Text Editing

=== karlheg [~karlheg@host-250-237.resnet.pdx.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === karlheg [~karlheg@host-250-237.resnet.pdx.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:50] Greetings [03:04] be back soon === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0011790326pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === otep[sch] [~otep@AP-203.167.31.177.sysads.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === judax [~judax@ppp-69-148-18-161.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~sean@ndn-165-139-210.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:52] African greetings [08:00] hey froud [08:01] hey jeffsch [08:01] say, which tools have trouble with ? [08:01] Hey froud [08:01] jeffsch: well you simply cant validate it [08:01] to validate you need to comment it out [08:02] why [08:03] it always validated for me... [08:03] with docbook 4.3 dtd anyway [08:03] using what xmllint [08:03] yeah [08:03] do other tools choke on it? [08:03] from Xerces [08:03] F A colon is not allowed in the name 'yelp:chunk-depth' when namespaces are enabled. quick-guide.xml file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome/quickguide/C/quick-guide.xml 15:19 [08:04] interesting [08:04] if xmllint is not giving an error then it is a bug in xmllint :-) [08:04] i was just gonna ask that :-) [08:05] the yelp: namespace is not enabled for docbook === ealden[class] [~Admi@proxy1.admu.edu.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden[class] [~Admi@proxy1.admu.edu.ph] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] [08:06] i'm thinking just delete the entirely for the styleguide because yelp is not a target for it [08:06] makes sense [08:07] default chunk-depth in yelp is 1 anyway, isn't it? [08:07] yes, if you bump up the number the toc is collapsed to that level [08:07] or the yelp chunk is done at that level [08:08] ok [08:08] I split the style guide into several files because that's what GNOME style guide does [08:09] and to learn a bit more about that stuff at the same time [08:09] yeah that's ok [08:09] you used external entities [08:09] so it won't cause more problems than it solves, you think? [08:09] no, it is a std practice [08:10] the only issue i found is in a validating editor such as jedit [08:10] jedit doesn't like it with no dtd declaration [08:10] yes, because the instances are not valid and well-formed independantly [08:11] you must validate from the root [08:11] or you can use xinclude [08:11] that will make each xml-instance valid and well-formed [08:11] so you can validate the instance [08:12] but if you have xrefs to external instances then they will not resolve [08:15] froud, I could use your help on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/DocumentStructure [08:15] and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/DocBookConventions [08:17] jeffsch: is there such a thing as a constant structure? [08:18] there are general conventions [08:18] parts, chapters, sections, etc [08:19] when to use article tag, when to use book tag [08:19] the most structure is in the doctype decl [08:19] and then the *info nodes [08:19] and the licenses at the end [08:19] what goes inbetween is variable [08:21] yes, but it is easier to contribute and easier for readers if there is consistency of structure from doc to doc [08:22] consistency is my main concern [08:22] Hmm, jeffsch I will try to see what is contanstant [08:22] perhaps this week end [08:22] I will add it in svn [08:22] is that ok [08:23] no problem! [08:23] i see that kde docteam has a list of docbook tags that are verboten in kde docs [08:24] yes [08:24] we are not tied to that [08:24] we must take that into consideration in case any of our kde stuff goes upstream [08:24] yes, [08:24] for stuff that will be in vendor [08:24] if people want to work in that way [08:25] I try to do that on books like kynaptic [08:25] but lauri watts is strict [08:25] i wonder how much of our stuff will be in vendor [08:25] nothing [08:25] vendor is a drop of upstream [08:25] for example I will drop kde docs in there [08:26] that way we can xinclude to our docs from there [08:26] but this is not without problems [08:26] kde also has a heap of external entities [08:26] I cant find them now [08:26] must speak to lauri about where to find them [08:26] :-) [08:27] ahh, so if we do any work on kde docs in vendor, they will be for the kde docteam, and therefore according to kde style guide? [08:28] yep yep [08:29] but as I undersatnd it, this is a team decision :-) [08:29] so I am waiting for confirmation [08:29] I do have one problem though [08:29] to do with i18n [08:29] if we use xinclude from vendor/kde [08:30] how will people in rosetta translate the parts that are xincludes [08:30] sounds to me like an argument against xincludes [08:31] so we can work with upstream and benefit, but there is a down side [08:31] it could be, but I preffer to look at it and resolve the problem [08:31] what I am thinking [08:32] preprocess docs that have xinlcudes and output to a completely resolved instance [08:32] commit that file to svn [08:32] upload that to rosetta [08:32] as pot [08:32] then on return route [08:33] disagregate [08:33] and move translations up stream to kde i18n [08:33] a bit hectic [08:33] but technically possible [08:33] what do you think [08:33] I have no doubt that will work, but (speaking for myself only) it sounds like a complicated process with lots of steps [08:33] each step is an opportunity for screw-up [08:33] yep yep, I agree [08:34] my preference is to just copy the stuff over (if allowed by license) and make the docs our own [08:34] but do you understand the benefits of xi [08:34] Ok that is one way [08:35] have you ever seen howmany commits go to kde docs [08:35] upstream I mean [08:35] no [08:35] Hmmm :-) many [08:35] now if you can harness the upstream comits [08:35] imagine [08:35] kde gets commit [08:35] we merge it to our vendor [08:36] our docs are updated [08:36] powerful stuff ehe [08:36] yes, provided the upstream stuff stays applicable to us [08:36] the trickle down is enormous [08:36] well it does [08:37] I dont see the point in forking upstream [08:37] what if kde changes standard menu, and kubuntu does not? [08:37] it is like that in gnome [08:37] some stuff we can use and some not [08:37] what can we use [08:37] for example the stuff about the kicker [08:38] or parts of Kcontrol [08:38] for example, it is more accurate to say that ubuntu desktop is gnome-based than it is to say it is gnome [08:38] I have a vision that using and repurposing upstream is good [08:38] jeffsch: agreed [08:39] therefore our inlcusion of upstream must be selective [08:39] and we cannot change xincluded parts that will move upstream to be ubuntu specific [08:39] when making changes in vendor, we must be careful [08:40] hmmm.... careful is hard... more opportunity for screw-up [08:40] yes, but the power is huge [08:40] it totally leverages on the power of distributed development [08:41] this is wht baz is a long term must [08:41] with this power does come an amount of responsability [08:42] also consider the two camps work methods [08:42] at kde everyone with commit can patch a doc without informing th emaintainer [08:42] at gnome you must first speak to the maintainer [08:43] so one comes back to the question [08:43] perhaps it is better just to work upstream [08:43] perhaps [08:43] dunno [08:43] this begs the question, "What are k/ubuntu docs? What is there scope?" [08:43] s/there/their [08:43] you're more experienced on this what do you think [08:45] I think that we need to repurpose upstream to fit the k/ubuntu [08:45] but with that comes challenges as you can see [08:45] if you look at the outline for kubuntu user guide [08:45] you will see that it follows the kubuntu desktop [08:45] granted this is kde [08:45] but it is not pure kde [08:46] while kde docs are pure kde [08:46] kubuntu has made changes to kde in order to make it kubuntu [08:46] i dunno maybe later, im in no mood lately to look into these docs [08:46] k/ubuntu docs are about the changes [08:47] jsgotangco: :-) [08:47] jsgotangco: it would make a good team debate :-) [08:47] it would provide vision, purpose and scope [08:49] i dont think i cannot contribute much in terms of technical stuff because i have none whatsoever [08:50] jsgotangco: I think it is important that more people undersatnd these issues [08:50] jsgotangco: otherwise I will make decisions and take more flack :-) [08:50] jsgotangco: you are selling yourself short! [08:50] i think i'll just go back to translating from our team [08:51] jsgotangco: part of the reason why I am having problems at the team is because of things like this [08:51] it is hard for me to convey all these things [08:51] but equally I need help from team members to make such decisions [08:52] in the past nobody had such knowledge, but now I see people like jeffsch and gtaylor can help [08:52] I would hope more will be able to do so [08:52] froud: then maybe slow down a bit... it may take longer, but in the end it will be stronger [08:53] jeffsch: yes, I now realise that I must slow down [08:53] jeffsch: but that has risks [08:54] if the technical hurdle in infrastructure is too big at the beginning, then much time is spent overcoming that hurdle [08:54] jeffsch: the risk is that much work gets done without consideration and then has to be changed sometime in the future [08:54] jeffsch: yes, and no writing :-( [08:55] jeffsch: historicaly I made a technical decision because nobody else could [08:55] as you can see, that has implicantions [08:56] froud: yes... you jumped too far ahead for us === jsgotangco goes back in a corner doing work [08:56] yes, and this is why I ask ppl to read Docbook XSL the complete guide === jeffsch is glad that at least *somebody* is doing work! :-) [08:57] *paid work* [08:57] wow! what's that like? [08:57] Hmm jsgotangco my pay check is a long way off [08:57] jsgotangco: as you know ;-) [08:58] don't make me feel worse === froud gives jsgotangco a love bug hug [08:58] hey jsgotangco, look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/WritingForInternationalAudience [08:59] it's pretty much empty, and I have no experience working with translations [08:59] I was hoping that you and mdke could make a contribution to this section of the style guide [09:00] i will research on the styleguide of others, i have no experience on doing this [09:01] see the gnome style guide. I was thinking of stealing a lot from the translation section of it [09:01] but I dnon't know what parts are good and what parts are bad (if any) === froud goes on school run [09:02] applicable part of gnome style guide is here: http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/locale.html [09:11] jeffsch: you still there [09:12] only for a couple more minutes [09:12] I wanted you to see something [09:12] can you svn up [09:13] done [09:13] then with pwd trunk/ do make faq-gnome [09:13] its not totally working, but does what I want for now [09:13] then open the output file pr01.html [09:14] [09:14] Text Editing [09:14] now compare it to in the faqguide [09:14] from line 69 [09:15] it's profiled [09:16] i'm guessing. i didn't actually look at it :) [09:16] yes, so now people can see w orking example ofhow profiles work [09:16] xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam profile.os "gnome" --stringparam base.dir $(FAQBASE) $(HTMLXSL) generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml [09:16] if profile.os "kde" then only kde is output [09:17] say, to change the topic, why do the gnome types use C instead of en? [09:17] I dunno [09:17] strange stuff [09:17] but we get a wanted error in our build ;-) [09:17] is there any reason why we have to use C? [09:17] will it interfere with anything? [09:18] what the error [09:18] no, the docbook xsl will default to en [09:18] it's not the "expected error" that bothers me. [09:19] it's C instead of en that bothers me [09:19] oh [09:19] it complicates things [09:19] its a gnome thang [09:19] agreed [09:19] what can I do :-) [09:19] if we didn't use C. if we used en instead, would it break anything? [09:19] you have a suggestion [09:20] not for us [09:20] if we are shipping html [09:20] if we ship xml then gnome wants C [09:20] yo mean yelp won't do en? [09:20] no yelp does not know about en on C [09:20] only C [09:21] :-) [09:21] I am not sure of the reason for C as apposed to en [09:21] I just accepted it and made a work around [09:22] ok. i have to run. c ya [09:22] I am already in enough dwang with gnome stuff, don't really want more [09:22] ok c ya [09:23] me gone to for awhile c ya'll later === froud [~froud@ndn-165-139-210.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [~jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:50] night all [12:51] night [12:51] night jsgotangco :) [12:51] morning everyone else [12:51] afternoon is after 12 here :-) [12:52] nearly 12 here too.. [12:52] still [12:52] oh yeah [12:52] hmmm [12:53] froud, please no infrastructure debates again :( [12:54] why, jeffsch asked [12:54] nothing wrong with talking about em [12:55] jsgotangco, will you sort a meeting next week btw? [12:55] ok nvm [12:55] hmm a 2-week interval meeting is a good plan [12:55] we still have to sort out some open issues [12:56] yes [12:56] Styleguide for one [12:56] next week then [12:56] when is the next meeting planned? [12:56] yeah styleguide number 1 on agenda ;) [12:56] let me check my calendar [12:56] maybe thursday again, if its a good day for peeps [12:56] hmmm [12:56] 30th? [12:57] what time zone are you in? [12:57] im in a horrible +8 time zone [12:57] ah [12:57] we can revolve around 12UTC and 22UTC [12:57] +10 here [12:57] but that would leave jeffsch if we do 12UTC [12:58] kilo [12:58] i don't mind 22UTC though [12:58] (6AM) [12:58] that makes it 8am here [12:59] mdke: what time is that for us? [12:59] 22utc is 23 my time === froud is hopeless at thse thingy's [12:59] midnight your time [12:59] alright, i'll call up a meeting again for the 30th 22UTC [12:59] that time zone are you in froud [12:59] he's in SA [12:59] mdke: OK [12:59] UTC +2 iirc [12:59] oh.. midnight [12:59] anyone ok with 30th 22UTC [12:59] yeah [01:00] i am, although I'm sorry for you jsgotangco [01:00] its ok [01:00] 6AM the sun is already up [01:00] i can't do 12UTC because jeffsch for sure won't be able to attend [01:01] ill put the StyleGuide on top list [01:01] before anything else [01:01] would a 2 week interval regular meeting be ok with you guys [01:02] +1 === jsgotangco embraces froud back with arms wide open [01:04] alright, ill whip up an agenda later and email when its done [01:04] as usual, agenda will be open for suggestions [01:05] but open issues will be tackled first [01:05] I have no issues [01:05] no i meant past issues still open from previous meetings [01:05] well no new issues [01:05] great :P [01:05] all issues are with you guys :-) [01:05] argghh [01:06] gee thanks a lot [01:06] just teasing [01:06] hmmm koffice in kubuntu instead of ooo [01:06] interesting.. [01:06] yeah [01:06] yep [01:06] Riddell want KOffice [01:06] ill leave that to the kde expert (froud) [01:07] you can always install ooo if you want it though [01:07] Not sure why he wants that [01:07] KOffice is not as ready as OOo [01:07] strange though unless Riddell wants a veryt KDE specific distro release [01:07] But I guess this is KDE thang [01:08] yeah [01:08] when i was with him and amu in sydney, they discussed a lot of very kde specific stuff [01:08] Dont mind either way [01:08] like appeal, etc. [01:09] froud, we can discuss the profiling thing at the meeting [01:09] well Riddell is high up in the KDE heirachy [01:09] mdke: up to you dude [01:09] you have a working sample now [01:09] yeah i think that's a good idea [01:09] yeah [01:09] sample? [01:09] yeah do make faq-gnome [01:10] ahh right [01:10] see the log [01:10] from morning my time [01:10] ah cool [01:10] I suggest ppl look at it and try understand it b4 discussing [01:10] but we can't always read the whole log [01:10] huh [01:10] posting to the list helps [01:11] Hmmm OK [01:11] will do now [01:11] is this similar to make status [01:11] wicked [01:11] yep yep [01:11] still have bugs to fix [01:11] we have lots of cool make tools now thanks to froud [01:11] need nice solution for image control [01:11] froud, if you post em all to the list then everyone can use em [01:12] he he [01:12] slowly dude [01:12] when they are finished sure [01:12] I just did the profile thing-a-ma-gingy to show you what I mean by profiles [01:12] I understand now that many ppl dont know what I am talking about onmany things [01:13] best way to show it is example [01:13] nice strategy [01:13] ok at least i can smile before i retire for the day [01:13] mdke: btw about logs see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForTheHasty [01:14] topic: irc [01:14] ok bye bye [01:14] nite jsgotangco [01:15] um-pah, um-pah, um-pah-pah one of these days I'll be a dog [01:15] me thinks of food [01:15] later === froud is now known as froud-away === _froud_ [~froud@ndn-165-139-210.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:39] _froud_, yeah i know where the logs are, its in the topic too, just that we don't all have time to read em all [01:39] gtg [01:39] bbl === abelli [~john@1a2fc2eeb774c430.session.tor] has joined #ubuntu-doc === christian [~christian@dhcp-214-018.ethz.ch] has joined #ubuntu-doc === JonA [~jonathan@alxpc1jaa2.alx.aber.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse_ [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === gtaylor [~gtaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [~ealden@219.90.93.78] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveaz [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.209.48] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Njal [~chatzilla@dsl-80-43-183-253.access.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:09] Having a lil xml problem [05:10] hi Njal [05:10] lo [05:11] Been writing in the how to find sites of interest in the userguide.xml for gnome [05:11] and i can't seem to get links working [05:11] hyperlinks or links in the wiki? [05:12] hyperlinks [05:12] you make links by referring to entities in global.ent [05:12] you should see plenty of examples in the userguide already, search for ulink [05:13] I use this [05:14] Linux User Group's [05:14] the end tag should be [05:14] it didnt even like [05:15] Njal, the best way is to look at existing examples in the document [05:15] Dammit that was it, thanks, how did i miss that [05:15] oh, and a spelling thing: it's Groups, not Group's :) [05:16] kk changing that now [05:17] mdke: howzit goin? [05:17] um not sure if what i've wrote is good enough, should i just upload it to where ever? [05:17] jeffsch, good thanks, you? [05:17] Njal, you have to create a patch and send it to the list [05:18] fine... except for the dalek nightmares! :-) [05:18] hmmm can't understand why it won't let me be jjesse on this channel only allows jjesse_ :( [05:18] Daleks? You watch Dr Who? [05:18] KK patch, how? [05:18] Njal, the way to check your work and create a patch is explained at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository [05:18] Njal: yah [05:19] jeffsch: It's awesome [05:19] Njal, try and have a look at the Docteam pages, they are helpful and will save you time [05:19] thanks for the link [05:19] jeffsch, :) [05:19] wasn't it awesome? [05:20] yah. I can't wait for the finale. [05:20] heh [05:20] patience... [05:20] here they've already started the adverts for the christmas episode [05:20] weird [05:21] Really [05:21] When [05:21]