach> ah... btw: some of you STILL didnt sign my key (since UDU)!
[07:32] <dholbach> *wave*
[07:32] <robertj> ogra: is the web frontend part of formal test plans or is it on its own?
[07:33] <ogra> robertj, formal test plans is something completely different....
[07:35] <ogra> robertj, the hwdb is specced out in the HardwareDatabaseRoadmap
[07:36] <robertj> Oh, I had hoped that you would be able to use hwdb to pull a list of all software that was formally tested
[07:37] <ogra> later perhaps... currently its a _hardware_ database :)
[07:37] <robertj> ogra: so really, the interface hardly matters
[07:38] <ogra> robertj, see the roadmap.... there are some milestones
[07:38] <robertj> I'd imagine the first months would be consolidating existing databases
[07:38] <robertj> will do, let me finish up reading HardwareDatabase
[07:39] <ogra> the first thing is to make the flatfile thing more sane... then: to have a script that can present the xml for debugging purposes and after this we can care about a SQL ER diagram and DB design....
[07:40] <robertj> Count me out on the XML portion ;)
[07:40] <ogra> and in the last step we'll have a searchable web interface... but thats really not the biggest amount of work...
[07:40] <ogra> since the DB should do the work here
[07:41] <robertj> Frequency might be interesting as well
[07:41] <ogra> Frequency ?
[07:41] <robertj> "11.4% of our users have X integrated video, and it doesn't do A B and C properly"
[07:41] <ogra> yep, thats the target....
[07:41] <mdz> Kamion: you're going to be on TV? ;-)
[07:42] <ogra> mdz, where, when ?
[07:42] <mdz> ogra: * Kamion -> TV
[07:43] <ogra> hehe
[07:43] <ogra> ok, i'm slow today
[07:44] <robertj> ogra: okay, done reading HwDb, no Roadmap page on the wiki, where should I look?
[07:44] <ogra> robertj, http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareDatabaseRoadmap
[07:45] <robertj> doh, forgot to check udu
[07:45] <ogra> heh.... i even forgot there was a hwdb page on the ubuntu wiki.... 
[07:46] <robertj> ogra: its kinda big brotherish, but if you checked back periodically with the hwdb, and the hwdb saw a large % of users of a certian type of hardware dissapear...
[07:47] <chmj> what are the chances that sarge's 2.4 kernel will work with ubuntu 
[07:47] <ogra> robertj, as long as you cant map the userdata to the hwdb data i see nothing bigbrotherish there
[07:47] <ogra> chmj, small ?
[07:47] <chmj> ok 
[07:47] <ogra> up to sery-small i guess...
[07:47] <ogra> very even
[07:48] <ogra> but it depends what you expect....
[07:48] <robertj> ogra: I guess you right, no need to track to a particular machine
[07:48] <chmj> now, compiling a 2.4 kernel will do me any justice ?
[07:49] <ogra> i guess it will boot, but with a big lack of functionallity....no idea how much essential stuff will be included there...
[07:49] <ogra> (in the lacking functionallity)
[07:49] <ogra> robertj, we even cant do that....
[07:50] <doko> mdz: yes, will look, if wasabi doesn't beat me. need an ooo2 build as well, but ant looks broken
[07:51] <ogra> robertj, it would be possible if you have some additionalk databases to link with..... i.e. manufacturers + sellers (in the hope they store customer data) + hwdb a hell lot of money to pay the programmers to make this work together....
[07:51] <mdz> doko: ant is working for me with other packages
[07:51] <robertj> ogra: so where do the " More than 20,000 datasets in < 30 days (currently 755 submissions a day on average)" currenty reside?
[07:51] <ogra> hwdb.ubuntu.com
[07:53] <ogra> robertj, the average dropped a bit to 5-600 a day.... but its still plenty :)
[07:53] <tseng> i post 10 times a day
[07:53] <tseng> 20 on weekends.
[07:54] <ogra> tseng, ah, now i know why my bandwith bill is this high :)
[07:55] <robertj> ogra: what machine is that thing on?
[07:55] <robertj> its kinda ... not so speedy
[07:55] <ogra> the current DB ?
[07:55] <robertj> whatever it is
[07:55] <ogra> its a PII 233.... 128MB.... soon to move....
[07:55] <robertj> yeah, I can see where the slowness would be from
[07:55] <ogra> robertj, nope
[07:56] <ogra> robertj, if i run flatfile its really speedy.... 
[07:56] <ogra> robertj, but to have some diskspae left i had to bzip2 all files....
[07:57] <robertj> how big is the dataset?
[07:57] <ogra> robertj, so there are running tons of bunzips for every small action to grep through the files... thats what causes the slowness
[07:57] <Lathiat> ogra: oh nice
[07:57] <Lathiat> ogra: why do we stillnot have some new hardware for this?:)
[07:57] <ogra> and if i'm at 65000 files i'm fucked.... so something will happen very soon....
[07:57] <robertj> bwahaha
[07:58] <ogra> Lathiat, its not a hardware issue
[07:58] <Lathiat> ogra: disks are hardware :)
[07:58] <robertj> is 65k the limit of files that can be in a single directory?
[07:58] <ogra> Lathiat, its there
[07:58] <mdz> Kamion: hmm, after a recent (debconf?) upgrade of my ltsp client, dpkg-reconfigure -fnoninteractive now asks questions with whiptail
[07:58] <ogra> Lathiat, but i'm not there yet ;)
[07:59] <Lathiat> ogra: ah right
[07:59] <Lathiat> ogra: where is there?
[07:59] <ogra> robertj, yep
[07:59] <ogra> Lathiat, DC
[07:59] <mdz> this will also break the live CD
[07:59] <robertj> ogra: so what is the XML view of the data going to be used for
[08:00] <ogra> robertj, just display the whole set with a dtd and css on top 
[08:01] <robertj> seems like that should come after the sql database instead of before  then
[08:01] <ogra> robertj, i'm planning to have something like the device manager online... so you actually can look up data with the id...
[08:01] <ogra> robertj, we need access to the data for certain tasks, so it has to come first
[08:01] <ogra> s/certain tasks/certain tasks bound to the release cycle/
[08:02] <ogra> (bugtracking, laptop testing etc)
[08:02] <robertj> ogra: it just seems like it would almost be just as easy to put it right into a db proper and then spit the xml back out
[08:03] <ogra> the DB itself does not depend on this cycle.... so this can be postponed rather then full access to the data
[08:03] <\sh> re
[08:04] <robertj> ogra: whats the disk-size of the set uncompressed?
[08:05] <ogra> robertj, i stopped measuring at 3GIG
[08:05] <ogra> that was around 25000 sets....
[08:05] <robertj> what about compressed?
[08:06] <ogra> 1GIG
[08:06] <ogra> (now)
[08:06] <robertj> do you give out copies ;)
[08:06] <ogra> robertj, heh
[08:07] <ogra> robertj, i'm fearing the first mail of a marketing company regarding this data.....
[08:08] <robertj> What could they really do with it
[08:08] <robertj> I guess they could figure out where Ubuntu was used
[08:10] <ogra> robertj, which hw is mixed with which.... what are the users complaining about HW wise etc.... you can read a lot out of this data.... 
[08:11] <robertj> yeah, but other than "Your using Linux, were not accepting your warranty," I don't see what harm it could do
[08:12] <robertj> which would be illegal here anyway
[08:12] <ogra> i have reports from 43000 users....
[08:12] <Kamion> mdz: TV> no ;-)
[08:12] <Nafallo> ogra: two or three are from me ;-)
[08:12] <ogra> alone a percentage report of the used HW would be very valuable
[08:12] <Kamion> mdz: a DEBCONF_DEBUG=developer log would be useful
[08:12] <robertj> ogra: oh, it's certainly useful
[08:12] <mdz> Kamion: I just uploaded a patch to breezy
[08:13] <mdz> Kamion: and sent it to joeyh
[08:13] <robertj> But is it bad to give companys useful information? Would Canonical want to sell it?
[08:13] <ogra> robertj, thats not what i mean.... 
[08:13] <mdz> even though he's being a wanker lately
[08:13] <Kamion> *shrug* a number of his points are valid I think
[08:14] <mdz> I've personally sent him gobs of code in the past
[08:14] <ogra> robertj, i dont want to see it in the wrong hands.... marketing companys may be even more creative with this data thenm we both can imagine ;)
[08:14] <Kamion> hmm, I didn't think that code had changed lately
[08:14] <robertj> ogra: perhaps you could deliver it to me via a droid?
[08:14] <mdz> I understand his gripe about linking to the patches from the BTS, but there's nothing I can do about it, and it's an awfully minor thing
[08:15] <Kamion> I do think we need to change that now that Ubuntu is well-known
[08:15] <mdz> apart from that, I think his arguments are more emotional than rational
[08:15] <Kamion> it was originally to get our name known, and I think we're pretty safe on that front now
[08:15] <mdz> which holds for most of the extreme views in that thread
[08:15] <robertj> ogra: I can see how HP might be unhappy if saled underperformed and the whole world could see...
[08:16] <Kamion> well, I'm glad he said what he did about base-config
[08:16] <Kamion> since it's pushed me into a re-merging effort
[08:16] <ogra> robertj, thats what i mean... i dont want it to be abused in such a way...
[08:16] <robertj> so frequency data has to be kept private?
[08:16] <Mithrandir> we've sucked at giving patches back and I think we should concentrate more on that, but the debate so far hasn't exactly been constructive.
[08:17] <mdz> I'm not entirely glad about that, since you have enough to do already without spending a lot of time on code which already works
[08:17] <Kamion> base-config merges take me entire days
[08:17] <mdz> (even if it is sort of an overgrown mess)
[08:17] <Kamion> really
[08:17] <mdz> I'd rather days in the future than days now
[08:17] <ogra> robertj, nope.... but be treated very sensible
[08:18] <Mithrandir> mdz: at some point it'll be weeks, not days.
[08:18] <Kamion> they're also soul-crushing
[08:18] <Kamion> I like having a soul
[08:18] <mdz> Mithrandir: if base-config undergoes major change, then we'll do the work at that time to make it easier
[08:18] <mdz> it's fine to be reactive with this
[08:19] <Kamion> hmm, bubulle deleted that code in r1700 (1.4.43) for some reason
[08:19] <Kamion> the changelog entry does not match it
[08:19] <mdz> Kamion: which, the debconf stuff?
[08:19] <Kamion> yes
[08:19] <mdz> yeah, I didn't see anything in the changelog about it
[08:20] <mdz> oh, it used to look exactly like I changed it to look
[08:20] <mdz> I wrote that without looking at the old version; I thought the fallback was new :-)
[08:21] <robertj> ogra: hrmm, could you zip up a hundred reports maybe and send em my way?
[08:21] <mdz> Mithrandir: we haven't sucked.
[08:22] <ogra> robertj, could you produce them yourself by runnin the hwdb client without network access ?
[08:22] <robertj> ogra: I could I suppose, but they would be similar ;)
[08:22] <ogra> it drops the dataset on your desktop
[08:22] <ogra> the structure is always the same...
[08:23] <Mithrandir> mdz: I disagree; we've a lot of changes which haven't been pushed back well enough.  We have a bunch of ubuntu-specific packages which should really have been rolled into debian, we're far from up-to-date on merging stuff.
[08:24] <elmo> Mithrandir: dude, be fair, do we suck compared to everyone else?
[08:25] <elmo> if not, then the correct terminology is "we could do better"
[08:25] <elmo> since AFAICS, we are like a bazillion times better than anyone else has even tried to be
[08:25] <Mithrandir> elmo: ok, we could do better.  We could be as good as the goals we've set for ourselves.
[08:25] <Mithrandir> and I think we're a fair distance from what we'd end up at.
[08:25] <ogra> haha http://www.daskeyboard.com/
[08:25] <jdub> elmo: has that point been made well on the lists?
[08:25] <mdz> Mithrandir: we have never set a goal of having every patch in the BTS, or having a minimal delta relative to Debian at any given time
[08:26] <Mithrandir> mdz: we've been going around saying "we give back" and I think we're far from good enough at that.
[08:26] <mdz> our goal is to contribute back, and we have been and are doing that.  of course everyone would like to do more, but this is a zero-sum game and our resources are limited.
[08:26] <Kamion> I do think http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/relationship implies a bit more than that
[08:27] <Kamion> and I'm not saying we necessarily have to do more, but perhaps that we should be claiming less
[08:27] <mdz> yes, that document doe scontain some inaccuracies
[08:27] <elmo> jdub: I don't know, the  threads make me cry, and I'm certainly not going to get involved
[08:27] <elmo> (hello oil, meet fire)
[08:27] <jdub> heh
[08:27] <Nafallo> hehe
[08:27] <mdz> that would have been a good thing to raise at the CC meeting yesterday
[08:28] <mdz> jdub: yes, it has been made, several times, by me.
[08:28] <Kamion> I wasn't available unfortunately
[08:28] <tseng> its on the agenda for the next motu meeting
[08:28] <ogra> yep
[08:28] <tseng> since we hold the majority of packages
[08:29] <mdz> tseng: what is?  I'm talking about the document on the website
[08:29] <ogra> mdz, colaboration
[08:29] <mdz> that, too, is a much broader issue than MOTU
[08:29] <mdz> that's a decision to be taken by Ubuntu as a whole
[08:31] <tseng> mdz: the initial issue I started posing was what to do with NEW motu packages not in Debian
[08:31] <mdz> Mithrandir: if you feel that more work should be done, why don't you spend your own time doing the work?  the problem with this whole attitude is that everyone expects someone else to pay for it.
[08:31] <tseng> but yes, the issue in general affects everyone.
[08:31] <elmo> yay, syncs work better when the mirror your sync from isn't 2 days out of date
[08:31] <jdthood> I don't agree with the complainers.  Ubuntu patches are freely available.  Any Debian maintainer who cares can backport the relevant portions of those patches; then the patches will be smaller when ubuntu does the next sync.
[08:32] <Mithrandir> mdz: I try to make all my packages have the exact same source in ubuntu and Debian, even when doing stuff such as the python transition.  I, like everybody else, have a limited amount of time available, but I try to do my part at least.
[08:32] <mdz> everyone is doing a part, and the response is "fuck you, not enough"
[08:32] <dilinger> Mithrandir: i wouldn't mind seeing a team with debian dedicated to pulling back changes from the various derived distributions
[08:33] <dilinger> s/with/within/
[08:33] <Mithrandir> dilinger: hmm, that's an interesting thought.
[08:33] <tseng> dilinger: indeed
[08:33] <Mithrandir> mdz: the whole is bigger than the sum of all the parts.
[08:33] <tseng> dilinger: we've got a few dds in motu wondering how they can help out
[08:33] <Mithrandir> but, I gotta go, shower and then pub.
[08:33] <tseng> maybe that could be something to pose to them.
[08:34] <Kamion> anyway, speaking of non-work time, I need to go shopping
[08:34] <Mithrandir> tseng: can you take that forward with them?  I think it's an excellent idea.
[08:34] <Nafallo> Mithrandir: have fun! :-)
[08:35] <tseng> Mithrandir: sure ill push people that way if they keep popping up
[08:35] <dilinger> tseng: when's the next motu meeting?  i'd like to sit in on that discussion
[08:35] <tseng> its not that often but they do show up at times
[08:35] <tseng> dilinger: second.
[08:36] <tseng> we've talked about it impromptu on irc a few times and your idea is the best thats come up so far
[08:36] <tseng> also elmo gave us a "canonical" list of merges
[08:36] <tseng> 206 conflicts atm
[08:37] <jdthood> What would such a "pulling back" team do?  Take patches from ubuntu's site, edit them down and mail them to the Debian BTS?
[08:37] <tseng> which is resolvable at this point
[08:37] <tseng> jdthood: maybe work one-on-one with the maintainer?
[08:37] <tseng> is how I do it for my own stuff
[08:38] <tseng> dilinger: "Our next MOTU Meeting is scheduled for Monday, 20 June, 2200 UTC."
[08:38] <ogra> dilinger, 20th
[08:38] <tseng> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting/view?searchterm=motu%20meeting
[08:39] <robertj> ooh xconfinfo is pretty interesting
[08:39] <snow> hello - one question guys. i try to inst 5.10 but the f. machine (intel) says its not able to mount a filesys ext2 (or ext3) on /dev/ide/host0/bus0/target0/lun0/disc1 - i have tried lots of things
[08:40] <ogra> robertj, but bad bad xml :)
[08:40] <tseng> Kamion: do you know if that amd64/libxss issue from beagle was resolved?
[08:41] <robertj> ogra: looks well formed to me
[08:41] <snow> and "stat of the device /dev/ide/host0/bus0/target0/lun0/disc1 failed
[08:41] <snow> please help
[08:42] <ogra> robertj, but wrapping the data linewise is silly.... 
[08:42] <ogra> robertj, the next client should do better
[08:42] <chol> snow, 5.10 is in development, try 5.04 and see if it works better for u
[08:42] <ogra> (wrapping == wrapping in xml)
[08:42] <robertj> ogra: I don't see what you mean
[08:43] <robertj> do you mean xloginfo?
[08:43] <ogra> robertj, err, yes...
[08:43] <robertj> oh yes, that sucks, but xconfinfo looks neat
[08:43] <ogra> robertj, that should be a big chunk of CDATA
[08:44] <snow> chol, 5.04 works fine - i tried to play arond a little bit on 5.10 - just bug reporting and so on
[08:44] <snow> and it says, the device apparently does not exist - bullshit!
[08:47] <chol> snow, but you've confirmed that the device file is there, fdisk reports that partition and if you make another fs on that partition, does that work?
[08:48] <dilinger> jdthood: i was thinking more in terms of a larger context; not only pulling in patches from ubuntu, but others as well.  the easy tasks would be pulling in bugfixes and such; however, they could also determine desired features/reworkings that would be beneficial for debian to pull in, and work w/ the derived distribution maintainers and debian maintainers to get it complete
[08:48] <dilinger> tseng: thanks
[08:48] <dilinger> jbailey: the initramfs stuff you've been working on, have you managed to get netboot/pxeboot working w/ it?
[08:49] <jbailey> dilinger: I'm not setup to test that config.  What's special about it?
[08:50] <snow> chol, fdisk reports the disk - what means another fs?
[08:50] <chol> snow, another file system
[08:50] <dilinger> jbailey: just curious.  i'm not sure how pxeboot and friends handle initrds (if they do at all); however, if the equivalent initramfs image could simply be appended to the kernel image..
[08:51] <dilinger> jbailey: a coworker and i were just discussing ways around system disk failures; with netbooting that sort of thing, we wouldn't have to rely on system disks at all (we already use openafs for important data and home directories)
[08:52] <Lathiat> pxeboot with syslinux does initrd
[08:52] <Lathiat> pxelinux/syslinux, whatever it is
[08:52] <jbailey> dilinger: I wonder if you can pxeboot a usable grub2?
[08:52] <dilinger> Lathiat: ah.  what about other architectures?
[08:52] <Lathiat> dilinger: nfi
[08:52] <jbailey> dilinger: That will eventually include bits that you need for loading things off of nfs and http, apparently.
[08:56] <snow> chol, creating ne fs worked fine
[08:56] <chol> snow, thats nice
[08:56] <chol> snow, i think both you and I are looking for a channel somewhere between user and developer :)
[08:57] <snow> shit
[09:06] <\sh> pitti: ping
[09:10] <Nafallo> \sh: no pitti here ;-)
[09:12] <\sh> seems so...anyone knows about postgresql-*?
[09:13] <ska-fan> \sh: what do you need to know?
[09:16] <\sh> ska-fan: postgresql-dev right now is a showstopper...:( 
[09:18] <ska-fan> I'm not sure if I can help you. I know stuff about postgresql, and nothing about debian packaging.
[09:19] <\sh> ska-fan: nono.it has to do with packages :)
[09:22] <ogra> \sh, why dont you just ask ? 
[09:22] <ogra> probably someone knows...
[09:22] <mpt> hi ogra
[09:23] <ogra> hey mpt...
[09:23] <mpt> ogra, I assume you've seen the thread in ubuntu-devel about laptop testing and possible integration with the hwdb client?
[09:23] <ogra> mpt, i didnt plan to have the word user on the button....so dont worry, its just a mockup....
[09:23] <ogra> mpt, yeps
[09:24] <mpt> good good :-) ... just checking
[09:24] <mpt> hmmm
[09:24] <ogra> it will take time to implement.... jwz (the original coder) doesnt like the logo to be changed... so its hard to implement....
[09:24] <mpt> heh
[09:24] <ska-fan> Hmm, can such things like when you have this mother board and this soundcard, you need to turn off acpi be incorporated?
[09:24] <mpt> Obfuscated?
[09:25] <ogra> he implemented the pixmap headerfile....
[09:25] <\sh> ogra: as I said: showstopper...dep problems
[09:25] <ogra> s/implemented/reimplemented
[09:25] <\sh> libpqxx
[09:25] <ogra> \sh, ah
[09:25] <mpt> ogra: You mean something like #define LOGO "ridiculouslylongbinarydata"?
[09:26] <ogra> heh, if it would be this easy... nope... 
[09:26] <ogra> the complete xpm library....
[09:26] <ogra> i.e. the functions
[09:27] <ogra> and he is right to do that security wise... but renaming every bit is not nice :)
[09:28] <ogra> mpt, what says the usability expert to this nice device *g* ? http://www.daskeyboard.com/
[09:28] <Treenaks> ogra: let the Ubuntu "persuasion" team pay him a visit ;)
[09:28] <mpt> that's the blank one, isn't it
[09:28] <ogra> yep
[09:30] <mpt> ogra: Slashdot tells me what to think, therefore it's an overpriced copy of one I could get elsewhere, and not a good idea anyway if you plan to be typing any "~" or "\" characters :-)
[09:31] <tseng> ogra: thats cool
[09:31] <ogra> Treenaks, lets see... as i see it someone once should fork this code, someone who is open to secure changes that can integrate with desktop environments safely...
[09:31] <Burgundavia> mpt, ogra I can do the same by scrapping the letter off my keyboard
[09:31] <mpt> ogra: What happened to gnome-screensaver?
[09:32] <ogra> Burgundavia, have the keys on your keyboard different springs...
[09:32] <ska-fan> \sh: so pg-dev depends on libpqxx which doesn't build?
[09:32] <Burgundavia> ogra, oh, that
[09:32] <ogra> mpt, its insecure ... you cant implement it this way
[09:32] <\sh> ska-fan: no..libpqxx depends on postgresql-dev :)
[09:32] <ogra> Burgundavia, i think thats the intresting part ...
[09:32] <Burgundavia> ogra, yes, but not worth the cost
[09:33] <ogra> mpt, but if i find the time, i'll implement the settings in gconf keys.... its not more insecure then using a hidden file in your home....
[09:33] <ogra> and integrates with the desktop
[09:35] <ogra> but accessibility issues will remain in this interface for a long time.... there is no safe way to solve them
[09:36] <tseng> ogra: are you getting one?
[09:36] <mpt> ogra: I find the xscreensaver preferences quite confusing, too, though that's probably just a labelling problem
[09:37] <ogra> mpt, i'd love to rip them apart ... especially since tey have redundant settings with gnome-power now....
[09:37] <\sh> ogra: thx for the warped fix upload :)
[09:37] <ogra> the power powermanagement should happen completely in the powermanager ....
[09:37] <ogra> \sh, it was a one liner....
[09:38] <mpt> ogra: breezy? or breezy+1? :-)
[09:38] <ogra> heh... too much power in the above sentence
[09:38] <ogra> mpt, breezy
[09:38] <mpt> MORE POWER
[09:39] <ogra> mpt, gnome-power will be our frontend to all the powermanagement stuff, xscreensaver has a own powermanagement, i'd like to integrate it where it belongs, so the screensaver preferences will have a big gap and should get a bit of redesign
[09:40] <Nafallo> ogra: sounds very sane indeed :-).
[09:40] <ogra> Nafallo, yes, but a good bunch of extra work....
[09:41] <ogra> but given that the screensave is the worst integrated thing we have, probably worth the time....
[09:42] <Nafallo> :-)
[09:42] <mpt> ogra: Unfortunately, it *does* make sense for the screensaver choice to be next to the screensaver delay, and for the screensaver delay to be next to the screen blanking delay, and for the screen blanking delay to be next to the standby/suspend/whatever delay, and for the standby/suspend/whatever delay to be next to the other power settings
[09:42] <ogra> mpt, you mean a xscreensaverandpowermanagementinterface *g* ?
[09:42] <mpt> :-/
[09:43] <Nafallo> hehe
[09:43] <mpt> They're a continuum -- it makes little sense for screensaver choice to be in the same panel as battery status display, but each of those steps makes sense
[09:43] <ogra> yep
[09:43] <mpt> OSes I've seen differ in where they draw the line, but it ends up being quite awkward
[09:43] <mpt> I think Windows and OS X both have a button to take you from one to the other
[09:45] <mpt> So, it'll be a fun design challenge :-)
[09:45] <ogra> mpt, www.grawert.net/pm1.png 
[09:45] <ogra> mpt, www.grawert.net/pm2.png 
[09:45] <ogra> thats gnome-power
[09:45] <tseng> thats alot of widgets
[09:46] <ogra> yeps
[09:46] <Nafallo> ogra: does the settings do anything yet? :-)
[09:46] <ogra> the first one looks ok to me... but i still have no idea about the second one
[09:46] <ogra> Nafallo, nope
[09:47] <ogra> Nafallo, they need integration with pmi
[09:47] <mpt> ogra: For the second one you can make it simpler by making arbitrary decisions and sending people to gconf if they want to twiddle
[09:47] <Nafallo> ogra: and the panel I guess :-)
[09:47] <Burgundavia> I think that "critically low battery icon" has no use case for not having it displayed
[09:47] <mpt> ogra: e.g. battery is critical when below 5 minutes
[09:47] <ogra> Nafallo, thats pmi :)
[09:48] <Nafallo> ogra: hehe, oki.
[09:48] <Burgundavia> and users don't need to set the critical limit
[09:48] <Burgundavia> some sane default should be chosen for that
[09:48] <mpt> Burgundavia: read up :-)
[09:48] <ogra> mpt, or how many percent ? i like to adjust it to 1% .... to be able to work as long as possible
[09:48] <ogra> Burgundavia, its cool for keyboardy and mice
[09:48] <mpt> ogra: Percent means nothing, because power usage varies. Minutes are the useful unit.
[09:49] <ogra> keyboards even
[09:49] <ogra> mpt, all laptops i have dont report minutes
[09:49] <Burgundavia> ogra, the UI is not clear that it affects keyboards and mice, and there is still no use case
[09:49] <ogra> they only show percentage.... (which is the fallback if te bios doesnt report that)
[09:49] <mpt> ogra: They don't need to, you can calculate it by taking constant measurements :-)
[09:50] <ogra> mpt, that means reimplementing gnome-power :) thats to much....
[09:50] <mpt> E.g. if the battery left has dropped from 25% to 20% in the past 10 minutes, you know you've got 20 minutes left
[09:50] <mpt> fie
[09:50] <mpt> ok
[09:51] <ogra> mpt, at least for breezy.... 
[09:51] <mpt> ok, complain upstream :-)
[09:51] <mpt> Seriously, asking people to twiddle a percentage is crack.
[09:51] <ogra> yep
[09:51] <Burgundavia> mpt, I have already done some work with gnome-power devel upstream regarding user interface
[09:51] <ogra> it shows the time if time is available....
[09:51] <Burgundavia> but this one is new to me
[09:52] <ogra> Burgundavia, thats the cvs version.... 
[09:52] <mpt> If I take out my old clapped-out battery that only does 2 hours, and put in a new battery that can do four hours, I shouldn't need to twiddle my settings.
[09:52] <ogra> Burgundavia, just install gnome-power, its in universe
[09:52] <ogra> mpt, desirable, yes... but thats all stuff to be done in the kernel layer or in hal...
[09:53] <Burgundavia> ogra, is that the latest cvs?
[09:53] <ogra> Burgundavia, from last weekend
[09:53] <ogra> (as the version number says ;) )
[09:54] <mpt> ogra: userland software can calculate it from the percentage decline. But anyway. You're the wrong person to talk about that with :-)
[09:54] <mpt> and it's 8am and I really really should get to bed
[09:54] <ogra> mpt, probably not... i also hack on HAL stuff...
[09:55] <ogra> heh, yes, you probably should
[09:57] <Burgundavia> mpt, email sent
[09:58] <mpt> thanks Burgundavia
[10:00] <Kamion> chol: if you're still in contact with snow, I fixed his partitioning problem several days ago.
[10:05] <chol> Kamion, okey, i'll let him know if i see him
[10:07] <chol> thx
[10:17] <loo> hi
[10:18] <loo> I have a little question to ubuntu's  package policy
[10:18] <jackobill> I'm trying to build gnome from cvs with the instructions here http://www.gnome.org/~newren/tutorials/developing-with-gnome/html/ch04.html#building-instructions
[10:20] <loo> win 2k3 server sp1 need pam_winbind 3.0.14a, which is in breezy, is it possible that this version comes in hoary?
[10:22] <jackobill> when I try to use jhbuild bootstrap it says that the command is not found
[10:24] <Amaranth> jackobill: you need to add ~/bin to $PATH
[10:24] <jackobill> how?
[10:24] <Amaranth> or cd to ~/bin and run ./jhbuild bootstrap
[10:24] <Amaranth> export PATH="$PATH:~/bin"
[10:24] <jackobill> ok
[10:25] <ogra> jackobill, why do you do that ?
[10:26] <ogra> breezy has the cvs packages from seb128 may correct me, last weekend ? 
[10:26] <jackobill> well to build gnome from cvs to be able to do some programming and compiling with the programs from HEAD<
[10:28] <jackobill> yeah but I have no idea how to keep my hoary and install breezy on the same system that as also a windows xp
[10:28] <seb128> use jhbuild if you want to keep an hoary and hack on GNOME on a different dir
[10:28] <jackobill> if you can explain me how to, I'd like pretty much to test breezy and work with it
[10:28] <jackobill> k
[10:28] <Amaranth> ogra: it has 2.11.3 things, yeah
[10:28] <ogra> Amaranth, yep
[10:29] <jackobill> but is there any way to keep hoary and windows on a box and to add breezy?
[10:29] <Amaranth> does jhbuild pull GTK+ from CVS?
[10:29] <ogra> Amaranth, but i rely on seb128's word  :)
[10:29] <Amaranth> that would be a reason to use it, to test out the cairo goodness
[10:30] <seb128> jackobill: use a partition for it
[10:30] <seb128> Amaranth: you can use jhbuild for that right
[10:30] <jackobill> seb128 : ok... can you give me an example of how to partition everything? do I keep the same /home?
[10:32] <seb128> there is zillions of ways
[10:32] <seb128> you can have a common /home if you want
[10:32] <jackobill> k
[10:32] <seb128> a way is:
[10:32] <seb128> /dev/hda1 windows
[10:32] <seb128> /dev/hda2 linux1
[10:32] <seb128> /dev/hda3 linux2
[10:32] <seb128> /dev/hda5 home
[10:33] <seb128> and make a swap, like /dev/hda6
[10:33] <jackobill> is there a program in ubuntu to see the current partitions
[10:34] <xhaker> sudo fdisk -l
[10:34] <ogra> jackobill, gparted
[10:35] <xhaker> nice one too ogra, but if he has a messed up partition table he won't see anything
[10:35] <elmo> Kamion: are there any udeb only source packages you're aware of off hand?
[10:35] <ogra> xhaker, might be... but we want to include gparted, so i'm happy about every tester ;)
[10:36] <Burgundavia> ogra, got a nice bug for you, haven't filed it yet, for gparted
[10:36] <ogra> Burgundavia, go ahead :)
[10:36] <Burgundavia> ogra, the thing is, I think the bug was caused by something else, not gparted
[10:37] <jackobill> I got this : /dev/hdb3   (system)  Extended , what extended means?
[10:37] <ogra> Burgundavia, sad...
[10:37] <Burgundavia> basically it created a screwed up partition table on a sata drive
[10:37] <ogra> jackobill, there are other partitions inside....
[10:37] <xhaker> an extended partition is like a container Burgundavia 
[10:38] <Burgundavia> xhaker, huh?
[10:38] <jackobill> can I show you my partitions scheme and then you could give me advice on how to install breezy with this?
[10:38] <ogra> Burgundavia, curretly i'm only aware that it breaks sd cards...
[10:38] <Burgundavia> ogra, well, once I get on the machine again (my brothers), I will report it in a more useful manner
[10:39] <xhaker> Burgundavia, an extended partition is a host partition for other partitions...
[10:39] <ogra> Burgundavia, great, thanks
[10:43] <Burgundavia> xhaker, yes, but I wonder why you are telling me
[10:44] <xhaker> ohh, right.. i should be directing this to jackobill 
[10:44] <Burgundavia> xhaker, it is ok, I was a little confused, that is all
[10:46] <jackobill> configure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check
[10:46] <jackobill> See `config.log' for more details.
[10:46] <jackobill> *** error during stage configure of pkg-config: could not configure package *** [8/10] 
[10:46] <jackobill> how can I get this working?
[10:47] <jackobill> forget this
[11:06] <thesaltydog> is there any goodwill mate who can spend 10 min. on this page and edit/review contents? http://www.ubuntu.com/wiki/InitScriptHumanDescriptions
[11:09] <\sh> thesaltydog: KDE == KDE and not Kde ;)
[11:10] <\sh> PPP is also wrong..u need it also for DSL...as a sub of pppoe
[11:11] <\sh> samba: Share files among computers on a LAN ... difficult..nfs is doing the same
[11:11] <\sh> i would say: MS netbios shares ;)
[11:11] <Nafallo> \sh: how many know about netbios? ;-)
[11:11] <Nafallo> \sh: users that is.
[11:11] <seb128> calc: around?
[11:11] <\sh> ok..MS shares
[11:12] <\sh> xorg-common: Main Graphical Interface
[11:12] <\sh> is a nono
[11:12] <\sh> it's the same when u say: X is a Windows alike System 
[11:13] <Nafallo> anacron?
[11:13] <KaiL_> any WLAN experts? I have some very strange ipw2100, which doesn't want to enable it's txpower
[11:13] <\sh> also a question...vixie-cron do the same ;)
[11:14] <Nafallo> \sh: but anacron doesn't do that?
[11:14] <\sh> Nafallo: not only
[11:14] <Nafallo> anacron runs stuff cron misses to run :-)
[11:14] <\sh> my anacron does also something else
[11:16] <\sh> i think the first sentence in anacron(8) says all: "Anacron can be used to execute commands periodically, with a frequency specified in days."
[11:17] <Nafallo> drop "Internet " from inetd :-)
[11:18] <Nafallo> \sh: ahh, then it's days then ;)
[11:18] <\sh> hdparm: is not only for hard disks
[11:18] <\sh> Nafallo: anacron doesn't assume that your computer is running 24h
[11:19] <Nafallo> \sh: yepp
[11:19] <ogra> acpi-support isnt tied to laptops, it also manages power events e.g. the powerbutton etc
[11:19] <\sh> it's nasty btw.
[11:19] <Nafallo> networking is for networking, not only internet :-)
[11:20] <\sh> makedev
[11:20] <\sh> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
Creates special files to interact with hardware</body>
[11:20] <ogra> alsa initscripts are something a user shouldnt be able to restart from a gui
[11:20] <\sh> not true.../dev/null is not hardware
[11:20] <\sh>  /dev/tty* is mostly not hardware
[11:21] <jcole>  /dev/urandom
[11:21] <ogra> \sh, and makedev isnt really used in the face of udev....
[11:21] <\sh> apache: webserver ... hmmm...apache2: second generation webserver
[11:21] <\sh> what is lighthttpd then?
[11:22] <\sh> mdadm: manages multiple disk devices for fault-tolerant...
[11:23] <Nafallo> ssh: allows encrypted shell-access :-)
[11:24] <Nafallo> you might even use it on localhost if you like ;-)
[11:24] <ogra> and also file transfers and remote X sessions :)
[11:24] <\sh> rsync is quite nice for local file syncs as well :)
[11:25] <\sh> and remote file execution
[11:25] <\sh> and light tunnel software
[11:25] <Nafallo> ssh: allows encrypted access :-)
[11:26] <Nafallo> webmin is better as it where IMHO
[11:26] <Nafallo> same goes for xorg-common
[11:28] <Nafallo> hmm, thesaltydog timed out a while ago ;-)
[11:29] <ogra> hmm, i doubt xorg-common does anything usefull if you run it with restart or stop....
[11:32] <\sh> ok...time to sleep more then 4 hours a night
[11:32] <\sh> trying to sleep 5
[11:32] <Nafallo> :-)
[11:32] <Nafallo> \sh: g'night :-)
[11:33] <\sh> last cigarette
[11:33] <\sh> before I'm falling apart
[11:34] <\sh> I will be happy when this transition is over..
[11:36] <Burgundavia> ok, this idea is cool --> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40322
[11:38] <\sh> "Redmund Artistic Recycling Project (RARP)" lol
[11:46] <\sh> off to bed
[11:46] <Kamion> elmo: loads - main-menu, anna, kbd-chooser, partman*, partconf, rescue, debian-installer-utils, {grub,lilo,yaboot,...}-installer, prebaseconfig come to mind immediately
[11:47] <elmo> kamion: doh, okay, thanks
[11:48] <Kamion> elmo: (curious?)
[11:49] <elmo> nah, trying to work out if I need to bother generating Packages files for all the udeb components for breezy-{auto,}test
[11:49] <elmo> the way they work with apt-ftparchive makes them a pain/repetitve in the config file
[11:49] <elmo> (if I don't generate them and there are udeb only source pakcages, the buildd will never know they've been compiled)