=== SloMo_ [~slomo@p5487F333.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010497935pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JanC [~janc@JanC.member.lugwv] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ozamosi [~ozamosi@80.252.185.147] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === coastGNU [~templin@dyndsl-085-016-000-150.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko_ [~doko___@dsl-084-059-078-087.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko__ [~doko___@dsl-084-059-079-071.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [~Simira@79.80-202-211.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra_ [~ogra@p5089D950.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jbailey [~jbailey@CPE00501836c657-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tseng [~tseng@mail.thegrebs.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JanC [~janc@JanC.member.lugwv] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === JaneW [~JaneW@196.36.161.235] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === chmj [~chmj@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === chmj [~chmj@196.36.161.235] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [~mdz@ca-studio-bsr1o-251.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [~pitti@195.227.105.180] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === azeem [~mbanck@proxy-out.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:pitti] : Calendar -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || Logs -- http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Tue 28 June 17:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || Thu 30 June 14:00 UTC Documentation Team -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda || Tue 5 July 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel || UTC [05:17] @all: Today's TB meeting needs to start earlier, at 1700 UTC [05:18] Err, that's awfully short notice for a change, isn't it? === jbailey can't make that time. [05:19] Oh good, agenda doesn't concern me really anyway. === l337 [~s2@host156-40.pool8256.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [~Simira@79.80-202-211.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SloMo [~slomo@p5487F4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SloMo_ [~slomo@p5487D4FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === wasabi_ [~wasabi@207.55.180.100] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ealden [~ealden@219.90.92.171] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === katzor [~udssr@p54BA2011.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rtcm [~jman@217.129.142.72] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === \sh [~shermann@server3.servereyes.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === siretart [~siretart@tauware.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === kronoss [~kronoss@FW-7-250.go.retevision.es] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === elmo [~james@83-216-141-215.jamest298.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdke [~matt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-52-214.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [foobar@td9091a5f.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:55] hey dholbach :) [06:55] hey :) === ups [~ups@203.200.160.54] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:56] <\sh> huhu daniel :) [06:56] hoho dholbach === ivoks [~ivoks@lns01-0623.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:56] howdy === mdke_ [~matt@81-178-117-17.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Kamion [~cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:57] dholbach, i added a mention of revu to the expanding universe goal, but didnt change the status [06:58] 2 minutes [06:58] dholbach, to make th eprogress visible === pitti waves to everybody and gets a seat === mdke [~matt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Client] === ogra puts a pot coffee on the table [06:59] ogra: excellent [07:00] good morning, everyone [07:00] waiting for sabdfl and Keybuk === ^rob^ [~rcaskey@cai17.music.uga.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra quickly uploads a fixed ffmpeg before the meeting [07:01] :) [07:01] <\sh> ogra: u made it? ,-) === Keybuk [~scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:02] (I'm almost entirely not present, but will respond if my name goes blue ;p) [07:02] \sh, with a lot of help from mvo (you should call him the AssemblerKing now) [07:02] <\sh> ogra: good to know *eg* [07:03] ok, that's quorum at least :-) [07:03] ogra: mvo rocks [07:03] yeh [07:03] we seem to have one MaintainerCandidate to process [07:03] +a [07:03] Ankur Kotwal? [07:03] DanielN ? [07:03] <\sh> Unfrgiven: [07:03] huh ? [07:03] a [07:03] ah [07:03] <\sh> Ankur is Unfrgiven [07:04] he's applying for MOTU [07:04] <\sh> and DanielN_atw is not online === sabdfl [~mark@217.205.109.249] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:04] yep... i always muddle Ankur and Ante :) [07:04] hi all [07:04] i'm Ante :) [07:04] hey sabdfl [07:04] hi mark [07:04] <\sh> for Unfrgiven I can give a ++ for MOTU...he did a lot for cxx and stuff [07:04] ivoks, i know.... but ivoks is more familiar ;) [07:04] absolutely [07:05] \sh++ [07:05] mdz: you under way? [07:05] sabdfl: yes [07:05] sabdfl: currently Unfrgiven (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnkurKotwal) is being considered for MOTU maintainership [07:05] <\sh> and for DanielN_atw , he made some progress in those 2 weeks after the last meeting and I think he would be a good candidate. Ogra, what do u think? [07:05] ogra and \sh both support his admission [07:06] i worked with him on a package, but that's some weeks ago, he did it well [07:06] ++ by me too [07:06] i read his name a cuople of times on the c++ library list [07:06] sabdfl, we also met hi at udu, he made good progress with packaging since then [07:07] him even [07:07] that's true, ogra === Kamion [~cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:08] ok, fine by me if ogra and \sh have worked with him and think he's up to it [07:08] absolutely :) [07:08] likewise [07:08] same for me [07:08] excellent :) [07:08] yay :) [07:08] great [07:08] <\sh> heissa :) [07:08] watch the MOTU team grow :) [07:09] welcome aboard Unfrgiven! [07:09] Unfrgiven: congratulations and welcome [07:09] <\sh> he's going mad when he's hearing that :) [07:09] so welcome Unfrgiven (in sleeping absence ) [07:09] next up, Riddell on choosing an office suite for Kubuntu [07:09] Riddell: is there a wiki page that outlines the options and arguments? [07:09] sabdfl: no there isn't [07:09] this sort of thing is best done in spec format, as a proposal [07:10] trouble is I don't yet have an answer to propose :) [07:10] koffice is faster and smaller and integrated [07:10] because whichever way it goes, in future people will want to know what was factored into the decision [07:10] the guiding principle should be to do whatever the KDE community will love [07:10] Riddell: what about stability? [07:10] mdz: agreed [07:10] <\sh> Riddell: what about the compatiblity to ms office? [07:10] mdz, whyt about MS compatibility ? [07:10] openoffice is probably less buggy and more compatible with MS Officce [07:10] Riddell: OO.o is a pain both stability- and performance-wise, is KOffice any better? [07:10] <\sh> ogra: *g* [07:10] heh [07:10] in addition, since openoffice is in main, we should also make sure that k-oo.o love is around and available, even if it isn't the default [07:11] pitti: it's a lot better performance wise, not so stability wise [07:11] ogra: see above; if MS compatibility is of great importance to the KDE community, they will factor that into their opinions [07:11] sabdfl: k-oo.o love is utterly painful for amd64. [07:11] Riddell: we had a similar debate around abiword + gnumeric vs oo.o [07:11] <\sh> mdz: i don't think it has to do with KDE alone...it's a matter of integration of * Linux into the office structure of companies [07:11] Mithrandir: is that true for the goo.o too.o? [07:11] sabdfl: where can I find out about the discussions of that? [07:11] sabdfl: less so, but yes. [07:12] sabdfl: that is, more packages => more pain. [07:12] \sh: to a certain extent, such companies will make their own decisions about which software to use [07:12] mdz, true.... but still non KDE people will switch too :) [07:12] Riddell: poorly documented i'm afraid, we mostly had it on irc in the SSDS days [07:12] the default should be the "right thing" for a KDE-oriented distribution [07:12] <\sh> mdz: and most of the companies using OOo as a choice [07:12] what do other KDE distributions do? [07:12] sabdfl: I'm throwing in a data point, I'm not trying to veto (which I wouldn't be able to) k-oo.o. [07:12] <\sh> they put both [07:12] mdz: the only distribution to ship with koffice is mepislight [07:12] oo.o seems more mature atm, but koffice is doing great improvment, imho [07:12] ship as default that is [07:13] Mithrandir: your say counts for a lot around here, so don't be shy [07:13] one agrument is that if nobody uses koffice then it will never improve [07:13] sabdfl: the pain will be significantly less with ooo2 once we get it usable in a 64 bit form. [07:13] Riddell: similarly for Gnome office and KOffice, though [07:13] the 32-bit stuff for oo.o2-kde will be painful, yes,, but we'll need to do it regardless of which office suite is default in kubuntu [07:13] <\sh> Riddell: what about shipping with koffice and OO? [07:13] \sh: no space for that [07:14] and with java and sun, there's a feeling that it would be good to have strong ground-up-free office suits [07:14] how big is koffice? [07:14] \sh, no redundancys ! [07:14] although we will probably ship with kexi (database) and krita (drawing) [07:14] mdz: but we won't have to package half of kde in ia32-libs-kde if we don't use ooo for kubuntu. [07:14] mdz: is oo.o2 64-bit K difficult because of the C++ nature of K? [07:14] mdz: source is 20MB [07:15] sabdfl: it's difficult because KDE has a huge dependency chain which would need to be repackaged a la ia32-libs [07:15] 20? === \sh likes the idea to ship koffice with a real kde distro ;) [07:15] Mithrandir: even if kubuntu uses koffice by default, we should have oo.o2-kde available on all supported architectures [07:15] sabdfl: ooo2 64 bit is difficult because the programmers writing staroffice thought that having assembly in a office suite made sense. [07:15] mdz: do I get an extra bottle of whisky a month to endure the pain? ;-) [07:15] <\sh> Mithrandir: no whisky while you're working ;-) [07:16] koffice .debs are 21MB [07:16] \sh: you haven't done ia32-libs, I see. :-) [07:16] the (few) comments on koffice vs. oo.o on kubuntu-users@list are all more or less pro oo.o. [07:16] \sh: you need the alcohol to double the 32 bit [07:16] <\sh> Mithrandir: nope...but other nasty stuff;) [07:16] Riddell: what is your gut feeling? [07:16] <\sh> pitti: yeah...this I know perfectly ;) [07:16] anyhow, ooo is k-able on amd64 just fine, it's just painful. [07:17] stabitily and exchangebility maybe should be the keypoint, imho - since people judge a distribution by what they use and what (and probably what not) works for them --- i say that without being a fan of oo.o and its not-integrated-ness, and i agree with riddell on getting users for improving, new products [07:17] mdz: I've been trying to use koffice as much as possible this last week since 1.4 release. for lugradio live kpresenter couldn't open it's own slides and I had to re-do my whole talk. that put me towards keeping openoffice [07:17] Riddell: is "not so stable" == "it crashes every half an hour"? or is it better? === Kamion_ [~cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:17] <\sh> Riddell: do u think the userbase will increase for koffice, if kubuntu is shipping it as default? [07:17] Riddell: I'd judge stability over performance [07:18] pitti: "it crashes every half an hour" isn't too far off I suspect [07:18] Riddell: then you will rather scare away people with it, I'm afraid [07:19] \sh: yes I do === NoSense [~kronoss@FW-7-250.go.retevision.es] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:20] <\sh> Riddell: so, ship it...we have OO in anyway available [07:20] Riddell: so if you're leaning toward openoffice, and kubuntu-users seems to be leaning the same way, is there someone who can speak for koffice? [07:20] Riddell: ... not that OO.o wouldn't be scary on any but the latest and greatest number crunching hardware [07:20] \sh seems to speak for koffice [07:20] amu is a big koffice fan [07:20] \sh, whats the use of an ofiice suit that crashes every 1/2h, have fun with the bugreports you cant solve in a stable distro ? [07:21] I was a fan of koffice five years ago, but it sounds like it might not have moved too much since then? [07:21] <\sh> ogra: well, thinking of ms word which is crashing for me every single time I try to open a big document I don't have anything against a crashing presenter === rcliii [~rcliii@cpe-65-26-158-102.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:22] it's the same for gnome: abiword and gnumeric, but without a presenting software, you can't hand gnome-office to the average user yet, that's disappointing, but that seems to be life atm :-/ [07:22] we can't ship crashing app. [07:22] \sh: that isn't the thing we should compare software to [07:22] <\sh> lets say it like this: if kubuntu is shipping as default with koffice, we can also try to stablelize it [07:22] Mithrandir: if we were to put a google-size bounty on proper oo.o2 64-bit support, is there anyone you can think of in the upstream crowd who could take it on? [07:22] \sh, we'll talk about it after you lost your first ubuntu slides 1/2h before the telk ;) [07:22] upstream being oo.o community [07:22] talk [07:22] dholbach: gnumeric is a great piece of software, it jsut works and is fast (as opposed to OO.o spread, which is buggy and slow as hell) [07:22] sabdfl: I don't know upstream, so no, but I could look around. [07:22] <\sh> pitti: we have OO in the repos...so the user is able to install OO in an way [07:22] dholbach: it's abiword that sucks, though [07:23] pitti: anyway, gnome-office just isnt ready yet :-/ [07:23] \sh: right, but only one will be shipped on the CD [07:23] dholbach: agreed [07:23] pitti, its the missing presentation program that sucks imho [07:23] \sh: the point is, many users can't download big debs, they depend on a CD [07:23] \sh: koffice is smaller to download. [07:24] then with koffice, you could put more apps on CD? [07:24] that would be + for koffice [07:24] pitti: what's wrong about abiword? [07:24] Riddell: I think the best thing to do is to collect points in favor of each suite and document them on a wiki page [07:24] Riddell: once that's done, the answer could well be obvious [07:24] <\sh> well, from my point of view, I would like to see KDE applications on a kde distro and vice versa. [07:24] sabdfl: Pavel Janik is doing some work on it already. pavel@janik.cz [07:24] seb128: it lacks too much important features, and the MS compatibility is much worse than OO.O's [07:25] mdz: sounds like a plan [07:25] pitti: bah, not the place to argue about that :) [07:25] Mithrandir: is he upstream? distro? good credentials? [07:25] seb128: however, I only use gnumeric, and I never ever use a WYSIWYG word processor, so don't count on my opinion about abiword too much === Keybuk [~scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:25] pitti: happy about gnumeric? :) [07:25] seb128: gnumeric rocks [07:25] yeah ;) [07:25] ok, i think this needs to be specced [07:25] Riddell: could you put a spec together? [07:26] Oo.O2 vs KOffice - the default in Kubuntu [07:26] sabdfl: I'm not sure what that would be. isn't a spec more "we will do this" rather than "which should we do"? [07:26] right, the comparison chart we discussed would form the meat of a spec [07:26] Riddell: it starts with "these are the options" [07:26] just add some background to it [07:26] Riddell: after that discussion, do you think KOffice is still an option to consider? [07:26] then when there's a decision, you put that at the top [07:26] so afterwards it reads: [07:27] "this spec documents our decision to run with OO.o2 for Kubuntu Breezy" [07:27] "rationale" [07:27] blah blah blah [07:27] Riddell: (I don't want to imply a "no" in any way) [07:27] [07:27] Riddell: invite the kubuntu community to add their own thoughts to the list, within guidelines (keep it objective) [07:27] yes, the doc is open so people with an interest in either course of action can add pro's and con's [07:28] ( [07:28] if it's still unclear at that point, we'll discuss it again with this additional context [07:28] sorry, desktop crapped out and decided that it didn't want to be on there [07:28] then it's easier to bring it to the TB and take an up or down vote amongst the kubuntu leaders and tb [07:28] sabdfl: I think he's upstream, yes. His blog has 271 entries on ooo and he's been doing amd64 porting for a bit of fair time. I don't know him personally so I can't comment on his saneness, but it seems to be ok. [07:28] cool [07:28] pitti: I think it's an option, see jdub's speach on how gnome office can overtake openoffice. same for koffice [07:28] Riddell: there are definitely arguments in favour of lightweight native tools === kronoss [~kronoss@FW-7-250.go.retevision.es] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:28] Riddell: ok, great. well, spec and argument collection sounds really sane then IMHO? [07:29] but we do have to make a decision on the default [07:29] even if both end up in main, as we did with gnome office [07:29] anything more on Kubuntu Office? [07:30] I'll write the spec then [07:30] sabdfl: he's a Novell employee, fwiw. [07:31] Mithrandir: could be interesting :-) [07:31] ok, next up, pitti on language packs [07:31] sabdfl: well, I guess they're interested in a 64 bit OOo this year too.. [07:31] Riddell: you don't have to write it any further than needed to justify your own viewpoint, get someone else to argue the other side :-) [07:31] I wrote about the problem yesterday [07:32] so far I still think that the solution proposed in the udu spec (split up packs into -main/-gnome/-kde) is the way to go [07:32] however, I'd like to collect more opinions about that [07:32] the actual source of problem is that Kubuntu is not a proper derivative [07:32] 3) from the mail seems to be best option imho [07:32] with its own archive and so on [07:33] " Besides language-support-lang, Kubuntu additionally installs kde-i18n-lang. " [07:33] pitti: how do you propose to do that? [07:33] sabdfl: that is to avoid splitting the -support packages, too [07:33] sabdfl: it's already done [07:33] if someone wants to add a new language to the system, how does the system know to install the -kde or the -gnome pack? [07:33] sabdfl: the Kubuntu installer just does it and our language selector application can do it, too [07:34] pitti: how does it know if the user has, for example, installed Kubuntu and added abiword? [07:34] khm... [07:34] sabdfl: the crude solution would be that langpack-o-matic just checks whether gnome and/or kde is installed [07:34] pitti: see above - "gnome" and "kde" become fuzzy concepts over time [07:34] it's easy at install time [07:34] hard once the sysadmin starts adding and removing packages [07:34] sabdfl: the fine-grained one is to check which packages are installed, so that the relevant pack could be installed if needed [07:35] sabdfl: so if language selector sees "ah, abiword is installed", it would pull in the gnome one === ivoks [~ivoks@lns01-0623.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:35] sabdfl: it's not an optimal solution, I'M aware of that [07:35] sabdfl: it also makes elmo cry because it will add 400 packages [07:35] sabdfl: but I don't know a better solution [07:35] this sounds like a good use case for Enhances: support, btw. [07:36] if anybody does have a better solution, speak up :-) === chmj [~chmj@196.11.241.45] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:36] pitti: implement support for Enhances in dpkg and apt. :-) [07:36] Mithrandir: how does that help to not split langpacks? [07:36] pitti: the root problem is what? a combined language pack is too large? [07:37] mdz: yes, we can't fit them all onto the CDs [07:37] we already can't fit them all onto the CD [07:37] how many would we lose? [07:37] mdz: KDE translations alone are bigger than main+gnome right now [07:37] so we would lose more than half? [07:37] pitti: it helps the packaging system note that "oh, you have this installed, then you probably want this too". [07:37] mdz: we ship all on most CDs [07:37] Mithrandir: ugh, that would be pretty intrusive; I think mvo and I had a better solution for the langpack selector at least [07:38] pitti: we ship all on 2 out of 6 CDs ;-) [07:38] oh? [07:38] hm [07:38] yes, we would loose more than half of the translations [07:38] "order your ubuntu cd-case today." [07:38] but one of those two is the i386 install CD, which accounts for a disproportionate number of uses [07:38] <\sh> is a dvd not cheaper then? [07:38] dholbach: s/case/backpack/. :-) [07:38] well, DVDs would solve the problem at instant :-) [07:38] \sh: DVDs are more expensive than CDs [07:39] and less portable [07:39] is it possible to do CDs by area? east europe, midle east, etc? [07:39] \sh: we still have to focus on 650MB CD's, unfortunately [07:39] or make Kubuntu a proper derivative with its own archive [07:39] \sh, not everybody has a DVD reader [07:39] ivoks: it is possible to create them, but it is impractical to test them [07:39] ivoks: we already must test 8 images for each release candidate [07:39] mdz: if langpack-o-matic could create different langpacks for Kubuntu than for Ubuntu, that would rock, but with the current structure it can't [07:39] <\sh> ogra: yes :) i forgot the *grmpf* ;) [07:39] er, 9 [07:39] oh, then this would be too much === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:40] didn't think of that :) [07:40] pitti: what's the least intrusive way to split the langpacks? [07:40] one alternative would be to split it to l-p-ubuntu and l-p-kubuntu [07:40] and copy the common stuff into both [07:40] but that's ugly IMHO [07:40] pitti: i'm happy with your first proposal [07:40] unified language packs, while inefficient in terms of space, are awfully attractive due to their simplicity [07:41] it just means the language selector needs to be smart [07:41] mdz: right [07:41] sabdfl: so we don't support KDE translations in Rosetta? [07:41] mdz: you mean install all the gnome translations on a fresh kubuntu box? [07:41] sabdfl: I mean the approach we're already using [07:41] sabdfl: would be the easiest solution, but redundant and non-symmetrical [07:42] pitti: what's non-symmetrical about -base, -gnome and -kde? [07:42] mdz: what do you mean by "way to split"? [07:42] sabdfl: oh, I thought you meant (1) in my mail [07:42] pitti: I can't find your email; what was the subject? [07:42] sabdfl: (1) in mail was the status quo [07:42] ah, found it [07:42] no, LanguagePackRoadmap [07:42] "27.06.05 18:43 Martin Pitt Preparing tomorrow's language pack TB topic" [07:42] sabdfl: ah, ok, so that would be the split [07:43] it has its warts, but i can't see a better one [07:43] pitti: is there any significant advantage of (3) over (1) for breezy? [07:43] mdz: it means kubuntu has translations on CD [07:43] Riddell: gnome translations, you mean? [07:43] mdz: Rosetta support mainly [07:44] mdz: and Kubuntu does not need to ship gnome translations and instead has room for kde ones [07:44] mdz: 3 means we have translations, 1 means we don't have KDE translations [07:44] well, there is no golden solution anyway, we just have to choose the pain [07:44] pitti: why does (1) make rosetta support impossible? [07:45] mdz: nowhere for rosetta to output to [07:45] mdz: not impossible, but we had to regenerate kde-i18n-foo, which consists of more than translations [07:45] oh, I see, it uses kde-i18n-foo rather than language-pack-kde [07:45] mdz: it would be possible, I guess, with some hacking [07:45] (3) seems the clear winner, to me [07:46] would it be possible to give Kubuntu it's own archive? [07:46] not for breezy [07:46] or would that make sense? [07:46] no, not for breezy, but in the long run [07:46] I think we could live with option (1) for breezy [07:46] if we have a solution in sight for breezy+n [07:47] we should take advantage of rosetta for kubuntu === Riddell doesn't like (1) at all [07:47] understandable [07:48] mdz: I think the biggest con of (3) is the hoary->breezy upgrade [07:48] I don't see that as a major issue [07:49] when the language pack is upgraded, we'll drop an update-notifier hook to prompt the user to reconfirm their language settings [07:49] well, upgrade notes, just as for Hoary (when users lost all their translations as well) [07:49] that sounds good [07:49] any further unresolved issues regarding language packs? [07:50] Ineed to convince elmo to accept 400 new packages :-) [07:50] anybody has serious issues with (3)? [07:50] elmo: would you like to weigh in on this? [07:50] pitti, give them to doko, then elmo wont even recognize ;) [07:51] ok, thanks guys for your input [07:51] ok, you can follow up with elmo later if he takes issue with it [07:51] ok, I'll do [07:51] next up, REVU with no person associated with it [07:52] ogra? [07:52] hmm... sec === \sh is the spokesman :) [07:52] it's always better to hear more than just the own opinion when trashing he archive :-) [07:52] <\sh> and ogra :) and dholbach [07:52] linspire just did their German edition release [07:52] mdz, you could put MOTU aside :) [07:52] they wait till they have a certain coverage of translations, then release a dedicated iso [07:52] has the advantage that the installer can skip the language question [07:52] and just install the language it is dedicated to === Amaranth [Amaranth@amaranth.user] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:52] ogra: /me points to the "INCLUDE YOUR NAME" comment in the wiki [07:53] i wondered if there is any interest in us making similar releases? === \sh is the faulty one :) [07:53] sabdfl: we've discussed it; the primary issue is testing [07:53] mdz, i didnt put it there ... \sh ! [07:53] :) [07:53] sabdfl: but then, you get to keep half a gazillion ISOs on cdimage. [07:53] we need to at least sanity check every ISO release [07:53] mdz: i don't know how this would fit into the broader picture, i would not want to amp up the number of iso's on the main release [07:53] <\sh> mdz: put the blame on me pls :) i need to put it asap on the agenda :) [07:53] if we do 10 localized ISOs, we need to test them all [07:53] i suspect these would best be distributed from the loco websites [07:53] 10 locales x 3 architectures = 30 more test cases [07:53] we would only do releases that the loco teams want, they test, when they're happy, we push the button [07:54] mdz: have we considered doing some sort of automated testing similar to the lab joeyh has set up? [07:54] right now we still have the ability to ship 10 translations on a CD, which make them somewhat more universal [07:54] Mithrandir: where "considered" -> "gee, that would be nice" [07:54] sabdfl, you mean additional localized ones ? or our default release ? [07:54] sabdfl: maybe is possible to have more locos in same image, this way more loco teams would work on testing [07:54] sabdfl: that would make much sense with translations we don't put on CDs though, even if the images are sort of unofficial [07:54] ivoks: that's a cool idea [07:55] mdz: not "gee, that would be nice, let us commit some resources to it"? [07:55] if we could automate the process of generating the install iso, we could make this work [07:55] sabdfl: I expect we would need the launchpad infrastructure in order to manage production of localized ISOs [07:55] mdz: absolutely [07:55] maintaining that many sets of seeds is impractical in our current setup [07:55] i'll bounce the idea off kinnison in brazil [07:56] ok, can we close the language pack discussion? [07:56] ok [07:56] thanks [07:56] from my side yes [07:56] thanks [07:57] revu ! [07:57] right, next is \sh on REVU [07:57] :> [07:57] <\sh> yes [07:57] <\sh> I don't know if anybody is informed about our new toy :) [07:57] \sh, give us an introduction :) [07:57] \sh: perhaps a one-line explanation of what REVU does, for the benefit of those listening at home :-) [07:57] url again? [07:57] http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/ [07:57] http://siretart.tauware.de/revu/ [07:57] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU?highlight=%28REVU%29 [07:58] <\sh> to have a view inside, please refere to http://revu.ubuntu.linux-server.org/ [07:58] <\sh> I created an account for you all, that u can have a look inside [07:58] <\sh> username: sh@linux-server.org and pw: sabdfl ;) [07:58] sabdfl, its a tool for test autobuilding packages, collecting comments and seeing all data about a package that should get reviewed [07:58] <\sh> (will be deleted in anyway after this meeting :)) [07:59] <\sh> some adds to ogra: [07:59] and collecting advocates (3 for MOTU NEW packages) [07:59] yeah [07:59] <\sh> right now we're reviewing newpackages for MOTU via wiki..which is not bad, but it's sometimes confusing [07:59] so it perfectly mirrors our review process [07:59] and its written in python :) [08:00] <\sh> so siretart had an idea of doing it via a webinterface, with database and build automation [08:00] <\sh> siretart and a friend of him wrote this nice little peace of software, and now we're trying to establish it to the motu world :) [08:01] ROCKS! [08:01] <\sh> right now, uploading packages (debuild -S -sa) and putting comments etc. is working. the test build is included the next days [08:01] automatic linda and lintian are additional features [08:01] but we feel it would belong into the DC, but we need a sbuild capable environment, so a vserver might not work [08:01] <\sh> we have only limited resources on our servers, siretart has only a vserver without the possibility to create a sbuild env. and I have only my server with more then one service running on it [08:01] (strike one but :) ) [08:02] <\sh> dholbach: it's included already ;) [08:02] <\sh> we can inject all automatic tests we need through hooks [08:02] \sh: i didn't say they were missing :) [08:03] <\sh> ok, now we're looking for a permanent home :) [08:03] \sh: are you interested in working on AutomatedTesting as well? ;-) [08:03] right, the matter at hand [08:03] are the linode servers not capable of sbuild? [08:03] <\sh> mdz: let me do my other todos first :) [08:04] surely you can chroot from a vserver ... === \sh needs a cloning facility ;) [08:04] assuming you get root in the vserver [08:04] mdz, \sh first needs to write a KDE version of gnome-power ) [08:04] <\sh> Kamion: sbuild also? would u provide us with a solution? what we found out, that we need admin capabilities [08:05] <\sh> and then update-manager and SER and my normal work, and then life [08:05] mdz: i think linode gives you root [08:05] it's either Xen or UML based [08:05] \sh, forget about your normal work, who nees TV anyway :) [08:05] \sh: if you don't have root, then indeed that would be a problem; if you do, then it's relatively straightforward assuming sufficient disk space [08:05] sbuild just requires root [08:06] <\sh> ogra: u pay my rent? ,-) [08:06] heh, depends *g* [08:06] <\sh> and my wife ;-) [08:06] <\sh> ex at least ;) [08:06] NO ! [08:06] <\sh> more expensive ;) [08:06] yep [08:06] guys... :) [08:06] ok, offtopic here [08:07] \sh: so is the root issue that you need help setting up sbuild? [08:07] mdz, nope, we'd like a machine in the DC [08:07] ogra: why? [08:07] <\sh> mdz: it's that and resources...I can handle only a bit more...but then my server will break [08:08] sbuild in the test env is already running [08:08] how about a linode? [08:08] sabdfl, can we ge sbuild running there ? [08:08] get even [08:08] ogra: yes, i believe so, it's a root environment [08:08] UML i think [08:08] ah, great, then this would suffice [08:09] uh [08:09] elmo, objections ? [08:10] elmo: we need to get a purchase order for a bunch of linode's in [08:10] this is a buildd that only accepts uploads signed by universe maintainers right? [08:10] elmo, yes [08:10] then we need a very lightweight process to get those fired up [08:10] <\sh> elmo: yes [08:10] elmo: and MOTU hopefuls [08:10] elmo, with additional acess control before [08:10] if so - I'm 95% completed work on something that makes it a moot point [08:10] oh, ok, not for MOTU hopefuls [08:10] this is essentially entirely untrusted stuff [08:11] it's probably not even signed at the moment [08:11] ok, nm then [08:11] elmo: we will need the "build a package for anybody" stuff in due course, but i think linode is the answer for this one [08:11] and certainly not by a key we can authenticate [08:11] <\sh> there is no package coming from this system [08:11] sabdfl: want me to sort that out? [08:11] elmo: yes please [08:11] <\sh> all packages are reviewed only and uploaded by MOTUs with upload right to universe [08:12] sabdfl: as long as it doesn't steal cycles from backports ;-) [08:12] \sh: NO, they are uploaded by MOTU hopefuls as well [08:12] dholbach, he means in the end [08:12] ogra: well uploads to the archive were already handled before :) [08:13] dholbach, yeps [08:13] :) [08:14] ok, so the resolution is to set up a linode system to run these builds [08:14] any further unresolved issues? === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:14] \sh: we will pay for the linode system, she's yours to play with === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["This] [08:14] \sh: will this meet your needs? [08:14] <\sh> sabdfl: we are honoured :) and I have to say thx for siretart in absence as well :) [08:15] elmo: let's talk about a streamlined linode-for-community deal tomorrow? [08:15] <\sh> mdz: of course [08:15] sabdfl: sure [08:15] elmo: are you in london tomorrow? [08:15] sabdfl: all week [08:15] cool [08:15] I am in london in ~48 hours [08:15] next up? [08:15] mdz: rock :-) [08:15] sabdfl, done :) [08:15] that's the end of the agenda [08:15] any other business? [08:16] \sh: REVU looks very cool, well done [08:16] <\sh> sabdfl: I will report it to siretart, I think he will be very proud to hear that :) [08:16] sabdfl, its siretarts baby, \sh has set up the backend [08:17] ok, looks like it's safe to adjourn [08:17] thanks, everyone [08:17] <\sh> thx mdz [08:17] thanks mdz [08:17] thanks folks === mdke [~matt@mdke.user] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [08:18] thanks mdz === pitti [~pitti@195.227.105.180] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === kronoss [~kronoss@FW-7-250.go.retevision.es] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["exit(0)"] === ivoks [~ivoks@lns01-0623.dsl.iskon.hr] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Kamion_ [~cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === froud [~sean@ndn-165-143-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === chmj [~chmj@196.11.241.45] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === mgalvin [~mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont__ [~lamont@15.238.5.60] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-52-214.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["I] === niran [~niran@cpe-67-10-213-51.houston.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === Kamion [~cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Kamion__ [~cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [~mdz@ca-studio-bsr1o-251.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Client] === Kamion_ [~cjwatson@83-216-156-196.colinw664.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === solomarv [~solomarv@idontknow.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SEBest [~chatzilla@sebest.ovibes.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === KaiL [KaiL@p548F52CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === KaiL [KaiL@p548F52CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Glaubt] === SEBest [~chatzilla@sebest.ovibes.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === tobi_v [~tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === \sh [~shermann@server3.servereyes.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === tobi_v [~tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === mvo [~egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["This] === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === wdh [~WdH@82-197-194-136.dsl.cambrium.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === wdh [~WdH@82-197-194-136.dsl.cambrium.nl] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Mez [~mez@82-36-228-130.cable.ubr01.perr.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sabdfl [~mark@217.205.109.249] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || Logs -- http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs || Thu 30 June 14:00 UTC Documentation Team -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda || Tue 5 July 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tue 12 July 22:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || This is NOT #ubuntu, or #ubuntu-devel === siretart [~siretart@tauware.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting []