[12:02] <\sh> ogra, but 1GB is not enough ;)
[12:02] <tritium> dholbach, oh, you know how it is...
[12:02] <tritium> dholbach, how are you?
[12:02] <dholbach> tritium: how is life?
[12:02] <ogra> \sh, disk or ram ?
[12:02] <\sh> ogra, ram ;)
[12:02] <ajmitch> \sh: sadly true
[12:02] <\sh> ogra, diskspace is 80gb should help for a while
[12:03] <\sh> plus a HD for OS and webspace == 40GB makes 120GB
[12:03] <ogra> so do we start the meeting ?
[12:03] <\sh> ok..meeting..
[12:03] <dholbach> yeah
[12:03] <dholbach> fire away
[12:03] <ogra> oh, its grown
[12:03] <ajmitch> ogra: please
[12:04] <ajmitch> hi dilinger 
[12:04] <ogra> StephanHermann: My idead ?
[12:04] <ogra> getting blind ?
[12:04] <dilinger> ajmitch: hiya
[12:04] <ivoks> :)
[12:04] <\sh> yeah
[12:04] <\sh> I'm old and blind
[12:04] <ogra> \sh, or is this a new apple service ?
[12:04] <dholbach> haha :)
[12:04] <\sh> ipet?
[12:04] <ogra> get your idead today 
[12:04] <\sh> iDead?
[12:05] <dholbach> 1) on the agenda is: MOTUNewPackages process - ITP handling in Debian.
[12:05] <siretart> hi wasabi_ 
[12:05] <ogra> Fill in ITP (when there is no one already), go through MOTU Review and then let it be a sponsored upload from one of our DDs @ubuntu If there is already an ITP, get in contact with the maintainer, and ask him/her to help him, at least he could become a MOTU ;)
[12:05] <wasabi_> We should have Ubuntu MOTU capes made by CafePress.
[12:05] <ogra> thats the current proposal
[12:05] <dholbach> i want to add something i recently learned about ITPs:
[12:05] <\sh> Ok, we had this discussion quite a while now
[12:05] <ajmitch> how many DDs are available for that, since it will take some reviewing time as well?
[12:06] <dholbach> if you file an itp in debian: it means: "i own the packaging attempt, and i will take care of it in debian"
[12:06] <dholbach> maybe not in those words, but closely
[12:06] <ogra> yeps
[12:06] <dilinger> ogra: if there is already an ITP, mail the BTS w/ a patch if ubuntu already has packages prepared.  there are a *lot* of ITPs where there is no activity.. at least w/ a patch in the BTS, another DD can decide to package it based on the patch
[12:06] <ivoks> so, that's a must have
[12:06] <dholbach> my personal point of view is: it's an administrative device in debian
[12:06] <ivoks> otherwise we will have conflicts
[12:06] <ogra> dilinger, is dholbach's assumption true ?
[12:06] <siretart> well, who is responsible for the package, then?
[12:06] <\sh> and this is one thing, we should handle...the sponsor DD will get the help from motu for this package, because the package is put into a team
[12:07] <dholbach> we maybe should better announce our new packages on a debian-list - maybe once a month to let them know, who they can contact to work more closely together
[12:07] <dilinger> ogra: that is correct.  you end up w/ contention situations, however; someone holds an ITP and disappears or doesn't have time to work on the package
[12:07] <ajmitch> if you don't want to file an ITP & own that package, then an RFP with a link to the ubuntu package may be more appropriate
[12:07] <dilinger> so other people end up not packaging it either, because someone else owns it
[12:07] <ogra> ajmitch, that sounds good
[12:07] <siretart> I mean, whose name will be in the maintainer field? what happens, if someone get an upload sponsored to ubuntu, but looses interest in the package or doesn't have enough time for it?
[12:07] <ajmitch> ITP=intent to package, RFP= request for package
[12:08] <ivoks> hm...
[12:08] <ivoks> and the diff is?
[12:08] <ajmitch> siretart: probably something like Ubuntu MOTU team for ubuntu uploads
[12:08] <\sh> one question to the DDs hidden in the ubuntu universe ;)
[12:08] <dilinger> (RFP w/ a patch is even better)
[12:08] <ajmitch> ivoks: RFP is asking someone else to do the work ;)
[12:08] <ivoks> ah :)
[12:08] <ajmitch> dilinger: yes, but not if it's a 10MB package, I think
[12:08] <Nafallo> dilinger++
[12:09] <siretart> ajmitch: do you think the MOTU Team would be an accaptable maintainer for debian?
[12:09] <tseng> i have mailed ITP owners directly
[12:09] <\sh> ajmitch, dilinger: how long does it take normally to get a package into debian, even for ITP or RFP
[12:09] <tseng> and offered a link to my source package
[12:09] <ivoks> maybe we could have our DD fill all ITFs
[12:09] <ivoks> and leave packaging to MOTU
[12:09] <siretart> \sh: this really depends on how quick you get a sponsor, and how quick the package is passing NEW
[12:09] <ajmitch> ivoks: then that DD is reponsible for it all, including the debian bugs
[12:09] <dholbach> the problem is: you need somebody responsible for a) bugreports, b) uploads in debian
[12:10] <dholbach> and those are problems, not just "problems" :)
[12:10] <ivoks> ajmitch: true... well... thinking at loud...
[12:10] <ajmitch> siretart: team maintenance is good, they might accept that :)
[12:10] <dilinger> \sh: it depends on how busy the ftp masters are.  i've had packages go in in under 24 hours; i've also waited months for packages, during time when NEW wasn't being processed.  currently, it doesn't take long; people are processing packages quickly
[12:10] <ogra> dholbach, but we cant do more then offering
[12:10] <dholbach> ogra: absolutely not
[12:10] <dilinger> \sh: it is a manual process, though, so it's very dependent upon available manpower
[12:10] <\sh> and a group of people with one centralized spokesman being a maintainer?
[12:10] <ogra> dholbach, the rest is up to debian
[12:11] <dholbach> ogra: but the question is, how much commitment we make
[12:11] <ogra> none
[12:11] <dholbach> ogra: if we're going to define a process
[12:11] <dholbach> this should be clarified
[12:11] <ogra> we just offer our work
[12:11] <dholbach> yeah: how about a monthly mail announcing all the new source packages and our maintainers?
[12:11] <ogra> it think if we just offer it in an RFP we are fine...
[12:12] <\sh> I mean, what's the difference between Maintainer: Stephan Hermann <sh@sourcecode.de> or Maintainer: Ubuntu-Motu-KDE-Team <ubu-motu-kde@ubuntu.com> ?
[12:12] <tseng> can we script finding rfps that match a package in ubuntu?
[12:12] <ogra> dholbach, a newsletter to debiian-devel ?
[12:12] <ivoks> hm... what's wrong will just filling ITFs, supplying patch and bringing package into ubuntu
[12:12] <siretart> dholbach: this implies that some DD gets interest in adopting the package. right?
[12:12] <tseng> or open itp's also
[12:12] <dholbach> siretart: that would be a nice side-effect yes, our intention :)
[12:12] <ogra> \sh, it doesnt matter.... it changes if your package enters debian
[12:12] <dholbach> ogra: i'm not talking about an automatic newsletter :)
[12:12] <ajmitch> tseng: easily
[12:12] <tseng> ajmitch: yes
[12:12] <siretart> \sh: responsibilty: in the first case, YOU are responsible, and in the latter, the responsibility is shared
[12:13] <tseng> do we have a volunteer to write a script that compares packages in ubuntu to open rfp and itp?
[12:13] <ogra> dholbach, why not ?
[12:13] <tseng> thats a start.
[12:13] <ajmitch> tseng: ok, I can do that
[12:13] <tseng> ajmitch++
[12:13] <ivoks> siretart: IMHO, second case is better
[12:13] <ogra> dholbach, as automated as your apt-get.org script was
[12:13] <ajmitch> I've already got part of that done
[12:13] <dholbach> do we want to have to track debian bugs for our new packages? :)
[12:13] <siretart> ivoks: for us. but I'm not sure how debian thinks about that
[12:13] <ajmitch> dholbach: if we maintain them, we have to
[12:14] <ogra> dholbach, sure, but thats what we have malone for.... 
[12:14] <tseng> dholbach: malone will be syncing them anyway
[12:14] <ivoks> siretart: for them too, they could allways get contact from team
[12:14] <ajmitch> once malone is there :)
[12:14] <ivoks> siretart: they would be foolish to demand single person
[12:14] <ivoks> siretart: but, we must insure quality
[12:15] <dilinger> ivoks: debian doesn't have problems w/ teams maintaining packages.  it's the case for plenty of packages (kernel team, for example)
[12:15] <ajmitch> and zope/plone
[12:15] <siretart> ivoks: hm. yeah, I agree, but I also heared the argument, that if a big team is responsible for many things, in effect nothing gets done
[12:15] <ivoks> dilinger: as i said, otherwise would be foolish
[12:15] <ajmitch> fyi the motu zope team got invited to join the debian team
[12:16] <ivoks> siretart: MOTU is team that does the job ;)
[12:16] <siretart> dilinger: the difference is, that the teams inside debian are staffed with DD's
[12:16] <ajmitch> all 2 of us, that is :)
[12:16] <tseng> thats the ideal situation, really
[12:16] <dilinger> siretart: not necessarily.  only about half the kernel team are DDs
[12:16] <dilinger> the rest are NMs, or about to enter NM
[12:16] <tseng> the more work you do in debian, the less we track as a chanset
[12:16] <siretart> dilinger: interesting. perhaps I'm too pessimistic
[12:17] <\sh> I mean, when MOTU as team is standing behind the packages, what is the problem? internally the packages are sorted out into motu teams
[12:18] <Unfrgiven> hi all. sorry im late. damn traffic!
[12:18] <ivoks> i support \sh
[12:18] <ivoks> :)
[12:18] <\sh> and when the QA process of motu is good enough to get a package into universe, it should be good for debian as well
[12:18] <tseng> i dont support \sh :)
[12:18] <siretart> in effect: Do we have DD's agreeing to sponsor MOTU Team uploads?
[12:18] <\sh> stop mentioning my nick it blinks here ;)
[12:18] <dholbach> siretart: it'll be hard work for them
[12:18] <ogra> \sh, ?
[12:18] <ivoks> ok \sh 
[12:18] <ajmitch> it doesn't matter, as long as there's someone to step up & do the debian work
[12:18] <ivoks> sorry \sh 
[12:19] <\sh> argl
[12:19] <dholbach> siretart: nobody should underestimate that now
[12:19] <ivoks> :)
[12:19] <siretart> dholbach: yes, I'm aware of that
[12:19] <\sh> ajmitch, so u have to be a DD to do the upload right?
[12:19] <dholbach> it'd be better to have dedicated DDs working with us on specific packages
[12:19] <dholbach> (if they're interested)
[12:19] <ajmitch> \sh: yes, just as you have to be a MOTU to upload to universe
[12:19] <ajmitch> \sh: same keyring process :)
[12:19] <\sh> ajmitch, and to become a DD is a long way.
[12:20] <ogra> dholbach, i dont think that works well
[12:20] <ajmitch> \sh: reasonably long
[12:20] <\sh> so we need already be DDs to help the teams inside motu
[12:20] <dholbach> ogra: what exactly?
[12:20] <ajmitch> I am available to help with uploads & reviewing for debian, time permitting
[12:20] <ivoks> doh..
[12:20] <ivoks> there is only few of us
[12:21] <\sh> ajmitch, but when u look onto the newpackages list, it's a hell of a lot
[12:21] <ogra> dholbach, if you have a package that belongs into a certain interest of a DD he wont be happy to suddenly have a DD-MOTU team caring for it
[12:21] <dholbach> that's not what i meant
[12:21] <ivoks> i say, fill ITP (puting a veto on package) and upload it to ubuntu
[12:21] <ogra> dholbach, just because he wassnt fast enough to package
[12:21] <dholbach> 1) we announce cool packages, 2) DD xy says i want to take care of abc in debian, 3) ...
[12:21] <ajmitch> ogra: but this is just new packages
[12:21] <\sh> ivoks, RFP
[12:21] <ivoks> debian can, but doesn't have to, upload it to debian
[12:21] <ogra> i say fill RFPs
[12:22] <ogra> and let debian care themselves for it
[12:22] <ivoks> RFP? but then we will have to wait for someone else to package it
[12:22] <\sh> ivoks, the problem for MOTU right now is, 20 people against 15000 and more packages
[12:22] <ivoks> ogra: that would produce conflict
[12:22] <ivoks> if we fill RFP and bring package to ubuntu
[12:22] <ivoks> someone else will bring it to debian
[12:22] <ivoks> and on merging we have problems
[12:22] <\sh> ivoks, so we will sync it back to ubuntu
[12:22] <ogra> ivoks, why ? we link the source package in the RFP
[12:22] <tseng> ivoks: thats the problem right now
[12:23] <tseng> ivoks: that we want to fix :)
[12:23] <tseng> or improve.
[12:23] <ajmitch> it's when they don't use the ubuntu packaging that we'd have the issues
[12:23] <ivoks> tseng: right, so filling RFP will not do the trick
[12:23] <ivoks> but, if we fill ITP
[12:23] <tseng> we will watch both, and get in touch with DDs who show interest in the package
[12:23] <\sh> i see it will be easy for us: malone -> file a new package bug -> malone will file RFP or ITP or UDP or TCP to b.d.o/wnpp and we have it
[12:24] <tseng> offer them our sources
[12:24] <ogra> yep
[12:24] <ivoks> ok...
[12:24] <dholbach> who cannot agree with ogra's suggestion?
[12:24] <tseng> thats close enough for me
[12:24] <ogra> and if dholbach is after it, even a handwritten monthly newsletter 
[12:25] <\sh> i think it's the best we have right now
[12:25] <dholbach> ogra: haha.. yeah - absolutely :)
[12:25] <ogra> :)
[12:25] <ivoks> but
[12:25] <Unfrgiven> is there any possibility of getting a team of dd's who will do sponsored uploads for MOTU members?
[12:25] <dholbach> Unfrgiven: it's hard
[12:25] <tseng> Unfrgiven: that doesnt make as much sense as sponsoring a specific package
[12:26] <dholbach> Unfrgiven: sponsoring always means reviewing as well
[12:26] <dilinger> Unfrgiven: i'd like to see a team of DDs who go through and integrate changes from derived distributions
[12:26] <Unfrgiven> dilinger: thats a good idea.
[12:26] <dilinger> Unfrgiven: not just sponsoring uploads..
[12:26] <ajmitch> that leads to the other main problem we have with debian - pushing our changes back 
[12:27] <ogra> dilinger, so would you be ok with RFPs if you were in such a team ? or would you expect more ?
[12:27] <Unfrgiven> ajmitch: agreed.
[12:27] <ivoks> RFP with source/patch
[12:27] <dilinger> ogra: RFPs would be fine.  speaking for myself, i would prefer to sponsor uploads w/ MOTU maintaining, versus taking the packages and maintaining them myself.. as long as the MOTU team was responsive to bug reports
[12:28] <dilinger> but it would have to be a team doing the sponsoring, so RFPs are a good way to start
[12:28] <dholbach> *nod*
[12:28] <ogra> dilinger, sounds good
[12:28] <Unfrgiven> dilinger: whilst that sounds good, it wouldn't be practical for most of the packages. DDs arent likely to relinquish maintainence duties easily
[12:28] <ivoks> ok, everyone agrees with RFP
[12:29] <ajmitch> Unfrgiven: but we're talking about packages not in debian, so there's no DD maintaining them yet
[12:29] <Unfrgiven> ajmitch: ah ok fair enough then.
[12:29] <ogra> Unfrgiven, lets test it.... its not written in stone yet
[12:29] <dilinger> Unfrgiven: that's *very* dependent on the DD.  you're welcome to any of my packages, i have too many :p
[12:29] <Unfrgiven> ogra: yep, you have my vote
[12:29] <Unfrgiven> btw RFP = ?
[12:30] <ajmitch> I'll write up a quick script to get the list of RFPs & ITPs & packages not yet in debian
[12:30] <ajmitch> Unfrgiven: request for package
[12:30] <ivoks> request for package
[12:30] <Unfrgiven> ajmitch: ivoks: thanks.
[12:30] <Unfrgiven> ITP? :)
[12:30] <ajmitch> I've got the packages not yet in debian part done :)
[12:30] <ajmitch> intent to package
[12:30] <\sh> Intent To Package
[12:30] <Unfrgiven> cool.
[12:30] <ivoks> packages not yet in debian = ?
[12:30] <\sh> PNYID
[12:30] <ivoks> does that exzist? :))
[12:30] <ogra>  pnyid ?
[12:31] <ivoks> egxist
 packages not yet in debian
[12:31] <ivoks> ah... english :)
[12:31] <ajmitch> ivoks: no, but I can get a list to you in a few minutes
[12:31] <ajmitch> once I update the sources list
[12:31] <ajmitch> hey schweeb 
[12:31] <schweeb> hello
[12:31] <Unfrgiven> just another thought (sorry if this has been covered already). since we already have a few DDs in Ubuntu (e.g. ajmitch, dholbach) cant they sponsor motu uploads for pnyid?
[12:32] <ivoks> ok... packages we change, we send patch do DD?
[12:32] <dholbach> Unfrgiven: i'm no dd, sorry, not yet :)
[12:32] <schweeb> I'll just lurk for a few, gotta do a severity 2 restore right now :-/
[12:32] <Unfrgiven> dholbach: doh. well i guess ajmitch can take on the burden? :P
[12:32] <dholbach> Unfrgiven: it's tough
[12:32] <\sh> Unfrgiven, sponsoring means reviewing
[12:33] <ogra> ivoks, thats another story
[12:33] <siretart> dilinger: and all your package seem quite demanding to me ;)
[12:33] <\sh> and reviewing is hard work
[12:33] <ajmitch> Unfrgiven: depends on how much you pay me ;)
[12:33] <ivoks> ogra: i know
[12:33] <ogra> ivoks, and not on the agenda :)
[12:33] <ivoks> ogra: i tought we agreed on RFP
[12:33] <schweeb> which meeting is this? motu or TB ?
[12:33] <dholbach> schweeb: motu
[12:33] <ivoks> motu
[12:33] <ogra> ivoks, for NEW packages
[12:33] <Unfrgiven> ogra: but if the package passes a motu review and is being uploaded into universe surely its good enough for debian?
[12:33] <schweeb> k
[12:33] <\sh> ok, we're ok with ogras iDea: filing RFP for new packages
[12:34] <ogra> Unfrgiven, i guess so... but i'm not debian :)
[12:34] <siretart> Unfrgiven: we cannot decide this, because we are ubuntu's, not DD's
[12:34] <ajmitch> ITP if the MOTU really wants to take it on in debian themselves
[12:34] <dilinger> siretart: yea.  timesuck :(
[12:34] <Unfrgiven> siretart: hence my suggestion to rely on ubuntu devs that are dds
[12:34] <ivoks> ogra: i tought we agreed on RFP for new packages, and just asked this totally unrelated question, so i would know for repackaging
[12:34] <ogra> ciao dilinger 
[12:34] <tseng> bye dilinger 
[12:34] <ivoks> ogra: ah, forget it :)
[12:34] <\sh> cu dilinger 
[12:34] <ivoks> dilinger: bye
[12:34] <siretart> bye dilinger 
[12:35] <Unfrgiven> dilinger: cya dude
[12:35] <dholbach> bye dilinger 
[12:35] <Nafallo> dilinger: bye
[12:35] <siretart> Unfrgiven: well, thats also possible with the current suggestion: RFP's
[12:35] <\sh> guys, please think about this: some of the structure is different in debian then in ubuntu...and to test the packages against debian we need a etch pbuilder
[12:35] <dholbach> dilinger: you seem to have quite a fan club in here :)
[12:35] <ajmitch> \sh: or a debian box
[12:35] <siretart> \sh: rather an sid pbuilder
[12:35] <ivoks> next time....
[12:35] <ogra> \sh, why ? 
[12:35] <ivoks> "dilinger: Hi, i'm dilinger, and I have a problem"
[12:35] <ajmitch> I've got a number of systems here, and use a sid chroot regularly
[12:36] <ivoks> and everybody else "hi, diliger"
[12:36] <ogra> \sh, i mean why should we test/repackage and fix it for etch ?
[12:36] <ivoks> :)
[12:36] <ogra> \sh, i'd like to leave this to debian
[12:36] <dholbach> ok... did we agree on the process yet?
[12:37] <dholbach> the one who gets a NEW package in, will file an rtp with a link to his source package in our archive?
[12:37] <ivoks> \sh: DDs will do that
[12:37] <siretart> I havn't seen a counter proposal, so I assume yes
[12:37] <ivoks> dholbach: yes
[12:37] <ogra> dholbach, yes
[12:37] <\sh> ogra, i don't mind to give a package to debian which is not building on there systems
[12:37] <ajmitch> dholbach: RFP in general, ITP is the MOTU is really keen
[12:37] <dholbach> yes... rfp
[12:37] <\sh> dholbach, aggreed
[12:37] <dholbach> excellent, that's a majority - shall we proceed?
[12:37] <ogra> \sh, if they want it, they can take it
[12:37] <tseng> dholbach: lets go!
[12:37] <ivoks> dholbach: YES :)
[12:37] <ogra> yep
[12:37] <ajmitch> proceed, please.. :)
[12:38] <dholbach> ROCK
[12:38] <dholbach> I'll edit MOTUNewPackagesPolicy in the mean time
[12:38] <ogra> so new teams, that was yours dholbach 
[12:38] <siretart> if a MOTU is agreeing taking over maintenance for debian for that package, he can rename the RFP to an ITP anyway. so: next ;)
[12:38] <ajmitch> siretart: sure, topic closed ;)
[12:38] <siretart> :)
[12:39] <dholbach> i was trying to think of ways to have new teams (and they seem to pop up quite often these days) working close with the debian counterparts - how can we get going?
[12:39] <siretart> dholbach: can you give an example?
[12:39] <\sh> centralized communication  between the motu teams and debian teams
[12:39] <dholbach> \sh: had some ideas for this
[12:40] <\sh> so one email address for one motu team, the same for debian ( if it's not already)
[12:40] <dholbach> siretart: the kde team, the upcoming gnome team, the python team, the mono team is already ROCKING, the upcoming games team
[12:40] <dholbach> do you think we should advertise them on the debian lists as well?
[12:40] <wasabi_> The Java team is rocking too!
[12:40] <schweeb> dholbach: could make it a required step to communicate with the debian counterparts (or at least try to) for when you upload a different version number of a package, or make a significant patch/fix
[12:40] <wasabi_> Woo hoo!
[12:41] <dholbach> wasabi_: yeah!
[12:41] <schweeb> oh, you're talking about the team stuff, n/m
[12:41] <ajmitch> or if the teams actually become one, have a common archive for packaging (eg alioth)
[12:41] <\sh> after all, there should be a teamlead who can cover most of the "governance" work, e.g. which software has more prio then other blabla
[12:42] <ogra> \sh, a SPOC ?
[12:42] <\sh> SPOC?
[12:42] <Unfrgiven> ogra: SPOC?
[12:42] <\sh> yeah
[12:42] <\sh> noc spoc
[12:42] <dholbach> single point of contact
[12:42] <ivoks> yes!
[12:42] <ogra> \sh, i'd like to see that as well :)
[12:42] <ivoks> :)
[12:43] <\sh> ok..let me explain one thing :)
[12:43] <ogra> siretart, me neither, but its on the agenda....
[12:43] <ivoks> \sh: elaborate :)
[12:43] <ajmitch> siretart: the near-complete lack of coordination between debian & ubuntu on some packages "_
[12:43] <wasabi_> Coordinating with Debian is hard.
[12:43] <ogra> siretart, we only have 21 MOTUs yet, its to early for team processes...
[12:44] <Unfrgiven> ogra: 22 next week hopefully :)
[12:44] <siretart> ajmitch: do you have an example of a concrete package?
[12:44] <ogra> ajmitch, nope, that was the last topic
[12:44] <\sh> when a team is getting bigger, and you don't have a SPOC ;) everybody can speak for a team, and then we have something like "quasselbude" in germany in the beginning of the 20th century
[12:44] <ivoks> \sh: or debian these days :)
[12:44] <ogra> \sh, we have a process for tht
[12:44] <ogra> \sh, the first approved MOTU who enters a team leads it... 
[12:44] <ajmitch> ogra: I thought we were talking about teams & how they can coordinate with existing debian teams?
[12:45] <dholbach> ajmitch: yes
[12:45] <ajmitch> which is how I got lumped as zope team lead
[12:45] <ogra> since a team can consist of a lot of other eople
[12:45] <\sh> ogra, i didn't know 
[12:45] <\sh> then forget about what I said ;)
[12:45] <ogra> dholbach, oh, there are more then 3 teams in debian ?
[12:45] <dholbach> ogra: ?
[12:46] <ogra> dholbach, i thought there is only kernel, gnome and KDE for now... and the rest is individually maintained
[12:46] <dholbach> ogra:  there are loads of teams
[12:46] <ogra> oh...
[12:46] <ajmitch> plenty of teams around
[12:46] <dholbach> parted team, common lisp team, vim team, ...
[12:46] <ogra> i wasnt aare
[12:46] <ajmitch> lots of them are on alioth
[12:46] <dholbach> x team
[12:46] <ajmitch> mono team, zope team
[12:47] <siretart> release team (scnr)
[12:47] <ogra> ok ok
[12:47] <dholbach> my question was merely, how can we improve the situation there? how can we get teams going? and do we want to announce each and every single bit like team meetings/plans to the debian lists?
[12:48] <Unfrgiven> dholbach: there might be some backlash against us advertising our meetings on debian-devel
[12:48] <ogra> dholbach, they would be annoyed very soon i guess
[12:48] <schweeb> ^^^
[12:48] <schweeb> I have an idea
[12:48] <\sh> when i comes to a community work between both distris then yes, if it's only a internal meeting then no
[12:48] <schweeb> what's the possibility of each team getting a mailing list
[12:48] <schweeb> and asking the debian devs to subscribe
[12:49] <schweeb> so then, if they're interested, they've voluntarily subscribed
[12:49] <ogra> schweeb, NO !
[12:49] <schweeb> lol
[12:49] <ivoks> suicide
[12:49] <ivoks> :)
[12:49] <dholbach> Unfrgiven, ogra: given the load of CRACK on all the mailing lists, this would be important bits and at least we could try
[12:49] <schweeb> it's the best way for them to be plugged in, yet be voluntarily plugged in
[12:49] <dholbach> flaming teams for willing to do good work together is ... you know ... idiotic
[12:50] <dholbach> and as many of you said before: we can only offer
[12:50] <siretart> hm. how many teams in ubuntu do we have atm which have a debian counterpart?
[12:50] <ivoks> well... scheduled posts?
[12:50] <dholbach> and offering should be in prominent places
[12:50] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTeams
[12:51] <dholbach> MOTUTeams
[12:51] <ogra> dholbach, ubuntu-devel, i dont see any need for 50 mailing lists... or how many teams we'll ever have
[12:51] <dholbach> ogra: you won't have seen me advertising additional mailing lists today
[12:51] <\sh> oh yes
[12:51] <\sh> sorry
[12:51] <ajmitch> ogra: there will still have to be a place for team discussion that 95% of u-d people don't care about :)
[12:52] <siretart> \sh: I'm counting 3 on that list: InstallerTeam, KernelTeam and Kubuntu
[12:52] <\sh> siretart, nono
[12:52] <schweeb> team forums maybe?
[12:52] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUTeams maybe?
[12:52] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUTeams
[12:52] <\sh> there is a bug on the wiki
[12:52] <ogra> ajmitch, so whats the problem... ubuntu-devel is very low traffic... and if i actually look at other lists we have, i really doubt they are needed....
[12:52] <siretart> ah
[12:53] <ogra> (i have -hardened in mind for  example)
[12:53] <dholbach> ogra: I'm not talking about any new mailing list
[12:54] <dholbach> i'm talking about making announcements and reaching hands out, coordinating
[12:54] <\sh> guys, who will make the first contact with the debian counterpart? so if this is settled, they can decide how the communication is done
[12:54] <dholbach> and people who are annoyed about an announcement like that should be silently ignored
[12:54] <ivoks> JanC_: me too :)
[12:55] <ivoks> i think every team should post a message of help offering
[12:55] <siretart> hm. I think we could define some template suggesting how the Ubuntu team should present themselves: important point should be a Team Lead, goals for ubuntu and current problems and plans. with that presentation, it should be more easy for the debian counterpart to get in contact with the team in a sensible manner
[12:56] <ivoks> then evey team could decide how to communicate
[12:56] <ajmitch> ivoks: yes, but maybe just to the debian team if there is one, not to the whole debian world
[12:56] <ivoks> ajmitch: maybe
[12:56] <dholbach> make it BIG! :)
[12:56] <ivoks> yes
[12:56] <ivoks> one message with all details
[12:57] <ivoks> why, who, plans, etc...
[12:57] <dholbach> yeah
[12:57] <ivoks> template is needed for that
[12:57] <\sh> some rocking sound as multimedia introduction, so everybody can hear it ;)
[12:57] <ivoks> :)
[12:57] <ivoks> \sh: specialy for kernel team :)
[12:58] <ajmitch> for me, it was the other way round.. the debian team contacted me :)
[12:58] <dholbach> add suggestions to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUTeamHowto :)
[12:58] <ogra> dholbach dancing naked in a blurry background behind the scrolling text and some funny music ? 
[12:59] <ivoks> not to fancy message
[12:59] <dholbach> yeah - that sounds brilliant
[12:59] <dholbach> ;-)
[12:59] <ivoks> simple, straightforward
[12:59] <ogra> or would that scare debian away ?
[12:59] <\sh> sound: queen we will rock you -> font family: MS comic -> font-size 72pt: text: we want you :)
[12:59] <ajmitch> ogra: sorry, but it would scare me away
[12:59] <ajmitch> ;)
[12:59] <siretart> \sh: waaaaah! :)
[12:59] <\sh> and actually: "winning web award" ,-)
[12:59] <ogra> ajmitch, me too, but i'm no DD ;)
[01:00] <ivoks> guy, it's 1AM, let
[01:00] <ivoks> let's get back to buissness
[01:00] <ajmitch> ok ok
[01:00] <ogra> ok, who does a template ?
[01:01] <ivoks> hm...
[01:01] <\sh> template ? video cam?
[01:01] <ivoks> well i could do a pretemplate
[01:01] <ogra> \sh, joking
[01:01] <dholbach> what did we agree on?
[01:01] <ogra> dholbach, a template ?
[01:01] <ivoks> we didn't
[01:01] <\sh> document template for wiki pages
[01:01] <ivoks> no
[01:01] <\sh> for motu teams
[01:01] <ogra> no
[01:01] <ivoks> template for a message
[01:01] <Nafallo> dholbach: you dancing naked? :-)
[01:01] <ogra> for messages
[01:02] <dholbach> we should add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUTeamHowto
[01:02] <ogra> yep
[01:02] <\sh> ok.
[01:02] <ivoks> for debian teams, explaining who we are, what we want to do and how can we help
[01:02] <ogra> ok, ivoks makes a first template and puts it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUTeamHowto ??
[01:02] <ivoks> ogra: consider it done
[01:02] <dholbach> excellent
[01:02] <ogra> thanks :)
[01:02] <ivoks> any special format? :) .doc or .xls? :)
[01:03] <ogra> binary please
[01:03] <ivoks> ok.. 0 and 1 it is
[01:03] <Unfrgiven> do we know which teams weare going to announce?
[01:04] <ogra> Unfrgiven, yes, all that have mmbers :)
[01:04] <dholbach> we should have preliminary team leads
[01:04] <ogra> members even
[01:04] <dholbach> which attract new members and get going
[01:04] <tseng> bwar no :(
[01:04] <Unfrgiven> ogra: which is like 3 right now isnt it?
[01:04] <ivoks> yes, leaders should be people we trust most
[01:04] <tseng> teams and leads are such crack
[01:04] <tseng> im tired of that stuff from gentoo
[01:04] <ivoks> for example, orga, dholbach, \sh, tseng etc..
[01:04] <tseng> it was so pain.
[01:04] <ogra> and remember !! a team may not only iclude MOTUs
[01:05] <dholbach> tseng: "a contact"
[01:05] <\sh> tseng, cause it was wrong in gentoo
[01:05] <tseng> \sh: yes :)
[01:05] <ogra> tseng, someone who talks for the team ....
[01:05] <dholbach> tseng: somebody who does the uploads/announcements :)
[01:05] <\sh> tseng, but we're not gentoo :)
[01:05] <dholbach> tseng: somebody who does the work ;)
[01:05] <tseng> haha
[01:06] <dholbach> so who is the preliminary team lead for MOTU...?
[01:06] <\sh> ivoks, u forgot ivoks :)
[01:06] <dholbach> ;)
[01:06] <ivoks> \sh: no, i didn't :)
[01:06] <dholbach> ok... shall we proceed?
[01:06] <\sh> MOTU* : ogra and dholbach :)
[01:06] <dholbach> i have to get up in 6 hours again :)
[01:06] <\sh> motukde: riddell ;)
[01:06] <ogra> dholbach, so we have plenty of time :)
[01:06] <ivoks> \sh: i don't have upload rights, so I can't be teamspeeker
[01:06] <\sh> ok...++ for me
[01:06] <\sh> ivoks, u r motu thats it :)
[01:06] <\sh> ok..proceed?
[01:07] <ogra> ivoks, you can speak, cant you ?
[01:07] <ivoks> ogra: well, acctually...
[01:07] <ogra> ok, \sh do you want to give us a status about CXX ?
[01:07] <ivoks> i can :) but, i didn't decide for a team for now
[01:07] <ogra> \sh, i think you were the most active of us all
[01:08] <Unfrgiven> i'd just like to add that \sh has been amazing for the CXX transition... ++\sh
[01:08] <\sh> ok...short story: we're just finished :) now, we're all here (most of them) and I need a short status of the outstanding packages...
[01:08] <ogra> (and deserve all the flowers you get for it)
[01:08] <ajmitch_> irssi acting like crap again :(
[01:08] <dholbach> yeah... absolutely - i was impressed - he even beat the shit out of the buildds on the weekend!
[01:08] <ogra> yeah
[01:08] <\sh> doko asked be today again ;)
[01:08] <\sh> s/be/me/
[01:09] <ivoks> ok... shoot
[01:09] <\sh> so we have some packages left on the frozenapps, some are showstoppers...and we have to decide
[01:09] <Unfrgiven> \sh: gmetadom still has build errors which i need to resolve. ace needs a patch which i'll look into as well
[01:09] <ivoks> Unfrgiven: check fedora's patches
[01:09] <ivoks> Unfrgiven: they did transition
[01:09] <Unfrgiven> ivoks: good thinking. ill do that
[01:09] <ivoks> Unfrgiven: maybe they have something you are looking for
[01:10] <\sh> ok I think we should go and clean this CxxList and put the already finished packages on another page
[01:10] <Unfrgiven> gmetadom and ace are the only two pacakges i have left.
[01:10] <ajmitch_> \sh: good idea, I know I
[01:11] <ajmitch_> 've got a few patches outstanding
[01:11] <ajmitch_> and I have to check on clanlib to get the build fixed
[01:12] <ivoks> \sh: all i started, i finished, only one package left pending
[01:12] <\sh> I know there are some packages which are not easy, (at least I have one of it) but if it's not patchable/fixable from us, we should inform upstream, or just check upstream, and if there is no fix, we should leave it, or try to compile it with gcc-3.4 or really leave it
[01:12] <\sh> ivoks, uploaded?
[01:13] <ivoks> \sh: i can't upload
[01:13] <ivoks> \sh: i had one typo, fixed it
[01:13] <\sh> ivoks, who did upload? :) 
[01:13] <ivoks> \sh: you did some, doko did some
[01:13] <ogra> \sh, compile with gcc-3.4, else we'll have users complaining
[01:13] <\sh> ok
[01:13] <\sh> ogra, even this doesn't help sometimes :(
[01:14] <ivoks> \sh: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11818
[01:14] <\sh> ogra, actually I saw even fedora throwing it out and waiting for patches from upstream
[01:14] <ogra> \sh, then drop it.... but if we can get it in anyhow i wouldnt....
[01:14] <\sh> ogra, that's what I said
[01:14] <ogra> :)
[01:14] <ajmitch_> I need to get a list of what packages I've still got to work on :)
[01:15] <\sh> ajmitch, i didn't change any packages from you ;)
[01:15] <\sh> doko: ping u around?
[01:16] <\sh> ok...so everybody who has packages ready but can't upload, send me a mail with the bugzilla entries
[01:16] <ivoks> ok
[01:17] <\sh> if anybody needs some help, please bug in #u-motu or #u-devel/#u-toolchain ;)
[01:17] <ivoks> i need help :)
[01:17] <\sh> and if anybody sees danielN around, hold him and tell him he has to fix bugs ;)
[01:17] <ivoks> long meeting :)
[01:18] <dholbach> ivoks: you call this long? ;)
[01:18] <\sh> I'm done...and I want this cxx stuff finished at least in the middle of the next week
[01:18] <dholbach> !
[01:18] <dholbach> :)
[01:18] <ivoks> dholbach: well, longer than others i was in
[01:18] <ivoks> \sh: cxx libs or everything?
[01:18] <\sh> what we done , was amazing :)
[01:18] <ogra> ok, thanks all, lets clos this meeting if nobody has other business
[01:19] <\sh> ivoks, cxx libs 
[01:19] <ogra> close even
[01:19] <\sh> ivoks, most of the applications are on the buildd
[01:19] <ivoks> i have one question
[01:19] <\sh> waiting
[01:19] <dholbach> next meeting?
[01:19] <\sh> 4 weeks?
[01:19] <ogra> oh, yes
[01:19] <ogra> yeps
[01:19] <ivoks> why does mako and elmo ignores me? :)
[01:19] <ivoks> do even
[01:19] <siretart> they don't. they are 'just' busy
[01:20] <Unfrgiven> ivoks: too busy for u :P
[01:20] <\sh> mako is at linuxtag next week
[01:20] <ivoks> hehe ok
[01:20] <elmo> ivoks: mako said he asked you for a signed CoC
[01:20] <\sh> hahahaha
[01:20] <ivoks> elmo: hi i have sent it
[01:20] <\sh> I new it
[01:20] <\sh> knew even
[01:20] <ivoks> two times
[01:21] <schweeb> yea, he never got back to me as to whether the CoC I had sent was good
[01:21] <ogra> 2005-07-19 ? 
[01:21] <ogra> at which time ?
[01:21] <elmo> ivoks: to what address?
[01:21] <ivoks> elmo: mako@ubuntu.com IIRC
[01:21] <ivoks> elmo: i just replyed
[01:22] <ogra> guys, can we agree on a time, before everybody leaves ?
[01:22] <ivoks> i can check,,,
[01:22] <ivoks> ogra: sure
[01:22] <elmo> ivoks: please reply again and cc me, so I can check the mailserver logs
[01:22] <ivoks> ok
[01:23] <\sh> 20th of july?
[01:23] <Unfrgiven> ogra: 2200UTC is easiest for me to make
[01:23] <Unfrgiven> and 20th July sounds fine
[01:23] <\sh> which timezone is not covered ?
[01:23] <ogra> hmm
[01:23] <siretart> any objections to hold the meeting at 2100UTC?
[01:24] <dholbach> not from me
[01:24] <schweeb> what time is it right now, UTC?
[01:24] <thom> 11:24
[01:24] <ogra> schweeb, date -u
[01:24] <thom> date -u
[01:24] <\sh> 23:24
[01:24] <\sh> utc
[01:24] <Unfrgiven> siretart: i wont be able to make that. cuz its 7am for me and i cant be there from home as i have to leave for work. and getting to work at 7am is not possible
[01:24] <schweeb> should be good for most people in the US, except many may be at work, or just getting out
[01:24] <dholbach> hey thom 
[01:25] <ivoks> elmo: if it helps:
[01:25] <thom> hey dude
[01:25] <tritium> ogra, I won't be present, but 2 days after the next meeting, I'll be free from my academic obligations finally :)
[01:25] <dholbach> thom: long time no see :)
[01:25] <ogra> yay
[01:25] <ivoks> elmo: Jun  8 21:37:32 master postfix/smtp[26528] : 24424E6A48: to=<mako@ubuntu.com>,  relay=fiordland.warthogs.hbd.com[82.211.81.145] , delay=1, status=sent (250 Ok: queued as 04CB8B683A1)
[01:25] <siretart> Unfrgiven: ok. was just a question/suggestion..
[01:25] <\sh> i think once in a month we can do this 22utc meeting?
[01:26] <ogra> sure, i have no problems with either time
[01:26] <\sh> ogra, u don't sleep at all;)
[01:26] <dholbach> :)
[01:26] <ogra> at the end of the month ;)
[01:27] <thom> dholbach: indeed. how's the thesis going? all done now?
[01:27] <\sh> ogra: oh...sherif is married ;)
[01:27] <ogra> wow
[01:27] <dholbach> thom: i wish i could say that
[01:27] <ogra> \sh, send him my congrats :)
[01:27] <\sh> ogra, he came back this evening :) 
[01:27] <dholbach> thom: i'm VERY busy, but i'll have to hand it in august, 18th, i'll somehow make it ;)
[01:27] <\sh> ok..20th July 22:00 UTC?
[01:28] <thom> dholbach: heh. just so long as you avoid motu till then? ;-)
[01:28] <Unfrgiven> \sh: im fine with that
[01:28] <dholbach> thom: the guys already had to live without me
[01:28] <\sh> any cons?
[01:29] <dholbach> thom: how are you?
[01:29] <ogra> \sh, i just added it to the new agenda ;)
[01:29] <dholbach> ogra: excellent!
[01:29] <\sh> ogra, thx :)
[01:29] <thom> dholbach: melthing
[01:29] <thom> uh, melting
[01:29] <ogra> i'll write the minutes and send them to the list the next days....
[01:29] <dholbach> meeting closed - we did it! :)
[01:29] <\sh> so..gentlemen good night, good morning, good afternoon whereever you are :) I'm off to bed now :)
[01:29] <dholbach> good night \sh 
[01:29] <thom> otherwise pretty good
[01:29] <ogra> ciao \sh 
[01:29] <dholbach> thank you, ogra 
[01:30] <\sh> thx dholbach :)
[01:30] <ogra> yes thanks everybody
[01:30] <\sh> cu ogra :) and sign my package :)
[01:30] <dholbach> thom: i wonder what my next appartment will be like, but that'll be in september :)
[01:30] <ogra> \sh, i looked at it
[01:30] <ogra> \sh, its fine ... go for an upload...
[01:30] <tseng> sorry i had dinner
[01:30] <ivoks> night all
[01:30] <dholbach> night ivoks 
[01:30] <tritium> night ivoks 
[01:30] <dholbach> i'll be off to bed now, too
[01:30] <ogra> ciao ivoks dholbach 
[01:30] <tritium> good night, dholbach.
[01:30] <ajmitch_> bye dholbach, ivoks, \sh 
[01:31] <tritium> Bye all.  Like dholbach, I have a thesis to write.  Thanks for being understanding about my unavailability until July 22.
[01:31] <ivoks> yeah
[01:31] <dholbach> tritium: everybody understands
[01:31] <ivoks> i'll be unavaliable too
[01:31] <tritium> And I am very appreciate of that, all :)
[01:31] <ivoks> lot's of exams next 2-3 weeks
[01:32] <tseng> see all you kids after schools out
[01:32] <tseng> now to sleep with you
[01:32] <ivoks> :)
[01:32] <tritium> good night :)
[01:34] <siretart> ok, /me will leave to. gn8 folks!
[01:36] <dholbach> bye everyone
[01:46] <Mez> where's the usual pre-meeting debate?
[01:47] <ogra> mako, already in germany ?
[01:47] <Mez> his host says he isnt
[01:47] <jsgotangco> heh
[01:47] <jsgotangco> hi
[01:47] <ogra> Mez, his host is a server at home :)
[01:47] <Mez> ah ... BNC :P
[01:49] <mako> i'm not in germany yet
[01:49] <mako> it's quite early here
[01:49] <ogra> ah
[01:49] <mako> i leave tomorrow
[01:49] <ogra> its a dry and warm afternoon here
[01:50] <mako> quite the same here actually
[01:50] <jsgotangco> im getting hungry for dinner :)
[01:50] <mako> alright.. gonna make coffee
[01:50] <jsgotangco> gyaahh
[01:52] <ivoks> hi all
[01:55] <Mez> hey ivoks
[01:56] <squinn> I'm here.
[01:56] <squinn> G'morning, Jerome, Benjamin
[01:56] <ivoks> hi Mez mako squinn jsgotangco ogra ;)
[01:56] <ivoks> i'm repeating my self :)
[01:56] <squinn> I just got up [read: had mom wake me up] 
[01:57] <Mez> lol
[01:57] <squinn> Hey, ivoks.
[01:57] <Mez> hey sequinn
[01:57] <squinn> Hey Martin.
[01:57] <Mez> :P
[01:57] <jsgotangco> morning all (rather evening here)
[01:57] <Mez> I prefer MEz
[01:57] <Mez> afternoon here
[01:57] <ivoks> jsgotangco: here is 2PM :)
[01:57] <squinn> Hey Mez*
[01:57] <squinn> I'm the only one who's in morning, I think*
[01:57] <jsgotangco> i wish it was 2pm here as well maybe i gotta move
[01:57] <jsgotangco> squinn, mako's in NY
[01:58] <squinn> mako, aren't you at LinuxTag today though?
[01:58] <mako> i'm not at linuxtag yet
[01:58] <mako> i leave tomorrow
[01:58] <squinn> oh, right, starts tomorrow
[01:58] <\sh> morning
[01:59] <ivoks> \sh fabbione 
[01:59] <Mez> I'm ssurprised Amaranth isnt here tyet
[01:59] <ivoks> there are few seconds left :)
[02:00] <ivoks> Tue Jun 21 12:00:46 UTC 2005
[02:00] <Mez> -mako- TIME Tue Jun 21 08:10:20 2005
[02:01] <squinn> I've got eight -- even.
[02:01] <ivoks>  /exec -o date --utc
[02:01] <jsgotangco> hi henrik
[02:02] <hno73> jsgotangco: hi :)
[02:02] <mako> Mez: i think your clock is fast
[02:02] <mako> Mez: 8-10 minutes
[02:02] <ivoks> hehe
[02:02] <mako> let me find the rest of the CC
[02:02] <Mez> mako - I did a ctcp time on you :D
[02:03] <Mez> It's your closck thats fast
[02:03] <ivoks> Mez: it's 08:03
[02:03] <sabdfl> hi all
[02:03] <mako> Mez: yes, my clock *is* fast :)
[02:03] <Mez> I know
[02:03] <ivoks> hi
[02:03] <Mez> Tue Jun 21 12:03:51 UTC 2005
[02:03] <mako> elmo: ?
[02:04] <dholbach> hi
[02:04] <Mez> but I was pasting makpo's time output seeing as he's CC
[02:04] <ogra> hey sabdfl 
[02:04] <squinn> morning mark
[02:04] <elmo> mako: .
[02:04] <ogra> elmo, so did you get some sleep ?
[02:04] <mako> ok, that's the council
[02:04] <fabbione> hi guys
[02:04] <jsgotangco> dholbach!
[02:04] <jsgotangco> silbs, hi
[02:04] <dholbach> jsgotangco: hey jerome :)
[02:04] <Mez> mako, wo's the coucil (nicknames ?)
[02:05] <Mez> I've never been sure:d
[02:05] <ogra> Mez, Kamion sabdfl elmo mako
[02:05] <ogra> did i miss someone ?
[02:05] <mako> alright, everyone here should say their names for hte record/log/writeup
[02:05] <dholbach> DanielHolbach
[02:05] <ogra> is Oliver Grawert
[02:05] <sabdfl> Mark Shuttleworth
[02:05] <squinn> <--- Sean D. Quinn [Spectator] 
[02:05] <dholbach> shawarma: hey sren :)
[02:05] <fabbione> Fabio M. Di Nitto
[02:06] <chmj> Charles Majola 
[02:06] <zul> Chuck Short
[02:06] <shawarma> dholbach: Hey there. :-)
[02:06] <Treenaks> Martijn van de Streek
[02:06] <shawarma> If I suddenly go missing it's problaby just another lightning that's knocked out my net.. :-(
[02:06] <elmo> James Troup
[02:07] <mako> alright
[02:07] <mako> the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[02:07] <mako> reload as i removed a few old items that had snuck in
[02:07] <squinn> I noticed that, mako.
[02:07] <sabdfl> do we have anyone here from the docteam?
[02:07] <jsgotangco> ooppss
[02:07] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:07] <ogra> jsgotangco, 
[02:07] <jsgotangco> Jerome Gotangco
[02:07] <sabdfl> hiya
[02:07] <Mez> shouldnt MarekSpruell be in previous meetings2 ?
[02:07] <jsgotangco> sorry
[02:08] <sabdfl> ok
[02:08] <squinn> Mark, hi. I'm from DocTeam. Jerome and I.
[02:08] <mako> Mez: yes
[02:08] <Mez> :P
[02:08] <jsgotangco> I serve as docteam secretary for now
[02:08] <dholbach> mako: same for SvenHerzberg, herzi is not on freenode
[02:09] <ogra> dholbach, he was around today...
[02:09] <mako> smurfix: you around?
[02:09] <jsgotangco> oh yeah
[02:10] <mako> smurfix: any locoteam activity to report?
[02:10] <mako> anyone here from a new loco that we haven't met yet?
[02:10] <squinn> I'm thinking about starting a LoCo here.
[02:10] <shawarma> So am I.
[02:10] <mako> where are you guys?
[02:10] <shawarma> That's in Denmark, btw.
[02:11] <squinn> mako, GO Area
[02:11] <squinn> Greater Orlando*
[02:11] <squinn> Florida, USA
[02:11] <jsgotangco> LoCo team Philippine side news: we just had our first get-together last saturday :)
[02:11] <squinn> I finally came in contact with a few LUGs, so I can see who's running Ubuntu, pass out CDs at breezy release, etc.
[02:11] <mako> jsgotangco: how did it go?
[02:12] <mako> squinn: great!
[02:12] <jsgotangco> dude, we drank so much coffee we were all stoned
[02:12] <sabdfl> jsgotangco: rockin
[02:12] <jsgotangco> we're sponsoring SFD over here in Sept
[02:12] <sabdfl> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/ubuntumembers/+members
[02:12] <mako> squinn, shawarma: should try to find a few more people to sort of get critical mass for a local community team :)
[02:12] <sabdfl> i'd like to start keeping track of membership requests in Launchpad
[02:12] <squinn> mako, and/or convert a few friends without them knowing it
[02:13] <Mez> mako: do we want a critical mass for loco's then they'll implode and wont exist
[02:13] <sabdfl> your login on this site is the same as wiki / website
[02:13] <shawarma> mako: Sure thing. I'll start thinking about that.
[02:13] <dholbach> sabdfl: that's good news - and it'll be more up-to-date than http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMembers :)
[02:13] <sabdfl> yes
[02:13] <jsgotangco> oohh..3 are approved now :)
[02:13] <hno73> shawarma: are you far from Copenhagen?
[02:13] <mako> shawarma, squinn: you can coordinate with smurfix 
[02:13] <Seveas> sorry i'm late :)
[02:13] <shawarma> hno73: Quite. The opposite end of the country.
[02:13] <\sh> hmm...I can't add myself ;)
[02:14] <ogra> \sh, why not ?
[02:14] <mako> sabdfl: is there anything to it on my side or is it all self-explanatory?
[02:14] <squinn> Because I mean, I've got a few friends who have at least gone a little open-source (I've gotten them to use Firefox in Win32).
[02:14] <sabdfl> far from it, unfortunately
[02:14] <hno73> Ah, so cycling distance then :)
[02:14] <sabdfl> definitely in need of UI love
[02:14] <squinn> But, at my age, it's hard to really convert that many teens to use Linux.
[02:14] <shawarma> hno73: Not likely. :-D
[02:14] <squinn> Dennis, no worries.
[02:14] <shawarma> hno73: Almost 5 hours by train.
[02:14] <\sh> ogra, i don't have the permissions ;)
[02:14] <ogra> squinn, so convert the mature people then :)
[02:15] <sabdfl> how, for instance, does someone sign up to a team?
[02:15] <sabdfl> oww
[02:15] <squinn> ogra, they're more confused.
[02:15] <\sh> ahhhh....
[02:15] <mako> ah, ok
[02:15] <squinn> stub your toe, sabdfl?
[02:15] <sabdfl> somewhat
[02:15] <mako> well... speaking of members
[02:15] <mako> we have some new member requests to review
[02:16] <sabdfl> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/ubuntumembers/+join
[02:16] <sabdfl> could folks who would like to become members please visit that url
[02:16] <jsgotangco> oh i forgot i already applied on that
[02:16] <\sh> sabdfl, first of all i have to enter my gpg key then sign again the coc?
[02:16] <Treenaks> sabdfl: how about current members? I'm not on there, for example
[02:16] <shawarma> sabdfl: Done.
[02:16] <ogra> \sh, nah, you already signed and are approved
[02:17] <mako> Treenaks: the vast majority of people are not
[02:17] <\sh> ogra, but in my members area, there is a new field..gpg key and signed coc
[02:17] <Treenaks> mako: good point
[02:17] <jsgotangco> \sh, i don't think it doesnt work yet, i tried last night
[02:17] <jsgotangco> wait
[02:17] <ogra> Treenaks, you were asked to subscribe thete in the last CC
[02:17] <jsgotangco> wrong english
[02:17] <ogra> there
[02:18] <Treenaks> ogra: I wasn't there
[02:18] <ogra> Treenaks, so do it now ;)
[02:18] <Treenaks> or no
[02:18] <Treenaks> sorry
[02:18] <Seveas> Treenaks, there is always the summary :)
[02:18] <mako> sabdfl: are you the contact for getting this organized/set-up/into use
[02:18] <mako> sabdfl: i've got a good chunk of data on membership and ubuntites to help get in there
[02:19] <mako> we mentioned this last time but i never found out who i should be working with to get this set up
[02:20] <sabdfl> it should just work:
[02:20] <sabdfl>  - folks who want to go to join, go to the url I gave above
[02:20] <Seveas> by the way: why is the launchpad favicon a duck..?
[02:20] <sabdfl>  - the CC can then approve or defer any application
[02:20] <mako> sabdfl: ok, so only for new members
[02:20] <\sh> this is confusing me ;)
[02:20] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:20] <sabdfl> seveas - inside joke, hasn't been changed to anything else yet, artistic contributions welcome :-)
[02:20] <ivoks> :)
[02:20] <jsgotangco> im doing it anyway
[02:20] <sabdfl> mako: will do the same for maintainers too
[02:21] <Seveas> sabdfl, ok :)
[02:21] <mako> sabdfl: ubuntites?
[02:21] <sabdfl> but that has the extra issue of which components they can upload to 
[02:21] <sabdfl> mako: check with celso, he's handling the ubuntites bit
[02:21] <mako> alright
[02:21] <mako> easy enough
[02:21] <mako> so, maybe we can move on to look at new member applications.. :)
[02:21] <jsgotangco> great
[02:22] <\sh> so only "press join" and the rest is done by mako?
[02:22] <Seveas> \sh, yes
[02:22] <Seveas> (in theory ;))
[02:22] <mako> Stacy Webb
[02:22] <mako> yes, i'll approve "already members" right after the meeting
[02:22] <\sh> mako, ok :)
[02:22] <mako> as long as i actually have that ability
[02:23] <mako> is stacy here?
[02:23] <Seveas> launchpad is kinda slow atm
[02:23] <squinn> off-topic, but I'm creating FloridaTeam right now.
[02:23] <Kamion> requiring students to use Ubuntu> gosh. :-)
[02:23] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:23] <Kamion> seems like a straightforward advocacy application
[02:23] <dholbach> i think she wasn't her last time as well
[02:23] <\sh> mako, StacyWebb looks like a aka for britney spears ;)
[02:23] <dholbach> s/her/here
[02:23] <jsgotangco> haha
[02:23] <mako> yeah, i'll move stacy to the needs to show up pile
[02:24] <mako> i think she'd make a great ubuntite with a signed coc
[02:24] <dholbach> yeah
[02:24] <mako> alright.. Matt Galvin
[02:24] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:24] <mako> wait
[02:24] <mako> handled him on jun 07
[02:24] <mako> doh
[02:25] <squinn> heh
[02:25] <Seveas> lol :)
[02:25] <mako> shawarma, you're up
[02:25] <shawarma> Er. Ok. What am I supposed to say/do?
[02:25] <mako> ok, we'll look at your wiki page..
[02:25] <jsgotangco> shawarma, the sandwhich (sorry)?
[02:25] <Seveas> what you do for Ubuntu and what you are planning to 
[02:25] <Seveas> in a few lines
[02:26] <shawarma> jsgotangco: Kind of.. I'll tell you later.
[02:26] <mako> you should give a few sentances about what you have worked on in terms of contributions to the community and what you visition for ubuntu is
[02:26] <mako> what Seveas said
[02:26] <dholbach> i persuaded shawarma to have a look into the MOTU team ;)
[02:26] <shawarma> Seveas: Well, right now I'm trying to get a few packages into Universe (as can be seen on the MOTUNewPackages page). I obviously advocate Ubuntu whereever I go (almost pursuaded my workplace into moving from Debian / Redhat to UBuntu).
[02:27] <Kamion> yeah, I was going to ask if anyone there had looked over those packages
[02:27] <shawarma> Other than that I'm about to start a consulting company specializing in Ubuntu.
[02:27] <\sh> Kamion, review day...:)
[02:27] <dholbach> Kamion: not yet, i'll do it on the review day! :)
[02:27] <jsgotangco> awesome
[02:27] <ogra> Kamion, we have a review day
[02:27] <shawarma> I maintain a load of debs for my colleagues.
[02:27] <Mez> back *
[02:27] <squinn> yeah, especially..there's a package in main that needs updating
[02:27] <shawarma> My plans include more advocacy, bugsquashing, packaging..
[02:28] <squinn> or at least updated version in breezy
[02:28] <shawarma> And obviously the consulting thing.
[02:28] <mako> shawarma: ha consulting company, wow :)
[02:28] <shawarma> I'll probably join the MOTU team within a few days..
[02:28] <ogra> :)
[02:28] <shawarma> mako: :-) What's so funny?
[02:29] <shawarma> shawarma: I'm an idealist. It could work.
[02:29] <shawarma> Why do I always write to myself?
[02:29] <Seveas> :)
[02:29] <chmj> heh
[02:29] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:29] <shawarma> Well, I'll give it shot, that's for sure. Part time at first, but hopefully full time in a short while.
[02:29] <Seveas> if shawarma joins the motu in a few days, i'd say lets postpone his application for 2 weeks and see how the MOTU loves him
[02:30] <mako> ora
[02:30] <tseng> yes please, this is the first im hearing of him
[02:30] <tseng> 2 weeks is perfect if he gets involved in that time
[02:30] <mako> 
[02:30] <Mez>   ??
[02:31] <Seveas> mako, don't let the cat walk on your keyboard please :)
[02:31] <ogra> Seveas, i havent seen shawarma in #ubuntu-motu yet
[02:31] <jsgotangco> i don't mind 2 weeks isn't a long time
[02:31] <shawarma> ogra: I'm there right now...
[02:31] <shawarma> ogra: Lurking, though. :-)
[02:31] <dholbach> ogra, tseng: he was somehow misinformed, he should become a DD first :-/
[02:31] <ogra> shawarma, and i'd also like to see the bugs you mention listed, even if tey are small ones :)
[02:31] <Mez> DD?
[02:31] <tseng> dholbach: eh?
[02:31] <Seveas> Debian Developer
[02:31] <shawarma> debian devloper
[02:31] <tseng> dholbach: DD takes months if you are lucky.
[02:32] <mako> 
[02:32] <dholbach> yeah, i dunno who gave him that piece of information
[02:32] <ogra> shawarma, nope, thats not necessary... even if its welcomed :)
[02:32] <Seveas> mako, are you ok..?
[02:32] <shawarma> tseng: Someone on ubunu-motu told me a few weeks ago that I should become a DD first. I don't remember who, though.
[02:32] <\sh> hmmm...utf-8 is not working here :(
[02:32] <Mez> I think mako's having a fit
[02:32] <dholbach> NOOOOO! mako has water in his keyboard again!
[02:32] <tseng> shawarma: hm they are quite wrong.
[02:32] <Seveas> ohno
[02:32] <jsgotangco> that's great
[02:32] <shawarma> tseng: I might have just misunderstood, though, but at least that's what I think he told me.
[02:32] <jsgotangco> wohhoo
[02:32] <\sh> shawarma, who was it?
[02:32] <mako> sorry
[02:32] <tseng> shawarma: so please get involved these next two weeks so we can get to know you
[02:32] <mako> my keyboard broke
[02:32] <tseng> wb mako.
[02:32] <dholbach> yeah, whoever that was... deserves... whatever
[02:32] <mako> i had to go find a new one
[02:32] <shawarma> \sh: If I didn't know any better I'd say you or ogra. However, I might have misunderstood.
[02:32] <Mez> lol
[02:33] <Mez> keyboards just 2break" ?
[02:33] <mako> luckily, i have a backup for just such occasions
[02:33] <Seveas> :)
[02:33] <ogra> shawarma, i cant remember talking to you
[02:33] <squinn> HEH
[02:33] <ivoks> huh
[02:33] <squinn> aaah caps
[02:33] <squinn> heh*
[02:33] <\sh> ogra, me neither
[02:33] <mako> alright, in any case :)
[02:33] <tseng> damn ion3 keyboard abusers
[02:33] <ivoks> i hope laptop keyboards don't break too often :)
[02:33] <shawarma> ogra: I have that effect on people.. They just get hungry when they see my nick and then forget we talked. :-D
[02:33] <Seveas> shawarma, so to sum up: you'd better get involved with the MOTU first, becoming a member is based on both past and future contributions
[02:34] <sabdfl> ok
[02:34] <sabdfl> who's up next?
[02:34] <Seveas> PeterVanEynde
[02:34] <squinn> question though from an outsider
[02:34] <shawarma> Seveas: Cool.
[02:34] <pvaneynd> present
[02:34] <squinn> don't you have to be a maintainer [and thereby a member]  to be with the MOTU?
[02:34] <tseng> squinn: can you ask off topic things in #ubuntu-motu for now please?
[02:34] <Seveas> squinn, you can be involved with the MOTU without being a member
[02:35] <ogra> Seveas, but not be a MOTU
[02:35] <squinn> ah, sorry tseng 
[02:35] <Mez> lol - Seveas - I was originally told by ogra i had to beomce a member first :D
[02:35] <Seveas> pvaneynd, ok, the 2-line introduction please
[02:35] <squinn> ah, i think i understand
[02:35] <ogra> Mez, to be a MOTU, yes.... to be involved, no
[02:35] <mako> is peter here?
[02:35] <Seveas> mako, yes, pvaneynd :)
[02:35] <tseng> mako: yes, pvaneynd 
[02:35] <jsgotangco> pvaneynd
[02:35] <mako> sorry, missed that
[02:35] <squinn> you wouldn't be a MOTU, just a contributer to the MOTUs, right?
[02:35] <mako> pvaneynd: what to give us the few sentance run down
[02:35] <sabdfl> squinn: you can contribute, send patches, send packages for review etc
[02:36] <pvaneynd> I'm a debian maintainer of a few Common Lisp related packages who would like to also take care of them in ubuntu.
[02:36] <jsgotangco> squinn, #ubuntu-motu pls
[02:36] <squinn> yeah, got it. cool, i like that.
[02:36] <squinn> yeah, i'm there, and i'm moving all my stuff to there
[02:36] <sabdfl> squinn: you can also become a member by doing lots of bug triage, or docs, or translations, or advocacy
[02:36] <mako> pvaneynd: these are almsot certainly packages in "universe" which means you should be working with the MOTU group.. have you been doing so already?
[02:36] <Kamion> mako: yeah, see his wiki page
[02:36] <ogra> squinn, but please note the bugs down on your wiki
[02:36] <pvaneynd> As none of the packages are in ubuntu proper this would mean working with the MOTU's
[02:37] <squinn> ogra, yeah, i noted that from a user's wiki
[02:37] <mako> pvaneynd: have you started working with the motu groups yet? made some progress?
[02:37] <squinn> sorry for the distraction -- on with the meeting
[02:38] <dholbach> pvaneynd: they're not in ubuntu proper? what do you mean?
[02:38] <tseng> sorry, ill have to suggest the same thing again.. can pvaneynd get involved with us for a few weeks?
[02:38] <tseng> and return.
[02:38] <ogra> mako, i havent seen pvaneynd yet in -motu
[02:38] <motaboy> Hi all!
[02:38] <pvaneynd> At the moment I'm trying to start a MOTU team to handle the Common Lisp packages
[02:38] <mako> pvaneynd: that sounds great :)
[02:38] <mako> pvaneynd: we tend to use membership to recognize sustained contributions
[02:38] <\sh> ogra, not right...i remember that I had tried this sbcl package to compile...a couple of weeks ago
[02:38] <ogra> pvaneynd, you are aware of the requirements for a MOTUTeam ?
[02:38] <pvaneynd> dholbach: all of them are in universe
[02:39] <ogra> pvaneynd, what "not proper" with universe ?
[02:39] <mako> pvaneynd: since the motu folks don't know you yet, the best situation would be to work with them over the next 2-4 weeks and then come back here
[02:39] <Kamion> motaboy: ok, we're working our way down the list at the moment, and will get to you
[02:39] <Kamion> motaboy: thanks for showing up
[02:39] <mako> pvaneynd: you can sign the code of conduct now of course and gain ubuntite status :)
[02:39] <pvaneynd> mako: ok, perfect
[02:39] <mako> pvaneynd: great :)
[02:39] <dholbach> woohoo! MOTUTeams! :)
[02:39] <mako> #
[02:39] <mako> TravisWatkins
[02:40] <Seveas> immediate +1 on Amaranth from me
[02:40] <tseng> hm Amaranth++
[02:40] <tseng> but he is not here?
[02:40] <ogra> has he sorted his key ?
[02:40] <Mez> amaranth is idle
[02:40] <jsgotangco> Definitely for Amaranth
[02:40] <Mez> and someone said he was going to sign his key when they go to texas
[02:40] <jsgotangco> (if he's here)
[02:40] <dholbach> i called amaranth
[02:40] <mako> i know amaranth here as well.. would be happy to have him on board
[02:41] <\sh> amaranth++ he's hot and spicy :) for ubunut membership ;)
[02:41] <\sh> s/ubunut/ubuntu/
[02:41] <ivoks> ++ for armanath!
[02:41] <Kamion> modulo the keysigning thing I'm happy with Amaranth
[02:41] <Mez> +1 from me (though I'm not a member - yet)
[02:41] <ogra> Mez, get your key signed !!
[02:41] <Mez> ogra - I'm waiting on Phil hands to sign it
[02:41] <mako> i'm willing to approve him based on the fact that he's showed up to just about every other CC meeting ever :)
[02:41] <Mez> I went and met him liek - a week and a bit ago
[02:41] <Mez> :(
[02:41] <Mez> and he still ahsnt signed it
[02:42] <ogra> :(
[02:42] <jsgotangco> except his approval meeting?
[02:42] <squinn> I'm forever in debt to Amaranth
[02:42] <mako> sabdfl, elmo: want to do this now or postpone?
[02:42] <squinn> haha jerome
[02:43] <sabdfl> mako: can do it now
[02:45] <mako> yeah, i have to do some crazy account reclaiming and merging first
[02:45] <mako> i'm not going to get to it until after the meeting
[02:45] <mako> elo, sabdfl: amaranth, yea/nay?
[02:45] <mako> elmo even
[02:46] <Seveas> elmo seems to be idle
[02:46] <sabdfl>  +1 from me, sorry for the distraction
[02:46] <mako> alright.. that's a majority
[02:46] <sabdfl> for some reason, the world just decided to msg me
[02:47] <\sh> sabdfl, /ignore world ;)
[02:47] <Mez> * world :No such nick/channel
[02:47] <mako> i can add elmo's ultimate answer to amaranth's Permanent Record :)
[02:47] <elmo> ack
[02:47] <Mez> permanent record ?
[02:47] <mako> JeanRemyFalleri
[02:47] <JRe> mako: yes!
[02:48] <sabdfl> hey JRe
[02:48] <mako> JRe: greetings, want to do the what i do/what i want to see done thing?
[02:48] <JRe> mako: i want to help ubuntu by making packages and documentation
[02:48] <mako> there is a JR and a JRe working on kubuntu.. oh man :)
[02:49] <Riddell> mako: messes up my irssi highlights all the time
[02:49] <Kamion> Riddell: have you worked with JRe?
[02:49] <Riddell> Kamion: I have indeed, I fully recommend him for membership
[02:49] <mako> Kamion: not only have the worked together, they are going to be simplifying things by merging into one single entity
[02:49] <Kamion> haha
[02:49] <mako> to reduce confusion
[02:49] <Kamion> ok, well that's useful to know
[02:49] <Seveas> :o)
[02:50] <Riddell> he's made some packages of useful programmes
[02:50] <Seveas> They'll become JRJRe, The JarJar of Ubuntu :) 
[02:50] <jsgotangco> OMG
[02:50] <JRe> Seveas: ;)
[02:50] <jsgotangco> DIE
[02:50] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:50] <jsgotangco> jk
[02:50] <mako> JRe: so, where do you want to see ubuntu/kubuntu go?
[02:50] <Mez> -1 for jar jar :D :P
[02:51] <Riddell> his KubuntuPackagingGuide is the best documentation MOTU has at the moment :)
[02:51] <JRe> mako: to the best linux distro for end user ever, of course!
[02:51] <mako> JRe: easy enough, what sort of stuff do you want to do to help it get there?
[02:51] <jsgotangco> OMG That is a nice document
[02:51] <\sh> mako, i have to ++ riddell, it's right, for the cdbs + kde packaging universe, it's really a great work
[02:51] <dholbach> Riddell: packaging guide? seems like he should get together with tseng, unfrgiven and ajmitch?
[02:51] <Seveas> looks good indeed, but why call it KubuntuPackaging guide?
[02:52] <Seveas> it's not Kubuntu specific
[02:52] <JRe> mako: i plan to package soft which improves usability
[02:52] <\sh> it should be included into IntroDevelopersDocs
[02:52] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:52] <JRe> mako: i plan to develop software in order to improve usability
[02:52] <ogra> \sh, does it cover debhelper scripts too ?
[02:52] <\sh> ogra, no...
[02:53] <ogra> Riddell, ^^ ?
[02:53] <ogra> ah... sad
[02:53] <\sh> ogra, but I think we can creae  the same guide for dhelper 
[02:53] <\sh> create even
[02:53] <ogra> \sh, i really dont like if newcomers are taught cdbs... but you like that
[02:53] <dholbach> can we take the cdbs-bashing to somewhere else? :)
[02:53] <ogra> s/like/know/
[02:53] <mako> JRe: are interested in focusinng on kubuntu or working on stuff that impacts the distro as a whole?
[02:53] <\sh> ogra, hu? where is it written? 
[02:54] <ogra> \sh, that i dont like it ? 
[02:54] <\sh> ogra, that I like it!
[02:54] <JRe> mako: i am interessted to help the whole ubuntu project if i can, but i am more focused on the kubuntu project
[02:54] <\sh> mako: JRe will join the MOTUKde team ;)
[02:55] <\sh> he joined already
[02:55] <mako> awesome
[02:55] <ogra> \sh, lets talk over that somewhere else... i wan a plocy that the first package a MOTU touches must be debhelper...
[02:55] <mako> JRe: well, we appreciate your contributions
[02:55] <JRe> mako: thanks!
[02:55] <dholbach> would be cool if the kubuntu newcomers were in #ubuntu-motu as well - so everybody would profit from your knowledge :)
[02:55] <Kamion> ditto
[02:56] <jsgotangco> dholbach, +1
[02:56] <JRe> dholbach: i'm adding this channel to my auto join list right now ;)
[02:56] <ogra> except Riddell and \sh indeed
[02:56] <dholbach> the kubuntu crew is a rocking team already
[02:56] <\sh> ogra, riddell \sh
[02:56] <dholbach> JRe: excellent :)
[02:56] <ogra> \sh, ;)
[02:57] <mako> sabdfl, elmo: JRe ?
[02:57] <sabdfl> JRe: it's #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu that need attention :-)
[02:57] <sabdfl>  +1 from me
[02:57] <JRe> sabdfl: of course ;)
[02:57] <elmo> ack
[02:57] <mako> JRe: welcome :)
[02:58] <mako> JRe: signed coc, on my desk :)
[02:58] <Seveas> welcome JRe 
[02:58] <\sh> JRe: rock :) welcome :)
[02:58] <dholbach> rocking :)
[02:58] <ogra> hi JRe 
[02:58] <JRe> thanks all!!!
[02:58] <ivoks> yay! :)
[02:58] <mako> Mez: you're last up, no?
[02:58] <mako> we looked at your application last time.. 
[02:58] <Mez> you did? 
[02:58] <Mez> o_O
[02:59] <Mez> I only put it on the agenda last week :P
[02:59] <Mez> I spoke to you in private about it D:
[02:59] <Mez> you must be thinking of nalioth
[02:59] <mako> in any case, do you want to do the spiel?
[02:59] <Seveas> nalioth was approved last week and asked to lead the newbies project
[02:59] <jsgotangco> NewbieGods?
[03:00] <Mez> yeah ,nalioth and I are workign together on it :d
[03:00] <dholbach> the name might be a bit irritating :)
[03:00] <ogra> a bit ?
[03:00] <Mez> dholbach, the name cna be changed :D
[03:00] <sabdfl> NewbieHeroes?
[03:00] <Seveas> please do change it
[03:00] <ogra> sounds good
[03:01] <Mez> NewbieGods was just a suggestion
[03:01] <Seveas> oh and Mez don't forget to add me :)
[03:01] <Mez> the for the people :D
[03:01] <Mez> Seveas - did you send me your details ?
[03:01] <sabdfl> TheNewbieNetwork
[03:01] <Mez> caus ei may have lost them (reformatteD)
[03:01] <Mez> sabdfl, UbuntuNeebieNetwork 
[03:01] <Mez> :P
[03:01] <\sh> NUN = NewUsersNetwork
[03:01] <Mez> sNeebie/Newbie
[03:02] <sabdfl> NUN is cool
[03:02] <sabdfl> anyhow, OT
[03:02] <sabdfl> Mez, what's your pitch for membership?
[03:02] <hno73> UbuntNu
[03:02] <\sh> sabdfl, please write it down as idea ;)
[03:02] <mako> we don't need to decide the name here
[03:02] <mako> we should however, make some decision on Mez 
[03:03] <Mez> Well, I'm currently working on setting up the UNP (NUN/whatever) which, I hope will work towards the future.
[03:03] <mako> Mez: do you want do the what i've done/what i want to do thing :)
[03:03] <Seveas> let's wait until NUN gets started
[03:03] <Mez> I'm also a backport developer, and hope to become a kubuntu/MOTUKde packager/developer.
[03:03] <Mez> I'm also a regular helper for all sers on the fourms, on IRc and when i can via the mailing lists.
[03:03] <Seveas> Mez, have you already had contact with the MOTU, like having packages reviewed?
[03:04] <ogra> Seveas, he is around in our channel regulary
[03:04] <Mez> Seveas - I've been in contact with ogra briefly, but i havent had packages reviewed
[03:04] <sabdfl> Mez - have you been busy on the forums or lists?
[03:04] <Riddell> Mez has done a couple of very useful updates to kubuntu packages which have been uploaded
[03:04] <Mez> yes sabdfl 
[03:04] <chmj> erm, how about calling them LOTU = Lords Of The Universe ? 
[03:04] <sabdfl> i would consider a substantial presence and work on the forums to be candidacy for membership
[03:04] <sabdfl> are you a forums admin or moderator?
[03:05] <Mez> I've also updated konversaiton for breezy, and fixed the k3b package for breezy
[03:05] <sabdfl> ok, good enough for me
[03:05] <ogra> Riddell, i'd appreciate if we could coordinate kubuntu and the motu a bit more, most of the kubuntu people you propse i have never heard about....
[03:05] <Mez> sabdfl, I'm being considered for moderatorship, however the proccess is long and complicated
[03:06] <ogra> Riddell, ... neither have i seen any packages...
[03:06] <dholbach> ogra: there are loads on MOTUNewPackages
[03:06] <dholbach> ogra: loads of kde packages
[03:06] <Mez> ogra - #kubunut-devel
[03:06] <ogra> dholbach, sure, but i'd like to know the person i vote for
[03:06] <Mez> ogra - #kubuntu-devel *
[03:06] <sabdfl> ok, w.r.t. Mez, we can either decide now or wait for NUN
[03:06] <sabdfl> elmo, kamion, mako?
[03:07] <\sh> ogra, he provided some patches for konversation k3b etc.
[03:07] <\sh> mez++ for membership
[03:07] <Mez> k3b was a pain in the ass to fix :D would build under hoary but not under breezy :D
[03:07] <ogra> \sh, its just te lack of information exchange that bothery me
[03:07] <ogra> bothers even
[03:07] <sabdfl> ogra's getting all hot and bothery :-)
[03:07] <ivoks> Mez: gcc/g++4
[03:07] <\sh> ogra, ok, let me be your GW between the 10x10 and 90x10 world :)
[03:08] <sabdfl> heatwave in germany, i heard ;-)
[03:08] <ogra> yes, lol
[03:08] <Mez> yeah i know ivoks :D was just a picky compiler and sloppy coding
[03:08] <dholbach> haha :)
[03:08] <ogra> \sh, lol
[03:08] <Kamion> I'm ok with Mez, if he promises to work with ogra to keep him happy :-)
[03:08] <sabdfl> Mez: looks like you are close, but not quite there
[03:08] <sabdfl> ah... over the hump :-)
[03:08] <Seveas> hehe
[03:08] <Nafallo> Kamion++
[03:08] <Mez> lol @ Kamion ... I'm all for bringin kubuntu and MOTU closer
[03:08] <Nafallo> :-)
[03:08] <sabdfl> that's martin meredith, right Mez?
[03:08] <dholbach> excellent news!
[03:08] <\sh> Mez, send ogra some 10x10 packages ;)
[03:08] <mako> sabdfl: yes
[03:08] <ogra> Kamion, he already does, but for example i didnt even know he already had packaged something for us
[03:08] <Seveas> KuMOTU?
[03:08] <Mez> yip sabdfl 
[03:08] <elmo> ack from me too
[03:09] <mako> Mez: welcome
[03:09] <Mez> \sh thought it as 90x10
[03:09] <sabdfl> ok, i've updated the members list
[03:09] <mako> ok.. 
[03:09] <Seveas> OK, welcome aboard Mez!
[03:09] <Mez> ty
[03:09] <ogra> yay for Mez 
[03:09] <\sh> mez: kde=90x10 gnome just 10x10 ;-)
[03:09] <mako> lets finish up the agenda
[03:09] <ivoks> Seveas: motku
[03:09] <ivoks> Seveas: masters of the kde universe
[03:09] <mako> any other local team items?
[03:09] <mako> going once
[03:09] <squinn> the fact that a florida team would never wrok
[03:09] <squinn> work
[03:09] <ogra> ivoks, nah, dont separate :)
[03:09] <ivoks> ogra: :)
[03:09] <sabdfl> we have one thing i want to raise with the CC
[03:09] <mako> squinn: ah, anything can work :)
[03:09] <Nafallo> \sh: ms won't be wiped out that easy I'm afraid ;-)
[03:10] <squinn> not when you're the only ubuntu-ing floridian
[03:10] <mako> alright, any other business: mark you're up
[03:10] <sabdfl> the TB have asked for an extra person, so i'm going to make a nomination shortly
[03:10] <Kamion> mako: Simone Gotti showed up
[03:10] <\sh> Nafallo, I rounded the numbers ;)
[03:10] <mako> oh, excellent
[03:10] <squinn> oh alright
[03:10] <ivoks> mako: i have one question...
[03:10] <sabdfl> the process is that the developer team will have a vote to confirm that
[03:10] <Kamion> mako: (motaboy)
[03:10] <sabdfl> we need to figure out a voting mechanism
[03:10] <dholbach> mako, Kamion: he just said, he became member and confused it
[03:10] <sabdfl> we also need to decide if we should distinguish between universe and main maintainers
[03:10] <motaboy> Kamion: sorry :D
[03:10] <Kamion> dholbach: ah, ok, thanks
[03:11] <mako> sabdfl: distinguish in which way?
[03:11] <Seveas> sabdfl, do you mean voting between candidates or voting for approval..?
[03:11] <Kamion> dholbach: he's still on the "needs to show up" list though *puzzled*
[03:11] <Seveas> Kamion, mako should update that list :)
[03:11] <sabdfl> mako: one suggestion was that confirmations of TB appointments should require a vote of unrestricted uploaders only
[03:11] <dholbach> Kamion: yeah... that's why i called him in the first place
[03:11] <sabdfl> another was that all uploaders should vote
[03:11] <sabdfl> TB felt in favour of the latter
[03:12] <sabdfl> i'm ambivalent, but it's the CC that should decide
[03:12] <Seveas> sabdfl, what about a weighted voting?
[03:12] <tseng> i vote for all uploaders
[03:12] <mako> personally, i prefer the latter as well and am willing to give weight to weight to what the TB decides in this matter
[03:12] <tseng> unrestricted is a smaller group, and is largely in canonical employment
[03:12] <dholbach> Seveas: oh no.. we'll end up with complicated voting charts as in debian ;-)
[03:12] <tseng> including the motu allows more community control
[03:12] <tseng> or, influence
[03:12] <sabdfl> Seveas: to answer your previous question, the procedure to get someone on the CC or TB is that I make a nomination, and the maintainers / members (for TB/CC) vote yes or no, a majority confirms the appointment
[03:12] <mako> elmo: do you have strong feelings?
[03:13] <Seveas> sabdfl, thnx
[03:13] <elmo> mako: call me an elitist cabal-continuing black-helicopter-owning fascist, but I sort-of-prefer main only
[03:13] <tseng> elmo: reasoning? its confirming appointments, not making them
[03:13] <mako> Kamion: ?
[03:13] <elmo> I think that the TB's a very important, powerful body, and it's very important that the people on there, really are the most technically competent
[03:14] <Kamion> hmm, now I have to think
[03:14] <elmo> not necessarily the most popular
[03:14] <sabdfl> elmo: thanks, you saved the the trouble, i can never type black-helicopter-owning fascist
[03:14] <sabdfl> much easier to copy and paste
[03:14] <ogra> heh
[03:14] <Kamion> it *is* worth noting that people don't get on the ballot unless sabdfl nominates them in the first place
[03:14] <Seveas> elmo, so why not include the MOTU leaders, or don't they have such a distinction there?
[03:15] <elmo> Seveas: who are the MOTU leaders exactly?
[03:15] <tseng> Seveas: they are included already
[03:15] <ogra> Seveas, dholbach and me already are main uploaders.... and i guess \sh will be soon too as well as Riddell 
[03:15] <elmo> you mean MOTMOTU or something else?
[03:15] <tseng> Seveas: by upload-to-main privelage
[03:15] <Seveas> ah ok
[03:15] <sabdfl> Kamion: that argues in favour of as strong a community weighting on the vote as possible, imo
[03:15] <Kamion> I'd be interested to know what sabdfl's criteria for nomination are
[03:15] <\sh> ogra, i don't have the intention right now
[03:16] <sabdfl> Kamion: they need to feel comfortable in a black helicopter
[03:16] <Kamion> :-)
[03:16] <ogra> \sh, but you would be a candidate of mine :)
[03:16] <jsgotangco> hah
[03:16] <\sh> ogra, lets talk about it when the time comes :)
[03:16] <ogra> sabdfl, you didnt test this with me :/
[03:16] <elmo> don't get me wrong, this is just what I think, I'm not utterly opposed to the alternative
[03:16] <sabdfl> ogra: you're not on the TB ;-)
[03:16] <\sh> first let me break xorg once...then we can talk about main ;)
[03:16] <ogra> :)
[03:16] <tseng> just to be clear there are only 2 non-canonical employees with main unrestricted upload
[03:16] <ivoks> haha
[03:16] <elmo> tseng: not sure that's true
[03:16] <sabdfl> tseng: that nmber will grow over time
[03:17] <ogra> \sh, ask me if you ned help ;)
[03:17] <sabdfl> we're putting a policy in place that we have to live with for a long long time
[03:17] <tseng> elmo: youd probably know have the best count.
[03:17] <Seveas> tseng, that is not neccessarily a bad thing, is it?
[03:17] <mako> Seveas: i'd like to see it change
[03:17] <Kamion> since the nomination is by one person and fairly controlled, I'm very slightly inclined towards all uploaders
[03:17] <sabdfl> a major concern for me is apathy, more than a bad vote
[03:17] <Kamion> if the former ever changes we have to revisit the latter too
[03:18] <mako> sabdfl: that should concern everyone *except* you ;-)
[03:18] <Nafallo> Kamion++
[03:18] <Seveas> +1 on Kamion 
[03:18] <elmo> tseng: off hand, I'd say it's more like 7
[03:18] <elmo> (based on a quick look at the maintainer keyring, vs. an in-my-head recollection of who canonical employs)
[03:18] <elmo> 7/30
[03:18] <sabdfl> there's no doubt that we have longer to get to know someone before they become an unrestricted uploader
[03:18] <Seveas> mako, I guess it will change over time, the MOTU is a lot youger than the Ubuntu project :)
[03:18] <sabdfl> and the TB really does set the technical architecture and strategy for the distro
[03:19] <tseng> elmo: oh the difference is probably people i assumed were
[03:19] <mako> ok.. so i'm trying to see where we stand
[03:19] <sabdfl> i'm in favour of the widest possible community participation, as long as we don't risk casting the net so wide we get people who are voters who don't actually know or care about the issues
[03:19] <Seveas> let's vote :)
[03:19] <mako> i'm moderatately in favor of all maintainers, sabdfl is ambivalent, elmo is moderately opposed and Kamion is slightly in favor
[03:20] <Seveas> sabdfl, I think all uploaders care enough about it, they care enough to upload packages too
[03:20] <sabdfl> Seveas: main thing is to consider how people's interests change over time
[03:20] <dholbach> some of them don't upload packages - at least not that often
[03:20] <Kamion> Seveas: mm, a lot of people only care about their little set of packages
[03:20] <Kamion> at any rate that's the case in Debian and it's perfectly natural
[03:20] <sabdfl> though both membership and maintainership do need renewal, so we are not likely to have people who have been out of touch for three years on the ballot list
[03:20] <Seveas> ok, so let the major uploaders participate in the vote...
[03:20] <mako> elmo: how opposed are you?
[03:21] <\sh> Kamion, but this is different with motu at all
[03:21] <Kamion> \sh: I don't expect it to be
[03:21] <sabdfl> i think we'll be ok with a vote of all uploaders, so i'd like to propose that to the CC as a resolution, and ask for a +1 or -1 indication, i'll have a casting vote if needed
[03:21] <ogra> Kamion, vurrently it is
[03:21] <elmo> mako: not enough to even sulk, if I'm out-voted
[03:21] <ogra> currently even
[03:21] <Kamion> \sh: it's completely natural for people to care most about the things they got involved to do
[03:21] <mako> ok..
[03:21] <sabdfl> in alphabetical order: elmo, mako, kamion, sabdfl
[03:21] <sabdfl> ;-)
[03:22] <\sh> Kamion, if you prepare software, u have to care about your package, right, but this is something different from doing the  motu stuff...even to touch gtkmm...but I did, and a lot of other stuff will come as well
[03:22] <mako> hey, i want to to first in alphabetical order
[03:22] <sabdfl> 0 to abstain
[03:22] <elmo> -1
[03:22] <Kamion> \sh: trust me, not everyone will get deeply involved
[03:22] <mako> +1
[03:22] <Kamion> +1
[03:22] <mako> alright.. 
[03:23] <sabdfl> +1
[03:23] <mako> sabdfl: VOTE CHANGER
[03:23] <\sh> Kamion, this is an individual process...yes, but this is the reason why I'm here and a lot of others
[03:23] <mako> any other business?
[03:23] <mako> F
[03:23] <Seveas> yes
[03:23] <sabdfl> with kamion's clause: we revisit this if the nomination process changes
[03:23] <Seveas> I have a request for everyone: I am trying to collect meeting statistics, can everyone please visit www.ubuntulinux.nl/time and submit his data the, kthxbye :)
[03:23] <mako> sabdfl: sure, abolutely
[03:23] <Kamion> \sh: I completely understand and agree that *some* people will get more involved beyond their initial reason for joining
[03:23] <sabdfl> mako: hey, i said i was ambivalent, but also said that the nomination process should be balanced by wider community participation...
[03:23] <ogra> Seveas, you mean a Calendar, like dholbach has set up ?
[03:23] <mako> :)
[03:23] <sabdfl> ok
[03:24] <dholbach> \sh: it'll change over time and some MOTUs already don't show up anymore and don't submit packages - not that i'm mad at them, but it shows, that things change
[03:24] <mako> ANOTHER OTHER BUSINESS
[03:24] <Seveas> ogra, i don't know about dholbachs initiative
[03:24] <jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects is smoking!
[03:24] <ivoks> mako: PGP issue :)
[03:24] <mako> ivoks: talk to me after
[03:24] <sabdfl> all clear from me
[03:24] <Seveas> ogra, url?
[03:24] <mako> business for the entire council
[03:24] <tseng> Seveas: he has no initiative, he is a slacker.
[03:24] <ogra> Seveas, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar
[03:24] <mako> speak now or wait for two weeks
[03:24] <\sh> dholbach, well...ask them why..and if they're not interessted anymore...i think membership is valid for only 1 year, right?
[03:24] <mako> going once..
[03:24] <Seveas> i spoke
[03:24] <mako> going twice..
[03:24] <Seveas> a few listened :)
[03:25] <mako> gone
[03:25] <Seveas> and jsgotangco spoke
[03:25] <jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects get involved!
[03:25] <jsgotangco> hehe
[03:25] <sabdfl> done - thanks all
[03:25] <mako> alright, next meeting is scheduled 
[03:25] <mako> two weeks from today at UTC 22
[03:25] <\sh> thx everybody
[03:25] <Seveas> ogra, no notjing like that
[03:25] <mako> we'll flip flop between those two times
[03:25] <mako> to maximize the number of people who can show up
[03:25] <ivoks> DanielN_: late :)
[03:25] <Mez> UTC 22 ?
[03:25] <Seveas> mako, can it be 1 hr earlier?
[03:25] <dholbach> have a nice day everybody
[03:25] <Mez> thats 11pm!
[03:25] <Mez> grr
[03:25] <Mez> :(
[03:25] <DanielN_> ivoks:  i'm at work
[03:25] <jsgotangco> bye
[03:25] <ogra> Seveas, ah, i see
[03:25] <mako> Mez: this time is impossible for people on the US west coast
[03:26] <mako> Mez: we're trying to maximize the number of people who show up, not just cater to one group
[03:26] <mako> Mez: i got up at 7am today to prepare for this one :)
[03:26] <Mez> mako :D I know :D
[03:26] <mako> thanks everyone
[03:26] <Mez> poor mako :D
[03:26] <JRe> ;)
[03:26] <mako> nah, that's what coffee is for
[03:26] <ogra> Seveas, hey, what do you use for the grphs
[03:27] <squinn> mako, join the club
[03:27] <ogra> graphs ?
[03:27] <mako> see you all in two weeks
[03:27] <squinn> goin to bed at about 3AM and gettin up at 7's a trip
[03:27] <Seveas> ogra, php-gd
[03:27] <ogra> Seveas, is this a GD derivative ? 
[03:27] <squinn> yep, see you in two week
[03:27] <squinn> s
[03:27] <ogra> ah
[03:38] <shawarma> Mez: 22:00 is 10pm, not 11.
[03:52] <Seveas> in UK it's 11 :)
[03:52] <Seveas> for mr it's midnight :S
[03:52] <Seveas> me*
[04:01] <JRe> Seveas: same for me in italy!
[04:04] <Mez> shawarma, yeah, but in the UK - 22 UTC == 11PM BST