[12:01] <mako> and the fact that did, i am a small-scale book collector :)
[12:01] <mako> mdke: i fully intend to :)
[12:01] <mako> mdke: party at my place!
[12:02] <mako> ok.. where is mark
[12:02] <elmo> mako: he's around, he just schnaked on #c
[12:02] <ogra> hehe
[12:02] <sabdfl> evening all
[12:02] <mdke> hiya
[12:02] <ogra> yay
[12:02] <Amaranth> hi
[12:02] <ivoks> hi
[12:02] <smurfix> hi all
[12:02] <mvo> hey
[12:03] <\sh> *yawn* evening sabdfl 
[12:03] <Nafallo> hi sabdfl! :-)
[12:03] <Seveas> hi sabdfl 
[12:03] <ivoks> it's morning allready :)
[12:03] <mdke> smurfix, :)
[12:03] <mgalvin> hi sabdfl
[12:03] <Nafallo> ivoks: indeed ;-)
[12:03] <dholbach> hi
[12:03] <\sh> ivoks: deep night ;)
[12:03] <opi> g'day sabdfl 
[12:03] <DanielN_> hi all
[12:03] <opi> hi smurfix 
[12:03] <mako> ok
[12:04] <Seveas> opi, what's up with the accent, ahve you ahd too many beers already?
[12:04] <mako> agenda is at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[12:04] <mako> smurfix: greetings
[12:04] <mako> lets get started..
[12:04] <mako> if peopel can state their name for the record, it helps me write things up
[12:05] <mdke> Matthew East
[12:05] <mgalvin> mgalvin is Matt Galvin
[12:05] <pschulz01> pschulz is Paul Schulz
[12:05] <sabdfl> ok
[12:05] <mako> for the 3 people that just joined us (including sabdfl), kamion won't be here tonight
[12:05] <mako> he's moving
[12:05] <sabdfl> mako: member candidates first?
[12:06] <mako> lets see is the one loco team person is her
[12:06] <mako> here
[12:06] <mako> LjubisaRadovanovic ?
[12:06] <mako> anybody know his/her nick?
[12:06] <ivoks> prevod1 ?
[12:06] <Seveas> prevod, 
[12:06] <prevod1> Yes
[12:06] <sabdfl> prevod1: Ljubisa?
[12:06] <prevod1> prevod - Ljubisa Radovanovic
[12:06] <mako> prevod1: welcome
[12:07] <prevod1> Hi
[12:07] <mako> from the serbian team?
[12:07] <smurfix> So what's happening in the Serbian team?
[12:07] <sabdfl> welcome, tell us about your plan for a LoCo team, where, who's working on it, goals, opportunities etc
[12:07] <prevod1> Yes
[12:07] <Amaranth> just though i'd toss that in there
[12:07] <mako> most of your webpage is in cyrillic.. which is cool but a little opaque to me :)
[12:08] <prevod1> Serbian team heve 5 translator
[12:08] <sabdfl> readable but still a bit opaque to me :-)
[12:08] <prevod1> + 2 admin for forum site
[12:08] <mako> prevod1: how many people participating in the forums?
[12:09] <mako> you busy with other stuff right now, prevod1?
[12:09] <sabdfl> prevod1: have you guys joined this? https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators/
[12:10] <mako> alright.. 
[12:10] <sabdfl> guess so
[12:10] <opi> looks like I ping timeout
[12:10] <mako> maybe not busy.. but not quite right
[12:10] <mako> yeah
[12:10] <mako> alright
[12:10] <mako> lets move on to members
[12:10] <mako> and come back to him if he can fix his connection
[12:10] <prevod1> sabdfl: No, for now
[12:10] <mdke> opi, i hear ya
[12:11] <prevod1> Forum http://ubuntu.fsn.org.yu/forum/ 33 members
[12:11] <sabdfl> prevod1: ok, tell us about the local team, what sorts of things we can help you with to get ubuntu going in Serbia?
[12:11] <opi> mako: the old session pingedout
[12:11] <mako> opi: i see that.. now ;)
[12:11] <prevod1> Only mail list for naw
[12:12] <sabdfl> how many big cities are there in serbia?
[12:12] <sabdfl> are there linux conferences we could help you arrange a presence at?
[12:12] <ivoks> sabdfl: 1 bigger than 1 million
[12:12] <sabdfl> which one is that?
[12:12] <ivoks> belgrade
[12:12] <prevod1> Beograd - 2 milions + 15 sites > 100 000 
[12:13] <sabdfl> for the breezy launch, would you be able to put us in touch with the local newspapers and magazines?
[12:13] <mako> now serbian can be written in either cyrillic and latin, right?
[12:13] <sabdfl> translate announcements and answer questions from local journalists who want to know more about free software?
[12:14] <mako> gnome has two serbian translations
[12:14] <mako> Serbian (sr) and Serbian Jekavian (sr@ije)
[12:14] <ivoks> they have http://ubuntu-cs.org/
[12:14] <mako> what is the difference there?
[12:14] <ivoks> i don't know how much it's related with prevod1
[12:14] <ivoks> s/with/to
[12:15] <mako> prevod1, is http://ubuntu-cs.org/ your loco's site?
[12:15] <prevod1> Yes
[12:16] <mako> great :)
[12:16] <prevod1> http://prevod.org/osobe/ - Gnome translators
[12:17] <mako> prevod1: so the translation is into cyrillic and the webstie is in latin?
[12:17] <prevod1> On Gnome 2.10 update work  members 
[12:17] <sabdfl> prevod1: are you guys also translating for kubuntu apps?
[12:17] <prevod1>  cyrillic mainly
[12:18] <prevod1> http://www.kde.org.yu/ 
[12:18] <mako> is your loco involved with both of those projects?
[12:19] <opi> hi seb128
[12:20] <mdke> prevod1, out of interest, what sort of structure does your group have?
[12:20] <prevod1> and we have OpenOffice group also http://sr.openoffice.org/
[12:20] <mako> prevod1: sounds great
[12:20] <mako> prevod1: are you limiting yourselves fully to l10n now or are you also working on other things, like conferences and such that sabdfl asked above?
[12:21] <prevod1> Sorry, On Gnome 2.10 update work 2 members
[12:23] <sabdfl> prevod1: so, is your focus just translation at this point?
[12:23] <sabdfl> or are you interested in advocacy or education or media or other fields?
[12:23] <sabdfl> ok
[12:24] <prevod1> http://www.fsn.org.yu/ FSN Serbia have conferences in plan
[12:24] <sabdfl> prevod1: thanks for coming to this meeting and keep us posted on your plans!
[12:24] <prevod1> They have magasine http://gnuzilla.fsn.org.yu/ 
[12:24] <mdke> it would be cool to have an ubuntu presence
[12:24] <mako> prevod1: if you are still around at the end, we can talk more
[12:24] <sabdfl> let us know if we can help you in any way, with the conference or cd's or a virtual server or anything else
[12:24] <sabdfl> mako: lead on
[12:24] <mako> prevod1: we should move on right now to deal with the other people :)
[12:24] <mako> alright.. new members
[12:25] <mako> i saw a number of people in the intro names
[12:25] <mako> DanielNeuenschwander?
[12:25] <DanielN_> yep, here :)
[12:25] <mako> motaboy: remind me before we finish with new candidates to go over you
[12:25] <mako> DanielN_: why don't you introduce yourself, give us a few sentances to describe your work on ubuntu
[12:25] <motaboy> mako: ok!
[12:25] <mako> what you've done and what you will be doing
[12:26] <mako> or want to be doing :)
[12:26] <mako> DanielN_: run with it :)
[12:26] <sabdfl> your work to date, and your vision for ubuntu, and how you think you can help it attain that vision
[12:26] <DanielN_> well, i'm active since ~3-4 months in the german ubuntu forums
[12:26] <sabdfl> if the other guys/girls on the agenda could prepare those intros, it will speed things up too!
[12:26] <mako> dholbach, ogra, tseng, etc: you guys around to vouch for motu folks?
[12:26] <opi> sorry guys, I'm sick and will not make it! :-( Have a nice, productive meeting and wait for my Python surprise (if I'll manage to code it;-))
[12:27] <sabdfl> DanielN_: where are you based? what's going in your local town with free software?
[12:27] <tseng> mako: present.
[12:27] <DanielN_> i began focus on the packaging stuff, so i joinet #u-m to look, what happens there
[12:27] <ogra> mako, sure
[12:27] <mdke> get better soon opi 
[12:27] <ivoks> opi: :(( tak care
[12:27] <Seveas> opi, get well soon
[12:27] <sabdfl> opi: pitter patter :-)
[12:27] <\sh> we're here
[12:27] <opi> see younext meeting
[12:27] <\sh> opi:go and sleep and get better
[12:28] <dholbach> DanielN_ didnt let me catch my breath in the motu interview :)
[12:28] <ogra> mako, DanielN_ is frequently in #ubuntu-motu 
[12:28] <tseng> DanielN_ is pretty inquisitive in #u-m, asking good questions about package-fu.
[12:28] <sabdfl> DanielN_: which are the packages you are most interested in?
[12:28] <ivoks> DanielN_: is making his way in packaging
[12:28] <mako> DanielN_: it says on your wiki page that you maintain a package in universe and have been working on the Cxx translation?
[12:29] <ogra> mako, its on the review page... we are lagging with reviews....
[12:29] <dholbach> he has one package in the NEWPackages-queue and started working on Cxx, right DanielN_?
[12:29] <DanielN_> mako: well, it's not in universe (yet?).. i'm just working on it and it's close to be finish
[12:29] <DanielN_> dholbach: right ;)
[12:29] <mako> ogra, dholbach: would guys be more comfortable waiting till the next meeting to take a look at that package?
[12:29] <sabdfl> DanielN_: are you interested in any other aspects of ubuntu beyond code and packaging?
[12:29] <dholbach> DanielN_: you're in switzerland, right? sabdfl asked about it :)
[12:29] <tseng> can I give him +1 as member?
[12:30] <mako> tseng: no
[12:30] <mako> tseng: yes :)
[12:30] <tseng> k.
[12:30] <Mez> o_o
[12:30] <ogra> mako, i'm fine with DanielN_ for membership he is very interested and does valuable stuff in #ubuntu-motu
[12:30] <Mez> mako = schizophrenic
[12:30] <sabdfl> mako: i'm getting mixed messages from you there :-)
[12:30] <\sh> I would like to see DanielN_ also as member: +1 from me
[12:30] <DanielN_> sabdfl: i'm more technical interested.. so packaging and those stuff would be main focused.. and i'm not a pretty good coder at all ;)
[12:30] <ivoks> +1
[12:31] <DanielN_> dholbach: yes, from switzerland :)
[12:31] <ogra> hehe
[12:31] <ivoks> :)
[12:31] <dholbach> *snigger*
[12:31] <Mez> ah I wish we could all do that
[12:31] <\sh> DanielN_: more gnome or kde...i forgot
[12:31] <DanielN_> \sh: more gnome
[12:31] <mdke> morning jsgotangco 
[12:31] <jsgotangco> sorry late
[12:31] <jsgotangco> morning
[12:31] <dholbach> hey jsgotangco 
[12:31] <jsgotangco> (6:30am)
[12:31] <tseng> hi jerome.
[12:31] <ogra> hi jsgotangco 
[12:31] <jsgotangco> hey
[12:31] <\sh> DanielN_: can I bribe you to become a kde fan? so u can learn from amu, riddell and me ;)
[12:32] <DanielN_> sabdfl: so, what you wna tto know about switzerland? :)
[12:32] <sabdfl> DanielN_: yes, was curious about the state of free software in your local community
[12:32] <DanielN_> \sh: well, i'm open to all ;) just try it 
[12:32] <ogra> DanielN_, naah, join the gnome team ;)
[12:32] <mako> DanielN_: it would be nicer to document the page a bit more, but i'm happy approving you for memership based on the testimonials of motu's :)
[12:33] <DanielN_> sabdfl: there is of course much of free software in companies (much server side stuff) there are a fiev LUGs too
[12:33] <\sh> sabdfl: switzerland is not as big as the table mountain in cape town ;)
[12:33] <anibal> mako, may I be next? I'm late for work already, I'm in Melbourne, Australia
[12:33] <mako> DanielN_: ion3 team gets the babes/dudes
[12:33] <mako> anibal: yes.. 
[12:33] <sabdfl> DanielN_: +1 to you from me, thanks for your contribution so far and looking forward to working together going forward!
[12:33] <mako> elmo: feelings?
[12:33] <DanielN_> mako: i'll make it fine the wiki page ;) and thanks
[12:33] <mako> DanielN_: thanks! and thanks for your work so far
[12:34] <elmo> mako: sure
[12:34] <DanielN_> sabdfl: great thank!!
[12:34] <mako> DanielN_: welcome!
[12:34] <mako> DanielN_: signed coc, on my desk :)
[12:34] <jsgotangco> welcome
[12:34] <mdke> welcome DanielN_ 
[12:34] <DanielN_> yeah, WOHO :))
[12:34] <mako> anibal: alright, you're up
[12:34] <DanielN_> thanks to all of you
[12:34] <ivoks> congrats DanielN_ 
[12:34] <sabdfl> next up?
[12:34] <Nafallo> congrats DanielN_ :-)
[12:34] <mako> anibal: do the 3 sentence contributions + vision
[12:34] <DanielN_> and to my "nerving-noobie-question" repeaters (now who is mentioned, guys) :)
[12:34] <\sh> welcome DanielN_ :) 
[12:34] <mako> sabdfl: anibal is jumping the queue so as to not be (more) late to work
[12:34] <Mez> mako, maybe you shouldnt refer it as a "signed coc"  - you dont wanna know what went thgrough my head
[12:35] <anibal> I would like to maintain my debian packages in ubuntu
[12:35] <jsgotangco> we used to refer it as 'mako's CoC'
[12:35] <ogra> yay DanielN_ 
[12:35] <ivoks> Mez: :)
[12:35] <anibal> I maintain 2 packages of priority important, five of priority
[12:35] <anibal> standard and 2 in section base.
[12:35] <anibal> Section Priority        Package
[12:35] <anibal> [12:35] <anibal> perl    important       libtext-charwidth-perl
[12:35] <anibal> perl    important       libtext-wrapi18n-perl
[12:35] <anibal> net     standard        bsd-finger
[12:35] <anibal> net     standard        nfs-utils
[12:35] <anibal> net     standard        pidentd
[12:35] <anibal> net     standard        portmap
[12:35] <anibal> utils   standard        bzip2
[12:35] <anibal> base    optional        fdutils
[12:35] <anibal> base    optional        pump
[12:35] <anibal> admin   optional        rpm
[12:36] <mdke> ooh
[12:36] <Seveas> Mez, http://www.coc.nl/dopage.pl?thema=any&pagina=algemeen&algemeen_id=126
[12:36] <sabdfl> anibal: wow, that's a lot of responsibility, thanks for your contribution to free software and debian, and now ubuntu!
[12:36] <Seveas> ;)
[12:36] <DanielN_> well, it's late here, i'm going to sleep now :)
[12:36] <sabdfl> night DanielN_
[12:36] <DanielN_> cu all guys and thanks alot one more time ;)
[12:36] <dholbach> bye DanielN_ 
[12:36] <jsgotangco> bye
[12:36] <Mez> :p Seveas 
[12:36] <mako> alright, i know anibal from a number of places.. also met up in australia and other places before that
[12:36] <\sh> DanielN_: have a good night night
[12:36] <mako> been communicating off and on about ubuntu in a number of contexts for a while
[12:36] <sabdfl> anibal: it will take some time for you to become a developer with upload to main, you'll need to start in motu, and go through the process, is that ok?
[12:37] <anibal> I'm also getting involved with the debian-kernel team, and later with the ubuntu-kernel team
[12:37] <mako> anibal: great.. that's a great way to contribute :)
[12:37] <tseng> I dont know anibal, but thats an impressive list.
[12:37] <mdke> awesome
[12:37] <sabdfl> also, because debian has the benefit of maintainer exclusivity, we count on them to inject the pride and quality, then we work across packages
[12:37] <dholbach> cool, anibal :)
[12:37] <\sh> quite interessting work on his debian page
[12:38] <elmo> anibal: are you aware we don't have a BML in Ubuntu and anyone is free to work on any package?
[12:38] <sabdfl> so that means that none of us has a veto on a given package in ubuntu
[12:38] <elmo> s/aware/\& and okay with the fact that/
[12:38] <anibal> elmo, yes I know
[12:38] <sabdfl> we can only do that because we have a much smaller set of maintainers, and because we get the packages from debian with the quality builtin, otherwise it would be a race to gentoo-land
[12:38] <ogra> sabdfl, MOTU doesnt personalize packages... so no veto ;)
[12:38] <dholbach> what's a BML? a black mailing list or what?
[12:38] <anibal> that's okay with me
[12:38] <elmo> dholbach: big maintainer lock
[12:38] <sabdfl> dholbach: big maintainer lock
[12:39] <dholbach> ah ok :)
[12:39] <sabdfl> it's how debian ensures the quality of its packages
[12:39] <sabdfl> but it would not work with the ubuntu model
[12:39] <dholbach> yes
[12:39] <dholbach> i wasn't aware of that abbreviation
[12:39] <sabdfl> anibal: ok cool, it will be great to have someone with your experience on board. have you met any of the motu yet?
[12:39] <mako> i'm a little at a loss for what the best process is in terms of membership
[12:40] <tseng> mako: it will be hard since he wants to touch things in main
[12:40] <tseng> he'd have to work via someone else, which might be odd as he has the BML
[12:40] <mako> tseng: yeah, that's a maintainership issue.. and we trust his packaging skills (he's our upstream  for those packages)
[12:40] <sabdfl> well, his debian packages that come into our main are already a way for him to have a positive impact on ubuntu
[12:41] <tseng> surely.
[12:41] <sabdfl> if anibal wants to contribute to ubuntu, then the process would be the same for him as for anyone
[12:41] <tseng> i have no problem with member status for strong debian contributors with interest.
[12:41] <anibal> sabdfl, I have met mako, elmo, Kamion, Keybuk and many other during debconf4 and lca2005
[12:41] <Keybuk> so, a question that's worth asking, is what he hopes to do in Ubuntu that he can't do by maintaining the same packages in Debian
[12:41] <sabdfl> work with motu, become a maintainer and developer there, then become an uploader to main in time
[12:41] <Keybuk> anibal?
[12:42] <mako> Keybuk: i have a few answers for that :)
[12:42] <anibal> Keybuk, I would like to get more involved with ubuntu directly
[12:43] <\sh> I would like to hear his opinions on this bl**dy thread on d-d....how can ubuntu/debian debian/ubuntu work together in a human way
[12:43] <Seveas> anibal, prepare to be spammed by the MOTU :)
[12:43] <ivoks> :)
[12:43] <mako> \sh: that's another meeting dude
[12:43] <tseng> \sh: eh we need to save that for later
[12:43] <ogra> \sh, not now
[12:43] <tseng> \sh smackdown!
[12:43] <\sh> that was only loud thinking 
[12:43] <dholbach> Seveas: spammed?
[12:43] <sabdfl> \sh: relax about that, it will settle down once everyone has had a chance to vent spleen
[12:44] <Mez> dholbach, when John got talking abotu backports, he got spammed by MOTU (glares at ogra) lol.. to join them too
[12:44] <ogra> heh
[12:44] <Seveas> dholbach, notice the --> :) <-- it's a good thing too push new members to become MOTU's
[12:44] <anibal> \sh, I don't see much of a problem with the interaction between debian ans ubuntu, I think is beneficial for both debian and ubuntu
[12:44] <ogra> Mez, thats not spamming :)
[12:44] <\sh> anibal: forget about it right now :) 
[12:44] <Mez> sorry ogra, not spamming, just being espescially persistent (aka apamming)
[12:44] <sabdfl> anibal: ok, i think it';s too soon to approve membership, but i'm personally happy to have you here and hope you'll enjoy working with the motu
[12:44] <Nafallo> ogra: ... that's recruiting ;-).
[12:45] <ivoks> i think anibal is really eager to go to work :)
[12:45] <tseng> hm there is a really long list, maybe we need to focus more.
[12:45] <ogra> Mez, i never give up on fresh meat for the universe ;)
[12:45] <anibal> sabdfl, okay, NP
[12:45] <sabdfl> once you have done some work with them we'll confirm membership for you, and devel access would be confirmed by the tech board
[12:45] <Keybuk> anibal: after speaking with you at LCA I'm a little worried that you only with to become an Ubuntu maintainer because we've patched a couple of your packages in the past; when that wouldn't change, because we don't have any kind of Maintainership or NMU policy in Ubuntu -- people would still upload changes
[12:45] <sabdfl> the last step would be uploading to main
[12:45] <Keybuk> otoh, you're technical skills are good, so you'd be a great asset if you want to contribute :)
[12:45] <dholbach> anibal: it will be cool to have you around in MOTU world :)
[12:45] <Keybuk> and as mentioned at LCA, if you could package rpm 4.4 for us, that'd be great <g>
[12:45] <sabdfl> Keybuk: anibal says that's no problem, i'll take him at his word on it
[12:46] <anibal> Keybuk, that was mentioned before you arrived
[12:46] <sabdfl> i think we're ok on that front
[12:46] <mako> well, i'm happy to recognize anibals contributions through debian
[12:47] <sabdfl> anibal - welcome to ubuntu, the motu are the place to get going, then once you've made some distinct contribution there we can confirm membership, maintainership in universe, then maintainership in main
[12:47] <anibal> Keybuk, I'm very grateful about the ubuntu patches for my debian packages :)
[12:47] <sabdfl> cool
[12:47] <sabdfl> who's up next?
[12:48] <Mez> StacyWebb
[12:48] <Mez> according to the agenda
[12:48] <ivoks> anibal: welcome
[12:48] <mgalvin> should i speak sometime ?
[12:48] <sabdfl> is stacy around?
[12:48] <tseng> mgalvin: when we call you :P
[12:48] <Seveas> mgalvin, you're after StacyWebb
[12:48] <mgalvin> stepped away for a min, must have missed it, sorry
[12:49] <mako> mgalvin: in any case, go on stacy hasn't spoken up yet
[12:49] <mgalvin> ok, well I live in the US
[12:49] <mgalvin> I'm an enterprise java developer, db developer, and cvs admin/releaes manager
[12:49] <mgalvin> been using ubuntu since warty
[12:49] <mgalvin> I co-authored (ported) the Unofficial Ubuntu Guide to the PowerPC arch
[12:49] <mgalvin> help out on ubuntu-users
[12:49] <mgalvin> report bugs
[12:49] <sabdfl> that's an awesome document
[12:49] <mdke> oh hi mgalvin 
[12:49] <mgalvin> write install reports for install cds/dvds
[12:50] <mgalvin> hanging around on ubuntu-motu learning new stuff
[12:50] <mgalvin> sabdfl, thnx :)
[12:50] <sabdfl> mgalvin: what is your primary area of interest?
[12:50] <mgalvin> started packaging some apps, libcwd, gnome-clipboard-daemon, mmsrip, ogre, cegui, ultimatestunts, tuxtype2
[12:50] <mgalvin> Started process of becoming a DD
[12:50] <mgalvin> Already have packages in Debian uploaded by my sponsor madduck
[12:50] <mgalvin> hope to help keep us in sync with Debian and work on educational stuff, oh and java stuff since I am a java developer ;)
[12:50] <mgalvin> I am also working on packaing up some games
[12:50] <sabdfl> there's a big challenge out there now to produce a top-notch set of guides for different users
[12:50] <dholbach> MOTUGames!
[12:50] <mgalvin> my wiki page has some more stuff
[12:50] <ogra> yeah
[12:50] <mdke> sabdfl, nods
[12:51] <Seveas> mgalvin, with educational stuff, fo you mean edubuntu/ltsp..?
[12:51] <jsgotangco> +1 on mgalvin, he contributed his ppc doc for inclusion to svn
[12:51] <dholbach> yeah, he has some packages in NEWPackages-queue
[12:51] <\sh> hmm...siretart is not here ;)
[12:51] <mgalvin> well, at first educational games...
[12:51] <ogra> mgalvin, hey, we should talk ;)
[12:51] <mgalvin> but yes, i would like to help out with edubuntu
[12:51] <uniq> +1 for the ppc guide from me :)
[12:51] <mgalvin> as well
[12:51] <sabdfl> the guide for ppc is a great contribution
[12:52] <sabdfl> +1 from me
[12:52] <mdke> +1
[12:52] <mako> +1
[12:52] <ogra> +1
[12:52] <mako> elmo: ?
[12:52] <elmo> ack
[12:52] <sabdfl> done!
[12:52] <mgalvin> :)
[12:52] <mako> bam
[12:52] <Seveas> mgalvin, congrats!
[12:52] <sabdfl> welcome aboard mgalvin
[12:52] <mako> mgalvin: welcome!
[12:52] <Mez> mako - why not just say +2
[12:52] <mdke> welcome mgalvin 
[12:52] <ogra> applause mgalvin 
[12:52] <mako> mgalvin: signed coc on my desk ;)
[12:52] <dholbach> woohoo
[12:52] <mgalvin> yippie thanks all :)
[12:52] <Mez> nvm - I'm an idot and saw mdke and mako as same name
[12:52] <mako> SvenHerzberg ?
[12:52] <\sh> mgalvin: welcome :)
[12:52] <dholbach> mako: herzi's not here
[12:53] <mako> alright
[12:53] <mdke> Mez, ;)
[12:53] <mako> MarekSpruell
[12:53] <mako> ?
[12:53] <Mez> they're too similar... half of them is the same!
[12:53] <mako> nalioth ?
[12:53] <nalioth> Howdy! I live in Houston, Tx and spend a lot of time in #ubuntu helpin out brand-new, new and beginner level folks
[12:54] <mako> i don't understand the difference
[12:54] <mako> but i appreciate the work :)
[12:54] <jsgotangco> *grin*
[12:54] <sabdfl> ok, who's up now?
[12:54] <mako> sabdfl: nalioth
[12:54] <nalioth> i only own PPC machines and have built a few binaries for them, but i'm not really into packaging
[12:54] <mako> nalioth: that's absolutely fine, packaging is only one of many ways to contribute
[12:54] <tseng> not into yet, or disinterested?
[12:55] <sabdfl> nalioth: do you hang out on both the channel and the forums?
[12:55] <mako> tseng: packaging is for weenies :)
[12:55] <ogra> mako, bah
[12:55] <tseng> mako: oh man, ill get you later.
[12:55] <Mez> nice to know what you think of the MOTU mako :P
[12:55] <ogra> heh
[12:55] <nalioth> I would like to see ubuntu become more dominant in the linux world, and in doing so, become more user-friendly (although it is the most user-friendly distro i've used)
[12:56] <nalioth> sabdfl: i've been thinking about writing a couple wiki articles, don't hang around much on the forums
[12:56] <sabdfl> ok
[12:56] <mako> nalioth: your page seems a little thin
[12:56] <sabdfl> nalioth: to be a member, you need to be able to point to some "substantial contribution", as well as have a clear idea for where you'd like ubuntu to get to in your community
[12:56] <mako> nalioth: that's not to say that your contributions aren't substantiall.. just that it's not visibly documented on your page at the moment
[12:56] <jsgotangco> he's been pretty active in #ubuntu though i noticed lately
[12:56] <SquishyWaffle> I hate to interject but helping new people is a big deal.
[12:57] <mako> SquishyWaffle: nobody is objecting to that
[12:57] <Mez> I agree with SquishyWaffle 
[12:57] <mdke> there is no disagreement
[12:57] <mako> Mez: everybody agrees with SquishyWaffle :)
[12:57] <Mez> IMO, the "n00bs" are the people we want to be supporting the most
[12:57] <Mez> and they ned more focus
[12:57] <SquishyWaffle> Newcomers are impressed at our newbie friendliness and thanks to people like nalioth, we can say with confidence that we fit this description.
[12:57] <sabdfl> least of all me :-)
[12:57] <mako> Mez: everybody agrees with that
[12:57] <mako> sabdfl: no, least of all *me*
[12:58] <sabdfl> nalioth: what i'd be looking for is a plan to make your contribution somehow institutional
[12:58] <elmo> mako: no, ME, damn you
[12:58] <Mez> sabdfl, what do you mena by "institutional"
[12:58] <elmo> (not that I have any idea what you're talking about)
[12:58] <nalioth> what mez said :P
[12:58] <mdke> *laughs* @elmo
[12:58] <sabdfl> turn it into something that makes an ongoing difference to people
[12:58] <mako> elmo: alright, you win. you are the least of all
[12:59] <sabdfl> even if it's making a commitment to being in #ubuntu a few hours a week
[12:59] <allee> where is the translation in xkb/symbol/* of:  key (like <i65>) to keycode (of xev) defined?  Once I knew :(
[12:59] <sabdfl> or helping to structure the FAQ's
[12:59] <allee> sorry wrong channel :(
[12:59] <sabdfl> being a member is quite a serious responsibility
[12:59] <jsgotangco> aye
[12:59] <Mez> ah thanks sabdfl that's what I needed (so i cna answer that when it comes o my "questioning"
[12:59] <mako> nalioth: also, providing testimonials and such is a good way to document your participation
[12:59] <sabdfl> because the members select the CC, who are ultimately the group that determines policy and direction for the project
[12:59] <sabdfl> the board of directors, sort of
[01:00] <mako> nalioth: from current member who also hanging out on the channel
[01:00] <nalioth> mako: you mean from other members?
[01:00] <sabdfl> the members vote to confirm any nomination i make
[01:00] <sabdfl> to the CC (elmo :-)
[01:00] <mako> nalioth: sure.. operators, etc
[01:00] <nalioth> there are some of them here now
[01:00] <nalioth> or were
[01:00] <sabdfl> developers / maintainers vote to confirm nominations to the Tech Board
[01:00] <sabdfl> so when considering people for membership, i sort of like to be able to see where they want ubuntu to go
[01:01] <sabdfl> because that will help us pick good CC members
[01:01] <mako> nalioth: and we like to point to a pattern of specific example and concrete contributions we can point to
[01:01] <nalioth> but committing time to #ubuntu is no problem, i'm there 2+ hours every day as it is
[01:01] <sabdfl> that's a substantial contribution
[01:01] <mako> nalioth: great, yes
[01:01] <mdke> thats awesome
[01:01] <sabdfl> nalioth: would you be prepared to lead a small team of "newbie gods"?
[01:02] <Mez> sabdfl, if he isnt - I would be :d
[01:02] <nalioth> sabdfl: ok (whatever a newbie-god is)
[01:02] <tseng> yes a a group of regulars to help/police #ubuntu would be great.
[01:02] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:02] <sabdfl> ops on #ubuntu, remind folks about the CoC if it gets too hot
[01:02] <tseng> nalioth: do you know some other serious regulars?
[01:02] <sabdfl> point people to docs
[01:02] <mako> Mez: it's not a mutually exclsive group :)
[01:02] <Mez> nalioth - do you think you have what it needs to "lead" them thoguh
[01:03] <sabdfl> basically, take that 2 hours, and become part of the formal team with it
[01:03] <Mez> true mak, but that was acually one of the things I'd like to see in ubuntu
[01:03] <sabdfl> that would be a basis for membership
[01:03] <Mez> mk o *
[01:03] <Mez> godamnit
[01:03] <Seveas> i'd love to see nalioth a bit more in #ubuntu
[01:03] <sabdfl> well, don't get hung up on leadership or authority, jsut commit to being there and helping people make it better
[01:03] <Seveas> he's a good helper
[01:03] <mako> Mez: nothing keeping you from taking a leadership role in thie regard to if it is line with the type of contributions you'd like to make
[01:03] <nalioth> i like to teach people to fish
[01:03] <sabdfl> leadership is best when it's emergent
[01:04] <mako> Mez: but right, like sabdfl said
[01:04] <mdke> or non existent ;)
[01:04] <Mez> I agree with Seveas - he's given some good advice to me in the past - and when he hasnt been able to, pointed me in the roght direction (back when i was a complete n00b)
[01:04] <mdke> *grins*
[01:04] <mako> mdke: damn anarchists
[01:04] <sabdfl> ok
[01:04] <ogra> lol
[01:04] <mdke> LOL
[01:04] <Mez> sabdfl, you're too well spoke n - reading what you wreite hurts my brains
[01:04] <sabdfl> +1 to nalioth on the basis of past contribution and plans to help form a newbie help-squad
[01:05] <mako> sabdfl: i'd really prefer to wait for 2 weeks
[01:05] <mako> to see how it goes.. and to help build up the wiki page
[01:05] <mako> get some testimonials, etdc
[01:05] <jsgotangco> jdub: hi
[01:05] <ogra> wohoo, jdub 
[01:05] <tseng> pants off.
[01:06] <Nafallo> jdub: morning jdub :-)
[01:06] <Mez> if I could also suggest, maybe nalioth could hang around the absolute beginner forum on the forums aswell ?
[01:06] <jdub> morning all
[01:06] <\sh> jdub: my hero....:) nice work on planet design :) awsome
[01:06] <sabdfl> ok
[01:06] <jdub> \sh: all praise to steven garrity
[01:06] <mdke> morning jdub 
[01:06] <sabdfl> mako: it was only +1 not +100 in this case :-)
[01:06] <mako> that's not a vote against, but i'd be more comfortable if we deferred until next meeting
[01:07] <tseng> id like to see more testimonial/wiki stuff
[01:07] <jsgotangco> who p.u.c has changed
[01:07] <\sh> jdub: ok..hug this guy for me 
[01:07] <Seveas> +1 on makos point
[01:07] <mako> i'm happy to work with nalioth to get teh wiki page a little thicker, some testimonials and such
[01:07] <sabdfl> so nalioth, is that clear? keep it up, start building a team, and come back in two weeks to revisit the membership option
[01:07] <mako> yeah, i don't think it will be controverseal..
[01:07] <mako> nalioth: work me directly if you are unsure about anything :)
[01:07] <nalioth> mako ok
[01:08] <Seveas> nalioth, can you keep me in touch about the newbie-squad idea too please
[01:08] <mako> awesome
[01:08] <Mez> and mako gains another acoloyte
[01:08] <nalioth> Seveas: yep
[01:08] <mako> Seveas: nice.. maybe we can make another meeting
[01:08] <mako> i love those!!!
[01:08] <mdke> *laughs*
[01:08] <ogra> heh
[01:08] <ivoks> :)
[01:08] <mako> ok.. 
[01:08] <mdke> that mako guy is a masochist
[01:08] <mako> this leads into the next item though
[01:09] <tseng> mdke: dude he uses ion
[01:09] <mako> no wait it doesn't
[01:09] <mako> motaboy: 
[01:09] <tseng> mdke: of course he is.
[01:09] <ogra> Seveas, just move some TZ away ;)
[01:09] <mako> motaboy: you still around?
[01:09] <motaboy> mako: her I am
[01:09] <Seveas> ogra, neh, I work/live/study/have a fiancee here
[01:09] <sabdfl> motaboy: you have the floor
[01:09] <mako> motaboy: want to do a brief intro into what you've done where you see yourself taking ubuntu?
[01:09] <motaboy> Ok.
[01:10] <motaboy> I love kde and I become a kde dev 3 years ago joining the kdebluetooth project
[01:10] <mako> wiki page is https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SimoneGotti
[01:10] <motaboy> and doing some programs related to obex and syncing stuffs.
[01:11] <mako> Riddell: you around?
[01:11] <mako> any other kubuntites to vouch for motaboy?
[01:11] <Riddell> mako: yep, motaboy has done a great job on koffice, kdebluetooth and other packages
[01:11] <\sh> motaboy: u worked with the kde herd @gentoo?
[01:11] <uniq> +1 for motaboy.
[01:11] <Mez> motaboy - have you ever done any work for bluetooth on the PPC arcitecture?
[01:11] <dholbach> i reviewed some packages, they were good
[01:11] <ogra> amu even
[01:11] <mako> motaboy: interestd in any non-code contributions?
[01:11] <mako> loco team, something?
[01:11] <motaboy> Yes I was a gentoo dev until some months ago.
[01:11] <sabdfl> Simone, what have you been working on in Ubuntu so far?
[01:12] <\sh> motaboy: why did u leave the gentoo project?
[01:12] <mdke> motaboy is often in the #ubuntu-it channel
[01:12] <motaboy> Mez: I received various mails from ppc users about kdebluetooth working correctly
[01:12] <ogra> \sh, why did you ?
[01:12] <Mez> motaboy, ah cool - was just wondering, caus eI know the apple bluetooth developer pesonally
[01:12] <\sh> ogra: i didn't cause I never was inside the hard circle ;) gentoo e.v. is germany ;)
[01:12] <motaboy> \sh: because I always like debian but it was not so much updated and I liked the source compilation
[01:13] <motaboy> but I found that a source based distros has tooooooo much unresolvable problems...
[01:13] <\sh> motaboy: understandable
[01:13] <motaboy> and then camed ubuntu :D
[01:13] <sabdfl> motaboy: so are you regularly providing the MOTU with patches?
[01:13] <motaboy> sabdfl: I did some packages for kdebluetooth of course, abakus, metabar, koffice
[01:14] <sabdfl> can anyone on the MOTU say that motaboy has already made a substantial contribution?
[01:14] <mako> Riddell already has
[01:14] <dholbach> i reviewed 2-3 packages of him
[01:14] <ogra> i think so, dholbach reviewed some stuff afaik
[01:14] <Riddell> motaboy has my total support
[01:14] <\sh> kde people will get always a +1 
[01:15] <motaboy> sabdfl: Maybe in these days I'm quite busy with work, but I'm doing to make the possible contribution I can do.
[01:15] <\sh> only to have a good balance between kde and ogra ;)
[01:15] <mako> \sh: well, kde people who make meaningful contributuion to ubuntu, i hope :)
[01:15] <sabdfl> ok, +1 on the basis of Riddell's support
[01:15] <motaboy> sabdfl: to kde and ubuntu
[01:15] <jsgotangco> hmm i should update my kubuntu
[01:15] <mako> elmo: ?
[01:15] <sabdfl> elmo?
[01:15] <elmo> ack
[01:15] <motaboy> s/now/knows
[01:15] <mako> motaboy: gotta do the signed code of conduct dance :)
[01:15] <ogra> +1 here  only to have a good balance between kde and ogra ;)
[01:15] <mdke> motaboy, auguri
[01:16] <tseng> motaboy: working with your upstream is WONDERFUL.
[01:16] <mako> motaboy: thanks dude! now get some sleep
[01:16] <mako> welcome
[01:16] <tseng> motaboy: very related.
[01:16] <\sh> ogra: ahaha ;)
[01:16] <ogra> \sh, *g*
[01:16] <motaboy> thanks to you all! :D
[01:16] <\sh> welcome motaboy 
[01:16] <jsgotangco> motaboy: congrats
[01:16] <mdke> motaboy, do you have 20 seconds?
[01:16] <dholbach> welcome simone
[01:16] <mdke> quick idea
[01:16] <mako> that's it for members
[01:16] <ogra> yay motaboy 
[01:16] <motaboy> mdke: yes
[01:16] <sabdfl> next up!
[01:16] <mako> irc ops
[01:17] <mako> i think there are two issues here
[01:17] <mdke> motaboy, PM
[01:17] <sabdfl> happy to be given that, was given a nice tutorial on the details, happy to be of service
[01:17] <mako> one is that we need to delegate somebody to actually implement the big batch of ops on teh chanserv levels
[01:17] <dholbach> i apologize for leaving "early", but i have to get up early tomorrow - have a nice evening you all... see you
[01:17] <mako> sabdfl: yeah, we already voted to op you.. :)
[01:17] <\sh> mako: please remove me from the list to be a irc policeman for #ubuntu
[01:18] <Amaranth> damn internet
[01:18] <ivoks> :)
[01:18] <Nafallo> dholbach: take care :-)
[01:18] <mako> jdub: that's you i think
[01:18] <Amaranth> is the meeting over?
[01:18] <jsgotangco> oohh lag
[01:18] <\sh> cu dholbach 
[01:18] <tseng> Amaranth: approving irc ops.
[01:18] <mako> jdub: you own #ubuntu according to chanserv, can you help us get the list of people who we voted to op into the chanserv?
[01:18] <Amaranth> oh
[01:18] <mako> jdub: i can send you the url
[01:18] <Amaranth> is it too late to inject myself into the agenda? :)
[01:18] <mako> i don't see that part as requiring any action
[01:19] <mako> except to poke jdub and makes ure it happens
[01:19] <Seveas> Amaranth, we just passed the member stage
[01:19] <Amaranth> yeah, that's the part i meant
[01:19] <mako> so everyone, if you're on that list and the chanserv disagrees, poke jdub :)
[01:19] <tseng> Amaranth: at the end perhaps.
[01:19] <Amaranth> ok
[01:19] <mako> the next thing was two more suggestions for ops
[01:19] <tseng> Amaranth: speak up again then please.
[01:19] <jdub> mako: yeah, if you can get me a list (including nicks) after the meeting, i'll fix it up
[01:19] <jdub> mako: oh, nicks have to be registered too
[01:19] <mako> jdub: awesome
[01:20] <mako> jdub: ok, sure.. i suspect most are
[01:20] <mako> Seveas and Corey Burger were both suggested as additional #ubuntu ops
[01:20] <mako> both are members
[01:21] <mako> i know of their contributiosn through irc already and happy to trust them with ops
[01:21] <mako> (we do need more)
[01:21] <Amaranth> Seveas should be an op
[01:21] <Seveas> ...and show a lot of activity in #ubuntu :)
[01:21] <ogra> +1
[01:21] <jsgotangco> +1 on Corey Burger
[01:21] <sabdfl> fine by me, they have both been steady and valuable members
[01:21] <mako> Seveas: right, which is the badly needed thing
[01:21] <mdke> yeah corey / seveas rock
[01:21] <mako> elmo: any issues?
[01:21] <elmo> nope
[01:21] <jsgotangco> heh
[01:22] <Seveas> sabdfl, on a totally off-topic road: are you still interested in grid computing things, if so, poke me after the meeting
[01:22] <mako> ok.. the #kubuntu is owned by haggai
[01:22] <motaboy> Night All and thanks again!
[01:22] <Seveas> g'might motaboy 
[01:22] <sabdfl> Seveas: yes absolutely
[01:22] <ogra> night motaboy 
[01:22] <\sh> cu around motaboy 
[01:22] <Riddell> mako: it's owned by daniels as far as I remember
[01:22] <Amaranth> #kubuntu could use some op love, i've had people in #ubuntu tell me they don't want to go there because people are acting like jerks
[01:23] <mako> Riddell: according to chanserv, the contact is haggai
[01:23] <mdke> i have just thought of an irc related issue for #ubuntu-doc, the topic is locked down and the founder is no longer part of the team
[01:23] <Seveas> fooishbar hass access 30 in #kubuntu
[01:23] <mako> Riddell: can you sort that?
[01:23] <mako> Riddell: i'm happy delegating op distribution on that channel as you see fit to you and your team unless you want to go through us
[01:23] <tseng> mdke: can you try contacting him via email first?
[01:23] <Amaranth> mdke: talk to a staff member
[01:23] <mako> Riddell: what is average size
[01:23] <Amaranth> mdke: freenode staff, i mean
[01:23] <mdke> tseng, yeah i will do so
[01:23] <tseng> mdke: thanks.
[01:23] <tseng> freenode staff is a last resort.
[01:23] <Riddell> mako: usually about 80 on the channel
[01:23] <mdke> tseng, actually might be able to get hold of him in irc
[01:24] <jsgotangco> mdke: who?
[01:24] <tseng> mdke: k, im sure he will gladly hand it over.
[01:24] <mako> Riddell: alright.. big enough that ops would be good.. small enough that you can probaboly handle it
[01:24] <mdke> its chris haas
[01:24] <mako> Riddell: but it's up to you guys
[01:24] <Riddell> mako: ok, I'll sort it out with haggai and daniels
[01:25] <mako> Riddell: excellent :)
[01:25] <mako> sabdfl: sound reasonable?
[01:25] <mako> Riddell: then talk to uniq :)
[01:25] <mako> smurfix: you around?
[01:25] <sabdfl> mako: perfectly
[01:25] <smurfix> yep
[01:25] <Amaranth> bye
[01:25] <Seveas> g'night ivoks, sleep well
[01:25] <mako> so it sounds like your someone else was calling for a sort of LoCo HOWTO ?
[01:25] <mako> ivoks: night
[01:25] <Nafallo> ivoks: nightie :-P
[01:26] <lsuactiafner> mako : would alos like a loco howto
[01:26] <mdke> me too
[01:26] <mdke> good idea
[01:26] <smurfix> mako: simira, last meeting. I'll have to put some effort into that
[01:26] <mdke> there is a fair amount of information already tho
[01:26] <sabdfl> that's an excellent idea
[01:26] <mako> mdke: is that something the docteam could help with?
[01:27] <ogra> mdke, why did CHaas leave ?
[01:27] <mdke> mako, we are a little understaffed, but I personally will be pleased to help, and we can ask them
[01:27] <lsuactiafner> we are trying to spread open-source, if that information is easily available more ppl might join us
[01:27] <mdke> ogra, before my time I'm afraid, I believe he is a debian developer
[01:27] <mako> smurfix: do you know of any really well done loco's that might be able to help distill a little advice ?
[01:27] <smurfix> I was hoping that there'd be a miling list *soon* so that I could get a discussion among the loco people going on what works for them
[01:27] <ogra> mdke, yep, he's from debian mentors
[01:27] <mdke> portugal is quite good i think
[01:27] <Seveas> mako, french/spain/norwegian loco (treated last time) seem to be really good
[01:28] <smurfix> Basically most of the ones in the "official" list ;-)
[01:28] <mako> mdke, smurfix: would you be willing to start a wiki page and outline for brain dump and then contact those folksd
[01:28] <mdke> yeah
[01:28] <smurfix> already have a wiki page
[01:28] <mako> smurfix: wonderful :)
[01:28] <smurfix> it's a child of the agenda right now
[01:28] <jdub> smurfix: will do that straight away
[01:28] <smurfix> jdub: thanks
[01:28] <mdke> btw make sure to link the wiki page
[01:29] <mako> awesome!
[01:29] <smurfix> mdke: sure
[01:29] <mako> smurfix: was there more you wanted on this issue?
[01:29] <mdke> who will be involved with the mailing list?
[01:29] <mako> i guess that's the next item :)
[01:29] <smurfix> mdke: all loco contact people will be subscribed to it
[01:29] <mako> "other loco items"
[01:29] <mako> right, we'd mentioned this last time.. good idea :)
[01:30] <smurfix> mako: not that I know of, but then it's kindof late :-/
[01:30] <mdke> ohuh
[01:30] <mako> mdke: ?
[01:30] <mako> mdke: no dude, it's CONTACTS
[01:30] <mdke> yeah
[01:30] <mako> not leaders
[01:30] <sabdfl> absolutely - coordination
[01:30] <mako> they can be rotating contacts even
[01:30] <sabdfl> and we'll welcome multiple people from a loco to subscribe to it
[01:30] <jdub> smurfix: you'll get a mail soon, you just need to set the info/description and click the list over to public
[01:31] <smurfix> jdub: splendid
[01:31] <mdke> the distinction between contact/leader isn't wholly clear from the wiki pages
[01:31] <mdke> but i understand what you are getting at
[01:31] <mako> sabdfl: yes
[01:32] <sabdfl> mako: when we're done with the agenda, i want to gives folks a heads up on the docteam situation
[01:32] <mako> mdke: that's probably because we used to have leaders and then sort of just changed it.. there is a more fundemental rewrite that probably would be good but hasn't happened yet yet
[01:32] <sabdfl> give
[01:32] <mako> sabdfl: yes.. we're almost there
[01:32] <mako> smurfix: more loco stuff?
[01:32] <smurfix> mako: nope, not from me anyway
[01:33] <mako> from anybody else?
[01:33] <mako> loco stuff?
[01:33] <mdke> mako, as i understand it there are both contacts and leaders now
[01:33] <mdke> right?
[01:33] <mako> mdke: ehh.. that's a longer discussion :)
[01:33] <mdke> ok
[01:33] <mako> mdke: the teams have some autonomy.. and the change wasn't retroactive
[01:33] <smurfix> mdke: basically, contacts are required, but whether a team has a leader or not is their decision
[01:34] <mako> alright, sabdfl the floor
[01:34] <Amaranth> ?
[01:34] <mako> it's any other business time
[01:34] <mako> and sabdfl has other business
[01:34] <mako> about the doc team
[01:34] <sabdfl> ok, just a heads up for the CC members and the community
[01:35] <sabdfl> the doc team has done some fantastic work, and has also struggled a little bit for direction and leadership
[01:35] <sabdfl> i've been watching quietly to see how things would unfold
[01:35] <sabdfl> recently they seem to be more unwinding than unfolding, so i think we should ask them to come to the CC formally
[01:35] <mdke> *grins*
[01:35] <sabdfl> let's try put a plan in place which gives them the direction and authority to make decisions that i think they need
[01:36] <mdke> sabdfl, i had a good chat with jdub about this today
[01:36] <sabdfl> but also makes them aware of the fact that they need to work within a framework, especially if they want stuff running on core servers
[01:36] <tseng> does anyone have a summary of the issue we are trying to resolve?
[01:36] <mdke> i can try
[01:36] <sabdfl> i was especially concerned about the "people with email addresses @ubuntu.com" because every member is entitled to an email address @ubuntu.com (not just canonical folks)
[01:37] <sabdfl> elmo is looking guilty across my dining room table at this moment :-)
[01:37] <mdke> is that related to docteam?
[01:37] <sabdfl> nonetheless, this is a team effort, and the doc team is very much part of that team
[01:37] <sabdfl> tseng: formats, structures, goals, tools
[01:38] <tseng> sabdfl: so problems coming to a concensus?
[01:38] <sabdfl> i don't want to prejudge the issue, i'd like them to bring it to the CC
[01:38] <sabdfl> tseng: more problems getting ideas agreed on and executed
[01:38] <tseng> sure.
[01:38] <mdke> i think that is slightly harsh
[01:38] <jsgotangco> sabdfl: at the moment, one of our top gun just quit
[01:38] <mako> tseng: there was a mini flame war about yelp that mark is probably alluded
[01:38] <sabdfl> in particular, there have been some cases where they decided to use a tool, then ran into difficulty getting that tool setup on core servers
[01:38] <mdke> the problem has been a lack of direction in general
[01:38] <sabdfl> we can't easily support PHP stuff in our core server set, for security reasons, etc
[01:39] <Seveas> wouldn't it be a good idea to have a docteam meeting to create directions for the near future?
[01:39] <jsgotangco> we'll just have to do what we currently have and create  a roadmap for future releases
[01:39] <tseng> what about on the virtual servers?
[01:39] <sabdfl> since it is entirely a volunteer team, i don't feel that we can instruct them, only try to cooperate
[01:39] <tseng> if something is already developed.
[01:39] <jsgotangco> Seveas: we plan to hold a meeting this weekend or next
[01:39] <sabdfl> and find a path that will give them excellent justice
[01:39] <sabdfl> so to speak
[01:39] <mako> jsgotangco: that sounds great
[01:40] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: good idea
[01:40] <sabdfl> to which i'd like to invite the CC members
[01:40] <jsgotangco> at the moment, we now only have 3 active contributors to svn
[01:40] <jsgotangco> that is a problem
[01:40] <Seveas> jsgotangco, ah nice, please announce it in the topic here and at ubuntu-{doc,devel}@lists
[01:40] <mako> sabdfl: i agree completely about the volunteer thing
[01:40] <jsgotangco> Seveas: yes, i'll cross post
[01:40] <mdke> i slightly disagree, we need instruction to some extent
[01:40] <mako> sabdfl: i think we need to take a much bigger role in sitting down with them to set clear goals
[01:40] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: can i ask you, sean wheller and others to draft up a wiki page listing the issues, as well as your preferred team plan, irrespective of issues in the past with @ubuntu.com email addresses :-)
[01:40] <mako> sabdfl: and then working with them through the entire process
[01:40] <mdke> because otherwise what happens is, we develop our own methodology and this then gets shot down
[01:41] <jsgotangco> sabdfl: sean wheller has just quit
[01:41] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: let's see if he's at least help us frame this plan, he's got a good handle on the discussion
[01:41] <mako> sabdfl: the docteam is repeatedly complaining that they an island, or underappreciated, or have a strained relationship with the rest of the project
[01:41] <Seveas> jsgotangco, me, nalioth probably and probably more of the soon-to-be newbie-help squad can assist too
[01:42] <sabdfl> mako: the CC is the right place for them to start building that bridge and getting the support they need
[01:42] <jsgotangco> i'll email sean and pick up the pieces of past conversations, its all there
[01:42] <mako> sabdfl: i agree.. :)
[01:42] <sabdfl> they've never interacted with us as a group
[01:42] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: let's try to heal any wounds and make a real effort to get agreement on this
[01:42] <mdke> that would be appreciated
[01:42] <mdke> :)
[01:42] <sabdfl> i read the most recent thread, and saw lots of CAN! CANNOT! CAN! CANNOT! type discussions
[01:42] <jsgotangco> heh
[01:42] <mako> yes
[01:42] <sabdfl> and my feeling is that folks who want to do the work should be picking the tools
[01:43] <sabdfl> but again, let's not prejudge the issue
[01:43] <mdke> whoa
[01:43] <mdke> that's not the message that has come down to us
[01:43] <sabdfl> mdke: in what way?
[01:44] <mdke> lots of tools/methodologies have been rejected
[01:44] <mdke> often rightly
[01:44] <sabdfl> the ubuntu project is getting big enough that there are going to be conflicting ideas
[01:44] <sabdfl> so teams need to do a bit of work to win other parts of the project over to their side
[01:45] <mdke> well we try
[01:45] <mako> my sense is that the docteam is in a strange power situation
[01:45] <sabdfl> if you want to use tools, but the sysadmins are not comfortable running them on the core network, we have a whole suite of virtual servers available for LoCo teams that can be commandeered
[01:45] <mdke> but my personal view is that as far as methodology is concerned, direction from up top would work well
[01:45] <tseng> i suggested that above :P
[01:46] <tseng> i think it would be very easy to point a subdomain at a virtual server and enable any tools they need in a sandbox.
[01:46] <mdke> mako, can you explain?
[01:46] <tseng> w/o making elmo scream
[01:46] <mako> i've sense this recurring theme of the docteam not being part of the core ubuntu community and running into disagreement when dealing with "the project" or "canonical"
[01:46] <sabdfl> more importantly, rather than getting into a fight with one or two people, we need to help the doc team formulate their plans and communicate them clearly so we can help them make it happen
[01:47] <mdke> sabdfl, ++
[01:47] <sabdfl> mako: partly, i think that's because there's not been a full time person on the team
[01:47] <sabdfl> not to lead, but just to be a bridge to other people in other parts of the project
[01:47] <Seveas> ++ from me too, i really look forward to the docteam meeting
[01:47] <mako> "we do this work, create a methodology, they say no" .. i'm not sure that's an very accurate or even useful narrative.. but it's one i've heard in the last couple weeks on that list
[01:47] <mdke> the loss of enrico was a big one
[01:47] <mako> mdke: yes
[01:47] <jsgotangco> very
[01:47] <sabdfl> i'm happy for one of the canonical guys to take a more regular role in working with the docteam
[01:47] <sabdfl> anyhow
[01:48] <sabdfl> let's not have the meeting now
[01:48] <mako> sabdfl: yes
[01:48] <mdke> sabdfl, we would be VERY happy :)
[01:48] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: you're on the doc team, right?
[01:48] <jsgotangco> at the moment, i will handle the whip
[01:48] <mdke> i was delighted when henrik started getting involved
[01:48] <jsgotangco> sabdfl: i handle the whip for now
[01:48] <mako> jsgotangco: thanks ;)
[01:48] <mako> mdke: me too
[01:48] <sabdfl> could you bring everyone together? try to get sean and jdub and everyone else who's been part of the discussion
[01:48] <mdke> he has lots of great ideas
[01:48] <mako> sabdfl: is right.. htis is another meeting
[01:48] <mako> i want to be there too
[01:48] <sabdfl> ask them to do a wiki page which states - even handedly - the points that have been discussed
[01:49] <mako> i can even help organize it if you want
[01:49] <jsgotangco> sabdfl: will do and send the email by today
[01:49] <sabdfl> let it state both sides where there are divergent views
[01:49] <mako> jsgotangco: excellent
[01:49] <mdke> cool
[01:49] <sabdfl> and then let's get the CC to try and help give it direction
[01:49] <smurfix> I can help with virtual server stuff if necessary
[01:49] <mako> smurfix: excellent!
[01:49] <jsgotangco> great
[01:49] <mako> winner
[01:49] <mako> alright
[01:49] <sabdfl> ok, thanks all
[01:49] <mako> enough on that?
[01:49] <mako> ANY OTHE BUSINESS
[01:49] <mako> ?
[01:49] <sabdfl> mako: well done
[01:49] <smurfix> Any progress on the Linode side, by the way?
[01:49] <mdke> thanks mako
[01:49] <tseng> mako: yes, Amaranth 
[01:50] <jsgotangco> sabdfl: thanks
[01:50] <jsgotangco> mako: thanks
[01:50] <tseng> he missed the members section
[01:50] <mako> smurfix: i will kick them
[01:50] <Seveas> mako, yes, the list of members-that-need-to-show-up seems to be groing
[01:50] <mako> tseng: i'll give him a members file if that's ok
[01:50] <smurfix> mako: PLease do that, it starts getting urgent
[01:50] <tseng> oh nice
[01:50] <mako> tseng: it's a text file but it's, uh, er, canonical (!)
[01:50] <Seveas> isn't it an idea to throw out people that don't show up multiple times?
[01:50] <smurfix> more so if we set up one for the doc people
[01:50] <nalioth> his puter doesnt want him to speak
[01:50] <tseng> mako: i mean he was on the list
[01:50] <mako> dude, 
[01:51] <mako> picked a bad time to leave
[01:51] <tseng> exactly.
[01:51] <mako> any other business
[01:51] <mako> ?
[01:51] <tseng> not anymore :P
[01:51] <mako> tseng: bad timing
[01:51] <mdke> he was up for ops in #ubuntu right?
[01:51] <mako> next meeting will be at 12UTC? in two weeks?
[01:51] <mako> mdke: we can handle that later
[01:51] <mako> any objections?
[01:51] <mako> alright.. that's the time
[01:51] <jsgotangco> hmm
[01:51] <Seveas> make, are you ignoring me?
[01:51] <Seveas> mako*
[01:51] <mako> Seveas: no.. go ahead
[01:52] <Seveas> mako, yes, the list of members-that-need-to-show-up seems to be growing
[01:52] <Seveas> isn't it an idea to throw out people that don't show up multiple times?
[01:52] <mako> Seveas: we move them to the bottom
[01:52] <Seveas> (admitted, the list is still small now :))
[01:52] <mako> Seveas: if they haven't showed up.. and if they still aren't there after some weeks, we toss em
[01:52] <mako> Seveas: i might toss hiweed this week
[01:52] <mako> he's welcome to come back of course
[01:52] <Seveas> you can toss rave too
[01:52] <tseng> i saw hiweed a total of once.
[01:52] <mako> Seveas: was that it?
[01:52] <Seveas> yes :)
[01:52] <mako> nobody objected to my proposed time.. 
[01:53] <ogra> mako, MatinEricRacine didn show up since months
[01:53] <mdke> good time
[01:53] <Seveas> and thanks for the 12am :D
[01:53] <mako> my turn to get up at 6am :)
[01:53] <mdke> aww
[01:53] <\sh> ok..time to sleep for me now..this morning at 9am (7am utc) digital tv is waiting for me
[01:53] <mako> maybe earlier :)
[01:53] <nalioth> mako: by testimonials do you mean on the wiki or seveas in here tellin what a pita i am?
[01:53] <mako> nalioth: we'll talk later :)
[01:53] <smurfix> same here  ... smurfix => bed. :-/
[01:53] <mako> let me.. END THE MEETING
[01:53] <mako> BANG
[01:53] <nalioth> ok
[01:53] <jsgotangco> BANG
[01:53] <mdke> good luck Seveas 
[01:53] <mako> alright thanks everyone!
[01:53] <sabdfl> mako: we can use the LP stuff for membreship from next time onwards
[01:53] <\sh> good night...thx for the meeting...mako well done :)
[01:53] <jsgotangco> Seveas: good luck
[01:53] <mako> sabdfl: *great*
[01:53] <sabdfl> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/ubuntumembers
[01:54] <mako> sabdfl: is it ready already?
[01:54] <sabdfl> folks, sign up there
[01:54] <Nafallo> my rabbit tries to eat my carpet. is the meeting over? ;-)
[01:54] <smurfix> cool
[01:54] <jsgotangco> will do
[01:54] <mdke> supercool
[01:54] <mako> sabdfl: will require rewriting some of the process stuff
[01:54] <sabdfl> it's nonobvious how to use it, so bonus points for those who figure it out :-)
[01:54] <sabdfl> i'll work on the UI over the coming weeks
[01:54] <mako> sabdfl: nice :)
[01:54] <ogra> Nafallo, does it do that normally if meetings are over ? 
[01:54] <sabdfl> mako: it will just help us keep the list of who's applied, and who's been approved, and who's declined for now
[01:54] <mdke> will be cool when signed CoC capability is back in launchpad
[01:54] <mako> sabdfl: cool
[01:55] <Nafallo> ogra: naah, just me that doesn't wanna leave a meeting :-)
[01:55] <sabdfl> when we have CoC stuff we can make some things automatic
[01:55] <mako> alright.. my dinner is well cold by now :)
[01:55] <sabdfl> er... well done dennis :-)
[01:55] <sabdfl> night all
[01:55] <mdke> night
[01:55] <mako> good night! :)
[01:55] <Seveas> thnx sabdfl :)
[01:55] <ogra> night sabdfl 
[01:55] <mgalvin> good nigh all
[01:55] <tseng> bye sabdfl 
[01:56] <Seveas> 'night all 
[01:56] <jsgotangco> night
[02:03] <sabdfl> night all
[02:09] <nalioth> later y'all
[02:10] <xuzo> night all