[12:03] <squinn> Let's roll, guys.
[12:03] <Burgundavia> gah
[12:03] <mdke> length
[12:03] <mdke> cut the log thing if you like
[12:04] <Burgundavia> there
[12:04] <mdke> phew
[12:04] <mdke> right
[12:04] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:04] <mdke> are we gonna wait for jerome?
[12:04] <Burgundavia> that is the last changed
[12:04] <Burgundavia> sorry for the flood
[12:04] <mdke> the agenda is very long
[12:04] <mdke> perhaps we should start
[12:05] <hno73> do we have a chair? mdke? jerome?
[12:05] <mdke> maybe jerome wants to do it
[12:05] <hno73> ok
[12:06] <mdke> in any case, for those that want to take a look right now, the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamNextIRCMeeting
[12:07] <mdke> evening jeffsch 
[12:07] <jeffsch> howdy
[12:07] <mdke> we've just been introducing ourselves
[12:07] <squinn> I'm new to the project as I noted in #ubuntu-doc
[12:07] <squinn> And again, I'm Sean. 
[12:08] <Seveas> Howdy all :)
[12:08] <jeffsch> <- Jeff Schering
[12:08] <mpt> The more Seans, the merrier
[12:08] <Seveas> I am Dennis
[12:08] <squinn> I'm not trying to steal the limelight, and I'll shut up after this -- I'm just saying this for benefit of those not in #ubuntu-doc
[12:08] <mdke> mpt, :)
[12:08] <mpt> Same for Jeffs and Matthews
[12:08] <JonA> I'm also new, as I posted to ubuntu-doc list.
[12:08] <mpt> There can only be one Mako, though
[12:08] <Seveas> hehe :)
[12:08] <mdke> JonA, squinn, you're both very welcome
[12:08] <mdke> perhaps we should crack on
[12:09] <Seveas> First item: https://wiki.ubuntu.com//DocteamProjects
[12:10] <hno73> mdke: please go ahead
[12:10] <mako> i'm going to idle here.. since only part of the agenda concerns cc related stuff, i'm going to keep working on other stuff and reading the traffic
[12:10] <mdke> ok
[12:10] <mdke> yes let's deal with the first item
[12:10] <mako> please mention my name when it gets to cc stuff so i can become more active :)
[12:10] <mdke> mako, will do, thanks
[12:10] <mako> thank you :)
[12:11] <mdke> ok we have a number of projects on the page that Seveas posted
[12:11] <mdke> who thinks we can have them all ready?
[12:11] <BeerDump> ok
[12:11] <Burgundavia> how about taking this direction
[12:11] <mdke> hi bjs
[12:11] <froud> +1
[12:11] <Seveas> If no one did it yet: I was planning to port ubuntuguide to a wikipage in July
[12:11] <Burgundavia> we need somebody to take the lead for each project
[12:11] <jsgotangco> sorry
[12:12] <Burgundavia> Seveas, already in SVN
[12:12] <Seveas> ok
[12:12] <mdke> Burgundavia, I think that is a nice idea
[12:12] <Seveas> so someone did it :)
[12:12] <mdke> Seveas, froud did it, but it is not maintained there right now
[12:12] <jsgotangco> is mako online
[12:12] <Burgundavia> anything that doesn't have a lead doesn't get considered
[12:12] <mdke> so can people express opinions about Burgundavia's idea?
[12:13] <froud> +1
[12:13] <Seveas> but is not an official docteam member..
[12:13] <mdke> Seveas, not necessary
[12:13] <Seveas> ok
[12:13] <jsgotangco> theres no such thing as official in docteam at the moment :)
[12:13] <mdke> jsgotangco, what are your thoughts on Burgundavia's idea?
[12:14] <jsgotangco> all projects needs leads
[12:14] <jsgotangco> or else it won't go anywhere
[12:14] <yann_> +1
[12:14] <mdke> so there is general agreement
[12:14] <hno73> A person or a group should stay in regular contact with those "project owners" to monitor how things are going
[12:15] <mdke> hno73, ++
[12:15] <jdub> mdke: in the interests of making sure everything's top quality, i'd recommend dodging the administrator's guides for this release
[12:15] <gtaylor> Group leaders should post updates on the DocteamProjects page regularly as to the status of their project(s).
[12:15] <hno73> So that we don't fall behind by surprise
[12:15] <Seveas> that's the way the techboard is doing things too and since Ubuntu rocks, this seems to work :)
[12:15] <jsgotangco> hold on let me switch to my laptop
[12:15] <mdke> hno73, i think that the "status" should be more regularly updated, that would help
[12:15] <mdke> gtaylor, +
[12:15] <froud> jdub: +1
[12:15] <mdke> jdub, i tend to agree
[12:15] <hno73> jdub: agree
[12:15] <gtaylor> jdub: agree also
[12:15] <Seveas> ++jdub
[12:15] <JonA> gtaylor: agree.
[12:16] <mdke> shall we deal with the matter of who is prepared to take responsibility for projects this evening?
[12:16] <Seveas> mdke, I see no reason not to...
[12:16] <mdke> i would also like to discuss the question of other projects
[12:16] <jdub> mdke: (please ping me when you get to other projects) :)
[12:16] <mdke> an obvious one is the HelpfulHelp page
[12:16] <mdke> jdub, will do
[12:17] <mdke> ok before moving on to that, let's deal with the question of who can take responsibility for various projects
[12:17] <hno73> volunteers?
[12:17] <mdke> let's start with kde, it will be easy ;)
[12:17] <mdke> kde quickguide is already managed by jerome, i suggest that continues?
[12:17] <gtaylor> quickguide is nearing completion too
[12:18] <jsgotangco> mdke, its almost done gtaylor and troy can finish them :)
[12:18] <mdke> About Kubuntu, Kubuntu User Guide, Kubuntu Release Notes, Kynaptic User Manual ??
[12:18] <jsgotangco> most of the text atm are from them now
[12:18] <mdke> volunteers
[12:18] <judax> I will take a KDE project as well
[12:18] <mdke> jsgotangco, excellent :D
[12:18] <gtaylor> I'd be willing to take on Kynaptic but I heard something about it not moving upstream?
[12:18] <froud> there is also install guide
[12:18] <Burgundavia> kynpatic was quick hack
[12:19] <mdke> froud, good point
[12:19] <Burgundavia> I think that the stuff at FindingPackages will take over
[12:19] <mdke> good
[12:19] <judax> install PDF needs to get done
[12:19] <gtaylor> Burgundavio: Then is it necessary to maintain the kynaptic docs under ubuntu-docs?
[12:19] <mdke> judax, making formats is very easy when the document is there
[12:19] <Burgundavia> gtaylor, for now, we need something
[12:19] <mdke> in any case, we have plenty of volunteers for the kde docs, perhaps they can be divvied up later
[12:19] <Seveas> mdke, install guide is not mentioned at that page...
[12:20] <gtaylor> Burgundavia: I wrote a pretty thorough guide for it in quickguide
[12:20] <mdke> Seveas, thanks for pointing that out
[12:20] <mdke> Seveas, I will be happy to write up minutes of the meeting, that way it won't get forgotten
[12:20] <Seveas> nice
[12:20] <froud> install guide is gubuntu and kubuntuin one file
[12:21] <mdke> froud, we will come to that issue I'm sure
[12:21] <mdke> who is interested in helping out on the Gnome projects on that page
[12:21] <squinn> Lemme get this straight. Is the install guide = ubuntu guide[.org] ?
[12:21] <Seveas> install guide just covers the basics of partitioning, installing and pointers to starter docs imho
[12:21] <mdke> squinn, not at all
[12:21] <jsgotangco> squinn, no
[12:21] <JonA> mdke: I'm willing to help on the GNOME side.
[12:22] <Seveas> ubuntuguide is a page filled with misinformation...
[12:22] <mdke> JonA, great!
[12:22] <squinn> Then what are we talking about when we say ubuntu guide?
[12:22] <mdke> Seveas, we can come to that later too
[12:22] <squinn> I'm at DocTeamProjects, yet still confused.
[12:22] <froud> Seveas: yu can see it in FAQ Guide
[12:22] <mdke> JonA, do you have a particular document you are interested in from that page?
[12:22] <mdke> discount the administration guide
[12:23] <JonA> The User Guide or the About Ubuntu doc are fine by me.#
[12:23] <mdke> great
[12:23] <mdke> I am also prepared to contribute on the Gnome side
[12:23] <JonA> Considering it's my first contribution, the About Ubuntu doc might be better, it's shorter :-(
[12:23] <jdub> mdke: how will installer guide relate to existing installer documentation? user-centric vs. advanced?
[12:23] <mdke> jdub, i am not familiar with it, but froud can help you
[12:24] <Seveas> mdke, I envision a step-by-step document that explains a lot
[12:24] <froud> jdub: basic install is the default
[12:24] <jsgotangco> jdub, its pretty basic
[12:24] <jdub> mdke: note that this is not listed on that page
[12:24] <froud> branches in doc to more advanced
[12:24] <squinn> I'll be back later..I'll catch a log.
[12:24] <mdke> jdub, yes noted
[12:24] <mdke> anymore volunteers for those Gnome projects?
[12:25] <gtaylor> In a pinch I can help
[12:25] <mdke> don't forget the importance of gnome to Ubuntu :D
[12:25] <JonA> I'll attempt anything if needed...
[12:25] <judax> I can help too, where needed
[12:25] <Burgundavia> I will help but not take lead on anything
[12:25] <mdke> ok thanks for your interest all, i suggest we pursue this matter at a later stage
[12:25] <jdub> so the install guide you're talking about is like a 5 page "DON'T PANIC" thing?
[12:25] <mdke> as in, who is gonna take lead for what
[12:26] <froud> who takes lead on gubuntu user guide
[12:26] <hno73> let's post a list of orphaned projects in the meeting summary
[12:26] <mdke> hno73, +
[12:26] <jsgotangco> mdke, project leads can be discussed later
[12:26] <Seveas> jdub, well, plus some background info in appendices
[12:26] <mdke> jsgotangco, i agree
[12:26] <jsgotangco> we'll clean up the wiki page for now
[12:26] <hno73> jsgotangco: agree
[12:26] <Seveas> s/some/a lot where needed/
[12:26] <froud> jdub: first aim at 10 pages but can be expanded
[12:26] <mdke> let's move onto the next topic
[12:26] <jdub> froud: that's longer than basic coverage, and starts getting into existing documentation territory
[12:27] <Seveas> StyleGuide
[12:27] <mdke> I would like to postpone discussion of the Styleguide until after the third issue, given that hno73 has to leave soon
[12:27] <mdke> objections?
[12:27] <hno73> mdke: thanks
[12:27] <jsgotangco> ok
[12:27] <Seveas> ok
[12:27] <mdke> great
[12:27] <froud> jdub: graphic installer mostly pictures
[12:27] <mdke> ISSUE:  Create roadmap for future docteam - developer - community relations in future projects with the help of the Community Council
[12:27] <mdke> mako, jdub ping
[12:28] <jdub> mdke: you going to do 'other projects' later too?
[12:28] <mdke> jdub, yes
[12:28] <jdub> froud: i guess it might be better to state it as 'ubuntu express documentation'
[12:28] <mdke> jdub, straight after this then
[12:28] <mdke> jdub, my fault
[12:29] <mdke> mark brought this issue up at the CC after the recent problems on the list
[12:29] <jdub> mdke: only if that's what it's intended to be :-)
[12:29] <yann_> at ubuntu-fr, we got plenty of people just expecting someone to tell them want to translate. We would love someone from the english team to do that
[12:29] <yann_> -want +what
[12:29] <mdke> yann_, I am happy to do that
[12:29] <mdke> yann_, if you are around we can talk afterwards
[12:30] <hno73> We should have a set location to post WIP and set some dates where we invite devels to have a look
[12:30] <mako> sorry
[12:30] <hno73> (or other editors/proofreaders)
[12:31] <mdke> mark suggested at the council meeting that the docteam be encouraged to attend meetings and discuss issues there
[12:31] <froud> hno73: we would like docteam.u.c
[12:31] <hno73> froud: in what format? HTML pages?
[12:31] <froud> yes
[12:31] <mdke> ok these are two separate issues
[12:31] <mako> froud: i think that's reasonable
[12:31] <hno73> ok, generated from SVN
[12:31] <mdke> does anyone have anything to say on the Community Council front?
[12:32] <froud> yes
[12:32] <hno73> in some human readable format, whatever it is
[12:32] <froud> hno73: yes html  pages building from svn co
[12:33] <mako> froud: please go ahead
[12:33] <hno73> mako: do other teams report to CC at regular intervals?
[12:34] <hno73> how does that work? Is there a system we could model the interaction on?
[12:34] <mako> hno73: not normally. but they usually coordinate frequently with folks from the TB
[12:34] <hno73> right
[12:34] <mako> most teams are basically distro subprojects
[12:34] <mako> so they work closely with matt or others to track progress, etc
[12:34] <hno73> perhaps in this case we need a schedule
[12:34] <mako> sure
[12:35] <hno73> since the links are week ATM
[12:35] <hno73> weak
[12:35] <mako> perhaps the CC has been lacking in this regard and relationships to it's groups
[12:35] <mako> locos, docteam, forums, etc
[12:35] <hno73> could be, yes
[12:35] <mako> so, mark has said "come to the meetings" which is a pretty easy things to say
[12:36] <mako> communicate with me/elmo/mark/kamion.. maybe write up a few paragarphs of report for the wiki and try to have someone at the docteam
[12:36] <mako> sorry
[12:36] <mako> the CC meeting
[12:37] <mako> if people think that's useful, i'd be happy to ping a representative 2-3 days before meetings to remind folks
[12:37] <jsgotangco> i don't think teams really need to rely on the CC that much, just some direction i guess
[12:37] <mdke> i believe that it might be useful if there are disputes
[12:38] <mdke> is that what mark had in mind?
[12:38] <mako> mdke: i'm not sure
[12:38] <mako> but sure
[12:38] <jsgotangco> well disputes definitely can be directed towards the CC for sure
[12:38] <mako> if there are any disputes, the CC is a good place to elevate to
[12:38] <mako> that's what it's there for
[12:39] <mdke> :)
[12:39] <jsgotangco> anyway, going back, to the topic, the relations between teams like docteam are more technical oriented
[12:39] <mdke> Seveas, yes indeed
[12:39] <hno73> I'm just thinking that it would be good to have a schedule to work against, working backwards from the Breezy release date  
[12:40] <mdke> hno73, i agree, to some extent we work within breezy's roadmap
[12:40] <mdke> but we could be more specific
[12:40] <hno73> and that giving some reports to CC or TB might be a good way to measure progress
[12:40] <jdub> hno73: once the docteam gets into a rhythm, scheduling stuff can be reported back to go in the release schedule
[12:40] <Seveas> Project leader should make up their timeline
[12:40] <mako> i think all release coordination stuff should really go through the distro TB, eh jdub?
[12:40] <Seveas> and should release something together with Breezy
[12:40] <mako> or through jdub i guess
[12:41] <jdub> mako: TB
[12:41] <mako> so, in so far as something is a feature goal, it's a TB issue
[12:41] <mdke> yes
[12:41] <jsgotangco> yes
[12:41] <mako> in so far as it's a structual, advocacy, or intra or inter-team conflict, it's CC
[12:41] <jsgotangco> right
[12:41] <mdke> with the team so small, it may be difficult to structure roadmaps for each doc
[12:41] <mako> of course, i'm happy to help bat for you guys in other situation as well
[12:41] <mdke> but we can try maybe?
[12:42] <mako> mdke: it can be one larger roadmap that takes the different docs into account, no?
[12:42] <Seveas> mdke, well, if every doc has a leader (leaders might have more docs), all docs can have a roadmap too
[12:42] <mdke> mako, possibly
[12:42] <Seveas> most of these roadmap can be pretty similar though
[12:42] <mdke> mako, we certainly work within the breezy timeline 
[12:42] <mdke> hno73, night
[12:42] <Seveas> g'bye hno73 
[12:42] <hno73> goodnight all
[12:42] <jsgotangco> hno73, much appreciated you coming here
[12:43] <jsgotangco> ack
[12:43] <Seveas> :] 
[12:43] <elmo> mark's on his way, FWIW
[12:43] <mdke> great
[12:43] <mdke> before he gets here, shall we deal with the two issues we missed out?
[12:43] <Seveas> k
[12:43] <froud> yes
[12:43] <jsgotangco> styleguide
[12:43] <mdke> jsgotangco, sorry we missed something before that too
[12:43] <jdub> mdke: so, i'd suggest you not worry about a more detailed schedule than the distro one until you start seeing the requirements
[12:44] <Seveas> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide I presume?
[12:44] <mdke> ISSUE: other projects not mentioned on the project page (ping jdub, mpt)
[12:44] <sabdfl> evening all
[12:44] <jdub> mdke: go for style guide first
[12:44] <jsgotangco> sabdfl, hi
[12:44] <sabdfl> sorry for being very late
[12:44] <mpt> evening sabdfl
[12:44] <Nafallo> hi sabdfl 
[12:44] <Seveas> welcome sabdfl 
[12:44] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: could you summarise the current position for me please?
[12:45] <mdke> possibly we can finish off the Community Council discussion now
[12:45] <sabdfl> as per this meeting, i've read DocteamNextIRCMeeting
[12:45] <jsgotangco> mdke, can you summarise? i came in late as well *blushes*
[12:45] <mdke> sabdfl, we were just saying that we would be happy to interact with the CC
[12:45] <jsgotangco> (sorry about that)
[12:46] <mdke> sabdfl, what is it precisely that you had in mind?
[12:46] <mdke> (we're on the third bullet point from the top btw)
[12:46] <mdke> (Create roadmap for future docteam - developer - community relations in future projects with the help of the Community Council)
[12:46] <sabdfl> as the community grows, some stresses and strains are inevitable
[12:47] <sabdfl> i'd like to establish the idea that those are resolved as amicably as possible between groups, if necessary with the help of the CC
[12:47] <mdke> yes
[12:47] <mdke> the yelp business and the forum friction are examples
[12:47] <sabdfl> in this case, it seemed to me that we need to work harder to bring the doc team into the mainstream of the activities of the project
[12:47] <sabdfl> it's my mistake that i've missed this point till now, and i apologise
[12:47] <froud> +1
[12:48] <Seveas> +2
[12:48] <mdke> ++
[12:48] <gtaylor> +
[12:48] <sabdfl> we've seen excellent work being done
[12:48] <JonA> +1
[12:48] <mdke> i can speak for all when i say that we are happy to hear that
[12:48] <sabdfl> we've also seen some unnecessary frustration
[12:48] <sabdfl> there are a couple of principles i'd like to propose:
[12:48] <sabdfl>  - volunteers should feel they have the freedom to pursue whatever technical and substantial interests they have
[12:49] <sabdfl> if we can accomodate those with core infrastructure, we will, if not, we'll orgnaise Linode virtual servers so guys can get root somewhere and play to their hearts content
[12:49] <sabdfl> that said, we should have regular meetings, so we at least have a mutual idea of what our current interests are
[12:49] <sabdfl> from the CC side, we can lay out a roadmap of the project, and what issues will likely be important at different times
[12:50] <mdke> IMO it is important to keep a core methodology that is consistent with what -devel is doing
[12:50] <sabdfl> and from the teams, lay out the status and the skills on board, and their itches to be scratched
[12:50] <sabdfl> mdke: we can never guarantee consistency, but a lack of communication will certainly guarantee a lack of it :-)
[12:50] <mdke> sabdfl, communication is the big thing
[12:50] <sabdfl> i'm happy for someone to go off at a tangent
[12:50] <sabdfl> for all i know, that tangent is more interesting and more important than my own master plan
[12:51] <sabdfl> so good luck to you if that's where you're headed!
[12:51] <mdke> to what degree are these issues CC jurisdiction and TB jurisdiction?
[12:51] <sabdfl> but it's still useful to have at least an idea of what's going on
[12:51] <sabdfl> well, rather than thinking of "jurisdiction" think of areas of interest
[12:51] <mdke> sorry
[12:51] <mdke> habit
[12:52] <sabdfl> for example, from a CC point of view, i can tell you that Breezy is all about community, whereas Breezy+1 will be all about certification and support and training
[12:52] <mdke> i mean in terms of ensuring that the docteam working methodology works for -devel and vice versa
[12:52] <sabdfl> if that helps you set targets, excellent
[12:52] <sabdfl> by methodology do you mean tools?
[12:52] <mdke> i mean, what format of documents we are making, where it is to be published et
[12:52] <mdke> et/etc
[12:53] <sabdfl> mdke: TB is likely to have the strongest interest in that
[12:53] <sabdfl> the main thing is to see that even the -devel guys will have different opinions
[12:53] <jsgotangco> mdke, how we create our docs would be our own business but the formats needed in release would definitely be TB
[12:54] <sabdfl> so rather than getting into a frustrating yes! no! yes! no! dialog with one or two, this stuff should be framed as a formal proposition and brought to the whole TB
[12:54] <mdke> jsgotangco, yeah, but if we write profiled or qanda docs that are not viewable in yelp, we're gonna have a problem
[12:54] <sabdfl> i sensed there was a huge amount of frustration, and yet it had never been brought to the TB or CC
[12:54] <mdke> sabdfl, ++
[12:54] <sabdfl> that surprised me
[12:54] <sabdfl> mdke: kubuntu is just as important
[12:54] <mdke> sure
[12:54] <sabdfl> and yelp is not available everywhere
[12:55] <mdke> just an example
[12:55] <froud> sabdfl: the main break down happens when devel are not really listening to problems, docteam finds its own solution and the much later, after much effort, devels come back and want to digard the direction
[12:55] <sabdfl> i don't want to settle that debate here and now - that's the sort of thing that should be brought to the TB
[12:55] <mdke> ok
[12:55] <sabdfl> froud: i can appreciate that would piss people off in a significant way
[12:55] <sabdfl> so if that's happened i apologise
[12:55] <mdke> we just need to ensure it doesn't happen for the future, by building communication
[12:55] <sabdfl> i'm sure we can work out anything that needs working out for Breezy, if you put that on TB or CC agenda
[12:56] <froud> we need to resolve this issue tough
[12:56] <froud> jdub and I are not eye to eye at present
[12:56] <mdke> froud, specific issues can be discussed with the TB
[12:56] <sabdfl> i've said my piece on yelp, which is that AFAIK it is gnome-specific, and that doesn't sort out the needs of the broader ubuntu community
[12:56] <sabdfl> beyond that i'm not qualified, and even that is possibly and over simplification
[12:56] <sabdfl> so let's leave that to a proper discussion of the TB
[12:56] <froud> fair enough
[12:57] <mdke> yep
[12:57] <sabdfl> I would like the docteam guys to have someone present for TB and CC meetings
[12:57] <sabdfl> i would also like to ask them to ENSURE that we have something "big picture" on EVERY TB or CC meeting agenda
[12:57] <mdke> cool
[12:57] <sabdfl> by that, i mean that for each meeting we have something that relates to where we are going, why, what the big picture is
[12:57] <sabdfl> because that long range vision will mean we worry less about the times we stub our toe on a minor disagreement
[12:58] <sabdfl> because we know what's minor and what's major
[12:58] <mdke> ok we're making great progress
[12:58] <sabdfl> so hold us to that standard
[12:58] <froud> +1
[12:58] <jsgotangco> true enough
[12:58] <sabdfl> rather than just doing admin, appointing members and maintainers, we should be using those meetings to build more of a shared vision of what the project is about
[12:58] <froud> +1
[12:59] <sabdfl> a lot of that has happened in the regular face-to-face developer summits
[12:59] <sabdfl> at UDU we tried to capture more of that in a public media so we could all have it there to discuss
[12:59] <mdke> yeah
[12:59] <sabdfl> i hope that's helped
[12:59] <mdke> can we consider this issue resolved? everything on the agenda under the title "Issues to be discussed with Community Council and Developers" can be brought up at either TB or CC?
[12:59] <mako> i think that creating a process by which people interact more with folks like the TB and CC often will provide an avenue by which people won't be suprrised as much as will have a better way to deal with when they do
[12:59] <sabdfl> but we cna do even better
[12:59] <sabdfl> ok
[12:59] <sabdfl> so let's say that the doc team becomes a formal project team
[12:59] <sabdfl> we ask you to have regular meetings
[12:59] <sabdfl> we ask you to have someone from TB or CC present when you do
[01:00] <sabdfl> and to post a summary of those to -devel and -traffic (mako?)
[01:00] <sabdfl> and to attend the TB and CC meetings
[01:00] <mdke> that is an exciting prospect
[01:00] <mako> summaries of all meetings can go directly to -news in their own article
[01:00] <mako> they will be included in -traffic
[01:00] <mako> a meeting summary is news
[01:00] <sabdfl> and make sure we talk about real project vision and direction
[01:00] <mdke> we should address the issue of who is to do these summaries and administrative tasks?
[01:00] <mdke> we are not large in number
[01:01] <mdke> yet...
[01:01] <sabdfl> i'm happy to provide funding for a secretarial position, as enrico did
[01:01] <mako> ping me when you send something to news the first time and i'll moderate your message and whitelist you
[01:01] <jsgotangco> mdke, im happy to do it
[01:01] <jsgotangco> mdke, as i've been doing it for now
[01:01] <mdke> sabdfl, there you go :)
[01:01] <sabdfl> it was enrico that first alerted me to the current rash of issues, so i'd like to thank him for keeping an eye on what's going on
[01:01] <mdke> bravo enrico
[01:01] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: if there's a nice way we can support you, appropriately, let me know
[01:01] <jsgotangco> yes enrico is very much avisibly active
[01:02] <jsgotangco> sabdfl, will do, thanks.
[01:02] <sabdfl> i've asked hno73 (henrik omma) to be a regular point of contact
[01:02] <sabdfl> but remember, you are a real team that has real authority in the project, and you actually report to the CC not to any individual
[01:02] <sabdfl> in time i'd like you to choose a team lead, but i think it's too soon for that now
[01:03] <sabdfl> one thing about that authority
[01:03] <mdke> a team secretary is great
[01:03] <mdke> like enrico
[01:03] <sabdfl> sometimes you'll find new guys come along and want to do things differnetly
[01:03] <sabdfl> don't put them down
[01:03] <froud> +1
[01:03] <jsgotangco> yes, i've already encountered that in edubuntu :)
[01:03] <sabdfl> i've noticed a little bit of "we're the bosses round here"
[01:03] <sabdfl> live and let live
[01:03] <mdke> i agree
[01:04] <sabdfl> by being bestorganised and most focused you'll effectively lead all doc efforts, but don't try to block other efforts
[01:04] <sabdfl> in the same way you bristled when someone with an @ubuntu.com email said "crapola", the new guys might feel the same way
[01:04] <sabdfl> and speaking of which, how many of you are members now?
[01:05] <sabdfl> ?
[01:05] <jsgotangco> we currently have 4 active svn committers
[01:05] <sabdfl> mdke: ?
[01:05] <mdke> sabdfl, my key is not in the strong set
[01:05] <froud> 6
[01:05] <sabdfl> key is not needed for membership, only maintainership
[01:05] <gtaylor> hopefully someday
[01:05] <mdke> sabdfl, a signed CoC is needed
[01:05] <sabdfl> if you are a member, you can get an @ubuntu.com email
[01:05] <sabdfl> mdke: you can sign on paper and fax it
[01:06] <mako> mdke: quite a few people do
[01:06] <mdke> i will do that
[01:06] <mdke> although I'd like to get the key signed too :D
[01:06] <froud> sabdfl: what is the purpose of this?
[01:06] <sabdfl> it's not a canonical ltd thing, email@ubuntu.com is the project
[01:06] <sabdfl> froud: of opening up the email addresses?
[01:06] <froud> yes
[01:06] <Seveas> mdke, if you happen to live near Amsterdam, I can sign it :)
[01:06] <sabdfl> ubuntu is much bigger than canonical, i believe
[01:06] <mdke> Seveas, i'm in london
[01:07] <mdke> Seveas, but its an excuse for a holiday...
[01:07] <Seveas> lol :)
[01:07] <froud> sabdfl: why do I need another adress
[01:07] <sabdfl> i hope soon to nominate someone outside of canonical to the CC, and those of you who are members will be voting to conrim or veto that nomination
[01:07] <sabdfl> froud: you can ask for it to forward to your existing one, or just not activate it
[01:07] <sabdfl> it's simply there for those who want it
[01:07] <mdke> ok we're going OT a little
[01:07] <jsgotangco> ok ok, i think we're going way out of topic
[01:07] <froud> Hmmmm, so this is a token tick thing?
[01:07] <mdke> can we close this issue now
[01:08] <mdke> lots more on the agenda
[01:08] <froud> yes mv on
[01:08] <sabdfl> happy with item 3?
[01:08] <mdke> i am
[01:08] <froud> +1
[01:08] <judax> +1
[01:08] <sabdfl> ok
[01:08] <mdke> jdub, other projects now?
[01:08] <sabdfl> w.r.t. svn access rights, how many of you have played with Baz?
[01:08] <jsgotangco> i did
[01:08] <gtaylor> not I but I know some svn
[01:09] <froud> me
[01:09] <froud> sucks
[01:09] <froud> is it tla or baz
[01:09] <sabdfl> froud: i use it every day, and it's made a huge difference to team workflow on LP
[01:09] <froud> cant decide
[01:09] <jsgotangco> we barely use 10% of what svn can do
[01:09] <mdke> is either jdub or mpt around?
[01:09] <mdke> or jeffsch ?
[01:09] <mpt> yup
[01:09] <jdub> mdke: i am
[01:10] <mdke> ah ok
[01:10] <mdke> NEXT ISSUE: projects that are not on the official projects page. An obvious one is to be found here http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
[01:10] <sabdfl> baz is the butterfly emerging from the caterpillar that was tla :-)
[01:10] <jeffsch> yep
[01:10] <sabdfl> wait hold on, there's a reason i brought it up
[01:10] <mdke> k
[01:10] <sabdfl> it seems the problem you are having is a social one, not a tech one
[01:10] <sabdfl> about permissions
[01:10] <jsgotangco> yes
[01:10] <mpt> mdke: HelpfulHelp needs approving by sabdfl or someone, it might be complete crack as it is currently :-)
[01:10] <sabdfl> distributed revision control greatly reduces that
[01:10] <sabdfl> anybody who wants to start making changes can just create a branch, then other people can merge from them and commit
[01:11] <Seveas> mpt, indeed, I see some serious wrongnesses in that page
[01:11] <mdke> mpt, but you intend it to be a docteam project right?
[01:11] <jsgotangco> sabdfl, the current process is that we ask enrico to ask froud for svn access to someone we recommend
[01:11] <mpt> mdke: for sure
[01:11] <froud> sabdfl: you want us to move to baz
[01:11] <sabdfl> it takes a little getting used to, but it's seriously worthwhile
[01:11] <jsgotangco> i mean ask elmo
[01:11] <mdke> mpt, lets put this on hold for a minute until the baz question is over
[01:11] <sabdfl> froud: yes, i'd like you to evaluate it
[01:11] <jdub> long term, it will be hard to avoid baz
[01:11] <froud> sabdfl: most ppl found it hard using svn :_0
[01:11] <sabdfl> it means that there's much less of a blockage around svn commit permissions
[01:11] <jdub> it will be the best way for doc people to work with upstream documentation
[01:12] <sabdfl> froud: good point, ad baz is conceptually harder
[01:12] <froud> sabdfl: I like the mirrors from tla
[01:12] <Seveas> Well, then the docteam sould make baz docs :)
[01:12] <froud> and technically it is better solution
[01:12] <gtaylor> sabdfl: svn is definitely challenging for some of the more non-technical writers, if Baz is moderately more complex even conceptually, I'd recommend against it. But then again, I've never used Baz.
[01:12] <jsgotangco> froud, we can probably evaluate baz for now and target the use for it in the future release post-breezy
[01:12] <sabdfl> gtaylor: it is more difficult, but then, it's a sure-fire candidate for some doc-team love
[01:12] <mdke> jsgotangco, ++
[01:12] <froud> gtaylor: you are right
[01:13] <gtaylor> Some people take being able to commit and change things easily for granted. There are people who want to help but are scared away by technicalities.
[01:13] <sabdfl> i thin you could setup a workflow which says:
[01:13] <sabdfl>  - ANYBODY can contribute. just (a) baz get http://docs.ubuntu.com/docs@ubuntu.com/docs--current--0
[01:13] <sabdfl> (b) edit
[01:14] <mdke> the possibility of a change in methods can be evaluated, but the project of getting docs together should not be slowed down as that is the short term breezygoal
[01:14] <sabdfl> (c) baz commit -s "my changes"
[01:14] <sabdfl> then ask for a merge
[01:14] <sabdfl> ok
[01:14] <jdub> sabdfl: it introduces new social problems too :)
[01:14] <gtaylor> That's similar to the way things are now, we email patches in whereas we'd be requesting a merge.
[01:14] <sabdfl> don't let baz get in the way, but please make a note of it as the recommended way to break revision control blockages
[01:14] <JonA> Would it be worthwhile me nailing together a couple of simple shell scripts to make using Baz simpler for those less technical writers?
[01:14] <sabdfl> we will move the ENTIRE distro into baz over the coming months
[01:14] <Seveas> gtaylor, but emailing patches is way more overhead
[01:14] <sabdfl> so ANYBODY can fork and merge an ubuntu package
[01:15] <Seveas> sabdfl, wow!
[01:15] <gtaylor> That's interesting
[01:15] <Seveas> that's, well...., awesome!
[01:15] <sabdfl> we will provide a tool called HCT, currently in alpha testing, that makes this possible
[01:15] <froud> yo dudes
[01:15] <judax> that is indeed interesting
[01:15] <sabdfl> OT
[01:15] <mdke> ok can somebody open a thread about this on the list?
[01:15] <froud> slow down
[01:15] <froud> stop a sec
[01:15] <froud> the bottleneck
[01:15] <froud> its not svn
[01:15] <froud> its elmo
[01:16] <froud> it is not a technical problem
[01:16] <elmo> err?
[01:16] <froud> hello elmo
[01:16] <jsgotangco> heh
[01:16] <mdke> it is simply a matter of getting people commit access
[01:16] <elmo> I've had 3 requests recently, the first of which was on Tuesday
[01:16] <gtaylor> elmo: Not in a bad way, you're a busy guy :0
[01:16] <mdke> (he means)
[01:16] <sabdfl> froud: any system that is designed to filter all requests through one person is broken by design
[01:16] <froud> thanks mdke 
[01:16] <elmo> the second of which (for two accounts) was sent 4 hours ago
[01:16] <froud> hy must it be one person
[01:17] <mdke> elmo, its not your fault!! we are just thinking about the system
[01:17] <sabdfl> because elmo is our sysadmin, and carries it solo (heriically) at the moment
[01:17] <mdke> elmo, froud phrased that slightly wrong
[01:17] <sabdfl> heroically, i meant
[01:17] <Nafallo> elmo rocks! :-=
[01:17] <Nafallo> :-)
[01:17] <sabdfl> with baz, any one can manage mainstream, and merge from everyone else
[01:18] <jsgotangco> ok requesting commit access to elmo is a trivial issue, i think what's more important is choosing people to actually have commit access to our current svn
[01:18] <mdke> to be honest, i don't see a problem with obtaining approval for people getting commit access
[01:18] <sabdfl> you won't have any bottleneck at the center
[01:18] <mdke> ok
[01:18] <sabdfl> it won't scale to have to ask elmo all the time
[01:18] <mdke> postpone to the list please
[01:18] <jsgotangco> i can just email elmo about people we can sponsor for commit
[01:18] <mdke> we have lots of issues left on the agenda
[01:18] <sabdfl> i would rather you setup an  svn server on a linode box and administered it yourselves
[01:18] <jsgotangco> good point
[01:18] <Nafallo> sabdfl++
[01:18] <gtaylor> sabdfl: That would be nice
[01:18] <jsgotangco> i'll put that in consideration
[01:19] <sabdfl> ok
[01:19] <jsgotangco> ok close the svn issue for now
[01:19] <gtaylor> agree
[01:19] <jsgotangco> this is workable
[01:19] <sabdfl> elmo's in my kitchen, and says he will hanle any request within 72 hours
[01:19] <sabdfl> if that doesn't happen, let me know
[01:19] <mdke> we have no problem with elmo, he is fast, and reachable in irc
[01:19] <sabdfl> but a better system will be either for you to admin it, or to use a distributed RCS like baz
[01:20] <mdke> lets get back to the issue of mpt's spec on udu
[01:20] <jsgotangco> ok
[01:20] <mdke> mpt, you were saying?
[01:20] <sabdfl> url?
[01:20] <mdke> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
[01:20] <mpt> I was saying that no-one's approved it yet, so it might need huge changes, I don't know
[01:20] <mdke> sabdfl, the issue to be addressed is the adequacy of the docteam projects currently on https://wiki.ubuntu.com//DocteamProjects, and what other projects the docteam can do
[01:21] <mdke> (ping jdub)
[01:21] <jdub> (here)
[01:21] <mdke> jdub, you were saying a while ago that you had some ideas about projects for the team, and that you would email them
[01:21] <mdke> you have the floor
[01:22] <jdub> ok, ok
[01:22] <jdub> oh, ok rather
[01:22] <jsgotangco> hah
[01:23] <jdub> so i've spent a bit of time over the last couple of weeks researching the team, speaking to some of you, and looking for ways to help get docteam and developers more acquainted, and finding rad goals for docteam
[01:24] <jdub> most of this i'll leave to email, but i wanted to raise one project idea which i think will have a big impact on breezy
[01:24] <jdub> everything listed on the projects page is about *writing* documentation
[01:24] <jdub> which is incredibly hard stuff
[01:25] <jdub> and doesn't go all the way towards giving our users the best documentation experience in ubuntu
[01:25] <jdub> meanwhile, we have enormous amounts of existing documentation available
[01:25] <jdub> we just need to understand it, organise it, integrate it
[01:25] <jdub> we made the first steps on this before warty was released
[01:26] <jdub> by ensuring that documentation registered with the debian doc system was registered with scrollkeeper (thus the html docs like mutt in your yelp)
[01:26] <jdub> but that was an easy, first step fix
[01:26] <jdub> and we can do more to get all of our docs integrated into yelp and khelpcenter
[01:27] <jdub> the first step, on that, is analysis of what we've got
[01:28] <mdke> what sort of docs are we talking about here? stuff on forums/wiki, or upstream?
[01:28] <mdke> both maybe?
[01:28] <jdub> mdke: everything in packages
[01:28] <mdke> ah ok the latter
[01:28] <jdub> the in-distro user experience
[01:29] <jdub> now the great thing about focusing on this is that it naturally tends toward working with the rest of the devel community :)
[01:29] <mdke> yes
[01:29] <sabdfl> mpt: big picture, that's a great spec
[01:29] <sabdfl> jdub: i think you've hit the nail on the head - there's a tremendous amount of low hanging fruit out there. perhaps the hardest part is the stuff which requires integration with the distro, because that requires both doc skills and packagin skills, and lord knows how rarely those overlap :-)
[01:29] <mpt> sabdfl, thanks
[01:29] <mdke> technical skills are required definitely
[01:30] <jdub> mdke: not too much, you know - it's pretty easy stuff
[01:30] <mdke> cool
[01:30] <froud> jdub the main question is a technical one what format to ship
[01:30] <froud> we already register to scrollkeeper
[01:30] <jgotangco> (sorry bad dsl)
[01:30] <jdub> mdke: and there are different kinds of docs for people to focus on
[01:31] <mdke> jsgotangco, will paste you some stuff
[01:31] <jdub> froud: nono, totally unrelated to understanding what we have
[01:31] <froud> yes
[01:31] <froud> and no
[01:31] <froud> later
[01:31] <jdub> what we have will impact it
[01:31] <froud> discuss with you later jdub
[01:32] <froud> or you want it now
[01:32] <jdub> no
[01:32] <froud> ok
[01:32] <mdke> would you be prepared to head up a group of docteam members prepared to investigate this idea?
[01:32] <mdke> jdub ^
[01:32] <jdub> mdke: hopefully hno can help out
[01:33] <jdub> mdke: i can definitely provide help, but won't be able to spend time dedicated to it
[01:33] <mdke> we can ask him
[01:33] <jdub> sorry
[01:33] <mdke> understood
[01:33] <mdke> have you discussed the idea with henrik?
[01:33] <jdub> dedicated to leading it
[01:33] <jdub> not in detail, but he has a pretty good idea of what i've been thinking about
[01:34] <mdke> cool
[01:34] <mdke> ok so shall we follow this issue up on the list?
[01:34] <jdub> i think it will be more clear with email
[01:34] <froud> jdub: I think email of the idea will be a good start
[01:34] <froud> snap :-)
[01:34] <mdke> great minds think alike
[01:35] <jdub> so in german, they say 'two fools, same thought'
[01:35] <mdke> ok now onto mpt's spec
[01:36] <mdke> is everyone aware of it?
[01:36] <mdke> Burgundavia, you around?
[01:36] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:36] <mdke> :)
[01:37] <mdke> the issue is, can this spec become a docteam project, and how can it be worked on
[01:37] <jdub> mdke: can i delve into a couple of technical points?
[01:37] <jdub> (about this)
[01:37] <mdke> shoot
[01:37] <jdub> thanks
[01:38] <jdub> (now, where to start...)
[01:38] <mdke> froud, http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
[01:38] <jdub> hmm
[01:38] <froud> at the start
[01:38] <jdub> ok, so this will be the first-entry page of yelp
[01:38] <jdub> (this or something very similar to it)
[01:39] <jdub> so rather than having a funny indexish thing
[01:39] <jdub> you'll actually have a document as the front page
[01:39] <jdub> yelp will come with one
[01:39] <mdke> that is mpt's idea, although my view is that this would exclude the other docs unnecessarily
[01:39] <jdub> but we can branch it and do whatever we like with it
[01:39] <jdub> if anyone's seen apple's one, think very similar to it
[01:40] <Burgundavia> we can manage the implementation of it and keep whomever does develop it on the straight and narrow
[01:40] <sabdfl> jdub: we can't limit ourselves to yelp in this discussion
[01:40] <jdub> essentially, this document is the user guide, which can focus on topics of interest rather than applications
[01:40] <jdub> sabdfl: getting to it
[01:41] <sabdfl> i think our focus now should be on things people can view in a web browser and print out
[01:41] <jdub> so can include lots of useful ubuntu-specific and topic-oriented stuff
[01:41] <mpt> mdke: Researching this was very depressing ... It turns out that if people can't find what they're looking for straight away, they just *give up*. So the user docs need to look like *one* set of docs, even if they're linking off to the Web or whatever. We can't expect people to look in doc X and then doc Y and then doc Z.
[01:41] <jdub> sabdfl: that's getting into a much deeper discussion
[01:41] <sabdfl> mpt: we really need a docs-google
[01:41] <jdub> but can also provide navigation for other documentation
[01:41] <sabdfl> navigation will always let us down, unless we have real context (as in the widget in the app that the guy is using)
[01:41] <mpt> sabdfl: Yes, one that also works offline :-)
[01:42] <mdke> mpt, yeah i see your point
[01:42] <sabdfl> mpt: local app, of course
[01:42] <jdub> sabdfl: that's getting way off track
[01:42] <sabdfl> google on the desktop
[01:42] <jgotangco> beagle?
[01:42] <sabdfl> yes it is, but starting to talk about yelp futurisms is equally off base now
[01:42] <mdke> jsgotangco!
[01:42] <froud> sabdfl: google api wsdl
[01:42] <mpt> I also discovered that people usually don't bother with tables of contents, so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp will need simplifying
[01:42] <mdke> jsgotangco, on topic pls
[01:42] <jdub> sabdfl: i'm sorry, but we're not
[01:42] <mpt> (of course, currently with yelp they have no choice)
[01:42] <sabdfl> froud: it needs to be an app on the desktop, like beagle
[01:43] <sabdfl> b
[01:43] <sabdfl> (00:39:31) jdub: you'll actually have a document as the front page
[01:43] <sabdfl> (00:39:40) jdub: yelp will come with one
[01:43] <sabdfl> looks like a yelp futurism to me :-)
[01:43] <jdub> so sabdfl needs more context
[01:43] <jdub> yelp in GNOME 2.12 will use a document instead of an index as its front page
[01:44] <mpt> rock
[01:44] <jdub> mpt is thinking in very similar terms to shaunm
[01:44] <jdub> also, but less likely, is beagle integration in yelp
[01:44] <mdke> ok
[01:44] <mdke> the issue is, is this spec doable
[01:45] <mdke> and if so, where to put the other documentation
[01:45] <jdub> mdke: if the user guide is written with this in mind, yes.
[01:45] <jdub> mdke: ie. it's both a topic-oriented document (the actual content) *and* a way of navigating to other documents
[01:45] <froud> I think this needs greater considration
[01:46] <froud> jdub: nothing in lin docs gnome or kde is topic help like described by mpt
[01:46] <jdub> mdke: also, it could be done independently of the user guide
[01:46] <froud> mpt has the right idea
[01:46] <jdub> froud: the content in user guide generally is
[01:46] <sabdfl> i don't think this spec is doable for breezy
[01:46] <jdub> the infrastructure for it is not
[01:46] <froud> but no lin docs are written that way at presnet
[01:46] <froud> no user guide is manual
[01:46] <mpt> sabdfl: You mean the "Suggested Breezy goals" section by itself is too ambitious?
[01:46] <froud> a bool
[01:46] <froud> book
[01:47] <sabdfl> i think we need to focus on the first thing jdub raised, which is organising and presenting and coordinating the bulk of docs which are already available
[01:47] <froud> yes
[01:47] <jsgotangco> yes! i've rasied that before!
[01:47] <jsgotangco> raised
[01:47] <froud> how to get all the stuff in wiki to docbook
[01:47] <sabdfl> no the breezy goals part is ok, i guess
[01:47] <froud> how to maintain it
[01:47] <froud> once sorted
[01:47] <sabdfl> froud: +1
[01:47] <jdub> froud: that's a separate issue
[01:47] <mdke> froud, that is changing the subject wholly
[01:48] <froud> I think you are biting more than you can chew now
[01:48] <froud> this needs more consideration and discussion
[01:48] <mdke> i tend to agree as far as the HelpfulHelp is concerned
[01:48] <froud> thi sforum wont ball it an dbag it
[01:48] <mdke> the idea is good, but it will require some work
[01:48] <jdub> guys, lots of conflation here
[01:49] <jdub> 1. project to analyse and collate existing in-distro documentation
[01:49] <sabdfl> jdub: as you said, "where to begin"? 
[01:49] <jdub> ^ we've already talked about it, i'll follow up with email
[01:49] <sabdfl> this is a huge topic, we are all tired
[01:49] <froud> sabdfl: +1
[01:49] <sabdfl> i think we need to start with the tiny part of HelpfulHelp that is currently BreezyGoals
[01:49] <jdub> mpt's proposal is harder to discuss because we'll have something reasonably similar to it in breezy anyway
[01:49] <sabdfl> and flesh that out into a real plan
[01:49] <sabdfl> a lot of that plan should involve the low-hanging fruit jdub identified
[01:50] <sabdfl> inasmuch as yelp's front document will change, we need to see that and start to massage it as needed
[01:50] <sabdfl> we need to address froud's question about the framework for writing docs ina collaborative web driven way
[01:50] <sabdfl> but publishing to book or web
[01:50] <sabdfl> that's more than enough for breezy
[01:50] <mdke> ok so the general consensus seems to be to work within the current projects for now, am I wrong?
[01:51] <froud> wiki
[01:51] <froud> there is tons of stuff there
[01:51] <froud> focus
[01:51] <froud> current projects
[01:51] <froud> aim at these goals
[01:52] <jsgotangco> yes these are very doable for now
[01:52] <froud> our core role is to make the content
[01:52] <froud> discuss yelp etc in mail
[01:52] <mdke> good
[01:52] <mdke> moving on
[01:52] <jsgotangco> ok anything more
[01:52] <mdke> quick interim issue before moving on to the styleguide. 
[01:52] <jdub> whoa, whoa
[01:52] <froud> docbook and be repurposed to make fit
[01:52] <jdub> core role is not to *make* the content
[01:53] <mdke> jdub, he is referring to the projects on https://wiki.ubuntu.com//DocteamProjects
[01:53] <jdub> maybe i should just address this in email
[01:53] <froud> ok jdub what is our core role then
[01:53] <jdub> n/m
[01:53] <froud> jdub: you have a good idea I also like what mpt is saying
[01:54] <froud> but we cant ball it and bag it here
[01:54] <jdub> no, those are unrelated
[01:54] <jdub> was answering that particular phrase
[01:54] <jdub> will leave it to mail
[01:54] <froud> one of the tasks henrik had was to move docs from wiki in to docbook and svn
[01:54] <froud> we are awaiting a list of these docs
[01:54] <mdke> froud, 1. that is not his task, and 2. that is not on the agenda
[01:55] <froud> is there an update
[01:55] <mdke> we will work on it now that the new wiki is up
[01:55] <froud> Port wiki docs - we would like to port a number of stable docs from wiki to docbook. Need a list of such docs and process for managing the port and subsequent update of such documents. See here: ./doc
[01:55] <froud> from the agenda
[01:55] <sabdfl> ok, guys, we are losing the thread here. let's ajourn, we've made good progress
[01:55] <mdke> froud, we agreed that that section of the agenda was to be postponed
[01:56] <jsgotangco> froud, yes but we'll talk to henrik about it as well
[01:56] <mdke> i'm beginning to lose steam here
[01:56] <sabdfl> next step, a plan from jdub, a plan from froud, and we'll put those together at a CC level with the doc team
[01:56] <jsgotangco> ok
[01:56] <jsgotangco> moving on
[01:56] <jsgotangco> sabdfl, any closing before we adjourn
[01:56] <mdke> we haven't dealt with the styleguide
[01:56] <froud> sabdfl: a plan on what
[01:56] <jsgotangco> mdke, styleguide is a docteam issue for now
[01:56] <mdke> this is a docteam meeting
[01:57] <jsgotangco> yes but its quite specific and other people are here
[01:57] <mdke> ok i give up
[01:57] <jsgotangco> ill prioritize it next meeting
[01:57] <sabdfl> froud: a plan on the specific things i highlighted above, plus whatever you think is important
[01:57] <mdke> sorry for jeffsch tho
[01:57] <sabdfl> mdke: sorry, i've lost my brains for the night ssomewhere
[01:57] <mdke> me too ;)
[01:57] <mpt> thanks for your time, sabdfl
[01:58] <sabdfl> if you  guys want to continue on docteam formats and tools and plans, please go ahead
[01:58] <mdke> i'll second that
[01:58] <sabdfl> i've got to pack it in
[01:58] <sabdfl> getting old
[01:58] <mdke> thanks sabdfl 
[01:58] <jsgotangco> ok
[01:58] <jsgotangco> much appreciated
[01:58] <sabdfl> night all
[01:58] <gtaylor> see you later
[01:58] <judax> sabdfl: take care
[01:58] <jsgotangco> anything else
[01:59] <froud> mdke: style what about it
[01:59] <mdke> if you wanna deal with the agenda items, i'm here
[01:59] <jeffsch> no time for me. I must go to school now
[01:59] <mdke> otherwise, tell me and i will go to bed
[01:59] <froud> mdke: shoot dude
[01:59] <judax> let's finish the agenda
[01:59] <froud> style
[01:59] <froud> or what ever
[01:59] <jsgotangco> ok
[01:59] <mdke> we need jeffsch for that
[02:00] <mdke> remember for next meeting
[02:00] <jsgotangco> styleguide is basically out for contribs
[02:00] <froud> ok >
[02:00] <mdke> sorry jeffsch :(
[02:00] <jsgotangco> yes i'll arrange for that
[02:00] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, really sorry about this
[02:00] <jeffsch> i'll live!
[02:00] <mdke> :-(
[02:00] <jsgotangco> i'll look into styleguide tonite
[02:00] <jsgotangco> mdke, have you seen the styleguide
[02:01] <mdke> no
[02:01] <froud> whats left
[02:01] <jeffsch> ok. see you all later
[02:01] <mdke> bye
[02:01] <jsgotangco> ok
[02:01] <jsgotangco> anything else
[02:01] <mdke> i think the process for new member access should also be discussed, bullet point 4
[02:01] <mdke> do we still go through enrico?
[02:02] <froud> mdke: may I
[02:02] <mdke> mpt, yeah i cringed
[02:02] <mdke> froud, course
[02:02] <froud> the way we accept committers
[02:02] <mpt> That Seventies Wiki
[02:02] <mdke> mpt, mental note to rib hno73 about it
[02:02] <froud> is that we wait to get a few patches
[02:02] <mdke> naturally
[02:02] <froud> see what the person is about
[02:03] <froud> get to know them
[02:03] <froud> then any of us who
[02:03] <mdke> but in order to get them access, enrico must confirm, at the present time
[02:03] <mdke> are we gonna stick with that?
[02:03] <froud> feels that the person shoul dbe a committer
[02:03] <froud> yes
[02:03] <mdke> is enrico still gonna be available?
[02:04] <froud> person sends public pgp to nominator
[02:04] <jsgotangco> we can ask him
[02:04] <froud> who fwd to enrico
[02:04] <froud> enrico collects them and send to elmo
[02:04] <mdke> yep ok
[02:04] <mdke> so basically, we can ask him if he is still happy to play this role
[02:05] <froud> he does that and our debian
[02:05] <froud> (packaging)
[02:05] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:05] <mdke> the question of who is to package will also need to be raised later on
[02:05] <mdke> but we can leave it for now IMO
[02:05] <froud> bless his cotton socks
[02:06] <froud> enrico does it but anyone who knows the packaing system can do it
[02:06] <jsgotangco> would it be ok to ask him what he can do/what he can't?
[02:06] <mdke> yeah
[02:06] <froud> if he is not aorund then mdz
[02:06] <mdke> my guess is the packaging issue can be sorted by the TB
[02:06] <froud> mdz then delegates
[02:06] <froud> ok
[02:06] <jsgotangco> there's also the issue in bugzilla
[02:06] <mdke> jsgotangco, good point
[02:07] <froud> ppl seem not to like bz
[02:07] <jsgotangco> froud, yes, but that is not the point
[02:07] <froud> sorry 
[02:07] <froud> what is the point
[02:07] <mdke> that bugs are reported
[02:07] <mdke> and need to be assigned
[02:07] <froud> where?
[02:07] <mdke> in bugzilla
[02:07] <froud> where?
[02:07] <froud> hmmm ppl dont like bz
[02:07] <froud> some want malone
[02:08] <mdke> well for now the reality is that there is a documentation section
[02:08] <froud> that is why they dont use it
[02:08] <froud> yes
[02:08] <froud> unused
[02:08] <mdke> bleh
[02:08] <froud> so we need to decide
[02:08] <froud> bz or malone
[02:08] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:08] <froud> I dont care which
[02:09] <mdke> we don't need to decide right now
[02:09] <mdke> that is also a TB issue IMO
[02:09] <froud> fine
[02:09] <jsgotangco> do we still get bug reports in bz through enrico?
[02:09] <froud> no
[02:09] <mdke> afaik he is the default assignee still yes
[02:09] <froud> you open a bz account and monitor
[02:10] <froud> yes
[02:10] <mpt> I'm reasonably sure I'm not giving away any secrets when saying that Ubuntu as a whole is migrating to Malone after Breezy
[02:10] <froud> I would prefer a mailing list
[02:11] <mdke> ok have we had enough on this issue?
[02:11] <jsgotangco> we'll consider that then
[02:11] <mdke> investigate with enrico for now
[02:11] <froud> sure
[02:11] <jsgotangco> we'll have an overhaul of our structure
[02:11] <froud> cool
[02:11] <froud> next >
[02:11] <mdke> i have an issue :p
[02:12] <jsgotangco> sure
[02:12] <mdke> is froud back on the team?
[02:12] <froud> shoot
[02:12] <froud> just visiting
[02:12] <mdke> yeah?
[02:12] <froud> I must get things sorted between me an jdub
[02:12] <mdke> an aweful lots of "we" and "our" flying around froud ;)
[02:12] <froud> until I see that I am mot going to be ful gas in neutral I an just visiting
[02:12] <mdke> you are back
[02:13] <jsgotangco> he can call you up if you want to
[02:13] <mpt> heh
[02:13] <mdke> right, re: the wiki->svn thing, I'll follow up in email over the next few days
[02:13] <mdke> let's get the docteam list buzzing again
[02:13] <jsgotangco> ok anything more
[02:14] <jsgotangco> sorry for being late btw
[02:14] <jsgotangco> i'll make up with this by creating the summary (uh oh) since i called the meeting in the first place
[02:14] <jsgotangco> mdke, thanks for pitching in
[02:14] <froud> I want the team focused on svn
[02:14] <mdke> froud, ?
[02:15] <mdke> [01:11:57]  froud: just visiting
[02:15] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:15] <froud> on the targets and to leave the noise
[02:15] <froud> wiki > svn very important
[02:15] <froud> and svn > wiki
[02:15] <froud> but I think this is TB
[02:15] <froud> thanks
[02:15] <froud> is that it?
[02:15] <jsgotangco> ok before that
[02:15] <jsgotangco> wait
[02:15] <jsgotangco> froud, do you suggest we just stay in svn
[02:15] <jsgotangco> because if we do, we'll have to manage our own svn in the future
[02:16] <mdke> jsgotangco, not now...
[02:16] <froud> you mean baz vs svn story
[02:16] <jdub> mdke: keep in mind that everything will eventually be in baz, whether you guys use svn now or not
[02:16] <jsgotangco> just a yes or no :)
[02:16] <mdke> jdub, everything, as in everything?
[02:16] <jsgotangco> everything
[02:16] <mdke> gentoo-doc use cvs
[02:16] <jdub> mdke: but it doesn't really matter now, we're not doing a lot of upstream doc work
[02:17] <jdub> mdke: ok, so, imagine this
[02:17] <jdub> gnome-panel comes with documentation, but we make a few changes to the default configuration that conflict with those docs
[02:17] <mdke> jdub, btw by "not now..." I meant, "let's not get into this now", rather than, "let's not move to baz yet"
[02:18] <jdub> so a member of the docteam creates a branch of gnome-panel, and changes the documentation appropriately
[02:18] <mdke> yeah i follow ya
[02:18] <jdub> they make sure the ubuntu maintainer knows about the branch, and can include it in the list of branches that make up the ubuntu package
[02:18] <froud> jsgotangco: not a yes or no answerable question. baz has some really great features we can use technically
[02:18] <froud> but it presents a barrier for newbie users
[02:18] <froud> needs gui
[02:18] <froud> mark can give us some basic shell scripts
[02:18] <froud> abstract the command line complexity
[02:18] <mdke> just that we agreed to discuss it later
[02:18] <jdub> because it's in that list, one of the spanish translators picks it up automagically in rosetta
[02:18] <froud> but the concepts are big
[02:19] <jdub> and translates the ubuntu modificatiosn
[02:19] <jsgotangco> froud, HCT, but that's another story :)
[02:19] <froud> mdke: jdub is right
[02:19] <jdub> baz is as easy as svn if it's not explained in a revision control system geek kind of way
[02:20] <judax> <- not afraid of baz *flex*
[02:20] <jdub> mdke: rock -> just letting you know where we're headed :)
[02:20] <jsgotangco> ok
[02:20] <froud> jsgotangco: jdub is describing another way to do vendor drops
[02:20] <froud> an easier way
[02:20] <mdke> froud, i never disagreed
[02:20] <froud> jdub: the problem is we need a revision control with baz book
[02:20] <mdke> just tired
[02:20] <jdub> froud: yes
[02:21] <mdke> let's switch to #ubuntu-doc for this discussion
[02:21] <mdke> ANY OTHER BUSINESS?
[02:21] <jsgotangco> mdke, you rest i'll wrap this up
[02:21] <froud> cool, jdub we need to talk
[02:21] <froud> you want to msg
[02:21] <mdke> ok MEETING ADJOURNED
[02:21] <jsgotangco> ok you two kiss and make up
[02:21] <jdub> froud: i'll call at some stage, i haven't got to everyone yet
[02:22] <jdub> if you're going to stay in the documentation team, that is
[02:22] <froud> OK
[02:22] <froud> dpends on our chat
[02:22] <judax> bye guys was fun, go to ubuntu-doc
[02:23] <mpt> thanks mdke and jsgotangco and jdub and froud and everybody
[02:23] <mdke> thanks all
[02:23] <jsgotangco> ok thanks all, that was great
[02:23] <froud> jdub: sooner we chat the better
[02:23] <froud> jdub: we need to understand each other otheriwse we will bump heads
[02:24] <froud> jdub: I dont want to be in that situation and I dont think you do either
[02:26] <jdub> i have a thick skull :)
[02:27] <jsgotangco> oh yeah
[06:12] <fabbione> morning
[06:13] <FLeiXiuS> Good evening for I ;-)
[08:58] <Ubuntu-geek> hello all
[08:58] <jdodson> sup geek.
[08:58] <jdodson> wonder if this is everyone for the meeting.
[08:59] <jdong> ok, UbuntuForum staff role call....
[09:00] <ubuntu_demon> hi
[09:00] <ubuntu_demon> I'm a moderator of ubuntuforums (demon666_nl)
[09:01] <jdong> k
[09:02] <Ubuntu-geek> hello
[09:02] <jdodson> hello.
[09:02] <jdong> Mako...the whole other party...? 
[09:02] <jdodson> maybe they went to #ubuntu-meeting-that-other-secret-room-HA-suckers
[09:05] <jdodson> maybe they meant June 17th as in next year 2006.
[09:05] <jdodson> ?
[09:05] <jdong> lol
[09:05] <jdodson> *crickets*
[09:06] <jdodson> right, i bet the meeting was supposed to be next year.
[09:06] <jdong> well, we just had a big guy enter :)
[09:06] <sabdfl> who's in town?
[09:06] <jdodson> santa claus.
[09:06] <jdodson> well at least, thats why my grandmother keeps telling me.
[09:06] <jdong> all of the forum's staff is accounted for
[09:07] <sabdfl> old fucker is early this year
[09:07] <jdodson> har, seriously, old people like the june weather, i think he is changing the holiday.
[09:07] <sabdfl> do we have anyone from the doc team, who was expressing frustration with the reputation system?
[09:07] <Ubuntu-geek> Gtaylor said he was coming..
[09:08] <mako> hey
[09:08] <mako> i'm here
[09:08] <jdodson> sweet, as i am i.
[09:08] <sabdfl> ok, while we have the forums team here, let me say i think you guys do a fantastic job
[09:08] <Ubuntu-geek> hey mako and mark
[09:08] <sabdfl> hiya mako
[09:09] <jdong> ok, folks, http://ubuntuforums.org/meeting-agenda.txt is a list of the suggestions our forum team came up with after quite a bit of thought and discussion
[09:09] <jdodson> i believe the "old fucker" likes our suggestions.:)
[09:10] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: thnx :)
[09:10] <sabdfl> jdodson: you and i are getting NO pressies this year, that's for sure
[09:10] <jdodson> sabdfl: eh, well if he can see me when i am sleeping, no way.
[09:10] <mako> wait.. we're still missing a few people that really should be here i think
[09:10] <jdodson> i agree, like squishywaffle
[09:10] <jdong> correct
[09:11] <jdong> but I really don't think that dispute is still the concern
[09:11] <jdong> We at the forums believes that the problem has been resolved. The concern now is how to avoid a similar escalation in the future
[09:11] <jdong> wow, grammar really ISN't my strong suit today
[09:12] <sabdfl> reading that, the forums board looks like a place to raise issues on a regular basis, right?
[09:12] <ubuntu_demon> it's about streamlining policies and politics now right :P
[09:12] <mako> jdong: yes
[09:12] <jdong> correct; it's gonna be our version of the Council
[09:12] <sabdfl> ok
[09:12] <sabdfl> i think it's a great idea
[09:12] <jdodson> we have had this idea for sometime, i think its a good time to bring it out to the light at it were.
[09:12] <jdong> Another concern is appropriate administratrive action for what already happened
[09:12] <sabdfl> i don't think we need someone from the TB present at all of those meetings
[09:13] <jdong> a fellow colleague is still pretty upset over the situation
[09:13] <mako> well, it seems like it would be useful to work out how to prevent pass problems by having both sides of the disagreement here
[09:13] <sabdfl> the CC is a closer call
[09:13] <jdodson> mako: i agree.
[09:13] <jdong> sabdfl: good point. Perhaps trade off depending the nature of the issue at hand?
[09:13] <sabdfl> i would do it the other way
[09:14] <sabdfl> if you have a technical issue, put it on the TB Agenda
[09:14] <sabdfl> and participate in the next TB meeting
[09:14] <sabdfl> to discuss that item
[09:14] <sabdfl> they will be happy to have items put on their agenda
[09:14] <sabdfl> particularly w.r.t. infrastructure issues
[09:15] <jdong> sabdfl: yeah, that can be done for tech issues. but for regular conflicts that happen on the forums, we'd like our own board to resolve these issues
[09:15] <sabdfl> (btw, i'm really glad we will have a single-sign-on for wiki and forums soon)
[09:15] <sabdfl> jdong: agreed
[09:15] <sabdfl> the Forums Board would handle issues between people
[09:15] <jdong> there's no reason for half of the locked threads to escalate to the CC agenda
[09:15] <Ubuntu-geek> jdong: agreed
[09:15] <jdodson> jdong: right.
[09:15] <ubuntu_demon> yeah
[09:15] <sabdfl> i think we should make it clear that if a user is not happy, they can escalate it to the CC
[09:15] <jdodson> sabdfl: i think that is fair.
[09:15] <sabdfl> in the same way: add it to the CC agenda, and participate in the CC meeting
[09:15] <ubuntu_demon> my yeah was a "jdong:yeah" :P
[09:16] <squinn> [Sorry for walking in, what meeting's this? Seems like uf-mods, I'll get out. <3 the forums by the way, guys] 
[09:16] <jdong> sabdfl: well, perhaps with a bit of reserve. As I've said before, I don't want every issue to have an appeal at the CC
[09:16] <jdodson> squinn: we are meeting over whether or not to add microsoft products to ubuntu, goodbye.
[09:16] <mako> jdong: if you guys can handle it, then it's not an issue anymore
[09:16] <jdodson> mako: good point.
[09:17] <jdong> mako: Unless users think we have the authority to handle it, they WON'T rest with our decision
[09:17] <squinn> ah, okay, i apologize..goodbye
[09:17] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: good point.. we need to make that known then..
[09:17] <sabdfl> jdong: if someone is very unhappy with a decision of the Forum Board, they will make a mess and a noise anyway
[09:18] <mako> .
[09:18] <jdong> sabdfl: how do you suggest silencing that? I don't want to wear out my mouse clicking the ban/delete buttons.... :(
[09:19] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: true. But there's still the issue of some users thinking we are dictators
[09:19] <jdong> In a forum of about 50 posts per minute, even if 0.5% of posts are complaints, that would still overflow the CC agenda. We don't want that to happen, and we don't want to have to sit through a 2-hour meeting to settle a thread and a disgruntled user
[09:20] <mako> ubuntu_demon: that's why they can appeal to a democratically body (the CC)
[09:20] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: not much users though
[09:20] <mako> jdong: i think that if you guys are doing a good job, as i know you are, the number of complaints should be very very small
[09:20] <jdodson> mako: to my knowledge they are.
[09:21] <jdodson> mako: small that is.
[09:21] <ubuntu_demon> mako: how does this CC work ? Is there a wiki about this ?
[09:21] <jdong> mako: that's not the case. There are certain types of members that if we edit one profanity, they'll appeal to the CC
[09:21] <mako> lets not wear ourselves out NOW trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist
[09:21] <sabdfl> so, what i'm suggesting, is let folks go on to the CC if they really want to
[09:21] <sabdfl> that way they won't feel like you are dictators
[09:21] <mako> jdong: that's their problem and our problem, not your problem
[09:21] <jdodson> sabdfl: i think that is fair, personally.
[09:21] <sabdfl> they will think I am. appropriately ;-)
[09:22] <sabdfl> ok
[09:22] <mako> jdong: publish rules and run them by us, then enforce them
[09:22] <jdong> sabdfl: that's fine, but I personally refuse to be forced into attending a 2-hour meeting at an inconvenient time every week
[09:22] <jdong> if you guys can handle the CC meeting without forum staff intervention, I'd be pleased
[09:22] <sabdfl> jdong: if there is a big team of forums admins, then it should be easy to rotate
[09:22] <mako> jdong: it will make our job *very* easy and the vast majority of people won't complain if they realize they have violatd a published rule
[09:22] <sabdfl> i guess it just needs one admin at a meeting like that
[09:22] <jdodson> sabdfl: i dont have a problem attending those meetings, personally.
[09:23] <sabdfl> so let's talk about the rules
[09:23] <jdodson> i think we can rotate internally with few problems.
[09:23] <mako> jdong: there has been at least one admin at every CC meeting in the last few months
[09:23] <Ubuntu-geek> OK lets do rules..
[09:23] <sabdfl> when we started this, the Code of Conduct was a new and untested idea
[09:23] <jdodson> gtaylor: hey.
[09:23] <sabdfl> i think it's worked reasonably well
[09:23] <gtaylor> jdodson: Greetings
[09:23] <sabdfl> hi gtaylor
[09:23] <mako> gtaylor: greetings
[09:23] <sabdfl> it might be useful to publish some guidelines and clarifications
[09:24] <sabdfl> at the moment, it's very much "be excellent to each other"
[09:24] <ubuntu_demon> hi gtaylor
[09:24] <jdodson> sabdfl: right.  it seems at the moment the CoC can be interpreted in different ways.
[09:24] <jdong> sabdfl: strengthening clauses about "being respectful" is very much in need!
[09:24] <Ubuntu-geek> jdong: agreed
[09:24] <jdodson> sabdfl: i loved that movie.
[09:24] <sabdfl> i think we could back that up with some guidelines on, for example, how to disagree without flaming, how to use the CC and TB to resolve real disputes
[09:25] <sabdfl> how to avoid becoming personal
[09:25] <mako> sabdfl: right, i want to be careful to not dictate process in the CC
[09:25] <ubuntu_demon> jdong: true. We have to make the rules more specific
[09:25] <mako> sabdfl: sorry, CoC
[09:25] <mako> sabdfl: in terms of conflict resolution and such.. that should be more flexible. we should be able to easily and frequently change that. the coc should be the rules
[09:25] <sabdfl> mako: sure, the CC escalation suggestion would be in guidelines and suggestions, not in the CoC itself
[09:25] <jdong> mako: then we need stricter rules for the forums  that you guys woudl be willing to enforce
[09:25] <sabdfl> sort a CoC FAQ
[09:26] <mako> jdong: well, you'd be the ones enforcing it
[09:26] <Ubuntu-geek> ok sec guys..
[09:26] <mako> jdong: we'd just handle any disputes arrising as a result
[09:26] <jdong> mako: every time we make an enforcement, they'd come crying to the CC...
[09:26] <jdodson> mako: rules we all agree to that the forums enforce then.
[09:26] <sabdfl> reading the meeting-agenda.txt i was struck by the idea that people might publish deliberately misleading or harmful suggestions
[09:26] <Ubuntu-geek> so we are talking about set rules on the forums and then those will be enforced by the CC?
[09:26] <jdong> mako: We're very lenient mods... we don't act unless there's something totally out of line... in which case the offender isn't gonna be ready to shut up just because we said so
[09:26] <sabdfl> that definitely deserves attention in the CoC
[09:27] <mako> jdong: that has not been our experience so far in other areas.. if there are published reasonable rules, people realize it's not worth their trouble. if the rules say "don't call someone a nazi" and someone calls some a nazi, they're not going to waste their time
[09:27] <Ubuntu-geek> sabdfl: users on the forums often get out of control, this is the nature of the beast.. :)
[09:27] <jdong> sabdfl: illegitimate advice doesn't happen too often intentially
[09:28] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: no, we're talking about rules for the forums that will continue to be enforced by the forum admins and moderators but that group will be accountable to the CC
[09:28] <squinn> Coming from a user's perspective on the forum, yet being only one whose more of a lurker with only 30 posts yet been around here since Warty, I've not seen many moderator's judgements. Not that they haven't been doing their job, but I rarely see any out-of-control user. 
[09:28] <jdong> sabdfl: but accidental "chmod 777 this" and "delete this" and "post the content of that" happens quite often
[09:28] <sabdfl> ok
[09:28] <jdodson> sabdfl: it has been brought up to our attention about bad advice that is unintentional, i have heard no good advice to this point to curb that yet.
[09:28] <mako> jdong: all we're suggesting is that you guys be accountable to an indepdendent and more democratic body.. i think that's reasonable and i think we can fin a way to make it work
[09:29] <jdodson> mako: i agree.
[09:29] <squinn> mako, agreed as well
[09:29] <sabdfl> so let's talk about the reputation system
[09:29] <jdong> mako: I'm fine with that :)
[09:29] <jdong> ok
[09:29] <Ubuntu-geek> hold :)
[09:29] <Ubuntu-geek> hold :)
[09:29] <mako> wait.. DID we talk about the rules
[09:29] <mako> or did we just sort of breeze through that point
[09:29] <Ubuntu-geek> Ok so we have established we are fine with a set of of rules.. Now what should those rules be.
[09:30] <ubuntu_demon> I agree. a democratic council is a good thing.
[09:30] <mako> do you guys have published rules now?
[09:30] <mako> i agree with mark that "obey the CoC" doesn't cut in this case
[09:30] <jdong> mako: we've been telling guys to follow the CoC... and that's not working. We'll need stricter rules
[09:30] <Ubuntu-geek> http://ubuntuforums.org/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item
[09:31] <jdong> mako: we've been slowly ammending rules when we see problems
[09:31] <mako> jdong: stricter is not how i would describe it. more descriptive perhaps
[09:31] <jdong> more specific
[09:31] <gtaylor> agreed, "respect" is being used a lot and is not very well defined in the forum context.
[09:31] <jdong> which is, in turn, stricter than a loose interpretation of the CoC
[09:31] <sabdfl> this is the sort of stuff i would like to fold into a set of general guidelines around the CoC
[09:31] <mako> so, mark was talking about guidesline for following the CoC
[09:32] <mako> right.. i think this an ideal place to help work on this
[09:32] <sabdfl> some of that stuff is forums-specific
[09:32] <mako> i suspect that there may be a number of forums specific guidelines
[09:32] <sabdfl> like "go easy on the images"
[09:32] <mako> sabdfl: man.. we're just like thinking on the same wavelength now
[09:32] <jdodson> avoid all caps posts.
[09:32] <sabdfl> but some of it would be useful in the general case
[09:32] <mako> so again, do you guys have published rules beyond "follow the coc"?
[09:32] <sabdfl> mako: in that case, can i head off and let you channel me? ;-)
[09:33] <sabdfl> mako: http://ubuntuforums.org/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item
[09:33] <mako> nice
[09:33] <sabdfl> mako: privmsg
[09:33] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: that is what we have at this point.. until the other day things worked..
[09:34] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: ok.. so it's stopped working so well.. that's fine
[09:35] <sabdfl> ok guys, i'm headed out, thanks for this and thanks again for your great work on the forums
[09:35] <mako> there are still going to be disagreements and people will still be hurt.. but we should try to eliminate as much of the amibiguity as we can
[09:35] <ubuntu_demon> mako: are you registered at the forums? (just curious)
[09:35] <jdodson> sabdlf: later.
[09:35] <mako> ubuntu_demon: umm... maybe
[09:35] <jdong> **queries database for IP lookup
[09:35] <jdong> j/k
[09:36] <jdodson> mako: i think he is registered as "windows-xp-forever"
[09:36] <jdodson> errr that was to jdong.
[09:36] <ubuntu_demon> sabdlf: bye!
[09:36] <mako> i'm "mako"
[09:36] <jdong> wow.. who would've guessed
[09:36] <mako> on the forum
[09:37] <mako> yeah, y'know
[09:37] <mako> so anyway.. 
[09:37] <mako> so, i'm going to work on building a coc revision and to try to build some companion guidelines for it
[09:37] <jdodson> mako: ok.
[09:37] <mako> i'd appreciate your help on this
[09:38] <mako> because i think we'll (a) be able to take a lot of your guidlines as general guidelines and (b) i think you'll have your own document with some forum specific stuff
[09:38] <mako> stuff like colors, images, etc
[09:38] <mako> y'know better than i do
[09:39] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: correct.. and one clarification, if we propose a set of descriptive rules on the forums  and an issue is raised to the CC and the rules were clearly violated the CC will follow these rules correct?
[09:39] <mako> i think that if you have very visible and clear rules, it will make your job easier
[09:39] <jdong> yeah
[09:39] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: when rules are clearly violated, you guys should act
[09:39] <jdodson> mako: i agree.
[09:39] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: ok thanks for that clarification
[09:39] <mako> if someone decides to appeal to the CC and they ahve clearly violated the rules, it will be a quick agenda item :)
[09:40] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: ok thanks :)
[09:40] <jdodson> mako: good to know.
[09:40] <gtaylor> To this point we have discussed mainly keeping the users under control. Unfortunately, you can't keep the users under control without publishing clear guidelines for moderators that are publicly posted for all users to see. This should be done to keep balance.
[09:40] <jdong> mako: do you see "No harassing mods" as a reasonable rule?
[09:40] <gtaylor> Guidelines for moderator behavior, that is.
[09:40] <mako> jdong: define harassing
[09:41] <mako> there is *always* going to be a line between criticsm done in a way that is valid and criticism that breaks the rule and it's not always going to be clear
[09:41] <jdong> mako: repeatedly bringing up arguments, insisting on objecting AFTER a ruling has been made by forum staff, using other channels to express their disagreements by defaming specific moderators
[09:41] <mako> we can try to be as specific as possible
[09:41] <jdong> mako: which is, what happened in the last incident
[09:42] <mako> calm down dude, we'll get there
[09:42] <mako> we've already said we'll have a published process on what to do
[09:42] <mako> it will go something like:
[09:42] <mako> user does X
[09:43] <mako> moderators think X violates the rules. takes whatever action was published
[09:43] <mako> user disagrees, goes the CC
[09:43] <mako> then probably either:
[09:43] <mako> CC agrees that X was clearly in violation of the rules, affirms
[09:43] <mako> or
[09:43] <mako> CC brings everyone body together to talk it out
[09:44] <jdong> ok. I'm happy with the procedure
[09:44] <jdodson> mako: that works.
[09:44] <jdong> the specifics, I'll decide later whether I'm in line with
[09:44] <mako> so, i think that avoids the problems you were describing above
[09:44] <ubuntu_demon> mako: sounds good to me
[09:44] <jdodson> any other mods ok/not with this?
[09:44] <jdong> ok, let's move on
[09:45] <mako> so i think that defaming is always be against the rules
[09:45] <jdong> undoubtedly
[09:45] <Ubuntu-geek> ok I am happy with that as well..
[09:46] <mako> and there needs to be an *extra* burdon on moderators to be fair, transparent, and understanding
[09:46] <jdong> the way the previous situation was handled should also  be against the rules...
[09:46] <jdodson> mako: a person or entity?
[09:46] <mako> jdodson: dude, we'll get there
[09:46] <mako> jdodson: umm.. well i hope both
[09:46] <ubuntu_demon> How do people get in the council ? I found this wiki : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/council/view?searchterm=council ... i scan read it .. didn't see anything on how people get elected
[09:46] <jdong> mako: when were we not fair, transparent, or understanding in the past?
[09:46] <jdodson> jdodson: ummm.  i thought my question was relavent.
[09:46] <jdodson> errr 
[09:47] <jdodson> mako: ummm.  i thought my question was relavent.
[09:47] <mako> jdodson: that was meant for jdong
[09:47] <mako> nick completisions :)
[09:47] <jdodson> as was my post to myself for you.
[09:47] <jdodson> HA!
[09:47] <mako> jdong: i'm not implying that. there's no need to be defensive
[09:47] <jdong> I'm not; I'm just time-rushed. Got a doctor's appointment in 30 min
[09:48] <jdong> sorry if I sound too agressive
[09:48] <mako> ok.. let me take a look at your agenda
[09:48] <mako> so, i should work with someobody or a group of folks about these guildelines
[09:49] <mako> i think we've accomplished the biggest goal which was to come up with a procedure
[09:49] <mako> or at least the outline for one
[09:49] <mako> i'm going to need to work with someone here though to sort of distill it and get it usable
[09:49] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: agreed..
[09:49] <mako> well, hands :)
[09:49] <Ubuntu-geek> anyone from the forums team besides myself what to help on this?
[09:49] <jdodson> i will help.
[09:50] <jdong> I will give my input
[09:50] <Ubuntu-geek> ok great thanks guys..
[09:50] <bored2k> Ok, i guess.
[09:50] <ubuntu_demon> I will help in this channel for the following 2 hours if needed
[09:50] <mako> cool
[09:50] <mako> so, gtaylor you around?
[09:50] <jdodson> I have access to a paper shredder.
[09:50] <froud> mako: you need help
[09:51] <mako> froud: is that a statement or a question :)
[09:51] <gtaylor> mako: yes
[09:51] <jdodson> froud: :)
[09:51] <froud> ? quest
[09:51] <froud> offering help
[09:51] <mako> froud: yeah, i'm sure you'd have good input
[09:51] <mako> that would be great
[09:51] <mako> this is a wiki project
[09:51] <froud> ok
[09:51] <froud> hello jdodson 
[09:52] <mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines
[09:52] <mako> how about there
[09:52] <jdodson> froud: hello.
[09:52] <jdodson> mako: sure.
[09:52] <froud> mako yes I know them ;-)
[09:53] <froud> mako I came in late so I will need more context from you
[09:53] <froud> I can work with jdodson 
[09:53] <jdodson> private chat me your email address and i will email you a IRC log.
[09:54] <mako> froud: cool.. we'll talk afterwards
[09:54] <mako> i just created that page
[09:54] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: lets address the rep system before we do rules.
[09:54] <mako> SO ANYWAY
[09:54] <mako> i was going to suggest that
[09:54] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: umm.. ok.. 
[09:54] <mako> lets be careful here.. i DO NOT want to have this argument again right now
[09:54] <mako> i'd like to know what you guys think needs to be addressed here?
[09:55] <gtaylor> Actually, I think the forum-docteam tensions that Ubuntu-geek pointed out in our IRC room need to be addressed.
[09:55] <mako> as in, what do you think needs to be improved or clarified to keep this from happening again
[09:55] <mako> sure, but jdong has to leave very soon
[09:55] <mako> and there aren't really enough docteam people here now
[09:55] <jdong> I want to use the rep system as an example of what kind of rules need to be in place, if the court pleases :)
[09:56] <Ubuntu-geek> Ok.. I would like to see the reputation system enabled for everyone, users can then decide to opt out of it if they wish via the user cp. Its a way  for quality control. 
[09:56] <gtaylor> You may see the counter opinion at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumRepSystem?highlight=%28RepSystem%29
[09:56] <mako> jdong: that's totally fine.. if you think we can avoid the whole thing again :)
[09:56] <jdong> sure
[09:56] <ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, opt-out is a good solution if someone doesn't like it
[09:56] <froud> +1
[09:57] <jdong> the actual rep system yes/no issue, I think, is currently irrelevant. I'm more concerned with the way the situation was handled, and how it should be improved in the future
[09:57] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: we can get to that I also want to address the situation between you and kassetra.
[09:57] <gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: That would be a good idea
[09:57] <froud> so long as such a system aims to harness positive energy I think it will be good
[09:57] <mako> jdong: agreed, absolutely
[09:57] <mako> i think everybody agrees with that
[09:57] <Ubuntu-geek> So in favor of the rep system as long as users can opt out..
[09:57] <Ubuntu-geek> yes
[09:57] <froud> +1
[09:58] <gtaylor> I'd still have to say no, I was concerned about the picture this paints for the users.
[09:58] <jdong> mako: I don't want to spark an argument, but I personally believe the way the situation escalated should be against the "rules" and guidelines
[09:58] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: i like where jdong is going for the moment, lets do that
[09:58] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: we can talk about the specifics of the system soon
[09:58] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: ok i like were he is going as well.
[09:58] <ubuntu_demon> gtaylor, in what way do you think a rep system is bad if opt-out is possible ?
[09:58] <jdong> enough about the opt-out
[09:59] <mako> ubuntu_demon: please, lets try to have one conversation right now
[09:59] <froud> jdong: lets here gtaylor 
[09:59] <gtaylor> regarding which of the many topics we have opened now?
[09:59] <froud> s/here/hear
[09:59] <jdong> mako, do you have a comment about the conduct of certain members of the community during this situation?
[09:59] <mako> ok.. so i read the whole thread
[10:00] <ubuntu_demon> mako, ok
[10:00] <froud> [21:51]  <ubuntu_demon> gtaylor, in what way do you think a rep system is bad if opt-out is possible ?
[10:00] <jdodson> mako: the original rep thread on the forums?
[10:00] <mako> yes
[10:00] <mako> and i think that gtaylor's ideas were pretty sane
[10:00] <froud> +1
[10:00] <mako> and i think that, initally, they were presented pretty level-headedly too
[10:00] <jdodson> mako: i agree.
[10:00] <froud> +1
[10:00] <jdong> mako: what about the conduct of the doc team IRC chat?
[10:01] <jdong> mako: and the claims of 'moderator oppression' on the Wiki?
[10:01] <mako> i think that things went downhill from there and i think it was a two ways street
[10:01] <mako> gtaylor: i think that in the future, you should be careful how you push on issues.. certain terms and ideas were leveled well before i think they were appopriate
[10:01] <froud> jdong: I think there were problems on both sides
[10:01] <mako> we should all be careful about when we say the other person is violating the coc
[10:01] <jdong> froud: would you like to elaborate on the conduct of forum staff?
[10:01] <froud> but I would like to not make this a docteam - forums problem
[10:01] <mako> and, within a couple dozen messages, BOTH sides were doing so
[10:02] <gtaylor> mako: I'm afraid I can only halfway agree, I haven't released the private messages that caused the issue.
[10:02] <jdodson> froud: agred.
[10:02] <gtaylor> mako: Those claims were made based on a private conversation that I kept private ot prevent further problems, I figured this was more of a CC issue rather than something that needed to be quoted publicly.
[10:02] <froud> jdodson: I think this is an individual - forum thing
[10:02] <mako> on the other hand, the moderators need to realize that criticism, sometimes harsh criticism, comes with the territory
[10:02] <mako> gtaylor: if it's based off private message, it needs to stay in private messages
[10:02] <jdodson> mako: agreed.  we are flamebait at times.
[10:03] <froud> jdodson: the docteam should / cannot be held accountable for its member actions on the forum
[10:03] <jdong> mako: Correct. But when harsh criticism escalates to singling out individual staff members?
[10:03] <jdodson> froud: fair enough.
[10:03] <mako> gtaylor: you can't go about making accusations that nobody can confirm or deny
[10:03] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: understood but gtaylor was out of line on the way this was handled i believe even you acknowlegded this.
[10:03] <mako> jdong: it is *going* to happen
[10:03] <gtaylor> mako: The CC can confirm/deny it quite easily as what was going to be done before the issues was dropped.
[10:03] <mako> jdong: i have been personally accused of violating the coc and of being oppressive several times
[10:03] <mako> jdong: i've been called a racist, for gods sake
[10:03] <froud> Ubuntu-geek: I think we are looking for a scape goat
[10:04] <jdong> mako: and what should be done about it? Nothing? We're doormats? I sympathesize with you, but I think something needs to be addressed here
[10:04] <froud> Ubuntu-geek: is this the best way forward
[10:04] <jdong> mako: Typically when it escalates to this point, individuals are asked to leave the forums
[10:04] <mako> jdong: part of being a leader is taking more flac than others
[10:04] <jdodson> jdong: People should be civil, however at times, the only person you can control, is yourself.
[10:05] <jdong> jdodson: Then it turns into a doormat situation
[10:05] <ubuntu_demon> mako: I agree
[10:05] <mako> you guys can't ignore the power situation
[10:05] <mako> you have power the rest of your users don't
[10:05] <mako> you also have visibility
[10:05] <jdong> mako: Part of being a leader is to make sure that your colleagues don't get hurt personally during the system
[10:05] <jdodson> jdong: no.  it turns into a public leadership situation. is the president of the usa a doormat because he gets called names all the time?
[10:05] <ubuntu_demon> mako: I agree on the part "being a leader..."
[10:05] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: true..
[10:05] <jdong> jdodson: If I said that I want to kill the president, I'd be in jail
[10:06] <mako> jdong: you *will* get criticized and sometimes it will hurt
[10:06] <Ubuntu-geek> ok guys.. lets keep on track.. :)
[10:06] <jdodson> jdong: apples to oranges, no one said anything about killing anyone.
[10:06] <jdong> jdodson: If gtaylor said he wants to revoke Kass's privs, he's not having any punishment
[10:06] <jdodson> jdong: people can say anything they want, doesnt mean it is going to happen.
[10:06] <gtaylor> Who said anything about revoking Kass' privs?
[10:06] <jdodson> jdong: personally i want the presidents privs taken, is that going to happen, nope.
[10:07] <jdodson> :)
[10:07] <jdong> gtaylor: Doc team had a field day researching how to appeal to the CC about membership, etc
[10:07] <gtaylor> jdong: And what is wrong with this? Did the forum staff not discuss what was happening for advice?
[10:07] <jdong> gtaylor: #ubuntu-doc had a discussion that hinted they were going to try to take away Kass's membership
[10:07] <froud> jdong: pls this is not a docteam thing
[10:07] <jdong> froud: it happened in #ubuntu-doc. That's why I think it's a docteam thing
[10:08] <ubuntu_demon> We need to communicate to the users in a clear way ... they can go to the council in case of a dispute (and should only do so whenever they think rules are being broken)
[10:08] <gtaylor> jdong: I had people who agreed with me, but yes it just happened in #ubuntu-doc, it was NOT a docteam issue.
[10:08] <froud> jdong: no you come to the chanlle
[10:08] <mako> jdong: nobody has filed any sort of CC motion to remove Kass's privs
[10:08] <mako> jdong: people have suggested i get botted off the CC
[10:08] <froud> jdong: it was a place to discuss
[10:08] <froud> seems it did not work
[10:08] <mako> when you're in a leadership situation, this is the type of strong criticism you will sometimes get
[10:08] <froud> that is not a docteam problem
[10:08] <mako> froud: i think that's clear
[10:08] <Ubuntu-geek> froud: ok understood..
[10:08] <jdodson> froud: ok.
[10:09] <jdodson> froud: i agree.
[10:09] <froud> thank you
[10:09] <mako> nobody is claiming teh docteam is out to get anybody.. just that one relevant converation happened in teh channel
[10:09] <jdong> ok, let's wrap this up: so Mako, you're basically saying it's in the leader's responsibility to accept harsh criticism at times?
[10:09] <jdong> I can agree with that
[10:09] <mako> jdong: yes
[10:09] <jdodson> jdong: like i said, people can try to do whatever they want, doesnt mean it will happen.
[10:09] <mako> absolutely
[10:09] <mako> and sometimes it will be bruising
[10:09] <mako> i have one more piece of advice i think :)
[10:09] <jdodson> mako: listens.
[10:09] <jdodson> * *
[10:09] <mako> when you are pissed off or hurt, it's *really* hard to make a level headed decision
[10:09] <jdong> mako: I can take personal hits. But when the situation's ready to escalate into a forum riot, something needs to be done
[10:10] <mako> it's easier to say "let stuff roll off your back" than to actually not get upset
[10:10] <bored2k> jdong: agreed.
[10:10] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: true..
[10:10] <jdodson> jdong: i really don't think most of our users knew what was going on.
[10:10] <Ubuntu-geek> jdong: agreed
[10:10] <mako> jdong: i think that's probably a bit of an exaggeration
[10:10] <jdodson> jdong: i bet 95% of people had no idea.
[10:10] <jdong> mako: No, it really isn't. In past experience, this is how mass disagreement arises
[10:11] <mako> i have some experience as well
[10:11] <mako> and i think that listening to people and having the problem dealt with transparently and openning can have things work out
[10:11] <froud> jdong: ppl skills are hard
[10:11] <mako> when something similar happens
[10:11] <jdong> mako: When a user posts an outcry in a well-visited forum that moderators are abusing their power... That can cause massive public unrest
[10:11] <mako> and i say WHEN, not if
[10:11] <ubuntu_demon> mako: transparancy is good
[10:11] <mako> jdong: that's part of being a leader
[10:11] <jdong> mako: I want to settle these issues PRIVATELY with the complainer
[10:11] <mako> jdong: it's going to happen publicly sometimes
[10:12] <mako> that's life.. i'm trying to help you find out ways to make it work
[10:12] <gtaylor> jdong: I can address this issue in detail when the time in this meeting comes, it isn't fair to keep referring to my claim without hearing all sides.
[10:12] <jdong> mako: Then we'll be the Slashdot forums... :(
[10:12] <jdong> ok guys, I'll be back in like 30 minutes
[10:12] <froud> jdong: but equally the mods should look at the statement without personal involvement and question themselves
[10:12] <jdodson> jdong: visibility will give these issues more creedence.  as in, the right side will be shown.
[10:12] <ubuntu_demon> jdong: see you in 30 :)
[10:12] <squinn> jdong, enjoy the Dr.
[10:13] <jdong> lol
[10:13] <jdong> have fun with the less heated debates, and I hope I gain that "level head" in the meantime
[10:13] <jdong> :)
[10:13] <froud> jdong:  no needles
[10:13] <Seveas> Hmm, was this meeting scheduled/announced..?
[10:13] <bored2k> Seveas: yes. 19:00
[10:13] <Seveas> ah, too short notice :)
[10:13] <Ubuntu-geek> seveas: sorry :)
[10:14] <Seveas> ah well, I'm not a forum guy anyway...
[10:14] <Ubuntu-geek> ok lets move forward then.
[10:15] <jdodson> Seveas: neither am i, i am there for the doughnuts.
[10:15] <Seveas> Just wanted to give you some thumbs up for the great work you're doing. I hope all problems are/will be settled
[10:15] <Ubuntu-geek> seveas: I am sure they will.... Thanks we try..
[10:15] <ubuntu_demon> Seveas, I'm sure they will :)
[10:16] <froud> Ubuntu-geek: without offending anyone, I must say that I did find ppl not listening, or reading, and skimming was a problem. I dont get involved in the forums, but as an outsider this was my impression.
[10:16] <Ubuntu-geek> froud: more details if you would..
[10:16] <mako> i'm not entirely sure what to do right now.. since jdong just left
[10:16] <froud> Ubuntu-geek: at the same time i canot condone degrogitory language
[10:16] <jdodson> froud: skimming is a valuble thing to be able to do.
[10:17] <jdodson> froud: got me though university.
[10:17] <jdodson> mako: continue with the discussion.
[10:17] <jdodson> mako: he is a visibile mod, there are many others here who can speak.
[10:17] <jdodson> errr type rather.
[10:17] <mako> right, but he's the only one who has really disagreed with any of my suggestions :)
[10:17] <jdodson> mako: HA!
[10:18] <jdodson> mako: i can do that....:)
[10:18] <kassetra> or at least disagreed out in the open.
[10:18] <mako> disagreeing quietly in irc doesn't count for me
[10:18] <jdodson> right, so is anyone not ok with what we have talked about? 
[10:18] <Ubuntu-geek> kassetra?
[10:18] <mako> i've repeatedly asked for feedback
[10:19] <kassetra> mako: I will be providing you with a detailed list of my feedback.
[10:19] <mako> i don't have a monopoly on good ideas
[10:19] <mako> kassetra: this meeting would probably be the right place to do it
[10:19] <kassetra> mako: No, not in this case.  
[10:20] <kassetra> mako: I prefer writing this out completely instead of hacking at it piecemeal.
[10:20] <froud> mako: your sugestions are sound
[10:21] <mako> kassetra: it's a little unfair to have a meeting and get everyone together and then criticism until after the fact when we all have to go back to the drawing board together
[10:21] <mako> kassetra: i value the input you've given in the past.. if you disagree with anything, i'd like to know
[10:21] <philipacamaniac> kassetra, perhaps you can write up your feedback and post a link to it before the meeting is over
[10:21] <froud> jdodson: I am with you
[10:21] <Ubuntu-geek> forums team are you ok with the details mentioned before? We will create a set of rules for the forums, if a user violates the rules we act. If the situation is taken with the CC and the user is in violation forum rules superceed and we move on?.. 
[10:22] <ubuntu_demon> philipacamaniac, good suggestion
[10:22] <jdodson> i am ok with details mentioned before.
[10:22] <Ubuntu-geek> me to
[10:22] <kassetra> philipcam: they are not ready yet.
[10:22] <jdodson> froud: with me on what?
[10:22] <froud> jdodson: your ideas
[10:22] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: you ok with that still?
[10:22] <ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, I agree
[10:23] <kassetra> mako: I disagree strongly with many points here, but I do not like not having all of my facts completely 100% perfect before disputing.
[10:23] <froud> I think makos if then else mthod works
[10:23] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: yeah, absolutely
[10:23] <ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, I agree with the details mentioned before I mean :)
[10:23] <mako> kassetra: that's fine.. nobody here has their facts/arguments 100% perfect
[10:23] <froud> kassetra: we dont expect perfection
[10:23] <mako> it's the nature of realtime discussion
[10:23] <mako> froud: except from you sean :)
[10:24] <kassetra> mako: that may be the case, but I deal in facts as a researcher, and that is how I present all discussions.
[10:24] <ubuntu_demon> I have to agree with mako on this one. Please kassetra join in or provide an url or something
[10:25] <froud> kassetra: you are like totally empowered to say whatever you lik ehere
[10:25] <kassetra> ubuntu_demon: simply because I am not choosing to jump in blindly does not mean I am NOT joining in.
[10:25] <jdodson> froud: hey, i want some...:) 
[10:25] <froud> :-)
[10:25] <philipacamaniac> gentlemen, if she's not comfortable revealing her objections yet, the issue should not be pressed further
[10:25] <jdodson> kassetra: i dont think anyone is jumping in blindly here.
[10:26] <froud> kassetra: ok fair enough you hav eth eright
[10:26] <Ubuntu-geek> ubuntu_demon: agreed.. lets move on to the next item. which is, user opt out rep system.. (yes) or leave it disabled (no) I want to nix this off the list. 
[10:26] <mako> for the record (again) i'm not interested in talking about the rep situation again
[10:26] <jdodson> philipacamaniac: right.
[10:26] <mako> what happened etc.
[10:26] <froud> +1 for opt out
[10:26] <Ubuntu-geek> +1 for opt out
[10:26] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: that may be best at this point
[10:26] <jdodson> +50 for opt out
[10:26] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: vote vote.. 
[10:27] <Ubuntu-geek> lol
[10:27] <ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, agreed let's move on. 
[10:27] <ubuntu_demon> I vote for opt out
[10:27] <Ubuntu-geek> ok so calling once.. 
[10:27] <froud> make never has feelings
[10:27] <Ubuntu-geek> calling it twice..
[10:27] <gtaylor> How can we make a ruling and still be democratic if only the staff are here to vote (along with a few docteam members).
[10:27] <philipacamaniac> I'm not staff... +1 opt out
[10:27] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: its the meeting snooze you loose..
[10:27] <jdodson> gtaylor: members are allowed to vote, if anyone else is here they can.
[10:28] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: i don't have strong feelings either way
[10:28] <froud> gtaylor: its the way FOSS works
[10:28] <mako> i dn't actually really care :)
[10:28] <gtaylor> Why not put a poll up with both sides on a visible board and see what happens?
[10:28] <mako> i think any of the proposals are fixed
[10:28] <jdodson> mako: funny.  i don't either, i just want everyone to stop dissing each other.
[10:28] <Ubuntu-geek> ok the system will be enabled and users can choose to opt out if they wish.. an announcement will be sent to each user within the next few days telling them how they can do so.
[10:28] <jdodson> gtaylor: polls can be stuffed easily enough.
[10:28] <Ubuntu-geek> fair enough?
[10:29] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: fair enough
[10:29] <froud> gtaylor: it gives users the choice
[10:29] <Ubuntu-geek> i believe that can satisfy both sides here.
[10:29] <jdodson> U-G: perhaps we should mention that to the users in someway, to opt out.
[10:29] <mako> gtaylor: you happy?
[10:29] <Ubuntu-geek> jdodson: (16:28:38) Ubuntu-geek: ok the system will be enabled and users can choose to opt out if they wish.. an announcement will be sent to each user within the next few days telling them how they can do so.
[10:29] <Ubuntu-geek> :)
[10:30] <jdodson> Ubuntu-geek: I dig.
[10:30] <gtaylor> mako: I would be happy if negative rep was disabled and rep was in effect for everyone. I'm worried about the labeling that may be associated with people having a "black sheep" title because they drop below 0 rep due to a discussion in Community Chat or whatnot.
[10:30] <philipacamaniac> And it should be clearly visible when they register as a new user
[10:30] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: then they can disable it
[10:30] <jdodson> philipacamaniac: well if they dont notice it, why would it matter?  if they then noticed, then they could "opt-out."
[10:31] <froud> gtaylor: but at the same time a person like me would opt out just because I dont want a rep
[10:31] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: its as simple as 123..
[10:31] <mako> gtaylor: well, in that case, you can opt-out
[10:31] <mako> gtaylor: this is functionally equivalent
[10:31] <jdodson> should the forum default be rep off?
[10:31] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: agreed
[10:31] <gtaylor> jdodson: I was about to say...
[10:32] <Seveas> jdodson, that would be opt-in and not opt-out :)
[10:32] <Ubuntu-geek> jdodson: no
[10:32] <froud> gtaylor: I think you will find that those who opt out are actually th eguru's ;-)
[10:32] <jdodson> for the record, i am not sure on that on.
[10:32] <mako> i'm not sure it really matters
[10:32] <jdodson> SEveas: HA!
[10:32] <mako> you've built in the chose
[10:32] <ubuntu_demon> jdodson, no .. opt-out is fine IMO
[10:32] <jdodson> mako: ok, just wondering.... i am slow, remember that.:)
[10:33] <philipacamaniac> perhaps there is a way to disable rep in the community chat?
[10:33] <gtaylor> So I'm wondering, what do the staff hope to achieve by this rep system? This isn't a heated question, i really want to know.
[10:33] <jdodson> philipacamaniac: yes, to opt-out.
[10:33] <gtaylor> If people can opt out and a percentage can't even see what others have been rated as
[10:33] <froud> jdodson: it should be on unless the user switches off and at any time a user can do so
[10:33] <jdodson> gtaylor: honestly, i dont put stock into it at all, either way, i dont care it is around.
[10:33] <gtaylor> You effectively only have people with positive rep and the whole purpose of negative rep is null.
[10:34] <philipacamaniac> jdodson: agreed
[10:34] <jdodson> froud: right, i was trying to say that.
[10:34] <gtaylor> Why not only allow positive rep (so you reinforce good behavior) and let everyone partake?
[10:34] <froud> +1
[10:34] <gtaylor> We're not here to discourage people from trying to help, giving positive feedback to those that attempt to seems nuturing and encouraging for the community.
[10:34] <froud> gtaylor: it must be a poistive energy thing
[10:34] <jdodson> gtaylor: it seems to me that only positive feedback is overtly simplistic.  i mean disagreements are in the CoC.
[10:35] <gtaylor> How so? If you neg rep me I'll just opt out, defeating the purpose of the system.
[10:35] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: like i mentioned it will be opt out.. users will be clearly giving information on how todo this when they register on the forums and current users will as well
[10:35] <gtaylor> Your rating therefore becomes moot.
[10:35] <jdodson> gtaylor: thats fine.
[10:35] <gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: Discuss things with us here a minute.
[10:36] <Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, will users have the possibility to switch it on and off all the time? And do ratings get lost when opting-out?
[10:36] <gtaylor> ubuntu-geek: Keep it democratic like you guys wanted to earlier. Tell me what you disagree with in my suggestion.
[10:36] <jdodson> gtaylor: personally my rating is worthless(to me that is).
[10:36] <Ubuntu-geek> seveas: yes its enable/disable in their control panel
[10:36] <gtaylor> jdodson: I realize that, and allowing people to opt out of negativity makes it more worthless.
[10:36] <froud> gtaylor: I think its a positive thing
[10:37] <Ubuntu-geek> froud: agreed
[10:37] <froud> gtaylor: not really
[10:37] <gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: What is your goal in allowing opt outs if the people you wish to regulate just opt out?
[10:37] <jdodson> gtaylor: but others find it useful, just cause i dont care, doesnt meant we should not care, if it is the will of this body.
[10:37] <froud> gtaylor: see it as a safety valve
[10:37] <mako> gtaylor: it's functionally equivalent to a postive-only system in most cases
[10:37] <jdodson> is gtaylor the only person who wants the non-negative rep only?
[10:37] <gtaylor> but less useful since many people who will opt out could have earned a lot of positive points
[10:38] <jdodson> for the record that is.
[10:38] <mako> gtaylor: i can see why you think it is not the most efficient solution if that is the end it goes toward but i see the two solutions and equivalent in practice
[10:38] <jdodson> mako: agreed.
[10:38] <mako> i think they're the same thing :)
[10:38] <jdodson> Seveas: thanks.
[10:38] <gtaylor> I still haven't heard any discussion from ubuntu-geek here...
[10:38] <jdodson> so thats 2 then?
[10:38] <froud> gtaylor: I think you will find the power is in the community
[10:38] <jdodson> gtaylor: i thought he has been saying much, or at least my logs say so:)
[10:38] <Ubuntu-geek> Ok here are the options we have.
[10:39] <Ubuntu-geek> please guys for a sec let me tell you 
[10:40] <Ubuntu-geek> 1. We can allow a opt in/out rep system.
[10:40] <Ubuntu-geek> 2. We allow only positive rep system without opt in/out (this defeats the purpose)
[10:40] <Ubuntu-geek> 3. We disable it. (not an option)
[10:40] <Ubuntu-geek> the forum software isn't to flexable in this area
[10:40] <jdodson> if 3 is not an option, it should not be presented, no offense, just a technical thing.
[10:40] <ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, I choose 1 with opt-out
[10:40] <jdodson> +1 opt-out
[10:40] <gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: How is positive only defeating the purpose when #1 is too?
[10:41] <bored2k> I choose 1.
[10:41] <mako> why does 2 defeat the purpose?
[10:41] <mako> i don't understand
[10:41] <gtaylor> exactly, answer the question so we can discuss this fairly.
[10:41] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: whoa.. relax
[10:41] <philipacamaniac> this may be beyond the forum capability, but what about Slashdot-style metamoderation?
[10:41] <froud> Ubuntu-geek: question?
[10:42] <Ubuntu-geek> typing a sec
[10:42] <Ubuntu-geek> hold
[10:43] <froud> what if ppl give rep + what if not giving rep is equiv to neg rep?
[10:43] <froud> I think this is what gtaylor is saying
[10:43] <froud> as user I have two opts
[10:43] <Ubuntu-geek> froud: ok I can see it on that level
[10:43] <froud> 1. I can rep this is me saying great guy
[10:44] <froud> 2. I can abstain this is me saying bad gyuy
[10:44] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: this is the karma system
[10:44] <froud> but It does not hurt th eguy
[10:44] <gtaylor> That's what I mean, no feelings get hurt
[10:44] <mako> sort of
[10:44] <gtaylor> Nobody has to spam threads asking how to opt out to avoid negative comments, etc.
[10:45] <mako> froud: i know all about karma :)
[10:45] <Ubuntu-geek> Ok i can respect that.. guys..
[10:45] <froud> Ubuntu-geek: you can see it at this level, do you think it could work
[10:45] <froud> snap
[10:45] <Ubuntu-geek> froud: yes..
[10:46] <froud> cool then can we +1 for #2
[10:46] <froud> or did I get it wrong
[10:46] <Ubuntu-geek> We will have a positive system without opt/in/out
[10:46] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: yeah
[10:46] <froud> +1
[10:46] <Ubuntu-geek> in favor?
[10:46] <Ubuntu-geek> +1
[10:47] <gtaylor> +1
[10:47] <jdodson> -1 dont think it matters.
[10:47] <gtaylor> But maybe we should rename it to "appreciation" or something :)
[10:47] <jdodson> opt-out is fine.
[10:47] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: i'll see what i can do
[10:47] <mako> gtaylor: the semantics don't matter
[10:47] <gtaylor> yeah, that's a nitpicky point
[10:47] <Ubuntu-geek> ok so everyone is happy?
[10:47] <froud> anyone disagree
[10:48] <jdodson> i think we should opt-out, either way, i will be ok with.
[10:48] <gtaylor> Happy here
[10:48] <ubuntu_demon> I'm ok
[10:48] <froud> cool
[10:48] <mako> jdodson: you may be outvoted. but i agree that it doesn't mater :)
[10:48] <froud> you guys rock!
[10:48] <jdodson> mako: :) whatever, i think we should all vote on to stop dissing each other.
[10:48] <ubuntu_demon> I agree that it doesn't matter much :)
[10:48] <jdodson> +1 no more dissing.
[10:48] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: 1 or 2 is good for me.. but majority is fine..
[10:48] <Ubuntu-geek> +1
[10:49] <Ubuntu-geek> ok so next..
[10:49] <ubuntu_demon> Ubuntu-geek, yeah
[10:49] <Ubuntu-geek> The forums team and myself can hammer out forum rules and run these past mako.. Possibly schedule a meeting to discuss them next week?
[10:49] <Ubuntu-geek> in favor?
[10:49] <Ubuntu-geek> +1
[10:49] <jdodson> +1
[10:50] <froud> +1
[10:50] <ubuntu_demon> +1
[10:50] <gtaylor> +1, just make sure to publicly announce the date/time of the meeting as you did with this one.
[10:50] <Ubuntu-geek> gtaylor: no problem 
[10:50] <Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, just put them on the CC agenda
[10:50] <Ubuntu-geek> CC meeting is tuesday right?
[10:51] <Seveas> see /topic
[10:51] <Ubuntu-geek> lol oh yeah :)
[10:51] <Seveas> tue 21 12:00 UTC
[10:51] <Ubuntu-geek> that'll be fine we'll discuss there then
[10:51] <Seveas> ah and +1 
[10:51] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: cool with you?
[10:51] <ubuntu_demon> I will be there tuesday
[10:53] <ubuntu_demon> anymore left to discuss at this moment ?
[10:53] <jdong> k, I'm back
[10:53] <Ubuntu-geek> jdong: wb
[10:53] <jdodson> jdong: sweet, we solved everyrthing
[10:53] <ubuntu_demon> jdodson, hi :)
[10:53] <ubuntu_demon> jdong, hi :-P
[10:54] <jdodson> jdong: j/k
[10:54] <jdodson> Seveas: I am going to opt out of that:)
[10:54] <froud> Seveas: I alrwady have that
[10:55] <Ubuntu-geek> thanks everyone for hammering this out..
[10:55] <froud> np
[10:55] <froud> trust the community
[10:55] <Ubuntu-geek> Now! One last request for the parties involved.. lets say sorry and move on to new stuff.. :)
[10:55] <jdodson> froud: community is why i am here.
[10:55] <mako> Ubuntu-geek: uh, yes :)
[10:55] <froud> jdodson: rock
[10:55] <Ubuntu-geek> Gtaylor: I apologize for not understanding your points..
[10:55] <jdodson> jdodson: and roll.
[10:56] <gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: No problem, no hard feelings, and I will try to express my points without causing this much trouble in the future.
[10:56] <jdodson> mako: *ha* its ok.
[10:56] <jdodson> gtaylor: sweet.
[10:56] <Ubuntu-geek> next time please feel free to email me direct.. ryan@emailblue.com
[10:56] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: yeah get on the train here dude..
[10:56] <ubuntu_demon> mako, I'm looking forward to meeting you on the forums
[10:56] <mako> and next time.. take it to the CC instead of into the forums
[10:56] <mako> because things will just escalate
[10:56] <mako> and they did
[10:56] <jdong> correct
[10:57] <mako> and people will say  lto of things they will need to apologize for at the end of a very long meeting
[10:57] <Ubuntu-geek> mako: lol :)
[10:57] <jdong> yeah
[10:57] <Ubuntu-geek> i am i th eonly one to said i was sorry
[10:57] <Ubuntu-geek> geesh i thought others would follow suit..
[10:57] <Ubuntu-geek> ;)
[10:57] <gtaylor> Ubuntu-geek: sorry :0
[10:57] <jdodson> kassetra: your list near completion?
[10:57] <kassetra> jdodson: no, as I said before.
[10:58] <gtaylor> I didn't spell it out but I'm sorry for those I offended, not just ubuntu-geek.
[10:58] <jdodson> kassetra: thats cool, just wondering.  no offense intended.
[10:58] <Ubuntu-geek> thanks everyone.. thanks mako for being here..
[10:58] <froud> c ya
[10:58] <jdodson> i personally want to thank myself.
[10:59] <gtaylor> And it is nice that we were able to discuss this and ease the frustrations of everyone.
[10:59] <gtaylor> A victory for Ubuntu
[10:59] <froud> and mako
[10:59] <jdodson> gtaylor: rock on ubuntu.
[10:59] <froud> a big hand to you dude
[10:59] <froud> your gonna get old before your time if you keep this up
[10:59] <gtaylor> yes, mako, a neutral third party with a level head always helps :)
[11:00] <jdong> yeah
[11:00] <gtaylor> And it's good to see the leaders of Ubuntu take an interest in community matters
[11:00] <gtaylor> When you could be doing other things
[11:00] <gtaylor> (like eating)
[11:00] <jdodson> HA!
[11:00] <jdodson> speaking of.
[11:00] <Ubuntu-geek> or working :)
[11:00] <jdong> along that lines, I hope to see more Ubuntu folks at the forums :)
[11:00] <gtaylor> or that
[11:00] <ubuntu_demon> gtaylor, agreed
[11:00] <Ubuntu-geek> see ya guys
[11:00] <froud> go on scat now!
[11:01] <froud> shoo, shoo
[11:01] <Ubuntu-geek> my email address was posted any feel free to email me direct with forum issues
[11:01] <squinn> Ubuntu-geek, keep up the good work.
[11:01] <ubuntu_demon> everybody keep up the good work :)
[11:02] <Ubuntu-geek> agreed..
[11:02] <squinn> true
[11:03] <ubuntu_demon> So see you guys on tuesday ... bye!
[11:03] <squinn> What's tuesday, ubuntu_demon ?
[11:03] <mako> squinn: CC meeting
[11:03] <squinn> Oh, CC Meeting
[11:03] <squinn> right.
[11:03] <ubuntu_demon> :)
[11:04] <squinn> I was thinking that.
[11:04] <ubuntu_demon> bye!
[11:04] <squinn> Bye.