[12:02] nah [12:02] its all community love [12:02] then we'll nominate Burgundavia for it...with a picture of him in a hot air balloon [12:02] ok then [12:03] i think you have a reply on your NameSpaces request [12:03] but its not clear who wrote what [12:03] You can use subpages for that currently. They scale better than this weird concept obviously copied from MediaWiki. [12:03] heh [12:03] that is what I didn't write [12:03] you have one on Templates too [12:03] Burgundavia, yeah i checked the diffs [12:04] This feature has been working for years [12:04] wtf!!!! [12:04] ;) === Burgundavia bashes his head against the wall [12:07] woah amazing [12:08] i got like 40 or 50 ubuntu CD's in the post this morning [12:08] hi there k31th_ [12:08] cool === robitaille still waiting for his CDs.... [12:08] need to start on my DOC work really have had no time [12:08] robitaille: took a while [12:08] k31th_, that would be awesome [12:09] I got mine [12:09] all settled in at work now so i can do it there [12:09] infact [12:09] get paid to do it :D awesome [12:10] yeah well i do the work whe its there and dneeds doing but i need to be there incase i need to go off site or some one rings up etc plus doing ubuntu docs will help improve my knowledge of linux / unix systems and commands === Burgundavia bashes his head against the wall some more [12:10] so its all benifical [12:11] just installed Ubuntu on my sisters Desktop [12:12] really like my new job my boss knows shit loads about linux / unix learning alot [12:13] started using vi instead of nano takes some doing getting used to sing cmd line in vi mode [12:14] sup burgs/ [12:14] ? [12:15] oh, just stupid moin-ness [12:16] such as? [12:16] i bet [12:16] a women is involved [12:16] camelcase [12:16] and other stupid moin shit [12:18] I didn't know Ubuntu kernel have version names [12:18] zcat /usr/share/doc/linux-image-2.6.10-5-k7/changelog.Debian.gz | grep -e "Release" [12:18] The "Gracious Gooseberry" Release [12:18] ... [12:18] LOL [12:19] the kernel team is crazy [12:19] nuts [12:19] in a good way [12:19] yeah it's funny....The "Radioactive Radish" Release. [12:20] The "Prickly Pear" Release. [12:20] i need a pet penguin [12:21] never mind cats and dogs [12:21] can you litter train them easily? [12:22] for a while I had that dream of becoming a zoologist to go study pinguins in the south pole [12:23] i saw a program where penguins were wandering around in the middle of town [12:23] in north america somewhere i think [12:24] lol [12:25] i see dell are wacking those dell 20" LCD's out for 300 uk pounds and its the same pannel as the apple ones [12:25] tempted i am [12:25] i want a flat panel [12:25] but it has to be 50 quid or so [12:25] mdke: oh your in the uk [12:25] sure [12:26] kool [12:26] where abouts ruffly [12:26] you're in swindow [12:26] swindon [12:26] right? [12:26] nr it === mdke proves he has a better memory than k31th_ [12:26] yous [12:26] london [12:26] london ? [12:26] ahh yes [12:27] i hve to go to london soon it install a server [12:28] Effort [12:29] to install a shitty windoze domain controller with exchange [12:29] ouch [12:30] yes [12:30] exchange is a lot of fun to play with [12:30] its a heap of shit [12:31] personally i think linux wendmail with imap and the use Mozilla Calander on a network share [12:31] is good enough [12:31] then use samba as a DC [12:34] Burgundavia, robitaille #ubuntu-bugs [12:44] well, #moin was more friendly then I anticipated [12:46] iv had enough of reading my C programing book [12:46] must get some slee [12:46] night [12:46] sleep [12:47] night [12:47] Burgundavia, they are friendly yeah [12:47] we even came to an agreement [12:47] and it was one I liked [12:47] what was that? [12:47] http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/Templates [12:47] on this one [12:48] good to hear [12:49] alex schemmer said that it would take about an hour or so [12:49] wonder if I can convince ubuntu to pay for it? [01:14] is enrico still happy to deal with our bugs? === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:33] we'll have to ping one of the mailing list admin for ubuntu-doc to allow all these bug report to go through the mailing list. [01:33] thats not me [01:33] I think mdke is one [01:33] ubuntu-doc list run by enrico at enricozini.org, jgotangco at gmail.com, bubbly1 at speedlink.com.au [01:33] nope [01:34] jerome and liz [01:34] i don't see liz around much [01:34] but jerome will do it [01:34] ok 10 more on their way [01:36] liz is basically gone I think [01:49] jerome is gonna have a heart attack when he gets the moderation list === mdke writes email [01:53] ideas on #3353 dudes? [01:58] hmm [01:58] just have to maintain our own packages for that stuff [01:59] it can be edited in the debian source package right? [02:00] yep [02:00] hmm [02:00] debian is splitting a whole lot of man packages out [02:00] due ot the GFDL stupidity [02:05] right [02:05] tbh i don't think that man page is gonna be high priority right now [02:05] maybe we can use the apt guide from the wiki and make an xml doc in generic/ [02:06] not really [02:07] heh [02:07] #9082 is reported by Kinnison's dad [02:07] i need to get my parents on Ubuntu and submitting bugs [02:09] ok enough [02:09] time for bed [02:10] I need to move my parents to Ubuntu [02:10] and I file the bugs for my brother [02:10] night Burgundavia [02:10] night [02:12] #3353...is that a doc team problem? Or it will go into branding by individual packages, done by the maintainers of these packages [02:14] man pages are probably our issue [02:15] well.. manpages are usually installed by the individual packages. [02:15] and good night :) === mgalvin [~mgalvin@cpe-69-205-46-35.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:53] hi all [02:54] i checked out the documentation and thought i would start contributing some place simple [02:55] is adding some gnome menu items under ubuntu-doc/gnome/menus/C an ok place for me to start? [02:56] is there any other particular place that would be best to start? [03:02] not really [03:02] pick something that interests you [03:02] and send patches to the mailing list [03:02] a few patches and then you get commit access [03:08] how exactly is the ubuntuguide being used here? working on that content would be best since i wrote the ppc version and know that stuff. === warthylog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Topic for #ubuntu-doc: Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first. === Topic (#ubuntu-doc): set by mdke at Mon Jun 20 20:43:03 2005 [07:08] ? [07:09] all doc bugs are already diverted to ubuntu-doc [07:09] was a gnome doc bug [07:09] not ours [07:10] if we were in baz, we'd probably have access to upstream docs [07:10] yes [07:11] the gnome doc project is essentially dead [07:11] and they are thinking of the same things as we are [07:11] if i remember right, jdub indicated this before [07:11] how can we revitalize them? [07:11] that we can adopt as a team project [07:12] well basically, all we do at the moment is WRITE documentation [07:12] (although Ubuntu-specific) [07:13] like you said, there's so much to improve in existing documentation (although GNOME-specific) [07:13] and that the gnome doc project is essentially dead === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === judax_ [~judax@ppp-69-148-18-161.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.104.86.222] has left #ubuntu-doc [""] === uniq [charlie@213.184.199.55] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [~matt@mdke.user] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-117.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sigurdga [~sigurd@45.80-203-115.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === judax_ [~judax@ppp-69-148-18-161.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sladen [paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jdub [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === k31th [~stealth@flashtek-uk.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [~matt@81-178-117-17.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [~mpt@203-167-186-117.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sigurdga [~sigurd@45.80-203-115.nextgentel.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === JonA [~jonathan@alxpc1jaa2.alx.aber.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~froud@ndn-165-143-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:45] African Greetings === jsgotangco [~user@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.104.86.222] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Skywind [~Skywind@218.104.86.222] has left #ubuntu-doc [""] [11:18] morning guys [11:18] morn :-) === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:25] hello [11:30] :) [11:30] good morning === mdke rubs eyes [11:31] that dist-upgrade to breezy was smooth considering the state of x.org ;) [11:33] :) [11:34] a few bugs though :( [11:35] bugzilla awaits [11:35] jsgotangco, thanks for doing the bug thing [11:35] yep, headed there now [11:43] well it kinda spammed the lists a bit though [11:44] true [11:44] still, everyone around at the time agreed [11:44] including mdz [11:46] jsgotangco, hope you don't mind [11:47] tbh, documentation bugs have been completely unknown to the team til now, i think its a good idea that we do something with them, otherwise its unprofessional for people to file bugs and not receive a response [11:52] well it all went straight to enrico [11:57] yes [11:57] are you ok? [11:57] ? [11:58] if you are asking how i am feeling today, well not so good, i feel i am going to have a cold [11:58] sorry to hear that [11:58] take plenty of green tea [11:58] but if you mean about bugs going to enrico, it is not an issue, we just werent able to notice it sooner [11:58] i meant how are you [11:59] i am cursing redhat at the moment [11:59] i just felt that enrico wasn't forwarding the bugs, so I thought the mailing list was a better solution [11:59] corey and daniel and mdz and ogra agreed [11:59] yeah at least we'll get all bugs on the list [11:59] :) [12:00] bugs that have been open for months can be dealt with [12:00] i think its cool === ealden [~ealden@ipdial-191-235.tri-isys.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:00] when is there going to be a tb? [12:01] there was one last night [12:01] so in 2 weeks [12:02] y? [12:02] ooh new user [12:02] ? [12:02] i wanted to attend [12:03] i thought it was tonight [12:03] gyaahh [12:03] i went to the meeting [12:03] i can tell you what happened if you don't fancy reading the log [12:03] sure [12:03] it wasn't that interesting [12:03] i bet [12:03] what were you interested in, koffice? [12:03] not really [12:03] i mean the whole thing [12:04] ubuntu-doc meetings are more colorful [12:04] aside from CC meetings [12:04] ok the issues were, language-pack splitting [12:04] it was decided to split them into 3 [12:04] lp-gnome lp-kde lp-base/main [12:04] oohhh [12:04] see the mail by pitti to ubuntu-devel for further details [12:05] yeah [12:05] what else? [12:05] then they discussed whether koffice should ship by default with kubuntu instead of OOo [12:05] no decision taken yet [12:05] ahh [12:05] riddell will write up a page of pros and cons, but by the sound of it they are mainly cons: koffice is apparently well buggy [12:06] although the advantage is that it would get less buggy if shipped by kubuntu === FLeiXiuS [~fleixius@pcp0010497935pcs.essex01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:06] hmm [12:06] what else [12:06] anything more interesting [12:06] ah they discussed the new REVU system that I don't really understand [12:06] kde doesnt interest me at the moment [12:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU [12:07] as i've been doing most of my stuff in ratpoison or ion [12:07] (for MOTU) [12:07] never heard of em [12:07] are they good? [12:07] if you prefer using the keyboard [12:08] i've been trying e17 recently, it rocks [12:08] if immensely buggy [12:08] heh [12:08] hmmm i haven't been doing svn stuff lately [12:08] i have been busy with family [12:08] i gtg [12:08] my wife is still in KL [12:09] everything cool with family? [12:09] ah yeah [12:10] well i gotta go too..i gotta shop some stuff for home [12:10] okies [12:10] take care === Seveas [~seveas@ksl403-uva-141.wireless.uva.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [~ealden@ipdial-191-235.tri-isys.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kornbluth.freenode.net === mdke [~matt@81-178-117-17.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jdub [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [~corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === boglot [chaas@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [~dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mvirkkil [~mvirkkil@vipunen.hut.fi] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [~rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Njal [~chatzilla@dsl-80-43-203-46.access.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:05] lo [02:05] hiya [02:06] hows you? [02:11] Njal, fine thanks, you? [02:11] im ok [02:12] what's this about the gnome guide? [02:12] bit lost [02:13] the gnome guide should be quite useful for our userguide, some of it is out of date, but there is much good material we can just copy and paste [02:14] from gnome.org i presume? [02:15] ? [02:16] you can find it there yes, but it is also in gnome if you use gnome [02:16] oh [02:16] i didn't know that [02:16] never really had purpose to look for it [02:17] me neither [02:23] this girl is SO HOT [02:23] http://sexydesktop.co.uk/kr/kreuk321024x768.jpg [02:25] cough [02:27] lol [02:28] man i installed this asterisk at home and its nailed this CentOS server hard in the ass [02:28] total scripted install that takes over every thing === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:53] does anyone have any ideas for #9082? [02:53] i guess we need froud for that one [03:03] well.. File:///usr/share/doc/xorg-common/FAQ.xhtml does not exist.. the FAQ.xhtml file is gziped and is named FAQ.xhtml.gz === gtaylor [~gtaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === gtaylor [~gtaylor@130-127-67-44.lehotsky.clemson.edu] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Kopete] === mgalvin [~mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === melodie [~joyce@dyn-213-36-128-19.ppp.tiscali.fr] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:26] hello all :) [03:26] mdke are you present ? === jjesse [~jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [~mgalvin@host-66-202-95-170.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:43] wow don' t read email for a day and swamped with stuff fromthe doclist [04:43] :) === robitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ealden [~ealden@ipdial-191-235.tri-isys.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jeroen_ [~jeroen@cp413115-a.tilbu1.nb.home.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:22] fyi, i just uploaded my first faqguide patch to the list === Seveas [~seveas@seveas.demon.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~sean@ndn-165-143-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jeffsch [~jeffsch@fatwire-201-201.uniserve.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:11] hey froud, you there? [07:12] mmmhmmm [07:12] waz up [07:12] somebody said gnome docteam is dead. know if there is any truth to that rumour? [07:12] mostly [07:12] yes [07:13] basically the main people who were involved were sun [07:13] Sun has been supporting it for a long time [07:13] i sense a but coming [07:13] but they have recently not being doing much [07:13] now they pulled out becuase of other deadlines [07:13] grin [07:13] so they must build a team all over again [07:13] sad, really sad [07:13] that is coupled with lack of interest in hacking yelp === froud is not allowed to go there [07:14] they just released v1.6 of GNOME style guide a few days ago [07:14] yes [07:15] but it takes more than just a few people to maintain all that is gnome docs [07:15] the problem with docs at the gnome level is that docs are so distro specific [07:15] perhaps [07:16] menus are different, artwork is different [07:16] from the docs? [07:16] confusing for users when help docs don't match reality [07:17] yeah, gnome docs are specific to default gnome menus and artwork [07:17] well, its a fundamental flaw in the attitude FOSS has toward documenters [07:17] yeah, they don't see the importance [07:17] and technically GNOME docs are not hosted in a manner that supports any downstream support [07:18] its that w/ a lot of projects, if there are any docs there in a wiki that isn't very good [07:18] gnome is badly fragmented IMHO [07:19] http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-cranky34.html [07:19] KDE has its problems, but the approach is different and it's easier to get support from downstreams [07:19] yes saw that [07:21] jeffsch: to develop documentation on a distro level you need a dedicated team of people paid to focus on, lead and move forward [07:21] did you see doc searls column in June Linux Journal? [07:21] no [07:22] jeffsch: but free distros generally dont understand documentation [07:22] the column was about a school district switching to linux [07:23] i remember reading it now [07:23] jeffsch: most fail to understand that docs are an integral part of "whole product" development and key to any "go-to-market" strategy [07:23] basically, they chose red hat because it has tons of documentation [07:23] yes, and a paid team who does it :-) [07:24] It's just another example of how documentation is a fundamental component of any Linux "go-to-market" strategy [07:25] unfortunatley most distros understand software development and not marketing [07:25] yeah. see the ubuntu docs. the typical user gets lost pretty quickly [07:25] even our beloved Ubuntu falls short of this [07:25] the devels forget that non-devels might be interested in using the system too [07:26] and the org is run by devels, no? [07:26] you said it, not me :-) [07:26] good on you [07:27] don't get me started on devels and their superior attitudes :) [07:27] but as I have learned people don't really want people excercising free speech when it comes to this subject [07:27] aint that the truth [07:27] imho there are two types of devel: Type I and Type II [07:27] about devels adn superior attitudes [07:27] Type I thinks he is a god [07:28] Type II thinks he is God [07:28] :-) [07:28] yep, you have two choices. Like it or love it [07:28] The heart is in the right place [07:29] but the brain sees only 1's and 0's [07:29] anything above the code is irrelevant [07:29] Hey guys, why don't you said up #ubuntu-doc-devel-interaction or something instead of bashing the devels (yes I know it was a joke) [07:29] replace 'said up' with found [07:29] jeroen_: because the deserve it :-) [07:30] everytime one discusses this subject, somebody always take offense [07:30] brb [07:30] but that is human nature [07:31] david ottina is right about user profiles of ubuntu end-users [07:32] +1 to that [07:32] jeffsch, what did he say/does he think about user profiles of ubuntu end-users? [07:33] he says we don't have them [07:33] and implies that we need them [07:34] a writer needs to know the audience. it affects what you write and how you present it [07:35] you write differently for a technical audience than you do for "aunt tillies" [07:36] jeffsch: deja vue [07:36] for example, a technical audience knows right away what you mean when you write DNS when talking about the internet [07:37] for some reason this whole converstation sounds familiar didn't we have it awhile ago? [07:37] aunt tilly needs to have DNS explained in the text, maybe even a couple of paragraphs, and a glossary entry [07:38] https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/audience-analysis.xml [07:38] https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/environment-analysis.xml [07:38] if red hat docs have that explanation for aunt tilly, then she will use red hat and not ubuntu [07:38] https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/content-specification.xml [07:38] or even worse, stick with windows(spit) [07:38] https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/information-plan.xml [07:41] jeffsch: this work was done by me on/around 16/04 [07:41] the framework is there [07:41] but the will to execute is not [07:42] i know. I added it back to the agenda for tomorrow's meeting [07:42] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda [07:42] he he, rather you than me ;-) [07:43] jeffsch, how about making DNS clickable ? [07:44] docteam.ubuntu.com - this has been agreed upon to host draft documents for review. The current status and preview pages at DocteamProjects is so outdated but prospective documentation members still refer to it the first time they encounter the docteam pages. This site will serve as a "staging area" for documents already tagged as "WIP" . [07:44] jeroen_: that might be difficult in paper book format [07:44] since when was it agreed. I have not seen any acknowledgement about docteam.u.c only help.u.c [07:45] jeffsch, you mean printed documents? Well, you're right then [07:46] Its called a Glossary ;-) [07:46] jeroen_: plus making it clickable is a useability issue... some like it, some don't [07:46] "DocteamProjects is so outdated but prospective documentation" only true for GNOME [07:47] jeffsch: Hmmm, that's a debate [07:48] yeah, it's almost religious. my feeling is, if your audience will like it, then give it to them. If not, then don't. [07:49] jeffsch: if you want to fly the banner for all these issues, you're more than welcome. Just be warned that the road is booby trapped [07:49] not because of me :-) [07:50] I may be accused of being a dictator again [07:50] bah. it just takes time, and patience. nothing gets done immediately. [07:50] lol [07:50] breezy +6 [07:51] more and more people are noticing that we don't have user profiles [07:51] so eventually, we will have them [07:51] but we won't have them tomorrow [07:51] the same applies to about 6 other debates we have had until now [07:52] today I see people speaking about gnome and describing vendor drops [07:52] the otherday using db profiles [07:52] but I dont see it happening [07:52] yeah. look how long people complained about wiki organization. now it's on our agenda for tomorrow. [07:52] progress! [07:52] meet and talk is easy dude [07:53] execute [07:53] that's something else [07:53] it's a step in the right direction [07:53] :-) you believer you [07:54] hey, we are reasonable people, and we play well together (usually) === froud notices that meeting topic are all heavy discussions [07:54] wonder how long this meeting will take [07:54] play well, dunno about work well [07:54] What's wrong with the wiki organisation? [07:55] careful jeroen_ [07:55]