[12:35] <froud> + text releated documents + text getting help (KHelpCenter, Community Support) + start writing organization kuserguide.xml 
[12:35] <froud> would like reviews
[12:36] <froud> later, night, night, don't let the bed bugs bite
[01:06] <mdke> evenin all
[01:07] <Burgundavia> salut
[01:09] <squinn> mdke, question
[01:10] <mdke> hello squinn
[01:10] <mdke> shoot
[01:13] <squinn> where's the file
[01:13] <squinn> that has all the "links"
[01:13] <squinn> like %ubuntu = http://ubuntulinux.org
[01:13] <squinn> use.desc i think it's called
[01:13] <mdke> the entities are in libs/global.ent
[01:13] <mdke> e.g. &ubuntu;
[01:14] <squinn> thanks
[01:16] <mdke> np
[01:16] <mdke> squinn, are you working on something at the moment?
[01:17] <mdke> if so, you should submit patches often, even if they are small, because that way if other changes are made to the guide, two people don't edit the same document
[01:18] <squinn> mdke, yes, i'm getting ready to submit a patch
[01:18] <squinn> i'm finishing up a section
[01:19] <mdke> ok, in future though you should patch regularly, so that two people don't work on the same section :)
[01:20] <mdke> squinn, also, always do svn up before making the patch
[01:22] <squinn> mdke, I know. I've been through a few reinstalls.
[01:23] <squinn> mdke, so I've not been so active in docteam. I'm finishing up now..I'm not done with a section, but patching.
[01:23] <mdke> cool thanks for the work
[01:23] <squinn> My svn account is going to canonical now though.
[01:24] <mdke> ok, feel free to come in here to ask questions about how the system works, its normal to have a few things to discover early on
[01:27] <squinn> right, thanks, mdke 
[01:27] <squinn> I should 'make ug' right?
[01:27] <mdke> Burgundavia, around still?
[01:27] <Burgundavia> always
[01:28] <mdke> squinn, you can check the doc as xml, using the procedure outlined on the StepbyStepRepository page, or make the html yeah
[01:28] <mdke> Burgundavia, how does one close bugs in malone?
[01:28] <squinn> i did both
[01:28] <squinn> mdke, I've always wondered that [bout Malone] 
[01:28] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:28] <mdke> squinn, most important is to use the ./validate.sh script
[01:28] <Burgundavia> you should just be able to do it
[01:28] <squinn> yeah, it found an error...fixed it though
 goes before </sect1> -- must remember that
[01:28] <Burgundavia> which bug?
[01:28] <mdke> Burgundavia, 333
[01:29] <mdke> malone is a really terrible interface right now
[01:29] <mdke> i can't wait for it to improve
[01:30] <Burgundavia> found it
[01:30] <Burgundavia> you have to click on the line that says
[01:31] <Burgundavia> "ubuntu seahorse"
[01:31] <Burgundavia> can I close the bug as fixed?
[01:31] <mdke> np, i've got it
[01:32] <Burgundavia> mpt, ping
[01:32] <Burgundavia> the UI is going to improve, we hope
[01:32] <mdke> i hope so
[01:35] <mdke> Burgundavia, what do you mean by "page page in history" (email)?
[01:35] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:36] <mdke> squinn, cool, will look at patch now! thanks
[01:36] <Burgundavia> I am actually quite well spoken, I just can't write worth a damn
[01:36] <Burgundavia> page moves in history
[01:36] <Burgundavia> to allow easy rollbacks
[01:36] <Burgundavia> WP just introduced it in 1.5
[01:36] <Burgundavia> as there was a vandal they called Willy on Wheels
[01:37] <mdke> page moves as in renames?
[01:37] <Burgundavia> would move pages to things like Wikipedia is Communism
[01:37] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:37] <mdke> agreed
[01:37] <Burgundavia> I wish moin would drop the stupid icons and use text
[01:37] <mdke> which?
[01:37] <Burgundavia> top right corner
[01:38] <Burgundavia> the icons are badly created and don't illustrate what they are supposed to
[01:38] <Burgundavia> and text works just find
[01:38] <Burgundavia> s/fine
[01:39] <mdke> well the UI should be customisable
[01:39] <mdke> do the icons have hover?
[01:39] <Burgundavia> hmm, no idea
[01:39] <Burgundavia> I just figured out by looking at the hyperlinks they were
[01:40] <Burgundavia> you need a good default
[01:40] <Burgundavia> as 90% of users never change the default
[01:40] <mdke> but our wiki doesn't use those icons
[01:40] <Burgundavia> yes it does
[01:41] <Burgundavia> oh
[01:41] <mdke> i don't see em
[01:41] <Burgundavia> udu wiki does
[01:41] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:41] <Burgundavia> why do we have findpage and search?
[01:42] <mdke> yeah udu is basically moin default i think
[01:42] <Burgundavia> get info and show changes should be merged, into history
[01:42] <mdke> yes
[01:42] <mdke> get info is last diff
[01:42] <mdke> show changes are all diffs
[01:42] <mdke> neither expression are very intuitive
[01:42] <mdke> are/is
[01:43] <Burgundavia> there is no need to show the last diff
[01:43] <Burgundavia> just a general history thing
[01:43] <mdke> agreed
[01:43] <Burgundavia> in fact, the default icons are even worse
[01:44] <Burgundavia> 8 small icons in the top corner
[01:45] <Burgundavia> just joined #moin to ask about history stuff
[01:45] <mdke> in the meantime you could ask henrik if he thinks its a good idea to merge the two, he could just do it on our wiki
[01:45] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:46] <Burgundavia> I shall fire another incoherent email to the list about that
[01:46] <mdke> lol
[01:47] <mdke> we have a slight problem
[01:47] <mdke> squinn's patch overlaps with njals
[01:48] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:49] <Burgundavia> 1. reject both and get them both commit access, so they can fight over it
[01:49] <Burgundavia> 2. rewrite the 2 into a better one
[01:49] <mdke> i'm gonna commit squinns cos there is nothing wrong with it
[01:49] <mdke> then get njal's, which is much more substantial but a bit dodgy, refined a bit more
[01:50] <Burgundavia> another moron who did an "expert" install and is now reporting bugs about it
[02:15] <mdke> hmm
[02:15] <mdke> maybe I should do a breezy install on this computer
[02:17] <Burgundavia> hmm, totem-gstreamer still sucks for non-freee stuff
[02:17] <Burgundavia> too bad
[02:17] <mdke> tricky issue that
[02:17] <mdke> how is breezy these days?
[02:18] <Burgundavia> I have a gdm issue
[02:18] <Burgundavia> but X starts
[02:18] <Burgundavia> I seem to have lost my custom theme
[02:19] <mdke> X starts?
[02:19] <mdke> cool
[02:19] <mdke> with tinkering or without?
[02:19] <Burgundavia> no tinkering
[02:19] <Burgundavia> I have never tinkered with my X server
[02:19] <Burgundavia> no symlinks, no nothing
[02:20] <Burgundavia> that is stupid and gentooish
[02:20] <mdke> well many people have been fixing their symlinks in order to get X working in breezy
[02:20] <mdke> that makes them gentooish?
[02:21] <Burgundavia> then when daniels releases a fixed version, the symlinked stuff usually breaks
[02:21] <mdke> sure
[02:21] <mdke> but half the devs have been doing it
[02:21] <mdke> include daniels himself probably ;)
[02:22] <Burgundavia> hmm, I doubt it
[02:23] <Burgundavia> the reason they break is that the package will not overwrite the symlink with the correct file
[02:23] <Burgundavia> as it it has been created by a user
[02:23] <mdke> yeah
[02:23] <mdke> but earlier it broke regardless of that
[02:23] <mdke> anyway, now its fixed
[02:23] <Burgundavia> as we get closer to July 7th, there is likely to be less breakage
[02:24] <mdke> what is that date?
[02:24] <Burgundavia> Upstream Version Freeze
[02:24] <mdke> thats pretty early
[02:24] <mdke> is that earlier than for hoary?
[02:25] <Burgundavia> nope
[02:25] <Burgundavia> actually, one week
[02:25] <Burgundavia> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseSchedule
[03:02] <squinn> mdke, i had to check that serpentine was official cd burning software
[03:02] <squinn> i did that with #ubuntu-devel first, and it is serpentine, not nautilus [that's data cd burning] 
[03:02] <mdke> squinn, yeah you did the right thing to write that as a comment
[03:05] <Burgundavia> serpentine is the official, afaik
[03:06] <Burgundavia> it is already in main
[03:06] <squinn> It is, Burgundavia.
[03:06] <squinn> According to #ubuntu-devel
[03:06] <squinn> Burgundavia, do you think that after the UVF, it'd be safer to upgrade to Breezy?
[03:07] <Burgundavia> might be
[03:07] <Burgundavia> the major piece of breakage is X
[03:07] <Burgundavia> and I have no idea what the schedule for that is
[03:07] <squinn> Burgundavia, let me center Breezy discussion on docteam.
[03:08] <squinn> There is a crucial release of gnome-doc-utils coming asap, according to main developer upstream
[03:08] <squinn> The package itself is in Breezy, but the older version. After UVF, the new version can't come in, or can it?
[03:09] <Burgundavia> docs are different
[03:09] <Burgundavia> they go in very late
[03:11] <squinn> ok
[03:11] <squinn> this is my first [heh]  release 
[03:11] <squinn> in this position
[03:11] <squinn> i was here for hoary...left for gentoo..came back
[04:53] <mpt> Burgundavia: pong
[04:54] <mpt> Burgundavia: I just happened to be editing [[Iran] ]  a couple of days ago, and went on to the Talk page, and found you there
[05:25] <mpt> jdub: ping
[07:47] <Burgundavia> mpt, I am quite active on Wikipedia
[07:48] <Burgundavia> mpt, I was pinging you regarding the malone interface
[07:48] <Burgundavia> is there a timeline for that changing?
[07:48] <mpt> Not a public one
[07:48] <mpt> Changing to what?
[07:49] <Burgundavia> the bug editing thing
[07:49] <Burgundavia> where you get different screens by clicking in different places
[07:50] <mpt> could you be a *little* more specific?
[07:50] <mpt> :-)
[07:50] <Burgundavia> sorry
[07:50] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:51] <Burgundavia> if I click on edit bugs in the portlet on the left, I get a different page then if I click on the link "ubuntu PACKAGENAME"
[07:51] <Burgundavia> I understand about the many bugs/one package thing
[07:51] <mpt> You mean, one bug, many packages?
[07:52] <Burgundavia> ya
[07:52] <mpt> Burgundavia: By "Edit bugs in the portlet on the left" do you mean "Edit Bug Details" in the portlet on the right?
[07:52] <Burgundavia> yes, sorry
[07:52] <Burgundavia> is late here
[07:53] <mpt> heh
[07:54] <Burgundavia> the iran thing was probably someone asking on #wikipedia for support
[07:54] <mpt> Well, those pages are pages I'm not allowed to change at the moment
[07:55] <mpt> So there's not much I can do about it, unfortunately
[07:55] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:56] <mpt> If you have *specific* suggestions on how to fix it, please do report them
[07:56] <Burgundavia> on another note, did you see my latest blog
[07:56] <Burgundavia> I am trying to think of a good way to do that
[07:57] <mpt> Your link to Katimavik is broken
[07:57] <Burgundavia> ?
[07:57] <Burgundavia> hmm
[07:57] <Burgundavia> oops
[07:58] <mpt> I like the idea
[07:58] <Burgundavia> the Eye of Gnome maintainer was interested as well
[07:58] <Burgundavia> it wouldn't take too much effort to hack eog and gimp to do that
[07:59] <Burgundavia> see how it goes
[07:59] <mpt> with the possible exception of the Manage button
[07:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:59] <Burgundavia> that would have to come later
[07:59] <mpt> just as you'd like to see every viewer have an integrated Edit interface
[08:00] <mpt> I'd like to see a collection manager rather than a file manager
[08:00] <Burgundavia> I had the same thought
[08:00] <Burgundavia> that the manage stuff should actually be part of the file manager
[08:01] <Burgundavia> the idea was spawned by that 3.0 mockup and long thread about making evince view everything by default/the divide between editors and viewers
[08:01] <Burgundavia> s/editors/editers
[08:01] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:01] <Burgundavia> right
[08:01] <mpt> yah
[08:02] <Burgundavia> that is something that NO other desktop could do
[08:02] <Burgundavia> well, maybe KDE could do it
[08:02] <Burgundavia> but not OS X and Windows
[08:02] <mpt> Often I'm playing a movie or an audio file and thinking "hmm, I wish I could crop it"
[08:02] <mpt> I understand Quicktime Pro can do it
[08:02] <mpt> but the normal player can't
[08:03] <mpt> and iTunes can sorta kinda crop audio, but it forgets the cropping whenever I reimport the music, because it's keeping the info in its own database instead of in metadata attached to the file itself
[08:03] <Burgundavia> what do you think of the interface of totem vs. idvd?
[08:04] <mpt> I haven't used iDVD
[08:04] <mpt> because I don't have any DVDs
[08:04] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:04] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:04] <Burgundavia> I have used idvd on my gf's laptop and it sucks compared to totem
[08:05] <mpt> It's rather bothersome that (a) Totem "Movie Player" (sic) is the default program for audio files, and (b) that results in visualization effects that I can't turn off
[08:05] <Burgundavia> yes, those are annoying
[08:05] <Burgundavia> this is funny "  Manila faithful flock to bury Sin" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4628957.stm
[08:05] <mpt> All the recent files in its "Movie" (sic) menu are Ogg Vorbis
[08:07] <Burgundavia> lol
[08:09] <Burgundavia> that audio issue is due to upstream not having a good media player
[08:09] <Burgundavia> sonance is looking quite nice
[08:09] <Burgundavia> very similar to iTunes
[08:10] <mpt> crap, I need a yellow fever vaccination
[08:10] <Burgundavia> to go where?
[08:10] <mpt> Brazil
[08:10] <Burgundavia> ah, for Launchpad stuff
[08:11] <mpt> because my flights between South Africa and New York happened to stop in Senegal
[08:11] <Burgundavia> salut froud 
[08:12] <froud> African Greetings
[08:12] <Burgundavia> mpt, regarding HelpfulHelp, is there movement in the Breezy timeline and how can that be helped along?
[08:13] <mpt> Well, yelp needs to be hacked so that it opens a particular "book" rather than opening the ToC
[08:13] <mpt> I need to talk to shaunm about that
[08:13] <Burgundavia> mpt, he is in gnome-hackers on irc.gimp.net right now
[08:14] <mpt> I just haven't had time for much of it yet
[08:14] <mpt> but I have to go right now
[08:14] <mpt> coz my sister's picking me up
[08:14] <mpt> bbl
[08:14] <Burgundavia> cya
[11:37] <Njal> lo
[11:37] <mdke> hi Njal 
[11:37] <mdke> :)
[11:37] <mdke> got my email?
[11:37] <Njal> yeah, im just a little confused on how the system works
[11:37] <Njal> nothing big really
[11:37] <Njal> just wanna make sure i get it right
[11:39] <mdke> yeah its confusing because since you made your patch, the file has been edited
[11:39] <Njal> think is i have done the svn up and all my work is still there
[11:39] <mdke> yeah
[11:40] <mdke> ok let's do this
[11:40] <mdke> you got your patch safe?
[11:40] <Njal> the .diff file?
[11:40] <mdke> yes
[11:40] <mdke> just making sure I have a copy in case
[11:40] <Njal> yes i have my patch then
[11:40] <mdke> ok
[11:41] <mdke> you can delete the file userguide.xml and then restore it doing svn up
[11:41] <Njal> got it now
[11:42] <mdke> ok now apply your patch using patch < nameofpatch
[11:42] <Njal> neil@ubuntu:~/ubuntu-doc/gnome/userguide/C $ patch < userguide.xml.diff
[11:43] <Njal> patching file userguide.xml
[11:43] <Njal> Hunk #2 FAILED at 974.
[11:43] <Njal> Hunk #3 succeeded at 1427 (offset 5 lines).
[11:43] <Njal> 1 out of 3 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file userguide.xml.rej
[11:43] <mdke> ok check out that file userguide.xml.rej, see what is in it
[11:43] <mdke> it might be the audio burning section
[11:44] <Njal> both the audio CD bit and the data CD bit
[11:45] <mdke> yeah that is probably because that section changes since you made your patch
[11:45] <mdke> ok now you should work on userguide.xml, check that everything has been put in the right place and so on
[11:46] <mdke> if you want, you can add things to the burning section
[11:46] <mdke> although note that nautilus does not do audio burning
[11:46] <Njal> is it a program integrated with nautilus then?
[11:47] <mdke> there is a program shipped with breezy to do audio burning
[11:47] <mdke> called serpentine
[11:47] <Njal> ah
[11:47] <Njal> then my work on those sections is obsolete then
[11:47] <Njal> since i am not running breezy and can't until the 4th or 5th of next month
[11:48] <mdke> you can make a note that it needs revising for breezy
[11:49] <mdke> if you start to write sections that have nothing right now, that is always useful
[11:50] <Njal> Well do you know if nautilus will still have that built in burning directory? Well it's not really up to Ubuntu is it it's gnome's baby
[11:50] <mdke> i'm sure nautilus-cd-burner will continue to exist
[11:50] <mdke> but Ubuntu makes decisions about what software to ship independently of gnome
[11:51] <mdke> personally I didn't know nautilus-cd-burner did audio
[11:51] <mdke> i haven't tried it
[11:52] <Njal> I think it does, well i can include my section and if it's still there in breezy to a degree it'll still be relevent
[11:52] <mdke> the thing is, it conflicts with the section already there which speaks of serpentine, and the author said that he asked in #ubuntu-devel to ensure that this was correct
[11:54] <Njal> I'll not contiune with the audio then, since serpentine will be used, should i add the bit about data CD's?
[11:54] <mdke> yeah definitely
[11:54] <Njal> kk
[11:54] <mdke> :)
[11:55] <mdke> thanks for that work
[11:55] <mdke> after you've checked that everything is in the right place, patch and resend
[11:56] <Njal> also i did some work on the command line section, is that any good, im thinking like the top ten most useful commands to remember or the like, i might need some help on that since some commands i use i don't actually know what some of the argument's stand for etc
[11:57] <mdke> yeah that is a cool section
[11:57] <mdke> things like "ls" "cd" and so on
[11:58] <mdke> a basic guide
[11:58] <mdke> maybe there is some material on the wiki
[11:58] <Njal> right i wasn't sure if i should have shown how to do stuff like that but i will do basic stuff like how to create a directory etc
[11:59] <Njal> anyway i will patch this then work on the command lin
[11:59] <Njal> line
[11:59] <mdke> awesome
[12:05] <Njal> oh finally made the patch
[12:12] <Njal> And submitted
[12:13] <mdke> great thanks!
[12:13] <Njal> np
[12:14] <mdke> applying
[12:15] <Njal> cool thanks
[12:16] <mdke> btw did you use bluefish?
[12:17] <Njal> no i found GEdit's spell checker
[12:17] <mdke> that works too
[12:17] <mdke> i am in love with bluefish
[12:17] <mdke> it will add tags for you
[12:17] <Njal> Personally i would have prefered NVU but it wouldn't open the xml file
[12:19] <Njal> so, if you don't mind me asking, what do you folks do? Apart from write ubuntu documentation?
[12:20] <mdke> in life?
[12:20] <mdke> most are in computing
[12:20] <mdke> i'm a lawyer
[12:21] <mdke> just finished law school
[12:21] <Njal> wow. I'm a humble student, just finished a two year course, started when i was 16
[12:21] <Njal> Now ready to go to uni to do networking and networked programming
[12:21] <mdke> nice
[12:21] <mdke> where do ya live?
[12:22] <Njal> York, England, well i don't live IN york but it's the nearest big city, i live about 15 miles away from it, yourself?
[12:22] <mdke> london
[12:22] <mdke> what city?
[12:23] <Njal> I live near York
[12:23] <mdke> oh i c, you mean york is the nearest big city
[12:23] <mdke> gotcha
[12:23] <Njal> yup
[12:23] <mdke> cool
[12:24] <Njal> You live in london, heared of the amature transplants?
[12:25] <mdke> no
[12:25] <Njal> You into rather warped commendy?
[12:26] <Njal> commedy
[12:28] <mdke> depends how warped i think
[12:28] <Njal> Have you ever thought about how bad the state of the underground is?
[12:29] <mdke> which underground?
[12:29] <Njal> the london underground
[12:29] <Njal> the tube's
[12:30] <mdke> yes
[12:30] <mdke> it sucks balls
[12:30] <Njal> http://www.union.ic.ac.uk/medic/fitness/home.php?type=video
[12:30] <Njal> make sure you have the flash plugin and an mp3 player
[12:30] <mdke> ah i have that song
[12:31] <mdke> haven't seen a video tho
[12:31] <Njal> it's funny
[12:31] <Njal> i thought you said you havn't heard of them
[12:32] <mdke> i hadn't
[12:32] <mdke> just know the song
[12:33] <Njal> ah go to the listen section and listen to snippets 
[12:35] <mdke> okies
[12:35] <mdke> that song was well publicised here ;)
[12:35] <mdke> even made our free newspaper "the metro"
[12:36] <Njal> we have the metro up in York on the busses and the like, it's also avalible in Scotland too ;) 
[12:36] <mdke> is it the same one?
[12:37] <Njal> I presume so, blue METRO written on the top
[12:37] <mdke> cool
[12:38] <Njal> i never read it' though, all the news i get s google alerts sent to my inbox so i can read it when i have the time
[12:38] <mdke> :)
[12:40] <Njal> Have you ever been in court when some of these famously stupid questions have been asked, you know like 
[12:41] <Njal> When was your child concieved?
[12:41] <Njal> tuesday 24 august
[12:41] <Njal> what were you doing at the time
[12:41] <mdke> heh
[12:41] <mdke> not yet
[12:41] <Njal> Are these real? Or has someone with too much spare time made them up?
[12:41] <mdke> could be real i guess
[12:42] <Njal> I've always wondered
[01:04] <rob^> just a quick question, people writing the Userguide, are you using Breezy now?
[01:04] <mdke> some are
[01:05] <rob^> much difference between it and hoary?
[01:05] <rob^> apart from it being up to date
[01:05] <mdke> i don't know, i haven't tried it
[01:05] <mdke> its only recently started working
[01:05] <rob^> oh
[01:06] <rob^> just thinking it might be a good idea if I'm going to contribute to it
[01:06] <mdke> yeah i agree
[01:06] <rob^> oh well, time for a dist-upgrade :)
[01:07] <mdke> save your things
[01:07] <rob^> ah, yeah
[01:07] <mdke> i will probably make a separate install for breezy
[01:07] <mdke> keep my hoary
[01:07] <rob^> I would to if I had a bigger hard drive
[01:07] <mdke> how big is it?
[01:07] <rob^> 40gig
[01:07] <mdke> twice the size of mine ;)
[01:08] <rob^> :)
[01:08] <rob^> most of it is a /home partition
[01:08] <rob^> still left from my Debian install infact
[01:12] <mdke> gah
[01:12] <mdke> evolution keeps crashing on me
[01:16] <rob^> bah
[01:16] <rob^> firefox is nicer
[01:16] <rob^> doh
[01:16] <rob^> I ment thunderbird
[01:16] <mdke> yeah
[01:16] <mdke> what do you use for a calendar?
[01:17] <rob^> just click on the clock on the top right of your screen
[01:17] <rob^> its got a drop down one
[01:17] <mdke> yes, that is evolution ;)
[01:17] <rob^> well, thats the only thing I use it for
[01:18] <mdke> oh right
[01:18] <rob^> or just use date
[01:18] <mdke> appointments and stuff?
[01:24] <mdke> rob^, this is one of the good things about using evolution with Ubuntu: you get your appointments in the drop down menu: http://www.mdke.org/images/calendar.png
[01:26] <rob^> sounds like a good idea, I normally just use the gnome todo applet
[01:26] <rob^> might have a look however
[01:26] <rob^> ah that is pretty good actually
[01:27] <rob^> dam netsplit
[02:18] <froud> jjesse: ping
[02:18] <jjesse> froud pong
[02:19] <froud> profiling
[02:19] <jjesse> yes
[02:19] <froud> the only case where I have implimented it is in the generic instal guide
[02:19] <froud> The similarity between gnome and kde is because much stuff was based on the gnome work
[02:20] <froud> it makes sense to profile, if, these common parts remain the same
[02:20] <froud> however, we are not required to make it as such
[02:20] <jjesse> are all the documents going to contain the preface, conventions used etc
[02:20] <jjesse> cause it would be silly to be copying and pasting everything 
[02:20] <froud> Well it should use an XInclude
[02:21] <froud> kuserguide is setup for support to XInclude/XPointer
[02:21] <froud> conventions are a common object
[02:21] <froud> we only have a single xml instance for that
[02:22] <froud> Preface can change between books
[02:22] <froud> so it is not a common object in entire
[02:22] <froud> rather parts such as conventions would be common objects
[02:22] <jjesse> ok
[02:22] <froud> it is debate able whether or not the about stuff should be common
[02:23] <froud> for you and I profilig is not an issue, but for newbies, mdke has point
[02:24] <froud> the more advance our feature set use of docbook is, the more a newbie must learn
[02:24] <froud> only solution is that the newbie will get support from us and that assumes a willingness to learn
[02:25] <froud> like when you did your learning on xslt
[02:25] <froud> catch 22 I'm afraid
[02:25] <froud> on the oneside profiling can save hours of work
[02:25] <froud> on the other it raises the barrier to entery
[02:26] <rob^> being a newbie, i found it a pain initally but its not that hard
[02:26] <rob^> its very obvious actually
[02:26] <jjesse> agreed rob^
[02:27] <froud> glad you find it easy. I think mdke would like to discuss it and hear from people before using it
[02:27] <rob^> ok then
[02:27] <froud> what I can say, is that it is usual for KDE to ship HTML
[02:28] <froud> therefore there is a lot more scope for advanced feature use in the kde/ section of the repos
[02:28] <froud> you will notice that the kuserguide has a glossary and index section
[02:28] <froud> and uses XInclude
[02:28] <jjesse> yes i did
[02:29] <froud> the aboutkubuntu document is actually an XInclude from the aboutkubuntu/C/ directory
[02:30] <froud> another feature of the KDE docs is that they will utilize the help:/ kio-slave
[02:30] <froud> the CSS and refs to KDE docs are setup using this IO-SLAVE
[02:31] <froud> For an example of kio-slave usage see the kquickguide
[02:31] <froud> the application of profiling is KDE docs is not out of the question because KDE ships html
[02:32] <froud> it may be a possability that kde docs can therefore use profiling, it would be especially useful when maintaining versions for i386 and PPC
[02:33] <froud> I also see application for DCOP
[02:33] <froud> but wont go there for enow :-)
[02:35] <froud> jjesse: do you know what peices you want to write yet?
[02:36] <jjesse> froud not yet, but i mean i can work on the preface, but won't it be just copying and pasting from the gnome userguide?
[02:37] <froud> Not if you dont want to. You do what you feel is good for the book. Let the creativity flow, feel free to think outside the box
[02:37] <jjesse> ok i'll work on the preface, i'll attach a <writing> to it like mentioned
[02:37] <froud> btw. I hope you guys are checking my work :-) and will build on it. Please note that I am not attached to the words I write
[02:38] <froud> I changes the patches from gtaylor
[02:38] <froud> you may have noticed
[02:38] <froud> I expanded on them substantially
[02:38] <jjesse> ok
[02:38] <jjesse> likewise i'm not attached to the words i write otherwise i wouldn't be doing it in an open way like this
[02:39] <rob^> I'm attached, I'm just a giving type of person :)
[02:41] <froud> also checkout Related Documents //sect1[@id="sect-related"] 
[02:49] <jjesse> froud grin sometimes it seems like all you do all day long is write docs for here :)
[02:49] <jjesse> i wish i had time like that
[03:29] <froud> jjesse: believe me I am doing much more than just writing docs here :-)
[08:25] <froud> http://lnix.net/~froud/ updated
[08:36] <Njal> lo
[08:37] <froud> hi
[08:37] <froud> Njal: nice patch dude
[08:37] <froud> thanks
[08:37] <froud> ;-)
[08:37] <Njal> Not a problem, we're all here to do the same things
[08:38] <froud> sure
[08:38] <Njal> can i ask who had the same GNOME problem as i did? Someone needs the bug report number
[08:39] <uniq> froud: just a question; is there a reason for the big F in 'Free terms' - http://lnix.net/~froud/about-kubuntu/C/index.html - under "The team behind Kubuntu makes the following commitment to its users:" second commitment.
[08:40] <froud> it's not technically correct to write it that way, I guess the author was using some poetic license
[08:40] <froud> I'll patch it
[08:42] <uniq> nice :)
[08:46] <uniq> froud: accesibility -> accessibility on the next line
[08:48] <froud> snap, I just did a spell check and fixed a few
[08:48] <froud> uniq: btw, spelling must be US not UK :-)
[08:48] <uniq> ok.
[08:49] <froud> but you are right that is a mistake
[08:49] <froud> uniq: has there been any decision on KOffice for Kubuntu yet?
[08:50] <uniq> no.. but after the discussion in #ubuntu-meeting i have a feeling oo.o will be selected.
[08:51] <uniq> but no decision were made.
[08:51] <froud> :-)
[08:51] <froud> OK
[08:57] <uniq> " that the Free Software community" and "principles of free software and open source development" - why the difference in capitalization ? 
[09:02] <jeffsch> uniq: good question
[09:02] <jeffsch> maybe the author thought that since "Free Software" is used as an adjective,
[09:02] <jeffsch> and "free software" is used as a noun, there should be a difference.
[09:03] <uniq> i have no clue.. it's not my native language. just looks strage to me.
[09:03] <froud> native noun "Free Software
[09:03] <froud> free software non-native
[09:04] <froud> but in reality both could be lower case
[09:04] <froud> ppl wont note the difference :-)
[09:04] <froud> uniq: you're actually quite good at this. want a full time job :-)
[09:04] <jeffsch> froud: by "native" you mean "nominative"?
[09:05] <jeffsch> in any case, this situation is something we should consider for the style guide
[09:05] <uniq> froud: i have a full-sparetime-jobb on kubuntu already. support+some packaging but hey.,. i can sleep less :)
[09:06] <froud> yep participation on FOSS projects leads to sleep deprivation (spelling)
[09:07] <uniq> correct spelling.. says 'dict deprivation' :)
[09:07] <jeffsch> yes, and docteam has brought me many sleepless nights :-)
[09:09] <froud> jeffsch: perhaps use rule that we use lc unless it is a noun
[09:12] <jeffsch> froud: perhaps. there are lots of grey areas there...
[09:12] <froud> jeffsch: that's why I dont want to be the editor ;-)
[09:12] <jeffsch> in editing class we discovered there is much debate between lc an uc in such cases
[09:13] <jeffsch> it boils down to personal preference
[09:13] <froud> I may write all day, but punctuation, spelling and grammar, etc. are my pain
[09:13] <froud> that goodness for editors
[09:13] <jeffsch> yeah. writers don't care much about that stuff. "The editor will catch it..."
[09:14] <froud> yep, and editors love me cause I don't argue about their decisions :-)
[09:14] <uniq> "Kubuntu is KDE, a powerful Free Software graphical " - again this looks strange to me. what was you conclusion? 
[09:16] <jeffsch> we're leaning toward lower case at the moment
[09:16] <uniq> "It combines ease of use, contemporary functionality, and outstanding graphical design " - comma? 
[09:17] <froud> which the one before the and
[09:17] <jeffsch> you think there's an extra one before the "and"?
[09:17] <uniq> yes?
[09:17] <froud> in this case it is correct
[09:17] <jeffsch> yikes! another gray area
[09:17] <froud> IMHO
[09:17] <jeffsch> a comma before the and is called the "series comma"
[09:17] <froud> Chicago Manual of Style agrees with me
[09:18] <uniq> i compared to " email software, programming languages and tools and of course, several games."
[09:18] <jeffsch> most style guides want the series comma, but others hate it
[09:18] <jeffsch> two comma errors there...
[09:18] <jeffsch> should be no comma after "course"
[09:19] <froud> jeffsch: have you noticed how Chicago and Sunday Times don't agree
[09:19] <jeffsch> nope. but I'm not surprised.
[09:19] <uniq> " In recent times, much work has been done to increase compatibility " comma? 
[09:20] <froud> that one is correct IMHO
[09:20] <uniq> ok.
[09:20] <mdke> the doc must be really good if we're worrying about commas
[09:20] <jeffsch> but in recent times would probably be better as Recently,
[09:20] <froud> email software, programming languages, tools, and of course, several games
[09:21] <froud> perhaps
[09:21] <froud> the and  .... and is very American thang
[09:21] <froud> don't like it personally
[09:22] <jeffsch> "programming languages and tools" means "programming languages and programming tools"
[09:22] <froud> Hmm yeah
[09:22] <froud> good point
[09:23] <jeffsch> it's where the serial comma comes in handy :)
[09:23] <froud> mail software, programming languages and tools, and of course, several games.
[09:23] <froud> better?
[09:24] <jeffsch> i still worry about the comma after course. I'll have to look up the rule
[09:24] <froud> uniq: which doc you now on?
[09:25] <uniq> http://lnix.net/~froud/about-kubuntu/C/index.html
[09:25] <uniq> just finished reading it.
[09:27] <uniq> http://lnix.net/~froud/kubuntu-install/C/ch01.html - second sentence -very- long. 
[09:28] <froud> agreed
[09:29] <uniq> and the last sentence is long too.
[09:30] <froud> Alternatively, if you do have an operating system installed, that you do not mind erasing and replacing with <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase>
[09:30] <froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>.</para>
[09:30] <froud> sorry
[09:31] <froud> This revision of the book assumes that you will be
[09:31] <froud> 			installing on a computer that does not have another operating system already installed. Alternatively, if you do have an operating system installed, that you do not mind erasing and replacing with <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase>
[09:31] <froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>.</para>
[09:31] <uniq> much better :)
[09:31] <froud> now where was the other sentence?
[09:32] <uniq> the last one in the same chapter.
[09:32] <froud> Furthermore, this revision does not cover all possible permutations
[09:32] <froud> 			of the installation process, but assumes the default options of the
[09:32] <froud> 			installation system.</para>
[09:32] <jeffsch> how about: This document is designed to help you install Kubuntu on a computer that does not already have an operating system. The installation procedure will erase existing operating systems.
[09:32] <froud> jeffsch: nice
[09:33] <uniq> maybe specify that by following the documents instructions.. 
[09:34] <uniq> The installation procedure won't neccessarily erase existing operating systems.
[09:34] <froud> the default will
This document is designed to help you install <phrase os="gnome"
[09:34] <froud> 				>Ubuntu</phrase>
[09:34] <froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase> on a computer that does not
[09:34] <froud> 			already have an operating system. The installation procedure will
[09:34] <froud> 			erase existing operating systems.</para>
[09:35] <froud> Perhaps the default installation will ...
[09:35] <froud> Or perhaps Following the default installation procedure described here will ...
[09:36] <uniq> " Following the installation procedure described here will"
[09:39] <uniq> http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=305&slide=9 - you get to choose anyway - it's not specified in the installation that erasing everything is the default way. 
[09:39] <froud> yes you do get to choose
[09:40] <froud> but if you were to select only the default selections of the install program, no changes, it would format the disk. Perhaps I need to rework this installation for greater flexability
[09:41] <jeffsch> it might not be documented, but erasing everything (at least in Hoary install) is the default
[09:42] <uniq> default as in if you just press enter.. yes.
[09:42] <uniq> but the installer doesn'
[09:42] <jeffsch> scary
[09:42] <froud> jeffsch: when I first wrote it I followed the defaults
[09:42] <uniq> t tell you that erasing everything is the default.
[09:42] <froud> jeffsch: I think I need to reiew this cours eof action
[09:42] <froud> uniq: yes
[09:43] <froud> or perhaps changing the whole approach to the procedure
[09:43] <Burgundavia> the installer is likely to compeletely change for breezy
[09:43] <Burgundavia> so don't write too much right now
[09:43] <uniq> oh.. nice to know. :)
[09:43] <froud> Burgundavia: Graphical Right?
[09:43] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:43] <uniq> then i'll just skip that chapter :)
[09:43] <froud> yeah
[09:43] <Burgundavia> unified live and install cds
[09:43] <froud> uniq: :-)
[09:44] <froud> Huhuh?
[09:44] <froud> that is news
[09:44] <froud> cool idea
[09:44] <uniq> i kinda knew that.. though.. just not thinking.
[09:44] <froud> happens to me all the time, I call it a brain fart
[09:48] <froud> dudes I'm taking an early night today. uniq any other wishes, just post to me or the docteam list
[09:48] <jeffsch> gotta run. bbl
[09:48] <froud> cheers jeffsch 
[09:48] <jeffsch> cya
[09:50] <uniq> ok. i will take a break myself. move from sarge -> hoary on my server.
[09:51] <Burgundavia> I wonder how many machines that have migrated debian-->ubuntu
[09:51] <uniq> i've migrated 5 myself :)
[09:52] <Burgundavia> I moved RH 8 --> Warty
[09:52] <jjesse> i moved SUSE -> Warty 
[09:53] <jjesse> i hated how long it took to install SUSE
[09:53] <uniq> i belive in love at first sight.. it happend to me with apt-get :)
[10:06] <mdke> unified live and install cd?
[10:07] <mdke> hmm
[10:07] <mdke> will the opencd project stuff be on it?
[10:07] <Burgundavia> I assume so
[10:07] <Burgundavia> I have no idea
[10:08] <Burgundavia> I am just a hot-air producer
[10:08] <mdke> god knows how they will fit it all on
[10:25] <squinn> mdke, hey.
[10:32] <mdke> hi there squinn 
[10:32] <squinn> hi mdke.
[10:32] <squinn> I'll be back in a bit, mdke.
[10:33] <mdke> ok
[10:46] <mdke> robitaille, lovely work on IconsPage
[10:47] <robitaille> thanks.  the missing icons were annoying me :)
[10:48] <robitaille> now we just need to scan the other pages for these same icons that point to the old locations.  Shouldn't be too much work...I don't think we use so many icons in that wiki
[10:54] <mdke> robitaille, it will take bloomin ages ;)
[10:54] <mdke> robitaille, but if there are a few of us to share the icons, it will be ok
[10:58] <Burgundavia> ugh
[10:58] <Burgundavia> I hate our wiki
[10:58] <Burgundavia> it like using windows
[10:58] <Burgundavia> it is
[10:58] <mdke> don't make me kick you
[10:58] <robitaille> the few icons I searched for last nigh only came back with 1-2 hits each.  The most hits were from the WikiGardening page (probably obsolete), and some of the tests for possible replacement to the frontpage (are still pushging this?)
[10:58] <mdke> blasphemy
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it is!
[10:59] <robitaille> I'll be back a while....meeting at work
[10:59] <mdke> robitaille, you should try the common icons
[10:59] <mdke> later
[10:59] <mdke> Burgundavia, c'mon dude
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it gets the job done, but it is very painful to do anything in
[10:59] <mdke> works good here
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it works
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it is not elegant
[11:00] <Burgundavia> it is little polish items that bother me
[11:00] <Burgundavia> better tables support and categories and watchlists
[11:01] <mdke> Burgundavia, you're just spoilt!
[11:01] <mdke> put up with it man
[11:01] <Burgundavia> I am
[11:01] <Burgundavia> if you say I am spoilt, I am going to go back and use windows
[11:01] <mdke> lol
[11:01] <mdke> go ahead
[11:01] <mdke> you'll feel the pain
[11:02] <Burgundavia> tell me, why is there no category:documentation
[11:02] <Burgundavia> with sub categories like Windows Interop and Media and stuff?
[11:02] <Burgundavia> and no templates
[11:02] <mdke> Burgundavia, you have to make categories for them to exist
[11:02] <mdke> no one has made documentation yet
[11:03] <Burgundavia> can add the category to a page and create it from there?
[11:03] <Burgundavia> ie
[11:03] <Burgundavia> on wp, I can add [[Category:Airports of Blah] ]  and if it doesn't exist, it makes it a red link
[11:03] <Burgundavia> I can then click on the red link and make the category
[11:04] <Burgundavia> oh, and the difference between a page and non-page link to too small
[11:04] <mdke> Burgundavia, yeah same thing, write CategoryDocumentation in a page, then click on it and make the categorypage
[11:05] <Burgundavia> can I have subcategories?
[11:06] <mdke> describe the behaviour you want
[11:06] <Burgundavia> what do you think about dropping CamelCase on our wiki?
[11:06] <mdke> i like the easy linking of CamelCase
[11:07] <Burgundavia> I like [[link] ] 
[11:07] <mdke> but its not as well implemented on this wiki as the old one
[11:07] <Burgundavia> I find camelcase makes reading hard and is non-intutive
[11:07] <mdke> Burgundavia, in zwiki if you renamed a page, it renamed all the links to it, so CamelCase was necessary for that
[11:07] <mdke> WP doesn't do that, so [[link] ]  works
[11:07] <mdke> Moin doesn't do it either
[11:07] <Burgundavia> if you move a page in WP
[11:08] <Burgundavia> a redirect is created
[11:08] <mdke> correct
[11:08] <Burgundavia> which works fine
[11:08] <mdke> that's also the solution they are considering in Moin
[11:08] <mdke> but its not as clean as autoupdating links
[11:08] <Burgundavia> mediawiki has a "what links here" functionality
[11:09] <Burgundavia> the issue with that is the sometimes you can have a link like [[foo|bar] ] 
[11:09] <mdke> all wikis do
[11:09] <Burgundavia> where you see "blah blah bar blah" but the link is to foo
[11:10] <Burgundavia> the other issue with camelcase is the making of links you don't want to have as links
[11:11] <mdke> yes
[11:11] <mdke> but that has the advantage that you can easily create such pages
[11:11] <Burgundavia> look at that --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
[11:11] <Burgundavia> and try to imagine it as camelcase
[11:11] <Burgundavia> it would be an unreadable mess
[11:11] <mdke> yes
[11:11] <mdke> you don't HAVE to have CamelCase in our wiki
[11:12] <mdke> why don't you just make links without?
[11:12] <mdke> ["link"] 
[11:12] <Burgundavia> if we have half and half, we get into the mess that we had earlier
[11:12] <mdke> hmm
[11:12] <Burgundavia> with rst and moin and blah being supported
[11:12] <Burgundavia> actually, WP still supports CamelCase
[11:12] <mdke> well thats a bad comparison
[11:13] <mdke> but i see your point to a certain extent
[11:13] <Burgundavia> our language is designed to have Capital letters At the End of sentEnces
[11:13] <Burgundavia> s/end/Beginning
[11:13] <mdke> lol
[11:14] <Burgundavia> See hOw muCH harDer thiS iS To Read?
[11:14] <mdke> harder, but its l3tt
[11:14] <Burgundavia> that is why CamelCase sucks
[11:14] <mdke> 33
[11:14] <Burgundavia> IT IS ALSO WHY THIS IS ALSO MUCH HARDER TO READ
[11:14] <Burgundavia> basically, our brain does not grok CamelCase easily
[11:15] <mdke> heh
[11:15] <Burgundavia> that being said, would you support a change away from CamelCase?
[11:15] <Burgundavia> all the pages would be moved
[11:15] <Burgundavia> links would be made explicit
[11:15] <Burgundavia> I would prefer [[] ] , to conform with mediawiki
[11:15] <mdke> I don't think its worth the hassle
[11:16] <Burgundavia> I do
[11:16] <mdke> in WP is it worth it because there are SO many links
[11:16] <mdke> making it hard to read otherwise
[11:16] <Burgundavia> documentation is very similar to encyclopedia articles
[11:16] <mdke> but i don't see the problem with ours, and it would be more work which wouldn't be justified IMO
[11:16] <Burgundavia> it is not hard to do
[11:16] <mdke> Burgundavia, yes but wikipedia articles LINK a lot
[11:16] <Burgundavia> so can ours
[11:17] <Burgundavia> there is no reason for ours not to
[11:17] <mdke> its not necessary
[11:17] <mdke> in the encyclopedia, linking is very cool
[11:17] <Burgundavia> our wiki is almost impossible to navigate currently
[11:17] <Burgundavia> unless you know the exact page you are going to
[11:17] <mdke> it needs work
[11:17] <mdke> and better linking and categories
[11:17] <Burgundavia> this is part of that work
[11:17] <mdke> but there is always the search
[11:18] <Burgundavia> right
[11:18] <Burgundavia> more links make it harder to read
[11:18] <Burgundavia> as per the CamelCase stuff I just told you about
[11:18] <Burgundavia> but we need more links
[11:18] <mdke> yes, but not necessarily all over paragraphs like in WP
[11:19] <mdke> anyway there is nothing to stop you starting dialogue about it on the ML
[11:19] <mdke> its an interesting question
[11:19] <Burgundavia> I think I will
[11:21] <mdke> actually sometimes I feel that there is too much linking on WP
[11:21] <mdke> that also makes things less easy to read
[11:21] <Burgundavia> I have a link for you
[11:21] <Burgundavia> just a sec
[11:21] <mdke> at risk of making you angry ;)
[11:22] <Burgundavia> I have a funny link for you
[11:23] <squinn> mdke, yesterdays patch will be the last one i send.
[11:23] <mdke> squinn, good
[11:24] <mdke> you have commit access?
[11:25] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DeKalb-Peachtree_Airport&diff=prev&oldid=12544766
[11:25] <squinn> mdke, working on getting it now
[11:25] <mdke> cool
[11:25] <squinn> a bit of a problem with pgp
[11:26] <mdke> squinn, we can help. So that is not why you said that the patch was your last?
[11:26] <mdke> Burgundavia, :)
[11:27] <mdke> oh that's your edit!
[11:27] <mdke> haha
[11:27] <Burgundavia> my edit is the removal
[11:27] <mdke> yeah
[11:30] <Burgundavia> well, I got my first vote for support
[11:31] <mdke> Burgundavia, what is that?
[11:32] <squinn> mdke, that is
[11:32] <squinn> i'm talking to guy-in-charge about pgp
[11:32] <squinn> its why he cant create pgp yet
[11:32] <squinn> er commit account*
[11:32] <mdke> squinn, you can still make patches!
[11:32] <mdke> squinn, we encourage you to work on the docs
[11:33] <squinn> i know
[11:33] <squinn> but my commit account should be ready within the hour
[11:34] <mdke> well then we look forward to seeing your work
[11:34] <squinn> yep yep
[11:34] <Burgundavia> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/NameSpaces
[11:34] <Burgundavia> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/Templates
[11:37] <Burgundavia> can I have subcategories?
[11:37] <Burgundavia> can CategoryWindowsDoc be a category of Documentation?
[11:47] <Burgundavia> too quiet
[11:47] <Burgundavia> more debate
[11:47] <Burgundavia> dogs vs cats
[11:48] <Burgundavia> rofl
[11:50] <mdke> wiki bugs?
[11:50] <mdke> i like cats
[11:50] <mdke> dogs smell and are hairy
[11:51] <Burgundavia> no, bug on anything
[11:53] <robitaille> I only have a few still open.  I really need to get my Breezy partition working again and then I'll be back in the thick of it.
[11:55] <Burgundavia> some of mine are truly bluesky
[11:56] <squinn> robitaille, how much did you partition for breezy?
[11:57] <robitaille> 10gb.  I have a 30gb at home...6 for Win98, 10 for Hoary and 10 for Breezy. (the rest are shared stuff between the various OSes)
[11:57] <squinn> ah oky
[11:58] <mdke> i might stick a breezy partition on
[11:58] <mdke> 5gig enough?
[12:00] <robitaille> 5 should work...mine with a very empty home directory is at 3.1gb
[12:00] <Burgundavia> I prefer the title Hot Air Producer, myself
[12:00] <mdke> Burgundavia, i was just being polite
[12:00] <robitaille> Maybe Ubuntu needs a "Contributor of the Month"  With a picture and all on a wiki/award page :)
[12:01] <Burgundavia> right