[12:01] <seb128> I've some bug set as upstream not forwarded though
[12:02] <Burgundavia> to me, the point of marking something as upstream is that the upstream has been notified
[12:02] <seb128> ie: for bugs that are know by upstream even if there is no special bugzilla bug for them
[12:03] <seb128> yeah, but upstream know stuff out of bugzilla
[12:03] <Burgundavia> true
[12:03] <seb128> discussed on the list, on IRC, etc
[12:03] <Burgundavia> but the advantage of filing a bug is that then non-developers can track what is happening
[12:03] <Burgundavia> that is, after all, what a bug tracker is also for
[12:05] <seb128> what is the point to open bugs like https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1115 ?
[12:06] <seb128> bugzilla.ubuntu.com already has this bug
[12:06] <Burgundavia> kiko-afk Burgundavia, sounds like a plan
[12:06] <seb128> hum, k, that's an universe bug
[12:07] <Burgundavia> seb128, I am trying to make your life easier, not harder
[12:08] <seb128> you should open upstream bugs upstream so :)
[12:08] <seb128> so I don't have to argue for ages about details with them
[12:09] <seb128> most of your bugs are small details, need to be discussed and I don't agree with half of them
[12:09] <Burgundavia> the devil is in the details
[12:10] <Burgundavia> seb128, I learned a long time ago that we don't agree on a great many points
 I filed a malone bug about this
[12:10] <kiko-afk> I have a comment on this.
[12:10] <kiko-afk> The comment is that malone doesn't /need/ an upstream resolution
[12:10] <TMM> or is that one of those :"if you want it, implement it" things?
[12:10] <kiko-afk> why?
[12:10] <Burgundavia> true
[12:10] <Burgundavia> hmm
[12:10] <kiko-afk> because it has bugwatches
[12:10] <kiko-afk> any bug /can/ be upstream
[12:10] <TMM> hey, just out of curiousity, any chance for a reiser4 install option with breezy?
[12:10] <seb128> kiko-afk: do you know why, whyyyy, I have to login to malone every single time I start my browser ?
[12:10] <TMM> sorry, my copy/paste skills really suck :)
[12:11] <kiko-afk> so you link a task to an upstream bug, and just look at the comments trickle in
[12:11] <kiko-afk> and then the fix!
[12:11] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:11] <ogra> TMM, if linux accepts it in the official kernel
[12:11] <Burgundavia> .13 is supposed to
[12:11] <kiko-afk> seb128, yes. it's using a session cookie, not a persistent cookie. if you file a bug I have more firepower to change it.
[12:11] <ogra> TMM, s/linux/linus
[12:11] <seb128> kiko-afk: do you know if that's already filled?
[12:11] <kiko-afk> it's not, IIRC.
[12:11] <seb128> (so I can be lazy and not search for it)
[12:11] <seb128> thanks
[12:12] <TMM> also, I've changed some stuff in the laptop part of ubuntu, where do I go with patches and/or go for discussion?
[12:12] <TMM> I think it's useful, at least, it is on my hardware :)
[12:12] <ogra> TMM, ubuntu-devel mailing list
[12:12] <TMM> okidokie
[12:12] <TMM> high volume?
[12:12] <ogra> nope
[12:12] <TMM> good :)
[12:13] <seb128> kiko-afk: is https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/676 about this?
[12:13] <TMM> isn't reiser4 already in mainline?
[12:13] <TheMuso> =/cl
[12:13] <Burgundavia> TMM, no
[12:13] <TMM> ow... I thought it was
[12:13] <TMM> well, spank my ass and call me charly :)
[12:14] <TMM> it's not going to be accepted until it is in linus' tree?
[12:14] <TMM> there's other stuff in the ubuntu kernel that's not in linus' tree, right?
[12:15] <kiko-afk> seb128, hmm, that's a terrible summary for it, but yes!
[12:15] <seb128> kiko-afk: should I put a "me too" on it? :)
[12:15] <kiko-afk> YES!
[12:19] <zul> TMM, yes..but reiserfs4 is still not to be included anytime soon
[12:19] <TMM> too bad
[12:19] <kiko-afk> mdz, there are no global saved searches.
[12:20] <TMM> I tried it on a test machine, at the whole system felt a lot faster because of it
[12:20] <TMM> might be purly perception though
[12:20] <TMM> I expected it to be faster, so, I guess it's not a good benchmark
[12:25] <ogra> TMM, speed is not everything.... fast filesystems might loose data fast as well ;)  (especially reiser)
[12:25] <TMM> yeah... I can remember the early days of reiser3...
[12:26] <TMM> a friend of mine always says :"reiser has great ideas, and is probably the smartest fs designer out there... don't touch his code with a ten foot pole until it's ver 1.5"
[12:26] <TMM> I guess there's truth in that :)
[12:27] <ogra> remove the dot in the version number and i'm with you
[12:27] <TMM> lol
[12:27] <tseng> elmo: can we get boo synced from unstable please?
[12:27] <TMM> reiser3 has been very stable for me since 2.4.15 or something
[12:27] <ogra> so he has still 11 to go, given we are at 4
[12:28] <TMM> never had any data loss actually
[12:28] <TMM> which, in my book, is a good thing when it comes to filesystems :)
[12:28] <seb128> mdz, kiko-afk: do we have any "easyfix" bugzilla keyword? GNOME guys use that to show where people can contribute
[12:28] <Burgundavia> hans also has some inter-personal communcation issues, from what I have read of his emails
[12:28] <ogra> seb128, that was originally in my proposal
[12:29] <seb128> what proposal?
[12:29] <zul> Burgundavia: what classic geek doesnt?
[12:29] <ogra> (something similar at lleast)
[12:29] <ogra> seb128, bug day proposal
[12:29] <seb128> ie?
[12:29] <seb128> do you send that on a list?
[12:29] <TMM> yeah hans and linus seem to have a lot of 'issues' 
[12:29] <seb128> wiki?
[12:29] <ogra> seb128, having an additional bug tag for community people
[12:29] <ogra> seb128, nope
[12:30] <TMM> hans always things he is right, and linus... well, kind of thinks the same way :)
[12:30] <TMM> that usually clashes
[12:30] <kiko-afk> seb128, we could create one, I'm not against it.
[12:30] <TMM> I wonder if it's any better now
[12:30] <seb128> kiko-afk: I could use it for some bugs
[12:30] <kiko-afk> let me see
[12:30] <seb128> kiko-afk: ie: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6371
[12:31] <kiko-afk> seb128, trivial or easyfix or helpwanted or lowhangingfruit? :)
[12:31] <seb128> kiko-afk: but that could be also a forwarded to bugzilla.gnome.org and handled here
[12:31] <kiko-afk> seb128, true. 
[12:31] <ogra> lowhangingfruit
[12:31] <kiko-afk> :)
[12:31] <seb128> kiko-afk: helpwanted is something else ... just want to point a bug that could be easy to fix for a contributor and useful
[12:32] <\sh> guys...don't talk about boobs when I want to go to bed
[12:32] <ogra> or strawberry-bugs ;)
[12:32] <kiko-afk> seb128, do it or not?
[12:33] <seb128> kiko-afk: hum
[12:33] <\sh> lowhangingfruit, strawberry-bugs..what else? bugslikecherries?
[12:33] <\sh> off I go...good night gentlemen
[12:34] <seb128> kiko-afk: the issue is that I have some people sending random "this corner of the UI could be better", Burgundavia does that a lot, and that doesn't suit for upstream really and I've too many bug to handle to fix that myself
[12:34] <kiko-afk> seb128, created easyfix.
[12:34] <seb128> kiko-afk: that's not good for upstream because I know this is going for stay ignored here for ages too and there is no really interest to flood upstream with that
[12:34] <seb128> thanks
[12:35] <kiko-afk> seb128, we can tell people to fix here and then push upstream, perhaps.
[12:35] <seb128> I'll do that
[12:35] <seb128> atm I just ignore them
[12:35] <seb128> but that's not optimal
[12:35] <kiko-afk> right.
[12:36] <kiko-afk> I want to be able to use easyfix in bugdays too.
[12:37] <seb128> these bugs for me are "could be a good start for a contributor looking for an easy task to do"
[12:37] <seb128> so we can point the easyfix list on a bug days
[12:39] <Lathiat> seb128: libgtk2.0-dev should depend on libcairo1-dev (in those devel packages)
[12:39] <Lathiat> seb128: otherwise pkgconfig fails
[12:39] <seb128> Lathiat: these are non-official packages, but thanks
[12:39] <seb128> pango should b-d on it too
[12:39] <seb128> I don't want to bother rebuilding and scping here for that
[12:40] <Lathiat> seb128: yeh just letting you know for future
[12:40] <seb128> thanks
[12:40] <Lathiat> thought you might not have noticed if you had it installed anyway
[12:42] <thom> whiprush: well, in this instance, the NM blog entry
[12:43] <whiprush> thom: oh, hey I found out why it's so flakey my X40.
[12:43] <whiprush> updating the madwifi driver did the trick, works sweet now.
[12:43] <thom> oh? rocking
[12:44] <thom> i must get all the vpn stuff packaged
[12:45] <whiprush> yeah whatever they shipped in Fc4 works nearly perfectly on the x40.
[12:45] <Nafallo> thom: shtoom is yours to? :-)
[12:45] <thom> Nafallo: daf's
[12:46] <Nafallo> thom: ahh, oki.
[12:46] <whiprush> thom: what kind of vpns does it support? (haven't tried it yet)
[12:47] <thom> whiprush: currently only vpnc is used, which i think means cisco only
[12:47] <whiprush> ah
[12:47] <thom> (which is what redhat's vpn is ;-) )
[12:48] <Nafallo> hehe
[12:49] <Nafallo> thom: what will we use in ubuntu? :-)
[12:49] <whiprush> hopefully eventually it will do pptp, etc. etc.
[12:50] <thom> what? there is no ubuntu vpn, since there are no offices to vpn into. when i said redhat's vpn, I literally mean "Red Hat, inc"'s VPN 
[12:51] <Nafallo> ahha. any ideas what vpn-solutions we might expect for breezy main? :-)
[12:52] <Nafallo> that's what I meant ;-)
[12:52] <thom> no idea if anyone is looking
[12:52] <zul> whatabout openswan?
[12:53] <Nafallo> if we want to be compatible with win we want pptp I suppose...
[12:55] <whiprush> the ubuntu kernel has pptp support built already. I just set one up a month or two ago.
[12:56] <Amaranth> that was almost painless
[12:56] <Amaranth> now to figure out why my fonts look like ass
[12:57] <seb128> Nafallo: nop, didn't notice for caire, but I've planned to fix such stuff before uploading to Debian/Ubuntu :)
[12:58] <Nafallo> ... and pptp is in main already. would be nice to have support in network-manager in breezy :-).
[12:58] <Nafallo> seb128: huh? :-)
[12:59] <seb128> s/caire/cairo/
[12:59] <seb128> Nafallo: why "huh"?
[01:00] <Nafallo> seb128: what was that about? :-)
 thought you might not have noticed if you had it installed anyway
[01:01] <Nafallo> Lathiat != Nafallo ;-)
[01:01] <seb128> Nafallo: s/Nafallo/Lathiat/
[01:01] <Nafallo> :-)
[01:01] <seb128> Nafallo: I fixed you sj bug btw :p
[01:01] <seb128> s/you/your/
[01:02] <Nafallo> seb128: I know. waiting for it to hit the archive :-)
[01:02] <Nafallo> seb128: if it works my plan was to tell you how bloody fast you are ;-)
[01:02] <Lathiat> heh i wish my unis cisco stuff worked with vpnc
[01:02] <Nafallo> seb128: and thanx in advance :-)
[01:02] <Lathiat> the offficial client stops all other traffic on all interfaces working, so breaks uml, bluetooth, vmware, etc
[01:03] <seb128> Lathiat: nop, didn't notice for caire, but I've planned to fix such stuff before uploading to Debian/Ubuntu :)
[01:03] <seb128> (with the right nickname this time)
[01:03] <seb128> s/caire/cairo/
[01:03] <Lathiat> ok :)
[01:07] <seb128> Burgundavia: thanks for the bug cleanup and the upstream forwards
[01:07] <Burgundavia> seb128, np
[01:07] <Burgundavia> I will do some more tomorrow
[01:10] <seb128> Amaranth: do you have a smeg place for Debian GNOME 2.10/users ?
[01:10] <Amaranth> no
[01:10] <Amaranth> pyxdg needs python 2.4
[01:11] <seb128> oh, I got a bug about this on the new pyxdg
[01:11] <Amaranth> sid is moving to python 2.4 soon, aren't they?
[01:11] <seb128> Amaranth: for what does it require it?
[01:11] <seb128> Amaranth: gcc4 first
[01:11] <Amaranth> is uses reversed()
[01:12] <Amaranth> err, it
[01:12] <seb128> Amaranth: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=315091
[01:12] <Amaranth> gcc4 before python 2.4?
[01:12] <seb128> Amaranth: the workaround is 2 lines
[01:12] <Amaranth> seb128: talk to the pyxdg author, not me :)
[01:12] <seb128> Amaranth: not an upstream issue
[01:12] <Amaranth> um
[01:12] <Amaranth> yes it is
[01:12] <seb128> why?
[01:13] <seb128> they require python2.4, good
[01:13] <seb128> we use 2.3, Debian's issue
[01:13] <seb128> we workaround it for Debian
[01:13] <Amaranth> your issue then :P
[01:13] <Amaranth> you handle pyxdg for debian, right?
[01:13] <seb128> right
[01:13] <seb128> and gnome-menus
[01:13] <seb128> do you require a patched gnome-menus?
[01:13] <Amaranth> no
[01:14] <Amaranth> wait, yes
[01:14] <Amaranth> 2.10.2 isn't out yet, is it?
[01:14] <seb128> that's a patch from the gnome-2-10 CVS ?
[01:14] <seb128> it's due today
[01:14] <Amaranth> either 2.10.2 or pull from the 2.10 branch in cvs
[01:14] <seb128> k, I'll ping markmc for a 2.10.2 and package that
[01:15] <seb128> fix pyxdg
[01:15] <seb128> then smeg is fine?
[01:15] <Amaranth> should be
[01:15] <seb128> cool
[01:15] <Amaranth> i don't have a machine with 2.3 on it but i don't think i used any 2.4 things
[01:15] <seb128> the menu editor is one of the favorite question from Debian users too
[01:15] <seb128> anyway Debian has python2.4 even if that's not the default
[01:15] <seb128> we can depends on it
[01:16] <Lathiat> sigh
[01:16] <Lathiat> ubuntu-forums still can post to the mailing list?
[01:16] <Lathiat> (ubuntu-devel,ml)
[01:17] <seb128> good question
[01:17] <Lathiat> cus i just saw a post from dlist@ubuntuforums.org
[01:17] <seb128> so probably yep
[01:17] <Lathiat> sigh
[01:18] <Burgundavia> they can't start threads now
[01:19] <Lathiat> sigh
[01:19] <Lathiat> @freedesktop.org has been getting alot of spam lately
[01:19] <Amaranth> they used to be able to start threads?
[01:19] <Amaranth> *shudder*
[01:19] <Lathiat> to avahi,lathiat@,avahi-owner@, etc
[01:20] <Burgundavia> if the issue gets too bad, the forum mods have said they will take it read-only
[01:20] <Lathiat> So, thats why this email was in reply to a 3 month old e-mail. :)
[01:21] <Nafallo> wow!
[01:21] <Nafallo> free music feels great to listen to :-)
[01:22] <Lathiat> theres some *really* good free music
[01:22] <Lathiat> i have a stack of it
[01:22] <Nafallo> I found Magnatune today *grin*
[01:22] <Lathiat> what genre?
[01:22] <Lathiat> purevolume.com has some good stuff too
[01:22] <Lathiat> ah magnatune is a site
[01:22] <Lathiat> hadnt seen thatone
[01:23] <Nafallo> everything except danceband and rap :-)
[01:23] <Nafallo> .com :-)
[01:24] <Lathiat> nice, 160K/s off that site. :)
[01:24] <Lathiat> mp3 in 30 seconds! :)
[01:24] <Lathiat> hey this sounds like good hacking music
[01:24] <Nafallo> I love that they let you decide the price and stuff :-)
[01:25] <Nafallo> and format to download, and, and, and ;-)
[01:25] <Amaranth> hrm
[01:25] <Amaranth> my root theme won't change
[01:26] <Lathiat> ubuntu:~/Desktop/Music> for i in `cat ../Alchemy-http.m3u`; do wget $i; done
[01:26] <Lathiat> :)
[01:27] <Lathiat> they eve have shuffle playlists, thats cool
[01:27] <Nafallo> hmm, thomboy-applet crashes gnome-panel
[01:27] <Nafallo> how nice
[01:28] <Nafallo> dooh!
[01:28] <Nafallo> s/thom/tom/
[01:28] <ogra> Nafallo, not here
[01:28] <Nafallo> ogra: started today. worked fine here to til then.
[01:29] <Nafallo> I must have changed something :-P
[01:29] <ogra> runs through since the last x upgrade
[01:29] <ogra>  ...here
[01:30] <Amaranth> doesn't work here either
[01:30] <Nafallo> odd, I'll check it out later.
[01:30] <Amaranth> it can't seem to find it's icon when i try to add it, then it says it quit unexpectedly, then it asks if i want to delete it or not
[01:31] <Lathiat> Nafallo: hah, my dslis now going to be flatlined for thenext couple hours ;)
[01:31] <Nafallo> Amaranth: exactly
[01:31] <Nafallo> Lathiat: hehe
[01:31] <Nafallo> Lathiat: mine is always flat :-)
[01:31] <Lathiat> unfortunately i can only download 20GB internationally a month
[01:31] <Lathiat> theres stuffinmy local city i get for free i do alotmoreof tho 
[01:32] <Nafallo> I got no restrictions what so ever :-)
[01:32] <Lathiat> heh
[01:32] <Lathiat> i bet its faster too :)
[01:32] <Nafallo> 420/420kbit
[01:32] <Nafallo> trafficshaped 512/512 ;-)
[01:32] <Lathiat> hrm, or not
[01:32] <Lathiat> 1.M/256
[01:33] <Lathiat> 512 what?
[01:33] <Nafallo> kbit
[01:33] <Lathiat> *1.5M/256K(bits)
[01:33] <Lathiat> how can you be traffic shaped higher than yoru link speed?:)
[01:33] <Nafallo> no. the speed is 512kbit, trafficshaped to 420kbit
[01:33] <Lathiat> heh when i get traffic shaped i get 72kbit
[01:34] <Lathiat> ah right
[01:34] <Nafallo> my pppoe kept dying :-P
[01:34] <Nafallo> doesn't anymore ;-)
[01:34] <Amaranth> eek!
[01:34] <Lathiat> bram cohensblog is a good read
[01:34] <Nafallo> Amaranth: ?
[01:34] <Amaranth> where did seb go?
[01:34] <Nafallo> 01:21 -!- seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-13-239.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr]  has quit
[01:34] <Nafallo>           ["I like core dumps"] 
[01:35] <Nafallo> what was the workaround for the hdparm-bug? :-)
[01:36] <Nafallo> if any...
[01:38] <tseng> Nafallo: the cdrom one?
[01:38] <tseng> Nafallo: that bugs the hell out of me
[01:38] <Nafallo> tseng: yes
[01:39] <Nafallo> I often forget to turn dma on til the cpuload becomes 100% ;-)
[01:39] <Nafallo> the I remember :-P
[01:39] <tseng> yeah it sucks to rip cds w/o dma
[01:39] <Nafallo> copy stuff from dvds is worse ;-)
[01:40] <Nafallo> damn
[01:40] <Nafallo> I'll buy this album later :-)
[01:40] <Lathiat> try burning
[01:40] <Lathiat> cus if you turn dma on into the burn it screws it up :) (at least for me)
[01:41] <Nafallo> Lathiat: hehe, I usally quit the task before turning it on ;-)
[01:42] <Lathiat> yeh but quitting halfway through a burn is annoying cus you coaster the ddvd/cd :)
[01:42] <Lathiat> notably annoying when that was your last cd :)
[01:42] <Nafallo> hehe, indeed
[01:42] <Nafallo> I usually don't burn stuff ;-)
[01:42] <Lathiat> grumble, java exam soon
[01:42] <Nafallo> I'm out of media :-P
[01:43] <Nafallo> hmm, breezy-live is stable atm?
[01:43] <Lathiat> Nafallo: http://penguins.squaa.org/waix.ipac/waix.ipac-day.png (ee that big yello wspike on the right? :)
[01:43] <Nafallo> lol
[01:45] <Lathiat> sighand its raining and i have to get the bus
[01:48] <Nafallo> yay!
[01:48] <Nafallo> seb really fixed the bug :-)
[02:27] <tseng> jdub: did you ever package ifolder
[03:02] <jdub> tseng: mmm, long time ago, but it was a hideous messs
[03:03] <jdub> tseng: todd gave them a 2x4 on how to lay out their software
[03:03] <jdub> tseng: might be better now, dunno
[03:03] <tseng> jdub: ok..
[03:03] <tseng> jdub: it is still alot of work it looks like
[03:03] <tseng> jdub: 4 packages
[03:30] <squinn> Hi, maybe you can help me out with something.
[03:30] <squinn> Does anyone in here know what burning software is to be shipped with Breezy?
[03:32] <ogra> squinn, nautilus and serpentine
[03:32] <jdub> hrm, where is fabio's 2.6.12-2.1 kernel
[03:32] <jdub> build logs say it built
[03:32] <ogra> oh, did it fail ?
[03:32] <ogra> hmm
[03:32] <jdub> no
[03:32] <jdub> build logs say it built :)
[03:33] <ogra> archive script ?
[03:34] <squinn> Question #2
[03:34] <squinn> Is there a way to just look at last reported bugs on Bugzilla?
[03:34] <ogra> squinn, yes....
[03:35] <ogra> the detailed search offers a time range
[03:35] <squinn> Didn't notice that, okay, thanks.
[03:37] <ogra> night all
[03:40] <tseng> bye ogra 
[03:41] <bddebian> Gnight ogra 
[04:02] <squinn> Question.
[04:02] <squinn> Is it a possibility to have one blanket command to apt-get install every single package in a repository?
[04:02] <squinn> Like I want to apt-get install every single package in main.
[04:04] <mxpxpod> squinn: you can't do that because certain packages conflict with others
[04:04] <mxpxpod> at least, I don't think you can...
[04:05] <squinn> ah, it's alright..comp borked. yay.
[04:07] <squinn> reinstall warty, update to either hoary or breezy
[04:07] <squinn> i'm not sure
[04:07] <squinn> i may need breezy for devel work, but i could just chroot into it
[04:07] <squinn> okay, well thanks
[04:39] <dle> Greetings.  I'm an Ubuntu user.  I'm interested in becoming a package maintainer for an app not yet packaged for either Ubuntu or (afaik) Debian.  I'm wondering if I should begin this via Ubuntu or go upstream and use the debian process.  Any thoughts or recommendations?
[04:40] <jsgotangco> you can try with the MOTU team
[04:40] <jsgotangco> #ubuntu-motu
[04:40] <dle> Okay.
[04:41] <dle> Universe being the source where the two meet, I guess.
[04:42] <schweeb> universe being where anything not being part of the ubuntu main distribution goes... the software unsupported by ubuntu/canonical itself
[04:43] <dle> nod
[06:15] <fabbione> morning
[06:15] <bddebian> Hello fabbione 
[06:19] <fabbione> mdz: ping?
[06:19] <mdz> fabbione: yes?
[06:19] <fabbione> mdz: sorry. i couldn't shutdown your machine yesterday
[06:20] <fabbione> not sure if you read the /msg
[06:20] <mdz> I did, and I replied to it via /msg
[06:20] <mdz> my fault of course
[06:20] <fabbione> oh i think i lost the scrollback
[06:22] <jdub> yo fabbione 
[06:22] <fabbione> yo jdub
[06:22] <jdub> your latest kernel built correctly, but doesn't seem to be in the archive - is that right?
[06:23] <mdz> presumably it's in queue/new
[06:23] <fabbione> jdub: dunno.. i woke up 2 minutes ago
[06:23] <jdub> oh, abi change?
[06:23] <fabbione> the kernel could be in new
[06:23] <fabbione> jdub: yes.. i had to force an abi change
[06:23] <fabbione> because i couldn't verify the abi on all arches for my mistake
[06:23] <fabbione> and given that it wasn't used for d-i yet
[06:24] <fabbione> the abi change was relatively cheap
[06:26] <fabbione> mdz: mind to give it some NEW love?
[06:29] <mdz> fabbione: you were saying before that it was too much trouble to change the ABI version, and now you're doing it when it may not even be necessary?
[06:30] <jdub> mdz: so that printing stuff ends up being two new packages and a cups patch
[06:30] <mdz> jdub: if you could attach the details to PrintingRoadmap, that'd be great
[06:30] <jdub> ok
[06:31] <fabbione> mdz: it is trouble once the kernel is default and * is using it
[06:32] <fabbione> mdz: because * needs to be rebuilded
[06:32] <mdz> there is no *
[06:33] <fabbione> mdz: that's why when i realized yesterday that the ABI checker was not kicking in because of an error in debian/rules, i did bump the abi
[06:33] <fabbione> and it still needs NEW love
[06:33] <fabbione> it was either delay another day or safe upload with NEW love
[06:33] <fabbione> i opted for the latter given that * is not there
[06:40] <mdz> fabbione: with the automated ABI checker, there should be no reason to have to guess
[06:41] <fabbione> mdz: it didn't kick in properly.
[06:42] <fabbione> the ABI checker relies on some info from the changelog/control to understand if and how needs to kick in
[06:42] <fabbione> one of this info is polled wrongly
[06:42] <fabbione> there is a bug that needs fixing
[06:42] <mdz> so it has never worked?  or it only broke with this version?
[06:42] <fabbione> only for this version
[06:43] <fabbione> the error was introduced when we added the ABI num to the deb version
[06:43] <fabbione> i did fix it in some cases, but i missed a corner case
[06:43] <fabbione> that showed to be the yesterday situation
[06:44] <fabbione> basically changing deb version from 2.6.11.94 to 2.6.12
[06:44] <fabbione> the rule didn't match
[06:44] <fabbione> even if it is the same major upstream release
[06:46] <mdz> ok
[06:46] <fabbione> mdz: really... if i can avoid ABI changes i do.. with all my love
[06:47] <fabbione> (even if for the kernel side is question of running a debian/rules target ;))
[07:16] <jdub> mdz: done, probably worth asking pitti to at least review it (being hal/cups foo)
[07:17] <mdz> jdub: pitti is overloaded already; that's why he's off PrintingRoadmap
[07:17] <jdub> mdz: 'at least review' :)
[07:18] <mdz> jdub: how about having someone upstream take a look?\
[07:18] <jdub> upstream for...?
[07:18] <jdub> colin is going to propose eggcups for gnome 2.12
[07:19] <jdub> but the cups/hal/d-bus stuff crosses too many borders to have 'upstream' look at it
[07:19] <jdub> easy are not co-operative on these things
[08:05] <mpt> jdub: ping
[08:06] <jdub> mpt: pong
[08:06] <mpt> jdub: What's the next step for fixing the help situation? Do I pester shaunm, or do you, or do we pester someone else, or what? :-)
[08:07] <jdub> i think shaun's wheels are spinning at the moment because he's trying to solve problems further down the stack
[08:07] <Amaranth> mpt: shaunm might bite you, I'd suggest pestering someone else :)
[08:07] <mpt> I don't taste *that* good
[08:08] <mpt> jdub: down as in scrollkeeper?
[08:08] <jdub> replacing it, yeah
[08:08] <mpt> o
[08:09] <jdub> might be worth asking him what his timeframe for document-as-index is
[08:09] <mpt> ok
[08:09] <mpt> Amaranth: the twisty outline?
[08:09] <Amaranth> http://www.gnome.org/~martink/2005/stuff/Screenshot-nautilus-hierarchical.png
[08:10] <mpt> yah
[08:10] <mpt> Mac OS 8.0
[08:10] <Amaranth> you're a pre-OS X mac fan, you should love it :)
[08:10] <mpt> haha
[08:11] <mpt> I'll still push my "View" > "as Browser" idea to anyone who will listen
[08:11] <Amaranth> that isn't there right now?
[08:11] <Amaranth> i don't use spatial so i dunno
[08:11] <Amaranth> *groan*
[08:12] <Amaranth> i just found my long list of 'things to hack on' for last week
[08:12] <Amaranth> didn't touch a single one
[08:12] <mpt> No, to view the current folder in a browser window you have to (1) open the *parent* folder, (2) find the folder you want, (3) right-click on it and choose "Browse"
[08:12] <mpt> it's ridiculous
[08:13] <Amaranth> *boggle*
[08:13] <fabbione> hey pitti
[08:13] <pitti> Hi again
[08:13] <pitti> network failed
[08:13] <pitti> cu later, breakfast
[08:14] <mpt> People arguing whether spatial or browser is better is like people arguing whether spanners or screwdrivers are better
[08:14] <cartel_> no its like people arguing blondes or brunettes are better
[08:14] <cartel_> its whatever works for you
[08:14] <cartel_> but a silly thing like developers making lockin to spatial because they like it more is retarded
[08:15] <mpt> It's not locked in, there's a checkbox for it, but it assumes you want to use it all of the time or none of the time
[08:15] <cartel_> i strongly dislike spatial browsing
[08:15] <mpt> sometimes you need a spanner and sometimes you need a screwdriver.
[08:16] <mpt> I'm not surprised, spatial browsing is an oxymoron.
[08:16] <cartel_> sometimes you need a blonde and sometimes a brunette
[08:16] <Amaranth> users seem to want browser mode
[08:16] <Amaranth> i want OS X finder mode :)
[08:16] <cartel_> death to recycling of osX "usability"
[08:16] <cartel_> finder is a steaming pile
[08:16] <mpt> OS X Finder mode = "leave bugs unfixed for years in an attempt to stop people from using the Finder"
[08:17] <Amaranth> OS X Finder minus bugs of course
[08:17] <cartel_> mac os usability == "do it this way"
[08:17] <cartel_> kde usability == "do it your way"
[08:17] <Amaranth> mpt: it was all a conspiracy to make people really love spotlight
[08:17] <Amaranth> cartel_: kde usability == "what's usability?"
[08:17] <cartel_> mpt: blondes and brunettes...
[08:18] <Amaranth> KDE gives you a million options and leaves it up to you to figure out what they are and find the best one
[08:18] <cartel_> Amaranth: cant we just all get along
[08:18] <Amaranth> i'm sure power users love it
[08:18] <mpt> cartel_: then KDE is a skinhead wearing a blonde wig and a brunette wig and a redhead wig, on top of each other
[08:18] <cartel_> Amaranth: i suppose i can be considered a power user, but i find it intuitive
[08:19] <Zomb> Amaranth: that is okay this way. Better than Gnome fanatics that strip anything away that may be too complicated for "I just wanna print" users.
[08:19] <cartel_> i just wanna eat pie
[08:19] <mpt> mmmmm, pie
[08:19] <Amaranth> Zomb: The application should try to Do The Right Thing, not punt and offer a checkbox.
[08:20] <Zomb> Amaranth: hahaha, who defines "the right thing"?
[08:20] <cartel_> Amaranth does
[08:20] <mpt> Zomb: In theory, stopwatches and electrodes
[08:21] <mpt> In practice, stopwatches and electrodes are expensive, so people argue about it on IRC and mailing lists instead
[08:21] <Amaranth> mpt: Usability testing?
[08:21] <mpt> yup
[08:22] <Amaranth> novell... :)
[08:22] <mpt> The other thing that's expensive is implementing the multiple options to test in the first place
[08:23] <cartel_> novell hooked miguel up to a chair?
[08:23] <Amaranth> iterative design + usability testing for each iteration == $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[08:23] <cartel_> i knew it!
[08:24] <mpt> Amaranth: Even iterative design will only get you towards a local maximum on the usability graph, not towards a global one
[08:24] <Amaranth> ah, the lovely *whoosh* sound of something going over my head
[08:24] <cartel_> z00000m
[08:25] <cartel_> mpt: have you seen kde plasma project?
[08:25] <Amaranth> cartel_: vaporware
[08:25] <cartel_> Amaranth: top kde hackers are working on it
[08:26] <mpt> Amaranth: Well, imagining doing iterative improvement on something with a really non-standard interface, like (afaik) Lotus Notes or Quark XPress
[08:26] <Amaranth> cartel_: If it isn't available in usable form you can't use it in comparisons
[08:26] <cartel_> Amaranth: plasma is ~kde4
[08:26] <cartel_> Amaranth: ok, given
[08:26] <mpt> Amaranth: you'd improve it somewhat, but you wouldn't improve it nearly as much as starting off with a much better design.
[08:26] <cartel_> Amaranth: sorry
[08:26] <Amaranth> it doesn't even exist yet
[08:26] <cartel_> good point
[08:26] <mpt> cartel_: no, I haven't
[08:26] <Amaranth> mpt: ok, i sort of understand
[08:26] <mpt> Amaranth: You'd have to get worse before you got better.
[08:26] <cartel_> well as amaranth said, its vaporware at this stage
[08:27] <cartel_> is usability testing what causes osX to mutate between versions?
[08:27] <mpt> Like descending K2 before you can climb Everest
[08:27] <cartel_> rendering documentation useless?
[08:27] <mpt> cartel_: afaik, Apple disbanded their usability testing team about 2002 or so
[08:27] <Amaranth> OS X seems to be on a downward spiral
[08:27] <cartel_> mpt: k2 is significantly more difficult to climb than everest. everest is just taller
[08:27] <cartel_> (just so you know)
[08:27] <mpt> cartel_: We're talking about altitude, not difficulty :-)
[08:28] <cartel_> mpt: people climb everest and go "woohoo!" then they go to k2 and die.
[08:28] <Amaranth> they ignore their own guidelines and keep churning out weird new interfaces
[08:28] <Amaranth> like brushed metal
[08:28] <Amaranth> and now plastic
[08:28] <mpt> Yes, Apple's been on a downward spiral since about 1998
[08:29] <cartel_> but the problem was their interface has always been crap
[08:29] <cartel_> they just say its the best
[08:29] <mpt> Most geeks haven't noticed that much because they've been all "ooh, Aqua, shiny"
[08:29] <cartel_> and people buy into it
[08:29] <mpt> cartel_: Both statements are true :-)
[08:29] <Amaranth> btw, i never knew you could drag Classic finder windows to the bottom of the screen and dock them
[08:29] <cartel_> apple is 99.99% product
[08:29] <cartel_> er
[08:29] <cartel_> 99.99% marketing hype
[08:29] <cartel_> and 0.01% product
[08:29] <mpt> Amaranth: since OS 8.0, yeah
[08:29] <cartel_> is what i tell my customers
[08:30] <Amaranth> i wish i would have known that, that sounded like an awesome feature
[08:30] <mpt> Mac OS interface design jumped the shark about 8.5
[08:30] <mpt> (imho)
[08:30] <Amaranth> <--started on an Apple II, then whatever the first powerpc was
[08:30] <cartel_> its like they take everything good about freebsd out
[08:30] <cartel_> then get a bunch of developers to shit in a barrel
[08:30] <Amaranth> you can't deny that OS X is far ahead of anything we have though
[08:31] <cartel_> then they put the shit in a pretty box and people go "ooh, aah"
[08:31] <cartel_> Amaranth: in terms of what? eyecandy?
[08:31] <mpt> "In Dec. 1996, Steve Jobs returned to Apple. In 1997 Apple's Human Interface Group was disbanded. By mid 1999 the Quicktime 4.0 Player was the first Apple product to be inducted into the now defunct Interface Hall of Shame by Isys Information Architecture."
[08:31] <Treenaks> I remember the first time I used a mac classic... I suddenly knew where MS had stolen W95
[08:31] <Amaranth> mpt: qt 4 was the 'real stereo' one, wasn't it?
[08:31] <Amaranth> with the wheel volume control and all that crap?
[08:31] <HrdwrBoB> yes
[08:31] <HrdwrBoB> it's homo
[08:31] <mpt> Amaranth: yeah, the wheel volume control and the first appearance of brushed metal
[08:32] <Amaranth> btw, does anyone know is apps can still go behind the dock in the latest OS X releases?
[08:32] <cartel_> mpt: do you work in linux?
[08:32] <Amaranth> err, if apps
[08:32] <cartel_> mpt: i notice you are .nz
[08:33] <mpt> Treenaks: On the other hand, OS 8~9's 3-D appearance was copied from Win95
[08:33] <cartel_> mpt: asterisk?
[08:33] <Treenaks> mpt: yes, and gnome and kde copy bits of both :)
[08:33] <mpt> cartel_: I work for Canonical, but the stuff I do for Ubuntu is voluntary
[08:33] <Amaranth> KDE is mostly windows, gnome is mostly classic Mac OS :)
[08:33] <Amaranth> that's why i started using gnome, it was more like a mac
[08:34] <cartel_> mpt: ahh cool
[08:34] <cartel_> Amaranth: kde is windows-esque by default
[08:34] <cartel_> Amaranth: but the reality is, it is whatever you want :)
[08:34] <mpt> It's somewhat ironic that KDE is the only one that lets you have a global menu bar
[08:35] <Amaranth> cartel_: as soon as kicker stops looking like ass i might use it from time to time :)
[08:35] <Amaranth> mpt: heh, but their implementation is horrid
[08:35] <Amaranth> plus it only works for QT apps
[08:35] <cartel_> Amaranth: kicker rip. slicker is the new black
[08:35] <Lathiat> i wonder if kde works yet
[08:36] <Amaranth> Lathiat: I successfully installed kubuntu-desktop 2 days ago
[08:36] <Lathiat> last timei tried it, i ended up with a volume down onscren stuck on my display
[08:36] <cartel_> breezy?
[08:36] <Lathiat> because for some reason it thought mjy volume down key/action was being triggered
[08:36] <Amaranth> yeah
[08:36] <Lathiat> and i couldnt do anything about it
[08:36] <Lathiat> (hoary)
[08:36] <Amaranth> hey, cool
[08:36] <cartel_> yeah im loathe to upgrade even though i can help
[08:36] <Amaranth> my volume up is paste
[08:36] <Lathiat> so, i gave up even bothering to try kde
[08:36] <cartel_> (im using kubuntu here)
[08:36] <Lathiat> granted the kubuntu livecd worked
[08:37] <Lathiat> but installing kubuntu-desktopdidnt
[08:37] <Amaranth> cartel_: I successfully went from hoary to breezy with no extra hacks
[08:37] <Amaranth> today
[08:37] <Lathiat> and i also couldnt find anywhere to turn this OSD thing off
[08:37] <Lathiat> or anywhere to setup keyboard shortcuts
[08:37] <Lathiat> oranything
[08:37] <Lathiat> and it was a hard on top window, so it made it useless:)
[08:37] <Amaranth> Lathiat: all buried in kcontrol or something
[08:37] <cartel_> Amaranth: heh, im using kubuntu as my main work machine now, i cant really afford to have downtime. i can set up a breezy NX server for testing tho
[08:38] <Lathiat> cartel_: BREEZY HAS NO BUGS
[08:38] <Lathiat> LA LA LA
[08:38] <cartel_> speaking of which
[08:38] <mpt> zarro boogs
[08:38] <Lathiat> it just has rather annoying features. :)
[08:39] <Amaranth> damnit, take my root user theme so synaptic doesn't look like ass!
[08:40] <cartel_> oh yeah
[08:40] <cartel_> the no root paradigm has thrown a few people i tried to get into ubuntu
[08:40] <cartel_> the installer should have an option to set up a root account
[08:41] <mpt> why?
[08:41] <jdub> Amaranth: that should work seamlessly as long as you are not using a user-installed theme
[08:41] <cartel_> for purists
[08:41] <Lathiat> cartel_: its not needed
[08:41] <cartel_> the first thing i did was add a root user
[08:41] <Lathiat> all they have to do is sudo passwd root
[08:41] <Amaranth> jdub: i install clearlooks from source
[08:41] <jdub> cartel_: if someone knows they need a root account, they'll know enough to set it up
[08:41] <Amaranth> err, installed
[08:41] <jdub> Amaranth: there you go
[08:41] <cartel_> Lathiat: tell that to my coworker who totally owned a major isp here by hijacking sudo
[08:41] <Lathiat> cartel_: bad admin :)
[08:41] <Lathiat> cartel_: they can disable it if they like
[08:42] <cartel_> lol
[08:42] <Amaranth> wait, i deleted that install
[08:42] <Amaranth> because i wiped /
[08:42] <cartel_> if this wasnt so geeky that would be bashable
[08:42] <Lathiat> heh
[08:42] <cartel_> jdub: this is true, but a "classic root" option is nice
[08:42] <cartel_> "Do you want to create a root user now?" 
[08:43] <Amaranth> yay, synaptic doesn't look like ass anymore
[08:43] <Lathiat> bad
[08:43] <jdub> cartel_: that question would mean absolutely nothing to 99% of users
[08:43] <Lathiat> read what jdub said earlier :)
[08:43] <cartel_> because in a way you are treating your users like dell does
[08:43] <cartel_> they are too stupid to be trusted with an administrator account on their own pc
[08:44] <Lathiat> wrong
[08:44] <cartel_> just my thoughts
[08:44] <HrdwrBoB> correct and also incorrect
[08:44] <jdub> cartel_: if someone knows they need root, they can easily find out how to re-enable it
[08:44] <Lathiat> 'sudo' replaces that
[08:44] <HrdwrBoB> the users don't need another account, and they have full access via sudo
[08:44] <Amaranth> dell gives their users root by default
[08:44] <cartel_> remember also, many users are used to the administrator paradigm from windows
[08:44] <Amaranth> well, Administrator
[08:45] <Amaranth> windows has sudo too
[08:45] <Amaranth> they call it Run As
[08:45] <cartel_> "huh? no admin account?"
[08:45] <cartel_> its also not clear in the installer that you sudo to get root
[08:45] <jdub> it's very clear
[08:45] <jdub> it's stated very, very clearly
[08:45] <HrdwrBoB> cartel_: you mean aside from the message that explicitly states it
[08:45] <HrdwrBoB> that you didn't read
[08:45] <jdub> in the installer
[08:45] <cartel_> ive had a few people i gave the cd to install and think they skipped the part for setting root password
[08:45] <cartel_> then reinstall
[08:45] <jdub> they didn't read
[08:45] <cartel_> then tell me the installer was broke
[08:45] <jdub> that's fine
[08:46] <cartel_> HrdwrBoB: no, ive read d-i enough for one lifetime unfortunately :p
[08:46] <Amaranth> tseng: could i get the inotify'ed muine goodness from you again?
[08:46] <Lathiat> the installer does tell you
[08:46] <jdub> there's no point muddying it up for everyone else because a small percentage of people don't read and care about using root directly
[08:46] <Lathiat> so its their fault for not reading
[08:46] <cartel_> admittedly i dont read it anymore i do it by feel :p
[08:47] <cartel_> neither do my coworkers
[08:47] <cartel_> hehe
[08:47] <cartel_> but we are all hardcore debian vets
[08:48] <cartel_> perhaps a notice: "to enable classic root functionality, type: sudo passwd"
[08:48] <jdub> dude
[08:48] <jdub> we make it clear how to use sudo
[08:48] <jdub> there's no point encouraging people to re-enable root, however
[08:48] <Treenaks> cartel_: a) it's on the wiki; b) your coworkers should read
[08:48] <jsgotangco> +1
[08:48] <jdub> those who need it know it
[08:48] <cartel_> heh
[08:49] <jdub> those who don't, don't care
[08:49] <cartel_> hmm
[08:49] <torkel> and everyone else does sudo su :-)
[08:49] <Amaranth> eww
[08:49] <jdub> sudo -i in hoary :-)
[08:49] <cartel_> yeah question
[08:50] <cartel_> if there is no root at all
[08:50] <Amaranth> sudo -i?
[08:50] <cartel_> why have /root?
[08:50] <Amaranth> i always do sudo -s -H
[08:50] <jdub> there is a root account
[08:50] <jdub> it is locked
[08:50] <jdub> when you sudo -i, you are switching to the root account
[08:50] <jdub> you need /root
[08:50] <cartel_> so no changes made to roots environment via sudo or whatever alter /root?
[08:50] <jdub> when you boot with single, you are using the root account
[08:50] <jdub> you need /root
[08:50] <cartel_> but you dont
[08:51] <cartel_> you've removed the root paradigm and replaced it with sudo
[08:51] <jdub> dude
[08:51] <jdub> there is no paradigm here
[08:51] <jdub> there is no replacement
[08:51] <cartel_> and you're saying that people in the know should know
[08:51] <jdub> the root account exists, but it is locked
[08:51] <jdub> "enabling" root is merely a matter of setting the password (thus unlocking it)
[08:52] <jdub> you can't say "root doesn't exist" - that isn't true
[08:52] <cartel_> at the very least, load the profile from the current user when doing -i
[08:52] <jdub> ah, dude, read the man page
[08:52] <jdub> that's almost entirely what -i intends to avoid
[08:52] <cartel_> but you dont want people using /root
[08:53] <infinity> Letting your environment leak to root processes is a rather bad idea.
[08:53] <cartel_> i dont get it
[08:53] <jdub> cartel_: /root has nothing to do with it
[08:53] <cartel_> roots profile is in /root yes
[08:54] <jdub> we lock the root account so you can't directly log in to it - it has no password
[08:54] <jdub> when you type "sudo blah", you are running blah *as root*
[08:54] <cartel_> i know this 
[08:54] <jdub> it's not magic privilege land
[08:54] <Amaranth> should i consider http://dev.realistanew.com/aboutubuntu.png to be a bug?
[08:55] <Amaranth> (there is no title for the selected topic)
[08:55] <jdub> Amaranth: yeah
[08:55] <Amaranth> hmm
[08:55] <Amaranth> now to figure out if i should file it under yelp or gnome-panel
[08:56] <cartel_> so its not that ubuntu doesnt use root, its just that the installer configures sudoers
[08:56] <jdub> Amaranth: ubuntu-docs
[08:56] <cartel_> and doesnt set root pw
[08:56] <cartel_> thats the only difference other than init is patched to allow logins via sudo
[08:56] <cartel_> for single user mode
[08:56] <cartel_> correct?
[08:57] <jdub> that's sulogin, nowt to do with sudo
[08:57] <HrdwrBoB> but yes
[08:57] <cartel_> sorry sulogin
[08:57] <HrdwrBoB> basically
[08:57] <Amaranth> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7454
[08:57] <Amaranth> that's odd
[08:59] <whiprush> jdub: fridge!
[09:00] <torkel> jdub: did we (maswan and I) ever get any response to our kerberos, ldap, afs (and lustre) requests?
[09:00] <cartel_> ooh
[09:00] <cartel_> what requests?
[09:00] <cartel_> kerberising ubuntu?
[09:01] <whiprush> jdub: hey did you respond to that guy that mailed us about an ubuntu newsletter? If not I can do so now.
[09:03] <jsgotangco> sabdfl, hi
[09:03] <whiprush> hi sabdfl 
[09:03] <sabdfl> morning all
[09:03] <Treenaks> hi sabdfl 
[09:06] <Amaranth> hi
[09:06] <fabbione> hey sabdfl 
[09:06] <pitti> Morning sabdfl 
[09:06] <Amaranth> um, was I the first member to ever be accepted without actually being at the CC meeting? :)
[09:06] <Lathiat> now why doesn't everyone greet me like that
[09:06] <whiprush> hi Lathiat!
[09:06] <cartel_> you're not important enough
[09:06] <pitti> Good monring Lathiat, how are you?
[09:06] <cartel_> whois sabdfl?
[09:07] <cartel_> upl?
[09:07] <cartel_> ada?
[09:07] <Lathiat> pitti, whiprush :)
[09:07] <sabdfl> cartel_: me ;-)
[09:07] <fabbione> cartel_: god of ubuntu?
[09:07] <cartel_> kekeke?
[09:07] <cartel_> s/?/!
[09:07] <whiprush> cartel_: self appointed dictator for life.
[09:07] <sabdfl> fabbione: that would be mdz
[09:07] <pitti> benevolent!
[09:07] <whiprush> oops, missed that part. :)
[09:07] <sabdfl> whiprush: it comes and goes
[09:07] <cartel_> mws? (it is w isnt it?)
[09:07] <fabbione> sabdfl: right :) do you prefer God of Ubuntu's Gods ;)
[09:07] <whiprush> geg
[09:08] <whiprush> heh, even.
[09:08] <sabdfl> r, sadly
[09:08] <sabdfl> for Wichard
[09:08] <cartel_> lol
[09:08] <jsgotangco> ?
[09:08] <cartel_> file a bug report on your name
[09:09] <crimsun> bugzilla tied to a councillor? I dare not think of the ramifications.
[09:09] <Amaranth> MOTU sounds cooler than sabdfl :)
[09:09] <cartel_> torkel: im genuinely interested in ubuntus direction considering kerberos/ldap
[09:09] <cartel_> torkel: please elaborate
[09:09] <whiprush> torkel: have you had a chance to go over the specs on udu.wiki.ubuntu.com?
[09:10] <whiprush> er, I mean cartel_ 
[09:10] <cartel_> torkel: since i wanted to make a strike force with the goal of single signon for debian
[09:11] <cartel_> whiprush: cant find
[09:11] <cartel_> whiprush: im grepping for ldap
[09:11] <whiprush> sec
[09:11] <whiprush> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/WindowsInteroperability
[09:12] <whiprush> probably a good place to start
[09:12] <cartel_> oh
[09:12] <cartel_> pff
[09:12] <Amaranth> why do people troll uncontrollably whenever mono is mentioned?
[09:13] <whiprush> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkAuthentication also
[09:13] <cartel_> whiprush: samba 3 already participates completely in active directory
[09:13] <infinity> cartel_ : As a client.
[09:13] <cartel_> whiprush: most of this stuff is doable immediately no need for samba 4
[09:13] <infinity> cartel_ : Not as a server.
[09:13] <cartel_> infinity: yes participate implies client
[09:13] <torkel> cartel_: basically we were asking if it is possible to get kerberos, ldap _and_ AFS supported i ubuntu main (and hopefully at least the kernel part of Lustre)
[09:13] <cartel_> why the hell do you want afs
[09:13] <whiprush> heh, I was about to say "hang out until infinity is around".
[09:14] <cartel_> have you ever experienced the hellish world of afs?
[09:14] <cartel_> skip afs and go to gfs
[09:14] <torkel> cartel_: what else do you want to run as a distributed filesystem?
[09:14] <whiprush> gfs is in breezy already
[09:15] <torkel> cartel_: yes. We are running it since some years (and DFS before that)
[09:15] <cartel_> afs is insufferably slow and has very large shortcomings
[09:15] <infinity> whiprush, cartel_ : I'm about to kick WindowsInterop into high gear in the next week.  It's a LowPrio task for me, but I intend to squeeze as much hacking/testing into my gap times as possible, so we'll see where this spec goes pretty soon.
[09:16] <infinity> whiprush, cartel_ : Some stuff is stuff I see as "must have" for breezy, but a lot of other things probably won't happen without community hacking/input.
[09:16] <cartel_> infinity, torkel, whiprush: i was hoping you were going to package the recently released netscape ds 
[09:16] <cartel_> because if you want an ldap server, you want multi master replication if you can get it right
[09:16] <Amaranth> ha
[09:16] <Amaranth> does it even build?
[09:17] <cartel_> and exop schema updates
[09:17] <cartel_> Amaranth: on fedora
[09:17] <cartel_> :/
[09:17] <cartel_> Amaranth: actually i havent given it a shot yet
[09:17] <whiprush> infinity: cool. NetworkManager has support for the cisco vpn stuff according to thom (he hasn't built it yet though), maybe they'll get around to doing pptp for it.
[09:17] <cartel_> Amaranth: if i did, i would want to debianise it from scratch
[09:17] <cartel_> Amaranth: which is likely a very masochistic thing to do
[09:17] <Amaranth> it'll probably be completely rewritten over 5 years as NuServer then have the name changed to something else
[09:18] <whiprush> infinity: that friend of mine I've been meaning to get ahold of you has built the Fedora DS. 
[09:18] <cartel_> its fedora directory server
[09:18] <whiprush> it's not trivial unfortunately.
[09:18] <cartel_> whiprush: good news!
[09:18] <cartel_> whiprush: bad news!
[09:18] <infinity> whiprush : Yeah, I cought that in scrollback.  I happen to have a Cisco VPN here to test with, so I'll play with it shortly.  Doing PPTP should be simple, since we can support it as a PPP-type connection.
[09:18] <Amaranth> cartel_: I was making fun of the last dump of code from netscape.
[09:19] <cartel_> anyway, hacking up some kind of ldap/kerberos infrastructure that you can automagically promote (sorry using windows server terminology) to would be ++cool
[09:19] <Amaranth> doublepluscool
[09:20] <cartel_> Amaranth knows newspeak
[09:20] <Amaranth> minlove?
[09:20] <infinity> cartel_ : I have some ambitious plans for that sort of thing and more.  I need to make some time to sit down and write more detailed specs, I think, so people can contribute in areas I just plain don't have time for.
[09:20] <cartel_> mini
[09:21] <whiprush> our LocoTeam has started working on a gnome kerberos ticket manager if anyone is interested: https://anthracite.aca.oakland.edu/websvn/listing.php?repname=Kerberos%20Ticket%20Manager&path=%2F&rev=0&sc=0
[09:21] <cartel_> infinity: cool, thats something i am into. well i dunno for how long, im sure once i get into hardcore identity management ill want out fast
[09:21] <infinity> Man, if Microsoft marketing knew what I did with my Partner status, they'd cry.
[09:21] <Treenaks> infinity: what do you do with it? :)
[09:21] <pitti> sjoerd: ping
[09:22] <cartel_> i can already do single sign on ads clients
[09:22] <infinity> Treenaks : Short term, make competing OSs work better with Windows, Long term, make them replace Windows.
[09:22] <infinity> Treenaks : I can't see how they're keen on either of those. :)
[09:22] <cartel_> but a server... 
[09:22] <Treenaks> infinity: ;)
[09:22] <torkel> whiprush: re NetworkAuthentication, maybe a note that Kerberos 4 should be dropped as it is unsecure at design level
[09:22] <cartel_> ;)
[09:23] <whiprush> torkel: the spec is public, add/change what you need, I'm pretty kerberos stupid so I have no idea what you mean. :)
[09:23] <cartel_> infinity: did you eventually get keysigned?
[09:24] <infinity> cartel_ : By whom?
[09:24] <cartel_> infinity: a dd
[09:24] <torkel> whiprush: http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/623217
[09:24] <cartel_> infinity: i see the fingerprint in your whois
[09:24] <infinity> cartel_ : ...
[09:24] <infinity> cartel_ : I got my key signed by a DD about 4 years ago... Then become one shortly thereafter...
[09:25] <cartel_> infinity: then i see back in 2002 you were having problems getting signed
[09:25] <infinity> cartel_ : Are you confusing me with someone else? :)
[09:25] <torkel> whiprush: so you mean I have to remeber if I ever created a wiki account? :-)
[09:25] <cartel_> ahh :)
[09:25] <cartel_> getting signed is one of my goals for this year
[09:25] <whiprush> torkel: heh, well, things like that go with the territory. :)
[09:26] <infinity> cartel_ : Well, come visit me in Melbourne for a beer, and I'll sign yours.
[09:26] <cartel_> tho i think i might have problems because vorlon thinks i am a bot 
[09:28] <pitti> Hi carlos
[09:29] <carlos> morning
[09:29] <cartel_> alright, time to get some kai and head home after another 10 hour day
[09:29] <torkel> whiprush: KTM looks interesting
[09:29] <cartel_> later
[09:30] <whiprush> torkel: currently three students are working on it, so if you've got expertise in the area, we'd appreciate it. :)
[09:31] <torkel> whiprush: well, I can probably come up some ideas to give them more work :-)
[09:31] <Amaranth> wow, i almost got redhat's system-config-services running
[09:31] <whiprush> Good Enough(tm)
[09:31] <Amaranth> i got a flash of GUI this time at least :)
[09:32] <Amaranth> http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~brejc8/temp/sevices.png
[09:32] <Amaranth> would you guys be interested in something like this?
[09:32] <whiprush> infinity: is there anything in the interop spec that you would like me to research?
[09:33] <Amaranth> (i can do some deuglify work on it)
[09:33] <whiprush> some of them are kind of impossible:  "Find a GUI that allows management of samba server features, like promotion / demotion of Domain Controllers."
[09:34] <infinity> whiprush : A lot of it is kinda hand-wavey... It was just people babbling at a table and jbailey furiously taking notes, afterall. :)
[09:34] <infinity> whiprush : And since it was LowPrio, it didn't get a lot of love afterward.
[09:34] <infinity> whiprush : I'll try to go over it in the next week or so and spruce it up.
[09:34] <infinity> whiprush : If you want to pester me via mail/IRC next week as a reminder, I won't mind terribly much. :)
[09:34] <whiprush> okey
[09:35] <whiprush> I have this strange feeling that for all the samba stuff you're just going to get more "here's my script for setting it up".
[09:36] <Amaranth> wait, this is what BUM does
[09:37] <infinity> whiprush : <shrug>... Some stuff can be handled fine by weird scripts.  Some stuff is going to need some real development time (that won't be done by me, -ENOTIME)
[09:37] <infinity> whiprush : And some stuff is just a matter of someone taking the already working pieces and making them work together.  That's the stuff that's more realistic for breezy.
[09:39] <torkel> whiprush: from where can I check out KTM? instead of fetching it via websvn
[09:39] <whiprush> well, I think the vpn stuff will make it into NetworkManager, I don't think there's much value in moving to MS-native formats as a default, and the samba stuff we're in the same boat as everyone else, waiting for for 4.
[09:40] <whiprush> torkel: we just started two weeks ago, mail me at jorge@whiprush.org and I can link you up with the guys working on it. For now I must sleep though
[09:40] <whiprush> nite everyone
[09:40] <torkel> whiprush: sure. And nite!
[09:42] <\sh> morning
[09:47] <sivang> morning all
[09:47] <pitti> Hi sivang, hi \sh
[09:48] <sivang> pitti: Hi martin, what's up?
[09:49] <pitti> nothing really exciting by now
[09:51] <\sh> to early
[09:52] <\sh> but actually i solved my connection problems with my jabber server
[09:57] <pitti> infinity: mind if I take #9884 (cupsys merge) from you?
[09:58] <infinity> pitti : I never uploaded that?  I suck.
[09:58] <pitti> infinity: oh, you already merged?
[09:58] <infinity> pitti : Take it if you want it.  He changed patch systems, and the merge is hideously broken, so watch out for that. :)
[09:58] <pitti> infinity: Kenshi applied many of our patches and I want to do a bug fix
[09:59] <infinity> pitti : I think I have it mostly-done lying on my hard drive here.
[09:59] <pitti> infinity: I want to merge manually
[09:59] <pitti> infinity: there's no point in taking MOM outut (most outputs with a _debian.dropped are worthless)
[09:59] <pitti> infinity: can I get your version for a start?
[10:01] <infinity> pitti : Looks like I just got as far as filtering the worthless diff from MOM into something more manageable, then got distracted by something shinier.
[10:01] <infinity> pitti : So you may as well go ahead and start clean, if you were doing it by hand anyway.
[10:01] <pitti> infinity: ok, then I merge manually
[10:01] <infinity> pitti : I just recall filtering out 3MB worth of uuencoded scariness. :)
[10:01] <pitti> hehe
[10:02] <thom> morning
[10:02] <pitti> Hi thom!
[10:03] <daniels> morning mr may
[10:04] <infinity> thom : I need to go out tomorrow and take a picture for you.  There's a restaurant 3 blocks from my house called "Thomay"
[10:04] <thom> infinity: rock! my fame is widening
[10:06] <daniels> thom: they've always been a little bit weird in armadale
[10:07] <\sh> ??? what's up now
[10:07] <\sh> dpkg-source: error: unrecognised file suffix `.tar'
[10:07] <\sh> Entpack-Befehl dpkg-source -x gdome2-xslt_0.0.6-7.dsc fehlgeschlagen.
[10:08] <thom> you're trying to use a native package with a debian/ubuntu revision
[10:08] <\sh> no
[10:08] <\sh> it's in our tree
[10:08] <\sh> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/g/gdome2-xslt/
[10:10] <daniels> \sh: yes, and it's broken
[10:11] <daniels> \sh: if it has a non-native version (i.e. 1.2.3-4, x.y.z-a), it needs to have a .orig.tar.gz
[10:11] <daniels> the only case where you can't have a .orig.tar.gz is where it's Debian-native, so you just have 1.2.3 or x.y.z
[10:11] <daniels> i don't know how this package got in anyway
[10:12] <\sh> daniels: the dsc files mentions the native file ... and the other versions are looking the same
[10:12] <thom> \sh: it used to allowed, although it was nearly always a mistake
[10:12] <thom> no it's not
[10:15] <\sh> well, i don't mind a native package or whatever, problem is, i have to work with this package...if it's not working with me, well, then I have a coffee and a cigarette first :)
[10:15] <\sh> brb
[10:19] <pitti> Hi Keybuk 
[10:19] <Keybuk> mornin
[10:19] <daniels> sup scotty
[10:19] <pitti> Keybuk: in MOM, would it be feasible to always prefer Debian changes over Ubuntu changes?
[10:20] <Keybuk> only apply the patch one-way?
[10:20] <Keybuk> or do you mean something else?
[10:20] <pitti> Keybuk: in most cases where there is a large debian_dropped it makes the output rather useless and requires manual merging
[10:20] <Keybuk> right
[10:20] <pitti> Keybuk: yes, only try to apply the Ubuntu changes to the new debian package, and not the other way round
[10:20] <Keybuk> it tries it both ways
[10:20] <Keybuk> and gives you the smallest dropped
[10:21] <pitti> Keybuk: although the Debian dropped might be smaller, it should always be a goal to prefer the Debian solution
[10:21] <pitti> if it does the same thing in a different way
[10:21] <pitti> (IMHO)
[10:21] <pitti> other folks might have different experiences, though
[10:22] <Keybuk> nah, it varies on a source-by-source basis which works best
[10:22] <elmo> PEOPLE
[10:22] <pitti> elmo!
[10:22] <elmo> uploads named 1buntu1 DO NOT STOP THE AUTOSYNCer
[10:22] <elmo> OUR NAME IS 'ubuntu'.  THAT IS ALL
[10:22] <Keybuk> onebuntu ... that's a great derivative name
[10:22] <infinity> Keybuk : "smallest" is relative... In some cases (*cough*cupsys*cough*), #MB versus 3.1MB is both "really big".
[10:22] <daniels> elmo: what about -1ubunto1?
[10:23] <Keybuk> infinity: patches welcome ;)
[10:23] <daniels> o/~ you can't stop the autosync
[10:23] <Lathiat> heh i have a friend that keeps saying ubunto
[10:23] <infinity> s/#MB/3MB/
[10:23] <fabbione> elmo: morning dude..
[10:23] <pitti> infinity: in fact the big difference is the result of moving a big uuencoded file into debian/local
[10:23] <infinity> pitti : Yeah, I noticed.
[10:23] <pitti> infinity: I think I will just leave the Debian location for now, otherwise this will never end
[10:24] <pitti> elmo: which package was that?
[10:24] <infinity> pitti : Well, if you hand-merge your changes to the new Debian version, our patch becomes... Tiny.
[10:25] <pitti> right :-)
[10:25] <infinity> pitti : Since he incorporated mst of your stuff, just not all of it.
[10:25] <pitti> infinity: well, not tiny, but manageable
[10:25] <infinity> Pretty dang small.
[10:25] <infinity> (The switching of patch systems between merges also messes with one's head in a seriously nasty ways)
[10:25] <pitti> infinity: according to the changelog, Debian wants to deroot it soon, too, *then* it will become small
[10:25] <infinity> s/in a/in/
[10:26] <infinity> pitti : Ping him about it.  He'll probably deroot it right now, if you remind him.
[10:26] <infinity> pitti : I'm sure he just didn't want to do it pre-Sarge.
[10:26] <pitti> "User 'cupsys' feature and Browsing feature aren't applied at this time.
[10:26] <pitti>      They are post-Sarge things"
[10:26] <pitti> right
[10:26] <elmo> pitti: devilspie
[10:26] <pitti> ok
[10:27] <mpt> ffs, who decided that Ctrl+Z in Gaim should be Minimize rather than Undo
[10:28] <torkel> someone used to emacs?
[10:31] <mpt> This is why Gnome should have decided on Alt rather than Ctrl for its keyboard commands
[10:31] <mpt> then the emacs people could happily use their Ctrl+ combos without getting in the way of the other 99.8%
[10:31] <mpt> anyway
[10:31] <daniels> mpt: well-argued
[10:32] <Lathiat> mpt: ^W not being delete-word in most things (being close window) is also extremely irritating
[10:32] <mpt> (not to mention that Alt+whatever is a lot easier to reach than Ctrl+whatever for the sort of people who don't know how to switch Ctrl and Caps Lock)
[10:33] <mpt> Amaranth: If bug 7454 is the same as the bug you see, attach your screenshot to the bug report, and I'll nag kiko to reopen it when he's awake
[10:33] <infinity> I have my pinkie trained to live on the Ctrl key...
[10:33] <mpt> Lathiat: I can imagine
[10:34] <Lathiat> this is part of the reason why i dont use x-chat :)
[10:34] <fabbione> maswan: ping?
[10:34] <Lathiat> -h
[10:34] <Amaranth> mpt: done
[10:35] <mpt> ta
[10:41] <maswan> fabbione: pong?
[10:43] <pitti> infinity: after cleanup and throwing out everything Kenshi already applied, we are down to 1392 patch lines; still not "tiny" :-)
[10:43] <pitti> Hi seb128 
[10:44] <seb128> hey pitti 
[10:44] <infinity> pitti : I thought I had it smaller than that, but maybe not..
[10:45] <pitti> infinity: still. 58 kB vs. 3 MB is an improvement :-)
[10:45] <mpt> infinity: Were there were some spare bounty hunters wanting to work on GraphicalConfigTools? Perhaps they could be put to work on the domain controller and VPN stuff
[10:45] <infinity> mpt : I think the VPN stuff will be mostly covered by NM, if we can get all the magic right.
[10:46] <infinity> mpt : DC guis probably need someone to spec out requirement before I let loose the bounty hunters on them.
[10:46] <fabbione> maswan: is buttercup down?
[10:46] <fabbione> maswan: i can't ssh to ti
[10:46] <fabbione> it even
[10:46] <mpt> infinity: I'd love to do that, but first I'd need to understand the problem :-)
[10:47] <maswan> fabbione: it seems to apparently have died for some reason
[10:47] <fabbione> maswan: ah ok
[10:47] <fabbione> can you resurrect it?
[10:47] <infinity> mpt : As I stated up there <points>, I intend to give WindowsInterop some TLC next week, so I'll see about speccing some stuff and getting bounty approval for some things.
[10:47] <maswan> hmm.. the console doesn't respond either
[10:48] <fabbione> that's bad...
[10:48] <maswan> ok, so some keyturning later on, then it'll hopefully boot ok
[10:48] <infinity> mpt : Anything that's in the "stuff to mangle samba 3 configs" realm will probably just get ignored, cause I don't want to bounty that sort of work when we'd end up throwing a bunch of it out for samba 4...
[10:48] <mpt> fairy nuff
[10:48] <fabbione> maswan: no hurry please :)
[10:48] <fabbione> maswan: we are in really good shape :)
[10:48] <maswan> fabbione: :)
[10:49] <infinity> mpt : But I might consider speccing some bounties for samba4 tools.  I could package the current devel branches so people can play with them.
[10:49] <fabbione> maswan: yesterday buildd'
[10:49] <fabbione> maswan: yesterday buildd's where idling for the first time in a year or so
[10:49] <maswan> fabbione: neat :)
[10:49] <fabbione> yeah so i gave back the 800 pkgs in dep-wait/FTBFS :P
[10:50] <fabbione> we don't want them to cool down.. do we? :P
[10:50] <Keybuk> mdz: can I have editbugs privilege, or can we get an account just for mom? :p
[10:50] <maswan> heh. of course not. :)
[10:51] <infinity> Keybuk : An account just for MOM would be nice anyway, to separate you from the tool.
[10:51] <fabbione> infinity: why? 
[10:51] <fabbione> do we really care when Keybuk files a bug? :P
[10:51] <infinity> fabbione : Just cause? :0
[10:52] <Keybuk> actually, it may be ok
[10:52] <Keybuk> it looks like I can still change aliases
[10:53] <doko> Keybuk: does [hurd-any, netbsd-any]  work in build deps?
[10:53] <Keybuk> actually
[10:53] <Keybuk> I can change any alias I added
[10:53] <Keybuk> which is probably enough for mom
[10:53] <Keybuk> doko: no, not yet
[10:53] <Keybuk> it will do
[10:54] <infinity> doko : And even when dpkg likes it, sbuild won't.  (But I can implement it in a jiffy, once I know the spec)
[10:54] <infinity> Keybuk : Will the inverse also be implemented? (arm-any, mips-any)?
[10:54] <Mithrandir> infinity: [any-any] ? ;-)
[10:54] <Keybuk> yes
[10:55] <doko> well, []  would be interesting as well
[10:55] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: any-any would probably "work", but just means the same as "any" does't it :p
[10:56] <infinity> Keybuk : When you get dpkg-dev supporting these features, can you ping me via mail, so I can make sure sbuild is happy with them as well?
[10:56] <Keybuk> infinity: sure
[10:56] <infinity> Keybuk : And probably smack mvo to make sure apt likes them.
[10:56] <doko> Keybuk: are negations planned in architecture fields? i.e. Architecture: !s390
[10:56] <Keybuk> doko: architecture fields are interesting
[10:56] <Keybuk> they don't really do anything right now
[10:58] <infinity> (which is one of the reasons for Packages-arch-specific existing)
[10:58] <Keybuk> I thought that was more just elmo being a control freak :p
[10:59] <infinity> Keybuk : Well, there are a few reasons.  But ANAIS (architecture not allowed in source) is one of them.
[10:59] <Keybuk> so I'm not really sure what to do about the architecture field
[11:05] <Keybuk> maybe I should harass buildd admins and get them to tell me what they want from it
[11:06] <infinity> I sure know how much we love harassment.
[11:09] <infinity> I'm not even sure what can be done at this point.  If you have dpkg-deb --build error out when the arch doesn't match, then you break higher level packaging tools calling it.
[11:09] <infinity> So the best you can do is just print a warning "not building package foo for arch bar", and exit 0.
[11:22] <Keybuk> well, right now it's used by dpkg-gencontrol to do that warning
[11:22] <Keybuk> "expected to see X in this changes file" vs "didn't expect to see X in this changes file"
[11:32] <trulux> tseng: ping
[11:54] <tseng> trulux: pong.
[11:54] <Nafallo> tseng: morning :-)
[11:54] <tseng> heya Nafallo 
[11:54] <trulux> tseng: just talked to nohar and decided to put the SSP "poc" at http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/poc-nox/ssp-poc-2005.tar.gz
[11:54] <Nafallo> tseng: does muine work for you since yesterdays dbus update? :-)
[11:55] <tseng> trulux: ah hah
[11:55] <tseng> Nafallo: didnt try this, no
[11:55] <tseng> trulux: what does etoh have to say?
[11:56] <trulux> tseng: as everytime, nothing
[11:56] <trulux> tseng: nohar didn't receive anything from him
[11:56] <tseng> hm of course
[11:56] <tseng> "double-injection"
[11:57] <tseng> pappy always thought you could just brute-force a canary on one pass
[11:59] <tseng> thanks trulux.
[12:00] <trulux> pappy- is on Malibu most of the time and well, I don't care on what he says 'cos it makes sense in a reall random percentage of the times
[12:01] <trulux> tseng: I have notices about a non published subversion poc that bypasses SSP
[12:07] <fabbione> elmo: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libc6-dev-ppc64
[12:07] <fabbione> can you please install it in davis/breezy chroot?
[12:36] <jdub> http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/cmar?entry=ubuntu
[12:38] <jdub> http://dunnage.blogspot.com/2005/06/ubuntu-on-freenode.html
[12:38] <jdub> ^ heh
[12:39] <Nafallo> wonderful :-)
[12:39] <Lathiat> heh
[12:39] <fabbione> maswan: if you can't repower the machine within the next hour, just leave it turned off until monday...
[12:40] <fabbione> maswan: i am going soon to leave for the weened
[12:40] <fabbione> weekend
[12:40] <zul> but its only thursday 
[12:40] <zul> slacker!
[12:40] <fabbione> zul: tsk! i took one day off
[12:40] <zul> hehe
[12:41] <torkel> zul: it's holiday tomorrow :-)
[12:41] <zul> oh....slackers!
[12:41] <maswan> fabbione: sure, I'll actually go over and repower it.. oh. wait! it's a sun! I forgot, since it was running debian.
[12:41] <maswan> huh? no response? this is really broken then. :/
[12:42] <fabbione> maswan: i have seen that here too
[12:42] <fabbione> i think it's a kernel bug :(
[12:42] <fabbione> (the serial thing)
[12:42] <fabbione> but without 2.6 i can't build
[12:42] <jordi> jdub: is that BOF from UDU regarding IRC still being "developed"? :)
[12:42] <maswan> fabbione: Oh, well. I'm going over now anyway.
[12:43] <fabbione> maswan: thanks
[12:43] <maswan> jdub: hey, answer torkel? :)
[12:46] <jdub> maswan: hrm?
[12:47] <torkel> jdub: kerberos, afs, ldap (lustre)...
[12:47] <jdub> torkel: yo
[12:47] <torkel> jdub: you never got back to us
[12:48] <jdub> torkel: yes, jbailey-gcc (gcc?) was talking to you guys about that
[12:49] <jdub> torkel: i'll catch up with jbailey about it, see where it's at
[12:49] <torkel> jdub: yeah, and we sent a mail with more details, but nothing happened after that
[12:49] <torkel> jdub: great
[12:51] <jsgotangco> night all
[12:52] <Nafallo> night jsgotangco 
[01:04] <maswan> fabbione:  13:04:10 up 15 min,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00
[01:05] <fabbione> maswan: great thanks
[01:23] <jdub> fabbione: cluster SWEEET! :)
[01:23] <Lathiat> hehe just saw that
[01:23] <Lathiat> whats ocfs2 like?
[01:25] <torkel> cluster nah, unless it is on Top500 it is not a cluster... :-)
[01:26] <fabbione> jdub: dude.. i told you i won a big battle :)
[01:32] <jdub> /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.12-2-686/scripts/gcc-version.sh: line 11: gcc-3.4: command not found
[01:32] <jdub> fabbione: ^
[01:33] <fabbione> jdub: apt-get update && apt-get install kernel-package gcc-3.4
[01:33] <fabbione> you should check the build-deps once in a while and not just run make build :)
[01:34] <jdub> i'm building Random Module :)
[01:40] <ogra> torkel, fabbione _is_ in the top 500
[01:40] <ogra> (even if its only the top 500 best italian cooks in denmark ;) )
[01:40] <Nafallo> hehe
[01:40] <fabbione> ahahha
[01:40] <ogra> :)
[01:41] <Lathiat> hmm, gnome-cups-manager isborked
[01:41] <Lathiat> all columns of a print job come up as "Printing: job-printing"
[01:41] <doko> elmo: please sync ccache from unstable
[01:41] <torkel> ogra: :-)
[01:42] <pitti> Lathiat: can you please file a bug? assign it to me, please
[01:42] <Lathiat> pitti: okie
[01:43] <Lathiat> hrm, now it wont print at all
[01:43] <Lathiat> (from epiphany, test page works)
[01:52] <Kamion> fabbione: is anyone doing l-r-m for 2.6.12?
[01:53] <Kamion> fabbione: i.e. should I temporarily drop it from linux-meta?
[01:53] <fabbione> Kamion: i am not doing it.. that's daniels' toy :P
[01:53] <fabbione> Kamion: and i am leaving for VAC pretty soon
[01:53] <fabbione> also .. .12 wasn't newed till this morning .. so we couldn't really do much to build l-r-m
[01:54] <fabbione> i think you can safely drop it from linux-meta for a few days
[01:56] <Kamion> ok, that's probably best
[01:58] <Kamion> so I'll just drop the linux-restricted-modules-<flavour> deps from linux-<flavour>
[01:58] <fabbione> Kamion: i guess so.. i did never touch linux-meta
[01:58] <fabbione> if you want i can look at it in details
[01:59] <ups> hi ogra 
[01:59] <fabbione> but that sounds about right
[01:59] <ogra> hey ups 
[01:59] <Kamion> fabbione: s'ok, I'm happy to do it
[01:59] <ups> ogra, what do i need to do to get editbugs?
[01:59] <ogra> tell me who you are :)
[01:59] <ups> i am ups!!!
[01:59] <ups> :p
[01:59] <ogra> haha
[02:00] <ups> euphaar@gmail.com
[02:00] <Kamion> we should probably put linux-meta in the kernel-team arch archive at some point
[02:01] <ups> ogra, are there any details as to what people are doing wrong in bugzilla?
[02:01] <Kamion> setting fields that are for scheduling, in an attempt to get their problem looked at sooner, or just because they misunderstood what the fields were for
[02:02] <ogra> ups, its not the people, it was the setup.... people have set target milestones or assigned bugs without clue, so we want only people who understand the process doing that now
[02:02] <Kamion> assigning bugs arbitrarily to the wrong people
[02:02] <Kamion> filing bugs at critical/blocker when they aren't
[02:02] <ogra> ups, we plan a bugday so we can see what people are actually doing and assign them editbugs rights
[02:02] <tseng> any reason we are investing time into bugzilla when malone is moving over in a few weeks
[02:03] <fabbione> Kamion: yes that can be done...
[02:03] <ups> ok, i get it
[02:03] <ogra> tseng, yes... bugzilla is what we have _now_ :)
[02:03] <ups> ogra, when is the bugday coming up?
[02:03] <ogra> ups, see ubuntu-devel
[02:04] <ogra> ups, (the mailing list)
[02:04] <Nafallo> kiko: hi kiko.
[02:04] <ogra> ups, we hopewe can do the first one on 29th
[02:04] <ogra> hey kiko 
[02:04] <ups> ogra, yes, i'm subscribed to it
[02:04] <kiko> hey ya
[02:05] <Kamion> elmo: did jessica look sane to you?
[02:06] <ogra> ups, i cant find any bugs you are involved with yet
[02:07] <ups> ogra, there aren't many, but i did report some, and closed a very few
[02:08] <kiko> how's it hanging
[02:08] <ups> ogra, i just started doing it from this week
[02:09] <Kamion> elmo: and do you mind if I start doing some manually-reviewed priority editing with alicia?
[02:09] <ogra> kiko, downwards (except in .au) ?
[02:09] <kiko> it's in full swing here
[02:09] <ogra> heh
[02:09] <ups> ogra, can i /msg you a (long) url for that?
[02:09] <ogra> sure
[02:16] <fabbione> Kamion: if you need anything i have my mobilephone with me
[02:17] <Kamion> ok, thanks
[02:17] <fabbione> cya on monday
[02:17] <fabbione> and keep in mind there is a sparc around, when you are going to upload :P
[02:18] <Kamion> daniels: xterm?
[02:18] <daniels> Kamion: er, yeah
[02:19] <daniels> sorry, I've been fixing the modular server
[02:24] <ogra> ups, i added editbugs back for your account, use it sensible and wise ;)
[02:24] <ups> sure, and thanks :)
[02:37] <seb128> is somebody going to package pitfdll?
[02:38] <ogra> seb128, what is it ?
[02:38] <tseng> ogra: w32codecs loader for gstreamer
[02:38] <ogra> uhh
[02:38] <tseng> er... "dll loader"
[02:38] <ogra> tseng, didnt you wantto package nonfree gstreamer stuff ?
[02:38] <tseng> i did
[02:38] <tseng> but i need to clean up the package
[02:38] <tseng> for lintian
[02:39] <seb128> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=308101
[02:39] <tseng> lame and faad/faac
[02:39] <seb128> a guy packaged it for debian too
[02:39] <ogra> then lets just grab it
[02:39] <ogra> (if its sane)
[02:39] <tseng> ill look
[02:39] <seb128> thanks
[02:41] <tseng> http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/contrib/p/pitfdll/
[02:43] <jordi> looks pretty sane here
[02:43] <tseng> it looks pretty sane
[02:43] <tseng> yes.
[02:43] <Kamion> is there a developer-use i386 hoary chroot around anywhere?
[02:43] <pitti> Kamion: on concordia
[02:43] <pitti> Kamion: dchroot -c hoary-i386
[02:44] <tseng> hm perhaps it should not link to w32codecs
[02:44] <tseng> in the README
[02:44] <tseng> did we ever get legal advice on this?
[02:44] <Kamion> pitti: thanks
[02:45] <jordi> tseng: pointing at w32codecs is just that, a pointer.
[02:46] <tseng> jordi: we talked a small bit about whether or not we should be even documenting subverting patents
[02:46] <tseng> jordi: it gets pretty ugly in the US at least
[02:46] <tseng> 2600 got into legal hot water for linking to DeCSS iirc
[02:47] <tseng> right now we have a chunk of info about the stuff sitting on the wiki
[02:47] <jordi> tseng: woa
[02:49] <sivang> does anybody know if ubuntu has merchendise for sell in LinuxTag ?
[02:49] <tseng> sivang: ask Simira about merch
[02:50] <Treenaks> Ubuntu mechs?
[02:50] <sivang> Treenaks: yes
[02:50] <sivang> I have a coworker there that can bring me some
[02:50] <Treenaks> hi jordi 
[02:51] <tseng> pitti: yum!
[02:51] <Treenaks> sivang: no I mean battle-mechs :)
[02:51] <ogra> pitti, i know her, send greetings from here :)
[02:52] <sivang> ogra: hey oliver
[02:52] <ogra> hey sivang 
[02:54] <doko> pitti: ruby1.8 FTBFS
[02:55] <tseng> seb128: that package ftbfs on breezy pbuilder
[02:56] <tseng> seb128: gcc4 kind of stuff
[02:57] <seb128> lemme try
[03:11] <Kamion> elmo: torrent@magellanic.ubuntu.com wants a password, so the trigger fails
[03:11] <Kamion> elmo: I've commented it out for now
[03:12] <ogra> ffmpeg
[03:19] <mvo> elmo: please merge nasm from debian (override ok)
[03:33] <seb128> tseng: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/pitfdll/pitfdll/gst-libs/ext/loader/wine/ext.c?r1=1.1&r2=1.2 and http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/pitfdll/pitfdll/gst-libs/ext/loader/wine/win32.c?r1=1.1&r2=1.2 fix the issue
[03:33] <tseng> seb128: nice find
[03:34] <tseng> seb128: do you want the package, or I shoul dmail all that to myself for when I get home
[03:35] <mvo> elmo: please sync bzip2 (debian took our changes)
[03:35] <seb128> tseng: I would like to get that packaged for ubuntu but no hurry, I'm doing bug triage today 
[03:36] <tseng> seb128: ok I will test it and give it back to you
[03:36] <seb128> thanks
[03:39] <ogra> error: can't find a register in class `GENERAL_REGS' while reloading `asm'
[03:40] <mpt> The Breezy upstream freeze is on July 7, 14 weeks before the Breezy release. Gnome 2.10 was accepted into Hoary about 1~2 days before the Hoary release. There's something obvious I'm missing. What is it?
[03:40] <mvo> elmo: please sync tar (debian took our changes)
[03:40] <tseng> mvo: gnome is exempt from freeze
[03:40] <Nafallo> mpt: the override-function? ;-)
[03:41] <tseng> mpt, rather
[03:41] <mpt> tseng: ok, that's good news from my p.o.v., thanks
[03:50] <ddaa> mdz: is there an uptream VCS for apt-listchanges?
[03:50] <mvo> ddaa: AFAIK there is only mdz's private svn repository
[03:51] <ddaa> so, there's upstream VCS but not publicly accessible, yet
[03:51] <Lathiat> pitti: did that libsysfs upload fix the removable stuff
[03:52] <pitti> Lathiat: yes
[03:52] <Lathiat> pitti: woo :)
[04:00] <ddaa> Kamion: where is the VCS for archive-copier? (if there is one)
[04:04] <bob2> it's not on d-i svn?
[04:04] <bob2> er, in
[04:04] <ddaa> nah
[04:04] <ddaa> first place I looked
[04:05] <ddaa> bob2: btw, what's the rule for aspell modules?
[04:05] <bob2> aspell-blah?
[04:05] <ddaa> yeah
[04:06] <Kamion> ddaa: it's in arch
[04:06] <ddaa> hu...
[04:06] <Lathiat> is it possible to configure X with a fallback driver?
[04:06] <Kamion> ddaa: colin.watson@canonical.com--2004/archive-copier--mainline--0
[04:06] <Lathiat> e.g. if nvidia fails, try nv?
[04:06] <ddaa> I guess I should peg it in "unsupported" then :)
[04:06] <ddaa> Kamion: thanks for the details
[04:07] <Kamion> ddaa: you can't do arch-to-arch imports? or you aren't bothering 'cos it's silly? :-)
[04:07] <pitti> doko: d'oh, that FTBFS is a tricky one
[04:07] <pitti> Keybuk: here?
[04:07] <ddaa> Kamion: there's some infrastructure for that (it's really just mirorring) but there's no web UI, at least.
[04:09] <Keybuk> pitti: yup?
[04:10] <daniels> Lathiat: nope
[04:10] <ddaa> Keybuk: do you think it's correct to stuff all the aspell-blah imports in the "ftp" category, aka no upstream VCS?
[04:10] <daniels> jdub: I JUST GOT THE BEST IDEA
[04:10] <Lathiat> daniels: bugger
[04:10] <Keybuk> ddaa: do they have an upstream RCS?
[04:10] <Lathiat> daniels: im sure i saw something like that once
[04:10] <daniels> Lathiat: i just realised how to do it
[04:10] <ddaa> not as far as I can tell... but maybe I just missed it...
[04:10] <daniels> because I'm really awesome
[04:11] <Lathiat> go daniels
[04:11] <Lathiat> daniels: how? :)
[04:11] <Lathiat> nvidia->nv->vesa? :)
[04:11] <Lathiat> ->vga?:P
[04:12] <Zomb> .oO( >> EGA >> CGA >> Mono )
[04:12] <Lathiat> aalib? :)
[04:13] <Lathiat> over 9600 serial!
[04:14] <daniels> Lathiat: when you write out the config file, put different ServerLayouts in there for the different fallbacks
[04:14] <daniels> and just start the server with different layouts from gdm until you get something that works
[04:15] <Lathiat> sounds good
[04:15] <Lathiat> breezy? :)
[04:15] <Lathiat> then we can be like windows!
[04:16] <daniels> heh
[04:16] <daniels> maybe breezyable
[04:16] <daniels> we'll see
[04:17] <Lathiat> great, evolution crashes when selecting imap4rev1 in new account
[04:17] <Lathiat> doh
[04:18] <Lathiat> and imap
[04:18] <Lathiat> blah
[04:18] <\sh> damn
[04:19] <Lathiat> i should really move to maildir and use zapmail anda local mutt
[04:19] <Lathiat> but that requires effort and probably break all my mail
[04:40] <pitti> jbailey-gcc: any reason why @cdbs@ build dep expands to an unversioned build-essential?
[04:50] <vuntz> mako: ping?
[04:53] <bddebian> Kamion: ping?
[04:53] <Kamion> bddebian: yes?
[04:54] <Kamion> daniels: I'm making one small change to xterm/debian/rules: needs to be CFLAGS="$(CFLAGS)" ./configure rather than ./configure CFLAGS="$(CFLAGS)"
[04:54] <bddebian> Kamion: ogra said that you might be the person to ask about the framework for "derivative" distros?
[04:54] <daniels> Kamion: 'kay, that sounds about right, but that's how Keybuk had it in his d/r, and he's never wrong :P
[04:55] <Kamion> daniels: haha
[04:55] <Kamion> bddebian: uh, I'd be surprised ... maybe he meant Kinnison?
[04:55] <Keybuk> Kamion: uh, why?
[04:55] <Keybuk> (because that's wrong)
[04:55] <Kamion> bddebian: but you'd have to be more specific
[04:56] <Keybuk> unless xterm is using ancient autoconf, of course
[04:56] <Kamion> ../configure --prefix=/usr --mandir=\${prefix}/share/man \
[04:56] <Kamion>              --infodir=\${prefix}/share/info --enable-wide-chars --enable-luit --build=powerpc-linux-gnu \
[04:56] <Kamion>              CFLAGS="-Wall -g -O2"
[04:56] <Kamion> configure: warning: CFLAGS=-Wall -g -O2: invalid host type
[04:56] <Kamion> creating cache ./config.cache
[04:56] <Kamion> checking host system type... config.sub: too many arguments
[04:56] <bddebian> Kamion: Well somewhere I saw mention of a document about a framework for creating "Ubuntu based" distros.
[04:56] <Kamion> Try `config.sub --help' for more information.
[04:56] <Keybuk> that looks like ancient configure
[04:56] <Kamion> bddebian: -> Kinnison
[04:56] <bddebian> Kamion: Essentially what I am considering is an Ubuntu GNU/Hurd
[04:57] <bddebian> Ahh, OK, thanks
[04:57] <Keybuk> in which case, you're right
[04:57] <Kamion> I'm not sure what you'd gain from that relative to Debian GNU/Hurd to be honest
[04:57] <Kamion> I mean, not to send you away or anything, it's just not clear to me what you get :-)
[04:57] <bddebian> Kamion: Because I don't know how long Debian will let GNU live
[04:58] <Keybuk> well, Hurd doesn't have trademark issues </topical>
[04:59] <Kamion> curious, I'd've thought the Hurd had a better chance in Debian than in Ubuntu :-)
[04:59] <bddebian> Plus, I'd like to have more of the "Univervse" concept of development rather than maintainers for specific packages
[04:59] <Kamion> anyhow, sure, the launchpad stuff is still in development but it should be able to support that kind of derivative when it's ready
[05:00] <bddebian> And I imagine it would not be an "Ubuntu sponsored" distro anyway
[05:00] <Kamion> yeah, we expect to be supporting a number of things which don't carry the Ubuntu name but which derive from us
[05:01] <Keybuk> . o O { would a Hurd port of Ubuntu be called Moobuntu? }
[05:01] <bddebian> I was thinking Ubunturd.. ;-P
[05:02] <Kamion> bddebian: anything special you expect to need beyond a new architecture and an archive to upload to?
[05:03] <Kamion> daniels: hmm, and installing to debian/xterm rather than debian/tmp might be a plan ;-)
[05:03] <mvo> Keybuk: MoM seems to not know about system-tools-backends. is there a way I can check that?
[05:03] <bddebian> Kamion: I don't really know, hence why I was looking for a guideline.. :-)  I was hoping to be able to build a buildd
[05:03] <daniels> Kamion: *cough*
[05:03] <Kamion> oh, hmm, it's using dh_install --sourcedir=debian/tmp
[05:04] <Kamion> daniels: should I have a debian/xterm.install?
[05:04] <daniels> Kamion: yeah, probably
[05:04] <daniels> i just transitioned it from using cdbs :P
[05:04] <Kamion> actually, maybe just install direct into debian/xterm - I don't see much gain from using debian/tmp as an intermediate
[05:05] <Kamion> bddebian: Kinnison's only in this channel very occasionally - you could /msg him
[05:05] <daniels> Kamion: *shrug*, none really
[05:05] <daniels> Kamion: more out of convention from my other packages than anything else
[05:06] <bddebian> Well I may be premature anyway, I was just hoping to get some insight.  I'm gonna start with some help with Universe packages first, I hope..
[05:06] <Kamion> well, I'll do it this way for the moment, I wouldn't trust myself to write a correct xterm.install. :-)
[05:27] <mdz> morning
[05:28] <mdz> ddaa: yes, the upstream VCS for apt-listchanges is my local CVS
[05:28] <mdz> ddaa: I have no particular desire to make it public, though I would like to have it imported into arch so that I can start using arch as the primary repository without abandoning my history
[05:28] <mdz> Keybuk: you can have both editbugs AND a separate account for MOM
[05:29] <Keybuk> gosh, but that'd mean I'd be able to do things to bugs
[05:29] <ddaa> mdz: I've stashed into "do late" bucket. In time we can coordinate with you to make you an import and turn it into an Arch upstream.
[05:29] <Keybuk> wish seems unfitting of a member of the launchpad team who's supposed to champion malone
[05:30] <mdz> Keybuk: yes, and having a separate account for MOM would mean less excuse to ignore bugzilla mail ;-)
[05:30] <Keybuk> but I'm not distro team :)  it's not part of my job to read bugzilla mail
[05:31] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: that's easily remedied. ;-P
[05:32] <Keybuk> which definition of "easily" are you using ?!
[05:32] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I'm sure mdz can drag you into our merry little family.
[05:32] <Keybuk> I thought he'd already tried and failed
[05:33] <pitti> mdz: would you mind demoting monodoc-http into universe?
[05:33] <pitti> mdz: yesterday I half-approved the package, but all debs are already in main
[05:33] <pitti> (seeded)
[05:33] <mdz> pitti: that depends on what it will break
[05:33] <pitti> mdz: it's a standalone http server to view mono docs
[05:34] <pitti> mdz: but using monodevelop or the gui is probably enough
[05:34] <pitti> (monodoc-browser)
[05:34] <mdz> pitti: ah, ok, I was confusing it with something else
[05:35] <pitti> mdz: I talked with tseng about it, and he agreed
[05:35] <mdke> hey ogra you around?
[05:35] <pitti> mdz: ok, I remove it from the seeds then
[05:35] <ogra> mdke, moment, on the phone
[05:35] <mdke> ogra, sure thanks
[05:37] <mdz> pitti: already doing it
[05:37] <pitti> mdz: ah, ok; just got a revision lock error
[05:37] <tseng> thanks pitti, mdz 
[05:37] <pitti> mdz: you don't get it? seems to be an umask problem again
[05:38] <mdz> pitti: no, it's the same old baz bug where if you SIGINT gpg it breaks the tree
[05:38] <mdz> pitti: I've finished committing now, should be fine
[05:38] <pitti> thanks
[05:43] <mdz> Kamion: so the next set of CD builds will be the first with 2.6.12, right?
[05:43] <ogra> and with a working xsession ?
[05:44] <ogra> mdke, back now :)
[05:44] <mdke> ogra, cool thanks
[05:44] <mdke> ogra, i just wanted to ask, I saw that you are doing an edubuntu conference, even if I'm not involved, is it possible for me to come along to listen?
[05:45] <ogra> mdke, hmm, we are limited on space, but one person should do no harm
[05:45] <mdke> ogra, that's why I asked, if space is limited its no problem, i don't mind!
[05:46] <ogra> mdke, let me talk to someone who knows the location... i'll come back to you later
[05:46] <bddebian> Heya ogra
[05:46] <mdke> ogra, sure thing, thanks
[05:46] <Kamion> mdz: assuming d-i is byhanded before then, yes
[05:47] <Kamion> mdz: my network access is liable to be very spotty for a bit; seems the magic smoke escaped from my ADSL router
[05:47] <Kamion> mdz: I'm working from Kinnison's today, but if I can't get it fixed tomorrow morning then I will just have to do offline development for a while - I have an Ubuntu installer talk to finish writing for Saturday anyway
[05:48] <mdz> Kamion: yep, got your email.  have you found an alternate means of getting online?
[05:48] <mdz> ah
[05:48] <mdz> what's Saturday?
[05:48] <Kamion> lugradio live
[05:48] <mdz> they do talks?
[05:49] <Kamion> lugradio live is a conference-style thing - first time they've run one
[05:50] <Kamion> attempts to work around the problem with my old ADSL modem this morning were unsuccessful, so there may be more than one problem at work
[05:55] <Kamion> daniels: ok, xterm uploading
[05:56] <ogra> great, so we'll have a working gdm again :)
[05:57] <pitti> ogra: what's wrong with the current one?
[05:57] <ogra> pitti, it breaks if there is no xterm installed....
[05:57] <pitti> ah
[05:58] <Kamion> I think seb128 implied that might be a distinct gdm bug
[05:58] <Kamion> but we'll see
[05:58] <seb128> ii  xterm          6.8.2-10       X terminal emulator
[05:58] <seb128> and I've the bug
[05:58] <pitti> My gdm works perfectly
[05:58] <ogra> hmm
[05:59] <pitti> shall I try to nuke xterm? (I don't use it anyway)
[05:59] <ogra> pitti, mine didnt .... it drops you into a strange xdialog
[05:59] <tseng> ogra: oh dude
[05:59] <seb128> default session does that
[05:59] <tseng> ogra: you just need to pick a gnome session
[05:59] <seb128> gnome one works fine
[05:59] <ogra> tseng, i know...
[06:00] <ogra> tseng, but if you have "last" selected, or "default" it doesnt work
[06:00] <Kamion> any idea how long that might take to fix? it's a colony cd blocker
[06:00] <seb128> the gdm bug?
[06:00] <Kamion> whatever it is that breaks the default session, yeah
[06:00] <Kamion> oh damn, I said I'd be home like 15 minutes ago, and I'm 25 minutes' drive from home
[06:00] <seb128> oh, I've put it on the bottom of my list of bug since picking GNOME works fine
[06:00] <ogra> and a edubuntu CD blocker too... (i can live with it, but its not nice for a showroom release i'm planning currently)
[06:01] <Kamion> seb128: I can't release CD images that way I'm afraid
[06:01] <seb128> k, I'll work on it
[06:01] <Kamion> or at least I'd really hate to :)
[06:01] <Kamion> thanks
[06:01] <seb128> np
[06:02] <Keybuk> Kamion: did you see that you're scheduled against Ian Bell? :-/
[06:02] <pitti> Keybuk: who is that?
[06:02] <Keybuk> he wrote a little game called Elite
[06:02] <ogra> oh
[06:02] <ogra> _this_ ian
[06:05] <Kamion> Keybuk: good, smaller audience ;-)
[06:05] <Kamion> unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, etc.
[06:05] <Keybuk> it'll be interesting to see how many people attend
[06:05] <Keybuk> (in general)
[06:05] <Keybuk> it's either going to be a small, totally local affair
[06:05] <Keybuk> or it's going to be far too big for its venue
[06:05] <Keybuk> I'm not sure which
[06:06] <Kamion> ok, I'm off - mail me if you need me, I'll try to get online somewhere
[06:06] <Kamion> somehow
[06:11] <bob2> thom: any idea where acpi-support svn is?
[06:19] <wasabi_> Hmm. This is an interesting screenshot.
[06:21] <jnc> Ian Bell.  *swoon*
[06:45] <hunger> Would it be possible to have a centrino-kernel image? Most laptops are based on it these days and they tend to have somewhat more limited resources than desktops, so having all the stuff that is not seen in laptops is costing them a bit.
[06:45] <bob2> how so?
[06:46] <bob2> I really doubt the extra modules on disk is a significant issue on a centrino laptop
[06:46] <justin> bob2: gentooitis? :-)
[06:46] <hunger> bob2: The infrastructure for all kinds of stuff is in the kernel. Most drivers are not, agreed.
[06:47] <bob2> hunger: and which of that consumes a significant amount of memory if not used?
[06:47] <hunger> bob2: And I'd like to have a pentium-M build kernel;-)
[06:47] <hunger> bob2: Yeah, you are probably right.
[06:48] <mdz> Keybuk: if you create a new bugzilla user for MOM, I'll give it appropriate permissions
[06:48] <Keybuk> mdz: I'd need the password to be grabbed out of the database
[06:49] <Keybuk> or elmo to create an e-mail address for it
[06:49] <mdz> Keybuk: I can just set a password of your choosing
[06:49] <mdz> or set a random one and give it to you
[06:49] <Keybuk> either works, mom@ubuntu.com
[06:50] <bddebian> I can e-mail my mom at ubuntu?? :-)
[06:50] <Keybuk> pick a password
[06:53] <Keybuk> (and mail it to me, I'm off now)
[07:03] <bob2> so
[07:03] <bob2> if I upload urlgrabber to sid, it'll get picked up into breezy universe tommorow, right?
[07:05] <mdz> bob2: if the Ubuntu version is identical to the Debian version, and it's not a new package, yes
[07:05] <bob2> it's a new package
[07:06] <bddebian> Ubuntu is not at LinuxTag??
[07:08] <justin> speaking of new software, I need to figure out how to do one of them RPF's for http://onegeek.org/~tom/software/delay/ .. building .debs for it gets old after the 10th time
[07:09] <bob2> "RPF"? RFP?
[07:09] <justin> ah yes, typo :-)
[07:09] <daniels> bddebian: it is
[07:09] <justin> 'delay' is a hard word to search for to see if someone had filed one in the past
[07:10] <bddebian> daniels: Do you know where?  A friend of mine just said he hadn't seen them?
[07:10] <Mithrandir> it's stupid to use common words as program names
[07:10] <daniels> bddebian: they're sharing booth space with gnome
[07:10] <bddebian> Ahh
[07:10] <daniels> mako's wandering around but will probably settle on an FSF booth
[07:10] <daniels> and I'm here in the X.Org booth
[07:11] <bddebian> Well I'm in the US so.. :'-(
[07:11] <bddebian> :-)
[07:15] <mdz> bob2: new packages get processed manually, so it may not be tomorrow
[07:16] <mdz> bob2: if it's new in Debian as well, it will almost certainly take several days before it is accepted in Debian, and it won't even go into Ubuntu's new queue until then
[07:16] <bob2> mdz: ok, I'll just ask around on the weekend then, thanks
[07:16] <bob2> right, totally not in a hurry :)
[07:17] <toresbe> vel, ja :P
[07:17] <toresbe> whoa, ewindow
[07:17] <toresbe> that's strange.
[07:40] <bob2> doko: ping
[07:55] <doko> bob2: pong
[07:55] <lamont__> elmo?
[07:57] <bob2> doko: ah, just wanted to ask for some help packaging a python module
[07:57] <bob2> but I'm going to sleep now, might see if you're around tommorow :)
[07:57] <doko> ok
[08:08] <pitti> Hi lamont__ 
[08:11] <ska-fan> pitti: Hi. Where can I get updated pg80 packages for hoary? The ones in debian unstable want to upgrade libc..
[08:11] <pitti> ska-fan: fetch the source from sid/breezy and build them on your own
[08:11] <pitti> ska-fan: I don't do hoary backports myself
[08:13] <ska-fan> can you give me short step-by-step on how to build my own packages?
[08:13] <pitti> I /msg
[08:13] <ska-fan> thanks
[08:17] <jbailey-gcc> pitti: re: @cdbs@, because Robert Millan did some drugs and wasn't sharing.
[08:18] <jbailey-gcc> pitti: It's clearly wrong.  I haven't taken the time to change it yet.
[08:18] <Mithrandir> jbailey-gcc: so if he'd been sharing you'd want to keep @cdbs@? :-)
[08:18] <pitti> jbailey-gcc: ah, ok. if it's known, that's fine :-)
[08:18] <bddebian> jbailey-gcc!!!
[08:19] <jbailey-gcc> Mithrandir: Well, I don't fundamnetally disagree with the whole @cdbs@ thing.  There are some things that need to be different about it though.
[08:19] <jbailey-gcc> pitti: It is.  Feel free to fix it if it's annoying you a lot - I won't do it this week.  (I'm at the GCC Summit)
[08:19] <jbailey-gcc> bddebian: Heya Barry.
[08:20] <Duck_Happy> coin jbailey-gcc 
[08:20] <bddebian> Duck_Happy: What're you doing here?? ;-)
[08:20] <jbailey-gcc> Heyhey, Duck.
[08:20] <pitti> jbailey-gcc: oh, it's not urgent, I just noticed (I don't automatically regenerate control)
[08:20] <jbailey-gcc> Right.
[08:20] <jbailey-gcc> That's the biggest fix that needs to happen.
[08:21] <jbailey-gcc> (That control needs to not auto generate)
[08:26] <Duck_Happy> bddebian: i'm watching if you are not doing BAD(tm) things ;-)
[08:27] <bddebian> Duck_Happy: YOu mean like Ubuntu GNU/Hurd?? ;-P
[08:27] <Duck_Happy> for example, yes
[08:28] <Duck_Happy> bddebian: go back to Hurd homework n,aughty boy
[08:28] <bddebian> Duck_Happy: I am.  I'm forking it to a distro that might actually get some work done / care about the system.. ;-)
[08:28] <Duck_Happy> bddebian: more seriously i'm here to foloow CDBS discussions
[08:28] <bddebian> Ahhh
[08:29] <Duck_Happy> bddebian: because CDBS like Hurd is the future
[08:29] <bddebian> Aye
[08:30] <Mithrandir> Duck_Happy: I doubt both statements. :-)
[08:30] <bddebian> Mithrandir: Bah, shows what YOU know.. ;-)
[08:31] <Mithrandir> bddebian: I don't believe in "one size fits all".
[08:31] <Mithrandir> bddebian: and I don't like cdbs in a lot of cases because it makes too much implicit.
[08:31] <bddebian> Mithrandir: I was kidding man. :-)
[08:32] <Mithrandir> bddebian: hard to tell on IRC :-)
[08:32] <bddebian> Hence the wink.. ;-)
[08:32] <Duck_Happy> Mithrandir: i never felt loosing control on my packages when using CDBS1
[08:32] <Mithrandir> Duck_Happy: I had to resort to reading source on multiple occasions.  That hasn't happened often with just debhelper, for instance.
[08:33] <Duck_Happy> Mithrandir: you should read the documentation, which was long to come, i agree
[08:34] <Duck_Happy> CDBS2 is not gonna be in the same situation
[08:34] <Mithrandir> Duck_Happy: UTSL was the doc last time I did something which wasn't C&P.
[08:35] <Duck_Happy> Mithrandir: when was it ?
[08:37] <Mithrandir> Duck_Happy: some time ago, I don't remember.
[08:38] <Duck_Happy> hum
[08:40] <tseng> thom: feel like fixing blam?
[08:46] <mdz> doko: are we going to need to do an oo.o2-amd64, or is upstream 64-bit happening?
[08:50] <doko> mdz: it's likeley we need it. I'm currently working on m111. If that's working on powerpc and ix86, then I'll start a compile for amd64. The other option to try is to use gcc -m32 on amd64
[08:53] <mdz> doko: it would be very nice if we could merge the source packages
[08:53] <mdz> but we still need more ia32-libs, right?
[08:55] <doko> mdz: yes, but currently I just install the libs needed, I think it's too early to start the packaging now
[09:03] <zzzsleepy> A new NVIDIA driver (1.0-7667) was released yesterday. Any plans on backporting this? (http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux_display_ia32_1.0-7667.html) brief list of changes with the latest NVIDIA driver: http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=850 
[09:03] <zzzsleepy> I believe this (may) resolve an issue which held back the previous new version from being backported
[09:04] <zzzsleepy> pardon me if this is offtopic, I was told this was the place to mention this, thanks for reading.
[09:04] <ogra> zzzsleepy, we dont backport things
[09:04] <kiko> zzzsleepy, ask daniels as he is the man to be on such things.
[09:04] <kiko> ogra, you should have been in yesterday's mgmt meeting :)
[09:04] <zzzsleepy> ogra, then I was misinformed, my apologies. :/
[09:04] <zzzsleepy> ogra, thanks, I will do that.
[09:04] <kiko> zzzsleepy, you mean backporting to hoary, yes?
[09:04] <zzzsleepy> kiko, yes! :)
[09:05] <kiko> yeah, hate to say I don't think this backport will make it
[09:05] <zzzsleepy> kiko, darn :)
[09:06] <kiko> but tell you what
[09:06] <kiko> you can package it and I will let you publish in our wiki your apt repository at no extra charge!
[09:06] <kiko> this is a one-time offer :)
[09:06] <\sh> rotfl
[09:06] <ogra> heh
[09:06] <zzzsleepy> heh. I have dialup, I cannot possibly backport ;(
[09:07] <zzzsleepy> but thank you both for your kind answers, I appreciate it.
[09:07] <kiko> I'm sorry I don't have good news
[09:07] <kiko> actually, I do!
[09:07] <kiko> breezy's around the corner
[09:07] <zzzsleepy> :)
[09:07] <kiko> we need bug triage love to make the corner closer
[09:07] <kiko> if you pop up on wednesday we can make your little modem squeal with glee at all the bugpages it may ship
[09:08] <zzzsleepy> lol
[09:08] <kiko> think about this amazing opportunity
[09:08] <zzzsleepy> will you make it go WEEEEE like a piggy?
[09:08] <kiko> did I say we may be offering bribes too?
[09:08] <zzzsleepy> hah
[09:09] <kiko> so put down wednesday in your calendar as "the day I skipped work to help out in the ubuntu bugday"
[09:09] <zzzsleepy> ;)
[09:11] <zzzsleepy> you know what this distro needs, a community/monastic like setting where a bunch of coders give up everything and live off the land to beta test future versions of ubuntu! Not only would it be something no other distro has, it would also make for good world news :)
[09:12] <kiko> you'd need naked waitresses
[09:12] <zzzsleepy> !
[09:12] <Nafallo> kiko: what? where!? GIMME! :-)
[09:12] <kiko> Nafallo, only when you fix enough bugs
[09:12] <Nafallo> kiko: hehe.
[09:13] <zzzsleepy> is that the linux version of enlightenment? :D
[09:13] <Nafallo> kiko: not til I've got proper ccache love in my pbuilders ;-)
[09:15] <mdz> ogra,kiko: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
[09:15] <mdz> initial brain dump
[09:15] <ogra> mdz, wow, fast :)
[09:16] <tseng> it would be great to pick up a few regular triagers
[09:17] <bddebian> Ohh, I have to read that tonight
[09:17] <mdz> kiko,ogra: blank space at the bottom for bug day instructions :-)
[09:17] <bddebian> After upgrading to Breezy of course.. :-)
[09:17] <mdz> I need to run an errand; I'll be back in an hour or so
[09:17] <kiko> mdz, I'll make a magical effort tonight
[09:18] <mdz> kiko: it's probably worth duplicating some of the GNOME stuff about completeness directly on that page, and customizing it for Ubuntu
[09:18] <kiko> k
[09:18] <mdz> since we need different information than they do
[09:19] <mdz> I'll try to work on it more later
[09:19] <tseng> ogra: voting on?
[09:19] <ogra> tseng, the BFOM 
[09:19] <ogra> tseng, bugfixer of the month
[09:19] <bddebian> Oops, I shouldn't be talking in here huh??
[09:20] <bddebian> Yeah tseng!
[09:20] <tseng> ogra: shouldnt that be scripted?
[09:20] <ogra> tseng, nope
[09:20] <tseng> most bugs closed, no brainer
[09:20] <ogra> tseng, thats just boring
[09:20] <ogra> tseng, most bugs is not a intresting criteria for the community
[09:21] <ogra> tseng, most annoying bugs is !
[09:21] <tseng> ok that doesnt seem to have any practical value to me
[09:21] <tseng> but have fun :)
[09:21] <ogra> tseng, the community shall vote for the best bugfixer... that gets more eyes on the bugs ;)
[09:22] <tseng> er, you might want to fix your wording then
[09:22] <ogra> tseng, they have to look at the bugs and care for them to vote, even if they cant fix ;)
[09:22] <tseng> "best bugfixer" to me sounds like someone who fixed the bug
[09:22] <tseng> not a bug you want to fix
[09:23] <ogra> the "best" in the eyes of the community.... not driven by quantity
[09:23] <tseng> well dont call it a bugfixer
[09:23] <ogra> the idea is to attract "non bugfixers" to have a look at the bugs.... 
[09:23] <tseng> now thats a good idea
[09:23] <ogra> tseng, you dont call a person who fixes a bug a bugfixer ?
[09:24] <tseng> yes, i do
[09:24] <ogra> so do i
[09:24] <ogra> :)
[09:24] <tseng> i dont call the bug i want to get fixed a "best bugfixer"
[09:24] <ogra> noo... if you vote, you look at fixed bugs...
[09:24] <tseng> and voting after the fact for the person who fixed the most annoying bug is stupid
[09:24] <tseng> no no
[09:24] <tseng> vote on open bugs to get moved up a list
[09:25] <tseng> top 10 most annoying bugs
[09:25] <tseng> ranking them after the fact is pointless imho
[09:25] <ogra> no, you can in prizes if you get voted...
[09:25] <ogra> win even
[09:25] <tseng> eh
[09:25] <ogra> so the community has to vote for you...
[09:26] <tseng> i still think you have it backwards
[09:26] <tseng> but its your project
[09:26] <ogra> it is 1. bringing together the users and hackers more, 2. attracting people to look at bugs they would never look at... and 3. have a lot of fun  :)
[09:26] <tseng> and prizes.. meh
[09:27] <ogra> whats wrong with that ? 
[09:27] <tseng> most of the top bugfixers are doing this for a living
[09:27] <tseng> atm
[09:27] <ogra> what are the top bugfixers ?
[09:27] <tseng> seems stupid to give them a prize
[09:27] <tseng> seb, you?
[09:28] <ogra> i'm not a _top_ bugfixer....
[09:28] <ogra> tseng indeed people working directly on the distro are not included
[09:29] <tseng> why dont we get people involved in bug tracker by having them select the top 10 most annoying bugs
[09:29] <tseng> which get more attention
[09:29] <ogra> tseng, we'll have bugdays... its all inside this frame... so bugs introduced on bugdays count
[09:29] <tseng> by getting spammed around on bugdays
[09:29] <tseng> and show up first on bugzilla
[09:30] <tseng> its harder to work backwards and see who fixed the most popular bugs
[09:30] <tseng> and makes less sense to me
[09:30] <tseng> where do you start to select this person?
[09:30] <ogra> tseng, i want the fixers to be free to choose... i want the users to decide what helped them most and vote for that
[09:31] <tseng> if i am an average user
[09:31] <ogra> then you read the ubuntu-users ml.... and probably drop by in #ubuntu-bugs
[09:31] <tseng> other than voting for the guy that fixed my pet bug
[09:31] <tseng> or watched on bug day
[09:31] <tseng> i have no idea who fixed what
[09:31] <tseng> w/o looking at every bug closed that day
[09:31] <ogra> thats not important....
[09:32] <tseng> gosh
[09:32] <ogra> why, if you have your pet bug
[09:32] <tseng> so people who arent involved directly in bug day
[09:32] <tseng> dont get to vote?
[09:33] <ogra> no, bugs that are not touched on bugdays
[09:33] <ogra> if you fix a bug that was handles on a bugday, thats votable 
[09:33] <ogra> handled
[09:34] <ogra> bu if you fix one in your area (mono) that never showed up on a bugday... who should vote for it ?
[09:34] <bddebian> If I start looking at bugs, how do I know I'm not looking at a bug that someone else is already working on??
[09:35] <ogra> its assigned ?
[09:35] <bddebian> I see that a lot of them aren't
[09:36] <tseng> ogra: so if i fix all my bugs before bug day im not a participant?
[09:36] <ogra> you see it right :)
[09:36] <tseng> none of this makes sense to me
[09:36] <ogra> tseng, who should notice your bugs ?
[09:37] <tseng> people who want beagle and are annoyed at some bug that keeps them from using it?
[09:37] <ogra> if they are not brought up 
[09:37] <tseng> thats what i was saying before, there is no way for the average user to participate in voting
[09:37] <ogra> yes, and they look in bugzilla on a bugday, and thereis no bug
[09:38] <ogra> tseng, yes, thats why they should show up on bugdays.... if ou want to get a vote, show up too :) 
[09:38] <bddebian> ogra: Are you saying that no one is working on them? :-)
[09:38] <ogra> bddebian, or they are not verified etc... look at the status
[09:38] <tseng> its stupid
[09:38] <tseng> to confine incentives to one day
[09:39] <ogra> tseng, bringing people together is stupid ?
[09:39] <tseng> why should I fix bugs any other day?
[09:39] <tseng> no, bug day in general is not stupid at all
[09:39] <ogra> because you claimed it on bugday ?
[09:39] <tseng> recognizing people for fixing bugs only on bugday is stupid
[09:39] <ogra> not for fixing
[09:39] <ogra> for grabbing
[09:39] <tseng> for grabbing?
[09:39] <tseng> whats grabbing
[09:39] <ogra> sure
[09:40] <ogra> claiming a bug to fix it...
[09:40] <tseng> buh
[09:40] <ogra> i dont expect people to fix the bugs on bugday
[09:40] <ogra> but you have to coordinate it ....
[09:41] <tseng> grabbing a bug would seem to discourage other people from fixing it
[09:41] <ogra> there might also be a mailing list for that... so its not bound to the day... but currently i think the concept to bring people together that would never work together this way is a very important aspect...
[09:42] <ogra> tseng, who cares, as long as you fix it...
[09:42] <tseng> because someone else marked it
[09:42] <tseng> and you gave them a prize
[09:43] <tseng> 1) there should be no more reason to fix bugs on bugday than any other day
[09:43] <tseng> it should be about getting people involved and meeting the developers
[09:43] <tseng> they should stay involved
[09:43] <tseng> whenever is convenient
[09:43] <ogra> sure
[09:44] <ogra> the bugday is to get them innvolved
[09:44] <tseng> yes
[09:44] <tseng> but not just on bug day
[09:44] <ogra> ope
[09:44] <ogra> nope
[09:45] <ogra> but if they want a prize (merchandize or a weekend with you) they should show up on bugday....
[09:45] <Nafallo> yay!
[09:45] <tseng> and triage bugs
[09:45] <tseng> and do their best to fix..
[09:45] <ogra> yep
[09:45] <tseng> so
[09:46] <tseng> "grabbing bugs" is broken
[09:46] <Nafallo> ogra: weekend with tseng ? :-)
[09:46] <tseng> Nafallo: they wouldnt survive it
[09:46] <ogra> but still i want the community to be the judge 
[09:46] <ogra> not a statistic drawn from bugzilla
[09:46] <tseng> thats the part I think is broken :P
[09:46] <Nafallo> tseng: tss tss tss. almost like I should give it a shot ;-)
[09:47] <tseng> you are limiting 
[09:47] <tseng> "the community" to "people who are at bugday"
[09:47] <ogra> tseng, nope... they can discuss it on the mailing list etc
[09:47] <tseng> which says, we value the people who are here on a given day more than people who fixed bugs every other day
[09:47] <tseng> who might have been better contributors
[09:48] <tseng> maybe seb fixed 50 bugs this month, and wasnt at bug day.. we give lots of fanfare to Nafallo who fixed 2 bugs on bugday
[09:48] <ogra> tseng, probably we shouldnt limit it to the day, but still the community shall vote, thats the important part
[09:49] <tseng> i want the community to vote on the top 5/10 bugs for bugday
[09:49] <tseng> and we recognize the fixers of the most popular bugs
[09:49] <ogra> tseng, seb gets money for fixing bugs... Nafallo does it in his sparetime... i think all distro team guys are excluded by default
[09:49] <tseng> ogra: well, \sh then
[09:50] <tseng> fixed 50 vs Nafallo's 2
[09:50] <Nafallo> hilights dudes :-P
[09:50] <tseng> its just an example of why I think its silly
[09:50] <seb128_> community has no real clue of what bugs are easy or not to fix and who do job imho
[09:50] <bddebian> aye
[09:50] <ogra> tseng, if \sh is after a ubuntu t-shirt, he will show up
[09:50] <tseng> bwar
[09:50] <ogra> else he will just go on fixing bugs as he does now
[09:51] <tseng> i want to recognize his steady contributions on other days of the week
[09:51] <ogra> (or a dinner with you)
[09:51] <tseng> over someone else who came for 1 day
[09:51] <ogra> tseng, but thats not the target
[09:51] <tseng> thats part of people *staying* involved
[09:51] <ogra> tseng, getting _more_ people in is the target...
[09:51] <tseng> i am going to walk away, i am being an asshole
[09:52] <ogra> tseng, so how many packages do you review for MOTU in one day ?
[09:52] <tseng> bbiaf
[09:52] <\sh> what?
[09:52] <tseng> ogra: hm i dont really care about myself, others fix alot more bugs
[09:52] <ogra> i guess not more then me....
[09:53] <ogra> tseng, but i bet you will be around on review day to review one or two
[09:53] <tseng> ogra: sure.
[09:53] <ogra> see
[09:53] <\sh> what are you talking about me in my coding time?
[09:53] <tseng> \sh: hi sh :)
[09:53] <ogra> \sh, we dont, you hallucinate
[09:53] <ogra> \sh, go back coding ;)
[09:53] <\sh> hey, I  turn around my back, and everything beeps here ;)
[09:53] <ogra> hehe
[09:54] <\sh> need to finish python kde torrent client...
[09:54] <seb128> why do you want to have community people voting for that?
[09:54] <Nafallo> \sh: know the feeling ;-)
[09:54] <Amaranth> that's the fastest this computer has ever booted up
[09:54] <Amaranth> the only way to beat it would be to use windows 95 :)
[09:55] <Nafallo> Amaranth: ? :-)
[09:55] <bddebian> DOS 3.3 ?
[09:55] <Amaranth> heh
[09:55] <bddebian> :-)
[09:55] <Amaranth> i meant something with a GUI
[09:55] <Amaranth> that would work on this computer
[09:55] <bddebian> MS DOS 3.3 with Norton COmmander? ;-P
[09:56] <Nafallo> Amaranth: what did you do? install the new kernel? :-)
[09:56] <Amaranth> 2.6.12, yeah
[09:56] <Amaranth> but i just wiped my old install and went hoary->breezy with no hacks too
[09:56] <\sh> gentlemen, I'm not behind a ubuntu shirt, my trolltech shirt is enough, and my redhat fedora and baseball cap as well...I'm feeling sometimes like a PR machine without revenue ;)
[09:56] <Amaranth> so that might be part of it
[09:57] <ogra> \sh, as i said.... you fix them anyway :)
[09:57] <Amaranth> my old install was warty+hoary+breezy+hacks to make hoary and breezy work when they were broken
[09:58] <\sh> ogra: most of the stuff for cxx was/is finger tricks for me...the really interessting stuff was only in a couple of them
[09:58] <ogra> Amaranth, your X upgrade worked fine ?
[09:58] <Amaranth> yep
[09:58] <Amaranth> no problems at all
[09:58] <ogra> Amaranth, no clash with xsreensaver ?
[09:58] <Amaranth> wait, i did have one problem
[09:58] <\sh> ogra: and I would like to even more when danielN is ready to join us
[09:59] <Amaranth> xlibs-data and libx11 both had xkb iirc
[09:59] <ogra> \sh, he will...
[09:59] <Amaranth> but that wasn't anything major
[09:59] <\sh> to see 
[09:59] <Amaranth> no problems with xscreensaver, no
[09:59] <ogra> Amaranth, great :-D
[09:59] <\sh> ogra: i know :) 
[09:59] <\sh> ogra: ffmpeg *run*
[09:59] <ogra> GRRR
[10:00] <ogra> \sh, it looks like its not solvable
[10:00] <\sh> yeah I love u too :)
[10:00] <ogra> (ffmpeg)
[10:00] <doko> ohh, the IBM wireless drivers are restricted?
[10:00] <ogra> i tried all combinations of cvs snapshots and patches ....
[10:01] <\sh> so, transcode will never reach ubuntu ;)
[10:01] <ogra> heh... transcode
[10:01] <HiddenWolf> if the ibm drivers are restricted, we won't see ibm laptop support fully?
[10:02] <seb128> what a waste of work on ffmpeg
[10:02] <ogra> \sh, i guess waiting for a new upstream version is the only thing i can do
[10:02] <ogra> seb128, absolutely
[10:02] <\sh> ogra: same here for some *censored* soft
[10:02] <seb128> why trying to work on this for days?
[10:02] <ogra> seb128, i spent about 3x2h
[10:03] <ogra> seb128, to solve it ?
[10:03] <tseng> \sh: you can have my mono and ubuntu shirts
[10:03] <seb128> Debian is switching to gcc4 soon
[10:03] <seb128> sam is an excellent maintainer and will fix it for sure
[10:03] <ogra> seb128, ok
[10:03] <seb128> why not using gcc-3.n for now
[10:03] <seb128> and stop working for hours for nothing
[10:03] <ogra> seb128, because it doesnt work
[10:03] <\sh> tseng: no :) I don't need :) 
[10:04] <seb128> that's not a gcc issue?
[10:04] <ogra> seb128, i can compile it on amd64 without probs
[10:04] <tseng> \sh: k. you cant have my mono monkey
[10:04] <tseng> \sh: he sits on my desk.
[10:04] <ogra> seb128, i cant compile it on ppc with other things then gcc-3.4
[10:04] <\sh> tseng: hehe :) greetings then :)
[10:04] <seb128> so built it with this gcc
[10:04] <seb128> and wait for Debian
[10:05] <ogra> seb128, i cant compile it on i386 at all because of a lot of assembler code that doesnt work (probably caused through our glibc)
[10:05] <ogra> seb128, with neither gcc...
[10:05] <\sh> G'evening hsi customer ;)
[10:05] <ogra> heh
[10:05] <\sh> (good god, that he's not in the 1411 ring)
[10:06] <ogra> \sh, DO isnt 1411 :)
[10:06] <\sh> as I said
[10:06] <\sh> 1411 is a pain in da ass nowadays
[10:07] <ogra> \sh, i helped building it ;) i know ....
[10:07] <\sh> ogra: ask mahmud(sp?) and coral about it...they love 1411 ;) 
[10:08] <ogra> :)
[10:08] <Amaranth> seb128: gnome 2.10 in debian is using gnome-*.menu, right?
[10:09] <Burgundavia> seb128, can I close https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11303 ?
[10:13] <seb128> Amaranth: correct
[10:13] <Amaranth> seb128: any ETA for breezy getting it?
[10:13] <seb128> Burgundavia: nop, I've not closed it because I've planned to maybe do an hoary-updates upload
[10:13] <seb128> Amaranth: getting what?
[10:14] <Burgundavia> seb128, that is what I figured. Ok, will leave alone
[10:14] <Amaranth> gnome-*.menu
[10:14] <seb128> Amaranth: that's not planned
[10:14] <seb128> Amaranth: GNOME is default for Ubuntu we don't change it
[10:14] <Amaranth> ah, ok
[10:15] <Amaranth> i thought you had it like it is because you were still planning on doing the XDG_CONFIG_DIRS tricks
[10:15] <seb128> nop
[10:15] <seb128> kde is already renamed for hoary
[10:15] <seb128> GNOME is default and don't get renamed
[10:15] <seb128> we will rename xfce files if required
[10:15] <seb128> why?
[10:16] <Amaranth> doesn't xfce just use gnome's menus?
[10:16] <Amaranth> in ubuntu, i mean
[10:16] <seb128> Amaranth: maybe, I don't use xfce :)
[10:16] <Riddell> don't see why kde should have to rename and gnome not grumble grumble
[10:16] <Amaranth> i can't find where it provides that file
[10:16] <seb128> ah ah
[10:16] <Amaranth> i figure it's in a postinst script or something
[10:16] <seb128> because GNOME rocks :)
[10:16] <Burgundavia> where does the system store mime types?
[10:16] <Amaranth> in .desktop files?
[10:17] <Riddell> yeah well KDE is special
[10:17] <Amaranth> wait, no
[10:17] <Burgundavia> nah, system wide stuff
[10:17] <seb128> /usr/share/mime/
[10:17] <seb128> /etc/mime.types
[10:17] <seb128> /etc/mailcap
[10:18] <seb128> depending on what mimesystem you want
[10:18] <lamont__> Riddell: there's at least one th in special. :0)
[10:18] <seb128> there is different ones
[10:20] <Burgundavia> the freedesktop one
[10:20] <Burgundavia> and I found what I was looking for
[10:21] <ogra> Riddell, ah, and i thought its a bug that KDE stores theme data in .desktop files... but special... well...then thats something else :)
[10:21] <tseng> ogra: its a feature
[10:21] <ogra> yep :)
[10:24] <Burgundavia> seb128, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7264 is marked as upstream fixed, but I don't have all the techincal knowledge to see if it is fixed or not
[10:28] <Burgundavia> a bug that is fixed upstream, but not yet in Ubuntu should be marked as Pending Upload, no? How do I do that?
[10:28] <seb128> Burgundavia: thanks for pointing it. The fix is not packaged yet
[10:28] <seb128> I'm changing this one
[10:28] <seb128> bugzilla.ubuntu.com is bugged
[10:29] <seb128> you need to change to ACCEPTED then you can change to PENDINGUPLOAD
[10:29] <Burgundavia> ah
[10:29] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:29] <pitti> seb128: no, you can switch even from UNCONFIRMED to pending
[10:29] <seb128> pitti: we talk about UPSTREAM bugs
[10:29] <pitti> ah, sorry
[10:29] <seb128> no worry :)
[10:31] <\sh> btw bugs ;)
[10:31] <\sh> can someone give a small comment on this bug: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11456
[10:32] <Burgundavia> I seem have a great deal of upstream bugs
[11:27] <cartel_> weird
[11:27] <cartel_> pam doesnt act like debian pam on ubuntu
[11:29] <cartel_> openssh-client bugged
[11:29] <cartel_> heh
[11:32] <cartel_> oh for fucks sake this is stupid
[11:41] <hub> do I need to do something special to upload a new package ?
[11:41] <hub> I'm packaging hugin, and I'd love to see it in universe for breezy
[11:42] <cartel_> what a steaming pile
[11:44] <bddebian> Damn cartel_, and crimsun thinks I'm a potty mouth. :-)
[11:44] <cartel_> oic, ssh-krb5 is in universe.
[11:44] <cartel_> therefore it is unusable. great!
[11:45] <cartel_> bddebian: i have crazy unsolvable winbind errors, so im trying krb5. which wont work either
[11:46] <bddebian> bddebian: I don't mind, I'm just joking around. :-)
[11:48] <cartel_> i think im gonna have to ditch ubuntu to get this out of the way and install sarge :/
[11:48] <ogra> cartel_, huh ?
[11:48] <cartel_> at least it works :/
[11:48] <ogra> cartel_, could you file a bug ?
[11:48] <cartel_> ogra: already done : already done
[11:48] <cartel_>     http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12123
[11:48] <ogra> hub, become a MOTU 
[11:49] <bddebian> ubuntu vs univers??
[11:49] <ogra> cartel_, what makes you think that there is a ubuntu vs universe issue ?
[11:50] <cartel_> ogra: read the bug
[11:50] <ogra> i see it
[11:50] <cartel_> ogra: openssh-client thinks its da bomb
[11:50] <ogra> cartel_, so file the bug in the right BTS and it will get fixed... there is no ubuntu vs. universe
[11:51] <cartel_> it will get fixed IN BREEZY
[11:51] <ajmitch> cartel_: openssh-* should have conflicts with ssh-krb5 now anyway
[11:52] <ogra> The following packages will be REMOVED:
[11:52] <ogra>   openssh-client openssh-server ssh ubuntu-base ubuntu-standard
[11:52] <ogra> The following NEW packages will be installed:
[11:52] <ogra>   ssh-krb5
[11:52] <ajmitch> ogra: coincidentally I just had the ssh changelog open
[11:52] <ogra> looks like there is a missing Conflicts: in hoary
[11:53] <ogra> cartel_, remove the above listed packages and you are fine
[11:53] <hub> ogra: ok
[11:54] <cartel_>   kdessh kdeutils kubuntu-desktop openssh-client openssh-server ssh
[11:54] <cartel_>   ssh-askpass-gnome ubuntu-base ubuntu-desktop
[11:54] <cartel_> i dont really want to remove kdeutils
[11:55] <cartel_> (yes this system has gnome and kde)
[11:56] <ogra> hmm, cartel_ talk to Riddell i have no clue about KDE 
[11:56] <cartel_> also bugged ssh-krb5 does not replace or prompt for replacement on sshd_config
[11:56] <cartel_> but does replace ssh_config
[11:56] <ajmitch> cartel_: 'apt-get install openssh-client- openssh-server- ssh-krb5 ' to remove those 2 & replace with ssh-krb5 then..
[11:57] <ajmitch> more of an #ubuntu issue, since it's been known & fixed in debian & breezy
[12:00] <pitti> Hi ajmitch 
[12:00] <pitti> ajmitch: any news about the SELinux packages?