=== SquishyWaffle [~GTaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mako [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:17] so. uh.. where did the faqs go [12:24] mako, the faqs? [12:24] yeah. the ones that used to be in the website [12:24] they were transferred to the wiki [12:24] the howtos right? [12:24] no, the FAQs [12:25] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq [12:25] mako, how long has it been like that? [12:25] i just noticed it [12:25] maybe 2-3 days [12:25] hmm [12:25] probably 2 max [12:25] no idea [12:25] that's quite bad [12:25] mako, henrik will know [12:26] none of us have write access to the website, but he will know I'm sure [12:26] i just looked at webmaster and info mail and the weekend worth of errors for the shipit FAQ alone is pretty massive [12:26] oh dear [12:26] so, i'm the first to notice [12:26] guess so [12:27] haven't seen anything about it on our list [12:27] neither have i [12:55] mako, well if there is anything we can do to help, let us know :) === robitaille [~robitaill@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === SquishyWaffle [~GTaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === judax [~judax@ppp-69-148-18-161.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt__ [~mpt@203-167-186-66.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === boglot [chaas@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kassetra [~kassetra@c-67-171-201-213.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~sean@ndn-165-146-74.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kassetra [~kassetra@c-67-171-201-213.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:48] shalom [09:43] judax: nice patches [09:43] (sorry im just applying them now) [09:45] (i had to clean up the document as well) [10:01] judax: also the screenshots are great, but if I include them it'll make the book inconsistent [10:02] judax: can you use the default theme instead [10:06] for now i'll remove all references to the screenshots, hope you understand [10:06] (i really need a separate box to do this grrr) === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.236] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:57] sivang, hey === kassetra [~kassetra@c-67-171-201-213.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:58] jsgotangco: hey [11:01] hows it going [11:11] Hi guys, I've been looking at the wiki and it's quite messy at some spots. I've already done heaps of reparenting to clean that up a bit. Is it ok to merge howto's delete superseded ones and restructure some things? [11:14] feel free to do it but make sure its ok with the original author or won't mess up the overall wiki structure [12:27] ok later guys [12:43] tweedledee [12:43] and the wiki restructuring continues :) [02:16] hi Seveas [02:16] best not to bother [02:16] the parenting system does not have long to live [02:18] tomorrow is the wiki transfer === mkde [~mdke@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:28] damn connection [02:28] hi Seveas [02:28] you there? [02:33] good idea with ObsoletePages [02:53] hi [02:53] yeah i know [02:54] am fixing up the UserDocumentation section now [02:54] Lots of obsolete stuff there [02:54] mdke, what will replace the parenting system? [02:54] nothing [02:54] hmm [02:55] so all pages will become singletons and have to be re-linked? [02:55] well many pages are linked already [02:55] or will all parents initially have links to their children? [02:55] the links to children will be copied into talkpages of the main page [02:55] so that they can be inserted if necessary [02:56] ok [02:56] then i will continue fixing up parenting [02:56] ok [02:56] and as of tomorrow remove/edit these talkpage links :) [02:56] cool thanks for your help [02:56] no prob [02:57] been meaning to to this a long time already [02:57] by the way, before deleting pages, make sure they don't have any backlinks [02:57] i have 3 draft wikipages in my head too that will be awesome :) [02:57] nice [02:57] What time does the transition start? [02:58] 10am [02:58] BST [02:59] BST? [02:59] Brazil? [02:59] so thats 9 UTC [02:59] ah ok [02:59] *grins* [02:59] BST = british summer time [02:59] ah :) === Seveas is in UTC+2 [02:59] Amsterdam [02:59] cool [03:06] mdke, will th new wiki be wiki.u.c or www.u.o/wiki? [03:07] certainly the former, and probably the latter i guess === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:19] the funny thing is: FrontPage is now a singleton :) [03:19] thats the way it should be [03:20] indeed [03:20] but it never was [03:21] since people kept ading subtopics there [03:21] well we keep moving em away [03:21] but on the new wiki that won't happen [03:21] because you'll have to make a link in order to create a page [03:22] :) [03:22] that's the way it should be [03:23] over the next days i'll keep restructuting things [03:23] restructuring* [03:23] thats nice of you [03:23] does the new wiki also have a nice table of contents mechanism? [03:24] that requires a plugin, but probably yes [03:24] anchor links should be possible [03:25] Seveas, or were you talking about a different sort of table of contents? [03:26] well, something like www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage/contents [03:27] an easy way to see all pages in a parent-child hierarchy [03:27] a [03:27] h [03:27] no the new wiki won't have that [03:27] given that the parent-child hierarchy won't exist [03:28] hmm, figures [03:28] but there will be an AllPages link? [03:28] yes [03:28] check out http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com [03:29] i know that one :) [03:29] TitleIndex for example [03:30] WordIndex too [03:30] nice [03:30] that'll help bringing the new wiki in shape [03:30] and the others at SiteNavigation [03:32] Seveas, maybe you can also help with a project that we will try to develop soon [03:32] basically we want to flag up the wiki pages that are in a decent enough state for documentation [03:33] hmm, sounds like a plan [03:33] by the way the documentation on u.org is completely non-existent [03:33] yes [03:33] mdke, as an extension to moinmoin oslt? [03:34] anyway, we will have a page to suggest which pages are nearly ready, and then the documentation team will make locked copies of them, and then convert them to docbook format to be published [03:34] Seveas, what is that? [03:35] Does anyone know the best way to put a topic on the agenda for the next CC meeting? [03:36] i mean this flagging system [03:36] will that be an extension to the wiki? [03:36] SquishyWaffle, yeah, add it to the agenda :p [03:36] Seveas, no [03:36] SquishyWaffle, add it to the agenda page :) [03:36] You don't have to ask permission to do so first? [03:36] mdke, so what are the plans than? [03:37] SquishyWaffle, nope [03:37] Seveas, what I said [03:37] yeah ok, but how are you planning to implement it? [03:37] we'll have a locked section in which to copy pages which are ready/nearly ready [03:38] ah ok [03:38] then we'll convert them to docbook and put them in our archive [03:38] nice [03:38] do you have a good wiki2docbook utility already? [03:38] Seveas, so if you come across any nice documentation in your travels, make a mental note [03:38] hehe, ok [03:39] Seveas, mvirkkil is working on one, otherwise we will do it by hand [03:39] i've stopped reparenting now [03:39] todo: the documentation [03:39] and all with releases as parent [03:39] but i think it's better to do that on the new wiki [03:40] yeah [03:40] thanks for your work [03:40] but all userpages now have UserPages as parent and no children [03:40] an more stupidities like that are solved :) [03:41] Does anyone see my reasoning in this post or am I completely off-based?: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40056 [03:42] i agree 100% [03:43] i feel quite strongly about that stuff so I'm gonna post too === Seveas never uses forums [03:44] i quite hate them :) [03:44] Well kassetra (who is now in this room) has basically told me to keep my mouth shut about it because they're not going to change it. I still disagree quite strongly and am thinking of putting it up for discussion in the next CC meeting. [03:45] Some very well ran support forums use a positive rep system and I think used positively that we might see some benefit from a system such as this. [03:45] IE: I help a new Linux user and they give me positive rep [03:47] i hate heirarchy [03:47] its dangerous and is contrary to the Ubuntu code of conduct in my opinion [03:47] people should not be encouraged to feel better than others [03:47] indeed [03:47] Yeah, it just seems like they added the feature just to give the forum another gadget [03:48] the forum is full of that stuff [03:48] talking about ubuntu-meeting, can you have a look at www.ubuntulinux.nl/time and give your opinion [03:48] a friend of mine suddenly found himself called "Ubuntu Community Developer" without having been informed of it [03:48] he was put out [03:48] lol [03:48] because he believes in the spirit of Ubuntu [03:49] i've never enjoyed the forum to be honest, ive found more support in one of the channel or the wiki or the docs [03:50] forums attract kiddies and people that (have) never grow(n) up, that makes me hate them even though there are good things going on in forums [03:50] its a good place for support [03:50] Well further pressing the question, is it in the moderator's rights to tell me to stop replying to that thread? Can they just tell people to be quiet like that despite some people agreeing with him that there is a problem? [03:50] SquishyWaffle, again you are right [03:50] SquishyWaffle, no, that's definitely not in their rights [03:51] freedom of expression is important, especially since you are not doing anyone harm [03:51] moderators also should keep the CoC in mind [03:51] That was basically what I responded with (via Private Message) but I didn't know if I was overstepping my bounds or if she was overstepping hers. [03:52] is the forum an offically supported ubuntu project or run on the side? [03:52] not yet [03:52] It says they are bound by the Code of Conduct though in Forum FAQ [03:52] a bit of both i suppose [03:54] so I guess I should just put a description of the problem on the CC agenda and show up for the discussion? [03:54] SquishyWaffle, indeed [03:54] yeah [03:54] i think it is possible to argue that its within the CC jurisdiction [03:54] i'll get your back [03:55] Ok, thanks for the help and advice. I'm not trying to cause trouble but I see this as becoming problematic. [03:55] i agree on that [03:55] my views go even further than yours [03:55] i don't even like the positive feedback [03:56] Would this go under 'Any other business'? [03:56] yes [03:57] i've posted [03:57] ok, I'll get this stuff outlined [03:57] i agree with the post by sniffer [03:57] "And i really hate hierarchy's stuff.... [03:57] that's not the open source spirit...." [03:57] heh, Super Duper Moderator [03:58] and yeah, I like the feeling of equality and working towards a mutual goal without feeling inferior to others in stature [04:00] yeah [04:01] it is part of the spirit that founded Ubuntu [04:01] but that spirit is getting lost [04:08] I'm going to use your quote in the wiki entry, mdke, that was very well suited for it [04:12] ok np [04:12] its from the code of conduct [04:16] seems like the higher-ups are all for it, you just got a reply [04:16] http://www.ubuntulinux.nl/time?view=docteam <-- woohoo, my auto-scaling works [04:16] SquishyWaffle, yeah saw it [04:16] (sorry, just had to tell someone :)) [04:17] ooh that guy is a "Contributor" [04:17] I WANT A UBUNTU DOCUMENTATION TEAM LABEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! === mdke hides === Seveas gives mdke the wannabee-forum-good-and-good-lame-newbie-look-alike-label [04:18] wannabee-forum-god* [04:18] weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee [04:18] I can't believe people are labelled if they give money [04:19] that sucks SO BAD [04:19] yeah === mdke gives 0.01 euros [04:19] muha [04:19] eat my euro cent [04:21] this wiki page will probably be neutered once I post it [04:21] SquishyWaffle, nah === mdke gets out his sword and stands on the bridge in front of the wiki page [04:22] I'll make a copy of what I post, feel free to add on to it in a few minutes when I post since you have a different spin on things than I do [04:22] I will briefly outline your position so you can expand on it, but you word it better than I do [04:27] k [04:27] all yours, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForumRepSystem [04:27] maybe we should have a section at the bottom where people can "sign" in agreement? [04:27] the problem is [04:28] it is a moot point whether this question is within CC jurisdiction [04:29] The forums bear the name of Ubuntu and say they are bound by the CoC, they are also the most visible and well traveled of our support/interaction mechanisms. [04:29] yeah [04:29] i know [04:29] but in the end it is a private project [04:39] I'm thinking that since the moderators and admins are generally full Ubuntu members, they are therefor subject to the CoC by association also. [04:40] yes [04:41] i suppose to some extent the concept of Ubuntu Members also implies Heirarchy === mdke follows through the full implications of his opinions, and disappears in a flash of hypocrisy [04:41] Well that may be why the whole @ubuntu.com email address thing is so hot [04:44] now look at that reversal of opinion :) [04:56] hmm [05:06] SquishyWaffle, my "community developer" friend agrees with you [05:06] i asked him to post [05:07] Ok, thanks. It's good to hear from some others who are involved with development [05:09] he's not [05:09] that's why he was a bit put out when he received the title [05:09] ahh, heh [05:10] he made a program which became popular on the forum [05:10] but its wholly unofficial [05:10] The menu editor? [05:10] *grins* [05:10] no [05:10] the boot up manager thing [05:11] the menu editor guy is pretty involved with #ubuntu-devel [05:11] I do remember seeing the boot manager project [05:16] did you want to make any changes to that wiki page? [05:19] not right now === froud [~sean@ndn-165-146-74.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-66.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:01] rhu rho, we're going to hear from ubuntu-geek shortly :) === ealden [~ealden@219.90.94.157] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jdodson [~jdodson@70-59-134-199.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:27] whats up doc team. [06:27] this is jdodson from the forums. hope your day is going well. [06:27] anyone around to chat with? [06:27] chat [06:28] indeed. [06:28] go ahead [06:28] ha! ok i will. [06:28] what's up [06:28] i attended linux fest northwest a bit ago. [06:28] anyways, i attended a lecture by corey and it was pretty good. [06:29] he said some stuff i was not aware of, so mad props to corey. [06:29] cool good to here you enjoyed it [06:29] though, indeed i was dismayed a bit. [06:29] oh, how so [06:29] it seems in coreys lecture he seemed to dislike the forums. now i guess thats fine, given that not everyone has to like them. [06:29] we dont force anyone to use them or anything. [06:29] ok [06:30] and them it seems from his posts to the mail list, he seems to rather paint us in a negative light. [06:30] whose us [06:30] the forums in entirety. [06:30] ok [06:31] he is entitled his point of view (dunno what that is) [06:31] its just his opinion [06:31] agreed. [06:31] ok [06:32] hold a sec, snagging something. === desdiny [~desdinova@dynamic-62-56-51-229.park-s46b.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:34] http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34054&highlight=noise [06:34] i know communication is a two way road. sometimes words are misunderstood. [06:35] it seems to me that there is a chasm between the forums and the doc-team. [06:35] that's it? [06:35] Have to taken it up with Corey yet? [06:35] he is actually a lovable puppy once you get to know him better === froud reads [06:35] i know, i found him to be a nice guy too. [06:35] however, as of late it seems, from reading some IRC logs from here, that you more doc-team members might have problems with the forums. [06:36] i am here to hold out an olive branch, i want to talk it over some. [06:36] he is in the chat room now, i imagine he is away though. [06:37] the forums are a collection of users both experienced and not, and they write things and like to help people. sometimes that looks great, as in the advice is credible, sometimes it is not. [06:37] or just watching [06:37] i can understand why the doc-team might be at odds with that. [06:37] froud: i understand. [06:37] I am not for or against here [06:37] froud: thats cool. [06:38] though I can highlight some problems [06:38] thats fine. [06:38] perhaps you can bring solutions [06:38] someone from the doc team put it up to talk about some of our disagreements in the next community council meeting, i think that is a good idea. [06:38] i think if everyone is together, we can all do the problem/solution bit. [06:38] one of the main problems in general is a fragmentation of information [06:39] i heard corey say that when we talked in person. to be honest i am not sure how we can deal with that, given the nature of forums. [06:39] the more fragmentation that happens the harder it is for users to find info and know it to be corect [06:39] i understand. [06:39] as a result [06:40] a user reads someting [06:40] and does it [06:40] all breaks [06:40] i really have not heard of that happening too often, however i imagine it has. [06:40] and so somebody on support must fix it [06:40] too much of this and people get frustrated [06:41] jdodson: I'm probably to blame here for starting this one, but as I said, the intent is not negative. [06:41] SquishyWaffle: i understand what you are trying to do, really. [06:41] This was made progressively worse when I was contacted by kassetra, who told me to keep my opinion to myself (worded nicely of course). [06:42] Right, I don't want to address that issue specifically, I just wanted to say "hey guys lets be friends:) [06:42] in a barney sort of way. [06:42] I'm perfectly fine with that, I like the community that has grown on the forums, which is why I'm upset. [06:42] lame, i know, but we are on the same team. i love ubuntu and want it to take over the world. [06:42] SquishyWaffle: Ok. [06:43] hello, just read the scrollback [06:43] It seems though, like you mentioned in you post on the forums, that this issue "the negative rep thing" can be interpreted different ways when we think of the COC. [06:43] I also recognize that you guys most definitely have the final say in things, but I just get the impression that things have been decided before we even started to discuss it and therefore the responses amount to "It's staying how it is" with no compromise or acknowledgement. [06:43] jdodson: I think everyone is very passionate, maybe even a bit too religious. [06:43] I think Kassetra definatley has the COC in mind when she posts. [06:44] Burgundavia: hi [06:44] froud: I would agree wholehartedly. [06:44] Burgundavia: Hey. [06:45] to clarify, I don't dislike the forums [06:45] So if we can interpret the COC in different ways, then there is room for disagreement. It seems that since ubuntu-geek pays the server bills then he has the last say, especially when the issue is not so black and white. [06:45] the primary issue is lack of communication [06:45] Burgundavia: Cool, I guess it seemed to some of us you did, that is cool to know, thanks. [06:45] jdodson, I think the community council would be the last person to say [06:45] Burgundavia: That is why I am here:) [06:46] Burgundavia: I think the CC meeting will be a good thing. [06:46] The doc team vs. forum thing is blown out of proportion, it doesn't really exist. People bicker and complain, it happens. But we all appreciate and understand the value of the forums and the role they play. [06:46] I have been doing a lot of work in the breezy forum, trying to communicate what is going to happen and to make people file bugs [06:46] The latest bickering is over an isolated issue. [06:46] The "wannabe forum god" remarks were in response to me asking what to do after being PM'd by kassetra. [06:47] SquishyWaffle: Ok, thats fair. [06:47] SquishyWaffle: I can understand why you make those comments, however, they do not add to community cohesion. We can all say what we will, that does not mean it is interpreted the way we mean. === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:48] I did not make those remarks === froud nods at jjesse [06:49] SqushyWaffle: Oh, well whoever did:) [06:49] I guess I mean, whoever made them, it doesnt help things. [06:49] As I've said, I am looking at this, sitting in front of my computer completely calm and have been. Discussion is perfectly possible without anger, which is why I've pressed the issue. [06:50] The moderators seem eager to get rid of the thread for "getting out of control" but what i see is a calm discussion looking for answers and opinions. [06:51] SquishyWaffle: We our stance is that we think we should keep the system. It seems that pressing the issue is what some feel is the problem. === froud ponders how much time and energy is spent on dispute management in FOSS projects === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:51] froud: HA! We could have re-written the kernel 80 times over. [06:51] jdodson: Your stance has been made pretty clear but the issue at hand is that there exists a growing number who have come to disagree with that of the staff's. [06:52] SquishyWaffle: I totally agree, there have been many who have disagreed with the mods, no denying that. [06:52] jdodson: And the forums being a community project, the rift is created when the moderators give a "definitely no" rather than "let's talk about it" === froud wonders if a forum can be a project [06:53] SquishyWaffle: Right. Well I think that we let people voice opinions, however, some feel there is a point where we must move on. [06:53] SquishyWaffle: I am totally all for letting people discuss and issue tell they are done, for what its worth. [06:54] And ubuntu-geek, why don't you come in and talk rather than quote me on the forums? There's no reason for that. [06:54] SquishyWaffle: Though in the reputation system case, I think since we are not aware of a case of misuse, we realized that it was not worth changing at the time. [06:55] SquishyWaffle: ? What? [06:55] SquishyWaffle: I am missing something...:) [06:55] http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=212629&postcount=37 [06:55] This whole concept of respect seems to be so fluid. I'm being disrespectful by discussing this with you apparently. === Ubuntu-geek [~Ryan@64.141.138.3] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:56] Greetings, Ubuntu-geek [06:56] geesh people.. [06:56] sup geek. [06:56] Just come to join the fun.. [06:56] As I've said, I'm not angry here and I'm not trying to be bothersome. This docteam-forum rift doesn't exist and there's nothing to worry about. [06:56] Seems ever since linuxfest the people here in #ubuntu-doc have had a serious problem with the forums [06:57] SquishyWaffle: Thats fair. [06:57] oh i think it does === froud takes a ring-sides seat. Bets!!! anybody [06:57] froud: LOL, thats not terrible helpful. [06:57] ubuntu-geek: I spent all of my online time here and we work closely with the forums to find content for our documentation, I don't see this rift. === Seveas rings the bell for the first round [06:57] SquishyWaffle: it is not my intent to point fingers, seriously. [06:58] SquishyWaffle: I have no problems with the doc team. [06:58] ubuntu-geek: I think we can all agree that the forums play an important part of the community and we think it fosters said community. This is why some of us are upset right now. [06:58] It's because we CARE, not because we hate the forums :) [06:58] Squish: So exactly what is your problem then? Some people have titles you dont? [06:58] No, look at my original post, I said nothing about titles the entire time. This was a side issue brought up by another. [06:58] Ubuntu-geek, the concept of titles goes against the spirit of Ubuntu [06:58] Oh so now we dont care? [06:58] SquishyWaffle: Then we all care about the forums, *ducks* === froud agres with Seveas [06:59] So everyone should be moderators and administrators? [06:59] Ubuntu-geek, no [06:59] That's not what the post said. [06:59] It seems you guys are the only ones who are crying [06:59] Seveas: I dont think title are against the COC, i mean the "masters of the universe" title, ubuntu has plenty of titles, like developer, etc. [06:59] exactly, even people at canonical have titles [06:59] administrators/moderators are fine, but things like that respect-o-meter just don't belong in a community like this [06:59] We are the only ones "crying" because coming up and making posts that go against someone's wish is never fun and nobody wants to cause drama like this. [07:00] lol well it seems you do want drama [07:00] The "reputation" system is what bothered ME personally, and some others. Look at the thread when rep was initially implemented, one of your own moderators expressed alarm. [07:00] SquishyWaffle: It is not my intent to cause drama, it is my intent to communicate and bridge our gap. seriously i mean no ill will. [07:00] jdodson: I know, you've been helpful and understanding here. [07:00] And it has been stated that if IF IF IF the reputation system caused problems it would be removed, as far as titles no i will not remove them. [07:01] ubuntu-geek: I would classify said exchange of words a problem, no? [07:01] Ubuntu-geek: Right, that seems fair. [07:01] The titles were off-topic, that's another matter entirely. [07:02] SquishyWaffle: Right, so if there "is" an abuse, do you not think it would be a good time to handle it then and not now? [07:02] My gripe was that we are all here to encourage each other in helping and working towards our common goal. The reputation system could instead be replaced with something where you can reward people for helping rather than critique their posts. If it's not helpful, then no points. [07:03] Several popular support forums implement this method and it's both a fun and supportive way to encourage helping out. Some hold contests to see who can help the most people, etc. [07:03] SquishyWaffle: Interesting idea. I had heard of no such implementation. === froud bets 10 beers on SquishyWaffle [07:03]