[12:01] <mjg59> (I have a hand-hacked xorg.conf, so dexconf wouldn't have rewritten it automatically)
[12:01] <mjg59> Though my cursor seems to have gone back to the old-style one
[12:02] <mjg59> Uh. It just started x-session-manager
[12:04] <schweeb> mjg59: you're the lead on laptop stuff, right?
[12:04] <jdub> do a dpkg-reconfigure
[12:04] <mjg59> schweeb: Yeah
[12:04] <mjg59> jdub: On what?
[12:04] <jdub> or switch to the right fonts dirs
[12:04] <jdub> xserver-xorg
[12:04] <mjg59> jdub: I just added the symlink
[12:04] <mjg59> It breaks upgrades at the moment
[12:04] <schweeb> mjg59: heard of anyone with an IBM X41 yet?  just got one like 2 days ago, about to start testing breezy on it
[12:05] <infinity> schweeb : Is that the convertible tablet
[12:05] <infinity> ?
[12:05] <schweeb> no, just the laptop
[12:05] <mjg59> schweeb: Not yet, but as far as I know it's just an X40 with i915
[12:05] <schweeb> k
[12:05] <mjg59> infinity: There's a tablet version, but not all of them are tablets
[12:05] <mjg59> ogra: About?
[12:05] <schweeb> tablet was finally released like the day after I ordered this one
[12:06] <schweeb> my sound doesn't work yet, but I'm assuming that's the same IRQ problem I had with my Dell
[12:06] <ogra> mjg59, yep
[12:06] <mjg59> Uh. On Breezy?
[12:06] <mjg59> There should be no IRQ issues
[12:06] <schweeb> no, hoary at the moment
[12:06] <mjg59> Is snd_intel8x0 getting loaded?
[12:06] <schweeb> yep
[12:06] <mjg59> ogra: We need to tidy up the power preferences
[12:06] <mjg59> schweeb: 2.6.10?
[12:07] <schweeb> yep, latest ubuntu kernel pkg
[12:07] <ogra> mjg59, lets wait til next week,  havent seen the new preferences window yet
[12:07] <mjg59> ogra: Ok, no problem
[12:07] <mjg59> ogra: Oh, can you get it added to the default session?
[12:07] <mjg59> (Check if it's installed, and if so run it)
[12:07] <schweeb> mjg59: on the Dell, the parport and intel8x0 were trying to unsuccessfully use the same IRQ... I always had to blacklist the parport
[12:07] <mjg59> schweeb: That shouldn't have happened post warty
[12:08] <ogra> i think it should work like update-manager, say the user has to run it once...
[12:08] <mjg59> Hmph
[12:08] <schweeb> hrm
[12:08] <mjg59> ogra: Hmm. I'm inclined to think it should always be running (much like the networkmanager back end)
[12:08] <mjg59> Otherwise people won't get low battery notifications by default
[12:09] <schweeb> /proc/interrupts doesn't show that the parport or the snd driver even have an interrupt...
[12:09] <mjg59> schweeb: Check dmesg for signs that the sound driver actually bound to the device at all
[12:09] <mjg59> schweeb: The other possibility is that we're missing PCI IDs
[12:10] <schweeb> yea, this does have some odd hardware for a laptop
[12:10] <schweeb> SATA, PCI Express
[12:10] <ogra> mjg59, i'll try to get the backend started by default...
[12:10] <schweeb> haven't tried bluetooth yet either
[12:10] <mjg59> ogra: Cool
[12:10] <mjg59> schweeb: Oh, it's SATA? Right, you're not going to get suspend/resume
[12:10] <schweeb> but my wifi works great, that's all that matters at this exact moment :p
[12:10] <ogra> mjg59, but network manager's backend is a system service
[12:10] <schweeb> mjg59: oh, boo
[12:11] <mjg59> ogra: Yeah, but that doesn't matter to the user :)
[12:11] <ogra> mjg59, nope, but for the implementation ;)
[12:11] <mjg59> thom: networkmanager hasn't crashed on me yet!
[12:11] <schweeb> mjg59: that makes me weep, wish I would have known that one (hell, I didn't know it was SATA until I installed ubuntu)
[12:12] <jdub> sata lappy? nice! (mostly)
[12:12] <schweeb> so, that's a SATA wide issue?
[12:13] <HWolf> jdub, sata isn't useful, really. :P
[12:13] <HWolf> Only thing its good for is reducing cable clutter. 
[12:13] <jdub> i don't care about useful
[12:13] <jdub> i care about SPEED
[12:13] <schweeb> HWolf: especially considering this has a 1.8" 4200 RPM drive :(
[12:14] <schweeb> but it's so damn light
[12:14] <jdub> and his server with no lid on it.
[12:14] <schweeb> lol
[12:14] <jdub> both of which his laptop outperforms. :|
[12:14] <HWolf> ide wouldn't limit even a decent desktop drive, let alone a laptop drive
[12:15] <schweeb> mjg59: I could get you lspci output if you'd like, just so you guys can get PCI IDs
[12:15] <HWolf> it'll show no increase in speed whatsoever, even in a synthetic benchmark.
[12:15] <schweeb> I already submitted to hwdb
[12:15] <infinity> The specs claimes ATA133, but the specs often lie.
[12:15] <infinity> Guess we'll see when it gets here.
[12:15] <HWolf> But now I'm off, before I get kicked out for being OT, or I drop my sleepy head on my keyboard. :)
[12:16] <mjg59> schweeb: Yeah, that'd be good
[12:16] <schweeb> any specific options? -v, or anything further than that?
[12:16] <mjg59> schweeb: SATA support for suspend/resume ought to appear in Breezy soon
[12:16] <mjg59> lspci -n
[12:17] <schweeb> email or pm?
[12:17] <jdub> anyone here have sip love?
[12:18] <jdub> i'm bored of calling echo tests and random red hat pstn numbers
[12:18] <schweeb> jdub: whiprush would probably be more than happy to be a test subject
[12:18] <ogra> jdub, call anthony
[12:19] <jdub> ogra: it's 8am on sunday morning
[12:19] <jdub> ogra: i don't believe he's seen one of those since he got up to watch church on tv in his younger days
[12:19] <ogra> hehe, great, the right time.... he will love you :)
[12:19] <schweeb> jdub: go to sleep then!
[12:19] <jdub> i just got up!
[12:19] <schweeb> why
[12:20] <jdub> i'm now on EXTREME .au time
[12:20] <jdub> which means early to bed, early to rise
[12:20] <schweeb> you have like 6 more hours of sleep ahead ofy ou
[12:22] <schweeb> mjg59: what's your email, or should I email them to ubuntu-devel list
[12:24] <mjg59> schweeb: mjg59@srcf.ucam.org
[12:26] <schweeb> sent
[12:38] <thom> mjg59: heh, cool
[12:40] <Burgundavia> thom, have you heard any reports of network manager writing "nameserver 127.0.0.1" to a /etc/resolv.conf ?
[12:40] <thom> Burgundavia: uh, that's what it's supposed to do?
[12:40] <thom> so, yes, i've heard that it does that :P
[12:40] <Burgundavia> thom, it also broke networking on my machine, when rebooted into recovery mode
[12:42] <thom> how?
[12:42] <Burgundavia> the machine cannot contact the outsite world
[12:42] <Burgundavia> through DNS that it
[12:42] <Burgundavia> s/it/is
[12:42] <jdub> thom: no name resolution...
[12:42] <jdub> no bind
[12:43] <thom> ok, so that's _not_ breaking networking
[12:43] <thom> please don't confuse the two
[12:43] <Burgundavia> seems that something else is looking for /etc/resolv.conf to be a simlink
[12:43] <thom> jdub: nod, working on it
[12:43] <Burgundavia> symlink even
[12:43] <thom> Burgundavia: resolvconf, yes
[12:43] <ogra> thom, for me dhcp doesnt work
[12:43] <jdub> thom: so will /e/n/interfaces basically become irrelevant?
[12:44] <thom> jdub: well, no
[12:44] <thom> jdub: NM reads it and uses it in the case of static config
[12:44] <jdub> ahr
[12:44] <thom> long term we'll do more integration
[12:45] <thom> ogra: doesn't work is a big and unhelpful phrase. does it work normally? is this on your wifi card? does the rest of the networking stuff get set up correctly?
[12:45] <ogra> its a orinoco silver pcmcia card, if i ifdown/up the interface, it works normally...
[12:45] <jdub> thom: have you looked at the zeroconf package?
[12:46] <thom> what i need to do is figure out how to make resolvconf and NM play in such a way as to not break in the case where NM isn't running
[12:46] <thom> jdub: NM does zeroconf
[12:46] <thom> or it should
[12:46] <jdub> oh, ok
[12:46] <thom> ogra: is this the one that hal doesn't know is a wifi card?
[12:46] <ogra> yeps
[12:46] <thom> you're doomed then; kernel bug
[12:46] <ogra> argh
[12:47] <mjg59> Well, lack of kernel functionality
[12:47] <thom> (it needs to export the correct info in sysfs)
[12:47] <thom> mjg59: well, old driver, yeah
[12:47] <mjg59> thom: The main problem is that pcmcia cards don't seem to play nicely with the sysfs stuff
[12:47] <mjg59> cardbus is fine
[12:47] <jdub> thom: what do you get out of using resolvconf?
[12:47] <thom> oh, just old school pcmcia
[12:48] <thom> jdub: i'm hoping that i can get it to the point of being able to get NM to use resolvconf to generate a resolv.conf, so if NM isn't running you still get a reasonable resolv.conf
[12:49] <Goshawk> hi
[12:49] <jdub> thom: the server case, basically?
[12:50] <Burgundavia> and the recovery mode
[12:50] <Burgundavia> that is where nm bit me
[12:50] <jdub> Burgundavia: that's avoidable in other ways (ie. don't even try)
[12:51] <thom> jdub: server case isn't really interesting, you won't ever have NM installed 
[12:51] <jdub> thom: have you drawn little workflow diagrams of this?
[12:51] <thom> jdub: but being able to play nice with the system is definitely a feature
[12:51] <thom> jdub: no
[12:51] <thom> not yet, anyway
[12:51] <jdub> my brain is scrawling little workflows on the inside of my skull
[12:52] <Goshawk> this may be a gnome bug: afther you have created a parent folder and many child folders, with files inside, and folders without any file, and click the right mouse button on the parent folder and choose "Create Archive" in format tar.gz, the archive is created but all the empty folders are missed... should it be a bug? should i report it to reportbug?
[12:52] <jdub> Goshawk: bugzilla.gnome.org is probably a better place (and yeah, sounds like a good bug to me)
[12:53] <Goshawk> jdub, thanks :D
[12:53] <thom> my ears are ringing too loud from U2 for my brain to work right now ;-)
[12:53] <jdub> thom: so in the n-m exists case, what happens when you invoke ifup or ifdown?
[12:53] <thom> jdub: at the moment, shitfight central
[12:53] <jdub> awesome
[12:54] <jdub> do you want to make it so they send appropriate d-bus messages to n-m, and ignore everything else?
[12:55] <jdub> hmm
[12:55] <thom> jdub: i'm unsure as yet. Thomas Hood is interested in working on this too, need to talk to him at somepoint again
[12:55] <tseng> thom: man i love the moment after n-m realizes it doesnt have total control over a network device
[12:55] <jdub> jtdhood?
[12:55] <thom> jdub: yeah
[12:55] <jdub> cool
[12:56] <thom> tseng: heh
[12:56] <jdub> man, this is hard stuff
[12:56] <thom> tseng: i thought "shitfight" covered it quite accurately :-)
[12:56] <tseng> yes
[12:56] <tseng> i wonder if i put nm-applet in my session if ill get properly associated at login
[12:56] <tseng> (brb)
[12:56] <eazel7> hi ppl
[12:57] <jdub> thom: what if n-m became a type of /e/n/i configurations?
[12:57] <jdub> so you had managed interfaces and unmanaged interfaces
[12:58] <thom> jdub: hrrrrm
[12:58] <jdub> then ifup on a managed interface would tell n-m to do its thing (via dbus, i imagine)
[12:58] <jdub> ifup on an unmanaged interface would just do the right thing
[12:58] <jdub> as per configuration
[12:58] <jdub> and n-m would *never* try to manipulate an unmanaged interface
[12:58] <jdub> like, it would completely ignore them
[12:58] <jdub> hrm
[12:58] <jdub> though you'd want n-m to own anything that wasn't specified
[12:59] <thom> yeah
[12:59] <tseng> jdub: would if* work properly in the absense of nm?
[12:59] <thom> i wonder if you could use a hotplug mapping script to do that
[12:59] <jdub> tseng: you mean, would a managed interface work in the absence of nm?
[12:59] <tseng> jdub: sure
[12:59] <jdub> hmm
[01:00] <thom> there's no reason for it not to, is there?
[01:00] <jdub> thom: what would it do?
[01:00] <jdub> it's like
[01:00] <tseng> if you told people they need dbus and nm on a server, then you would find out what shitfit central is
[01:00] <jdub> ifup eth3 when you don't have an eth3 definition in interfaces
[01:00] <thom> tseng: yes
[01:00] <jdub> tseng: well, in that case, you just have all unmanaged interfaces as per normal
[01:00] <tseng> hm right
[01:00] <jdub> what i'm thinking of is this (which thom groks, i think):
[01:00] <tseng> i see how you mean
[01:01] <jdub> iface eth1 inet managed
[01:01] <jdub> ^ in /etc/network/interfaces
[01:01] <tseng> oh
[01:01] <thom> jdub: not really; the interface is defined, all you're really doing is notifying NM that you want it to be available; there's no reason that you couldn't also have fallback config i think
[01:01] <jdub> heh, you could even set mandatory (unchangeable) settings in the stanza :)
[01:01] <thom> that too
[01:02] <jdub> thom: so if i did ifup eth1 when nm wasn't running, what do you see happening? (when the only configuration is that one line)
[01:02] <thom> jdub: more like: "iface eth1 inet dhcp \n mode managed"; don't forget that NM can use static configs because it can do the ifplugd case of bringing an iface up when the it gets a connection
[01:03] <jdub> but then you've got a mandatory setting of dhcp, right? :)
[01:04] <jdub> hrm
[01:04] <thom> yes, and that's fine
[01:04] <jdub> what if you have a managed interface without a dhcp or static mandatory setting?
[01:04] <thom> in the scheme i just proposed, you can't
[01:05] <jdub> however, in the scheme i proposed, you couldn't have a mandatory setting for that at all
[01:05] <jdub> unless you had another stanza item
[01:05] <thom> i can't see how you'd usefully use that, unless it just zeroconfs the iface
[01:05] <thom> NM still has to know how it should bring the iface up
[01:06] <jdub> it works that out itself, doesn't it?
[01:06] <thom> no? it defaults to dhcp but parses /e/n/i for any clues 
[01:06] <jdub> that static/dhcp bit is 'how to do it' and nm is a 'how to do it'
[01:07] <thom> no; think of /e/n/i as a policy statement, NM just implements that policy
[01:07] <jdub> so static configurations are not stored by NM?
[01:07] <thom> not afaik
[01:07] <thom> could be wrong though
[01:08] <jdub> aha, so
[01:08] <jdub> then you could use the same thing
[01:08] <jdub> iface eth1 inet managed
[01:08] <jdub> and all of the fields are optional
[01:08] <jdub> *if* you set address, it doesn't dhcp
[01:09] <jdub> if you set any of the others, they're overrides or something
[01:09] <jdub> does NM interpret maps in interfaces?
[01:09] <thom> hrm, see what you mean
[01:10] <mjg59> jdub: Unless you manually override in the interface at some point
[01:10] <jdub> mjg59: hrm?
[01:11] <mjg59> jdub: I ought to be able to override anything in /e/n/i through the UI at runtime
[01:11] <jdub> mjg59: yeah, though we were just talking about mandatory settings too
[01:11] <jdub> mjg59: perhaps there should just be another field 'mandatory yes' or something to do that
[01:12] <mjg59> Yes, it needs some amount of lock-down support
[01:12] <jdub> but you're right, that should be optional
[01:13] <jdub> does NM start really early?
[01:13] <tseng> it starts with dbus
[01:13] <jdub> oh yeah
[01:14] <thom> 20 in rc2
[01:14] <thom> not, actually, early enough
[01:14] <jdub> mmm
[01:14] <thom> i think we should get dbus up ASAP
[01:14] <thom> like, in the initrd or so... ;-)
[01:15] <jdub> pondering if ifup eth1 would invoke NM if it wasn't running, or just talk to it (and NM would kick all the managed interfaces off when it starts)
[01:15] <jdub> haha
[01:17] <jdub> thom: in en_GB, 'tomboy' should be 'thomboy' ;-)
[01:18] <thom> piss off :-)
[01:18] <thom> jdub: it's not like it's a usual spelling here, either
[01:19] <tseng> jdub: beat him senseless until he replaces the shithouse icons
[01:19] <tseng> jdub: i mentioned i replaced it and he started cursing
[01:21] <jbailey> thom: Eh?
[01:21] <thom> jbailey: initrd is a highlight these days too?
[01:22] <jbailey> thom: If you're serious, please look at the initramfs hooks.  There won't be glibc in there, so I'll need to be able to compile it with klibc or uclibc.
[01:22] <jbailey> thom: Yeah. =) 
[01:22] <thom> jbailey: no, i'm not serious. but it does need to be early
[01:22] <thom> (i'm not sure it'd build with klibc, anyway)
[01:22] <jbailey> thom: Oh good. =)  I was growing this deep fear that perhaps usplash might need it for something.
[01:23] <thom> heh
[01:23] <thom> usplash is not me, but it might well
[01:23] <jdub> tseng: seriously? i thought they changed upstream too?
[01:23] <tseng> jdub: no way
[01:23] <thom> we could have udbus ;-)
[01:23] <sladen> the stuff I did to date is just statically built and striped.  comes to < 30kB
[01:24] <tseng> jdub: its still the dumbass comic guy from 1940
[01:24] <mjg59> sladen: So, when are we getting more of it?
[01:24] <jdub> don't call tin tin a dumbass
[01:24] <jbailey> sladen: Sounds lovely.  Did you get a chance to look at the intiramfs hooks?
[01:24] <jdub> you'll offend seb
[01:24] <tseng> ha ha
[01:24] <thom> jdub: we should send orph a profile shot of seb
[01:24] <tseng> YES
[01:24] <jbailey> sladen: 0.11 is quite well baked for raid1, hd boot and nfsroot.
[01:24] <thom> it'd be *so* cool
[01:24] <sladen> mjg59: ah, yes.  urm.
[01:24] <jdub> thom: a seb hackergotchi, which i don't have...
[01:24] <tseng> that should be april fools next year
[01:24] <tseng> tomboy -> seb
[01:25] <thom> the ubuntu hackergotchi icon set?
[01:25] <jbailey> sladen: You should be able to install initramfs-tools, add one line to your kernel-img.conf: "ramdisk = /usr/sbin/mkinitramfs" and reinstall your kernel and have it Just Work(tm)
[01:25] <thom> that'd be terrifying!
[01:25] <tseng> thom: yes!
[01:25] <sladen> replace tseng with a Tub of Lard
[01:25] <jbailey> Phear the April 1 Ubuntugotchi set.
[01:25] <tseng> (are you calling me fat?)
[01:26] <jdub> jbailey: now?
[01:26] <jdub> The following extra packages will be installed:
[01:26] <jdub>   busybox-cvs-initramfs klibc-utils libklibc
[01:26] <jdub> ouch ;)
[01:26] <jbailey> jdub: No, April 1 was a little while ago.
[01:26] <sladen> tseng: it's the clasic thing that Have I Got News FFor You do when one of their guests does a no-show
[01:26] <jdub> jbailey: initramfs, silly :)
[01:26] <jbailey> Oh, I see. =)
[01:26] <jdub> Need to get 518kB of archives.
[01:26] <jdub> After unpacking 1372kB of additional disk space will be used.
[01:26] <tseng> sladen: ah.
[01:26] <jdub> boh ;)
[01:27] <jbailey> Yes.  mdz is using it already and I'm booting one of my systems on it all the time.
[01:27] <jbailey> jdub: Doesn't do lvm or evms.
[01:27] <jbailey> Tested on i386 and ppc64
[01:27] <jdub> nice
[01:27] <jbailey> Don't mind the 9mb initrd, that will get smaller. =)
[01:28] <jbailey> Right now you have a pile of static binaries, glibc, klibc and about 30 megs of drivers packed into there. =)
[01:28] <jdub> ouch
[01:28] <jdub> is there a nice initramfs boot process doc around?
[01:28] <jbailey> I think that needs to be about 6 megs worth of drivers, and about half a meg worth of code.
[01:28] <jbailey> jdub: You're talking kernel side or my package?
[01:29] <jdub> both
[01:29] <sladen> 30MB initrd?!
[01:29] <jbailey> sladen: Nonono, 9mb, but that's compressed.
[01:29] <jbailey> Much need for shrinkage.
[01:29] <jbailey> My smallest test case was 250k
[01:29] <tseng> sladen: dude you need the whole kernel source tree in there for good luck
[01:29] <jbailey> And that could still be reduced further.
[01:29] <jbailey> jdub: No, for my package, but I can give you the door through it in about 2 minutes.
[01:30] <jbailey> I've been waiting for usplash to write docs, since I think that's the next thing that will probably cause the design to stretch a little.
[01:30] <sladen> jbailey: you should add support for sticking GCC + binutils in there so that you can compile the driver on the fly.  the Gentoo converts would *love* that
[01:31] <jbailey> jdub: http://lwn.net/Articles/14776/ is a reasonable place to start.
[01:31] <jbailey> sladen: If you have the backing store, honestly nothing stops it.
[01:31] <jbailey> sladen: And the assembly model that we're working towards would make it pretty trivial to do, sadly.
[01:32] <jbailey> sladen: It's worth noting that the initramfs includes *all* of the hardware autodetection.  You can take this initramfs and copy it to another machine and expect it to Just Work.
[01:32] <jdub> yeah, reading it already ;)
[01:32] <jdub> first google hit
[01:33] <jdub> i've read it before but i never remember why it rocks
[01:34] <jbailey> jdub: Less crap in kernel, basically.
[01:34] <jbailey> jdub: There's a bunch of things that otherwise have to stay resident, like dhcp code or raid detection code that can be jettisoned.
[01:34] <jdub> jbailey: so in future, you imagine that the basic initramfs image will be built into the kernel, so not requiring much at all to be built on kernel install?
[01:34] <jbailey> Having that in userspace also means that if there's a bug, it's not risking taking out the whole box.
[01:35] <jdub> ie. i won't have to install klibc or busy box on my machine? :)
[01:35] <jbailey> Hopefully, yes.
[01:35] <jdub> nice!
[01:35] <jbailey> klibc is intended to go into the kernel source tree.
[01:35] <jdub> so modules will be stacked on top and so on
[01:35] <jbailey> I wound up adding busybox when doing the raid1 stuff.
[01:36] <jbailey> Right, your bootloader will be able to take various cpio images and mash them together.
[01:36] <jbailey> So whatever pieces you need can be made available.
[01:36] <jbailey> If you're not network booting, there's no reason to include the network drivers.
[01:36] <jbailey> So I can imagine: scsi-2.6.12-1-powerpc64 ide-2.6.12-1-powerpc64 net-2.6.12-1-powerpc64 etc..
[01:36] <jbailey> Your bootloader would just put the interesting ones together.
[01:37] <jbailey> Plus a "base" initramfs of some sort that's all nice and pre-assembled.
[01:37] <jdub> and we can do dsdt stuff more sanely :)
[01:37] <jbailey> Hopefully.  I haven't finished the DSDT bits yet.
[01:38] <jbailey> I know with the initrd it's just mashed onto the end with a magic number.  I'm guessing it's the same in this case.
[01:38] <jbailey> So again, adding it becomes a matter of bootloader configuration, or having the helper program assemble them together at kernel install time.
[01:39] <jdub> reboot time ;)
[01:39] <jbailey> Rather than building based on what it thinks you might need.
[01:39] <jbailey> Enjoy, and good luck. =)
[01:39] <jdub> will be rad for thin client foo
[01:40] <jdub> haha
[01:41] <jdub> oooookay
[01:41] <jbailey> Is that a good laugh or a bad one?
[01:41] <jdub> fatal error inserting ipw2200, unknown symbol in module
[01:41] <sladen> jbailey: so what exactly does 'cpio --dereference' do if it doesn't do what it says on the tin?
[01:41] <jbailey> Oh that's ad.
[01:41] <jdub> no such file /conf/modules
[01:41] <jbailey> sad.
[01:41] <jdub> no such file /proc/mdstat
[01:41] <jdub> hda1 doesn't exist
[01:42] <jdub> dropping to shell
[01:42] <jbailey> Oh shit.  IDE case.
[01:42] <jdub> sh can't access tty; job control turned off
[01:42] <jbailey> You probably want to modprobe ide-generic.  I haven't tested on a pure IDE system yet.
[01:42] <jbailey> Forgot about ide-generic madness.
[01:42] <jdub> oh, what've you been using?
[01:42] <jbailey> SATA
[01:43] <sladen> jbailey: and could that hardcoded stuff be done in a more generic way with 'find'?
[01:43] <jdub> ok, ide-generic loaded
[01:43] <jbailey> sladen: Which hardcoded stuff?
[01:43] <jbailey> jdub: rerun udevstart to create the device files.
[01:43] <jbailey> sladen: I donj't have find available in the initramfs right now.  I'm trying to reduce the bits that I need so I can get rid of busybox.
[01:44] <jdub> jbailey: i ran udevstart, still no hda*
[01:44] <sladen> jbailey: all the 'lkn -s's in mkinitramfs
[01:45] <jbailey> jdub: modprobe ide-disk ?
[01:46] <jbailey> jdub: I'll cook up the ide bus walking stuff and put it in.  I keep forgetting that ide is a bit weird.
[01:46] <jdub> jbailey: ended up doing ide-core + ide-disk and it was fine
[01:46] <jbailey> sladen: No, those are likely to be more specific.
[01:46] <jbailey> sladen: I want to include an absolute minimum of stuff in there.  Right now I'm already pulling in crap like gzip.
[01:47] <jbailey> The reason I'm doing ln -s's is to avoid copying it, then making another copy with cpio.  ln -s is nice and quick.
[01:47] <jdub> jbailey: next step? :)
[01:48] <jbailey> modprobe ext3
[01:48] <jbailey> Or for amusement, you can type fstype < /dev/hdaN
[01:48] <jbailey> (replace N)
[01:49] <jbailey> And then modprobe whatever FSTYPE comes out as.
[01:49] <jdub> nice :)
[01:49] <jbailey> mount -r -t ${FSTYPE} ${ROOT} /root
[01:49] <jbailey> umount /sys
[01:50] <jbailey> umount /proc
[01:50] <jbailey> exec run-init /root /sbin/init
[01:50] <jbailey> ---
[01:50] <jbailey> And that should chain to your working system.
[01:50] <jbailey> jdub: If you feel brave enough to try again, add ide-disk and ide-generic to /etc/initramfs/modules
[01:50] <jbailey> Rebuild and try again.
[01:51] <jdub> blammo!
[01:51] <jdub> good blammo
[01:51] <jdub> :)
[01:51] <jdub> ok
[01:51] <jbailey> I think ide-core should get pulled in them as a sideeffect.
[01:52] <jdub> oh MAAAN
[01:52] <jdub> my keyboard isn't working again
[01:53] <D1> anyone run a laptop that has a smart battery and was able to get it to work in ubuntu?
[01:53] <jdub> jbailey: unrelated
[01:53] <jbailey> Oh good. =)
[01:53] <jbailey> If you have a USB keyboard, this initramfs detects that too.
[01:53] <jdub> nice
[01:53] <jbailey> So if you have to fallback to the shell, it's useful.
[01:54] <jdub> soon, you should make it detect when X IS BROKEN
[01:54] <jbailey> And do what...  emerge you a new X? =)
[01:54] <jdub> haha
[01:57] <sladen> D1: not yet, lack of driver support/specs.  pester mjg59 for more details
[01:58] <sladen> shnake in initramfs.  r.
[01:59] <jbailey> sladen: EPARSE
[02:03] <jdub> jbailey: boots fine after a rebuild :)
[02:04] <jdub> but my X still isn't working
[02:04] <jbailey> jdub: Sweet.  The next upload will handle the IDE case correctly.
[02:05] <jdub> noice :)
[02:05] <jdub> what's the timeline for making this the default?
[02:05] <jbailey> No later than 2.6.13 =)
[02:05] <jdub> ha ha
[02:05] <jbailey> That release will drop devfs support which the current initrd needs. =)
[02:06] <jdub> are we doing .13 for breezy?!
[02:06] <jdub> EEEK!
[02:06] <jdub> die devfs! die!
[02:06] <jbailey> Dunno if we're doing .13 for breezy or not.  
[02:07] <jbailey> .12 is finally out.  I don't know what's coming up next beyond the devfs bits.
[02:07] <jdub> how hard will it be to remove the devfs assumption/dependency?
[02:08] <jbailey> Depends on the approach taken.  We could put static device nodes in there, which seems wrong.
[02:08] <jbailey> We could put udev in, which is the work that I've aready done.
[02:09] <thom> ogra: http://www.livejournal.com/users/kernelslacker/19564.html
[02:09] <jbailey> Mostly I think the mkinitrd code is so bloody ugly, and we have far more elegant ways of doing things now.
[02:10] <jbailey> Literally the hardware detection code is:
[02:10] <jbailey>         for x in /sys/bus/pci/devices/*; do;                if [ -e ${x}/modalias ] ; then;                        modprobe -q $(cat ${x}/modalias);                fi;        done
[02:10] <jbailey> Repeat for usb.
[02:10] <jbailey> Add a few lines after this to cope with ide
[02:13] <jbailey> I could hardcode all of the lvm and evms stuff the way the current initrd does, but I'm hoping that we can just be more flexible than that.
[02:35] <jdub> jbailey: tasty!
[02:36] <jbailey> Anyone know anything about kmod?
[02:36] <jbailey> =)
[02:38] <LinuxJones> can someone pop into #ubuntu and kick the spammers please
[02:39] <LinuxJones> please !!!
[03:14] <jdub> whiprush: ping
[03:56] <whiprush> jdub: pong
[04:21] <tseng> jdub: dude do you still have that random laptop crasher on battery
[04:24] <tseng> jdub: im thinking laptop-mode, i turned it off for now
[04:24] <jdub> oh
[04:25] <jdub> um
[04:25] <jdub> i haven't seen that for a bit
[04:25] <jdub> but that's mostly because i haven't been using my laptop very much (directly)
[04:25] <tseng> you only get it on battery power?
[04:25] <tseng> or cant say
[04:25] <jdub> no only on battery
[04:26] <tseng> exactly, laptop-mode is all i can think of
[04:26] <tseng> since i ran badblocks
[04:26] <tseng> and got nothing
[05:46] <whiprush> jdub: you rang?
[06:10] <jdub> whiprush: yo
[06:11] <jdub> whiprush: what's your sip url?
[06:11] <whiprush> don't have it set up yet, I could never connect to anything.
[06:11] <jdub> oh
[06:12] <whiprush> jammcq uses sip though
[06:16] <fabbione> morning
[06:18] <bob2> *cough*fridge*cough*
[06:34] <mpt> The fridge has a cold? :-)
[08:18] <mdz> wow, network-manager produced a 3 gigabyte syslog file. impressive.
[08:19] <fabbione> mdz: ROTFL
[08:20] <mdz> Jun 18 03:10:17 localhost NetworkManager: <information>^IActivation (eth0) failure scheduled...
[08:20] <mdz> Jun 18 03:10:17 localhost NetworkManager: <information>^IActivation (eth0) Stage 3 (IP Configure Start) complete.
[08:20] <mdz> Jun 18 03:10:17 localhost NetworkManager: <information>^IActivation (eth0) failed.
[08:20] <mdz> that sort of thing, repeated a few hundred times per second
[08:21] <fabbione> neat :)
[09:22] <ompaul> possible bug in thunderbird, try to look at the full message headers and you can't (a) see them all  because (B) you can't scroll up and down in the window :)
[09:24] <robitaille> ompaul,  I have the same problem here.  And can't find it in the bugzilla.   You should fill a new bug report about this.
[09:25] <ompaul> robitaille, now having someone else confirm this I will
[09:25] <fabbione> ompaul: yes.. i have the same problem here
[09:26] <ompaul> it will be in bugzilla soon
[09:34] <ompaul> its done 
[09:35] <robitaille> ompaul,  url?
[09:37] <ompaul> robitaille,  https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/distros/ubuntu my name is Paul O'Malley last two  :-)
[09:44] <cartman> X.org no longer compiled with -fPIC on amd64?
[09:44] <cartman> I got lots of linking errors due to that now
[10:58] <hughsie> Anyone know if the gnome-power debs have been built?
[11:03] <pitti> Good morning
[11:03] <hughsie> Morning. 
[11:05] <hughsie> I got an email yesterday from someone in ubuntu telling me that debs were being built
[11:07] <daniels> jdub: pong
[11:07] <daniels> mdz: ... which changes?
[11:08] <daniels> Keybuk: sounds like your entire symlink farm is somehow complteely maggotted
[11:08] <daniels> Kamion: pong
[11:08] <daniels> mdz: will check out the xserver-xorg thing a little later
[11:10] <Keybuk> daniels: they're your packages
[11:11] <Keybuk> c'est ne pas un dpkg bug
[11:12] <daniels> Keybuk: iz gtk bug
[11:12] <daniels> Keybuk: the upgrade path is still a little rocky, because I haven't got to fully testing a hoary -> breezy upgrade yet
[11:17] <cartman> daniels: X.org on amd64 seems no longer compiled with -fPIC ?
[11:17] <cartman> I got relocation errors while linking to some X libs
[11:19] <daniels> cartman: ... which libs?
[11:20] <cartman> one sec
[11:20] <cartman> usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.a
[11:20] <cartman> for example
[11:20] <cartman> gcc tells me to recompile with -fPIC rolling back to -24 works fine
[11:22] <torkel> hughsie: gnome-power                 0.0.3+20050605cvs-0ubuntu1
[11:22] <hughsie> torkel: how often will the new cvs stuff come through?
[11:22] <daniels> cartman: oh, right -- that's a change from modular to monolithic
[11:23] <daniels> cartman: iirc you only need -fPIC when linking static to shared, though
[11:23] <daniels> and libXext has been available in shared form also for around a bajillion years
[11:23] <cartman> daniels: and KDE does that, don't ask me why or how
[11:23] <cartman> maybe I need to reconfigure hmmm
[11:23] <cartman> daniels: ok so I will retry cleanly & re-report
[11:23] <sabdfl> hey guys, is there any way to examine files that are hidden by a new mount?
[11:24] <cartman> daniels: also xkb seems to be broken again xorg rules file is missing
[11:24] <sabdfl> say i had files on a filesystem under /tmp/bar/
[11:24] <sabdfl> and i then mount another filesystem at /tmp/bar/
[11:24] <Keybuk> sabdfl: only if you know the inode number
[11:24] <Keybuk> otherwise unmount the other mount
[11:24] <sabdfl> Keybuk: how do i find the inode number?
[11:24] <sabdfl> unmounting could be tricky, it's /var we're talking  about :-)
[11:25] <Keybuk> unmount the other mount, and use stat or ls
[11:25] <Keybuk> heh
[11:25] <Keybuk> and I guess rebooting into single-user is out of the question?
[11:26] <sabdfl> not remotely, no :-)
[11:26] <sabdfl> i tried that and it screwed me nicely
[11:26] <Keybuk> if there anything particular you are looking for?
[11:26] <sabdfl> sudo init 1.... oops
[11:26] <sabdfl> ha! got it, lsof |grep var
[11:27] <sabdfl> killed everything that was reading/writing there
[11:27] <Keybuk> that'll give you the open files
[11:27] <sabdfl> maybe i can unmount now
[11:27] <sabdfl> nup
[11:27] <sabdfl> what else would keep the device busy?
[11:27] <daniels> cartman: xkb is, um, interesting at the moment
[11:27] <sabdfl>  /bin/dd bs 1 if /proc/kmsg of /var/run/klogd/kmsg
[11:27] <Keybuk> sabdfl: kernel log daemon
[11:27] <sabdfl> and what could that be?
[11:28] <cartman> daniels: looks like symlink is missing but I rolled back to -24 for now :/
[11:28] <Keybuk> well, you have direct access to the disk underneath (/dev/hdaX)
[11:28] <Keybuk> so you could grep that for what you were looking for
[11:28] <sabdfl> Keybuk: i need to delete a bunch of those files
[11:28] <Keybuk> any particular reason?  they're not doing much
[11:28] <Keybuk> or are they using space?
[11:29] <Keybuk> sabdfl: you should be able to stop that with /etc/init.d/klogd stop
[11:30] <fabbione> hmmm also sysklogd
[11:30] <sabdfl> errr... jdub, could you cd / please?
[11:36] <doko> $ apt-get source python-defaults
[11:36] <doko> Reading package lists... Done
[11:36] <doko> Building dependency tree... Done
[11:36] <doko> Need to get 207kB of source archives.
[11:36] <doko> Get:1 http://archive.ubuntu.com breezy/main python-defaults 2.4.1-0ubuntu2 (dsc) [695B] 
[11:36] <doko> Get:2 http://archive.ubuntu.com breezy/main python-defaults 2.4.1-0ubuntu2 (tar) [206kB] 
[11:36] <doko> Fetched 207kB in 0s (238kB/s)
[11:36] <doko> dpkg-source: error: unrecognised file suffix `.tar'
[11:37] <doko> Unpack command 'dpkg-source -x python-defaults_2.4.1-0ubuntu2.dsc' failed.
[11:37] <doko> E: Child process failed
[11:37] <doko> Keybuk: ^^^
[11:38] <thom> native packages with debian versions don't work anymore, apparently
[11:38] <thom> and keybuk's quit
[11:39] <daniels> mdz: the Generic Mouse thing being reverted from -21 sounds plausible
[11:39] <daniels> mdz: didn't help that I was offline for about 50 hours
[11:40] <doko> thom: he escaped at the right moment ;)
[11:44] <cartman> re
[11:50] <fabbione> thom: i am trying to bootstrap ghc6... it's a royal pain
[11:53] <thom> fabbione: yeah, it looked like being no fun at all, which is why i'm running darcs in a hoary chroot 
[11:58] <fabbione>  /usr/src/wartydevel/misc/ghc6-6.4/ghc/includes/HsFFI.h:112:2: error: #error GHC untested on this architecture: sizeof(void *) != 4 or 8
[11:58] <fabbione> this is on i386 :)
[11:59] <bob2> haha
[12:01] <daniels> haha
[12:01] <daniels> go ghc!
[12:03] <fabbione> i think the only way to bootstrap it properly is a dual build dance
[12:03] <fabbione> the c++ transition isn't helping
[12:03] <fabbione> first port libgmp3 to debian
[12:03] <fabbione> rebuild debian ghc6 with the new libgmp3
[12:04] <fabbione> so that it can be installed in breezy
[12:04] <fabbione> and from there build ghc6 in breezy
[12:04] <fabbione> direct bootstrap seems pretty broken
[12:06] <thom> fabbione: new libgmp3? it's libgmp3c2 now, you realise?
[12:07] <fabbione> thom: that's what i meant
[12:07] <fabbione> ghc6 depends on libgmp3
[12:07] <fabbione> so it cannot be installed in breezy
[12:07] <fabbione> ghc6 b-d on ghc6
[12:07] <fabbione> somewhere you need start breaking the loop
[12:07] <thom> ok, you expressed it badly. i know the chain
[12:07] <fabbione> yes.. it's sunday dude :P
[12:30] <jdub> sabdfl: pong?
[12:30] <sabdfl> hiya
[12:30] <jdub> haha
[12:30] <jdub> now i grok :)
[12:31] <sabdfl> i'm bring up a new var partition, needed to SIGHUP you to unmount the new one while i cleaned up underneath it
[12:31] <jdub> yeah
[12:31] <jdub> rock
[12:31] <sabdfl> just waiting for the IO to finish
[12:31] <jdub> elmo and i will transfer it this week too
[12:33] <HiddenWolf> Guys, stupid question, but does the ubuntu project currently have someone whose job it is to check where ubuntu is going and provide commentary on the user-friendly-ness of the solution rather than the technical side of things?
[12:34] <sabdfl> HiddenWolf: we try to do that all the time, but we probably do need a formal structure to provide direction on that front
[12:35] <HiddenWolf> saddfl, please try to do so. I keep running into those little things that are the downside of OS-dom. Interfaces and structures directed at the poweruser, technical solutions to problems in experience or communication, etc.
[12:36] <HiddenWolf> *grumble* typo's
[12:37] <HiddenWolf> Now this is much better in ubuntu than it is in for instance gnome, i'll give you that, but it's hard to think outside of your own patterns and experiences, so the poblem is still there.
[12:38] <daniels> sometimes you don't always realise how broken stuff is
[12:38] <daniels> so as much specific feedback as we can get will always help
[12:39] <HiddenWolf> I realise that for instance you with x are swamped with cases where you just need to make it work. Downside of that is that you might not have time to fix some annoying issue that bugs the hell out of everyone, think lack of support for scrolling with the mouse-wheel.
[12:39] <HiddenWolf> You and I will have set it up so that that'll work fine for us, and forget about it.
[12:39] <daniels> uhm, mouse wheel scrolling should work already :)
[12:40] <HiddenWolf> It didn't for me, last time I installed. :P
[12:40] <daniels> hm, bong.
[12:40] <daniels> it's always worked out of the box for me
[12:40] <daniels> unfortunately because it's so hardware-specific, there's a lot of options you can't enable because it doesn't work on some hardware
[12:41] <HiddenWolf> Now there. That's an issue that's very hard to solve technically, so the best way to do it, imho, is check if it works, and if it doesn't, inform the user, and piont to how he can make it work.
[12:42] <daniels> yeah, I do that as much as possible
[12:42] <daniels> but the failure modes are frequently: a) machine locks up hard, b) indications all perfectly good as far as we can tell, but complete failure to display anything on the screen
[12:43] <HiddenWolf> I don't blame you for fixing A first, mind you.
[12:43] <daniels> but sometimes it's just flat-out impossible to tell
[12:43] <daniels> (doesn't help when it's BIOS-dependent, so you can't even have a whitelist of devices that work.)
[12:45] <HWolf> It's the kind of thing that caused sarge to ship with security disabled in /etc/apt/sources.list - every devel must have noticed that, fixed it in a few seconds, and went on with his live.
[12:45] <daniels> actually, I'm betting that most just weren't *using* sarge out of the box, CD-wise
[12:45] <daniels> i do test installs, but I don't use them for terribly long; I stay with the same install I've had for a while
[12:45] <daniels> customising it to work again just takes too long
[12:46] <daniels> also, they were enabled, just wrong
[12:46] <daniels> so it was a bit too subtle
[12:46] <HWolf> It nicely illustrates the "works for me, no issue" kind of problem, tho.
[12:46] <daniels> sure
[12:47] <daniels> but sometimes there are failures you really just can't detect
[12:47] <daniels> such as the security line shipping with 'testing' rather than 'unstable'
[12:47] <daniels> in any case, if you do have any specific issues with X et al, please do let me know and I'll do what I can
[12:48] <HWolf> X has been a charming bit of software since I started loving ubuntu, no issue there, but I'll let you know. :)
[12:48] <HWolf> I'll do a breezy test once it's somewhere near usable, and give you the heads-up on the mouse thing tho.
[12:49] <bob2> HWolf: er, the sarge issue wasn't noticed because the problem only manifested itself after stable pointed at sarge on the mirrors
[12:49] <daniels> x charms no-one
[12:52] <HWolf> Reason I bring this up is that I regularly have these discussions, and often people are like "well, it works for me / is not much of an issue / it'd only save the user a few seconds of time if I did that" and they'll happily go on hacking some nice new feature. :)
[12:53] <daniels> sure
[12:53] <daniels> sometimes there's not much we can do -- 'mouse wheel doesn't work' isn't entirely useful in and of itself
[12:53] <daniels> so as much information as you can give is awesome
[12:54] <daniels> anyway, bbiab
[12:54] <HWolf> I understand that the information I give just now isn't entirely adequate. :)
[12:54] <mdke> filing bugs is the best thing
[12:54] <mdke> even for the smallest usability issue
[12:55] <lsuactiafner> anyone know how many simultaneous connections a user opens when he browses compared to having a p2p app on?
[12:55] <HWolf> lsuactiafner, p2p usually takes up a magnitute more in connections than simple browsing.
[12:56] <lsuactiafner> 1:100 ratio?
[12:56] <HWolf> mdke, know what you're asking. That'd go from evo not checking mail at startup to that stupid progress-bar in archive-manager that doesn't display progress and back.
[12:56] <lsuactiafner> i need to limit outgoig TCP SYN request else i get flooded with ACKS on my 5k/s dailup
[12:56] <mdke> HWolf, absolutely anything
[12:56] <HWolf> lsuactiafner, I'd say somewhere 10 or 50:1, but I'm not an expert.
[12:57] <HWolf> mdke, like them in bugzilla here, or upstream? :)
[12:57] <lsuactiafner> thanks
[12:57] <mdke> HWolf, well it depends, both i guess. Sometimes they will get pushed upstream if you file them here first
[12:58] <mdke> HWolf, here is an example: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6076
[12:58] <HWolf> lsuactiafner, fyi, If I'm using torrent, i'm usually *limiting* uploading to 20 people per file.
[12:58] <HWolf> mdke, cool.
[12:59] <lsuactiafner> torrents dont even work for me, too slow
[12:59] <lsuactiafner> getting via a ftp is faster
[12:59] <HWolf> Going OT there. ;)
[01:14] <HWolf> btw, how do I find out which program is swapping even tho I have 600mb ram free?
[01:16] <Lathiat> HWolf: why are you concerned
[01:16] <Lathiat> its not an issue
[01:16] <Lathiat> linux will swap stuff out to keep disk buffers in memory
[01:16] <Lathiat> which is a much better use
[01:16] <HWolf> Hm, so the kernel will do that?
[01:17] <Lathiat> yes
[01:18] <HWolf> Looks silly to me, but ok
[01:31] <lsuactiafner> HWolf : sysctl -a | grep mem and ratio
[01:31] <HWolf> mdke, I'll blame you if I drive seb128 into cardiac arrest. 4 bugs on his plate, and that's just the things that come to mind now. :P
[01:31] <lsuactiafner> sysctl -e vm.overcommit_memory=1
[01:32] <lsuactiafner> vm.overcommit_ratio=16
[01:32] <lsuactiafner> works better like that in my experience but dont take my word for it
[01:41] <mdke> HWolf, *grins* ok. Make sure you check bugzilla to make sure the bug isn't already filed tho
[01:42] <HWolf> mdke, sure thing.
[01:43] <HWolf> I'll refrain from indulging till I switch to breezy tho. :)
[01:54] <Keybuk> meh ... *so* hot today :(
[01:57] <thom> not as  silly as yesterday
[01:58] <azeem> how was the concert?
[01:58] <HWolf> thom, it's worse than yesterday here
[01:58] <HWolf> or rather, much much nicer. ;)
[01:59] <thom> azeem: very, very, very good
[01:59] <thom> better than good
[02:00] <azeem> cool
[02:00] <HWolf> thom, very good is better than good, yes. :P
[02:01] <sabdfl> jdub: it should be fixed now, rebooting and dashing out
[02:01] <sabdfl> privmsg me if there are further issues
[02:01] <sabdfl> i'll pick them up when i get back
[02:25] <mdke> oooh
[02:25] <mdke> we got mail
[02:54] <bob2> lists are back
[02:54] <mdke> :)
[02:54] <ogra> yay
[03:08] <Keybuk> oh, crap
[03:10] <doko> Kebuk: do you mean 11966? ;)
[03:25] <Keybuk> doko: no?
[04:30] <\sh> nice..the MLs are working again
[04:47] <tseng> thom: any idea why network-manager seems to be killing my X session when i walk away?
[04:49] <tseng> thom: i come back and vt7 is at the console with a bunch of dhcp crap
[05:15] <thom> tseng: huh, weird
[05:20] <HWolf> Guys, can't you patch firefox to deny it acces to my sound system?
[05:20] <tseng> dont install flash?
[05:20] <infinity> ...
[05:21] <HWolf> tseng, that'd turn half the internet off-limits. :S
[05:21] <tseng> i dunno what sites you are going to
[05:21] <tseng> flash is for suckers
[05:21] <HWolf> Nearly worth it, with the amount of flash-based popups for ringtones I get nowadays. :S
[05:23] <HWolf> One moment I'm listening to mozart, the next it's crazy frog, or whatever the next hype will be. :S
[05:38] <xxenon> hi
[05:38] <xxenon> is "noinotify" still needed when starting a 2.6.12 kernel ?
[05:58] <zul> xenon: no
[06:06] <wasabi> Oh damn.
[06:06] <wasabi> I found my Eclipse compile problem. When I don't use fakeroot it works fine. ;)
[07:43] <mdz> daniels: the reports of XKB trouble seem to indicate that perhaps other patches were dropped from earlier versions as well
[07:49] <jdub> mdz: weirdly, my keyboard worked with xorg -28 but not -29
[07:49] <ogra> mine is still stuck at us mapping and 101 keys
[07:50] <mdz> jdub: not so much weird as ludicrous ;-)
[07:50] <mdz> ogra: that's been broken since ~-26; I haven't tried to fix it
[07:50] <mdz> dvorak seems to work ok
[07:50] <ogra> yes
[07:50] <ogra> i noticed
[07:51] <mdz> ogra: if you can test it, look back through the revisions and look for a patch reverted without being mentioned in the changelog, and try reversing that change
[07:51] <ogra> i'll do... after i reviewed the patch i'm looking at
[07:52] <infinity> ...
[07:52] <infinity> Not so much "without being mentioned", but "being unmentioned".
[07:52] <infinity> Try to un-revert the patch that gets unmentioned from the -24 changelog. :)
[07:52] <Mithrandir> unrevert, aka "apply"?
[07:52] <infinity> (if you debdiff from -24 to current, you'll see some lines in the -24 changelog get mysteriously changed)
[07:53] <infinity> Mithrandir : Yes. :)
[07:53] <infinity> I haven't had a chance to look at it, due to it being a weekend, and me liking not being single.
[07:54] <mdz> infinity: do you still have some notes or something you could share?  it sounded like you had isolated the bit that should be reapplied
[07:54] <infinity> But I suspect that re-applying the stuff that got dropped from 24 to 25 will make people's keyboards live again.
[07:54] <infinity> mdz : The computer I was looking at it on is now in intercontinental transit, so I have nothing beyond handwaving in front of me.
[07:54] <mdz> -25 is gone from the mirrors, but I suppose it's still in the morgue
[07:55] <infinity> (a friend is coming to visit, and bringing the PPC machine that's been colocated at his house for the last 2 years)
[07:55] <infinity> -24 is the important one.
[07:56] <infinity> debdiff from -24 to anything newer will show the dropped "xkb cleanup" patches.
[07:58] <infinity> Err, no, from -25 to current.
[07:58] <infinity> -24 was just an FTBFS fix.
[08:00] <infinity> Meh, I wake up and start work in 6 hours anyway.  If it's still unfixed by then, I'm "on the job", so I'll get it done.
[08:01] <mdz> infinity: ogra said he would take a look when he finished with his current work
[08:01] <infinity> mdz : Alright, I'll ping ogra in the morning, then.  Or just check -changes for uploads. :)
[08:02] <infinity> ogra : If you get completely lost in a maze of X breakages, mail me, or hang around for 6ish hours and catch me on IRC.
[08:03] <ogra> heh, i'll do... but i'll keep my current X version around so i should be able to switch back if needed.... its the big time of gnome-charmap here :)
[08:11] <mdz> Kamion: I would like to add a line to sshd_config when ltsp-server is installed, and remove it when it is removed.  Which method would you recommend?
[08:19] <infinity> ogra : Ahh, I was right the first time.  Look at the diffs between -24 and -25.
[08:20] <infinity> ogra : The that I think we want back was introduced in -21, and dropped in -25 (in diffs from -24 to -25, you'll see that the -21 changelog gets changed retroactively)
[08:20] <infinity> s/The that/The patch that/
[08:20] <infinity> And now, to bed.
[08:20] <ogra> infinity, i'll do, GO TO BED NOW !! 
[08:20] <infinity> Yes, mom.
[08:21] <ogra> heh
[08:21] <Kamion> mdz: run away. sshd_config is handled really badly at the moment
[08:21] <Kamion> mdz: what exact line do you need to add?
[08:22] <Kamion> daniels: can't remember what I pinged you about
[08:22] <Kamion> daniels: oh, it was xterm being uninstallable and unbuilt by anything
[08:23] <mdz> Kamion: "AcceptEnv LTSP_CLIENT"
[08:23] <Kamion> I wonder if that could just go in the default config - although it's rather unclean
[08:23] <mdz> if you don't mind adding it to the default configuration, that is of course fine too.  I don't know why environment variables shouldn't be accepted by default though
[08:23] <Kamion> er, LD_PRELOAD
[08:23] <Kamion> (say)
[08:23] <mdz> Kamion: I don't see the issue, unless it's a command-restricted login
[08:24] <Kamion> well, that exactly
[08:24] <Kamion> sshd doesn't distinguish at that point
[08:24] <Kamion> (afaik)
[08:24] <mdz> ah
[08:24] <mdz> due to privsep, or just the way it is?
[08:24] <Kamion> there are other kinds of restricted environments, remember
[08:24] <Kamion> e.g. restricted shells
[08:24] <mdz> yes
[08:25] <Kamion> plus in general I just prefer to be paranoid where sshd is concerned :-)
[08:25] <Kamion> so what goes in LTSP_CLIENT?
[08:26] <mdz> it's analogous to SSH_CLIENT
[08:26] <mdz> it'll just say where the client came from
[08:26] <mdz> but mostly things will just test whether it is set
[08:27] <mdz> to do things like, e.g., use  different xscreensaver configuration
[08:27] <Kamion> hmm, ok
[08:27] <mdz> s/  / a /
[08:27] <mdz> hmm
[08:27] <mdz> I suppose I could pass it via the command instead
[08:27] <mdz> ssh server env LTSP_CLIENT=blah <command>
[08:27] <mdz> as long as I can suffer the quoting issues
[08:27] <ogra> mdz, ssh has a option to pass env vars....
[08:28] <Kamion> if you stick with the AcceptEnv version, I think I'd prefer ltsp to do the sshd_config modification
[08:28] <mdz> ogra: see above
[08:28] <Kamion> ogra: that's what he's using
[08:28] <ogra> ah
[08:28] <ogra> sorry, missed that
[08:28] <Kamion> hmm, I wonder if multiple AcceptEnv variables work
[08:28] <mdz> I should hope so
[08:28] <mdz> but I'm going to try the env approach I think
[08:29] <Kamion> well, you can also do 'AcceptEnv FOO BAR BAZ' which is why I'm checking
[08:29] <Kamion> ah, yes, the man page says multiple AcceptEnv settings work
[08:29] <Kamion> so you can just stick 'AcceptEnv LTSP_CLIENT' on the end, and remove any line precisely matching that on removal
[08:30] <Kamion> should probably get upstream to implement Include <directory> at some point, although I'm betting they won't see the need
[08:34] <mdz> bah, need to reboot due to 2.6.12 abi change
[08:41] <mdz> gah, rebooting cost me my working xkb setup
[09:04] <ogra> hmm, whats wrong with the morgue, the listing stops at 2005-03-29
[09:07] <danielki> hmm
[09:07] <danielki> probably because that's my birthday
[09:10] <mdke> hmmm
[09:10] <mdke> how has dholbach succeeded in subscribing to the whole wiki
[09:10] <mdke> i am intrigued
[09:12] <ogra> mdz, Kamion ? any idea how to get the packages ?
[09:18] <thom> mdke: .* in the subscribe line should do it
[09:20] <mdke> thom, aha
[09:27] <mdke> thom, doesn't seem to have done the trick
[10:04] <abarbaccia> hey all - can someone give me a gameplan on whats going to be included in breezy?
[10:05] <whiprush> abarbaccia: scour udu.wiki.canonical.com
[10:05] <whiprush> everything is in there
[10:05] <whiprush> BreezyGoals will give you a general idea
[10:13] <Echylo> slaapwel iedereen :)
[10:43] <mdz> ogra: any luck with xorg?
[10:43] <ogra> mdz, not yet
[10:44] <ogra> i cant compare with -21, the morgue doesnt have packages after 2005-03-29 it seems....
[10:44] <mdz> -24 is still in the archive; that's all we need
[10:44] <ogra> but it looks like a symlinking problem...
[10:47] <ogra> mdz, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb -> /etc/X11/xkb/ and /usr/lib/X11/XKeysymDB -> /usr/share/X11/XKeysymDB might do it
[10:48] <mdz>    * Fix keysym<->string semantics by backporting the rest of Markus Kuhn's
[10:48] <mdz> -    Great Keysym Cleanup from HEAD, and creating a symlink from
[10:48] <mdz> -    /usr/lib/X11/XKeysymDB into /usr/X11R6/lib/X11 (closes: Ubuntu#10942).
[10:48] <mdz> +    Great Keysym Cleanup from HEAD (closes: Ubuntu#10942).
[10:48] <mdz> yep
[10:49] <mdz> diff -u xorg-6.8.2/debian/xlibs-data.links xorg-6.8.2/debian/xlibs-data.links
[10:49] <mdz> --- xorg-6.8.2/debian/xlibs-data.links
[10:49] <mdz> +++ xorg-6.8.2/debian/xlibs-data.links
[10:49] <mdz> @@ -2,2 +1,0 @@
[10:49] <mdz> -usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeysymDB usr/lib/X11/XKeysymDB
[10:49] <mdz> -usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XErrorDB usr/lib/X11/XErrorDB
[10:49] <ogra> hmm
[10:50] <mdz> I will test and upload
[10:57] <ogra> @|~
[10:57] <ogra> works :-D
[11:59] <mdz> ogra: ok, you upload then. my build failed :-)
[11:59] <ogra> meh, i havent built yet....
[11:59] <ogra> ok