[01:49] <mdke> evening all
[01:49] <mdke> hows it gone
[01:50] <mdke> mako, still around?
[02:09] <mdke> good meeting
[02:10] <squinn> Hey, mdke..how are ya?
[02:10] <squinn> Sorry for getting lost last night.
[02:11] <mdke> not a problem
[02:11] <mdke> i'm well, you?
[02:15] <mdke> just reading the logs from the forum meeting
[02:15] <mdke> looks like it went well
[02:17] <mdke> damn
[03:05] <jdodson> hey.
[03:05] <jdodson> anyone around?
[03:14] <mdke> damn
[03:14] <mdke> missed im
[03:31] <squinn> mdke, do you have minutes from last nite?
[03:32] <mdke> not yet
[03:32] <mdke> i am gonna do them tomorrow
[03:32] <mdke> squinn ^^
[03:34] <squinn> okay, thanks..mdke lol
[04:14] <mdke> night all
[04:16] <squinn> night mdke 
[08:24] <froud> African greetings
[09:56] <melodie> hello :)
[09:56] <froud> hello melodie 
[09:56] <melodie> hello froud
[09:57] <melodie> I'm coming on Seans invitation:
[09:57] <melodie> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11945
[09:57] <froud> yes that's me
[09:57] <froud> can you explain more on what you are doing?
[09:58] <melodie> yes, I can explain what you wish: I just found this mail from the system
[09:59] <froud> melodie: that document was not shipped
[09:59] <froud> how are you using it?
[09:59] <melodie> there is a copy of this mail as a file in my /home/login I could not miss it
[10:00] <froud> Hmmmm, strange
[10:00] <melodie> I don't know with what dl I got this FAQ
[10:00] <froud> OK, lemme explain
[10:00] <froud> this document is now ported to hoary
[10:00] <melodie> I probably thought it was a good idea to have it, one day...
[10:00] <melodie> I'm under Hoary
[10:00] <froud> it lives in our svn
[10:01] <melodie> ok
[10:01] <melodie> I read your reply
[10:01] <froud> but in order to install it, one must install much more
[10:01] <melodie> such as ?
[10:01] <froud> I would not bother with trying to fix it
[10:02] <melodie> I can uninstall it if it does not belong to an important package
[10:02] <froud> the best thing if you want to work on it is to checkout our svn
[10:02] <froud> yes it can be uninstalled
[10:02] <froud> are you on warty or hoary
[10:02] <melodie> I would like to avoid more messages of this type from Anacron jot :)
[10:03] <melodie> Hoary
[10:03] <froud> OK
[10:03] <melodie> I upgrade from Array 7 prerelease
[10:03] <melodie> upgraded
[10:03] <froud> ok
[10:03] <froud> that explains how you got the file
[10:03] <froud> it was intended to ship
[10:03] <froud> but then we removed it
[10:04] <froud> seems it was not removed during your upgrade
[10:04] <melodie> I cannont check on SVN's: didn't learn and don't have time to learn checkout and so on
[10:04] <froud> it is only worhwhile if you plan on writing to the docs
[10:05] <melodie> I understand, that's why I gave this precision
[10:05] <froud> otherwise you will just be wasting disk space
[10:05] <froud> OK, so I guess that solves your problem
[10:05] <froud> thanks for registering the problem though
[10:05] <melodie> anyhow I understand how XML works but don't know XML writing
[10:05] <melodie> it's ok  :)
[10:06] <froud> cool, any other questions?
[10:06] <melodie> yes
[10:06] <froud> shoot
[10:06] <melodie> how can I found the name package to uninstall ?
[10:07] <froud> uninstall ubuntu-doc and then reinstall it
[10:07] <melodie> oh yes! thanks :)
[10:07] <melodie> does it need '-purge' option ?
[10:07] <froud> the reinstall should only install that which was shipped with hoary
[10:07] <melodie> sure
[10:07] <froud> Hmm, not sure, you can try it
[10:08] <melodie> ok  :)
[10:08] <froud> ok I am going back to work, see ya
[10:08] <melodie> I uninstall and don't reinstall: there are enough docs on the wiki and the web
[10:08] <melodie> bye
[10:08] <melodie> have nice we :)
[10:08] <melodie> thanks you very much
[10:09] <froud> np
[10:09] <melodie> :)
[10:16] <robitaille> it's always nice to have one less bug in the bugzilla.
[10:16] <froud> morn robitaille 
[10:17] <robitaille> actually it's pretty late here (1:17am).  I'm  about to go to bed.
[10:18] <froud> He he
[10:18] <froud> well then, African Greetings
[10:19] <robitaille> just wasted way too much time in gimp to come up with my own little picture for planet.ubuntu
[10:19] <froud> Hmmm just use Inkscape and do it in vectors
[10:19] <robitaille> gimp is one of the application I have never liked the interface
[10:19] <robitaille> yeah, I will try Inkscape next time.
[10:20] <mpt> Someone needs to fork the Gimp
[10:20] <mpt> And fix the problem of the horrible name and the dodgy interface in one fell swoop
[10:21] <froud> mpt: as usual your are ever so radical a revolutionary :-)
[10:22] <mpt> Well, they could have renamed themselves and come up with a non-sucky interface themselves over the past ... what, five years?
[10:22] <mpt> but they haven't
[10:22] <mpt> :-)
[10:22] <mpt> Lack of sleep
[10:23] <robitaille> didn't they promised version 2 will have a lot better interface than v1?  It's seems different, but similar at the same time
[10:23] <mpt> Decent image editing software is the pre-requisite to a bunch of areas of market share
[10:23] <mpt> Web design
[10:23] <froud> participation in FOSS projects leads to sleep deprevivation
[10:23] <mpt> DTP
[10:23] <froud> DTP = Scribus
[10:23] <mpt> Yeah, have you actually tried to use Scribus?
[10:23] <froud> Yeah, pain
[10:24] <froud> we have a mag here in co.za
[10:24] <froud> called tectonic
[10:24] <froud> its here http://www.tectonic.co.za
[10:25] <froud> The editor wanted to use scribus for the dtp
[10:25] <mpt> Pre-requisite perhaps isn't quite the right word ... I mean there are plenty of people who need high-end image editing software but don't need DTP software, but there are many fewer people who need DTP software but don't need high-end image editing software.
[10:25] <froud> went back to quark
[10:25] <froud> dude I am with you on this one
[10:25] <froud> totally agree
[10:26] <froud> Now InDesign, there is something I like
[10:26] <mpt> yeah
[10:26] <mpt> Strategically it's a bit horrid
[10:26] <froud> Have you seen how it brings in photoshop
[10:26] <froud> man you can layer text inside the photoshop images
[10:27] <froud> it keeps photoshop layers
[10:27] <froud> way cool dude
[10:27] <mpt> You can do that with Quark 6.5 too, which is a free upgrade from 6.0
[10:27] <froud> yeah quark still rocks, but InDesign is doing some great stuff
[10:30] <robitaille> time to go to bed.  good night.
[10:30] <mpt> One the one hand, coming up with decent DTP software now would *perhaps* be more likely to eat Mac market share than Windows market share (depending on how much the rest of Ubuntu's interface was improved), especially over the next 2~4 years, and Apple provides Linux-based OSes with a lot of strategic cover
[10:31] <froud> night robi
[10:31] <mpt> On the other hand, if most DTPers over the next few years switch from Quark to InDesign, by the time Linux-based OSes have decent DTP server, people will roll their eyes and not want to switch again.
[10:32] <froud> mpt: Mac is Mac, it rocks becuase it has roots in FreeBSD :-)
[10:33] <mpt> server->software
[10:33] <mpt> (when I get tired I don't mess up letters, I mess up entire words)
[10:33] <froud>  he he, we understand
[10:34] <froud> when you have some time I want to better understand your help proposal
[10:34] <mpt> I've never used Quark *or* InDesign, I've got no dog in that fight, I just care about Ubuntu :-)
[10:35] <froud> Kubuntu dude, come to Kubuntu
[10:35] <rob^> why kubuntu?
[10:35] <mpt> But I suppose it's a moot point as long as nobody's putting serious money into developing creative software
[10:35] <mpt> Are you accusing me of being a fish, froud
[10:35] <froud> Kubuntu is light years ahead
[10:35] <rob^> froud, whats wrong with gnome then?
[10:35] <mpt> )><)))>
[10:36] <froud> he he
[10:36] <froud> just a lost one
[10:36] <mpt> I installed Konqueror, just for testing Launchpad on KHTML
[10:36] <mpt> THE SCROLLBARS HAVE THREE ARROW BUTTONS EACH
[10:36] <froud> ooooo noooo
[10:36] <mpt> craaaaaaaaaack
[10:37] <froud> Konqueror is only good for its kioslaves
[10:37] <froud> not as a browser
[10:37] <froud> for serious browsing I still install FF
[10:37] <mpt> I'll switch to KDE when they stop using the letter K.
[10:38] <mpt> And when they switch to the One True Dialog Button Ordering.
[10:38] <froud> but kde desktop rocks
[10:38] <froud> and the transulent stuff is way cool
[10:38] <rob^> I guess its what your used to
[10:38] <froud> hows about a mac style program bar
[10:38] <froud> for you
[10:38] <mpt> oooo, yes
[10:39] <froud> the one on top
[10:39] <froud> come to kde dude and you got it
[10:39] <mpt> mmm, come into this swamp and we'll give you a free pair of waders
[10:40] <mpt> :->
[10:40] <froud> OK I am going back to reviewing the kwickguide
[10:50] <mpt> froud: We can talk about HelpfulHelp tomorrow when I'm more awake and less cranky
[10:50] <froud> good idea
[11:14] <Njal> So this is the documentation team
[11:14] <Njal> cool
[11:14] <froud> welcome
[11:14] <Njal> I have been pointed here coz i have an idea and it would be best to let you guys know about it
[11:14] <froud> shoot
[11:14] <froud> ideas are good
[11:15] <Njal> I hard copy of a manual
[11:15] <froud> yes
[11:15] <Njal> Not like the online guide an actualy installation and configuration manual
[11:15] <froud> ok
[11:15] <Njal> that would come with the cd's in shipit
[11:15] <froud> yes
[11:15] <Njal> or you could order 
[11:15] <froud> yes
[11:16] <froud> Njal: you are spot on
[11:16] <froud> Njal: we are working in Docbook XML
[11:16] <froud> Njal: this enables us to produce PDF
[11:16] <froud> and other formats
[11:16] <froud> we have a number of books in progress
[11:16] <froud> all ofwhich can be produced in electonic an dprint formats
[11:16] <Njal> ah cool, may i ask how far along this is?
[11:17] <froud> It takes time
[11:17] <froud> the best way to help is to help write the books
[11:17] <froud> are you up to it
[11:17] <Njal> It'll be easier than maintaining backports :P
[11:18] <froud> that's what you think :-)
[11:18] <froud> Here are the projects https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
[11:18] <froud> Are you a gubuntu or kubuntu user
[11:19] <Njal> If i can help i will, but like the best of us we have lives, and i will be on holiday for three weeks soon
[11:19] <Njal> :$
[11:19] <Njal> But i am happy to help
[11:19] <froud> Njal: that is why it takes time (see above)
[11:19] <froud> we currently have goals for breezy
[11:20] <Njal> I am gnome
[11:20] <froud> we are aiming stong at user guides for ubuntu and kubuntu
[11:20] <froud> as I said the best way to make books a thing in shipit is to help write them
[11:20] <froud> have you worked with svn before?
[11:21] <Njal> nope
[11:21] <Njal> i don't even know what that is
[11:21] <froud> have you worked with cvs
[11:21] <froud> OK Njal do you have time I will hel pyou get started
[11:22] <froud> its not that hard
[11:22] <Njal> CVS thats ... um concurrent versioning system right?
[11:22] <Njal> it
[11:22] <froud> and we would very much like to hold your hand
[11:22] <froud> yep
[11:22] <Njal> um moniters changes in files
[11:22] <froud> so svn is cvs, without the wrinkles
[11:22] <Njal> static?
[11:23] <froud> its the place we keep our files
[11:23] <froud> it helps us collaborate on the project and makes sure we dont clobber each others work
[11:23] <Njal> Unfortunatly i cannot start today, i could probibly start looking 2moro afternoon/night
[11:23] <Njal> If that's ok
[11:23] <froud> fair enough I just wanted to get you installed
[11:23] <froud> takes about 20 mins
[11:24] <Njal> I have about 5 :$
[11:24] <froud> Ok then later
[11:24] <froud> you are welcome
[11:24] <Njal> Thanks though, i like being involved and as i keep saying i am no programmer yet, i just wanna help where i can
[11:24] <froud> we dont need programmers here
[11:25] <Njal> I know
[11:25] <froud> we just need passion and enthusiasm
[11:25] <Njal> I got that
[11:25] <froud> dedication is also good
[11:25] <Njal> Well i'll do all i can
[11:25] <froud> and of course if you want to work night and day and not have a life that is most appreciated
[11:26] <Njal> Then my gf tells me off, though i'm fairly new to linux really only the past couple of years so i might need a little technical info from time to timo
[11:27] <Njal> I can work out how to install etc but some things i just dont understand yet
[11:28] <Njal> Also if this is a problem i cant seem to run VMware, i am under the impression that it's used to grab screen shots?
[11:29] <froud> not always
[11:29] <froud> some of us run qemu for low level capture
[11:29] <froud> but mostly we use imagemagic
[11:29] <Njal> Actually i think i have that on a disc
[11:29] <froud> but would not worry, there is lots of gui work to do
[11:30] <froud> qemu is cool for under linux
[11:30] <froud> does not work onwindows
[11:30] <froud> but we really suggest you install ubuntu or kubuntu and point at the breezy repositories
[11:31] <froud> the down of that is the breezy breaks
[11:31] <froud> its under heavy development
[11:31] <Njal> Is breezy stable enough, yeah that's what i thought
[11:31] <Njal> Im just apt-getting qemu, might as well
[11:31] <froud> You can use the prerelease ISO images
[11:32] <froud> not as interactive as the repositories, but much safer
[11:32] <Njal> I have bb so i could just edit /etc/apt/sources.list
[11:32] <froud> well its up to you
[11:32] <froud> some of us dont mind having our machines breaking
[11:33] <froud> lucky for me I use lab machines
[11:33] <Njal> Again when i have more time, i will sort out breezy, well to be honest now i don't need it as much since i have now finished college
[11:33] <Njal> Breaks should not matter as much
[11:33] <froud> again its up to you
[11:34] <froud> you know by now I could have had you installed and ready to look at the books :-)
[11:34] <Njal> I know, my ride's late... as always
[11:35] <froud> OK I am going bck to work
[11:35] <froud> c ya around I hope
[11:35] <Njal> Yeah i'll prolly come back on 2moro
[11:35] <froud> if I am not here ask somebody here to help you get started
[11:35] <Njal> thanks for a 'feel' of the place
[11:35] <Njal> bye
[11:36] <froud> yep, np, you are like totally empowered here to get involved and make a difference, its up to you
[11:36] <froud> oh well
[11:36] <froud> the intent was good :-)
[11:58] <sivang> hey froud 
[11:58] <sivang> hey nj
[11:58] <froud> hey I am writing a response
[11:58] <froud> :-)
[12:22] <froud> response sent
[12:29] <froud> sivang: is the mailing list slow or is it my imagination?
[12:30] <mdke> all the ubuntu lists are a little slow
[12:30] <mdke> (morning)
[12:30] <froud> Hmmm, morning
[12:56] <mdke> froud, you sent something to the list?
[01:11] <froud> mdke: yes
[01:11] <froud> and I have numerous commits today
[01:11] <froud> but nothing has come through
[01:18] <mdke> erm
[01:19] <mdke> screenshots?
[01:19] <froud> no
[01:19] <froud> mail
[01:19] <froud> and the usual commits to svn
[01:20] <mdke> oh you mean commits by others?
[01:20] <mdke> hmm
[01:20] <froud> no my commits
[01:20] <mdke> yes, but what are they?
[01:20] <froud> have you received any messages from the commit list
[01:20] <mdke> nope
[01:20] <mdke> i'm just updating svn now
[01:20] <froud> well then there is a problem
[01:20] <mdke> i see lots of screenshots and edubuntu
[01:21] <froud> I have done about 12 commits
[01:21] <mdke> so you're back with the team?
[01:21] <froud> just visiting
[01:21] <mdke> *sighs*
[01:22] <froud> dude its not so easy
[01:22] <froud> I need to make sure
[01:22] <mdke> well if you are committing, then you are working on the team surely
[01:22] <froud> but I also dont want the world falling apart because I am not here
[01:22] <froud> maybe
[01:22] <mdke> the world will not fall apart ;)
[01:22] <froud> you missed the forums meeting yesterday
[01:23] <froud> it nearly did
[01:23] <mdke> i know i missed it
[01:23] <mdke> no it didn't
[01:23] <froud> and somehow became a docteam vs forums fight
[01:23] <mdke> froud, i read the logs
[01:23] <froud> had to step in a make our position clear
[01:24] <froud> also I cant allow invalid docbook in svn
[01:24] <mdke> I have exchanged a number of messages with ubuntu-geek
[01:24] <mdke> you can't allow it?
[01:24] <mdke> why not?
[01:24] <froud> because if I come back full time I will have a mountain of things to fix
[01:24] <mdke> mate
[01:25] <mdke> if you work on the team, you will not be responsible for fixing everything
[01:25] <froud> besides the sitrap with yelp etc is not resolved
[01:25] <mdke> you are part of a team
[01:25] <mdke> froud, that will need to be resolved with the technical board
[01:25] <froud> he he, but ppl are not fixing it
[01:25] <froud> which means they dont see a problem
[01:25] <froud> well I explained to sabdfl
[01:25] <mdke> [12:23:24]  bob2 lists.ubuntu.com is temporarily screwed
[01:26] <froud> who does not see my route as unreasonable
[01:26] <mdke> your route?
[01:26] <froud> yes, HTML
[01:26] <mdke> should the issue not be discussed with the whole docteam?
[01:26] <froud> it was
[01:26] <froud> mdke: ppl have short memory
[01:27] <mdke> ok
[01:27] <mdke> whatever you say
[01:27] <froud> of course :-)
[01:27] <mdke> but to a certain extent what happened was, you said "I'm developing a web based help reader which we will use for breezy"
[01:27] <froud> no I said I am developing a web-based app
[01:28] <froud> any browser
[01:28] <mdke> yeah sorry
[01:28] <mdke> but my point doesn't change
[01:29] <froud> mdke: you know there comes a time when one has to ask, "Am I working in the right way?"
[01:29] <mdke> that's what I'm asking you
[01:29] <froud> So far I have explained why and I know it is the best solution for us
[01:29] <mdke> look, lets make this clear, yelp is not that satisfactory
[01:29] <mdke> BUT
[01:30] <mdke> you can't make decisions like that on your own without consulting the technical board
[01:30] <froud> Hmmm you still miss the point
[01:30] <mdke> also, it should be the whole docteam discussing the matter
[01:30] <froud> the whole doc team was two ppl
[01:30] <mdke> preferably in a meeting
[01:30] <froud> enrico and I
[01:30] <froud> then came you good fellows
[01:30] <froud> its not your fault
[01:30] <froud> its mine
[01:31] <froud> the decision was made long back
[01:31] <froud> of course with discussion of members who are no longer with us
[01:31] <froud> alas
[01:31] <mdke> froud, i know that you have done the bulk of the work for the team for a while, but I just want to point out, from the point of view of handling the team as a whole, that you have a tendency to make decisions on your own
[01:32] <mdke> now that may or may not be justified, given the amount of time you put into the team
[01:32] <mdke> but it can make things difficult
[01:32] <froud> Hmmm I like to see it as direction
[01:32] <mdke> i'm just trying to point out how others might see it
[01:33] <froud> the technical vision is clear and works
[01:33] <mdke> that may be true
[01:33] <mdke> but the decision should be made at a team level, and consultation with the Ubuntu technical board is essential
[01:33] <froud> mdke: understand that until last meeting this team was not even recognized as an official team
[01:34] <froud> we did consult ppl
[01:34] <mdke> well then the emphasis should have been on making it one
[01:34] <froud> we got noting
[01:34] <mdke> well now there is a clear process
[01:35] <mdke> there are a number of technical issues to be discussed at a docteam meeting, and then proposals can be made to the technical board
[01:35] <froud> the fact that all of a sardine ppl start taking an interest should not derail the technical vision
[01:35] <froud> based on religious issues
[01:35] <mdke> all I am saying, is that the vision is yours
[01:35] <mdke> and it should be everyone's, including the TB
[01:35] <froud> dude I was th eonly person here
[01:35] <froud> who elses vision coul dit be
[01:36] <froud> :-)
[01:36] <mdke> well you have my point
[01:36] <mdke> no point going into repetition
[01:36] <froud> no
[01:36] <froud> so all I ask
[01:36] <froud> is see my reasoning
[01:36] <froud> if it is wrong then the team will change it
[01:37] <mdke> i will see your reasoning, but as long as you put proposals in the correct way
[01:37] <froud> but I am hard to convince
[01:37] <froud> yo dude th elist is full of them
[01:37] <froud> no answers
[01:37] <mdke> froud, the team doesn't have to convince you, you have to convince the team, then the technical board
[01:37] <mdke> that's how it works
[01:37] <froud> when no answer = consent
[01:37] <froud> not quite
[01:37] <froud> the tool set is here
[01:38] <froud> it is made using my IP
[01:38] <froud> I give that as a gift
[01:38] <mdke> erm
[01:38] <mdke> what you just said sounds like blackmail
[01:38] <froud> if TB and TEAM want me to work, then they must convince me otherwise
[01:39] <froud> no just the real fact
[01:39] <froud> mdke: ask yourself
[01:39] <froud> would you want to work in a way that you know is wrong
[01:39] <mdke> froud, one thing I have learnt since I've been helping out in the doc team and the italian team, is that the teams are more important than the people
[01:39] <mdke> froud, i agree with you
[01:39] <froud> team is very important
[01:40] <froud> hence I want to start taking a back seat
[01:40] <mdke> froud, so the options are, 1. convince people through the proper channels, 2. put up with it, or 3. stop working, this is clearly set out in the Code of Conduct
[01:40] <froud> Hmmm
[01:40] <mdke> i don't think 1 will be particularly difficult
[01:40] <mdke> but it has to be done
[01:40] <froud> mdke: I am not unreasonable
[01:40] <mdke> i know
[01:40] <froud> if ppl take the time to hear what I am say
[01:40] <froud> at present they are not
[01:41] <froud> and yet they dont have half the knowledge of docbook I have
[01:41] <mdke> froud, they will, but you need to discuss the matter at a docteam meeting, then put a proposal to the technical board
[01:41] <froud> Hmmm
[01:41] <mdke> both sets of people will take account of your expertise
[01:41] <froud> dude I beg to differ
[01:41] <mdke> ok
[01:41] <mdke> last thing I will say
[01:42] <froud> I dont aim for member/mainatiner and @ubuntu.com email clubbing
[01:42] <mdke> you've gotta work within the teams
[01:42] <froud> I do
[01:42] <froud> very well
[01:42] <froud> and am very productive
[01:42] <mdke> i know
[01:42] <mdke> but nothing is bigger than the teams and the system set up
[01:42] <froud> this is a technical issue
[01:42] <froud> not personal
[01:42] <mdke> individuals like you and me certainly are not
[01:43] <mdke> if the teams and the system don't work, the solution is improving the system, not going alone
[01:43] <froud> belive me I know that and I trust the community
[01:43] <mdke> that is what I hope that the meeting will have achieved
[01:43] <mdke> to improve the system
[01:43] <froud> mdke: when you are alone you go alone
[01:44] <mdke> anyway
[01:44] <mdke> i believe the infrastructure is now in place to resolve the yelp issues, and other technical issues
[01:44] <mdke> i will write up the meeting minutes and we can go from there
[01:44] <froud> mdke: do you think I would be sticking to my guns if I did not have good reason
[01:45] <froud> on what do you base that?
[01:45] <mdke> froud, i see people every day sticking to their guns without good reason, but I know that you have a good reason, it just needs to be expressed properly
[01:45] <froud> the yelp issues are years from being resolved
[01:45] <mdke> froud, you have proposed a solution
[01:45] <froud> mdke: 20 min chat with sabdfl and he understood
[01:45] <mdke> froud, this can be discussed as a team, and with the technical board
[01:46] <froud> I dont hol dmuch chance for myself there
[01:46] <froud> there is a shift in the force that is greater than I
[01:46] <froud> I am not part of the club
[01:46] <froud> and dont aim to be
[01:46] <mdke> no offence, but that is rubbish
[01:47] <mdke> the technical board is not a club
[01:47] <froud> I dont do because sabdfl says or anyone esle
[01:47] <mdke> nor incidentally is the Community Council
[01:47] <froud> dude
[01:47] <froud> what is a member
[01:47] <mdke> the members of the technical board are there due to expertise
[01:47] <froud> mdke I am not driven for ubuntu sake
[01:48] <froud> and there is the rift
[01:48] <mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
[01:48] <mdke> phone
[01:48] <froud> I am driven for technical sake
[01:49] <mdke> back
[01:50] <mdke> oh well
[01:50] <froud> mdke: ok
[01:50] <froud> mdke: there are a number of breaks between me an ubuntu
[01:50] <mdke> right
[01:50] <froud> religious issues is one
[01:51] <mdke> you use that term a lot
[01:51] <mdke> but there are two sides to religious issues
[01:51] <froud> my intent has and always will be for the good of the project
[01:51] <mdke> of course
[01:51] <froud> I do not feel that bending to religious issues is being true to myslef of the project
[01:52] <froud> if the religion is politically stronger then I am the opposition party
[01:52] <mdke> but as the opposition party you also have a religion
[01:52] <froud> I wont just say yes, because th epower said so
[01:52] <mdke> there are two sides to arguments
[01:53] <froud> well party line
[01:53] <mdke> i think that mark made it totally clear that they will help us in development of technologies, with virtual servers and such
[01:53] <froud> great
[01:53] <froud> but that is not my focus of issue
[01:53] <froud> I spoke to him yesterday
[01:54] <froud> I asked him if he understood
[01:54] <mdke> but it is normal that if you are working within a group such as Ubuntu, you have to accept their judgment on many things
[01:54] <froud> he did not
[01:54] <froud> and asked me to explain
[01:54] <mdke> if you don't, the important thing is that you can try and convince them
[01:54] <froud> 20 mins later he said "it sounds reasonable"
[01:54] <mdke> i'm glad about that
[01:55] <froud> but all this noise is not good
[01:55] <mdke> that doesn't mean that you don't have to convince the docteam and TB about any changes that you want to make to how help is viewed in Ubuntu
[01:55] <froud> I want focus on making content
[01:55] <mdke> froud, in that case, focus on content!
[01:55] <froud> I do
[01:55] <mdke> not quite
[01:55] <froud> but how I do my markup and what techniques I use
[01:56] <froud> I will write docs using my method that I know works
[01:56] <froud> well not my method
[01:56] <mdke> i'm afraid that is quite simply not correct
[01:56] <froud> the std
[01:56] <froud> but it is
[01:56] <froud> just look at our sources
[01:57] <froud> look at any of the docs I am involved with
[01:57] <mdke> if you want to work outside the parameters of what Ubuntu currently does (and I agree, it may be a good idea), you gotta convince them to change it before you go ahead and write qanda and profile stuff
[01:57] <froud> look at our custom layers
[01:57] <mdke> i like the layers
[01:57] <froud> hang on
[01:57] <froud> "if you want to work outside the parameters"
[01:57] <froud> dude I made the parameter
[01:57] <mdke> answer me this
[01:58] <froud> I am inside not outside
[01:58] <mdke> does the faqguide.xml or installguide.xml open correctly in yelp
[01:58] <mdke> ?
[01:58] <froud> not, not intended to
[01:58] <mdke> right
[01:58] <mdke> were the docs released in hoary made in xml and compatible with yelp?
[01:58] <froud> and why is that a problem
[01:58] <froud> no
[01:59] <mdke> don't be obtuse
[01:59] <froud> no 
[01:59] <froud> they were not
[01:59] <mdke> look
[01:59] <mdke> in my Ubuntu I have some xml files which get opened by yelp
[01:59] <froud> we had to fix much to make it work dude
[01:59] <mdke> ok
[01:59] <froud> yes
[01:59] <mdke> so you have changed the parameters since then
[01:59] <froud> you know how much we had to go backward to make that work
[01:59] <froud> no
[01:59] <mdke> lets make it clear, I am _NOT_ saying it is a bad idea
[01:59] <mdke> but it has to be decided properly
[02:00] <froud> he he
[02:00] <froud> I lov eyou
[02:00] <froud> mdke: the picture is bigger than yelp
[02:00] <mdke> yeah i know
[02:00] <mdke> i'm simplifying
[02:00] <mdke> to try and make myself clearer
[02:01] <froud> mdke: I think everyone should read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
[02:02] <mdke> everyone?
[02:02] <froud> yes
[02:02] <froud> it will clear up much talking
[02:02] <mdke> froud, no one doubts your expertise
[02:02] <mdke> i respect and admire you
[02:02] <froud> I am proposing and currently using the full feature set of docbook
[02:03] <mdke> I know that
[02:03] <JonA> froud: Any particular sections of that document, or all of it?
[02:03] <froud> its the only way to achieve our goals
[02:03] <mdke> i am just trying to indicate to you the proper way to go about convincing Ubuntu of your ideas
[02:03] <froud> all of it, importance on html
[02:03] <mdke> the proper way is NOT to go ahead
[02:03] <mdke> and then complain about noise
[02:03] <froud> mdke: fine, but the ears may be deaf
[02:04] <froud> open minds are needed
[02:04] <mdke> if Ubuntu's ears are deaf, then the idea fails
[02:04] <mdke> and Ubuntu loses out, if the idea was a good one
[02:04] <mdke> that is their problem
[02:04] <mdke> but you have to respect their processes
[02:04] <froud> hmmm and all my work goes pooooof
[02:04] <froud> no quite
[02:04] <mdke> you have to respect the processes before doing the work
[02:05] <froud> I have
[02:05] <froud> and continue to
[02:05] <mdke> listen sean we have both said everything we are gonna say now ;)
[02:05] <froud> but convincing me on a technical issue when ppl dont have a technical understanding is not the way to do it
[02:05] <mdke> we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue
[02:06] <froud> I am hard to argue with on this subject :-)
[02:06] <mdke> if the process works, the people will take into account the technical expertise of the person putting the proposal
[02:06] <froud> the process does work I have pointe dto use cases
[02:06] <froud> but that does not seem to be enough
[02:06] <mdke> i mean the Ubuntu process
[02:07] <froud> mpt: longhorn is based on docbook
[02:07] <mpt> MAML is based on DocBook?
[02:07] <mpt> It doesn't look very similar
[02:07] <froud> the longhorn help system is based on docbook
[02:08] <mpt> Well, it has <section> and <para>
[02:09] <froud> mpt: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5917
[02:13] <froud> mpt: ms took docbook and extended it then the closed it in a proprietry compiler and runtime
[02:14] <mpt> Ah, they added stuff useful for help
[02:14] <froud> http://www.help-info.de/en/Help_Info_Longhorn/longhorn_overview.htm
[02:14] <mpt> like conditional text
[02:14] <mpt> yes, I'd already seen that :-)
[02:14] <froud> "Help authors will use Microsoft Assistance Markup Language (MAML), the XML-based markup language to develop "Longhorn" Help. MAML is based on the already available DocBook format."
[02:15] <froud> the docbook community intends creating xsl for transformation of db 2 maml
[02:15] <froud> the same way it has the html-help stylesheets
[02:16] <froud> so that text done in docbook can be compiled into chm files
[02:16] <froud> providing that ms keeps maml std open
[02:17] <froud> they will do it
[02:17] <froud> I think some are already working on it
[02:17] <mpt> The "Semantic vs. presentation" section in that last link is why I (half-seriously) suggested HTML 1.0 as a good format for help
[02:17] <froud> and it is a good suggestion
[02:18] <froud> the problem is being able to deploy your own stylesheet
[02:19] <froud> and this is one of the problems with yelp currently
[02:19] <froud> you can't
[02:19] <mpt> That's not a bug, it's a feature
[02:19] <froud> well not easily
[02:19] <froud> yeah feature
[02:20] <froud> but if you want to make maximum us eof docbook you need to use all its features
[02:20] <mpt> The point is not "to make maximum use of docbook"
[02:20] <mpt> the point is "to help people use Ubuntu"
[02:20] <froud> bingo
[02:20] <mpt> Giving help different fonts/colors/padding/whatever per program does nothing to help people use Ubuntu
[02:20] <mpt> it just makes things inconsistent
[02:20] <froud> by using all docbook features we can do that
[02:21] <froud> mpt: I am not on the presentational layer
[02:21] <froud> I am on the semantic layer
[02:21] <mpt> Apple messed that up when they did their help viewer
[02:21] <froud> mpt: the reality is that it is not an easy ting
[02:22] <mpt> All the system help was full of <p><font face="Geneva" size="2">foo</font></p> <p><font face="Geneva" size="2">bar</font></p>
[02:22] <froud> od dear
[02:22] <mpt> I wonder if it's like that now
[02:23] <mpt> As of 10.3 they're using WebKit to render the HTML
[02:23] <mpt> so I guess it allows style sheets
[02:23] <froud> mpt: as I said I think everyone must read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
[02:23] <froud> then they can understand what I am on about
[02:24] <froud> I want tools such as Index and Glossary
[02:24] <mpt> wow, that looks like it'll take a few days to read
[02:25] <froud> yeah and understand
[02:25] <mdke> its not that we don't want the tools
[02:25] <mdke> in my case, I am only talking about the right way to get them
[02:25] <mpt> Yeah, Apple Help is still that bad
[02:25] <mpt> A sample:
[02:26] <froud> Ah Konqueror kioslaves help:fooapp
[02:27] <froud> imagine you could do that in any gnome window
[02:27] <mpt> <TR HEIGHT="1"><TD HEIGHT="1" WIDTH="157"></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="157"><FONT FACE="Helvetica,Arial" SIZE="2"><B><A HREF="eq/eqRTOC.htm" TARGET="_right">Expanding your computer's capabilities</A></B></FONT></TD></TR>
[02:28] <froud> mpt: well what can I say
[02:28] <froud> I am not on about presentation layer or tools
[02:28] <mpt> I'm *all* about the presentation layer :-)
[02:28] <froud> what concerns me most is publishing features
[02:29] <froud> yes
[02:29] <froud> :-)
[02:29] <froud> and I lov eyou for it
[02:29] <froud> so I dont have to do it
[02:29] <froud> but my aim is publishing features
[02:30] <mpt> I thought an index would be useless given a search function
[02:30] <froud> I want help but I also want printed books being shipped from shipit
[02:30] <mpt> but from my reading, people like an index anyway
[02:30] <mpt> books != help
[02:30] <froud> correct
[02:30] <mpt> For books, DocBook may be appropriate
[02:30] <froud> !=
[02:30] <mpt> For PDFs, probably not
[02:30] <froud> bingo
[02:30] <mpt> For help, perhaps
[02:30] <froud> docbook good for books
[02:31] <froud> hence all help in lin is books
[02:31] <froud> DITA good for help
[02:31] <mpt> which is broken
[02:31] <froud> yes :-)
[02:31] <froud> but I cant change that
[02:32] <froud> I have enough of a battle with ubuntu, imagine taking on the whole FOSS world
[02:32] <froud> DITA is much better for online help
[02:32] <mpt> Breezy+1: take on Gnome :-)
[02:33] <froud> mpt: one of the problems I have with your helful help proposal is based on this problem
[02:33] <froud> I like th eidea
[02:33] <froud> your think ing is spot on
[02:33] <froud> but practical
[02:34] <froud> it needs a different working emthod and writing style
[02:34] <mpt> yep
[02:34] <froud> but +1 for the direction
[02:35] <froud> if you think you can turn everyone around then I will be their to help you :-)
[02:35] <froud> of course I will cheer from the back :-)
[02:35] <mpt> haha
[02:35] <froud> but its a big bullet
[02:35] <mpt> Well, first give Ubuntu decent help
[02:36] <mpt> Then show Gnome people what it looks like
[02:36] <froud> first convince them to use DITA
[02:36] <froud> then train ppl to use DITA
[02:36] <froud> then create the tools to display DITA
[02:36] <froud> that's a long road
[02:38] <froud> anyway, once you have read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html maybe you will understand why I want to transform our xml to html at packaging time
[02:38] <mpt> ugh, they don't even have example documents on the Web
[02:38] <mpt> only in a zip
[02:38] <froud> who
[02:38] <mpt> IBM
[02:38] <mpt> for DITA
[02:38] <froud> right
[02:39] <froud> the reality is that we will have to use DITA, but make it open at the applictaion layer ;-)
[02:39] <mpt> So why is today the first time I've seen anyone mention it?
[02:39] <froud> its not foss
[02:39] <mpt> And does yelp support it?
[02:39] <froud> I dunno
[02:39] <froud> no way dude
[02:40] <froud> :-) lolol
[02:40] <froud> cough cough
[02:41] <froud> mpt: so are you up to reforming the whole foss world
[02:41] <mpt> All their examples are broken
[02:41] <jsgotangco> hello
[02:41] <froud> yes, no good examples
[02:41] <froud> but trust me the DITA is best for help
[02:42] <jsgotangco> ahem hello
[02:42] <jsgotangco> :)
[02:42] <mpt> hmm, no, actually, Firefox is broken
[02:42] <froud> jsgotangco: hi
[02:42] <mpt> Is Firefox supposed to support XSL?
[02:42] <froud> no
[02:42] <jsgotangco> are we talking about infrastructure again?
[02:42] <mpt> that explains it, then
[02:42] <froud> use IE
[02:42] <froud> :-)
[02:43] <froud> jsgotangco: just discussing mpts helpful help
[02:43] <mpt> jsgotangco: Yeah, I was just sitting quietly by myself and froud jumped on me with a new file format for everyone to write help in
[02:43] <froud> I did not jump you
[02:44] <jsgotangco> new file format?
[02:44] <froud> I am discussing helpful help
[02:44] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[02:44] <froud> no jsgotangco dont listen to him he is stirring
[02:44] <mpt> jsgotangco: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-dita1/
[02:44] <jsgotangco> DITA
[02:44] <jsgotangco> NOOOOOOO
[02:44] <mdke> *grins*
[02:44] <mpt> Actually, now that I look more closely, that page has a heading starting with the word "Toward"
[02:44] <mdke> i have been having a massive argument with froud about the best way to make his ideas heard
[02:44] <froud> jsgotangco: if mpt is to realize the vision of helful help then DITA is the way
[02:44] <mpt> Therefore, it is to be avoided
[02:45] <froud> jsgotangco: that is true
[02:45] <froud> :-)
[02:45] <jsgotangco> 1 question
[02:45] <froud> o hoh
[02:45] <jsgotangco> POSSIBLE FOR BREEZY?
[02:45] <froud> no way dude
[02:45] <froud> its a revolution
[02:45] <jsgotangco> :)
[02:46] <froud> but mpt is spot on about how help should be written
[02:46] <jsgotangco> ok let's say we're going to stir up the natives with DITA
[02:46] <froud> but docbook is not as good as DITA for realizing what he is saying
[02:46] <mpt> May 3rd, 2005 - Darwin Information Typing Architecture (DITA) v1.0 has been approved as an OASIS Standard.
[02:46] <mpt> What was that you were saying about it not being FOSS, froud? :-)
[02:46] <froud> yes
[02:47] <froud> a standard
[02:47] <jsgotangco> ok 
[02:47] <froud> but not used in FOSS
[02:47] <jsgotangco> its OASIS so i guess its worth looking
[02:47] <froud> which is why I suggested it
[02:47] <jsgotangco> froud: YELP/KHELPCENTER
[02:47] <mdke> i'm off
[02:47] <mdke> back later
[02:47] <froud> off by
[02:47] <jsgotangco> froud: BROWSER is the sure way to go for the future
[02:47] <mdke> jsgotangco, will get the minutes out eventually
[02:48] <froud> yes like kde
[02:48] <jsgotangco> mdke thanks, i met some local Ubuntu enthusiasts at the mall today
[02:48] <mpt> jsgotangco: as in HTML?
[02:48] <froud> yes
[02:48] <froud> kde does html
[02:48] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:48] <froud> but the kde doc respos in docbook
[02:48] <froud> and is bigger than gnome
[02:48] <jsgotangco> monodoc does it in html too
[02:49] <froud> yes
[02:49] <jsgotangco> mozembed, etc.
[02:49] <mpt> jsgotangco: Why do you think Microsoft is moving away from HTML help?
[02:49] <froud> they are not
[02:49] <jsgotangco> compiled help?
[02:49] <froud> mpt: ms is using xml as source and will transform to html on the fly
[02:50] <mpt> froud: For their source
[02:50] <froud> mpt: but once ms gets something they have the buck to make it work all the way, not like yelp
[02:50] <froud> mpt: yes
[02:50] <froud> MAML is just the src format
[02:50] <froud> like db is to us
[02:50] <mpt> You just told me you were on the semantic layer, froud
[02:50] <froud> I am
[02:51] <mpt> The semantic layer for WinHelp was HTML
[02:51] <froud> its confusion for you
[02:51] <mpt> now it will no longer be.
[02:51] <froud> mpt: no
[02:51] <froud> the src and the presentation layer for winhelp was html
[02:51] <jsgotangco> eww
[02:51] <froud> now MAML
[02:51] <froud> xml is src (semantic)
[02:52] <froud> the prsentation will be what ever you want
[02:52] <jsgotangco> froud ok hold on
[02:52] <jsgotangco> need to clear up something here
[02:52] <froud> k
[02:52] <jsgotangco> will this new thing you are proposing needs some special backend stuff or no
[02:53] <froud> I am not proposing it, but yes
[02:53] <froud> I am just saying that in order to do help like mpt describes you will need dita
[02:53] <mpt> ENOTBREEZY
[02:53] <jsgotangco> ok because anything that is "revolutionary" would definitely be a good candidate for our own linode server
[02:54] <froud> time
[02:54] <froud> time
[02:54] <froud> time
[02:54] <froud> who is gonna do all this
[02:54] <froud> who has the time
[02:54] <jsgotangco> froud if i get you the linode server, you can do whatever you want
[02:54] <mpt> not me, I just want to write in a format that I can preview with a click of one button
[02:54] <froud> jsgotangco: I am not sure we need it
[02:54] <jsgotangco> we're not doing it then
[02:55] <froud> no
[02:55] <froud> it is a discussion
[02:55] <froud> mpt: has spent lots of time writing HelpfulHelp
[02:55] <jsgotangco> froud we can use ourr own svn instead of asking elmo
[02:55] <jsgotangco> i've been reading about baz
[02:55] <froud> it deserves discussion
[02:55] <froud> our svn is fine
[02:55] <froud> baz
[02:55] <froud> hmmm
[02:55] <froud> now
[02:55] <froud> you're
[02:56] <froud> talking
[02:56] <froud> but I suggest we wait for bazaar-ng
[02:56] <jsgotangco> that would take a while
[02:56] <jsgotangco> i'd rrather wait for HCT
[02:56] <froud> six months
[02:56] <mpt> froud: Wait for bazaar-ng? Whatever for?
[02:56] <froud> ui is par with svn
[02:57] <jsgotangco> we can't avoid baz
[02:57] <froud> bazaar becomes bzr
[02:57] <froud> baz > bzr
[02:57] <froud> there is an upgrade path
[02:58] <froud> but you will have a mind bend on understanding distributed development
[02:58] <froud> branches and merges are not part of the team reportior 
[02:58] <froud> at present
[02:58] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:58] <froud> however
[02:58] <froud> it is possible to do baz
[02:59] <froud> without changing our work flow
[02:59] <jsgotangco> id like to learn packaging our docs as well
[02:59] <froud> one thing at a time
[02:59] <jsgotangco> froud yes i know
[02:59] <froud> if you want baz we can do it
[02:59] <froud> I would suggest we not use branches at first
[02:59] <froud> get ppl using the baz command
[03:00] <jsgotangco> you want to test it out for experiments?
[03:00] <froud> then later introduce branches
[03:00] <froud> I alrweady am
[03:00] <jsgotangco> where?
[03:00] <froud> baz is the way forward
[03:00] <froud> I have a branch of bazaar docs local
[03:01] <froud> and I am running 1.4.1
[03:01] <jsgotangco> no i mean mirrorr our existing trunk to a baz rep
[03:01] <jsgotangco> and we play around with baz
[03:01] <jsgotangco> and make a decision after brreezy
[03:01] <froud> no need really
[03:01] <froud> we currently have no need for baz
[03:01] <froud> baz is a long term must
[03:02] <jsgotangco> a long term should start somewhere
[03:02] <froud> so you would be better served by learning baz on an existing project
[03:02] <froud> like baz itself
[03:02] <jsgotangco> you can say that
[03:02] <froud> baz get http://bazaar.canonical.com/archives/thelove@canonical.com/bazaar-docs--devo--1.5 bazaar-docs
[03:03] <froud> then make your branch off that
[03:03] <froud> I suggest you upgrade to 1.4.1
[03:03] <jsgotangco> what does that thing contain?
[03:03] <froud> the baz docs
[03:03] <froud> in ReST format
[03:03] <jsgotangco> then just brach something else right
[03:04] <jsgotangco> oh BTW
[03:04] <jsgotangco> i almost forgot
[03:04] <froud> you cannot commit to that drop
[03:04] <jsgotangco> HAPPY FATHER'S DAY FROUD
[03:04] <jsgotangco> HEHEHE
[03:04] <froud> you must branch
[03:04] <froud> our irght
[03:04] <froud> btw I forgot
[03:04] <froud> happy farthers day jsgotangco 
[03:04] <jsgotangco> gahh
[03:05] <jsgotangco> farther?
[03:05] <froud> oh and you have bunch of new patches to kwick guide
[03:05] <froud> my fingers are numb
[03:05] <froud> kwick guide is now valid and well formed
[03:05] <jsgotangco> froud im not worrried about that doc anymore, the power of community is so evident on that book
[03:05] <froud> I have fixed the sematics too
[03:05] <froud> and added some text
[03:05] <jsgotangco> ahh
[03:06] <jsgotangco> i shoould check it out later it might be up for reviewing alrready
[03:06] <froud> you shoul dbe able to yelp it nwo
[03:06] <froud> I have marked parts complete
[03:06] <jsgotangco> ahh thanks
[03:07] <froud> np prblm great work though dude
[03:07] <froud> well done
[03:07] <jsgotangco> thanks
[03:07] <jsgotangco> these new guys are great help
[03:07] <froud> yep
[03:07] <froud> the mor eppl the easier it becomes
[03:07] <jsgotangco> i should make a wiki of doc progress
[03:08] <froud> jsgotangco: I am asking everyone to read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
[03:08] <froud> they need it in order to understand what I ahve done in svn
[03:08] <jsgotangco> you messed up stuff again?
[03:08] <froud> and to understand the debate raging on yelp 
[03:08] <froud> no
[03:08] <froud> its the same
[03:08] <jsgotangco> ahhh wait i see it now
[03:09] <jsgotangco> its the yelp thing
[03:09] <jsgotangco> right
[03:09] <froud> but I see ppl dont understand
[03:09] <froud> why I want to write in docbook using all features
[03:09] <froud> and transform to html for packaging
[03:10] <jsgotangco> yes we've discussed about that
[03:10] <jsgotangco> as well as saving some more space from the cd
[03:10] <froud> yes but there is a new view
[03:10] <JonA> froud: Post-transforming to HTML, what would be used to view it?
[03:10] <froud> the view is that I have forced my opinion
[03:10] <JonA> Am I right in understanding that Yelp can't render HTML?
[03:10] <froud> JonA: it simply means we pack html
[03:10] <jsgotangco> JonA: yelp can still do it
[03:11] <froud> no
[03:11] <JonA> Okay.
[03:11] <froud> yelp reads html
[03:11] <jsgotangco> JonA: but Yelp is doing so much at the same time, hence the speed
[03:11] <froud> jsgotangco: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
[03:11] <JonA> froud: Does Yelp support CSS?
[03:11] <froud> yes
[03:11] <froud> jsgotangco: [15:03]  <froud> the view is that I have forced my opinion
[03:11] <jsgotangco> froud: i have this book
[03:11] <JonA> Okay.
[03:12] <froud> jsgotangco: the view is that I am working outside the parameters
[03:12] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[03:12] <froud> jsgotangco: as I explained to mdke I made them
[03:13] <froud> not long ago I was the only person at docteam
[03:13] <jsgotangco> froud, you were a good mentor
[03:13] <froud> hence I made the parameters
[03:13] <froud> thanks
[03:13] <froud> so, mdke asked me
[03:13] <froud> am I back with the team?
[03:14] <froud> I said just visiting
[03:14] <froud> why?
[03:14] <mdke> because you're weird :p
[03:14] <froud> I strongly believe that I am freaky
[03:14] <froud> thank
[03:14] <froud> no
[03:14] <froud> really
[03:14] <froud> I am convinced that the technical vision I have build is a good route
[03:15] <mdke> you talk about "we", you test baz, you commit to our repository
[03:15] <mdke> so YES you are back with the team
[03:15] <froud> and does not exclude any options
[03:15] <froud> mdke: ubuntu is a small part of my work in the foss world
[03:16] <froud> I am not going to see the project and my work scrapped that easily
[03:16] <mdke> its disconcerting to hear you say that you are just visiting, but yet you are doing lots of work
[03:16] <froud> I test baz, because I am writing a book on baz
[03:16] <jsgotangco> guys guys
[03:16] <jsgotangco> let's clear this up
[03:16] <froud> grrrrrr, woooooof, WOOF
[03:16] <jsgotangco> froud
[03:16] <froud> grrrrrr
[03:16] <jsgotangco> hey
[03:17] <froud> scratch scratch
[03:17] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[03:17] <froud> howl
[03:17] <froud> WOOOOF
[03:17] <jsgotangco> let me guess
[03:17] <froud> go on guess
[03:18] <jsgotangco> ok let me check the logs
[03:18] <froud> why?
[03:18] <froud> nothing there
[03:18] <froud> yu dont know
[03:19] <froud> teasing
[03:19] <jsgotangco> forums meeting?
[03:19] <froud> ouch dont go there
[03:19] <mdke> there was a forum + CC meeting yesterday
[03:20] <froud> that was rough
[03:20] <mdke> i read the logs
[03:20] <mdke> it wasn't that bad
[03:20] <jsgotangco> in a nutshell?
[03:20] <froud> he he
[03:20] <froud> how many priv msg went on 
[03:20] <jsgotangco> (not more than 10 words)
[03:20] <mdke> you don't need to worry
[03:21] <froud> yes there is love between docteam and forums
[03:21] <froud> all ittook was to share a joint
[03:22] <froud> and get the karma moving in the positive direction
[03:22] <froud> who wants a fight?
[03:22] <jsgotangco> i like it that way rright now, its a weekend i have all the time
[03:23] <froud> cummon mdke 
[03:23] <jsgotangco> my wife can wait
[03:23] <mdke> froud, you need an arguments room
[03:23] <froud> oooh that is dangerous
[03:23] <jsgotangco> go to #war
[03:23] <mdke> like in monty python
[03:23] <froud> duke nukem
[03:23] <mdke> "you're not arguing with me"
[03:23] <mdke> "yes I am"
[03:23] <froud> that's how we nee dto settole thing
[03:24] <froud> mdke: just caus eyour a lawyer now, dont get smart
[03:24] <froud> ;-)
[03:24] <mdke> *grins*
[03:24] <mdke> i was born like that
[03:24] <mdke> ask my mother
[03:24] <froud> poor brother
[03:25] <froud> England vs, France in Durban today
[03:25] <froud> Rugby
[03:25] <mdke> rugby league?
[03:25] <froud> let the boks chase some roosters around the feild
[03:25] <froud> the real rugga yes
[03:26] <froud> so jsgotangco what do you say
[03:27] <jsgotangco> i say we become yelp compliant for gnome
[03:27] <froud> grrrrr
[03:27] <froud> wooof
[03:27] <froud> and what about kde
[03:27] <mdke> jsgotangco, i never said that
[03:27] <mdke> i was just saying that changes need to be taken to the TB
[03:28] <froud> no they dont
[03:28] <jsgotangco> "they dont"
[03:28] <froud> no
[03:28] <mdke> i'm no gonna start again
[03:28] <froud> you just di
[03:28] <mdke> no/not
[03:28] <froud> s/di/did
[03:28] <mdke> i was clarifying my argument for jsgotangco 
[03:28] <mdke> not starting again
[03:28] <froud> excuses
[03:29] <froud> mdke: go read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
[03:30] <froud> when you have read it, lets debate again
[03:30] <mdke> i have better things to do
[03:30] <froud> like
[03:30] <jsgotangco> ok
[03:30] <jsgotangco> i will say my piece
[03:30] <mdke> our debate is based entirely on Ubuntu community governance, not on technical matters
[03:30] <froud> what governance
[03:30] <jsgotangco> hold on
[03:30] <froud> we are the governance
[03:31] <jsgotangco> hey hey
[03:31] <mdke> froud, WRONG
[03:31] <mdke> we are not the governance
[03:31] <froud> greee
[03:31] <froud> speak for yourself
[03:31] <mdke> [14:30:47]  froud we are the governance
[03:31] <mdke> man you don't know what you sound like
[03:31] <mdke> I AM THE LAW!
[03:31] <jsgotangco> jeeezz
[03:31] <froud> mdke: if we agree then there is no need for it
[03:32] <jsgotangco> JUDGE DREAD
[03:32] <froud> you only invoke TB when we dont
[03:32] <jsgotangco> great i just lost it
[03:32] <froud> so far I have not seen you disagree
[03:32] <froud> just calling for aTB
[03:33] <mdke> correct
[03:33] <froud> why
[03:33] <mdke> because your changes involve changes to the distribution
[03:33] <froud> there is no disagree in the team?
[03:33] <mdke> these decisions are not yours to make
[03:33] <froud> no they dont
[03:33] <jsgotangco> HEY HEY HEY
[03:33] <mdke> anyway
[03:33] <mdke> i gotta go out for a while
[03:33] <froud> whether we pack xml or html is a semantic
[03:34] <froud> pack html and we can do what we like, not what yelp only wants
[03:34] <froud> jsgotangco: I am listening
[03:34] <jsgotangco> like i said, we will be yelp compliant
[03:34] <froud> heh e
[03:35] <jsgotangco> but ok how do i start this
[03:35] <jsgotangco> hrmm
[03:35] <froud> give a good reason why html is notyelp compliant
[03:36] <jsgotangco> grr
[03:36] <jsgotangco> ok hmm
[03:36] <jsgotangco> ok now i know what to say
[03:36] <jsgotangco> ok
[03:37] <jsgotangco> froud: you've attended the meeting and did fix up some stuff in our svn, now that we had the meeting and everything, what you say about your status in this "team"
[03:38] <froud> I need to know if we are going ahead with the parameters and work method I have set months ago
[03:39] <froud> if I am forced to work in a way that I think is inferior they I am not here
[03:39] <froud> I am visiting now
[03:39] <jsgotangco> what would these parameters be for the sake of the logs
[03:39] <froud> and I am doing cause I dont want a huge load to fix
[03:40] <froud> simple we use all docbook publishing features
[03:40] <froud> we ship html
[03:40] <froud> end
[03:40] <jsgotangco> why do you think html is the best way to ship
[03:41] <froud> freedom, power of control, desktop independance, greater functionality in our source and processing options
[03:42] <froud> the list is long
[03:42] <jsgotangco> ok
[03:42] <froud> ask what is the benefit of shipping xml
[03:42] <jsgotangco> i was about to
[03:42] <jsgotangco> go on
[03:42] <froud> answer there is none
[03:43] <jsgotangco> why is that?
[03:43] <froud> its the same amount of data
[03:43] <froud> there are limitations to shipping xml
[03:43] <froud> 1. xml src must be yelp readable
[03:44] <froud> 2. yelp does not support all docbook
[03:44] <froud> 3. yelp must transform inline to html to view (slow)
[03:44] <froud> 4. only yelp reads gnome compliant xml
[03:45] <froud> 5. xref between docs is proprietry to yelp
[03:45] <froud> cant work anywhere else
[03:45] <jsgotangco> ok
[03:45] <jsgotangco> fair enough
[03:45] <jsgotangco> its pretty obvious on point 3
[03:45] <jsgotangco> and 2
[03:45] <froud> jsgotangco: ask what is xml for?
[03:46] <froud> why do we have xml at all
[03:46] <jsgotangco> go on
[03:46] <froud> xml is a presentation neutral format for storage of documents and data
[03:46] <froud> period
[03:46] <jsgotangco> correct
[03:46] <froud> it was not intended as a presentation layer
[03:47] <froud> over to you
[03:47] <jsgotangco> hmm
[03:48] <jsgotangco> what would be the limitations if we ship in html
[03:48] <froud> none
[03:48] <jsgotangco> oh come on
[03:48] <froud> there are none
[03:48] <froud> really
[03:48] <froud> its that simple
[03:48] <froud> only good stuff
[03:49] <froud> jsgotangco: I am not a person to use technology for techno sake
[03:49] <froud> like the baz thing
[03:49] <jsgotangco> i understand this thing enough since ive worked a lot with Rosettanet
[03:49] <froud> truth, we dont need it now
[03:49] <froud> truth baz is must for long term
[03:49] <jsgotangco> hence the reason for stuff like docbookxsl and stuff
[03:50] <froud> we still ship xml to rosetta
[03:50] <froud> jsgotangco: I am losing you
[03:51] <jsgotangco> froud: i undestand the reasons why we don't need to ship xml
[03:51] <froud> k
[03:51] <jsgotangco> RosettaNet is a differrent xml thing not totally rreleated to Canonical's Rosetta
[03:51] <jsgotangco> (its a languange for semicon/electrornics fims)
[03:51] <froud> OH
[03:52] <froud> k
[03:52] <jsgotangco> We do stuff in HTML too from a RosettaNet XML
[03:52] <froud> why?
[03:52] <jsgotangco> (freaking source needs to be transferred between machines)
[03:53] <froud>  hehe exactly
[03:53] <froud> xml is for exchange
[03:53] <froud> not presentation
[03:53] <jsgotangco> anyway that's beside the point
[03:53] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:53] <jsgotangco> ok
[03:53] <froud> very much the point
[03:53] <jsgotangco> anyway
[03:53] <froud> anyway
[03:53] <froud> jsgotangco: who is the docteam
[03:53] <froud> I mean who are the members
[03:54] <froud> active ones
[03:55] <froud> you, me, mdke, jeff-away, jjesse, and two new people
[03:55] <froud> 6 ppl
[03:55] <froud> right
[03:55] <jsgotangco> right
[03:56] <froud> ok now do any of those six disagree with me on shipping html?
[03:56] <froud> I have not had any disagreement
[03:56] <froud> but ppl what a TB
[03:57] <froud> waste of time and IMHO not required
[03:57] <froud> jsgotangco: we are first and formost our own tb
[03:57] <jsgotangco> wait wait
[03:57] <jsgotangco> we're talking about the technical merits of the documentation
[03:58] <jsgotangco> format, repo, etc.
[03:58] <froud> what do they matter so long as we can ship docs
[03:59] <froud> jsgotangco: how we work technically is our problem
[03:59] <froud> provided that we can package at the end
[03:59] <froud> there is no problem
[04:00] <jsgotangco> dude
[04:00] <froud> to have a TB deciding whether we can or cant ship HTML is so trivial a point that it is not worth it
[04:00] <froud> jsgotangco: I am listening
[04:00] <jsgotangco> i believe the TB doesn't have to decide on that, we are a completely volunteer driven project
[04:01] <froud> +1
[04:01] <froud> its not about the part line or toeing it
[04:01] <froud> its about what we want
[04:02] <froud> our collective makes it work
[04:02] <froud> and what matter is those who are committing to our src
[04:02] <froud> then our product must matter to users
[04:02] <froud> not the format
[04:02] <froud> users dont read the xml
[04:03] <froud> hell most dont even know th edifference
[04:03] <froud> users read text and pictures
[04:03] <jsgotangco> give me a minute to think
[04:03] <froud> so if asked to decide between technology and publishing features
[04:03] <jsgotangco> just go on
[04:04] <froud> which would you choose
[04:04] <froud> btw anyone is welcome to join this discussion
[04:04] <froud> which would you choose?
[04:05] <froud> Hmm, silence
[04:06] <froud> am I so wrong for choosing publishing features
[04:06] <froud> If ppl disagree pls let me know
[04:07] <jsgotangco> sorry
[04:07] <froud> what for?
[04:07] <jsgotangco> i was out fo a while
[04:07] <jsgotangco> anyway
[04:07] <froud> which would you choose?
[04:07] <jsgotangco> i don't see the problem on the technical side, you have all the facts of the case
[04:08] <jsgotangco> i think i see the problem is how you present it to the people telling the shots on the whole project
[04:08] <froud> ok now this is the problem
[04:08] <froud> it is indicative of what ppl are doing
[04:08] <froud> they dont have all the info
[04:08] <froud> but want to dismiss what I am saying
[04:09] <froud> I have yet to see a credible argument against the case I have set forth
[04:09] <froud> if light of that I see no need for a TB
[04:10] <jsgotangco> they're the ones packaging to begin with
[04:10] <froud> ok, listening
[04:10] <froud> what are they
[04:10] <jsgotangco> did you get to talk to jdub alrerady?
[04:11] <froud> jsgotangco: no
[04:12] <froud> jsgotangco: pls install diveintopython
[04:12] <froud> then look at the docs
[04:12] <froud> you will see html
[04:12] <froud> not xml
[04:12] <froud> so what is the problem with packaging
[04:13] <jsgotangco> that's intsalled by default
[04:13] <froud> Oh yes
[04:13] <froud> well take a look
[04:13] <jsgotangco> yes i rread that :)
[04:13] <jsgotangco> it loads a hell lot faster
[04:13] <froud> ok so what is the packaging problem to start with
[04:14] <froud> jsgotangco: there is none
[04:14] <jsgotangco> like i said
[04:14] <jsgotangco> this is more about communication ratherr than technicalities
[04:14] <froud> now do you really still think we need a TB to decide what file format we ship?
[04:15] <jsgotangco> i'd ather say we need the TB to tell what we decide to ship given that "we" is every active member in this team and not just you
[04:16] <froud> jsgotangco: I suspect this is a religious question not a technical one
[04:16] <froud> we dont need a TB
[04:16] <froud> dude about ubuntu was shippe din hoary as HTML
[04:16] <jsgotangco> opened in FF
[04:17] <froud> I ask with tears in my eyes, why the hell do we need a TB to tell us what we ship
[04:17] <jsgotangco> who packages our stuff
[04:18] <froud> jsgotangco: we do
[04:18] <jsgotangco> who specifically
[04:18] <froud> see /debian
[04:18] <froud> enrico: or me
[04:18] <froud> but anyone can do it
[04:18] <jsgotangco> you upload to main?
[04:18] <froud> enrico: is whitelisted
[04:18] <jsgotangco> ok so its enrico
[04:19] <froud> he just uploads
[04:19] <froud> cause he has the rights
[04:19] <jsgotangco> ok
[04:19] <froud> jsgotangco: question
[04:19] <jsgotangco> shoot
[04:19] <froud> jsgotangco: do you agree that I have been more than forthcomming about empowering ppl here at ubuntu-doc
[04:20] <jsgotangco> i feel that people look up to you because of your technical knowledge on the subject matter, thus have trust on you
[04:21] <froud> have I, or not, imparted expertise and supported ppl as they learn
[04:21] <jsgotangco> froud, you've been a good mentor to me
[04:21] <froud> and others
[04:21] <froud> why do I do this
[04:21] <jsgotangco> i cannot say
[04:21] <froud> why do I bother
[04:21] <froud> answer
[04:22] <froud> because I want ppl to have the knowledge to do things
[04:22] <froud> because I do not want to be the sole person knowing how it works
[04:23] <jsgotangco> yes you've told me that on email
[04:23] <froud> hence you may have noticed that I said I want to take more of a back seat
[04:23] <froud> because I want this team to take ownership
[04:23] <froud> its not about me in th eleast
[04:23] <jsgotangco> one question though
[04:23] <jsgotangco> are you willing to lead it
[04:23] <froud> yes
[04:24] <froud> and I take flack for it
[04:24] <jsgotangco> do you envision this team to become an official project
[04:24] <froud> my actions are focus on two things
[04:24] <froud> it only attianed that status last meeting
[04:25] <froud> focus :
[04:25] <froud> 1.
[04:25] <froud> get people skilled to write the docs
[04:25] <froud> 2.
[04:25] <froud> get the docs written
[04:25] <froud> that is my entire focus
[04:25] <froud> simple
[04:25] <froud> hence I spend time helping and fixing stuff as people work
[04:26] <froud> answering technical questions
[04:26] <froud> always transfering knowledge
[04:26] <froud> at present I am not the leader of this team
[04:26] <froud> nobody is
[04:26] <froud> I have said and say again
[04:26] <jsgotangco> perhaps that is the weakest link?
[04:26] <froud> everyone here is empowered to do
[04:26] <froud> perhaps
[04:27] <froud> but at the same time
[04:27] <froud> I do lead without being the official leader
[04:27] <jsgotangco> ok one thing more
[04:27] <froud> and as that is my position I must take strong decision sometimes
[04:27] <froud> yes
[04:28] <jsgotangco> hmm nevermind
[04:28] <froud> jsgotangco: if I dont make technical decisions, who will
[04:29] <jsgotangco> ok so you think the existing team won't make it without you
[04:29] <froud> no
[04:29] <froud> but it will struggle
[04:29] <froud> that is why
[04:29] <froud> I am imparting knowledge at a very high rate
[04:29] <froud> because I do not want a single point of failure
[04:30] <jsgotangco> dude
[04:30] <jsgotangco> you said before
[04:30] <froud> but until such time as we have commiters who are here day in and out
[04:30] <jsgotangco> people come and go
[04:30] <froud> I will hold this together
[04:30] <froud> the only way to prevent problems is to build a stong community in numbers
[04:31] <froud> that community must have the knowlegde or they have no power
[04:31] <froud> they will flounder
[04:31] <froud> and things will go wrong
[04:31] <froud> it may be years before the realize it
[04:31] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[04:31] <froud> that is why my first aim is to impart knowledge
[04:32] <froud> I want ppl who understand it like I do
[04:32] <froud> so there is less potential for problem
[04:32] <froud> so that ppl can decide based on intellect not on the whim of a religious direction
[04:32] <froud> jsgotangco: you ask, have I spoken to jdub
[04:33] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:33] <froud> I said no
[04:33] <froud> but is it really important
[04:33] <froud> is jdub a big factor in this team today
[04:33] <froud> is he working in svn
[04:33] <froud> has he edited or written any of our work
[04:34] <froud> can you really say that he has enough information to make a decision for us as a team?
[04:35] <froud> I dont think so
[04:35] <froud> jdub has his merits
[04:35] <froud> writing and building a docteam is not one of them
[04:36] <froud> so am I back?
[04:36] <jsgotangco> point taken
[04:36] <jsgotangco> wait abit
[04:36] <jsgotangco> i have one question that may offend you, hope not
[04:36] <froud> go ahead
[04:36] <jsgotangco> you don't need to answer it
[04:37] <jsgotangco> do you have business interests in this team as an official project given that its majority of work is what you do for a living
[04:38] <froud> jsgotangco: I am here of my own accord. I am not employed by canonical, I am employed by myself. FOSS is a big part of my business. Do I make money from my work here? yes, most definatley
[04:38] <froud> but it does not come from canonical
[04:39] <jsgotangco> what do you mean "here"
[04:39] <froud> here at ubuntu-doc
[04:39] <jsgotangco> i don't get it
[04:39] <froud> jsgotangco: do I have an investment in ubuntu
[04:39] <froud> yes
[04:39] <jsgotangco> ok
[04:40] <froud> I have invested hors of my time
[04:40] <froud> I have a master plan
[04:40] <froud> just the way sabdfl does
[04:40] <froud> but that is my private issue
[04:40] <jsgotangco> froud we all have our own "sinister" plans :)
[04:40] <froud> while I am here I work for the good of the project
[04:41] <froud> I make my decisions based on that good
[04:41] <froud> when I first came here
[04:41] <froud> ppl did not understand me
[04:41] <froud> I found an svn server sitting on john hornbecks home pc
[04:41] <jsgotangco> hold on
[04:41] <jsgotangco> hold on
[04:42] <jsgotangco> im trying to digest the last statement
[04:42] <jsgotangco> "Do I make money from my work here (ubuntu-doc)"
[04:42] <froud> I started building and I am still building, at first I was just building framework
[04:42] <jsgotangco> "Yes"
[04:42] <froud> yes
[04:42] <froud> I do
[04:42] <froud> truth
[04:43] <froud> but not from canonical
[04:43] <jsgotangco> "I have an investment in Ubuntu"
[04:43] <froud> yes
[04:43] <froud> I have a business plan
[04:43] <jsgotangco> support?
[04:43] <froud> my investment in time now will pay back later
[04:43] <froud> dont ask me to answer that question
[04:43] <jsgotangco> ok
[04:44] <froud> that is my priv stuff
[04:44] <jsgotangco> "but not from canonical"
[04:44] <froud> jsgotangco: if canonical want to pay me I will not say no
[04:44] <froud> but I doubt that will happen
[04:44] <jsgotangco> "but not from canonical" -> i really don't get this, but im not going to ask
[04:45] <froud> [16:35]  <froud> I started building and I am still building, at first I was just building framework
[04:45] <jsgotangco> ok
[04:45] <froud> now I am bulding ppl like you
[04:45] <jsgotangco> go on with hornbeck
[04:45] <froud> and mdke
[04:45] <jsgotangco> (he's writing a book with APress BTW)
[04:45] <froud> since somming here we have a canonical hosted svn server
[04:46] <froud> I have built a two frameworks
[04:46] <froud> and assisted many to get working
[04:46] <froud> may aim is still to continue building
[04:47] <froud> along the way I may seem hard headed
[04:47] <jsgotangco> what is this framework
[04:47] <jsgotangco> how did we get in
[04:47] <froud> but look closer and you will see that it is not without reason
[04:47] <froud> the file system you see today was hours of work
[04:48] <froud> the ents and the processing system all takes time
[04:48] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:48] <froud> I still need to finish the system for breezy
[04:48] <froud> so I am not the leader
[04:49] <froud> but I am until such time as I see ppl can make technically sound decisions
[04:49] <froud> I know this sounds arrogant
[04:49] <froud> but its not
[04:49] <froud> I am just trying to ensure that things stay on the rails
[04:49] <froud> jsgotangco: what's your vision for this team
[04:50] <froud> I dont think anyone here has one
[04:50] <froud> my vision
[04:50] <jsgotangco> i'm still thinking about it, now that im doing admin work for this team
[04:51] <jsgotangco> froud, but it will rely a bit on your knowledge
[04:51] <froud> a great technically competant group capable of building and maintianing docs in a large environment for multiple distros based on ubuntu
[04:52] <froud> I want to see electronic help yes.
[04:52] <froud> but more than that I want to see books, a box and cds packaged
[04:52] <froud> I want to see a packaged product distributed from shipit
[04:52] <froud> that is my goals
[04:53] <froud> ultimate goal
[04:53] <froud> I say too much
[04:53] <jsgotangco> go on this is good
[04:53] <froud> sabdfl and I have one thing in common
[04:54] <froud> we are not thinking small
[04:54] <froud> that is a hint
[04:54] <froud> now I must go as I promised my family we would eat out
[04:54] <jsgotangco> ok
[04:54] <jsgotangco> i appreciate this
[04:54] <froud> hope this chat for the record gives ppl some insight into myself
[04:55] <froud> insight I have not shared until now
[04:55] <froud> perhaps you can now understand why I say that I am visiting
[04:56] <jsgotangco> its your decision
[04:56] <froud> when I see the team join ranks and focus, then I am back :-)
[04:56] <froud> because then I know that external stuff will not stop them
[04:56] <froud> and they believe in themselves
[04:57] <froud>  c ya
[04:57] <jsgotangco> ok cya
[05:20] <mdke> [15:54:45]  froud hope this chat for the record gives ppl some insight into myself
[05:20] <mdke> jeez
[05:21] <jsgotangco> :)
 I started building and I am still building, at first I was just building framework
[05:21] <mdke> froud now I am bulding ppl like you
[05:22] <mdke> count me out for the "being built by froud" game
[05:37] <jsgotangco> arrggghhh
[06:28] <jsgotangco> mdke, me too!!!
[06:36] <froud> mdke: jsgotangco so you dont want help on doing things
[06:37] <froud> you know its amazes me just how when jsgotangco arrived he knew nothing about svn or docbook and now he has written a book. Hmm, perhaps if I had jsut sat there and done nothing to help, we would have had the same outcome
[06:38] <jsgotangco> that chat just made me feel used ok, i am quite upset at the moment, but i have the weekend to think about
[06:38] <froud> well I am pissed too
[06:38] <froud> because the team has not even trusted in what I have done
[06:39] <jsgotangco> i actually trust what was done
[06:39] <froud> instead at every stage I have heard TB but nobody has come with facts
[06:39] <froud> perhaps jsgotangco I should not give supporyt
[06:39] <jsgotangco> froud, that is for you to decide
[06:39] <froud> perhaps I should not help people with the things they are doing or answer questions
[06:40] <froud> when things get tough, I at least looked for support form the team
[06:40] <froud> instead I got the opposite
[06:40] <froud> dude that pissed me off bad
[06:40] <froud> ever since that thread with jdub
[06:41] <froud> practically nobody rallied to help me
[06:41] <froud> or argued against me
[06:41] <froud> two ppl had any support for me
[06:41] <froud> jjesse and enrico
[06:42] <froud> now perhaps I should not build newcommers to the project
[06:42] <froud> perhaps I should just leave them to their own devices
[06:43] <froud> say what you like about me I have given in big way
[06:43] <jsgotangco> froud, you misjudge too soon in a 2 word statement
[06:43] <froud> [17:14]  <mdke> count me out for the "being built by froud" game
[06:44] <froud> [18:21]  <jsgotangco> mdke, me too!!!
[06:44] <froud> thanks alot
[06:46] <froud> I see that speaking to the team and explaining myside has not helped anything. Sorry I exposed my inner side
[06:46] <mdke> froud, give me a minute
[06:46] <mdke> first, let me say that I am grateful and happy about the support you provided for me and others
[06:46] <mdke> second, let me explain what I meant
[06:47] <mdke> your comment about building people implied that you were moulding the team members according to your plan for how things should happen. this was patronising and made myself and jerome both feel used
[06:47] <mdke> I believe that you are very technically gifted and an asset to the team
[06:47] <mdke> however, you must learn to work as a team
[06:47] <mdke> IMHO
[06:48] <mdke> <-- said his piece
[06:48] <jsgotangco> this "grand plan" without me knowing really pissed me
[06:48] <jsgotangco> (although its a nice plan)
[06:48] <froud> mdke: I am insterested in building people like jsgotangco and yourself
[06:48] <mdke> well forget it
[06:48] <mdke> we are not lego
[06:48] <froud> people who want to saty and build it together
[06:49] <froud> people who care to work on the docs
[06:49] <jsgotangco> we intend to stay and I intend to fix this
[06:49] <froud> many who come here do not know what to do with svn or docbook
[06:49] <jsgotangco> but i am not limiting myself to Ubuntu docs and would prefer to work with others as well
[06:49] <froud> I see myself imparting knowlegde and so building expertise
[06:50] <froud> but I dont want to waste that energy on just anyone
[06:50] <froud> jsgotangco: but the stength of the team is internal first, then it can work with external
[06:51] <froud> jsgotangco: I have seen it time and again
[06:51] <jsgotangco> like i said, you are very good at mentoring
[06:51] <froud> each time the team tries going external, all falls apart
[06:51] <JonA> froud: From an outsiders perspective, how do you decide who is worthy of your knowledge or not?
[06:51] <froud> those who I see are trying
[06:51] <froud> JonA: those who I see doing patches
[06:52] <mdke> i love the idea that we must earn froud's knowledge
[06:52] <froud> even thjough they are muddling their way thru
[06:52] <froud> mdke: dude that is not how its meant and you know it
[06:52] <froud> mdke: sarcasm is not for you
[06:54] <mdke> froud, i know that, but look at JonA's reaction
[06:54] <froud> he had a good question
[06:54] <froud> nothing read into it
[06:54] <mdke> ok
[06:54] <froud> just the question
[06:54] <mdke> perhaps i misunderstood then
[06:54] <froud> OK let me ask JonA 
[06:54] <jsgotangco> i thought the same way as mdke
[06:55] <jsgotangco> (on that question)
[06:55] <froud> JonA hows is your knowledge of svn and docbook
[06:56] <froud> is it good
[06:56] <froud> OK, lets try another oute
[06:56] <froud> JonA what books will you be working on
[06:57] <JonA> I know quite a bit about SVN (I've set up a few repositories at work and things), and my docbook is okay - I get the whole concept, I've written lots of markup-language documents before.
[06:57] <froud> cool so you will not need help
[06:57] <froud> which books are you working on or will you be working on
[06:58] <JonA> froud: I'll be working on whatever is needed. As I mailed to the list, I've done quite a bit of technical journalism, which usually involves explaining concepts to people, and I think those skills can apply to documentation in general.
[06:58] <froud> cool so how about the gnome user guide
[06:58] <froud> is that something you can sink your teeth into
[06:59] <JonA> I'm quite happy to work on that - it would be useful to be told which areas need work, or special attention.
[06:59] <froud> JonA: I am assuming you have already done an svn checkout
[06:59] <froud> well gnome user guide needs love
[06:59] <JonA> froud: No, I haven't.
[06:59] <JonA> froud: I was waiting for some direction first :-)
[06:59] <froud> Hmm
[07:00] <froud> Ok would you like me to help you now
[07:00] <mdke> JonA, I am writing up the minutes from the meeting now, hopefully we will assign documents as we agreed then, with individuals taking responsibility for each doc
[07:00] <JonA> froud: Thanks for the offer, but I'm about to go off and see my girlfriend :-)
[07:00] <froud> mdke: JonA wants to work on anything
[07:01] <froud> OK well when you have the time I will be happy to help you
[07:01] <mdke> sure he seemed prepared to take responsibility for a gnome doc
[07:01] <JonA> mdke: If you'll be posting the minutes and tasks to the mailing lists, I'll respond there.
[07:01] <mdke> he can basically have first pick ;)
[07:01] <mdke> JonA, yes
[07:01] <mdke> that's the best idea
[07:01] <froud> mdke: its things like this that I have been doing allot
[07:01] <JonA> I'd also quite like to have a go at the 'About Ubuntu' document which is the firefox default home page. I think it needs some work.
[07:01] <mdke> cool
[07:02] <froud> building the team and building ppl
[07:02] <mdke> froud, now we can do it as a team
[07:02] <froud> it always was as a team
[07:02] <froud> but if I did not help you and jsgotangco and many others
[07:02] <mdke> JonA, I am not sure whether the document you see in firefox is the same as the one that appears when you do "about ubuntu" from the menu
[07:02] <mdke> but the one in svn is the one that you get from the menu
[07:03] <JonA> mdke: It isn't here (Hoary).
[07:03] <jsgotangco> froud, i'm grateful for that so is mdke, but it won't work if you won't let us do some stuff that might work as well :)
[07:03] <JonA> Is the one I saw on Mako's webspace the one that is under consideration for the 'About Ubuntu' menu?
[07:03] <froud> jsgotangco: I have been
[07:03] <jsgotangco> froud, if we fail, we learn
[07:04] <froud> jsgotangco: I have been transfering skills since the beginning
[07:04] <jsgotangco> froud, or else, we'll be nothing more than froud clones, IMO
[07:04] <mdke> JonA, you don't have it in your gnome system menu?
[07:04] <froud> jsgotangco: it is goo dto fail yes
[07:04] <froud> equally good if you have help
[07:04] <mdke> transferring skills = good, transferring views = bad
[07:04] <JonA> The one I have under System opens up in Yelp.
[07:04] <mdke> JonA, that is right
[07:04] <froud> jsgotangco: now that is up to you
[07:05] <froud> jsgotangco: you are your own personality
[07:05] <froud> and I have never tried to impose on it
[07:05] <mdke> but the team isnt
[07:05] <mdke> it needs one
[07:05] <froud> jsgotangco: when you started kwick guide
[07:05] <JonA> mdke: Ah, right. I'd really like to fix the Firefox default page, though. It's far too dense.
[07:05] <froud> did I interfer
[07:05] <froud> did I get in your way
[07:05] <froud> or did I support
[07:05] <mpt> The idea that a Web browser's home page should be a manifesto is broken anyway
[07:06] <jsgotangco> froud: i patterned on what you did
[07:06] <froud> jsgotangco: your choice
[07:06] <mpt> It should be http://news.google.com/
[07:06] <JonA> mpt: True. The firefox start pages you get with vanilla Firefox are much better, they're more about branding and they're easy to read.
[07:07] <mdke> JonA, in theory the firefox default page should also be generated from that document, if it hasn't been, that is an oversight in packaging
[07:07] <mdke> mpt, i took that up on -devel once
[07:07] <JonA> mdke: Understood
[07:07] <froud> jsgotangco: I let you go, you did well, and I fixed stuff when I had time
[07:07] <mpt> or http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Randompage
[07:07] <mpt> or something interesting :-)
[07:07] <mdke> mpt, they didn't like the idea
[07:07] <froud> jsgotangco: stuff like incorrect ,markup
[07:07] <mdke> mpt, they want the browser to open up to an offline document
[07:07] <JonA> Okay, I have to go now. Speak later.
[07:07] <mdke> JonA, thanks :)
[07:07] <mpt> mdke: Yeah, I remember ... But, you know, it's a *Web* browser
[07:07] <mdke> mpt, i couldn't agree more
[07:11] <mpt> hmmm, what's the URL of that page?
[07:11] <mpt>  /usr/something
[07:11] <mpt> it had "artwork" somewhere in it too, for added amusement
[07:12] <mdke> yeah it ships with ubuntu-artwork i think
[07:12] <mdke> maybe that is an issue to chase up with -devel
[07:12] <mpt> whoa
[07:13] <jsgotangco> NOOOOO :)
[07:14] <mpt> gah
[07:14] <jsgotangco> i hope you leaving wasn't about the artwork
[07:14] <mpt> no, it was about clicking the wrong button in the panel
[07:14] <mpt> Those Ubuntu logos aren't real
[07:14] <mpt> the dots are too small
[07:15] <jsgotangco> mpt, you can tell the ubuntu people behind the official artworrk then, to share whatever is needed to make good/official looking ones
[07:16] <mpt> I thought there were SVGs on the wiki
[07:17] <mpt> hmmm, maybe I'm confusing the Ubuntu wiki with the Canonical wiki
[07:17] <jsgotangco> i once asked for artwork from the CD
[07:19] <mdke> shit
[07:19] <jsgotangco> happens?
[07:19] <mdke> firefox has crashed and i've lost the damn meeting minutes
[07:19] <jsgotangco> i love you mdke
[07:20] <mdke> well that's not gonna bring em back
[07:20] <mpt> Hmm, I don't see the SVG anywhere
[07:24] <mpt> bing bing bing bing bing
[07:24] <mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork
[07:24] <jsgotangco> i think that's just logos
[07:25] <mpt> which is what we were looking for, right?
 mpt, you can tell the ubuntu people behind the official artworrk then, to share whatever is needed to make good/official looking ones
[07:25] <mpt> Oh, but they're all missing because of the wiki transfer
[07:25] <mpt> muahaha
[07:25] <mdke> yeah
[07:26] <mpt> When is that being fixed?
[07:26] <mdke> soon
[07:26] <mdke> right now the missing images are at the following address, but there are no svgs
[07:26] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/htdocs/lostimages/
[07:27] <mpt> Well, they're all PNGs
[07:27] <mpt> Maybe Henrik just pulled *.png out of the backup?
[07:28] <mpt> and needs to do *.jpg, *.jpeg, *.svg, *.gpl, and *.aco as well
[07:30] <mpt> durn file extensions
[07:30] <mdke> i'll mention it
[07:30] <mdke> but i'm not sure
[07:38] <jeffsch> howdy folks
[07:38] <jsgotangco> hey jef
[07:38] <jsgotangco> no no no don't go there
[07:38] <mpt> heh
[07:38] <jsgotangco> we're sorting it out now
[07:40] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, we're just talking about sinister plans right now
[07:42] <jeffsch> mmmmm.... s i n i s t e r
[07:42] <mdke> yeah those logs are phat
[07:44] <jeffsch> cool man, them logs are hot! :-)
[07:47] <jsgotangco> oh man i think we can also name ourrselves the Legion of Doom
[07:47] <jeffsch> say, has anyone hinted at taking the lead on user guide?
[07:48] <mpt> Not just sinister, but also grand
[07:48] <mpt> Does wiki.ubuntu.com do categories?
[07:48] <mdke> yes
[07:49] <mdke> jeffsch, are you interested in it?
[07:49] <mdke> mpt, you'll see the categories under the edit box when editing a page
[07:50] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnCategories
[07:50] <jeffsch> mdke: maybe. my biggest limit is time... I barely have enough now for the style guide
[07:51] <mpt> hmmm, you can have only one category per page
[07:51] <jeffsch> i was thinking of replacing the "spec here" on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserGuide
[07:51] <mdke> mpt, i'm not sure
[07:52] <mdke> jeffsch, if you want to take lead on it I'm sure you are very welcome
[07:52] <mdke> i have been doing a little work on it, but I don't think that I will be able to take lead
[07:52] <mdke> mpt, maybe you can have more than one per page
[07:53] <mdke> mpt, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast
[07:53] <mpt> ugh, the text boxes, they're all brown
[07:54] <mdke> mpt, anyhow, it works
[07:55] <mdke> mpt, create the page CategoryWhatever and put in [[FullSearch()] ] 
[07:55] <mpt> maybe there should be a CategoryDevelopment?
[07:57] <jeffsch> i just created CategoryDocteam on StyleGuide wiki page
[07:57] <jeffsch> now there is a CategoryDocteam wiki page that needs creating...
[07:58] <mpt> heh, we really need subcategories
[07:58] <mpt> CategoryDevelopment = {CategoryDocTeam, CategoryUdu, CategoryPackaging...}
[08:00] <mdke> well you can play around with it ;)
[08:00] <mdke> create the categories, then slowly the pages will be categorised
[08:01] <mpt> Subcategories would require category support in the wiki software itself
[08:01] <mpt> The wikis as they are have nothing to do with Moin, they're just link-detection
[08:01] <mpt> The categories as they are, I mean
[08:02] <mdke> yes i have no idea is subcategories are possible
[08:03] <mdke> is/if
[08:03] <jeffsch> don't categories work the same way as parenting did in zwiki?
[08:04] <mdke> not quite
[08:04] <mdke> its basically a search mechanism i think
[08:04] <mdke> you go to CategoryBlah, it will tell you all the pages which contain the word "CategoryBlah", via a search implemented by [[FullSearch()] ] 
[08:05] <jeffsch> ok, look at CategoryDocteam... i have added user guide to it.
[08:06] <mdke> thats it
[08:06] <jeffsch> nothing stops anyone from adding CategoryWhatever to user guide also
[08:06] <mdke> we should have a CategoryDocumentation too
[08:06] <mdke> for the guides and stuff from UserDocumentation/talk
[08:06] <mdke> all in good time...
[08:07] <jsgotangco> this channel is so much betterr when we were having a fight
[08:07] <jsgotangco> :)
[08:07] <jeffsch> ok then, lets add CategoryDocumentation, and then add user guide to it
[08:07] <mdke> userguide is more Docteam I think
[08:07] <jeffsch> but it
[08:08] <jeffsch> oops
[08:08] <jeffsch> but it is also part of documentation, no?
[08:08] <mdke> it will be when it is release with breezy
[08:08] <mdke> here's how i see it, docteam = stuff internal to our process, documentation = howtos on the wiki
[08:09] <jeffsch> and where does user guide fit? it is internal, but only sort-of internal
[08:09] <mdke> well it is one of our projects
[08:09] <mdke> its not documentation until it is released imo
[08:10] <mdke> then hopefully it will be on the static part of the website
[08:10] <jeffsch> a DocteamWorkInProgress category then?
[08:10] <mdke> hmm
[08:10] <mdke> i dunno mate
[08:10] <mdke> to be honest I don't think it matters hugely
[08:11] <mdke> i'd tend to limit the docteam category to just one
[08:11] <mdke> if there are loads of categories they will be a bitch to maintain ;)
[08:11] <jeffsch> true
[08:12] <mdke> Be BaCk LaTeR
[08:12] <jeffsch> [11:07]  <jsgotangco> this channel is so much betterr when we were having a fight
[08:13] <jeffsch> sorry to bore you! 
[08:13] <jsgotangco> :)
[08:13] <jsgotangco> its 2AM
[08:13] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:20] <jsgotangco> wow i didnt notice mdke has access to the channel now
[08:45] <mdke> back
[08:45] <mdke> are you doing an all-nighter?
[08:45] <mdke> jsgotangco ^
[08:45] <jsgotangco> no froud and i are still doing the sinister grand plan
[08:46] <mdke> i c
[09:01] <mdke> *laughs*
[09:01] <mdke> instructions?
[09:01] <mdke> is -devel up for it?
[09:01] <mdke> mpt, they could have wiki.ubuntu.com/udu if they wanted
[09:02] <mpt> Oh, that would be too easy :-P
[09:03] <mpt> And there would be no point
[09:03] <mdke> no?
[09:04] <mpt> The point is that (a) many of the documents on the UDU wiki are going to remain relevant at, and after, the next conference
[09:04] <mdke> there is already /forum and /doc
[09:04] <mdke> anyhow
[09:04] <mpt> and (b) some of the documents on the UDU wiki have out-of-date siblings with the same name on wiki.ubuntu.com.
[09:04] <mdke> hmm
[09:04] <mdke> the idea of merging is a decent one
[09:05] <mdke> it would just be a "cp" afaik ;)
[09:05] <mdke> maybe silbs/henrik have got it in mind already
[09:05] <mpt> no, quite a bit more complicated
[09:05] <mpt> Well, I was replying to Henrik
[09:06] <mdke> ah i c
[09:06] <mdke> cool
[09:06] <mpt> because for (b) I suspect quite a few of the wiki.ubuntu.com pages have been edited since UDU by people who didn't realize the UDU equivalent exists, OR the UDU pages were developed by people who didn't realize the wiki.ubuntu.com equivalent existed.
[09:06] <mpt> AND/OR, even.
[09:07] <mdke> yes possibly
[09:08] <mpt> and because there are people like JaneW who are *only* interested in UDU pages
[09:09] <mdke> *grins*
[09:09] <mdke> isn't that a decent argument for having /udu?
[09:10] <mpt> No, it's a decent argument for having CategoryUdu :-)
[09:10] <mdke> well it certainly is
[09:11] <mdke> the lists still haven't woken up?
[09:11] <mpt> what lists? woken up how?
[09:12] <jsgotangco> wake up its barely 7am on yourside
[09:12] <robitaille> lists are still dead...and elmo has been idle for 10+ hours.  It's so quiet today in Ubnutu-land
[09:12] <jsgotangco> its just 3am here
[09:13] <robitaille> maybe I should visit ubuntuforums to get my fix of questions from users
[09:13] <mdke> *laughs*
[09:13] <mdke> or #ubuntu
[09:14] <mdke> or you can try crack
[09:15] <robitaille> #ubuntu is probably more addictive...
[09:17] <jsgotangco> mdke what is with this forum thing
[09:17] <jsgotangco> i barely go there
[09:17] <jsgotangco> mpt: how
[09:17] <mpt> Not telling :-P
[09:17] <jsgotangco> ok you could have just kept it yourself intead of us thinking of another conspiracy theory
[09:17] <jsgotangco> on books
[09:17] <mdke> jsgotangco, we had a bit of an argument with the forum the other day, it escalated needlessly. Hopefully it is sorted now. I exchanged some messages with the forum guy about it, seems that the problem is dealt with.
[09:18] <mpt> Yes, if a publisher wants to find someone to write an Ubuntu book, it *must* be a conspiracy
[09:18] <jsgotangco> what issue?
[09:18] <mpt> It's a physical law of the Ubuntu universe
[09:18] <mdke> jsgotangco, it was not doc related, don't worry, you should go to sleep
[09:18] <jsgotangco> i still have my CSI kit here
[09:19] <mdke> *laughs*
[09:19] <jsgotangco> im still tryring to rread between the lines
[09:19] <jsgotangco> on the chat transcrripts here
[09:19] <mdke> Kinnison, how about dr who eh? awesome or what?
[09:21] <jsgotangco> ok the tea has already dried up in my blood stream
[09:22] <mdke> no...
[09:22] <mdke> more...
[09:22] <mdke> tea...
[09:24] <jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
[09:25] <jsgotangco> later
[09:26] <mdke> nite
[09:26] <jsgotangco> i had an interesting night heh
[09:26] <mdke> yeah
[09:26] <mdke> now go to your wife
[09:26] <mdke> poor woman
[09:26] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: sleep already! :-)
[09:27] <jsgotangco> bah
[09:28] <jeffsch> mdke: did you really lose the minutes after a ff crash?
[09:28] <mdke> yeah
[09:28] <mdke> but i've finished em again now
[09:28] <mdke> they are not long tbh
[09:28] <jeffsch> i'm curious... how does a browser lose a doc?
[09:29] <mdke> i was writing it on wiki
[09:29] <mdke> opened mplayer plugin in another tab
[09:29] <mdke> CRASH
[09:29] <jeffsch> ahhhh. tough break
[09:30] <mdke> np
[09:30] <mdke> it wasn't a lot
[09:32] <mdke> actually I think they are done now
[09:32] <mdke> it is quite a skeletal summary
[09:32] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary5
[09:33] <mdke> feel free to do any corrections
[09:36] <jeffsch> i liked the "project owner" idea
[09:38] <mdke> everyone did afaics
[09:38] <mdke> Burgundavia is our "ideas man" :)
[09:39] <jeffsch> yeah. He's also good at finding stuff for us to look at
[09:40] <mdke> you betcha
[09:40] <mdke> ok i've posted the summary to ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-devel, it will be there WHEN THE SERVERS ARE UP!!!!
[09:40] <mdke> *cough*
[09:41] <jeffsch> mdke: OT. what episode of dr who are you at in the UK?
[09:41] <mdke> last one just finished
[09:41] <jeffsch> the last one shown here, you guys almost lost Cardiff
[09:41] <mdke> ah
[09:41] <mdke> the best one ever is next
[09:41] <mdke> penultimate
[09:41] <jeffsch> daliks!!!
[09:42] <mdke> its a two parter
[09:42] <mdke> so the last episode concludes it
[09:42] <jeffsch> i have to wait until tuesday for part one
[09:42] <mdke> hmm
[09:43] <mdke> or you could download it ;)
[09:43] <mdke> not that I would condone that sort of thing
[09:43] <mdke> but waiting for them is quite good, it builds anticipation ;)
[09:44] <mdke> ok i'm going for a walk
[09:44] <mdke> too much time has been spent indoors today
[09:45] <jeffsch> me gotta go to. fridge is empty. :(
[09:45] <jeffsch> cya
[09:45] <mdke> bye:)