/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/07/05/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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highvoltageanyone on this channel coming to the edubuntu summit?10:31
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mdkehello everyone03:54
jsgotangcohi03:54
jsgotangcowe can start in a few minutes03:55
mdke5 mins?03:55
jsgotangcosure03:55
jsgotangcoim still testing out this hula account03:55
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mdkeaha03:56
jsgotangcohno73: hey03:56
hno73hello all :)03:56
jsgotangcook let's just wait the others in a minute or so03:57
=== mdke nods
mgalvinhi all03:58
=== froud waves
squinnhi al03:59
squinnll03:59
squinndah all*03:59
jsgotangcoalright lets start04:00
=== froud nods
jsgotangcook this is the start of the regular meeting which will happen bi-weekly04:00
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jsgotangcoto start of, let's introduce ourselves so we'll know who's here04:00
jsgotangco-> Jerome Gotangco04:01
froudSean Wheller04:01
=== mgalvin Matt Galvin
=== hno73 <- Henrik Nilsen Omma
mdke<-- matthew east04:01
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jsgotangcogreat any lurkers? :)04:02
jsgotangcohmm i guess none, we're well represented anyways04:03
froudhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda04:03
jsgotangcohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda04:03
jsgotangcothat's our agenda for today04:03
jsgotangcobtw, this page will be always upated for the next meetings04:03
jsgotangcoalright we go straight to agenda #104:04
jsgotangcoStyleGuide04:04
jsgotangcohmmm jeffsch is still not here although i made sure i set the meeting with him in mind04:04
froudJeff is leading that, but is not present04:04
squinnOkay.04:04
jsgotangcoyeah, but he said this was a good time for him anyway...04:05
mdkecome back to it when he arrives?04:05
jsgotangcothis is pretty much WIP at the moment and it needs love04:05
froudno move on04:05
jsgotangcothe reason why we had to put this first in agenda is because we'll need consistency in the documents04:05
froudyes people need to take a look and see if they can contribute to it04:05
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froudI can take the docbook section, pending decisions on this meeting04:06
jsgotangcojeffsch actually asked me to look into some sections to contribute like writing for an international audience04:06
mdkethere is a lot of good material in the gnome guide for that04:06
mdkei would suggest copying it04:06
jsgotangcoyes, jeffsch actually suggested it04:06
froudalso look a KDE Guide :-)04:06
jsgotangcohe has a good number of referrences on the doc04:06
mdkeyeah04:07
jsgotangcobut he hopes people who are currently contributing would also consider the contribution to the Style guide because we will all use it04:07
froudso jsgotangco you will take the international audience aspect04:07
jsgotangcofroud: yup, i'll cover that04:08
froudI will take the docbook aspect04:08
froudwhat else is there04:08
jsgotangcohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide04:08
judaxgreetings, sorry I am late04:09
froudwho are we following for Grammar and Spelling04:09
jsgotangcoi suggest people look into it and see what to contrribute04:09
froudis it Chicago Manual of Style?04:09
squinn<- Sean Quinn, oops sorry.04:09
jsgotangcofroud: i believe so, that's what jeffsch preferred if i remember04:09
froudOK04:10
froudso then those sections should be easy to complete04:10
jsgotangcoif the Style Guide is released in a few months, we can all adhere to it to our docs for breezy04:10
froudjust reference the CMS04:10
mdkejsgotangco, +04:11
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mdkeeveryone should take the time to read it04:11
jsgotangcocompletion of the Style Guide is a signicant accomplishment for the project itself04:11
jsgotangcospeaking of jeffsch04:11
jeffschhowdy04:11
jsgotangcojeffsch: we were just discussing styleguide04:11
froudspeak of the devil and he will appear04:11
squinnyeah, welcome jeffsch..nice timing04:11
froudjsgotangco: you want recap for jeffsch 04:12
jsgotangcojeffsch: we just started with styleguide and who will tackle on the parts04:12
jsgotangcoi will look into international audience04:12
jsgotangcofroud will tackle docbook stuff04:12
jsgotangcofor grammar stuff, will we be using chicago manual?04:13
squinnyes, i think so, jsgotangco 04:13
jsgotangcojeffsch?04:14
jeffschdo we all have access to chicago?04:14
froudjeffsch: are you ok with CMS04:14
froudI do04:14
jsgotangcoim a bit familiar with it04:14
jeffschif we don't have access to it, then there's not much point specifying it04:15
froudhttp://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/04:15
squinnfroud, right.04:15
froudhttp://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html04:15
froudYou can register to it and use it as a search04:16
froudif you dont have a print copy04:16
jeffschyes, but that is not the whole manual04:16
jsgotangcohmmm do we really need everyone to know CMS04:16
froudjeffsch: no but what is there is good04:16
froudhttp://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/search.html04:16
froudjsgotangco: no not realy04:17
froudits mostly for resolving dispute04:17
squinnoh, wow, they're about $35 for print04:17
froudwhen ppl disagree CMS governs04:17
jsgotangcook so we let everyone work first in their own but we'll need a review period on docs for editorial stuff04:17
froudyep04:18
jsgotangcook the question now is who would contribute in that particular section04:18
jsgotangco(it is pretty crucial btw)04:18
froudwhat spelling and grammar?04:18
froudnot me dude I stink in both these departments04:19
jsgotangcoanyone what to take a look at it at least?04:19
squinnI could contribute a little bit to the StyleGuide.04:19
jsgotangcoif not we'll put it still in the open04:19
froudjsgotangco: jeffsch is the lingo expert, but he did all the work04:19
squinnBut not in a lead.04:19
jeffschjsgotangco: are we talking about who does reviews, or who does styleguide?04:20
jsgotangcowell i can't do that either, english isn't my primary language04:20
jsgotangcojeffsch: styleguide04:20
froudjeffsch: grammar and spelling04:20
froudhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/GrammarPunctuationSpelling04:20
jeffschpeople have signed up for "doc leads" on DocteamProjects....04:20
jeffschmaybe they can take some responsibility04:21
froudmore, huh :-)04:21
squinnRight.04:21
jsgotangcook i will review the other style guides and see what we can do04:21
jeffschone of the hazards of stepping forward, i guess :-)04:22
mgalvini speak english as my primary lang, I am sure I can at least help with some of that04:22
jsgotangcomgalvin: great04:22
squinnAgain, I can contribute with StyleGuide04:22
froudthere you go :-)04:22
mdkei can help review docs, but probably not work on Styleguide04:22
squinnbut I can't take StyleGuide in a lead position.04:22
squinnJust as a contributer.04:22
jsgotangcosure UK english sounds better IMO04:22
mdkesquinn, cotnributor is awesom04:22
mdkejsgotangco, ++++++04:22
mdke;)04:23
jeffschok great! so we have mgalvin, squinn, mdke woo hoo!04:23
froudjsgotangco: UK en is rotten :-)04:23
jeffschdid i miss anyone?04:23
mdkejeffsch, i can't work on the styleguide04:23
mdkebut I will do review of docs based on what the styleguide says04:23
jeffschdoh! i read too quickly...04:23
froudcool04:23
squinnhah i noticed that04:23
jsgotangcojeffsch: i'll do the i18n04:23
jsgotangcoalright, StyleGuide seems to be back on track...04:24
jsgotangcoanything more on StyleGuide04:24
jsgotangco?04:25
=== mgalvin stepping away for a moment, will be back in a min
jsgotangcohmm not sure if i am lagged, but we'll move to #204:26
jsgotangco"Revisit Doc Planning"04:26
squinnno lag jsgotangco 04:26
jsgotangcohmmm who added this04:26
squinnwe're just quiet. 04:26
jeffschme04:26
mdkejeffsch, perhaps you can outline what you mean briefly04:27
jsgotangcoi think jeffsch is suggesting each doc have a spec of sorts04:27
squinnjeffsch, do you mean that every doc has a plan like the StyleGuide did?04:27
mdkeyeah, the thing for the styleguide looks incredibly professional04:27
jeffschwe need to know who we are writing for, and the purpose of the doc04:27
mdkewould help newcomers04:27
squinnmdke, I can agree with you there. Quite well done.04:27
jsgotangco(its actually a good idea to have a spec of sorts)04:27
squinnOh, yeah.04:27
squinnjeffsch, ++++04:28
froudjsgotangco: this goes back to https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/content-specification.xml04:28
froudand https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/information-plan.xml04:28
mdkedo we thing something brief like that of the Styleguide is a good idea? I give my +104:28
jsgotangcohmmm i haven't been reading the teamstuff in svn...04:28
jeffschfroud: yes, the idea has been around for a while, but we have yet to do anything with it04:28
froudIt was an idea way back but got no support04:29
froudsnap04:29
jsgotangcoi'd give my vote on something like this04:29
mdkei think something brief like has been done on the Styleguide is a good idea, anything more detailed might be more work than we can handle though04:29
jsgotangcoit gives a good idea on what to do for newcomers04:29
froudI will do it for the Kubuntu docs04:30
jsgotangcofroud: ALL? :)04:30
froudIf I must04:30
mdkecan the persons who are taking charge of each doc take care of it?04:30
jsgotangcoi was thinking of what mdke just suggested04:30
mdkei think that could be an important part of what that job involves04:30
jsgotangcoand use the style used in the StyleGuide04:30
froudwell I will open a docspec dir in kde04:30
mdkealong with maintaining the status and preview 04:30
froudand put the files there04:30
froudthen people can take ownership04:31
jsgotangcook can we announce this on the list then for the specs for docs04:31
froudbut so far nobody but jjesse and I have reported ownership04:31
froudfor Kubuntu that is04:31
jeffschshould the doc plan be only in svn? perhaps a wiki page for each doc04:32
mdkei don't think svn is necessary actually, just wiki page04:32
squinnjeffsch, + for wiki page for each doc04:32
jsgotangcowiki too for me04:32
froudI would like svn and html previews04:32
froudat least for Kubuntu stuff04:33
jsgotangcoalright04:33
jsgotangcoso wiki it is, but froud will do stuff for Kubuntu04:33
mdkehtml preview of what?04:33
mdkeof the document plan?04:34
froudjsgotangco: all th ekubuntu stuff in https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/information-plan.xml links to http://lnix.net/~froud04:34
judaxI have offered ownersip in Kubuntu area04:34
froudjudax great on what?04:34
judaxquickguide and can take more if needed04:35
jsgotangcook hold on this is getting too big04:35
jsgotangcothe proposal is do to a simple spec for docs04:35
froudcool can you update on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects04:35
froudI see troy has some stuff too04:35
froudjsgotangco: I think let the spec be what people want make it04:36
mdkei would tend to agree with froud04:36
froudif its short, so be it04:36
froudif its long, so be it04:36
squinnjsgotangco, I like froud's idea, +.04:36
mdkewith the minimum being something similar to the Styleguide plan04:36
froud+104:36
jsgotangcoright, so people who are doing docs, please consider making a spec and refer to the plan in StyleGuide04:37
squinnOkay.04:37
jsgotangcowe cool in that then04:37
mdkeyeah04:37
jeffsch+1, except change "please consider making" to "please make"04:37
mdkelet's increase our speed otherwise we won't get through the issues04:38
squinnYes, please, + mdke 04:38
jsgotangcook all people writing docs SHOULD MAKE one :)04:38
froudok for kubuntu you will find kde/docspecs04:38
froudsvn commit -m add docspec folder docspecs --non-interactive04:38
judax+104:38
jsgotangcook any more stuff on this, please send to list04:38
froudkk04:38
jsgotangcowe'll go to #3 - format to ship04:39
jsgotangcothis is gonna be tough04:39
=== froud ducks
mdkei don't think it will be too bad04:39
jsgotangcohas anyone read froud's treatise? :)04:39
judaxaye04:39
squinnokay, quick off-topic question..let's not make it a discussion..how can i get an html preview from my svn repo on my computer locally [~/ubuntu-doc/foo/bar]  to the web?04:39
squinnjsgotangco, reading now04:40
froudjsgotangco: there may be a simple solution04:40
jsgotangcofroud: please elaborate04:40
jsgotangco(kubuntu is not an issue here btw)04:40
froudlet gnome do yelp xml04:40
=== mgalvin back
froudand kde we will do html04:41
froudthatleaves only one problem04:41
jsgotangcoyes?04:41
froudproviding that gnome ppl are prepared to lose publishing features04:41
mdkewhy would we do different things for gnome and kde?04:41
froudthen i see no problem04:41
froudnext problem would be the profiles04:41
mdkehang on04:42
froudyelp wont like them04:42
jsgotangcothey wont04:42
froudmdke: status quo04:42
hno73what do you mean by publishing features?04:42
squinnhold on04:42
hno73indexes etc?04:42
froudyes04:42
squinn<xref> i think04:42
mdkedon't move to profiling yet pls froud, we can deal with it next issue04:42
froudhno73: yes04:42
squinnspeaking of xref, shaunm over at gnome-doc-utils says next release is around the corner04:42
froudk04:42
mdkelet's focus04:42
squinnthat will fix endterm04:42
froudsquinn: yes04:43
jsgotangcook give me a few minutes brb04:43
froudppl I proposed the html route to enable certain features and functions04:43
froudand b'cause I thought we could take advantage of them04:43
mdkewhat are the disadvantages of html?04:43
froudbut if it makes life difficult then let's side step it04:44
mdkedoes yelp support it properly?04:44
froudmdke: ye04:44
mdkeso what are the disadvantages?04:44
froudmdke: none04:44
mdkeadvantages would be that we can publish the same files in ubuntu-doc package AND online04:44
froudmdke: yes04:45
mdkedoes any one see disadvantages?04:45
froudand custom style as we wish04:45
hno73How do we link pages together (ie navigation)04:45
squinnyep, which is kind of nice04:45
hno73Yelp has some side bar system04:45
squinnyes04:45
hno73we need to code that in HTML04:45
squinnhno73, sidebar seems to be disable for HTML04:46
froudhno73: you mean the toc04:46
squinnbut i just checked about ubuntu hold on04:46
hno73not just toc, but generally how the user navigates around the docs04:46
hno73forward back and sideways04:46
froudchunked html provides GRUB04:47
froudnext prev, home04:47
hno73Look at this: http://www.theopencd.org/files/beta/4/en/firefox_desc.html04:47
hno73Side menu and tabs that we might use04:48
froudok04:48
jsgotangcoback04:48
hno73next prev, home can be added too04:48
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froudchunk output adds it by default04:49
mdkesounds good04:49
hno73do you have link to chunk?04:49
froudhttp://lnix.net/~froud/kubuntu-install/C/index.html04:49
hno73ok, thanks04:50
froudwe can decide whether or not to suppress the meta04:50
hno73right04:50
jsgotangcowill HTML be more acceptable then for GNOME04:50
froudCSS can do most of the work04:50
squinnright04:51
squinnand yeah, userguide comes out in chunk output04:51
froudin hoary we did ship html versions, they were just not used04:51
squinnhere's my question04:51
squinndo we still edit in xml?04:51
froudyes04:52
squinnand then make qg/ug/html ?04:52
jsgotangcosquinn: of course, its our source04:52
froudsee kde/Makefile04:52
mdkefroud, that html looks great04:52
squinnah, that's true, jsgotangco 04:52
froudwith pwd kde do make kall04:52
mdkeneeds a bit of ubuntu bling tho04:52
squinnmdke, a logo here and there04:53
froudmdke: it uses kde help:/common/kde-default.css with the kio-ioslave04:53
mdkewe can use the ubuntu css04:53
hno73squinn: a bit more04:53
hno73mdke: yes04:53
mdkehenrik you can sort that?04:53
froudmdke: on a kubuntu system it looks like kde docs do04:53
mdkecool04:53
hno73mdke: yes, let me look at the chunk build process04:54
jsgotangcoit seems we're sold on HTML>04:54
jeffschif we decide on html output for gnome, then how does that change the packaging process?04:54
jsgotangcogood question04:54
mdkeyep04:54
mdkewhat problems are we likely to have with -devel?04:55
froudjeffsch: it does not04:55
hno73who packages the docs ATM?04:55
mdkehno73, its kind of improvised04:55
froudenrico04:55
jsgotangco(enrico's pretty much active btw, helping out in the sidelines)04:56
froudyes, bless his cotton socks04:56
hno73mdke: let's try to catch mdz tomorrow and get clarity on that process04:56
froudppl this is a tradeoff decision04:56
squinni'll be right back04:56
hno73including timing04:56
froudhno73: enrico is whitelisted04:56
squinnhno73, who's mdz?04:57
froudhe packages and uploads04:57
jsgotangcosquinn: Matt Zimmerman04:57
squinnthought so04:57
squinnjust wasn't sure04:57
hno73squinn: Ubuntu lead developer04:57
mdkehno73, is he in london?04:57
hno73I still want to ask him about the timeframe04:58
hno73mdke: yes for a few days04:58
froudhno73: for Kubuntu, uniq is building debian/04:58
jsgotangcook 04:58
froudwe should have regular deb builds for kubuntu in a few days04:58
jsgotangcowe're taking a chunk here04:58
jsgotangcook so what's the consensus on this issue04:59
mdkei am attracted to the html idea04:59
judax+1 html04:59
mgalvin+1 html04:59
hno73I'd like to see HTML for both GNOME and KDE04:59
hno73simpler that way04:59
jsgotangcomdke: take advantage on the edubuntu summit and catch some people to discuss the issue04:59
froudplease note that this applies only to ununtu-docs not any gnome doc that happens to get developed in our svn05:00
jsgotangcoright05:00
jsgotangcogood point05:00
froudthose docs must conform to gnome05:00
mdkejsgotangco, ok i'll try05:00
froudbecause the move upstream05:00
mdkewhat gnome docs are worked on in our svn?05:00
jsgotangcois a long road ahead? *grin*05:00
froudfor example in hoary I did ubuntu-update manager and ubuntu-device database05:01
jsgotangcoOK so what's the consensus....05:01
froudthere may be gnome apps developed at ubuntu but not upstream yet, we can do those docs in svn05:01
squinn+1 html05:01
hno73HTML with some added bling05:02
mdkecool05:02
jeffsch+1 html, plus look at getting a sidebar05:02
mdketold you it would be easy05:02
jsgotangcogreat...05:02
mdkewe can put the decision to the TB soon05:02
jsgotangcoright so we're solid on HTML05:02
mdkeits cool to keep them in touch with what we're doing05:02
hno73mdke: +105:03
jsgotangcoright that's why we're going to have regular meetings from now on05:03
jsgotangcoalright where are we05:03
jsgotangco#4 Document Profiling05:03
froudshall I05:03
jsgotangcosurre05:03
froudthe idea is just a time saver for us05:04
froudif we use html we will not have a problem05:04
froudit basically means that we can develop two or more books in one XML-instance05:04
squinnyep, +1 froud 05:04
froudexample Installation Guide05:04
froudhttp://lnix.net/~froud/kubuntu-install/C/index.html05:05
froudThere is an Ubuntu version in the same file05:05
froudbut you only see here the Kubuntu version05:05
squinnWhat do you mean by profiling?05:05
froudat present I have used the os attribute05:05
squinnBasically copy/paste, but change ubuntu to kubuntu or edubuntu?05:06
mdkesquinn, you voted first and then asked what it is?05:06
jsgotangcoso when you make the html output you specified kde/gnome, etc?05:06
froudhold let me get an src example05:06
mdkethe concern I have with profiling is that it may increase the entry level for new users, who will have to learn how to do it05:06
mdke(as I said on the mailing list)05:06
mdkei see that it will save time but it will result in complex docs05:06
jeffschand also, how to decide what gets profiled. what are the criteria?05:07
jsgotangcohmmm05:07
jeffschis it only os the gets profiled?05:07
froudok here is an example05:07
froud<abstract>05:07
froud<para>This provides instruction for the installation of <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase>05:07
froud<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase> from installation CD-ROM media for the05:07
froud&distro-version; release.</para>05:07
froud</abstract>05:07
froudnotice the <phrase os="kde">05:07
squinnmdke, no, i was agreeing with the html > xml profiling05:07
jsgotangcohmmm05:07
squinnmdke, i have a basic idea05:07
froudand the <phrase os="gnome">05:07
froudat time of converting to HTML05:08
jsgotangcoit seems profiling can only happen in specific docs like an install guide05:08
froudwe pass the profile.os param to the stylesheets05:08
jsgotangcobut not on a useguide or a quickguide05:08
froudif it = gnome we get a gnome version05:08
mdkei would be pretty reluctant to profile on OS on the userguide05:08
froudjsgotangco: it is a selective application05:09
squinnI'll be right back.05:09
froudnot recomended for all books05:09
jeffschhow much trouble is it to stop profiling once it has started? 05:09
froudjeffsch: transform the profile to xml05:09
hno73It might also make us tempted to write things in too general a form when there really are differences05:09
froudand commit that instance05:09
mdkehno73, *nods*05:09
hno73to make it fit both 05:09
froudhno73: agreed it does change writing style05:10
mdkebut the main problem i have is that it means that new users, who already find it difficult to get to grips with xml, have another problem05:10
jsgotangcofroud: would it be possible to elaborate on the list on the profiling and what docs are good candidates are?05:10
hno73and bring it up again at the next meeting05:10
froudall docs that are candidates are already profiles05:11
jsgotangcoright05:11
=== terrex_ [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mdkewe should get it decided ASAP tho05:11
mdkethe issue has been out there for a while05:11
mdkei think the pros and cons are quite simple05:12
froudmdke: if its gonna be a long one, then I will just export the profiles out, essentially splitting them05:12
jeffschhow about we just go with "what's done is done" - the currently profiled docs are profiled, others won't be05:12
jeffschand see how it goes05:12
froudIt only really impacts install and faq05:12
mdkei'm still -1 right now05:13
jsgotangcohmmm so its not too big then at the moment, but it will come out soon for sure05:13
froudthe advantage is that when we for example develop the install guide for the graphical installer we are actually doing two books in one shot05:13
=== terrex [~terrex@84-122-69-8.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jsgotangcook so it seems only 2 books for now are affected by profiling05:14
froud90% of the install guide is comon to kde and gnome05:14
mdkeyeah the advantages are obvious05:14
froudno need to duplicate it05:14
=== jdub [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mgalvini have started working on the faq and find that learning and using profiles has not been painful, yet ;)05:14
mdkebut I'm still -1 :p05:15
jsgotangcofroud: it's a good idea to bring this up again on the list and we be specific on the books affected05:15
mdkemgalvin, ah that is good to know!05:15
froudprofiling is easy05:15
jsgotangcoOK so profiling is not so bad as it seems05:15
froudreally05:15
jsgotangcothats good to hea05:15
jsgotangcook so whats the action plan on this issue05:15
froudwe have three of four ppl who are already using them05:16
mdkeif we document it well on the wiki pages, that would help lessen the pain for me ;)05:16
froudit is documented05:16
jsgotangcoany AR on Profiling...05:16
froudppl must please read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html05:16
froudplease, please, pretty please :-)05:17
jsgotangcook shall we move on..profiling seems pretty covered now05:17
mdkefroud, its totally out of order to ask new contributors to read that document05:17
hno73It's just 29 chapters05:17
jsgotangcogyahaha05:17
hno73oh, and 2 apendecies05:17
hno73:)05:17
mdkeits like closing off the team totally to new persons05:17
froudOk I will make it easier for you http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ModularDoc.html05:17
hno73Maybe next week05:18
mdkelike, "you can only be in this team if you are a docbook expert"05:18
mdkethat is not what we want IMO05:18
mdkebecause then we'll end up with just froud ;)05:18
froudmdke: if people what to understand th epossabilities all I am saying is it is documented05:18
froudno need to ducment it again05:18
jsgotangcoOK so there is still a question on profiling and it needs more explanation....05:18
mdkefroud, if we implement profiling, it must be documented for new users on the wiki IMHO05:18
=== froud must do school run be back in 5
mdkein a simple and accessible way05:18
jsgotangcoOK05:19
jsgotangcohold it05:19
jsgotangcothere is no concrete team decision on profiling then05:19
jeffschi like my idea plus mdke's idea05:19
jsgotangcoso we'll put it up again on the next meeting is that good?05:20
jsgotangcoright05:20
jsgotangcoso that's it for profiling then...05:20
mdkejeffsch, i'm still -1 on profiling ;)05:20
hno73docteam.u.c05:20
jsgotangco#5 docteam.ubuntu.com05:21
jsgotangcook this is pretty basic for now05:21
jeffschmdke: bad wolf :)05:21
jsgotangcowe just need to upload stuff05:21
mdkeheh05:21
jsgotangcowe tried to do this before in the svn but it seems to strip the mime types05:21
hno73I spoke with elmo today and we are moving forward on this05:21
mdkeoh good05:21
jsgotangcothat's great05:22
hno73We'll likely get our own space here: http://www.linode.com/05:22
jsgotangcooh yeah05:22
jsgotangcothe loco teams are moving to vps in linode as well05:22
hno73We can have static pages, upload areas, wikis, whatever05:22
mdkewwill it be easy to script uploads of the html preview and status pages of our documents to that server?05:22
hno73yeah and MOTUs05:22
jsgotangcomdke: we can actually move our svn on linode05:23
hno73they're trying to make it one large bulk deal05:23
mdkeright05:23
hno73to get a better price05:23
mdkewhat is the timeframe on that?05:23
hno73a weekish?05:23
jsgotangcohopefully in july05:23
jsgotangcoi've talked to smurfix about it05:23
squinngood to hear05:23
mdkeyes good news05:23
hno73early in July, I'm sure05:23
squinnwill this take our previews off of mako's space then?05:24
squinnand move them onto our own subdomain?05:24
=== slomo [~slomo@p5487F444.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
jsgotangcothe loco teams have requested their linode requirements05:24
mdkedoes the same apply for help.ubuntu.com? for published docs on release?05:24
jsgotangcomdke: its possible05:24
hno73So, who has any box admin experience? :)05:24
mdkejsgotangco, i don't think we needs to worry abnout locoteams here05:24
jsgotangcomdke: we'll have root access on it05:24
squinnhno73, not I05:24
mdkehno73, you?05:24
hno73mdke: I've done it, but I'm still a cluts at it05:25
jsgotangcosame herre05:25
jsgotangcoi've deployed ubuntu servers, but cannot say i am an expert05:25
mdkeme neither05:25
hno73I can do it it if I have a good sidekick or two :)05:25
mdkei like henrik for the job :D05:25
jsgotangcoi can help henrik05:25
mdkeok i can try and help05:26
hno73jsgotangco: thanks05:26
mdkewhat is needed?05:26
jeffschi can help too, but am far from expert05:26
jsgotangcook let's pig out on PHP and JAVA on that server :D05:26
judaxhaha05:26
mdke?05:26
jsgotangcokidding05:26
mdkewe just need some basic stuff for those projects, then if you want to develop other projects, that's cool too05:26
jsgotangcook so docteam.u.c is on track05:27
hno73I know nothing about Java, PHP is ok05:27
jsgotangcomdke: yeah, that makes the linode stuff so flexible for us05:27
mdkecan't help.ubuntu.com be on the ubuntu webserver?05:27
mdke(support tab on the website)05:27
hno73mdke: I think it should be, yes05:27
mdkeyay05:27
mdkethis is the best meeting ever05:28
jsgotangcoyeah its frozen doc anyways05:28
mdkeyep05:28
hno73we can put stuff in a staging area on docteam.u.c and then pull it into help.u.c05:28
jsgotangcoalright, so we're sold on #5 then.05:28
hno73yepp05:28
mdke:)05:28
froudjsgotangco: you really want to move svn :-005:28
froudjsgotangco: I suggest against it05:29
squinnso lemme get this straight05:29
hno73froud: let's move to baz05:29
=== hno73 ducs
jsgotangcobaz05:29
=== jsgotangco hides
hno73duks even05:29
froudyes lets05:29
squinndocteam.u.c is kind of our "testing" area05:29
squinnand help.u.c is our 'finished' area05:29
hno73squinn: right05:29
jsgotangcosquinn: right05:29
froudjsgotangco: dontmove svn05:30
squinnokay great05:30
froudjsgotangco: it means everyone must redo kets etc05:30
frouds/kets/keys05:30
jsgotangcofroud: right, it was just mentioned05:30
hno73do we even need keybased auth on the linode system?05:30
froudno05:31
froudwe dont05:31
mdkeit would help to move svn too05:31
hno73but if we break it we get to keep both parts05:31
froudwhy05:31
mdkefroud, because the website we've talked about will be there05:31
hno73so we can admin our own commit rights05:31
mdkethat too05:32
froudhno73: all we need for starters is an svn checkout and build on the linode05:32
jsgotangcoi'm not in favor of moving svn right now, this needs planning05:32
mdkeobviously planning is needed05:32
hno73jsgotangco: agree05:32
squinni'm confused..05:32
frouddudes all we need for now is like what I have on lnix.net/~froud05:32
jsgotangcoactually, we shouldn't even plan on moving our svn, but instead migrate our svn to baz05:32
=== jsgotangco ducks
jeffschmaybe use baz on the linode machine, and gradually move docs over05:32
mdkeok we're done on this issue05:32
squinnbaz = bazaar?05:33
hno73jsgotangco: I agree, seriously05:33
froudI think we tend to bring in wiki and all that stuff an djust complicate what is really a simple matter05:33
mdkelet's move on or jsgotangco 's wife will kill him05:33
squinnseconded05:33
jsgotangcohaha05:33
jsgotangcook no svn movements05:33
hno73point #605:33
squinnso keep svn as-is?05:33
hno73jsgotangco: not yet anyway05:33
jsgotangcosquinn: yep...as is05:33
hno73let's review it in 4 weeks05:34
mdkenext issue05:34
squinnUDP Wiki Team.05:34
jsgotangcosquinn: but the road to baz is in the hoizon05:34
squinnand again, baz is bazaar, right?05:34
jsgotangcoWiki team05:34
jsgotangcosquinn: yep05:34
froudI say no baz go to baz-ng05:34
squinnah, cool, alright.05:34
mdkepls05:34
mdkeon topic!05:34
hno73froud: 4 weeks :)05:34
jsgotangcook the baz thing is a separate meeting05:34
squinnright.05:34
jsgotangco#6 wiki team05:34
squinnlet's get to Wiki Team05:34
hno73wiki team05:34
jsgotangcothis ws proposed way long beforre05:34
jsgotangcobut the team back then was so small05:35
=== froud steps out for a minute
mdkeok we have some volunteers for this now05:35
jsgotangcobut since we're growing, people have been talking about it again05:35
jeffschi'm all for wiki team, but let's get our own wiki pages in order first05:35
mdkejeffsch, that could be a good job for the team05:35
jsgotangcogood idea, clean up our own home first05:35
squinn+1 with that idea, jeffsch 05:35
jeffschi went ahead and rewrote DocumentationTeam05:36
mdkeok hno73, views?05:36
squinnI'd also help work with the WikiTeam after we cleanup.05:37
jsgotangcoi can't speak much on the wiki team since i'm not that much of a wiki person btw05:37
jsgotangco(im a mediawiki fan btw)05:37
hno73Cleaning the wiki is good, but we should watch other people's toes05:37
hno73docteam != wiki05:37
hno73But we can go out in front with examples of good practice05:38
jsgotangcowho has sysop priv on the moin wiki atm?05:38
jsgotangcohmm does moin have sysop btw05:38
jeffschhno73: yes05:38
hno73jsgotangco: in what sense?05:38
jsgotangcohno73: like in mediawiki sysop account05:39
hno73elmo admins the server and I look after themes and such05:39
hno73jsgotangco: hm, yeah I need to set one up 05:39
jsgotangco(not really that familiar with moin except i like its table syntax)05:39
hno73so that will be me then05:39
mdkewhat I had in mind was a group of people to do specific jobs (like fix the icons) and generally edit the wiki to keep it tidy05:39
squinnjsgotangco, i'm a mediawiki fan too05:39
jdubjsgotangco: only if you set up and use ACLs and so on05:39
mdkegrrr05:40
mdkeon topic! squinn, jsgotangco, no need to talk about mediawiki05:40
jsgotangcojdub: hey, welcome05:40
hno73jdub: exxactly05:40
squinnahh, sorry.05:40
hno73we need to set up some people with ACL admin right05:40
mdkehow come?05:40
hno73there are none ATM, AFAIK05:40
jsgotangcoi'd happily vote mdke for that05:41
mdkeis there a need for them?05:41
squinnacl = Access control list?05:41
hno73mdke: I think it might be good to restrict deleting and reverting, at least on some pages05:41
jsgotangcomdke: you can lock pages for one05:41
hno73squinn: yes05:41
squinnok05:41
mdkehno73, i agree that deleting could be locked down yeah05:42
hno73jsgotangco: which is a bit drastic05:42
jsgotangcomdke: how big do you think a wiki team should be?05:42
squinnbut protecting pages by keeping them as is may be necessary05:42
hno73and once you enable admin, then that has to be locked down05:42
mdkejsgotangco, if we're just talking about editing and cleaning, i think it can be as big as possible05:42
jsgotangcoto be honest, i can't connect docteam work right now with wiki work05:42
hno73squinn: what do you mean?05:43
mdkejsgotangco, if we're talking about access levels, I have no idea05:43
mdkesquinn, its a wiki dude05:43
=== froud is not involved with wiki, so excuses himself
mdkeok bye froud, thanks05:43
squinnsorry, i'm just trying to relate from what i know from wikipedia to ubuntu's wiki05:43
=== froud [~froud@ndn-165-143-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation]
jsgotangcoi think a good start for the wiki team is to have a best practices page for one05:44
squinni know there's significant differences, but i'm trying to see similarities05:44
mdkesquinn, no need to close pages, otherwise it wouldn't be a wiki05:44
hno73we have less flamers and sockpuppets here :)05:44
hno73so far :)05:44
squinnoh so true, hno73 05:44
squinni know.05:44
hno73OK, but back to the gardening aspect05:44
mdkeok lets get back to the idea of a team05:44
jsgotangcook05:44
jsgotangcogo on05:44
mdkehno73, shoot05:45
hno73should they have some goals, or style guide?05:45
mdkei don't know, the reason I thought of them was just for specific jobs, like tidy up categories and fix icons05:46
jsgotangcohow about making wiki template>05:46
jsgotangcomoin is incredibly good on templates05:46
hno731. removing extra headings 2. fixing broken icons 3. moving chatter to /talk pages05:46
mdkeyes05:46
mdkeand the pages need more linking05:46
hno73ok05:47
hno73TOC pages05:47
mdkeyep05:47
jsgotangcook i think this can be elaborated on the list05:47
hno73or TOCs in long pages even05:47
mdkehno73, would you be prepared to head up the team?05:47
jsgotangcobut so far, a wiki team has been favored05:47
mdkeif a head is needed05:47
mdkevolunteers so far are myself, phillip cain and robitaille05:48
hno73mdke: I'm reluctant to dive too much into the content as such05:48
mdkecontent?05:48
hno73yeah, you guys are much better at this stuff05:48
jsgotangcomdke: i suggest you start up the team with no leader atm but with a goal that the members adopt05:48
mdkecontent of what?05:48
hno73mdke: as in the stuff stored in the wiki (content in the data sense)05:49
jsgotangcothat way, this subproject can move05:49
hno73as opposed to the wiki code05:49
mdkehno73, oh i don't think that editing the content of docs would be up to this team05:49
mdkethat is for everyone :D05:49
jsgotangcowiki janitors?05:49
hno73I'm happy to take feature requests for structural wiki improvements though05:49
hno73here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/wiki/FeatureRequests05:50
jsgotangcoalright05:50
mdkeokies05:50
jsgotangcoim about to crash can we move this on the list05:50
mdkehno73, you have to explain to me sometime what you have in mind for subpages05:50
mdkejsgotangco, o05:50
mdkek05:50
hno73ok, ask me tomorrow :)05:50
jsgotangcothe wiki team is a great idea btw,05:51
mdkehno73, what time are you around?05:51
jsgotangcoi would suggest to move with it even if therre is no clear goal/vision for this team05:51
jsgotangcoyet05:51
hno73mdke: from 9 (depending on traffic) til 5-605:51
hno73so, all day05:51
mdkejsgotangco, cool, thanks05:52
jsgotangcook....05:52
hno73jsgotangco: agree05:52
jsgotangcohmmm yeah, the other stuff to follow up05:52
jsgotangcojdub is here maybe we can bug him05:52
squinnyeah, again, i'd help you guys out on a clean-up status05:52
squinnas a member of the team or not05:52
jsgotangcoupstream docs....05:52
mdkecool thanks squinn 05:53
jsgotangcojdub: around?05:53
jdubyeah05:53
jsgotangcojdub: right, on the upstream docs thing...you said a while back you were going to send an email on the list...05:54
jsgotangcoJeff (jdub) proposed that more can be done to harness the documentation coming from upstream in the source packages. He said the level of technical expertise necessary to do this would not be too high. Mark agreed, stating that it was important to exploit the low hanging fruit ;) Jeff agreed to follow this up on the mailing list to set out his proposals. Although he will not be able to head up the project due to time constraint05:54
jdubmmm, not exclusively about that though; i just haven't had time to finish and send it05:54
mdkethe elusive email!05:55
jdubwell, there's two sides to it05:55
mdkeits attaining mythical status now05:55
mdke:)05:55
jdubthere's documentation already in the distro05:55
jduband working with upstream documentation (modifications)05:55
jsgotangcodocumentation in distro meaning ubuntu-specific docs05:56
jdubno, quite the opposite05:56
mdkepackaged docs from upstream05:56
jdubthe documentation that comes in all the packages in the distro05:56
jsgotangcooh ok05:56
jsgotangcowhat can be our first steps into these territories?05:57
jdubso, what can i help with here?05:57
jdubah05:57
mdkewe have absolutely no idea how to use these docs05:58
jdubok, so i think the second point - modifying upstream docs - is a medium term goal we can address fuerhter down the track when we have elite soyuz/baz love05:58
jdubbut it's the first that's really interesting right now05:58
jdubthere is an *enormous* amount of documentation already in ubuntu05:59
jdubit's just hidden away05:59
jsgotangcohmmm this would probably need some skills05:59
mdkejdub, that is what you said before, and its obviously true, but we are waiting to find out what we can do with it05:59
jdubwe made a very cheap improvement early on, but registering debian docs with scrollkeeper05:59
jdubbut that was a no-analysis easy fix :)06:00
jsgotangcook what can we do in this area then06:00
jsgotangcothis would obviously need some packaging skills06:00
jdubnot really06:00
jdubthe first step is looking for what we have already06:00
jduband that's easy - poking around in packages to see what's there, and noting it down somehow06:01
jdubto a certain extent, we can automate this06:01
jdubmost docs will turn up in /usr/share/doc06:01
jsgotangcoyeah i've dug it some time ago06:01
jsgotangcowhen i was investigating the scrollkeeper actions06:01
jdubso we could check the contents of every package for files under /usr/share/doc - that's pretty cheap06:02
jdubconcentrate on main for the time being, so we can have solid impact and a small set to learn from06:02
jsgotangcojdub, how about the outdated gnome docs06:02
jdubin what regard?06:03
jsgotangcowell from what i understand on the first issue, is that its all about putting those docs altogether and making a sense of it on the viewer06:04
jdub1. finding existing documentation06:04
jdub2. documenting what we find06:04
jdub3. ensure it's registered with existing systems06:04
jdub4. start looking upstream to see if we can integrate better (by shipping docbook, translating source documentation formats, etc)06:05
jdub(4) is going to get interesting; we could make a big impact on upstream doing that :)06:05
jsgotangcohmm this is something i wanted to do before06:06
jsgotangcook at least we now know what needs to be done06:06
mdkei don't06:07
jdubso what was the q about gnome docs?06:07
mdke3. is the one we don't know how to do06:07
jsgotangcooh, 3. is pretty easy to figure out06:07
mdkeok06:07
jdubmdke: well, it's pretty simple with scrollkeeper, if we do it that way; but the bulk of the work is going to be finding and documenting where the docs are06:08
mdkeok06:08
jduband what we can do with them06:08
jsgotangco2. is the bulk of work actually06:08
jdublike, we'll deal with developer docs differently06:08
jdub(for instance, our changes to python packages to include devhelp files)06:08
jdublooking at the package list for -doc packages is a cheap'n'easy start ;)06:09
jsgotangcoyeah06:09
jsgotangcowell on my part, at least i know the priorities (of sort)06:09
jdubstarting with main only will avoid being overwhelmed06:09
jsgotangcojdub: we'll just expect your email when you finish it :)06:09
jsgotangcobut the 4 points is a good start (on main)06:10
jdubyeah... :|06:10
jsgotangcojdub: thanks, anything more to add, i appreciate you being here despite your time06:10
jdubjsgotangco: maybe start with a few example packages to get a workflow going06:10
jsgotangcoare you in sydney anways06:10
jdubyeah, it's 2am06:10
jsgotangcoyeah i appreaciate it06:10
jsgotangcoOK, we've pretty much covered everything in the Agenda06:11
jsgotangcoNot bad for a 1st regular meeting i'd say06:11
jsgotangcowe've covered a lot06:11
jsgotangcohmmm who's still in here anyway06:11
judax:)06:11
mdkestill around06:11
=== jeffsch zzzzzzzzz
jsgotangcoAnything else to discuss?06:12
mdkethanks for staying around jdub06:12
=== hno73 is here
jsgotangcook one morre thing06:12
jsgotangcowe'll do this meeting bi-weekly06:12
jsgotangcoso next meeting in 2 weeks!06:12
mdkecough06:12
mdkebiweekly no06:12
jsgotangcowhy?06:12
mdkedoesn't that mean twice a week?06:12
jsgotangcoNO06:13
mdkemy bad ;)06:13
jsgotangcoit means every two weeks06:13
mdkeok cool06:13
judaxbiweekly sounds good06:13
mdkethis was a great meeting06:13
jsgotangcook how about the time06:13
jsgotangcoi like 14UTC and 22UTC06:13
jdub*cough* the time sucks! *cough* ;-)   [ignore me] 06:14
jsgotangcowe'll rotate in them06:14
mdkei'm easy06:14
hno73I prefer 14 UTC, but 22 UTC can work06:14
judaxboth of those are good for me06:14
jsgotangcogreat06:14
jsgotangcoalright, anything more06:15
jsgotangcohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda will be our agenda page from now on06:15
jsgotangcoNext meeting in 2 weeks, 22UTC06:15
judaxtake care all06:16
jsgotangcoMeeting minutes will be sent to the list in a few hours after i wake up06:16
mdkeawesome meeting guys06:16
jsgotangcogreat06:16
mdkerockin06:16
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jeffschexcellent06:16
jsgotangcook im gonna crash06:16
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jeffschcya06:16
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jsgotangcook bye06:17
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hno73bye06:17
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