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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:pitti] : Calendar -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || Logs -- http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Tue 28 June 17:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Thu 30 June 14:00 UTC Documentation Team -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda || Tue 5 July 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel || UTC | ||
| pitti | @all: Today's TB meeting needs to start earlier, at 1700 UTC | 05:17 |
|---|---|---|
| jbailey | Err, that's awfully short notice for a change, isn't it? | 05:18 |
| === jbailey can't make that time. | ||
| jbailey | Oh good, agenda doesn't concern me really anyway. | 05:19 |
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| seb128 | hey dholbach :) | 06:55 |
| dholbach | hey :) | 06:55 |
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| \sh | huhu daniel :) | 06:56 |
| ogra | hoho dholbach | 06:56 |
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| ivoks | howdy | 06:56 |
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| ogra | dholbach, i added a mention of revu to the expanding universe goal, but didnt change the status | 06:57 |
| mdz | 2 minutes | 06:58 |
| ogra | dholbach, to make th eprogress visible | 06:58 |
| === pitti waves to everybody and gets a seat | ||
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| === ogra puts a pot coffee on the table | ||
| dholbach | ogra: excellent | 06:59 |
| mdz | good morning, everyone | 07:00 |
| mdz | waiting for sabdfl and Keybuk | 07:00 |
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| === ogra quickly uploads a fixed ffmpeg before the meeting | ||
| ogra | :) | 07:01 |
| \sh | ogra: u made it? ,-) | 07:01 |
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| Keybuk | (I'm almost entirely not present, but will respond if my name goes blue ;p) | 07:02 |
| ogra | \sh, with a lot of help from mvo (you should call him the AssemblerKing now) | 07:02 |
| \sh | ogra: good to know *eg* | 07:02 |
| mdz | ok, that's quorum at least :-) | 07:03 |
| dholbach | ogra: mvo rocks | 07:03 |
| ogra | yeh | 07:03 |
| mdz | we seem to have one MaintainerCandidate to process | 07:03 |
| ogra | +a | 07:03 |
| mdz | Ankur Kotwal? | 07:03 |
| ogra | DanielN ? | 07:03 |
| \sh | Unfrgiven: | 07:03 |
| ogra | huh ? | 07:03 |
| ogra | a | 07:03 |
| ogra | ah | 07:03 |
| \sh | Ankur is Unfrgiven | 07:03 |
| mdz | he's applying for MOTU | 07:04 |
| \sh | and DanielN_atw is not online | 07:04 |
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| ogra | yep... i always muddle Ankur and Ante :) | 07:04 |
| sabdfl | hi all | 07:04 |
| ivoks | i'm Ante :) | 07:04 |
| ogra | hey sabdfl | 07:04 |
| dholbach | hi mark | 07:04 |
| \sh | for Unfrgiven I can give a ++ for MOTU...he did a lot for cxx and stuff | 07:04 |
| ogra | ivoks, i know.... but ivoks is more familiar ;) | 07:04 |
| ogra | absolutely | 07:04 |
| ogra | \sh++ | 07:05 |
| sabdfl | mdz: you under way? | 07:05 |
| mdz | sabdfl: yes | 07:05 |
| mdz | sabdfl: currently Unfrgiven (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnkurKotwal) is being considered for MOTU maintainership | 07:05 |
| \sh | and for DanielN_atw , he made some progress in those 2 weeks after the last meeting and I think he would be a good candidate. Ogra, what do u think? | 07:05 |
| mdz | ogra and \sh both support his admission | 07:05 |
| dholbach | i worked with him on a package, but that's some weeks ago, he did it well | 07:06 |
| ivoks | ++ by me too | 07:06 |
| dholbach | i read his name a cuople of times on the c++ library list | 07:06 |
| ogra | sabdfl, we also met hi at udu, he made good progress with packaging since then | 07:06 |
| ogra | him even | 07:07 |
| dholbach | that's true, ogra | 07:07 |
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| sabdfl | ok, fine by me if ogra and \sh have worked with him and think he's up to it | 07:08 |
| ogra | absolutely :) | 07:08 |
| mdz | likewise | 07:08 |
| Keybuk | same for me | 07:08 |
| dholbach | excellent :) | 07:08 |
| ogra | yay :) | 07:08 |
| ivoks | great | 07:08 |
| \sh | heissa :) | 07:08 |
| dholbach | watch the MOTU team grow :) | 07:08 |
| sabdfl | welcome aboard Unfrgiven! | 07:09 |
| mdz | Unfrgiven: congratulations and welcome | 07:09 |
| \sh | he's going mad when he's hearing that :) | 07:09 |
| ogra | so welcome Unfrgiven (in sleeping absence ) | 07:09 |
| mdz | next up, Riddell on choosing an office suite for Kubuntu | 07:09 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: is there a wiki page that outlines the options and arguments? | 07:09 |
| Riddell | sabdfl: no there isn't | 07:09 |
| sabdfl | this sort of thing is best done in spec format, as a proposal | 07:09 |
| Riddell | trouble is I don't yet have an answer to propose :) | 07:10 |
| Riddell | koffice is faster and smaller and integrated | 07:10 |
| sabdfl | because whichever way it goes, in future people will want to know what was factored into the decision | 07:10 |
| mdz | the guiding principle should be to do whatever the KDE community will love | 07:10 |
| pitti | Riddell: what about stability? | 07:10 |
| sabdfl | mdz: agreed | 07:10 |
| \sh | Riddell: what about the compatiblity to ms office? | 07:10 |
| ogra | mdz, whyt about MS compatibility ? | 07:10 |
| Riddell | openoffice is probably less buggy and more compatible with MS Officce | 07:10 |
| pitti | Riddell: OO.o is a pain both stability- and performance-wise, is KOffice any better? | 07:10 |
| \sh | ogra: *g* | 07:10 |
| ogra | heh | 07:10 |
| sabdfl | in addition, since openoffice is in main, we should also make sure that k-oo.o love is around and available, even if it isn't the default | 07:10 |
| Riddell | pitti: it's a lot better performance wise, not so stability wise | 07:11 |
| mdz | ogra: see above; if MS compatibility is of great importance to the KDE community, they will factor that into their opinions | 07:11 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: k-oo.o love is utterly painful for amd64. | 07:11 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: we had a similar debate around abiword + gnumeric vs oo.o | 07:11 |
| \sh | mdz: i don't think it has to do with KDE alone...it's a matter of integration of * Linux into the office structure of companies | 07:11 |
| sabdfl | Mithrandir: is that true for the goo.o too.o? | 07:11 |
| Riddell | sabdfl: where can I find out about the discussions of that? | 07:11 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: less so, but yes. | 07:11 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: that is, more packages => more pain. | 07:12 |
| mdz | \sh: to a certain extent, such companies will make their own decisions about which software to use | 07:12 |
| ogra | mdz, true.... but still non KDE people will switch too :) | 07:12 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: poorly documented i'm afraid, we mostly had it on irc in the SSDS days | 07:12 |
| mdz | the default should be the "right thing" for a KDE-oriented distribution | 07:12 |
| \sh | mdz: and most of the companies using OOo as a choice | 07:12 |
| mdz | what do other KDE distributions do? | 07:12 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: I'm throwing in a data point, I'm not trying to veto (which I wouldn't be able to) k-oo.o. | 07:12 |
| \sh | they put both | 07:12 |
| Riddell | mdz: the only distribution to ship with koffice is mepislight | 07:12 |
| ivoks | oo.o seems more mature atm, but koffice is doing great improvment, imho | 07:12 |
| Riddell | ship as default that is | 07:12 |
| sabdfl | Mithrandir: your say counts for a lot around here, so don't be shy | 07:13 |
| Riddell | one agrument is that if nobody uses koffice then it will never improve | 07:13 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: the pain will be significantly less with ooo2 once we get it usable in a 64 bit form. | 07:13 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: similarly for Gnome office and KOffice, though | 07:13 |
| mdz | the 32-bit stuff for oo.o2-kde will be painful, yes,, but we'll need to do it regardless of which office suite is default in kubuntu | 07:13 |
| \sh | Riddell: what about shipping with koffice and OO? | 07:13 |
| Riddell | \sh: no space for that | 07:13 |
| sabdfl | and with java and sun, there's a feeling that it would be good to have strong ground-up-free office suits | 07:14 |
| mdz | how big is koffice? | 07:14 |
| ogra | \sh, no redundancys ! | 07:14 |
| Riddell | although we will probably ship with kexi (database) and krita (drawing) | 07:14 |
| Mithrandir | mdz: but we won't have to package half of kde in ia32-libs-kde if we don't use ooo for kubuntu. | 07:14 |
| sabdfl | mdz: is oo.o2 64-bit K difficult because of the C++ nature of K? | 07:14 |
| Riddell | mdz: source is 20MB | 07:14 |
| mdz | sabdfl: it's difficult because KDE has a huge dependency chain which would need to be repackaged a la ia32-libs | 07:15 |
| ivoks | 20? | 07:15 |
| === \sh likes the idea to ship koffice with a real kde distro ;) | ||
| mdz | Mithrandir: even if kubuntu uses koffice by default, we should have oo.o2-kde available on all supported architectures | 07:15 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: ooo2 64 bit is difficult because the programmers writing staroffice thought that having assembly in a office suite made sense. | 07:15 |
| Mithrandir | mdz: do I get an extra bottle of whisky a month to endure the pain? ;-) | 07:15 |
| \sh | Mithrandir: no whisky while you're working ;-) | 07:15 |
| Riddell | koffice .debs are 21MB | 07:16 |
| Mithrandir | \sh: you haven't done ia32-libs, I see. :-) | 07:16 |
| uniq | the (few) comments on koffice vs. oo.o on kubuntu-users@list are all more or less pro oo.o. | 07:16 |
| pitti | \sh: you need the alcohol to double the 32 bit | 07:16 |
| \sh | Mithrandir: nope...but other nasty stuff;) | 07:16 |
| mdz | Riddell: what is your gut feeling? | 07:16 |
| \sh | pitti: yeah...this I know perfectly ;) | 07:16 |
| Mithrandir | anyhow, ooo is k-able on amd64 just fine, it's just painful. | 07:16 |
| dholbach | stabitily and exchangebility maybe should be the keypoint, imho - since people judge a distribution by what they use and what (and probably what not) works for them --- i say that without being a fan of oo.o and its not-integrated-ness, and i agree with riddell on getting users for improving, new products | 07:17 |
| Riddell | mdz: I've been trying to use koffice as much as possible this last week since 1.4 release. for lugradio live kpresenter couldn't open it's own slides and I had to re-do my whole talk. that put me towards keeping openoffice | 07:17 |
| pitti | Riddell: is "not so stable" == "it crashes every half an hour"? or is it better? | 07:17 |
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| \sh | Riddell: do u think the userbase will increase for koffice, if kubuntu is shipping it as default? | 07:17 |
| pitti | Riddell: I'd judge stability over performance | 07:17 |
| Riddell | pitti: "it crashes every half an hour" isn't too far off I suspect | 07:18 |
| pitti | Riddell: then you will rather scare away people with it, I'm afraid | 07:18 |
| Riddell | \sh: yes I do | 07:19 |
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| \sh | Riddell: so, ship it...we have OO in anyway available | 07:20 |
| mdz | Riddell: so if you're leaning toward openoffice, and kubuntu-users seems to be leaning the same way, is there someone who can speak for koffice? | 07:20 |
| pitti | Riddell: ... not that OO.o wouldn't be scary on any but the latest and greatest number crunching hardware | 07:20 |
| Riddell | \sh seems to speak for koffice | 07:20 |
| Riddell | amu is a big koffice fan | 07:20 |
| ogra | \sh, whats the use of an ofiice suit that crashes every 1/2h, have fun with the bugreports you cant solve in a stable distro ? | 07:20 |
| Mithrandir | I was a fan of koffice five years ago, but it sounds like it might not have moved too much since then? | 07:21 |
| \sh | ogra: well, thinking of ms word which is crashing for me every single time I try to open a big document I don't have anything against a crashing presenter | 07:21 |
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| dholbach | it's the same for gnome: abiword and gnumeric, but without a presenting software, you can't hand gnome-office to the average user yet, that's disappointing, but that seems to be life atm :-/ | 07:22 |
| ivoks | we can't ship crashing app. | 07:22 |
| pitti | \sh: that isn't the thing we should compare software to | 07:22 |
| \sh | lets say it like this: if kubuntu is shipping as default with koffice, we can also try to stablelize it | 07:22 |
| sabdfl | Mithrandir: if we were to put a google-size bounty on proper oo.o2 64-bit support, is there anyone you can think of in the upstream crowd who could take it on? | 07:22 |
| ogra | \sh, we'll talk about it after you lost your first ubuntu slides 1/2h before the telk ;) | 07:22 |
| sabdfl | upstream being oo.o community | 07:22 |
| ogra | talk | 07:22 |
| pitti | dholbach: gnumeric is a great piece of software, it jsut works and is fast (as opposed to OO.o spread, which is buggy and slow as hell) | 07:22 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: I don't know upstream, so no, but I could look around. | 07:22 |
| \sh | pitti: we have OO in the repos...so the user is able to install OO in an way | 07:22 |
| pitti | dholbach: it's abiword that sucks, though | 07:22 |
| dholbach | pitti: anyway, gnome-office just isnt ready yet :-/ | 07:23 |
| pitti | \sh: right, but only one will be shipped on the CD | 07:23 |
| pitti | dholbach: agreed | 07:23 |
| ogra | pitti, its the missing presentation program that sucks imho | 07:23 |
| pitti | \sh: the point is, many users can't download big debs, they depend on a CD | 07:23 |
| uniq | \sh: koffice is smaller to download. | 07:23 |
| ivoks | then with koffice, you could put more apps on CD? | 07:24 |
| ivoks | that would be + for koffice | 07:24 |
| seb128 | pitti: what's wrong about abiword? | 07:24 |
| mdz | Riddell: I think the best thing to do is to collect points in favor of each suite and document them on a wiki page | 07:24 |
| mdz | Riddell: once that's done, the answer could well be obvious | 07:24 |
| \sh | well, from my point of view, I would like to see KDE applications on a kde distro and vice versa. | 07:24 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: Pavel Janik is doing some work on it already. pavel@janik.cz | 07:24 |
| pitti | seb128: it lacks too much important features, and the MS compatibility is much worse than OO.O's | 07:24 |
| Riddell | mdz: sounds like a plan | 07:25 |
| seb128 | pitti: bah, not the place to argue about that :) | 07:25 |
| sabdfl | Mithrandir: is he upstream? distro? good credentials? | 07:25 |
| pitti | seb128: however, I only use gnumeric, and I never ever use a WYSIWYG word processor, so don't count on my opinion about abiword too much | 07:25 |
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| seb128 | pitti: happy about gnumeric? :) | 07:25 |
| pitti | seb128: gnumeric rocks | 07:25 |
| seb128 | yeah ;) | 07:25 |
| sabdfl | ok, i think this needs to be specced | 07:25 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: could you put a spec together? | 07:25 |
| sabdfl | Oo.O2 vs KOffice - the default in Kubuntu | 07:26 |
| Riddell | sabdfl: I'm not sure what that would be. isn't a spec more "we will do this" rather than "which should we do"? | 07:26 |
| mdz | right, the comparison chart we discussed would form the meat of a spec | 07:26 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: it starts with "these are the options" | 07:26 |
| mdz | just add some background to it | 07:26 |
| pitti | Riddell: after that discussion, do you think KOffice is still an option to consider? | 07:26 |
| sabdfl | then when there's a decision, you put that at the top | 07:26 |
| sabdfl | so afterwards it reads: | 07:26 |
| sabdfl | "this spec documents our decision to run with OO.o2 for Kubuntu Breezy" | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | "rationale" | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | blah blah blah | 07:27 |
| pitti | Riddell: (I don't want to imply a "no" in any way) | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | </subliminal advertising> | 07:27 |
| mdz | Riddell: invite the kubuntu community to add their own thoughts to the list, within guidelines (keep it objective) | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | yes, the doc is open so people with an interest in either course of action can add pro's and con's | 07:27 |
| Keybuk | ( | 07:28 |
| mdz | if it's still unclear at that point, we'll discuss it again with this additional context | 07:28 |
| Keybuk | sorry, desktop crapped out and decided that it didn't want to be on there | 07:28 |
| sabdfl | then it's easier to bring it to the TB and take an up or down vote amongst the kubuntu leaders and tb | 07:28 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: I think he's upstream, yes. His blog has 271 entries on ooo and he's been doing amd64 porting for a bit of fair time. I don't know him personally so I can't comment on his saneness, but it seems to be ok. | 07:28 |
| sabdfl | cool | 07:28 |
| Riddell | pitti: I think it's an option, see jdub's speach on how gnome office can overtake openoffice. same for koffice | 07:28 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: there are definitely arguments in favour of lightweight native tools | 07:28 |
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| pitti | Riddell: ok, great. well, spec and argument collection sounds really sane then IMHO? | 07:28 |
| sabdfl | but we do have to make a decision on the default | 07:29 |
| sabdfl | even if both end up in main, as we did with gnome office | 07:29 |
| sabdfl | anything more on Kubuntu Office? | 07:29 |
| Riddell | I'll write the spec then | 07:30 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: he's a Novell employee, fwiw. | 07:30 |
| sabdfl | Mithrandir: could be interesting :-) | 07:31 |
| mdz | ok, next up, pitti on language packs | 07:31 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: well, I guess they're interested in a 64 bit OOo this year too.. | 07:31 |
| sabdfl | Riddell: you don't have to write it any further than needed to justify your own viewpoint, get someone else to argue the other side :-) | 07:31 |
| pitti | I wrote about the problem yesterday | 07:31 |
| pitti | so far I still think that the solution proposed in the udu spec (split up packs into -main/-gnome/-kde) is the way to go | 07:32 |
| pitti | however, I'd like to collect more opinions about that | 07:32 |
| pitti | the actual source of problem is that Kubuntu is not a proper derivative | 07:32 |
| seb128 | 3) from the mail seems to be best option imho | 07:32 |
| pitti | with its own archive and so on | 07:32 |
| sabdfl | " Besides language-support-lang, Kubuntu additionally installs kde-i18n-lang. " | 07:33 |
| sabdfl | pitti: how do you propose to do that? | 07:33 |
| pitti | sabdfl: that is to avoid splitting the -support packages, too | 07:33 |
| pitti | sabdfl: it's already done | 07:33 |
| sabdfl | if someone wants to add a new language to the system, how does the system know to install the -kde or the -gnome pack? | 07:33 |
| pitti | sabdfl: the Kubuntu installer just does it and our language selector application can do it, too | 07:33 |
| sabdfl | pitti: how does it know if the user has, for example, installed Kubuntu and added abiword? | 07:34 |
| ivoks | khm... | 07:34 |
| pitti | sabdfl: the crude solution would be that langpack-o-matic just checks whether gnome and/or kde is installed | 07:34 |
| sabdfl | pitti: see above - "gnome" and "kde" become fuzzy concepts over time | 07:34 |
| sabdfl | it's easy at install time | 07:34 |
| sabdfl | hard once the sysadmin starts adding and removing packages | 07:34 |
| pitti | sabdfl: the fine-grained one is to check which packages are installed, so that the relevant pack could be installed if needed | 07:34 |
| pitti | sabdfl: so if language selector sees "ah, abiword is installed", it would pull in the gnome one | 07:35 |
| === ivoks [~ivoks@lns01-0623.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| pitti | sabdfl: it's not an optimal solution, I'M aware of that | 07:35 |
| pitti | sabdfl: it also makes elmo cry because it will add 400 packages | 07:35 |
| pitti | sabdfl: but I don't know a better solution | 07:35 |
| Mithrandir | this sounds like a good use case for Enhances: support, btw. | 07:35 |
| pitti | if anybody does have a better solution, speak up :-) | 07:36 |
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| Mithrandir | pitti: implement support for Enhances in dpkg and apt. :-) | 07:36 |
| pitti | Mithrandir: how does that help to not split langpacks? | 07:36 |
| mdz | pitti: the root problem is what? a combined language pack is too large? | 07:36 |
| pitti | mdz: yes, we can't fit them all onto the CDs | 07:37 |
| mdz | we already can't fit them all onto the CD | 07:37 |
| mdz | how many would we lose? | 07:37 |
| pitti | mdz: KDE translations alone are bigger than main+gnome right now | 07:37 |
| mdz | so we would lose more than half? | 07:37 |
| Mithrandir | pitti: it helps the packaging system note that "oh, you have this installed, then you probably want this too". | 07:37 |
| pitti | mdz: we ship all on most CDs | 07:37 |
| pitti | Mithrandir: ugh, that would be pretty intrusive; I think mvo and I had a better solution for the langpack selector at least | 07:37 |
| mdz | pitti: we ship all on 2 out of 6 CDs ;-) | 07:38 |
| pitti | oh? | 07:38 |
| pitti | hm | 07:38 |
| pitti | yes, we would loose more than half of the translations | 07:38 |
| dholbach | "order your ubuntu cd-case today." | 07:38 |
| mdz | but one of those two is the i386 install CD, which accounts for a disproportionate number of uses | 07:38 |
| \sh | is a dvd not cheaper then? | 07:38 |
| Mithrandir | dholbach: s/case/backpack/. :-) | 07:38 |
| pitti | well, DVDs would solve the problem at instant :-) | 07:38 |
| mdz | \sh: DVDs are more expensive than CDs | 07:38 |
| mdz | and less portable | 07:39 |
| ivoks | is it possible to do CDs by area? east europe, midle east, etc? | 07:39 |
| sabdfl | \sh: we still have to focus on 650MB CD's, unfortunately | 07:39 |
| pitti | or make Kubuntu a proper derivative with its own archive | 07:39 |
| ogra | \sh, not everybody has a DVD reader | 07:39 |
| mdz | ivoks: it is possible to create them, but it is impractical to test them | 07:39 |
| mdz | ivoks: we already must test 8 images for each release candidate | 07:39 |
| pitti | mdz: if langpack-o-matic could create different langpacks for Kubuntu than for Ubuntu, that would rock, but with the current structure it can't | 07:39 |
| \sh | ogra: yes :) i forgot the *grmpf* ;) | 07:39 |
| mdz | er, 9 | 07:39 |
| ivoks | oh, then this would be too much | 07:39 |
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| ivoks | didn't think of that :) | 07:40 |
| mdz | pitti: what's the least intrusive way to split the langpacks? | 07:40 |
| pitti | one alternative would be to split it to l-p-ubuntu and l-p-kubuntu | 07:40 |
| pitti | and copy the common stuff into both | 07:40 |
| pitti | but that's ugly IMHO | 07:40 |
| sabdfl | pitti: i'm happy with your first proposal | 07:40 |
| mdz | unified language packs, while inefficient in terms of space, are awfully attractive due to their simplicity | 07:40 |
| sabdfl | it just means the language selector needs to be smart | 07:41 |
| pitti | mdz: right | 07:41 |
| pitti | sabdfl: so we don't support KDE translations in Rosetta? | 07:41 |
| sabdfl | mdz: you mean install all the gnome translations on a fresh kubuntu box? | 07:41 |
| mdz | sabdfl: I mean the approach we're already using | 07:41 |
| pitti | sabdfl: would be the easiest solution, but redundant and non-symmetrical | 07:41 |
| sabdfl | pitti: what's non-symmetrical about -base, -gnome and -kde? | 07:42 |
| pitti | mdz: what do you mean by "way to split"? | 07:42 |
| pitti | sabdfl: oh, I thought you meant (1) in my mail | 07:42 |
| mdz | pitti: I can't find your email; what was the subject? | 07:42 |
| pitti | sabdfl: (1) in mail was the status quo | 07:42 |
| mdz | ah, found it | 07:42 |
| sabdfl | no, LanguagePackRoadmap | 07:42 |
| pitti | "27.06.05 18:43 Martin Pitt Preparing tomorrow's language pack TB topic" | 07:42 |
| pitti | sabdfl: ah, ok, so that would be the split | 07:42 |
| sabdfl | it has its warts, but i can't see a better one | 07:43 |
| mdz | pitti: is there any significant advantage of (3) over (1) for breezy? | 07:43 |
| Riddell | mdz: it means kubuntu has translations on CD | 07:43 |
| mdz | Riddell: gnome translations, you mean? | 07:43 |
| pitti | mdz: Rosetta support mainly | 07:43 |
| pitti | mdz: and Kubuntu does not need to ship gnome translations and instead has room for kde ones | 07:44 |
| Riddell | mdz: 3 means we have translations, 1 means we don't have KDE translations | 07:44 |
| pitti | well, there is no golden solution anyway, we just have to choose the pain | 07:44 |
| mdz | pitti: why does (1) make rosetta support impossible? | 07:44 |
| Riddell | mdz: nowhere for rosetta to output to | 07:45 |
| pitti | mdz: not impossible, but we had to regenerate kde-i18n-foo, which consists of more than translations | 07:45 |
| mdz | oh, I see, it uses kde-i18n-foo rather than language-pack-kde | 07:45 |
| pitti | mdz: it would be possible, I guess, with some hacking | 07:45 |
| mdz | (3) seems the clear winner, to me | 07:45 |
| pitti | would it be possible to give Kubuntu it's own archive? | 07:46 |
| mdz | not for breezy | 07:46 |
| pitti | or would that make sense? | 07:46 |
| pitti | no, not for breezy, but in the long run | 07:46 |
| pitti | I think we could live with option (1) for breezy | 07:46 |
| pitti | if we have a solution in sight for breezy+n | 07:46 |
| mdz | we should take advantage of rosetta for kubuntu | 07:47 |
| === Riddell doesn't like (1) at all | ||
| pitti | understandable | 07:47 |
| pitti | mdz: I think the biggest con of (3) is the hoary->breezy upgrade | 07:48 |
| mdz | I don't see that as a major issue | 07:48 |
| mdz | when the language pack is upgraded, we'll drop an update-notifier hook to prompt the user to reconfirm their language settings | 07:49 |
| pitti | well, upgrade notes, just as for Hoary (when users lost all their translations as well) | 07:49 |
| pitti | that sounds good | 07:49 |
| mdz | any further unresolved issues regarding language packs? | 07:49 |
| pitti | Ineed to convince elmo to accept 400 new packages :-) | 07:50 |
| pitti | anybody has serious issues with (3)? | 07:50 |
| mdz | elmo: would you like to weigh in on this? | 07:50 |
| ogra | pitti, give them to doko, then elmo wont even recognize ;) | 07:50 |
| pitti | ok, thanks guys for your input | 07:51 |
| mdz | ok, you can follow up with elmo later if he takes issue with it | 07:51 |
| pitti | ok, I'll do | 07:51 |
| mdz | next up, REVU with no person associated with it | 07:51 |
| mdz | ogra? | 07:52 |
| sabdfl | hmm... sec | 07:52 |
| === \sh is the spokesman :) | ||
| pitti | it's always better to hear more than just the own opinion when trashing he archive :-) | 07:52 |
| \sh | and ogra :) and dholbach | 07:52 |
| sabdfl | linspire just did their German edition release | 07:52 |
| ogra | mdz, you could put MOTU aside :) | 07:52 |
| sabdfl | they wait till they have a certain coverage of translations, then release a dedicated iso | 07:52 |
| sabdfl | has the advantage that the installer can skip the language question | 07:52 |
| sabdfl | and just install the language it is dedicated to | 07:52 |
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| mdz | ogra: /me points to the "INCLUDE YOUR NAME" comment in the wiki | 07:52 |
| sabdfl | i wondered if there is any interest in us making similar releases? | 07:53 |
| === \sh is the faulty one :) | ||
| mdz | sabdfl: we've discussed it; the primary issue is testing | 07:53 |
| ogra | mdz, i didnt put it there ... \sh ! | 07:53 |
| ogra | :) | 07:53 |
| Mithrandir | sabdfl: but then, you get to keep half a gazillion ISOs on cdimage. | 07:53 |
| mdz | we need to at least sanity check every ISO release | 07:53 |
| sabdfl | mdz: i don't know how this would fit into the broader picture, i would not want to amp up the number of iso's on the main release | 07:53 |
| \sh | mdz: put the blame on me pls :) i need to put it asap on the agenda :) | 07:53 |
| mdz | if we do 10 localized ISOs, we need to test them all | 07:53 |
| sabdfl | i suspect these would best be distributed from the loco websites | 07:53 |
| mdz | 10 locales x 3 architectures = 30 more test cases | 07:53 |
| sabdfl | we would only do releases that the loco teams want, they test, when they're happy, we push the button | 07:53 |
| Mithrandir | mdz: have we considered doing some sort of automated testing similar to the lab joeyh has set up? | 07:54 |
| pitti | right now we still have the ability to ship 10 translations on a CD, which make them somewhat more universal | 07:54 |
| mdz | Mithrandir: where "considered" -> "gee, that would be nice" | 07:54 |
| ogra | sabdfl, you mean additional localized ones ? or our default release ? | 07:54 |
| ivoks | sabdfl: maybe is possible to have more locos in same image, this way more loco teams would work on testing | 07:54 |
| pitti | sabdfl: that would make much sense with translations we don't put on CDs though, even if the images are sort of unofficial | 07:54 |
| sabdfl | ivoks: that's a cool idea | 07:54 |
| Mithrandir | mdz: not "gee, that would be nice, let us commit some resources to it"? | 07:55 |
| sabdfl | if we could automate the process of generating the install iso, we could make this work | 07:55 |
| mdz | sabdfl: I expect we would need the launchpad infrastructure in order to manage production of localized ISOs | 07:55 |
| sabdfl | mdz: absolutely | 07:55 |
| mdz | maintaining that many sets of seeds is impractical in our current setup | 07:55 |
| sabdfl | i'll bounce the idea off kinnison in brazil | 07:55 |
| mdz | ok, can we close the language pack discussion? | 07:56 |
| sabdfl | ok | 07:56 |
| sabdfl | thanks | 07:56 |
| pitti | from my side yes | 07:56 |
| pitti | thanks | 07:56 |
| ogra | revu ! | 07:57 |
| mdz | right, next is \sh on REVU | 07:57 |
| ivoks | :> | 07:57 |
| \sh | yes | 07:57 |
| \sh | I don't know if anybody is informed about our new toy :) | 07:57 |
| ogra | \sh, give us an introduction :) | 07:57 |
| mdz | \sh: perhaps a one-line explanation of what REVU does, for the benefit of those listening at home :-) | 07:57 |
| sabdfl | url again? | 07:57 |
| ogra | http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/ | 07:57 |
| ivoks | http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/ | 07:57 |
| \sh | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU?highlight=%28REVU%29 | 07:57 |
| \sh | to have a view inside, please refere to http://revu.ubuntu.linux-server.org/ | 07:58 |
| \sh | I created an account for you all, that u can have a look inside | 07:58 |
| \sh | username: sh@linux-server.org and pw: sabdfl ;) | 07:58 |
| ogra | sabdfl, its a tool for test autobuilding packages, collecting comments and seeing all data about a package that should get reviewed | 07:58 |
| \sh | (will be deleted in anyway after this meeting :)) | 07:58 |
| \sh | some adds to ogra: | 07:59 |
| dholbach | and collecting advocates (3 for MOTU NEW packages) | 07:59 |
| ogra | yeah | 07:59 |
| \sh | right now we're reviewing newpackages for MOTU via wiki..which is not bad, but it's sometimes confusing | 07:59 |
| ogra | so it perfectly mirrors our review process | 07:59 |
| ogra | and its written in python :) | 07:59 |
| \sh | so siretart had an idea of doing it via a webinterface, with database and build automation | 08:00 |
| \sh | siretart and a friend of him wrote this nice little peace of software, and now we're trying to establish it to the motu world :) | 08:00 |
| sabdfl | ROCKS! | 08:01 |
| \sh | right now, uploading packages (debuild -S -sa) and putting comments etc. is working. the test build is included the next days | 08:01 |
| dholbach | automatic linda and lintian are additional features | 08:01 |
| ogra | but we feel it would belong into the DC, but we need a sbuild capable environment, so a vserver might not work | 08:01 |
| \sh | we have only limited resources on our servers, siretart has only a vserver without the possibility to create a sbuild env. and I have only my server with more then one service running on it | 08:01 |
| ogra | (strike one but :) ) | 08:01 |
| \sh | dholbach: it's included already ;) | 08:02 |
| \sh | we can inject all automatic tests we need through hooks | 08:02 |
| dholbach | \sh: i didn't say they were missing :) | 08:02 |
| \sh | ok, now we're looking for a permanent home :) | 08:03 |
| mdz | \sh: are you interested in working on AutomatedTesting as well? ;-) | 08:03 |
| mdz | right, the matter at hand | 08:03 |
| sabdfl | are the linode servers not capable of sbuild? | 08:03 |
| \sh | mdz: let me do my other todos first :) | 08:03 |
| Kamion | surely you can chroot from a vserver ... | 08:04 |
| === \sh needs a cloning facility ;) | ||
| mdz | assuming you get root in the vserver | 08:04 |
| ogra | mdz, \sh first needs to write a KDE version of gnome-power ) | 08:04 |
| \sh | Kamion: sbuild also? would u provide us with a solution? what we found out, that we need admin capabilities | 08:04 |
| \sh | and then update-manager and SER and my normal work, and then life | 08:05 |
| sabdfl | mdz: i think linode gives you root | 08:05 |
| sabdfl | it's either Xen or UML based | 08:05 |
| ogra | \sh, forget about your normal work, who nees TV anyway :) | 08:05 |
| Kamion | \sh: if you don't have root, then indeed that would be a problem; if you do, then it's relatively straightforward assuming sufficient disk space | 08:05 |
| mdz | sbuild just requires root | 08:05 |
| \sh | ogra: u pay my rent? ,-) | 08:06 |
| ogra | heh, depends *g* | 08:06 |
| \sh | and my wife ;-) | 08:06 |
| \sh | ex at least ;) | 08:06 |
| ogra | NO ! | 08:06 |
| \sh | more expensive ;) | 08:06 |
| ogra | yep | 08:06 |
| dholbach | guys... :) | 08:06 |
| ogra | ok, offtopic here | 08:06 |
| mdz | \sh: so is the root issue that you need help setting up sbuild? | 08:07 |
| ogra | mdz, nope, we'd like a machine in the DC | 08:07 |
| sabdfl | ogra: why? | 08:07 |
| \sh | mdz: it's that and resources...I can handle only a bit more...but then my server will break | 08:07 |
| ogra | sbuild in the test env is already running | 08:08 |
| sabdfl | how about a linode? | 08:08 |
| ogra | sabdfl, can we ge sbuild running there ? | 08:08 |
| ogra | get even | 08:08 |
| sabdfl | ogra: yes, i believe so, it's a root environment | 08:08 |
| sabdfl | UML i think | 08:08 |
| ogra | ah, great, then this would suffice | 08:08 |
| elmo | uh | 08:09 |
| ogra | elmo, objections ? | 08:09 |
| sabdfl | elmo: we need to get a purchase order for a bunch of linode's in | 08:10 |
| elmo | this is a buildd that only accepts uploads signed by universe maintainers right? | 08:10 |
| ogra | elmo, yes | 08:10 |
| sabdfl | then we need a very lightweight process to get those fired up | 08:10 |
| \sh | elmo: yes | 08:10 |
| dholbach | elmo: and MOTU hopefuls | 08:10 |
| ogra | elmo, with additional acess control before | 08:10 |
| elmo | if so - I'm 95% completed work on something that makes it a moot point | 08:10 |
| elmo | oh, ok, not for MOTU hopefuls | 08:10 |
| mdz | this is essentially entirely untrusted stuff | 08:10 |
| mdz | it's probably not even signed at the moment | 08:11 |
| elmo | ok, nm then | 08:11 |
| sabdfl | elmo: we will need the "build a package for anybody" stuff in due course, but i think linode is the answer for this one | 08:11 |
| mdz | and certainly not by a key we can authenticate | 08:11 |
| \sh | there is no package coming from this system | 08:11 |
| elmo | sabdfl: want me to sort that out? | 08:11 |
| sabdfl | elmo: yes please | 08:11 |
| \sh | all packages are reviewed only and uploaded by MOTUs with upload right to universe | 08:11 |
| mdz | sabdfl: as long as it doesn't steal cycles from backports ;-) | 08:12 |
| dholbach | \sh: NO, they are uploaded by MOTU hopefuls as well | 08:12 |
| ogra | dholbach, he means in the end | 08:12 |
| dholbach | ogra: well uploads to the archive were already handled before :) | 08:12 |
| ogra | dholbach, yeps | 08:13 |
| ogra | :) | 08:13 |
| mdz | ok, so the resolution is to set up a linode system to run these builds | 08:14 |
| mdz | any further unresolved issues? | 08:14 |
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| sabdfl | \sh: we will pay for the linode system, she's yours to play with | 08:14 |
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| mdz | \sh: will this meet your needs? | 08:14 |
| \sh | sabdfl: we are honoured :) and I have to say thx for siretart in absence as well :) | 08:14 |
| sabdfl | elmo: let's talk about a streamlined linode-for-community deal tomorrow? | 08:15 |
| \sh | mdz: of course | 08:15 |
| elmo | sabdfl: sure | 08:15 |
| sabdfl | elmo: are you in london tomorrow? | 08:15 |
| elmo | sabdfl: all week | 08:15 |
| sabdfl | cool | 08:15 |
| mdz | I am in london in ~48 hours | 08:15 |
| sabdfl | next up? | 08:15 |
| sabdfl | mdz: rock :-) | 08:15 |
| ogra | sabdfl, done :) | 08:15 |
| mdz | that's the end of the agenda | 08:15 |
| mdz | any other business? | 08:15 |
| sabdfl | \sh: REVU looks very cool, well done | 08:16 |
| \sh | sabdfl: I will report it to siretart, I think he will be very proud to hear that :) | 08:16 |
| ogra | sabdfl, its siretarts baby, \sh has set up the backend | 08:16 |
| mdz | ok, looks like it's safe to adjourn | 08:17 |
| mdz | thanks, everyone | 08:17 |
| \sh | thx mdz | 08:17 |
| ogra | thanks mdz | 08:17 |
| pitti | thanks folks | 08:17 |
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| dholbach | thanks mdz | 08:18 |
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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || Logs -- http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 30 June 14:00 UTC Documentation Team -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda || Tue 5 July 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 12 July 22:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel | ||
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