[12:17] <mako> so. uh.. where did the faqs go
[12:24] <mdke> mako, the faqs?
[12:24] <mako> yeah. the ones that used to be in the website
[12:24] <mdke> they were transferred to the wiki
[12:24] <mdke> the howtos right?
[12:24] <mako> no, the FAQs
[12:25] <mako> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq
[12:25] <mdke> mako, how long has it been like that?
[12:25] <mako> i just noticed it
[12:25] <mako> maybe 2-3 days
[12:25] <mdke> hmm
[12:25] <mako> probably 2 max
[12:25] <mdke> no idea
[12:25] <mako> that's quite bad
[12:25] <mdke> mako, henrik will know
[12:26] <mdke> none of us have write access to the website, but he will know I'm sure
[12:26] <mako> i just looked at webmaster and info mail and the weekend worth of errors for the shipit FAQ alone is pretty massive
[12:26] <mdke> oh dear
[12:26] <mako> so, i'm the first to notice
[12:26] <mdke> guess so
[12:27] <mdke> haven't seen anything about it on our list
[12:27] <mako> neither have i
[12:55] <mdke> mako, well if there is anything we can do to help, let us know :)
[08:48] <jsgotangco> shalom
[09:43] <jsgotangco> judax: nice patches
[09:43] <jsgotangco> (sorry im just applying them now)
[09:45] <jsgotangco> (i had to clean up the document as well)
[10:01] <jsgotangco> judax: also the screenshots are great, but if I include them it'll make the book inconsistent
[10:02] <jsgotangco> judax: can you use the default theme instead
[10:06] <jsgotangco> for now i'll remove all references to the screenshots, hope you understand
[10:06] <jsgotangco> (i really need a separate box to do this grrr)
[10:57] <jsgotangco> sivang, hey
[10:58] <sivang> jsgotangco: hey
[11:01] <jsgotangco> hows it going
[11:11] <Seveas> Hi guys, I've been looking at the wiki and it's quite messy at some spots. I've already done heaps of reparenting to clean that up a bit. Is it ok to merge howto's delete superseded ones and restructure some things?
[11:14] <jsgotangco> feel free to do it but make sure its ok with the original author or won't mess up the overall wiki structure
[12:27] <jsgotangco> ok later guys
[12:43] <Seveas> tweedledee
[12:43] <Seveas> and the wiki restructuring continues :)
[02:16] <mdke> hi Seveas 
[02:16] <mdke> best not to bother
[02:16] <mdke> the parenting system does not have long to live
[02:18] <mdke> tomorrow is the wiki transfer
[02:28] <mdke> damn connection
[02:28] <mdke> hi Seveas 
[02:28] <mdke> you there?
[02:33] <mdke> good idea with ObsoletePages
[02:53] <Seveas> hi
[02:53] <Seveas> yeah i know
[02:54] <Seveas> am fixing up the UserDocumentation section now
[02:54] <Seveas> Lots of obsolete stuff there
[02:54] <Seveas> mdke, what will replace the parenting system?
[02:54] <mdke> nothing
[02:54] <Seveas> hmm
[02:55] <Seveas> so all pages will become singletons and have to be re-linked?
[02:55] <mdke> well many pages are linked already
[02:55] <Seveas> or will all parents initially have links to their children?
[02:55] <mdke> the links to children will be copied into talkpages of the main page
[02:55] <mdke> so that they can be inserted if necessary
[02:56] <Seveas> ok
[02:56] <Seveas> then i will continue fixing up parenting
[02:56] <mdke> ok
[02:56] <Seveas> and as of tomorrow remove/edit these talkpage links :)
[02:56] <mdke> cool thanks for your help
[02:56] <Seveas> no prob
[02:57] <Seveas> been meaning to to this a long time already
[02:57] <mdke> by the way, before deleting pages, make sure they don't have any backlinks
[02:57] <Seveas> i have 3 draft wikipages in my head too that will be awesome :)
[02:57] <mdke> nice
[02:57] <Seveas> What time does the transition start?
[02:58] <mdke> 10am
[02:58] <mdke> BST
[02:59] <Seveas> BST?
[02:59] <Seveas> Brazil?
[02:59] <mdke> so thats 9 UTC
[02:59] <Seveas> ah ok
[02:59] <mdke> *grins*
[02:59] <mdke> BST = british summer time
[02:59] <Seveas> ah :)
[02:59] <Seveas> Amsterdam
[02:59] <mdke> cool
[03:06] <Seveas> mdke, will th new wiki be wiki.u.c or www.u.o/wiki?
[03:07] <mdke> certainly the former, and probably the latter i guess
[03:19] <Seveas> the funny thing is: FrontPage is now a singleton :)
[03:19] <mdke> thats the way it should be
[03:20] <Seveas> indeed
[03:20] <Seveas> but it never was
[03:21] <Seveas> since people kept ading subtopics there
[03:21] <mdke> well we keep moving em away
[03:21] <mdke> but on the new wiki that won't happen
[03:21] <mdke> because you'll have to make a link in order to create a page
[03:22] <Seveas> :)
[03:22] <Seveas> that's the way it should be
[03:23] <Seveas> over the next days i'll keep restructuting things
[03:23] <Seveas> restructuring*
[03:23] <mdke> thats nice of you
[03:23] <Seveas> does the new wiki also have a nice table of contents mechanism?
[03:24] <mdke> that requires a plugin, but probably yes
[03:24] <mdke> anchor links should be possible
[03:25] <mdke> Seveas, or were you talking about a different sort of table of contents?
[03:26] <Seveas> well, something like www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage/contents
[03:27] <Seveas> an easy way to see all pages in a parent-child hierarchy
[03:27] <mdke> a
[03:27] <mdke> h
[03:27] <mdke> no the new wiki won't have that
[03:27] <mdke> given that the parent-child hierarchy won't exist
[03:28] <Seveas> hmm, figures
[03:28] <Seveas> but there will be an AllPages link?
[03:28] <mdke> yes
[03:28] <mdke> check out http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:29] <Seveas> i know that one :)
[03:29] <mdke> TitleIndex for example
[03:30] <mdke> WordIndex too
[03:30] <Seveas> nice
[03:30] <Seveas> that'll help bringing the new wiki in shape
[03:30] <mdke> and the others at SiteNavigation
[03:32] <mdke> Seveas, maybe you can also help with a project that we will try to develop soon
[03:32] <mdke> basically we want to flag up the wiki pages that are in a decent enough state for documentation
[03:33] <Seveas> hmm, sounds like a plan
[03:33] <Seveas> by the way the documentation on u.org is completely non-existent
[03:33] <mdke> yes
[03:33] <Seveas> mdke, as an extension to moinmoin oslt?
[03:34] <mdke> anyway, we will have a page to suggest which pages are nearly ready, and then the documentation team will make locked copies of them, and then convert them to docbook format to be published
[03:34] <mdke> Seveas, what is that?
[03:35] <SquishyWaffle> Does anyone know the best way to put a topic on the agenda for the next CC meeting?
[03:36] <Seveas> i mean this flagging system
[03:36] <Seveas> will that be an extension to the wiki?
[03:36] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, yeah, add it to the agenda :p
[03:36] <mdke> Seveas, no
[03:36] <Seveas> SquishyWaffle, add it to the agenda page :)
[03:36] <SquishyWaffle> You don't have to ask permission to do so first?
[03:36] <Seveas> mdke, so what are the plans than?
[03:37] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, nope
[03:37] <mdke> Seveas, what I said
[03:37] <Seveas> yeah ok, but how are you planning to implement it?
[03:37] <mdke> we'll have a locked section in which to copy pages which are ready/nearly ready
[03:38] <Seveas> ah ok
[03:38] <mdke> then we'll convert them to docbook and put them in our archive
[03:38] <Seveas> nice
[03:38] <Seveas> do you have a good wiki2docbook utility already?
[03:38] <mdke> Seveas, so if you come across any nice documentation in your travels, make a mental note
[03:38] <Seveas> hehe, ok
[03:39] <mdke> Seveas, mvirkkil is working on one, otherwise we will do it by hand
[03:39] <Seveas> i've stopped reparenting now
[03:39] <Seveas> todo: the documentation
[03:39] <Seveas> and all with releases as parent
[03:39] <Seveas> but i think it's better to do that on the new wiki
[03:40] <mdke> yeah
[03:40] <mdke> thanks for your work
[03:40] <Seveas> but all userpages now have UserPages as parent and no children
[03:40] <Seveas> an more stupidities like that are solved :)
[03:41] <SquishyWaffle> Does anyone see my reasoning in this post or am I completely off-based?: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40056
[03:42] <mdke> i agree 100%
[03:43] <mdke> i feel quite strongly about that stuff so I'm gonna post too
[03:44] <Seveas> i quite hate them :)
[03:44] <SquishyWaffle> Well kassetra (who is now in this room) has basically told me to keep my mouth shut about it because they're not going to change it. I still disagree quite strongly and am thinking of putting it up for discussion in the next CC meeting.
[03:45] <SquishyWaffle> Some very well ran support forums use a positive rep system and I think used positively that we might see some benefit from a system such as this.
[03:45] <SquishyWaffle> IE: I help a new Linux user and they give me positive rep
[03:47] <mdke> i hate heirarchy
[03:47] <mdke> its dangerous and is contrary to the Ubuntu code of conduct in my opinion
[03:47] <mdke> people should not be encouraged to feel better than others
[03:47] <Seveas> indeed
[03:47] <SquishyWaffle> Yeah, it just seems like they added the feature just to give the forum another gadget
[03:48] <mdke> the forum is full of that stuff
[03:48] <Seveas> talking about ubuntu-meeting, can you have a look at www.ubuntulinux.nl/time and give your opinion
[03:48] <mdke> a friend of mine suddenly found himself called "Ubuntu Community Developer" without having been informed of it
[03:48] <mdke> he was put out
[03:48] <Seveas> lol
[03:48] <mdke> because he believes in the spirit of Ubuntu
[03:49] <jjesse> i've never enjoyed the forum to be honest, ive found more support in one of the channel or the wiki or the docs
[03:50] <Seveas> forums attract kiddies and people that (have) never grow(n) up, that makes me hate them even though there are good things going on in forums
[03:50] <mdke> its a good place for support
[03:50] <SquishyWaffle> Well further pressing the question, is it in the moderator's rights to tell me to stop replying to that thread? Can they just tell people to be quiet like that despite some people agreeing with him that there is a problem?
[03:50] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, again you are right
[03:50] <Seveas> SquishyWaffle, no, that's definitely not in their rights
[03:51] <mdke> freedom of expression is important, especially since you are not doing anyone harm
[03:51] <Seveas> moderators also should keep the CoC in mind
[03:51] <SquishyWaffle> That was basically what I responded with (via Private Message) but I didn't know if I was overstepping my bounds or if she was overstepping hers.
[03:52] <jjesse> is the forum an offically supported ubuntu project or run on the side?
[03:52] <mdke> not yet
[03:52] <SquishyWaffle> It says they are bound by the Code of Conduct though in Forum FAQ
[03:52] <mdke> a bit of both i suppose
[03:54] <SquishyWaffle> so I guess I should just put a description of the problem on the CC agenda and show up for the discussion?
[03:54] <Seveas> SquishyWaffle, indeed
[03:54] <mdke> yeah
[03:54] <mdke> i think it is possible to argue that its within the CC jurisdiction
[03:54] <mdke> i'll get your back
[03:55] <SquishyWaffle> Ok, thanks for the help and advice. I'm not trying to cause trouble but I see this as becoming problematic.
[03:55] <Seveas> i agree on that
[03:55] <mdke> my views go even further than yours
[03:55] <mdke> i don't even like the positive feedback
[03:56] <SquishyWaffle> Would this go under 'Any other business'?
[03:56] <Seveas> yes
[03:57] <mdke> i've posted
[03:57] <SquishyWaffle> ok, I'll get this stuff outlined
[03:57] <mdke> i agree with the post by sniffer
[03:57] <mdke> "And i really hate hierarchy's stuff....
[03:57] <mdke> that's not the open source spirit...."
[03:57] <SquishyWaffle> heh, Super Duper Moderator
[03:58] <SquishyWaffle> and yeah, I like the feeling of equality and working towards a mutual goal without feeling inferior to others in stature
[04:00] <mdke> yeah
[04:01] <mdke> it is part of the spirit that founded Ubuntu
[04:01] <mdke> but that spirit is getting lost
[04:08] <SquishyWaffle> I'm going to use your quote in the wiki entry, mdke, that was very well suited for it
[04:12] <mdke> ok np
[04:12] <mdke> its from the code of conduct
[04:16] <SquishyWaffle> seems like the higher-ups are all for it, you just got a reply
[04:16] <Seveas> http://www.ubuntulinux.nl/time?view=docteam <-- woohoo, my auto-scaling works
[04:16] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, yeah saw it
[04:16] <Seveas> (sorry, just had to tell someone :))
[04:17] <mdke> ooh that guy is a "Contributor"
[04:17] <mdke> I WANT A UBUNTU DOCUMENTATION TEAM LABEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[04:18] <Seveas> wannabee-forum-god*
[04:18] <mdke> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[04:18] <mdke> I can't believe people are labelled if they give money
[04:19] <mdke> that sucks SO BAD
[04:19] <Seveas> yeah
[04:19] <Seveas> muha
[04:19] <mdke> eat my euro cent
[04:21] <SquishyWaffle> this wiki page will probably be neutered once I post it
[04:21] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, nah
[04:22] <SquishyWaffle> I'll make a copy of what I post, feel free to add on to it in a few minutes when I post since you have a different spin on things than I do
[04:22] <SquishyWaffle> I will briefly outline your position so you can expand on it, but you word it better than I do
[04:27] <mdke> k
[04:27] <SquishyWaffle> all yours, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForumRepSystem
[04:27] <SquishyWaffle> maybe we should have a section at the bottom where people can "sign" in agreement?
[04:27] <mdke> the problem is
[04:28] <mdke> it is a moot point whether this question is within CC jurisdiction
[04:29] <SquishyWaffle> The forums bear the name of Ubuntu and say they are bound by the CoC, they are also the most visible and well traveled of our support/interaction mechanisms.
[04:29] <mdke> yeah
[04:29] <mdke> i know
[04:29] <mdke> but in the end it is a private project
[04:39] <SquishyWaffle> I'm thinking that since the moderators and admins are generally full Ubuntu members, they are therefor subject to the CoC by association also.
[04:40] <mdke> yes
[04:41] <mdke> i suppose to some extent the concept of Ubuntu Members also implies Heirarchy
[04:41] <SquishyWaffle> Well that may be why the whole @ubuntu.com email address thing is so hot
[04:44] <SquishyWaffle> now look at that reversal of opinion :)
[04:56] <mdke> hmm
[05:06] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, my "community developer" friend agrees with you
[05:06] <mdke> i asked him to post
[05:07] <SquishyWaffle> Ok, thanks. It's good to hear from some others who are involved with development
[05:09] <mdke> he's not
[05:09] <mdke> that's why he was a bit put out when he received the title
[05:09] <SquishyWaffle> ahh, heh
[05:10] <mdke> he made a program which became popular on the forum
[05:10] <mdke> but its wholly unofficial
[05:10] <SquishyWaffle> The menu editor?
[05:10] <mdke> *grins*
[05:10] <mdke> no
[05:10] <mdke> the boot up manager thing
[05:11] <mdke> the menu editor guy is pretty involved with #ubuntu-devel
[05:11] <SquishyWaffle> I do remember seeing the boot manager project
[05:16] <SquishyWaffle> did you want to make any changes to that wiki page?
[05:19] <mdke> not right now
[06:01] <SquishyWaffle> rhu rho, we're going to hear from ubuntu-geek shortly :)
[06:27] <jdodson> whats up doc team.
[06:27] <jdodson> this is jdodson from the forums.  hope your day is going well.
[06:27] <jdodson> anyone around to chat with?
[06:27] <froud> chat
[06:28] <jdodson> indeed.
[06:28] <froud> go ahead
[06:28] <jdodson> ha!  ok i will.
[06:28] <froud> what's up
[06:28] <jdodson> i attended linux fest northwest a bit ago.
[06:28] <jdodson> anyways, i attended a lecture by corey and it was pretty good.
[06:29] <jdodson> he said some stuff i was not aware of, so mad props to corey.
[06:29] <froud> cool good to here you enjoyed it
[06:29] <jdodson> though, indeed i was dismayed a bit.
[06:29] <froud> oh, how so
[06:29] <jdodson> it seems in coreys lecture he seemed to dislike the forums.  now i guess thats fine, given that not everyone has to like them.
[06:29] <jdodson> we dont force anyone to use them or anything.
[06:29] <froud> ok
[06:30] <jdodson> and them it seems from his posts to the mail list, he seems to rather paint us in a negative light.
[06:30] <froud> whose us
[06:30] <jdodson> the forums in entirety.
[06:30] <froud> ok
[06:31] <froud> he is entitled his point of view (dunno what that is)
[06:31] <froud> its just his opinion
[06:31] <jdodson> agreed.
[06:31] <froud> ok
[06:32] <jdodson> hold a sec, snagging something.
[06:34] <jdodson> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34054&highlight=noise
[06:34] <jdodson> i know communication is a two way road.  sometimes words are misunderstood.
[06:35] <jdodson> it seems to me that there is a chasm between the forums and the doc-team.
[06:35] <froud> that's it?
[06:35] <froud> Have to taken it up with Corey yet?
[06:35] <froud> he is actually a lovable puppy once you get to know him better
[06:35] <jdodson> i know, i found him to be a nice guy too.
[06:35] <jdodson> however, as of late it seems, from reading some IRC logs from here, that you more doc-team members might have problems with the forums.
[06:36] <jdodson> i am here to hold out an olive branch, i want to talk it over some.
[06:36] <jdodson> he is in the chat room now, i imagine he is away though.
[06:37] <jdodson> the forums are a collection of users both experienced and not, and they write things and like to help people.  sometimes that looks great, as in the advice is credible, sometimes it is not.
[06:37] <froud> or just watching
[06:37] <jdodson> i can understand why the doc-team might be at odds with that.
[06:37] <jdodson> froud: i understand.
[06:37] <froud> I am not for or against here
[06:37] <jdodson> froud: thats cool.
[06:38] <froud> though I can highlight some problems
[06:38] <jdodson> thats fine.
[06:38] <froud> perhaps you can bring solutions
[06:38] <jdodson> someone from the doc team put it up to talk about some of our disagreements in the next community council meeting, i think that is a good idea.
[06:38] <jdodson> i think if everyone is together, we can all do the problem/solution bit.
[06:38] <froud> one of the main problems in general is a fragmentation of information
[06:39] <jdodson> i heard corey say that when we talked in person.  to be honest i am not sure how we can deal with that, given the nature of forums.
[06:39] <froud> the more fragmentation that happens the harder it is for users to find info and know it to be corect
[06:39] <jdodson> i understand.
[06:39] <froud> as a result
[06:40] <froud> a user reads someting
[06:40] <froud> and does it
[06:40] <froud> all breaks
[06:40] <jdodson> i really have not heard of that happening too often, however i imagine it has.
[06:40] <froud> and so somebody on support must fix it
[06:40] <froud> too much of this and people get frustrated
[06:41] <SquishyWaffle> jdodson: I'm probably to blame here for starting this one, but as I said, the intent is not negative.
[06:41] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: i understand what you are trying to do, really.
[06:41] <SquishyWaffle> This was made progressively worse when I was contacted by kassetra, who told me to keep my opinion to myself (worded nicely of course).
[06:42] <jdodson> Right, I don't want to address that issue specifically, I just wanted to say "hey guys lets be friends:)
[06:42] <jdodson> in a barney sort of way.
[06:42] <SquishyWaffle> I'm perfectly fine with that, I like the community that has grown on the forums, which is why I'm upset.
[06:42] <jdodson> lame, i know, but we are on the same team.  i love ubuntu and want it to take over the world.
[06:42] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ok.  
[06:43] <Burgundavia> hello, just read the scrollback
[06:43] <jdodson> It seems though, like you mentioned in you post on the forums, that this issue "the negative rep thing" can be interpreted different ways when we think of the COC.
[06:43] <SquishyWaffle> I also recognize that you guys most definitely have the final say in things, but I just get the impression that things have been decided before we even started to discuss it and therefore the responses amount to "It's staying how it is" with no compromise or acknowledgement.
[06:43] <froud> jdodson: I think everyone is very passionate, maybe even a bit too religious.
[06:43] <jdodson> I think Kassetra definatley has the COC in mind when she posts.
[06:44] <froud> Burgundavia: hi
[06:44] <jdodson> froud: I would agree wholehartedly.
[06:44] <jdodson> Burgundavia: Hey.
[06:45] <Burgundavia> to clarify, I don't dislike the forums
[06:45] <jdodson> So if we can interpret the COC in different ways, then there is room for disagreement.  It seems that since ubuntu-geek pays the server bills then he has the last say, especially when the issue is not so black and white.
[06:45] <Burgundavia> the primary issue is lack of communication
[06:45] <jdodson> Burgundavia: Cool, I guess it seemed to some of us you did, that is cool to know, thanks.
[06:45] <Burgundavia> jdodson, I think the community council would be the last person to say
[06:45] <jdodson> Burgundavia: That is why I am here:)
[06:46] <jdodson> Burgundavia: I think the CC meeting will be a good thing.
[06:46] <SquishyWaffle> The doc team vs. forum thing is blown out of proportion, it doesn't really exist. People bicker and complain, it happens. But we all appreciate and understand the value of the forums and the role they play.
[06:46] <Burgundavia> I have been doing a lot of work in the breezy forum, trying to communicate what is going to happen and to make people file bugs
[06:46] <SquishyWaffle> The latest bickering is over an isolated issue.
[06:46] <SquishyWaffle> The "wannabe forum god" remarks were in response to me asking what to do after being PM'd by kassetra.
[06:47] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ok, thats fair.
[06:47] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I can understand why you make those comments, however, they do not add to community cohesion.  We can all say what we will, that does not mean it is interpreted the way we mean.
[06:48] <SquishyWaffle> I did not make those remarks
[06:49] <jdodson> SqushyWaffle: Oh, well whoever did:)
[06:49] <jdodson> I guess I mean, whoever made them, it doesnt help things.
[06:49] <SquishyWaffle> As I've said, I am looking at this, sitting in front of my computer completely calm and have been. Discussion is perfectly possible without anger, which is why I've pressed the issue.
[06:50] <SquishyWaffle> The moderators seem eager to get rid of the thread for "getting out of control" but what i see is a calm discussion looking for answers and opinions.
[06:51] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: We our stance is that we think we should keep the system.  It seems that pressing the issue is what some feel is the problem.
[06:51] <jdodson> froud: HA!  We could have re-written the kernel 80 times over.
[06:51] <SquishyWaffle> jdodson: Your stance has been made pretty clear but the issue at hand is that there exists a growing number who have come to disagree with that of the staff's.
[06:52] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I totally agree, there have been many who have disagreed with the mods, no denying that.
[06:52] <SquishyWaffle> jdodson: And the forums being a community project, the rift is created when the moderators give a "definitely no" rather than "let's talk about it"
[06:53] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Right.  Well I think that we let people voice opinions, however, some feel there is a point where we must move on.
[06:53] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I am totally all for letting people discuss and issue tell they are done, for what its worth.
[06:54] <SquishyWaffle> And ubuntu-geek, why don't you come in and talk rather than quote me on the forums? There's no reason for that.
[06:54] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Though in the reputation system case, I think since we are not aware of a case of misuse, we realized that it was not worth changing at the time.
[06:55] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: ? What?
[06:55] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I am missing something...:)
[06:55] <SquishyWaffle> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=212629&postcount=37
[06:55] <SquishyWaffle> This whole concept of respect seems to be so fluid. I'm being disrespectful by discussing this with you apparently.
[06:56] <SquishyWaffle> Greetings, Ubuntu-geek
[06:56] <Ubuntu-geek> geesh people.. 
[06:56] <jdodson> sup geek.
[06:56] <Ubuntu-geek> Just come to join the fun..
[06:56] <SquishyWaffle> As I've said, I'm not angry here and I'm not trying to be bothersome. This docteam-forum rift doesn't exist and there's nothing to worry about.
[06:56] <Ubuntu-geek> Seems ever since linuxfest the people here in #ubuntu-doc have had a serious problem with the forums
[06:57] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Thats fair.
[06:57] <Ubuntu-geek> oh i think it does 
[06:57] <jdodson> froud: LOL, thats not terrible helpful.
[06:57] <SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: I spent all of my online time here and we work closely with the forums to find content for our documentation, I don't see this rift.
[06:57] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: it is not my intent to point fingers, seriously.
[06:58] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I have no problems with the doc team.
[06:58] <SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: I think we can all agree that the forums play an important part of the community and we think it fosters said community. This is why some of us are upset right now.
[06:58] <SquishyWaffle> It's because we CARE, not because we hate the forums :)
[06:58] <Ubuntu-geek> Squish: So exactly what is your problem then? Some people have titles you dont?
[06:58] <SquishyWaffle> No, look at my original post, I said nothing about titles the entire time. This was a side issue brought up by another.
[06:58] <Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, the concept of titles goes against the spirit of Ubuntu
[06:58] <Ubuntu-geek> Oh so now we dont care?
[06:58] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Then we all care about the forums, <group hug> *ducks*
[06:59] <Ubuntu-geek> So everyone should be moderators and administrators?
[06:59] <Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, no
[06:59] <SquishyWaffle> That's not what the post said.
[06:59] <Ubuntu-geek> It seems you guys are the only ones who are crying
[06:59] <jdodson> Seveas: I dont think title are against the COC, i mean the "masters of the universe" title, ubuntu has plenty of titles, like developer, etc.
[06:59] <Ubuntu-geek> exactly, even people at canonical have titles
[06:59] <Seveas> administrators/moderators are fine, but things like that respect-o-meter just don't belong in a community like this
[06:59] <SquishyWaffle> We are the only ones "crying" because coming up and making posts that go against someone's wish is never fun and nobody wants to cause drama like this.
[07:00] <Ubuntu-geek> lol well it seems you do want drama
[07:00] <SquishyWaffle> The "reputation" system is what bothered ME personally, and some others. Look at the thread when rep was initially implemented, one of your own moderators expressed alarm.
[07:00] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: It is not my intent to cause drama, it is my intent to communicate and bridge our gap.  seriously i mean no ill will.
[07:00] <SquishyWaffle> jdodson: I know, you've been helpful and understanding here.
[07:00] <Ubuntu-geek> And it has been stated that if IF IF IF the reputation system caused problems it would be removed, as far as titles no i will not remove them.
[07:01] <SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: I would classify said exchange of words a problem, no?
[07:01] <jdodson> Ubuntu-geek: Right, that seems fair.
[07:01] <SquishyWaffle> The titles were off-topic, that's another matter entirely.
[07:02] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Right, so if there "is" an abuse, do you not think it would be a good time to handle it then and not now?
[07:02] <SquishyWaffle> My gripe was that we are all here to encourage each other in helping and working towards our common goal. The reputation system could instead be replaced with something where you can reward people for helping rather than critique their posts. If it's not helpful, then no points.
[07:03] <SquishyWaffle> Several popular support forums implement this method and it's both a fun and supportive way to encourage helping out. Some hold contests to see who can help the most people, etc.
[07:03] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Interesting idea.  I had heard of no such implementation.
[07:03] <SquishyWaffle> Some people are very thin-skinned. If someone genuinely tries to help someone and is neg-repped because he was wrong, he might be upset and not take the time to reply in the future.
[07:04] <jdodson> froud: I usually bet on myself, don't alway win though:)
[07:04] <SquishyWaffle> "I'm all for giving people credit for their efforts, so how about just allowing positive rep points? This makes people happy and it becomes a positive thing rather than a method to rile each other up when you wonder who neg repped you."
[07:04] <Ubuntu-geek> So if we held a contest, is that going agaisnt what you are saying? Basically we would be encouraging someone else to help more then others and being rewarded? How is this different then the user titles
[07:04] <SquishyWaffle> That was in the initial post, jdodson
[07:04] <SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: read my post, it said _nothing_ (ala, not at all) about titles
[07:04] <SquishyWaffle> here's a link: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40056&page=1&pp=10
[07:04] <SquishyWaffle> I'm Gtaylor
[07:05] <Ubuntu-geek> Yeah I figured
[07:05] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ah, well I skim some.... It a problem I recieved in College, *dont want to read 10,000 pages*:)
[07:05] <Ubuntu-geek> I am at work and need to work for.. i'll brb
[07:05] <SquishyWaffle> That post was made in hopes of improving a forum I enjoy, notice it's not inflammatory, it's not derogitory, it's constructive.
[07:05] <jdodson> U-G: later.
[07:06] <Seveas> SquishyWaffle, -1 rep
[07:06] <Seveas> :p
[07:06] <SquishyWaffle> hehe
[07:06] <jdodson> Well anyways, seems we are at a disagreement, which is part of the COC:)
[07:06] <jdodson> sorry that last bit was COC :)
[07:06] <jjesse> did i miss a fight?  seems like there was a ton in my scroll
[07:06] <SquishyWaffle> On a side-note, you can't come in here guns ablaze calling us the ubnutu-doc forum haters, throw assumptions, then leave when things look to be going against you.
[07:07] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ummm, my guns were not blazing, sorry, i did not mean to do that.
[07:07] <jdodson> oh
[07:07] <SquishyWaffle> I sincerely do appreciate your attempt to moderate this jdodson.
[07:07] <jdodson> froud: agreed.
[07:07] <jdodson> cool.
[07:07] <jdodson> Anyways, I gotta run guys, I will try to make it to the CC meeting.  
[07:07] <SquishyWaffle> ok, thanks for stopping by.
[07:08] <jdodson> no problem.  rock on ubuntu.
[07:08] <jdodson> froud: we both deal in text?
[07:08] <jdodson> :) later.
[07:08] <froud> later
[07:09] <jdodson> Oh an corey i meant no disrespect to you, i was attempting to understand better.  i did not mean to paint you into a "you are doing this" it was more of a "it seems to me to be."
[07:09] <jdodson> rock on.
[07:09] <froud> geeze I am not here for a few days and all hell breaks loose
[07:09] <SquishyWaffle> see what you did froud? :)
[07:09] <SquishyWaffle> I would've thought the "I hate Ubuntu" thread would've been a target for more drama: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=41612&goto=newpost
[07:10] <froud> actually I like those thread types
[07:10] <SquishyWaffle> they're definitely amusing
[07:10] <SquishyWaffle> whiner: It doesn't work, this sucks!
[07:10] <froud> they are very informative and should not be discouraged
[07:11] <SquishyWaffle> You know, this whole thing made me realize something scary. Since we have an IRC->Webpage logging system, everything we say will probably be crawled by Google and stowed away for years to come :)
[07:11] <SquishyWaffle> So we could maybe say something like: Hey grandchildren!
[07:12] <froud> yep
[07:12] <SquishyWaffle> or... Hello class of 2050!
[07:12] <froud> mind watch you say google is watching you
[07:12] <SquishyWaffle> It is a bit creepy, no?
[07:12] <froud> somewhere, google did big brother in
[07:13] <SquishyWaffle> That's what we get for picking weird names, googling SquishyWaffle only shows me
[07:13] <jjesse> to paraphrase slashdot "but google is good and not evil like MS"
[07:13] <SquishyWaffle> ugh slashdot
[07:13] <froud> jjesse: you sure of that?
[07:14] <SquishyWaffle> woo, googling GregTaylor has me in the second result :)
[07:14] <jjesse> froud thats a lot of what i read on slashdot can be boiled down to, MS = Evil Google = good
[07:14] <SquishyWaffle> And third
[07:14] <froud> SquishyWaffle: you think my choosing the nick froud was just a fluke?
[07:15] <froud> try google it
[07:15] <SquishyWaffle> world of Froud :)
[07:15] <jjesse> wrold of froud
[07:15] <SquishyWaffle> You're right man: Brian Froud - Fantasy art by enchanted artists: faery art
[07:16] <froud> jjesse: that's just a new war. ppl got bored of the browser wars and the lin vs win war
[07:16] <froud> SquishyWaffle: ;-)
[07:16] <SquishyWaffle> need to make a new James Bond movie where he is hired on to infiltrate the evil Google corporation for Microsoft
[07:18] <froud> hmmm
[07:18] <froud> I'll stick to my goblins
[07:18] <froud> the world of magic protects me
[07:19] <SquishyWaffle> oh no, please not Harry Potter
[07:19] <froud> under my cloak I can froud around anywhere I like
[07:20] <froud> mental, but brilliant
[07:20] <froud> feel the power of the darkside
[07:22] <froud> Hmmmm
[07:23] <froud> sivang: shalom gaver, mashlom gha
[07:23] <SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure what that is but I don't speak it :)
[07:24] <froud> one of the five I speak
[07:24] <SquishyWaffle> hebrew?
[07:24] <froud> yes
[07:24] <froud> bingo
[07:24] <SquishyWaffle> do I get a cookie?
[07:25] <froud> so Seveas tell us about yourself
[07:25] <froud> so SquishyWaffle  tell us about yourself
[07:26] <SquishyWaffle> Hamaychin mitzaadei gaver!
[07:26] <SquishyWaffle> I can copy and paste 10 languages
[07:26] <froud> Hmmm
[07:27] <SquishyWaffle> Sheasah li kol tzarki
[07:27] <froud> no I actually speak it
[07:27] <froud> no copy paste
[07:27] <SquishyWaffle> I know but I don't :)
[07:27] <froud> So tell me about yourself
[07:27] <froud> Where are you
[07:27] <SquishyWaffle> I work/attend Clemson University in South Carolina (USA)
[07:27] <SquishyWaffle> Working on a BS in Computer Science
[07:28] <froud> Student, nice
[07:28] <froud> why do you contribute to foss
[07:29] <SquishyWaffle> I've always been into OS development. I started at an early age with text-based games (MU/MUD/MUX) and moved on to more complex things like Ubuntu. It's just a good feeling to create something and have people make use of it.
[07:29] <froud> nice karma
[07:29] <froud> why ubuntu?
[07:30] <SquishyWaffle> good question :) I have distro hopped for years, always finding things I like but never settling on one complete package. I ended up realizing a year or two ago that obviously I'd never be completely happy. For this reason, I did exactly what open-source developers have done for years: I began to learn how I could contribute to a project with potential and make it what I and everyone else wanted.
[07:31] <SquishyWaffle> I learned about Ubuntu while packaging RPMs for Yoper. I remember seeing posts making fun of the "stupid" name and naturally I was curious. I stopped by after the first testing release and was really hooked.
[07:31] <froud> what do you contribute on at ubuntu?
[07:31] <SquishyWaffle> I always loved debian for my servers, but now I'm able to run a Debian derivative on my personal machines as well :)
[07:32] <SquishyWaffle> I'm learning how to package and have already submitted some patches for the documentation. I've done some wiki work such as an index of docbook tags and will help with the styleguide.
[07:32] <jjesse> grin i was curious about the name as well Squishy
[07:32] <SquishyWaffle> The name was just pulled out of thin air one late night
[07:32] <SquishyWaffle> Aunt Jemima scares me
[07:32] <SquishyWaffle> Like some people are afraid of the Quaker Oats guy
[07:32] <jjesse> grin i meant i was curious about the name ubuntu when i first heard about it
[07:32] <froud> SquishyWaffle: yes I saw your work, nice
[07:33] <SquishyWaffle> jjesse: A lot of people are, perhaps it's an added plus :)
[07:33] <SquishyWaffle> froud: Thanks, small baby steps
[07:33] <froud> SquishyWaffle: you are already a docbook user
[07:33] <SquishyWaffle> froud: A docbook user? I've contributed, yes.
[07:33] <froud> you know docbook
[07:34] <SquishyWaffle> I can swing it, I just started using it a week or so again but I'm familiar with XML/HTMl/PHP and it's just another markup language.
[07:34] <froud> yes
[07:34] <SquishyWaffle> a bunch of tags to be memorized and understood :)
[07:35] <froud> you going to continue giving patches
[07:35] <froud> you are like totally empowered to take any of our docs and work on them
[07:36] <SquishyWaffle> I plan on contributing much, I'm just pondering the next move since we have that docteam meeting coming up.
[07:36] <SquishyWaffle> I'm a KDE enthusiast and the structure of those documents needs to be hammered out, so I don't want to start without seeing what's up with them.
[07:36] <froud> I would not let that defocus you
[07:37] <SquishyWaffle> Ahh, very good :)
[07:37] <froud> do a verion on me
[07:37] <froud> version
[07:37] <SquishyWaffle> I can also write docs at work since I've converted 90% of the lab to Kubuntu and can therefor justify writing material that our researchers can use when learning the ropes.
[07:38] <froud> Kopete hey
[07:38] <SquishyWaffle> yep, I'm lazy :)
[07:38] <froud> well there are a few docs for KDE in svn
[07:38] <froud> feel free do just do dude
[07:39] <froud> block the noise and just do
[07:39] <SquishyWaffle> Definitely, I'll probably have a lull and more free time soon and I fully intend to belt some things out.
[07:39] <froud> perhaps you should send your public pgp key to elmo and enrico
[07:40] <froud> I will back you for commit access
[07:40] <SquishyWaffle> I can but I'm not sure what the process of getting commit access involves.
[07:40] <froud> I just told you
[07:40] <SquishyWaffle> That's it?
[07:40] <froud> send your public pgp key to elmo and enrico
[07:41] <froud> I will back your account
[07:41] <SquishyWaffle> ok, thanks
[07:41] <jdodson> hey all.
[07:41] <SquishyWaffle> greetings
[07:41] <jdodson> did i miss anything?  
[07:41] <SquishyWaffle> froud: Is there a place where elmo/enrico's emails are listed?
[07:42] <froud> jdodson: thinking of joining the docteam
[07:42] <froud> we need patches
[07:42] <froud> msg me your email
[07:44] <jdodson> froud: You are thinking of joining the doc team?  or am i thinking of joining?
[07:44] <froud> ok gimme 5
[07:44] <jdodson> froud: ok.
[07:44] <SquishyWaffle> jdodson: He was asking you :)
[07:44] <jdodson> froud: I have been working with Corey a bit on the fridge.
[07:45] <SquishyWaffle> It's got a really cool logo
[07:45] <SquishyWaffle> shoot, quite literally too
[07:45] <jdodson> froud: I was actually wanting to construct some Docs about the fact that certain games like Quake3 have sound issues.  I have found many fixes, some good, some not so good.
[07:45] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Cool.
[07:45] <SquishyWaffle> jdodson: Are those with the changes in mind for Breezy's sound system?
[07:45] <Burgundavia> the sound issues should be resolved for Breezy
[07:46] <jdodson> Burgundavia: Cool, what are the planning, changing from ESD to?
[07:46] <Burgundavia> currently Breezy goes straight to ALSA dmix
[07:46] <jdodson> Burgundavia: Right.
[07:46] <froud> jdodson: you say we trade in text
[07:46] <froud> jdodson: seems fair ppl at forums contribute some text to us
[07:46] <froud> ;-)
[07:46] <jdodson> froud: Yes, we do:)
[07:47] <jdodson> froud: Thats cool.  If parties are willing.
[07:47] <jdodson> Burgundavia: Thats cool, well I was thinking of constructing some docs on sound to deal with Hoary for the time being.  I was going to post them to the hoary gaming section.
[07:48] <jdodson> Was wondering if you guys recommended something else.
[07:48] <Burgundavia> lets see if we can coordinate taht with jiyoou
[07:48] <jdodson> And also, if there was some format you recommended.  I talked to Corey about this at LinuxFest, I was unclear what the expectations were.
[07:48] <jdodson> Burgundavia: Cool, I think that would be good.
[07:48] <SquishyWaffle> Once the wiki is moved to the new codebase, it's going to be a lot better for stuff like this.
[07:49] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: What codebase are they moving it to?
[07:49] <SquishyWaffle> I believe they're going back to MoinMoin with some modifications
[07:49] <SquishyWaffle> In any case it's much much faster
[07:50] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Just when I got used to the current system.  
[07:50] <jdodson> Well thats cool.
[07:50] <SquishyWaffle> It's just so slow!
[07:50] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I thought I was my 256k/256k DSL:)
[07:50] <SquishyWaffle> And the new one has a lot more functionality
[07:50] <SquishyWaffle> No no, I'm on a huge University pipe and it crawls
[07:50] <jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ah.
[07:50] <SquishyWaffle> I had to get to the Wiki on dialup once, very unhappy half hour.
[07:51] <jdodson> Well anyways, I gotta work now, I might be in and out later on.
[07:51] <SquishyWaffle> seeya
[07:56] <froud> Hmm I thought all unies had huge free pipes
[07:56] <froud> paid for by the gov
[07:57] <SquishyWaffle> I don't at home though :( Living with grandparents while working here this summer (AOL dialup)
[07:57] <SquishyWaffle> We've got a combined pipe of approx 150-175 M/s on campus I believe, not positive.
[07:58] <froud> oh the pain of dialup
[07:58] <froud> 56K flex
[07:58] <SquishyWaffle> I get blazin speeds of 2K/s usually
[07:59] <froud> and I though we in Africa had probelms
[08:00] <SquishyWaffle> Phone/Cable constantly goes out
[08:01] <froud> SquishyWaffle: have you added the kde341 to any of your systems?
[08:01] <SquishyWaffle> all of them
[08:01] <SquishyWaffle> I've found it to run a bit better on our hardware at least
[08:02] <froud> what di you add to sources.list
[08:03] <froud> deb http://kubuntu.org/hoary-kde341 hoary-updates main
[08:03] <froud> or
[08:03] <froud> deb http://download.kde.org/stable/3.4.1/kubuntu hoary-updates main
[08:04] <SquishyWaffle> deb http://kubuntu.org/hoary-kde341 hoary-updates main
[08:05] <froud> Hmm why did you choose that one if I can ask?
[08:06] <SquishyWaffle> I believe it was the first one posted or the only one that worked for us at the time the 3.4.1 announcement was made.
[08:06] <SquishyWaffle> Eventually we're going to mirror it on campus
[08:09] <froud> shikes my wifi is just on the fringe of my network
[08:09] <froud> shikes my wifi is just on the fringe of my network
[08:11] <froud> hmmm fair enough
[08:11] <SquishyWaffle> Maybe if you hold your laptop sideways and slightly elevated you'll pick up a signal :
[08:11] <SquishyWaffle> Or over your head
[08:11] <froud> well I am in bed on the otherside of the house
[08:12] <froud> SquishyWaffle: you tracking devel on Kynaptic
[08:13] <SquishyWaffle> Not closely but it now works reasonably well. I have tinkered with it each time the package updates.
[08:13] <SquishyWaffle> The searching is nice and fast :)
[08:14] <froud> that last patch to the manual was yours, right
[08:15] <SquishyWaffle> I made one to kquickguide, last week
[08:15] <SquishyWaffle> Working on one for the style guide with my tag list in it
[08:17] <froud> OK so you did not patch kyaptic manual
[08:17] <SquishyWaffle> No, it wasn't even displaying for me with Yelp
[08:17] <froud> yelp?
[08:18] <SquishyWaffle> There's some kind of missing dependency, a few other Kubuntu users can't view the kynaptic.xml file either.
[08:18] <froud> kde doc dude
[08:18] <SquishyWaffle> Eh? Nobody mentioned that :)
[08:18] <froud> yes mvo did not do the help integration
[08:19] <froud> no Khelpcenter
[08:19] <SquishyWaffle> I thought that only supported KHTML?
[08:19] <froud> kubuntu = kde = khelpcenter
[08:19] <froud> no plain html to
[08:19] <froud> but mvo did not integrate the help
[08:20] <froud> I must speak to him about it
[08:20] <SquishyWaffle> yeah
[08:20] <SquishyWaffle> khelpcenter kynaptic.xml returns a huge blob of text
[08:21] <froud> khelpcenter does not read xml like yelp
[08:22] <froud> mvo is just leaving I will talk to him tomorrow
[08:22] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[08:23] <froud> yeah khelpcenter does not have stylesheets to transform xml
[08:23] <SquishyWaffle> but they can fix it?
[08:23] <froud> only yelp works that way
[08:23] <froud> yes and do they want to
[08:24] <SquishyWaffle> ugh :)
[08:25] <froud> if they can support all of docbook and not part like is the case with yelp
[08:25] <froud> khelpcenter works faster and is better than yelp
[08:25] <froud> but in kubuntu it is a bit messed up
[08:25] <froud> dunno how that happened
[08:26] <Ubuntu-geek> i am back.. if you want to continue
[08:26] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, I do like khelpcenter.
[08:26] <jjesse> like when i open up khelpcenter it doesn't show any of the docs, will that change?
[08:26] <SquishyWaffle> Ubuntu-geek: I'm not sure what you want to continue, the thread has been locked and it's apparently end of story until the CC meeting.
[08:27] <Ubuntu-geek> very well then.. see you there
[08:27] <Burgundavia> which thread are we discussing?
[08:27] <SquishyWaffle> You can buy me a pizza though :)
[08:27] <froud> Hmm you see no docs at all
[08:27] <Ubuntu-geek> nah i'll pass.. thanks
[08:27] <Ubuntu-geek> burg: the one were squish went off about the reputation system on the forums..
[08:28] <Burgundavia> ah, that one
[08:28] <SquishyWaffle> The only people that went off are you guys, ubuntu-geek, the thread wasn't flamed :)
[08:28] <Ubuntu-geek> yes that one..
[08:28] <SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure why you are here throwing salt in the wounds
[08:29] <Ubuntu-geek> ahh throw it back on me..
[08:29] <Ubuntu-geek> how easy..
[08:29] <SquishyWaffle> jd stopped by and talked to us and we've got as much settled as we can for now, let's just leave it at that.
[08:29] <Ubuntu-geek> thats cool..
[08:29] <Ubuntu-geek> i just took the forums offline i dont need this hassle
[08:30] <SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure what you're getting at, but that's a pity.
[08:30] <Ubuntu-geek> i am getting at the fact that the people on the doc team have serious issues with the forums..
[08:30] <Ubuntu-geek> regardless..
[08:31] <SquishyWaffle> We just had a very positive, lively conversation with jd about working with the forums in the future.
[08:31] <Ubuntu-geek> ok great see you at the meeting then
[08:31] <jjesse> the docs i see are just kde specific not kubuntu specific
[08:32] <SquishyWaffle> yeah jjesse, that's how it is for me too
[08:32] <jjesse> that will change in breezy?
[08:33] <SquishyWaffle> definitely
[08:33] <SquishyWaffle> No sense writing docs if nobody can find them :)
[08:34] <SquishyWaffle> Either that or we may just replace the KDE documentation with Ubuntu-specific stuff entirely, we'll have to see at the docteam meeting.
[08:38] <froud> hmm I see all kde docs
[08:39] <froud> but ubuntu-docs did not ship any kubuntu related docs in hoary, so you wont see anything of that in kubuntu khelpcenter
[08:40] <SquishyWaffle> Something to look forward to in Breezy :)
[08:40] <froud> yeah, but do you see the kde docs
[08:40] <jjesse> yeah i do
[08:40] <SquishyWaffle> I see some but it doesn't look like they were organized right
[08:41] <froud> ok that's good
[08:41] <froud> organized right that would be an upstream discussion, since we did not package any docs for kubuntu
[08:42] <SquishyWaffle> yeah
[08:42] <froud> breezy is the first attempt to do so
[08:42] <froud> looks like kwickguide is a definate
[08:42] <SquishyWaffle> Breezy is going to be awesome, so many new updates and fixes and improvements
[08:43] <froud> the kynaptic manual will probably move upstream
[08:43] <SquishyWaffle> That's good news
[08:43] <froud> its ok for us to do specific app docs here, so long as we devel them in compliance with upstream requirements
[08:44] <froud> then when they are ready, we shunt them upstream
[08:44] <froud> I have done this will a few apps
[08:44] <froud> works well
[08:44] <SquishyWaffle> Win-win situation
[08:45] <froud> yes, but ppl get confused
[08:45] <froud> it is important to diff when we say ubuntu or kubuntu docs that we do not mean docs that will move upstream
[08:46] <froud> the diff can be seen this way gnome docs and ubuntu docs, kde docs and kubuntu docs
[08:47] <froud> a gnome doc is a manual for a single application
[08:47] <froud> same for a kde doc
[08:48] <froud> the wonders of married life
[08:48] <SquishyWaffle> Shoot, this drama has kept me here 3 hours past my lunchtime. Must go eat :) I'll be back.
[08:48] <froud> later
[08:54] <Burgundavia> salut mpt
[08:57] <froud> Hmmm I wonder if KOffice will go into Breezy
[08:57] <Burgundavia> file a bug and ask for it
[08:58] <froud> it is not a bug:-)
[08:59] <froud> I wonder if it would be better to install KOffice as stock apps for office productivity instea of OOo
[08:59] <Burgundavia> if they can do everything OO can do
[08:59] <froud> not sure that they can
[09:00] <froud> but they can allot
[09:00] <froud> I wonder how users would react
[09:02] <Seveas> Koffice starts with a K
[09:02] <Seveas> so it's a bug

[09:02] <froud> kan't beleive it
[09:02] <Seveas> ah kome on
[09:02] <Seveas> you kan :)
[09:03] <froud> I see you are an ardent gnome fan
[09:03] <Seveas> eh, sort of :)
[09:03] <froud> where did you put your foot tattoo
[09:03] <Seveas> lol :)
[09:03] <Seveas> in the upper left corner of my screen
[09:03] <froud> kde rocks dude
[09:03] <froud> I have proof
[09:04] <froud> finally
[09:04] <Seveas> and gnome is the dynamite that wrecks the rock :)
[09:04] <Seveas> you have? show me!
[09:04] <froud> I have been working with a freind to get his internet cafe running linux
[09:04] <jjesse> kde is much beter the gnome
[09:04] <froud> we installed gnome and kde on all boxes
[09:05] <froud> for the first week we let regular customers choose which they want
[09:05] <froud> they bounced back and forth
[09:05] <froud> in the second week we notice more using kde than gnome
[09:05] <froud> we did no preach
[09:05] <froud> we wanted to see what would happen
[09:06] <froud> we only helped when they got stuck
[09:06] <froud> more people got stuck using gnome than kde
[09:06] <froud> that tells me something
[09:06] <froud> I hav ethe actual proof
[09:06] <Seveas> that's because more people are made dumb by windows, which kde resembles. They can no longer think in the clean gnome way :)
[09:06] <froud> seen it with my own eye
[09:07] <froud> nah dude
[09:07] <froud> that a kop out
[09:07] <froud> I want ppl to use linux
[09:08] <Seveas> froud, I bet you like emacs iver vim too?
[09:08] <Seveas> over*
[09:08] <froud> if they are prepared to do so with kde then I keep them going
[09:08] <froud> no I dontuse emacs
[09:08] <froud> I use vi
[09:08] <jjesse> i like emacs :)
[09:08] <Seveas> ah, thank god, there's a bit of sanity left in you froud :)
[09:08] <froud> nano is good
[09:09] <froud> sometime pico
[09:09] <Seveas> usually it's instant flamefest
[09:09] <froud> nah me is tired of wars
[09:09] <Seveas> this was a gentlemens fight
[09:10] <froud> me want to make love, not war
[09:10] <Seveas> but sometimes it's nice to hear what the 'other side' has as arguments now
[09:10] <Seveas> your argument is quite convincing
[09:10] <froud> no really, it was an amazing thing to watch users
[09:10] <Seveas> yeah
[09:10] <froud> this freind of mine has opened his caffe in a poor area
[09:11] <froud> he spent time speaking to the ppl about linux
[09:11] <froud> he did not want to try someting that would chase the customers away
[09:11] <Seveas> heh
[09:11] <Seveas> fluxbox :D
[09:11] <froud> he was amazed how many know of Linux and where eager to try it
[09:12] <Seveas> that would have made them run away screaming...
[09:12] <froud> so we decided, with there permission to run the experiment
[09:12] <Seveas> nice
[09:12] <froud> you are cruel
[09:12] <Seveas> i know
[09:12] <froud> so I still say kde rocks
[09:13] <froud> if it can get users using it more than gnome then it is tops for me
[09:13] <froud> guess what there favorite app is
[09:14] <Seveas> amarok?
[09:14] <Seveas> konqueror?
[09:14] <Seveas> kvim?
[09:14] <froud> KControlCenter
[09:14] <Seveas> k[insert name] 
[09:14] <Seveas> hehehe
[09:14] <froud> they rave about it
[09:14] <Seveas> tweaking galore...
[09:14] <froud> they say that is why they like kde
[09:15] <froud> they can find all the control settings in one place
[09:15] <froud> that has been one of the main differentiators for them
[09:15] <Seveas> gnome-control-center
[09:15] <froud> and so they like kde more
[09:15] <froud> not quite the same is it?
[09:16] <froud> the number of features and options is also someting they seem to like
[09:16] <froud> I would have thought that would have bamboozled them
[09:16] <Seveas> yeah, sounds like ex-windows patients :)
[09:16] <froud> but it has no
[09:16] <Seveas> But what is your personal preference?
[09:16] <froud> well lets face it windows does rule
[09:17] <froud> kde
[09:17] <Seveas> windows rule..?
[09:17] <froud> yes windows rules
[09:17] <Seveas> well, it rules as in most people still use it
[09:17] <froud> exactly
[09:17] <froud> so they jump between kde and windows is not as big
[09:17] <Seveas> so ex-windows patients will go to gnome via KDE :)
[09:17] <froud> ppl get productive quick
[09:18] <froud> maybe
[09:18] <froud> at least some will
[09:18] <Seveas> and some won't
[09:18] <froud> sure
[09:18] <Burgundavia> my brother was a power windows user
[09:18] <Burgundavia> and he jumped to gnome with no issue
[09:18] <Seveas> people differ and they always will
[09:18] <froud> but kde is a better way to port a windows user to linux
[09:18] <jjesse> thats cause it looks more like windows
[09:18] <froud> the barrier to entry is lower
[09:18] <Seveas> froud, as in it sucks almost as hard, true ;)
[09:19] <froud> yes that is not a problem is it
[09:19] <Seveas> sorry, a rant i couldn't miss :)
[09:19] <froud> no kde rocks dude
[09:19] <froud> its way ahead
[09:19] <jjesse> light years ahead
[09:20] <froud> the DCOP technology and KPart stuff jst works so well
[09:21] <froud> Seveas: I am willing to give users whatever it is they want so long as they will work on Linux
[09:21] <Seveas> :)
[09:21] <Seveas> I like that thought
[09:21] <jjesse> the best tool for the job is what i always push for
[09:22] <Seveas> But I rather spend a few hours teaching them the right way than letting them use KDE Krapware..
[09:22] <froud> if kde makes it more possible then I think it is better to try with that rather than fight harder
[09:22] <froud> Seveas: kde apps are rock solid dude
[09:22] <froud> kIIIb for example
[09:23] <froud> hello enrico 
[09:23] <jjesse> hello enrico join the kde vs gnome war that froud has going :)
[09:23] <Seveas> k3b beats gnome burning apps to death indeed
[09:24] <froud> its no war
[09:24] <SquishyWaffle> We could bring in a fluxbox junky to make it interesting
[09:24] <Seveas> hmm yeah :)
[09:24] <enrico> hi
[09:24] <enrico> oh, no, thanks
[09:24] <froud> KDM is better than GDM any days
[09:24] <enrico> What's SquishyWaffle?
[09:25] <enrico> Hi SquishyWaffle !
[09:25] <SquishyWaffle> Hello enrico!
[09:25] <froud> Seveas: you gonna tel me know that GDM is better than KDM
[09:25] <jjesse> man some of these open source documentations suck 
[09:25] <jjesse> i hate trying to figure things out w/ them
[09:26] <froud> welcome to FOSS jjesse 
[09:26] <Seveas> Use the source, luke :)
[09:26] <jjesse> !coder
[09:26] <jjesse> barely a linux geek
[09:27] <SquishyWaffle> Any of you ever played with TinyOS? I think that's quite possibly the most incomplete documentation of any large OS project :)
[09:28] <Seveas> froud, i wouldn't know, havent tried kdm in years
[09:28] <froud> ouch shame
[09:28] <jjesse> so the entire arguement has been based on an older version of kde?
[09:28] <froud> Seveas: sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
[09:29] <Seveas> jjesse, kdm != kde
[09:29] <jjesse> oh the window manager
[09:29] <Seveas> froud, no thanks...
[09:29] <froud> when finished dpkg reconfigure to use kdm
[09:29] <Seveas> i'm happy with gnome
[09:29] <SquishyWaffle> kdm is sexy
[09:29] <Seveas> For sexyness I have my fiancee :)
[09:30] <SquishyWaffle> blargh
[09:30] <Burgundavia> why the hell do we have two login managers?
[09:30] <Burgundavia> is that not something the freedesktop.org should handle now?
[09:30] <enrico> SquishyWaffle: preferred username?
[09:30] <SquishyWaffle> enrico: gtaylor if possible
[09:31] <froud> Burgundavia: yeah get rid of GDM and use KDM
[09:32] <enrico> SquishyWaffle: sent the request.  You and froud should be in Cc.
[09:32] <SquishyWaffle> enrico: Much appreciated
[09:32] <froud> Burgundavia: some apps were developed to run only under centain window manager
[09:33] <enrico> It's the minimum I can do
[09:33] <Burgundavia> that is not a showstopper
[09:33] <froud> Burgundavia: but today most run under both
[09:33] <froud> KDE did a better window manger
[09:34] <froud> but gnome did not want to use it becuase it did not come from gnome
[09:34] <SquishyWaffle> Why is Gnome's symbol a foot?
[09:34] <froud> gdm and kdm are not lightweight
[09:35] <froud> often wondered and never found an answer
[09:35] <froud> Seveas: what's with the gnome common dialogs
[09:36] <froud> Seveas: why must they be so complicated
[09:36] <enrico> SquishyWaffle: it's the footprint of the gnome
[09:36] <froud> a simple save as operation
[09:36] <enrico> (the icon)
[09:36] <enrico> when you look at the memory, it's the footprint of the giant :)(
[09:36] <froud> needs more clicks that needed
[09:36] <Burgundavia> froud, common dialogs?
[09:36] <SquishyWaffle> enrico: What gnome though?
[09:36] <Burgundavia> froud, kde's idea of putting everything in one menu is crazy
[09:36] <enrico> SquishyWaffle: maybe the footprint of a bonobo monkey rather than a gnome
[09:37] <froud> Burgundavia: why
[09:37] <froud> start > 
[09:37] <SquishyWaffle> I heart my KDE menu, and you can make submenus on your panel bar
[09:37] <Burgundavia> because most of the time, you are not looking for the control panel, etc.
[09:37] <enrico> but both gnome and kde have quite high memory footprints
[09:38] <froud> he he
[09:38] <froud> Burgundavia: you can have as many menus as you want in kde
[09:38] <froud> you can even have a kasbar
[09:38] <Burgundavia> yes, but most users will never change the default
[09:39] <froud> and a MAC OS menu
[09:39] <Burgundavia> it is not about what you can do, it is about what is default
[09:39] <froud> default is good
[09:39] <froud> all in one place
[09:39] <froud> easy nav
[09:39] <froud> map to win bitton on keyboards
[09:40] <froud> use nav keys to move in programs menu
[09:40] <SquishyWaffle> anybody know where to get them?
[09:40] <enrico> SquishyWaffle: I've seen someone selling stickers
[09:40] <froud> SquishyWaffle: that would be mice
[09:40] <enrico> to put on keys
[09:40] <Seveas> froud, can KDE also do the Mac trick with the one-menu-bar-for-all-programs?
[09:40] <Seveas> i mean the bar at the top in MacOS
[09:40] <froud> yes
[09:40] <froud> yes
[09:40] <Seveas> ok, i'm sold
[09:41] <Seveas> I always wanted that
[09:41] <SquishyWaffle> Does that mean we win?
[09:41] <enrico> SquishyWaffle: http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040817_142635.html
[09:41] <froud> hav eyou seen the pather os
[09:41] <Seveas> SquishyWaffle, no one wins :)
[09:41] <froud> icon zooming
[09:41] <SquishyWaffle> enrico: Good stuff :)
[09:42] <froud> I think gentoo also use it
[09:42] <SquishyWaffle> Seveas: Shouldn't you be installing Kubuntu right now? heh
[09:42] <froud> Seveas: cool stuff
[09:42] <Seveas> SquishyWaffle, /me is checking out the size of the beast
[09:42] <froud> Seveas: I forget the name of the them that does it
[09:42] <SquishyWaffle> mmm, what kind of connection do you have?
[09:46] <SquishyWaffle> that'd be an interesting job :)
[09:46] <Seveas> hmm, 306 mb space and 106 mb download to try out an inferior DE again, nothx
[09:48] <froud> Seveas: your loss mate
[09:49] <Seveas> i'm not gonna loose sleep over it :)
[09:49] <Seveas> and i bet neither will you :)
[09:50] <Seveas> hehe
[09:50] <froud> its a nifty thing
[09:50] <froud>  one day Seveas will see the color
[09:51] <froud>  and realize that we are speaking the truth
[09:52] <froud>  perhaps Seveas is scared to try it
[09:52] <SquishyWaffle> yarr
[09:52] <Seveas> :)
[09:54] <SquishyWaffle> Does anyone remember the URL for the IRC logs?
[09:55] <Seveas>  /topic
[09:55] <froud> irclog.workaround.org
[09:55] <SquishyWaffle> oh shoot, I never re-log so I forgot about that
[09:55] <SquishyWaffle> Thanks
[09:56] <froud> mmmm you just gotta love apt-get install
[09:57] <Seveas> froud, apt-get
[09:57] <Seveas> use aptitude!
[09:58] <froud> Seveas: like I need a hole in my head
[09:59] <Seveas> ghe
[09:59] <Seveas> you have one already
[09:59] <froud> rather use synaptic or kynaptic or kpackage
[09:59] <Seveas> otherwise you wou;dn't use KDE
[10:00] <froud> off to take a showr later
[11:14] <SquishyWaffle> I'm happy to hear that the forum problems have been resolved, the staff have talked it over and have come to an agreement, thus removing the rep system. I think a good decision was made and I'm glad it was done.
[11:19] <Seveas> ok, i took the step
[11:19] <Seveas> i installed kubuntu-desktop
[11:19] <Seveas> and i'm right now purging it again
[11:20] <Seveas> It's still krap
[11:22] <Seveas> he went for a shower
[11:22] <Seveas> (more than one-and-a-half hour ago)
[11:23] <SquishyWaffle> hopefully he didn't slip
[11:25] <SquishyWaffle> off for the night I go!