[04:46] <jsgotangco> hello
[04:47] <judax> Hi
[05:23] <squinn> hey judax, jsgotangco 
[05:23] <squinn> jsgotangco: question for you
[05:23] <squinn> and i only ask you because i've heard your name/nick before LOL
[05:25] <judax> Hi squinn 
[05:27] <jsgotangco> hi
[05:27] <jsgotangco> sure
[05:27] <jsgotangco> squinn, fire away
[05:27] <jsgotangco> holy shit i forgot my sudo password
[05:29] <squinn> um, i think i may have determined it
[05:29] <squinn> but i dunno.
[05:29] <jsgotangco> ?
[05:29] <squinn> jsgotangco, if it's possible, can you see why i'm not getting mail from ubuntu-doc
[05:29] <squinn> i mean, i can send out now
[05:29] <jsgotangco> whats your email
[05:29] <squinn> and i got some of my own messages
[05:29] <squinn> seandq@gmail.com
[05:30] <squinn> but i am not getting any in
[05:30] <jsgotangco> im so scrwed i forgot my own password
[05:30] <squinn> i think it COULD be because i was set to get only english docteam messages
[05:30] <squinn> can't you check?
[05:30] <squinn> h/o i know how to check
[05:31] <jsgotangco> no i mean my password in another box
[05:31] <squinn> http://ubuntuguide.org/#changerootpasswordforgotten, jsgotangco 
[05:31] <jsgotangco> let me check the archives
[05:31] <squinn> oh
[05:31] <squinn> ok
[05:31] <squinn> do you use GRUB on that box?
[05:32] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:32] <jsgotangco> my problem is i forgot my sudo password so i cant even passwd root
[05:33] <squinn> okay here's the fix
[05:33] <squinn> it's an ubuntu box?
[05:33] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:33] <squinn> and you use grub
[05:33] <squinn> first thing i suggest
[05:33] <squinn> is that you boot into that kernel's recovery mode
[05:34] <squinn> it gives you root access and all you then type is "passwd root"
[05:34] <jsgotangco> ahh
[05:41] <jsgotangco> oh it gaveme root access
[05:41] <jsgotangco> cant i just change password to my username here?
[05:44] <jsgotangco> squinn, there's nothing wrong with your list account its all default
[05:46] <rob^> is there an index of all the pages in the wiki?
[05:48] <jsgotangco> there used to be one
[05:48] <jsgotangco> hmm
[05:48] <jsgotangco> not so sure about the moin one
[05:48] <rob^> I didnt think so, I couldnt find it anyway
[05:53] <rob^> the subversion server certificate isn't issued by a cert authotity.. is this normal?
[05:54] <jsgotangco> it means that the server certificate is not listed in a 3rd party. that is pretty normal
[05:54] <jsgotangco> (my mailserver for one)
[05:54] <rob^> yeah, I was just making sure nothing funny was going on
[07:44] <rob^> just a quick question about the user guide, the sections marked "NO STATUS" mean that no one has started work on the section, right?
[07:46] <jsgotangco> on the wiki?
[07:46] <jsgotangco> the wiki is not that updated
[07:46] <jsgotangco> im supposed to fix the status for docs :)
[07:46] <rob^> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/status/ug-report.html
[07:46] <jsgotangco> no please don't refer to that doc
[07:47] <jsgotangco> anything inside mako's shell is most likely old
[07:47] <rob^> ah
[07:47] <rob^> where is the up-to-date list, if any?
[07:48] <jsgotangco> we have a docteam project page but its not updated
[07:48] <jsgotangco> give me until today to fix that
[07:48] <rob^> np
[07:48] <rob^> thanks
[07:48] <froud> morn jsgotangco 
[07:49] <jsgotangco> froud, hi mate
[07:49] <jsgotangco> froud, what a mouthful
[07:49] <froud> mouthful?
[07:49] <jsgotangco> the email :)
[07:49] <rob^> jsgotangco, where is that page located?
[07:49] <froud> oh yeah, me bad guy, taking flack :-)
[07:50] <froud> jsgotangco: if you want to setup the status previews we must enable the scripts
[07:50] <jsgotangco> rob^, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
[07:50] <jsgotangco> scripts?
[07:50] <rob^> ah ok.. thats the one I was using
[07:51] <jsgotangco> rob^, the status are terribly old
[07:51] <rob^> yeah
[07:51] <froud> jsgotangco: yes the scripts that create those  pages on DocteamPages
[07:51] <froud> oops
[07:51] <froud> DocteamProjects
[07:54] <froud> for script to generate those pages see libs/writeOwnerStatus.xsl
[09:14] <jsgotangco> hi
[09:14] <mdke> morning
[09:14] <mdke> i am going back to bed
[09:14] <mdke> just woke up because some kind of thunderbolt struck outside
[09:15] <jsgotangco> heh its raining here but no thunderbolts
[09:15] <mdke> my internet connection has been down all night :/
[09:16] <mdke> how are you jsgotangco ?
[09:16] <jsgotangco> im trying to chew sean's email
[09:17] <mdke> i am pleased he wrote
[09:17] <mdke> dialogue is important
[09:17] <jsgotangco> i will still go to the TB route but tell them that we will ship what we decide
[09:19] <mdke> the point is, the doc team needs to discuss these matters as a team
[09:19] <mdke> THEN we need to get good communication and rapport going with -devel
[09:19] <jsgotangco> aye
[09:19] <mdke> mine and henrik's emails are not really about what to ship
[09:20] <jsgotangco> yep
[09:29] <robitaille> the double titles on most wiki pages since the migration are annoying me.    Should we start removing the 2nd titles?
[09:30] <mdke> like what?
[09:30] <mdke> you mean the /talk pages?
[09:30] <robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth
[09:31] <robitaille> where you see "Mark Shuttleworth" twice at the top
[09:31] <mdke> oh i see
[09:31] <mdke> that doesn't bother me!
[09:31] <mdke> jsgotangco, but obviously if you want to remove them you can
[09:31] <mdke> there are about 1500 pages to do ;)
[09:32] <robitaille> yeah I know.  I have removed a couple while doing other edits
[09:32] <mdke> me too
[09:32] <mdke> btw I made a CategoryUbuntuTeams just now
[09:33] <robitaille> question about that:  are they just for official teams?  I just saw the ArtTeam a few minutes ago; should they get that category added at the end?
[09:34] <mdke> tbh I don't know
[09:34] <mdke> i think it should be in that category
[09:34] <mdke> and also linked on the UbuntuTeams page
[09:34] <robitaille> I don't think they are an official teams;  not even sure if it is an active team
[09:35] <mdke> not sure
[09:36] <robitaille> that's what I was leaning toward.....a team is a team..  Do you know what is the story about graphics that didn't make the transition?  That ArtTeam page link to a png that obviously isn't there right now.
[09:36] <mdke> yes it is being worked on
[09:36] <mdke> they got lost
[09:36] <mdke> we may need to relink them when they are copied back
[09:38] <robitaille> it's nice to have a new wiki...but quite a few things are broken.  (just saw the latest e-mail from jsgotangco about missing meeting summaries)
[09:38] <jsgotangco> hmm one wiki page i made literally disappeared :)
[09:38] <jsgotangco> GYAAHHH
[09:38] <mdke> jsgotangco, which?
[09:38] <jsgotangco> pdatesting
[09:39] <jsgotangco> i did that spec :)
[09:39] <jsgotangco> oh wait
[09:39] <jsgotangco> i was at the talk page
[09:39] <jsgotangco> *whew*
[09:39] <mdke> pages are backed up anyway
[09:40] <mdke> robitaille, yeah :(
[09:40] <mdke> what email about missing meeting summaries?
[09:40] <mdke> oh
[09:40] <robitaille> sent to the ubuntu-doc list 8 minutes ago
[09:40] <mdke> that is not due to the wiki transition
[09:41] <jsgotangco> forget it, im totally messed up this morning
[09:41] <mdke> that is due to jsgotangco randomly posting stuff that wasn't there ;)
[09:41] <mdke> *grins*
[09:41] <mdke> let him get his fix of green tea
[09:41] <jsgotangco> i'm not sending another email
[09:41] <jsgotangco> its probably that freaking ice crream during lunch
[09:42] <mdke> mmm
[09:42] <mdke> icecream
[09:42] <mdke> so maybe I won't go back to bed
[09:46] <mdke> haven't had much sleep tho...
[10:46] <jsgotangco> mdke, you're not italian yet you are part of the italian team?
[10:46] <jsgotangco> (not based in italy as well)
[10:47] <mdke> that's it
[10:54] <mdke> who uses bluefish?
[10:54] <jsgotangco> i do
[10:54] <mdke> i installed it yesterday, its amazing
[10:54] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:54] <jsgotangco> im surprised you just installed it
[10:54] <mdke> i'm gonna use it for our stuff
[10:54] <jsgotangco> its been available for a while
[10:55] <mdke> it supports docbook too
[10:55] <mdke> morning mpt 
[10:55] <jsgotangco> yes it does
[10:55] <jsgotangco> so does screem and conglomerate
[10:55] <mpt> hi mdke, jsgotangco, everybody
[10:55] <jsgotangco> mpt, hi
[11:08] <froud-work> sounds suspiciously like IE will be a FF clone :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XAML/message/429
[11:09] <froud-work> However, Microsoft
[11:09] <froud-work> recognizes that much more work remains to be done and will continue to make improvements in the IE version that ships with Longhorn as well as in IE 8.0.
[11:10] <froud-work> Hmmm
[11:10] <jsgotangco> mmm?
[11:10] <froud-work> hopefully they wont mess it up along the way
[12:35] <jsgotangco> enrico, hi :)
[12:41] <enrico> hi
[01:08] <jsgotangco> im going home
[01:08] <jsgotangco> later people
[01:09] <mdke> night
[04:49] <gtaylor> does anyone remember when Warty was first released?
[04:49] <gtaylor> like around what date?
[04:49] <gtaylor> about a year ago?
[04:49] <mdke> october 2004
[04:50] <mdke> ubuntu releases are every 6 months
[04:50] <mdke> (see about-ubuntu ;)
[04:50] <gtaylor> ok, thanks
[04:50] <gtaylor> yeah I saw that
[04:50] <froud-work> wary release numbers give clues 4.10
[04:50] <gtaylor> doh, forgot about that
[04:50] <froud-work> 5.10
[05:42] <mdke> sorry for the connect/disconnect spamming
[05:42] <mdke> hopefully done now
[05:51] <philipacamaniac> mdke, do you have a list of wikipages with broken image links?
[06:11] <philipacamaniac> how can I make WordsLikeThis not appear as InterWiki links? (e.g., KolourPaint or KRegExpEditor)
[06:15] <Burgundavia> you don't
[06:15] <Burgundavia> that is called camelcase
[06:15] <Burgundavia> and that is how the wiki makes links
[06:15] <Burgundavia> kind of dumb, actually
[06:16] <philipacamaniac> so, okay...
[06:16] <philipacamaniac> hmm
[06:17] <philipacamaniac> I guess renaming them to Kolourpaint and Kregexpeditor is the best idea? or maybe post them as `inline code`
[06:19] <philipacamaniac> I'm going to search for this "bug" at MoinMoin, because almost every KDE application appears to use camelcase, which makes it muy dificil for creating and working on KDE wikipages.
[06:37] <Burgundavia> the bug is not going to go away until the wiki switches from CamelCase
[06:37] <Burgundavia> which would be nice, but most wikis do it
[06:38] <jjesse> does that mean we have to type it wrong?
[06:38] <philipacamaniac> why can't a character be implemented that escapes camelcase?
[06:38] <Burgundavia> we should probably switch to non-CamelCase along with Wikipedia
[06:38] <Burgundavia> as that is more intuitive, in my view
[06:39] <Burgundavia> file a bug in the ubuntu bugzilla about dropping camelcase
[06:40] <philipacamaniac> I agree about the intuitive comment, and I will file an internal bug, but I still think an camelcase escape character/command could exist.
[06:44] <Burgundavia> if we switch to non-camelcase, then we don't have the issue
[06:44] <Burgundavia> as links become [[link] ] 
[06:44] <philipacamaniac> good point
[07:08] <mdke> philipacamaniac, for the broken images, we will organise a structured action and post it to the list
[07:08] <philipacamaniac> excellent
[07:08] <mdke> it will be awesome if you can help
[07:09] <philipacamaniac> I'm a very web-oriented guy, so the wiki seems like the best way for me to help right now. I'm also posting some markup suggestions to the list.
[07:09] <mdke> there is a way of stopping WordsLikeThis not linking I think
[07:10] <mdke> philipacamaniac, that's cool thanks
[07:10] <philipacamaniac> what's the method?
[07:10] <mdke> lemme test
[07:11] <mdke> hmm
[07:11] <mdke> its not pretty philipacamaniac 
[07:11] <mdke> still wanna hear it?
[07:11] <philipacamaniac> as long as it works
[07:11] <mdke> Words''''''Like''''''This
[07:12] <philipacamaniac> wtf?
[07:12] <philipacamaniac> what is that character??
[07:12] <mdke> its an apostrophe
[07:12] <mdke> on my uk keyboard it is under the @ sign
[07:12] <mdke> you use '' for italics, ''' for bold etc
[07:12] <philipacamaniac> okay, lemme try
[07:12] <mdke> example is on MatthewEast
[07:12] <mdke> at the end of the first line
[07:13] <philipacamaniac> okay so 6 single quotes
[07:13] <philipacamaniac> it didn't look like that when you posted in here :)
[07:14] <mdke> oh
[07:14] <mdke> what did it look like?
[07:14] <philipacamaniac> that's perfect, and exactly what I was looking for.... it looked like  <-  (sort of)
[07:14] <mdke> weird
[07:15] <philipacamaniac> but I'm on my laptop, which is *gasp* windows
[07:15] <mdke> oh that's why
[07:15] <philipacamaniac> yeah
[07:15] <mdke> it doesn't read utf8 properly
[07:15] <mdke> btw those ideas you sent to the list are nice
[07:15] <philipacamaniac> I meant to send a couple more, they are on their way... I just forgot to add them
[07:17] <mdke> a link to return to the original page is important i think
[07:17] <philipacamaniac> the command is there, just not the link
[07:18] <mdke> after editing it takes you to MatthewEast#preview, which is annoying, so it would be cool to have a button to go back to MatthewEast
[07:18] <philipacamaniac> yep. what about the /talk idea? (a little more radical, I know)
[07:19] <mdke> actually having said that, the "clear this message" does that
[07:19] <mdke> yeah the talk idea is also good
[07:19] <mdke> i don't think the interface is too busy
[07:19] <philipacamaniac> "clear this message" doesn't appear on diff and show changes
[07:19] <mdke> nono
[07:19] <philipacamaniac> I mean diff and info
[07:19] <mdke> just on #preview
[07:19] <philipacamaniac> yeah
[07:19] <mdke> i gotta run to the shop
[07:19] <mdke> back later
[07:20] <philipacamaniac> k
[08:39] <abelli> vale comites.
[08:39] <mdke> hi abelli
[08:40] <abelli> ciao mdke 
[08:40] <abelli> mdke: do you guys have something ready (developerdocs)?
[08:41] <mdke> abelli, we are not working on developer docs right now afaik
[08:42] <mdke> our projects are http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
[08:42] <mdke> actually we should put that in the topic
[08:45] <philipacamaniac> you need a lot of help with the kubuntu docs, eh?
[08:46] <mdke> hmm
[08:46] <mdke> both really
[08:46] <mdke> actually a few people have joined recently with interest in kde
[08:47] <philipacamaniac> that's good... if I join the docteam, I'll prefer KDE documentation
[08:47] <mdke> ;)
[08:48] <froud-writing> welcome philipacamaniac kde fellow
[08:48] <philipacamaniac> hi
[08:50] <abelli> froud-writing: is that a good thing or not?
[08:50] <froud-writing> goood
[08:50] <abelli> enrico: ding
[08:50] <froud-writing> kde good
[08:50] <jjesse> kde really really good :)
[08:50] <philipacamaniac> :)
[08:51] <froud-writing> yumm
[08:51] <froud-writing> candy
[08:51] <abelli> im so sorry for you.
[08:52] <mdke> i tried enlightenment this evening
[08:52] <froud-writing> I know abelli I loveyou 2
[08:52] <mdke> it is very nice looking
[08:52] <abelli> mdke: youre coming from gentoo .. right?
[08:53] <jjesse> why the switch from gentoo mdke? i never heard
[08:53] <froud-writing> philipacamaniac: you want a bite of the kde user manual
[08:53] <abelli> jjesse: that was a thought .. if he uses e* .. 
[08:53] <froud-writing> gentoo good for servers
[08:53] <mdke> i use gentoo on my desktop abelli/jjesse
[08:54] <abelli> froud-writing: and froud good for writing .. not thinking.
[08:54] <philipacamaniac> froud-writing: I have no experience with DocBook yet, I'm lurking and getting a feel for it
[08:54] <froud-writing> philipacamaniac: dont be shy I will help you
[08:54] <froud-writing> philipacamaniac: you just write and leave the docbook to me
[08:55] <froud-writing> philipacamaniac: in time you will learn it too, its not hard
[08:55] <froud-writing> philipacamaniac: just looks that way
[08:55] <jjesse> if i can learn it anyone can :)
[08:56] <abelli> in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects .. the next release is still hoary.
[08:56] <froud-writing> whose up for hacking the balzes out of the kubuntu user guide, all in favor say aye!
[08:56] <mdke> Burgundavia, :)
[08:56] <mdke> abelli, will change, thanks
[08:56] <jjesse> aye :)
[08:56] <abelli> mdke: just call me master .. we're friends.
[08:56] <philipacamaniac> aye guess  ;)
[08:57] <froud-writing> gtaylor: what about you dude
[08:58] <froud-writing> jjesse: how much work you want?
[08:58] <abelli> sorry but afaics there are more things planned for kde than for gnome .. is kde more difficult and less intuitive than gnome?
[08:58] <froud-writing> philipacamaniac: and you? how much work?
[08:59] <jjesse> is there anything started in the kuserguide?
[08:59] <gtaylor> froud-writing: What's up?
[08:59] <froud-writing> I will have a #1 outline this week
[08:59] <philipacamaniac> we're talking https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde/kuserguide/ ? 
[08:59] <froud-writing> gtaylor: you up to hacking the blazes out of the kubuntu user guide?
[08:59] <froud-writing> new outline
[08:59] <abelli> Burgundavia: no one is following you .. :(
[09:00] <gtaylor> oh yeah, I was waiting on an outline so I could start :)
[09:00] <froud-writing> each take a part and blow it apart in a few weeks
[09:00] <jjesse> a lot of userguide for ubuntu can be used in kubuntu userguide correct?
[09:00] <philipacamaniac> this will be my first time, so I'll have to start small, please
[09:00] <froud-writing> Ok so I have an outline in the pipes
[09:00] <gtaylor> sounds good
[09:00] <froud-writing> philipacamaniac: dont worry you take what you can bite
[09:00] <philipacamaniac> excellent
[09:01] <froud-writing> OK here is my plan
[09:01] <mdke> *sigh*
[09:01] <froud-writing> I have a drop of the kde users manual
[09:01] <froud-writing> I am building it from upstream
[09:01] <froud-writing> I will drop it in the vendor/
[09:01] <froud-writing> and copy to the kde/kuserguide/
[09:02] <froud-writing> merge it into one piece so that everyone can take a chunk
[09:02] <froud-writing> any questions
[09:02] <froud-writing> OK some of our changes should flow upstream to kde
[09:02] <gtaylor> just let me know when the outline is up :)
[09:02] <mdke> i've just sent a mail to the list following up on the decision at the meeting for individuals to be responsible for documents
[09:03] <froud-writing> so I will merge specific stuff from the trunk/ into the vendor/
[09:03] <froud-writing> that way we can help upstream
[09:03] <philipacamaniac> mdke: ?
[09:03] <froud-writing> mdke: Hmm did not know
[09:03] <mdke> froud-writing, how could you, I just sent it now
[09:04] <froud-writing> OK, so jjesse, gtaylor, philipacamaniac the kubuntu user guide is a big peice
[09:04] <froud-writing> give me about two days and monitor th elist
[09:04] <mdke> sounds like froud-writing will take charge of the kde user guide ;)
[09:04] <gtaylor> ok
[09:04] <jjesse> just let me know and i will attack it
[09:05] <froud-writing> I will try to add comments so my outline is not too obscure
[09:05] <mdke> froud-writing, it would also be nice if you share what you are doing/planning with the rest of the team via the list
[09:05] <froud-writing> I know it is hard to get an outline if you did not write it yourself
[09:05] <froud-writing> mdke: I am just aiming at one of the targets
[09:05] <froud-writing> and gathering team players
[09:06] <mdke> i know
[09:06] <mdke> my point remains
[09:06] <abelli> is there any wysiwyg app for docbook?
[09:06] <Burgundavia> not really
[09:06] <froud-writing> mdke: no debate, no brakes
[09:06] <Burgundavia> OO.o can do it sort of
[09:06] <mdke> froud-writing, its not a question of debate, its a question of you announcing formally that you will take charge of that document, and share how you intend to do it with the list
[09:07] <mdke> both those points were agreed on at the meeting
[09:07] <mdke> also, a clarification of your position in the team would be nice
[09:07] <froud-writing> Another point is anyone here a boff with packaging
[09:08] <froud-writing> abelli is looking for a dumies guide on how to create debs
[09:08] <philipacamaniac> there's a good wiki page for that, lemme find it
[09:08] <gtaylor> I've dabbled in it a bit and could help if someone wanted to head that up
[09:08] <gtaylor> my user page has a link to that :)
[09:08] <froud-writing> abelli, you have +1 more now
[09:08] <mdke> there is some stuff here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
[09:10] <mdke> the wiki has a good search engine
[09:10] <abelli> mdke: thanks .. for saying something very useful.
[09:10] <froud-writing> abelli: how do you wnat it
[09:10] <froud-writing> fakeroot is good
[09:11] <abelli> i want it easy .. 
[09:11] <froud-writing> Hmm fakeroot is safe
[09:11] <abelli> like a sunday morning ..
[09:11] <froud-writing> bad day
[09:11] <squinn> back 
[09:11] <mdke> abelli, are you implying I don't normally say useful things? :p
[09:11] <froud-writing> alright abelli you lead it and we will support
[09:12] <froud-writing> hey squinn 
[09:12] <froud-writing> you're a kde dude
[09:12] <froud-writing> riht?
[09:12] <abelli> mdke: im implying that that wasnt absolutely useful.
[09:12] <mdke> ah
[09:13] <mdke> sorry for trying to help abelli 
[09:13] <abelli> mdke: thanks a lot.
[09:15] <squinn> no actually froud-writing 
[09:15] <squinn> im gnome
[09:15] <squinn> i just noticed that about kubuntu
[09:15] <squinn> hence why i made the patch
[09:15] <froud-writing> squinn: ok dude
[09:15] <froud-writing> no problem
[09:15] <squinn> I'm going to unsubscribe to the list..try resubscribing.
[09:16] <froud-writing> thanks
[09:16] <squinn> It's really crappy to me.
[09:16] <froud-writing> :-)
[09:16] <abelli> mdke: can you help me in that?
[09:16] <squinn> you're welcome, froud-writing 
[09:16] <mdke> abelli, with what?
[09:16] <abelli> Ubuntu Packaging Survival Guide.
[09:17] <mdke> I don't think so
[09:17] <mdke> i know nothing about it, and don't have much time atm
[09:17] <squinn> *growls*
[09:17] <abelli> ohhhg grazie mille.
[09:18] <squinn> I unsubscribe because I didn't get mdke's email.
[09:18] <squinn> I look in my inbox, there's my unsubscription notice..right after mdke's email.
[09:25] <mdke> squinn, the ubuntu mailing lists are a little slow sometimes, you have to be patient ;)
[09:25] <squinn> yep yep lol
[09:26] <Burgundavia> the lists were also down during the weekend, and may still be catching up on some server-side stuff
[09:27] <squinn> Burgundavia, I remember.
[09:27] <mdke> yes
[09:27] <squinn> I thought that Ubuntu was just running slow. 
[09:27] <squinn> Then I found out it was the great 2005 blackout haha
[09:29] <gtaylor> heh, that "What does a Linux Geek Look Like" thread is amusing
[09:35] <karlheg> http://web.pdx.edu/~hegbloom/Aptitude/tutorial-intro-aptitude.html
[09:36] <squinn> mdke, you get my msg on list?
[09:36] <squinn> because i didn't hah
[09:42] <gtaylor> If you guys have a moment, go to http://www.reviewlinux.com/articles/8/4 and give me a 5 :) (pretty please)
[09:42] <gtaylor> editor kinda chopped the review up a bit but it came out ok I guess
[09:43] <froud-writing> gtaylor: 10X cool dude
[09:44] <froud-writing> gtaylor: kde-docs is At revision 427473.
[09:44] <froud-writing> gtaylor: you think if I drop that into svn /vendor/kde/
[09:44] <froud-writing> we can track and merge revisions from upstream
[09:44] <froud-writing> I have upstream checkout
[09:45] <froud-writing> I can diff the upstream folder with /vendor/kde and apply the patches
[09:45] <froud-writing> then we can merge the stuff we want into trunk/kde
[09:45] <gtaylor> might be a good idea
[09:45] <froud-writing> gtaylor: you reckon its managable
[09:45] <gtaylor> would make it easier to grab from
[09:46] <gtaylor> froud-writing: Yeah, you might want to consider writing something to automatically checkout/commit the kde docs periodically though
[09:46] <gtaylor> if you have a box that's permanently connected to the net
[09:46] <froud-writing> yep
[09:47] <froud-writing> but the merge between vendor and trunk will have to be selective
[09:47] <froud-writing> otherwise we endup with massive conflicts
[09:47] <froud-writing> cause that revision is not a stable release
[09:47] <gtaylor> that would definitely be something that needs to be outlined in detail before people get to writing
[09:47] <froud-writing> sure
[09:48] <froud-writing> question is how many upstream changes will we merge to trunk
[09:48] <jjesse> gtaylor that was an interesting article, no mention of kde that i saw :(
[09:48] <gtaylor> good question :)
[09:48] <gtaylor> jjesse: That's the topic for a Kubuntu review (which I will write up)
[09:49] <judax> gtaylor: 5
[09:50] <gtaylor> danke
[09:50] <abelli> buona notte a tutti.
[09:51] <gtaylor> I'm not sure what that meant :)
[10:04] <froud-writing> gtaylor: open khelpcenter for a sec
[10:05] <gtaylor> ok
[10:05] <froud-writing> you see the blue books
[10:05] <gtaylor> yup
[10:05] <froud-writing> ok these are all in seperate folders
[10:05] <froud-writing> speaking to Riddle over at kubuntu-devel
[10:05] <gtaylor> ok
[10:06] <froud-writing> he sees no reason to branch kde docs. I agree
[10:06] <gtaylor> so he wants us to add the Ubuntu specific stuff to the KDE docs?
[10:06] <froud-writing> but it can be usefull if we can use xInclude to get text nodes
[10:06] <philipacamaniac> and searching doesn't work (argh!)
[10:06] <froud-writing> no
[10:07] <froud-writing> he says make a kubuntu specific docs
[10:07] <froud-writing> and if needed include content from kde upstream
[10:07] <gtaylor> ok
[10:07] <gtaylor> sounds like a safe plan
[10:07] <froud-writing> there are many places where we can copy their text
[10:08] <froud-writing> but why copy it when we can just xinclude it
[10:08] <gtaylor> yeah
[10:08] <froud-writing> so thinking
[10:08] <froud-writing> I will put a vendor drop of upstream in /vendor/kde
[10:09] <froud-writing> anyone working on kde will checkout the vendor drop relative to their trunk
[10:10] <froud-writing> that way our xinclude paths remain constant between us
[10:10] <gtaylor> sounds good
[10:10] <froud-writing> with the vendor drop we can, as and when required, choose to use xinclude/xpointer to bring in xml nodes by way of reference
[10:11] <froud-writing> so we have no need for copy paste
[10:11] <froud-writing> sound ok?
[10:11] <gtaylor> yeah, as long as we can modify the includes if the need be
[10:11] <gtaylor> (should be rare though)
[10:12] <froud-writing> yes we can but best done upstream
[10:12] <gtaylor> ok
[10:12] <froud-writing> or I can diff and patch between the two copies I have on disk
[10:12] <froud-writing> and that way commit it to kde
[10:12] <froud-writing> I have kde commit
[10:13] <froud-writing> but there is a warning with this
[10:13] <froud-writing> with this comes a responsability
[10:14] <froud-writing> if we make changes to xincludes then they must not be related to kubuntu but kde in general
[10:14] <gtaylor> That sounds fine as long as everyone knows and understands this
[10:15] <froud-writing> yep
[10:15] <froud-writing> do you understand xincludes?
[10:15] <froud-writing> jjesse: do you understand xincludes?
[10:16] <gtaylor> yeah, no problem here
[10:17] <froud-writing> OK that just leaves jjesse 
[10:17] <froud-writing> gtaylor: I will send a message to the list outlining all this
[10:17] <gtaylor> Sounds good
[10:17] <froud-writing> just incase ;-)
[10:18] <jjesse> xincludes? nope
[10:18] <jjesse> sorry
[10:18] <froud-writing> np
[10:18] <froud-writing> its ok
[10:18] <GregTaylor> testing IRC clients :)
[10:18] <froud-writing> Konversation 0.18 Build 3016
[10:19] <froud-writing> on 0.16 here
[10:19] <GregTaylor> they just updated it
[10:19] <froud-writing> how is 0.1.8
[10:19] <GregTaylor> think it might've been a backport. I'm not sure, never used 0.16 to Kompare it too :)
[10:20] <froud-writing> jjesse: can you read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ModularDoc.html when you get a chance and let me know if there is anything you dont understand?
[10:21] <froud-writing> GregTaylor: do you want to use Glossaries
[10:21] <froud-writing> gtaylor:  do you want to use Glossaries
[10:21] <froud-writing> jjesse:   do you want to use Glossaries?
[10:23] <gtaylor> froud-writing: I think it might be helpful
[10:24] <froud-writing> gtaylor: take a look at http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za, let me know if you think we can use it as a build dependancy
[10:26] <froud-writing> gtaylor: what's your docbook toochain?
[10:27] <gtaylor> froud-writing: That's a broken link for me
[10:27] <froud-writing> gtaylor: r you ok with a 4.4 dtd
[10:27] <froud-writing> oops
[10:28] <gtaylor> froud-writing: I know little about the DTD's, I've just been following the same format as the documents I tinker with.
[10:28] <froud-writing> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/
[10:28] <gtaylor> So I'm fine with anything
[10:29] <froud-writing> should work
[10:29] <gtaylor> That's an interesting project
[10:29] <froud-writing> gtaylor: this is kde stuff so kubuntu will ship html
[10:29] <froud-writing> but if we want to use xincludes then we need at least docbook 4.3 or higher
[10:30] <froud-writing> higher the better as 4.4. fixes some issues
[10:30] <gtaylor> That's fine with me. The dictionary looks interesting too. It'd be nice to have if it doesn't make things run really slow when browsing the pages.
[10:30] <froud-writing> it will only be used for build
[10:30] <froud-writing> for transform from xml 2 html
[10:31] <froud-writing> there is no need for anyone to install it on a user desktop
[10:31] <gtaylor> Then I see no reason not to use it, it looks pretty thorough
[10:31] <froud-writing> just the authors here
[10:33] <froud-writing> gtaylor: your are welcome to bring patches to the project, sen dme your username and password and I will open you a commit account
[10:33] <froud-writing> jjesse: what do you think of the abov elink
[10:33] <jjesse> the computer dictionary?
[10:33] <froud-writing> yes
[10:33] <jjesse> i like it
[10:33] <froud-writing> can you use it?
[10:34] <froud-writing> do you want glossaries
[10:34] <jjesse> i would like glossaries
[10:34] <froud-writing> ok do you know about glossentries
[10:34] <jjesse> a little bit
[10:35] <froud-writing> ok then http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Glossaries.html
[10:36] <froud-writing> gtaylor: jjesse; I will impliment it as a glossary database as descibed http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/GlossDatabase.html
[10:36] <froud-writing> jjesse: do you want to commit to the dictionary?
[10:36] <jjesse> i think so letme read more about it :)
[10:36] <jjesse> checked out svn
[10:37] <froud-writing> OK if you do send mail to me with username and password
[10:37] <froud-writing> Ok that's it for now. so I go to write that message explaining all this.
[10:55] <squinn> froud-writing, did u get my list msg?
[10:57] <froud-writing> squinn: yes that is fine
[10:58] <froud-writing> mdke: move to arrange commit account for squinn 
[10:58] <squinn> froud-writing and mdke, appreciated
[10:58] <squinn> froud-writing, only reason i asked is because i didn't get the msg
[10:59] <squinn> thats fine, i'll view via web interface
[10:59] <froud-writing> OK, but I need a second to get your account
[11:00] <froud-writing> any other commiter prepared to second me :-)
[11:00] <jjesse> am i allowed to ?
[11:01] <froud-writing> your a committer
[11:01] <jjesse> then i second it :)
[11:01] <froud-writing> if you feel its good then second the motion and I will write to enrico
[11:01] <froud-writing> thanks
[11:01] <jjesse> heading home, softball tonight have a good one
[11:02] <froud-writing> squinn: pls send me your public pgp key and your username of choice
[11:02] <squinn> froud-writing, will do
[11:02] <squinn> username is squinn 
[11:02] <squinn> pgp key is on its way
[11:03] <froud-writing> thanls
[11:03] <froud-writing> thanks
[11:04] <froud-writing> I will fwd to enrico and jerome cc you. Give elmo some time to open the account, he will message you the details when he is done
[11:04] <froud-writing> if nothing happens in one week, then let us know so we can ping him :-)
[11:05] <squinn> Alright, thank you.
[11:05] <froud-writing> squinn: was the last patch to the quick guide from you?
[11:05] <squinn> yes.
[11:05] <froud-writing> the one jeff applied
[11:05] <squinn> yes, that was me.
[11:06] <squinn> or my patch, yes.
[11:06] <froud-writing> Ok, you coul dnot know this so dont be worried
[11:06] <froud-writing> but did you look at it in yelp?
[11:07] <squinn> Yes, I did.
[11:07] <squinn> But I probably overlooked something.
[11:07] <froud-writing> Ok you mainly did this
[11:07] <froud-writing> -linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager"endterm="title-qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>, 
[11:07] <froud-writing> +linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>, 
[11:08] <froud-writing> there is a problem with that in so much that the xrefs now read wrong
[11:08] <froud-writing> blah blah Chapter 5. -----
[11:08] <squinn> oh..i see
[11:08] <mdke> ok yeah commit account for squinn is a good idea
[11:08] <froud-writing> mdke: thanks
[11:08] <mdke> froud-writing, will you be writing to the list re taking responsibility for kde user guide?
[11:08] <froud-writing> yes
[11:08] <mdke> also to clarify your position on the team?
[11:09] <froud-writing> :-) dude so long as its kde I dont see a problem, do you?
[11:09] <mdke> i have a problem with the "just visiting" thing
[11:09] <froud-writing> squinn: there is a bug in yelp
[11:09] <squinn> froud-writing, yeah, jeff alerted me on that
[11:09] <mdke> froud-writing, i have no problem with you taking on the kde user guide tho, of course I'm happy
[11:09] <froud-writing> we did suply a patch upstream before hoary release
[11:10] <froud-writing> but it was not touched
[11:10] <squinn> Ah, okay.
[11:10] <squinn> Hm.
[11:10] <froud-writing> squinn: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary3
[11:11] <mdke> squinn, btw your email just came to me afaics, not the list
[11:11] <froud-writing> [WWW]  Yelp's XRef problem
[11:11] <mdke> froud-writing, i hope you understand my point re: your position on the team
[11:11] <squinn> hm okay
[11:11] <squinn> i think froud-writing got it..
[11:11] <squinn> did ya, Sean? I'm not sure. I hit 'Reply To All'. I think?!
[11:12] <mdke> squinn, oh no sorry, i see it
[11:12] <mdke> squinn, the list software didn't send it to me because you had me in the To: box
[11:12] <mdke> my bad
[11:12] <froud-writing> squinn:  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170074
[11:12] <froud-writing> that is why it does not handle linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager"endterm="title-qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>
[11:12] <squinn> ah, alright
[11:12] <squinn> not a problem
[11:12] <squinn> somethings focking up with evolution, not list fault
[11:12] <froud-writing> squinn: upstream must fix this bug
[11:12] <squinn> i got it on gmail web interface
[11:13] <squinn> i see where you're coming from
[11:13] <froud-writing> squinn: its not a docbook bug, but a yelp bug
[11:13] <squinn> yes.
[11:13] <froud-writing> mdke: leave my position for now
[11:13] <froud-writing> mdke: its not importnat
[11:14] <squinn> froud-writing, i'm going to bump that bug
[11:14] <froud-writing> mdke: time to move on and let jerome manage it
[11:14] <froud-writing> mdke: its in community hands now
[11:14] <froud-writing> squinn: you can, but I doubt they will do it
[11:14] <mdke> froud-writing, its important for the team to know if you are going to work in the team or for yourself
[11:15] <mdke> otherwise our work will get hampered
[11:15] <froud-writing> mdke: I always work for myslef :-) no secrets there
[11:15] <squinn> froud-writing, nothing to lose -- i'll go for it
[11:15] <froud-writing> squinn: yes, but I think the maintainers wanted a better solution.
[11:15] <froud-writing> frustrating
[11:16] <froud-writing> they should accept that one until there is a better one
[11:16] <froud-writing> mdke: my traction on kde will not get in your way
[11:17] <mdke> froud-writing, your attitude will get in the way of the team
[11:17] <mdke> this "just visiting" business is incredibly counterproductive
[11:17] <froud-writing> mdke: only if you see it that way. now really, drop it and move on
[11:18] <mdke> I'm not the only person that feels that way
[11:18] <froud-writing> mdke: well I cant help that ppl have had their chance to rip into me
[11:18] <froud-writing> if I am th ebad guy, then so be it
[11:19] <froud-writing> now I would rather focus on doing
[11:19] <froud-writing> no offense intended
[11:19] <mdke> ok
[11:19] <froud-writing> if somebody has a problem with me they can say it to me or via the list
[11:19] <mdke> ok
[11:19] <mdke> i've expressed my views
[11:19] <froud-writing> I have no problem with that
[11:19] <mdke> its enough
[11:19] <froud-writing> acepted
[11:20] <mdke> but I hope you understand that I am working as hard as I can to make a group, rather than an individual-led project
[11:20] <mdke> if I fail, so be it
[11:21] <froud-writing> mdke: I understand that
[11:21] <mdke> ok i'm glad
[11:21] <froud-writing> mdke: you know there are some good things that have come of this
[11:21] <mdke> i'm sure there will be
[11:21] <mdke> they haven't come yet though
[11:22] <froud-writing> mdke: no its already happening, for the first time in a long time I am seeing people taking ownership of the project
[11:22] <froud-writing> people who were once new to the project are now getting old and they are having views that challenge my own
[11:23] <froud-writing> that's a good thing
[11:23] <froud-writing> IMHO
[11:23] <mdke> well i arrived all the participants in the project had left
[11:23] <mdke> i don't want that to happen again
[11:23] <mdke> if we create a group that takes decisions TOGETHER, that will not happen
[11:23] <froud-writing> dude most never did anything
[11:23] <froud-writing> they went to do their own things
[11:24] <froud-writing> one became a debian developer
[11:24] <froud-writing> something he always wanted
[11:24] <froud-writing> and so with each person
[11:24] <froud-writing> at last xmas time all I found was an empty svn sitting on hornbecks machine
[11:25] <mdke> you know that many left because of dissatisfaction with the project
[11:25] <froud-writing> perhaps
[11:25] <mdke> now that we are getting interest from many, we need a proper team
[11:25] <froud-writing> but they were also not committing
[11:25] <froud-writing> this group is different, they are committing
[11:26] <froud-writing> and I want to work with committers, not those that dont :-)
[11:26] <froud-writing> anyway, I have a proposal to write
[11:26] <froud-writing> mdke: I am a mixed bundle some good, mostly bad
[11:26] <froud-writing> ;-)
[11:27] <mdke> you just need discipline ;)
[11:27] <froud-writing> yes sir!
[11:28] <mdke> your work is great, but you don't inspire trust when you go it alone
[11:28] <froud-writing> I am not on a popularity contest here
[11:28] <mdke> thats not the point
[11:28] <mdke> its a team question
[11:28] <froud-writing> you and jerome have finally challenged
[11:28] <froud-writing> and that is good
[11:29] <mdke> if we have regular team meetings and follow up on the decisions made in the last meeting with mark, I'm sure that we will have a team in place, that will not depend on individuals
[11:29] <froud-writing> it shows commitment
[11:29] <mdke> i'm not challenging
[11:29] <froud-writing> dude you have and that is brilliant
[11:29] <froud-writing> you questioned me and that is good
[11:29] <mdke> there should be no sense of challenge in a proper team
[11:29] <froud-writing> dude it works
[11:29] <froud-writing> leave it there
[11:29] <mdke> bah
[11:29] <froud-writing> I am happy for your and jerome
[11:30] <froud-writing> at least I wont go unchecked ;-)
[11:30] <mdke> sure
[11:30] <mdke> but I do not want to feel that you need to be checked
[11:30] <froud-writing> can I go back to work now dad :-)
[11:30] <froud-writing> dude we all do
[11:30] <mdke> nah
[11:30] <mdke> if the team makes all decisions, it will be fine
[11:30] <mdke> regular meetings will help
[11:31] <froud-writing> mdke: I leave you to learn as I did, lets talk in about six months on this subject. I would like to hear th elessons you have learned
[11:31] <froud-writing> mdke: one tip
[11:31] <mdke> I can't believe you keep misunderstanding me and think that this is about a technical question
[11:31] <mdke> this is purely a community question for me
[11:31] <froud-writing> sometimes silence is consent
[11:32] <froud-writing> mdke: no I dont :-)
[11:32] <mdke> ok
[11:32] <mdke> btw silence is only rarely consent
[11:33] <mdke> from the legal point of view it is never consent
[11:33] <froud-writing> mdke: like me you will find that at some point you will need to make decisions because nobody else is willing to make them. Every leader has these times
[11:33] <mdke> you are not a leader
[11:33] <mdke> nor am i
[11:33] <mdke> nor is anyone on this team
[11:33] <froud-writing> Hmmm, I wonder
[11:33] <froud-writing> you have age
[11:33] <mdke> that is my whole problem
[11:33] <mdke> you think you are a leader
[11:33] <froud-writing> mdke: you are a leader, accept it
[11:33] <mdke> nope
[11:33] <mdke> i dont accept that
[11:34] <froud-writing> you may not be officially appointed, but you are a leader
[11:34] <mdke> not in this community
[11:34] <mdke> this is a team
[11:34] <froud-writing> you age and experience with the project makes you so whether you like it or not
[11:34] <mdke> or rather, it should be
[11:34] <froud-writing> and new members will look to you for guidance
[11:34] <mdke> we have different definitions of leaders
[11:34] <froud-writing> yes
[11:34] <froud-writing> we do
[11:34] <froud-writing> very
[11:34] <mdke> anyhow
[11:34] <froud-writing> :-) lets leave it at that shall we
[11:35] <mdke> this community has rules
[11:35] <mdke> i like rules
[11:35] <mdke> i respect them
[11:35] <froud-writing> hmm
[11:35] <froud-writing> I see so
[11:35] <mdke> you're a renegade :)
[11:35] <froud-writing> perhaps
[11:35] <mdke> there was a great english lawyer like you
[11:35] <froud-writing> I like the great part
[11:35] <mdke> he used to ignore the rules
[11:35] <mdke> and make his own
[11:35] <karlheg> debian/rules -j
[11:35] <froud-writing> yep
[11:35] <mdke> he was a great lawyer
[11:35] <froud-writing> make your own rules
[11:36] <froud-writing> stand by your guns
[11:36] <mdke> but what he did was wrong
[11:36] <froud-writing> and go for it
[11:36] <mdke> nope
[11:36] <froud-writing> sure we all do wrong
[11:36] <squinn> froud-writing, here's my pgp key
[11:36] <mdke> rules, in a FOSS community more than anything, are vital to the survival of the community
[11:36] <squinn> should i send the 1024 pub or the 2048 sub?
[11:36] <mdke> squinn, your public key
[11:36] <froud-writing> 1024
[11:37] <squinn> 32DAA3C3 
[11:37] <squinn> that was preceded by 1024D/
[11:37] <squinn> but i think that was irrelevent
[11:37] <froud-writing> mdke: you will learn that squinn email sean@inwords.co.za
[11:37] <mdke> i will learn what?
[11:37] <froud-writing> mdke: that there are no rules
[11:37] <mdke> ooh
[11:37] <mdke> i got patronised
[11:38] <mdke> maybe you will learn my point of view one day
[11:38] <froud-writing> if you work with rules you get boxed
[11:38] <squinn> froud-writing, email you @ sean@inwords.foo.bar?
[11:38] <squinn> i didn't feel like typing co.za*
[11:38] <mdke> squinn, email him your key
[11:38] <froud-writing> mdke: another thought
[11:38] <squinn> okay
[11:38] <froud-writing> destroy everything
[11:38] <froud-writing> build and tear it down as much as you can
[11:39] <froud-writing> if you are going to do something you must fail
[11:39] <froud-writing> the faster you fail, th emore times you fail, the faster you will suceed
[11:39] <mdke> well i will continue trying to help build a team
[11:39] <froud-writing> I know you think I am barmy right
[11:39] <mdke> i believe in building a team structure that will not need to be torn down
[11:40] <mdke> froud-writing, you ARE barmy
[11:40] <froud-writing> Hmmm, build it, break it and build it again, better each time
[11:40] <mdke> you know that
[11:40] <karlheg> Without rules, the box isn't square and won't stand.
[11:40] <mdke> yes
[11:40] <mdke> anyway, enough on this
[11:40] <froud-writing> well that's fine if you want to see the world in squares
[11:41] <mdke> froud-writing, other people's way of seeing the world is equally as valid as yours
[11:41] <karlheg> arches then?
[11:41] <karlheg> French curls?
[11:41] <karlheg> Ah!  Round tables.
[11:43] <squinn> froud-writing, sent
[11:44] <squinn> froud-writing, i'm now talking to the head of GNOME Bugzilla's YELP.
[11:44] <squinn> He's got our bug assigned, etc.
[11:46] <squinn> froud-writing, <shaunm> squinn: was fixed about six weeks ago
[11:48] <squinn> froud-writing, got some news
[11:53] <squinn> froud-writing, it is to the knowledge of gnome that the yelp problem was fixed
[11:53] <squinn> with this brand-spankin-new package
[11:53] <squinn> gnome-doc-utils 0.3.1
[11:53] <froud-writing> Ok, so now we just need to upgrade
[11:53] <froud-writing> and test it
[11:54] <squinn> right.
[11:54] <squinn> but i'm still in hoary
[11:54] <froud-writing> that's ok just upgrade yelp
[11:54] <squinn> >shaunm> squinn: btw, starting with gnome-doc-utils 0.3.1, you can just do <xref linkend="foo-id" xrefstyle="role:title"/>
 squinn: btw, starting with gnome-doc-utils 0.3.1, you can just do <xref linkend="foo-id" xrefstyle="role:title"/>
[11:55] <squinn> so put in a breezy repo?
[11:55] <froud-writing> squinn: I think it will
[11:55] <froud-writing> oh no not more gnome namespaces
[11:55] <froud-writing> Ok I am off fo rthe night. c ya
[11:59] <mdke> :/
[11:59] <squinn> join the club.
[11:59] <mdke> ok
[11:59] <squinn> mdke, should i pull the plug and go for breezy?
[12:00] <mdke> nah
[12:00] <mdke> don't worry about that stuff is my advice
[12:00] <squinn> okay
[12:00] <mdke> just concentrate of getting some content sorted
[12:00] <mdke> of/on
[12:00] <squinn> i think i may go breezy anyway though
[12:00] <squinn> with nothing to do with docteam
[12:00] <mdke> your call
[12:00] <mdke> it doesn't work much right now
[12:00] <squinn> but im not pulling trigger until im sure
[12:00] <squinn> i've noticed
[12:00] <squinn> hence why i'm holding back
[12:00] <mdke> yeah me too